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» EgyptSearch Forums » Deshret » Sub-Saharan origin of Almoravids confirmed (Page 4)

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Author Topic: Sub-Saharan origin of Almoravids confirmed
KING
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alTakruri

Never leave these forums.

Your needed. And also Your research is integral to these forums.

Peace

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alTakruri
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King

Once there was mutual scholarship and the goal of
promoting African studies on the old EgyptSeach
Ancient Egypt and Egyptology
forum.

Now sadly, since the forum split, we just have two
opinionated chat lists not worth the time and effort
of posting up original research and analysis that
would just get buried under tons of conversation
based on nothing but emotion and, as revealed
very recently, the spewing of stereotyping, prejudice,
and bias even by self-labeled blacks against Maghrebis
and Arabs sparked by personal dialog yet geared at whole
ethnies.

I don't need all that immature hateful nonsense in
my African studies and don't want to be so associated
It's no better that the Euro, Maghrebi, and Arab trolls
everybody complains about yet they indulge it themselves.

What effect does a vial of oil have in a cesspool?
Does it sweeten it or come out smelling like ****?
I'm not going anywhere but there's not much for me
to do here in the current reeking "ambiance" of this
forum which is now beginning to spill over into the
Egyptology forum which was supposeed to be the
moderated refuge for those of us who were serious
about our Africana.

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markellion
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I don't understand why people seem to be ignoring the metallurgy thing. This seems extremely important and a big part in understanding the overall history

quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
It doesn't matter so much what one thinks as
what the facts are on the ground. In Africa,
for complex reasons, there are despised
endogenous smith "castes."

They have a negative mystique surrounding them
because of the nature of transforming ore into
metal by fire and then hammering out finished
products.

Unfortunately the genral African concept of
metallurgy, whether stigmatized or lauded,
is the main reason others outstripped Africa
in metals technology in terms of sheer output.


quote:
Originally posted by markellion:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

The Almoravids were mainly Aulamidden (Lamtuna) Tuareg now centered in Niger. Lower caste Tuareg smiths to whom much of the craftmanship of the Moors was probably due are of Nilo-Saharan origin related to Teda Tibbu-Krit or Ikaradan groups.

I think this might have allot to do with European and especially French colonialism. I think the smith skills would give people an edge and thus make them more dominant not the other way around.


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alTakruri
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Why don't we try dealing in facts instead of theories.

Show me in the histories of Europe or Asia where
craftsmen and "people with the knowledge" "have
an edge" over the people of the government and
their militants thus forcing them into reliance.

quote:
Originally posted by markellion:


But when talking about the craftsmanship of the "Moors"
they would have to be reliant on the people with the
relevant knowledge. The people with the knowledge would
then in fact have an edge and this would be trading
partners in Bilad al-Sudan


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markellion
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It fits with the general history of the dependence on "Sudanese" empires
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alTakruri
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You fail to honor my request
quote:
Why don't we try dealing in facts instead of theories.

Show me in the histories of Europe or Asia where
craftsmen and "people with the knowledge" "have
an edge" over the people of the government and
their militants thus forcing them into reliance.

and instead offer the weak talk of opinionated
supposition ruining there forums.

Nowhere do I know craftsmen and inteligentsia
to run the show and neither do you. They are
everywhere subservient to and perform the will
of the rulership under pain of their militants
(guards/police/army/etc.)

If not, please relieve me of my ignorance by
supplying examples to the contrary, thank you.

quote:
Originally posted by markellion:
It fits with the general history of the dependence on "Sudanese" empires


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markellion
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Will yes I'm just making theories but my goal is to look into new avenues to research.

First I'm not saying the craftsmen were dominating but the people like the Zaghawa would have an edge because they could provide things that others couldn't provide for themselves. If you upset me you will no longer have access to the products my blacksmiths produce or I will not allow my blacksmiths in your territories

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alTakruri
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More supposition. No historical fact. No evidence
from any history anywhere on earth.

This is how it goes. The rulers direct the
craftsmen: Make me some product and get
paid or refuse to produce and get killed.
The craftsmen not being stupid or relying
on unproven theories readily comply.

Endogamous "castes" of iron workers were scattered
throughout the Sahara right in the vicinity of those
demanding their labor. It's how they survived.

Please go study African history instead of presenting
fantasy in place of hypothesis derived from research.


Do you even know who the Zaghawa are and their place
in the history of Kanem? Do you think Zaghawa were
all and only blacksmiths? I don't understand and your
game is bursting my brain. I refuse to play anymore.

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markellion
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Possibly I'm misinformed. Note that I'm not talking about blacksmiths running things I'm talking about the rulers who directed the blacksmiths would have an advantage

http://thenile.phpbb-host.com/phpbb/ftopic2396.php

quote:
H. Lhote, to whom one must render hommage, observed that:

1. the bellows made of pottery is original and exclusive to the Sudan

2. that the Berbers in the Sahara are not metallurgists: they mistrusted iron-working (the 'Enaden' are mostly repairmen)

3. no traces of blast furnaces have been found in the Sahara even though iron is present but the nearby peoples do not on their own know how to work iron;

4. there are numerous traces of blast furnaces in the Sudanese zone up to the 16th northern parallel [4]

5. the northern limits to finding these blast furnaces are found up to approximately the southern reaches of the BRZL linguistic family that uses a word of semitic origin for iron.


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markellion
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I first thought about this dependence thing when reading about the importance of African navigators

The quote about the king of Zafun talks specifically about dependence on him on matters of government and about how he was more knowledgeable on matters of kingship so perhaps they were dependent on "Sudanese" kings in earlier times too

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markellion
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Ok the metallurgy is just one thing but there are other crafts.

quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:


The Almoravids were mainly Aulamidden (Lamtuna) Tuareg now centered in Niger. Lower caste Tuareg smiths to whom much of the craftmanship of the Moors was probably due are of Nilo-Saharan origin related to Teda Tibbu-Krit or Ikaradan groups.

“The Negroland of the Arabs examined and explained” footnote at the bottom of page 72

http://books.google.com/books?id=380NAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA72#v=onepage&q=&f=false

quote:
there is a passage in Ibn Khaldun (fol. 89) which, with a little abridgment, is worth transcribing.—"After the fall of the Morabite dynasty, the tribes of the Molaththemun returned to the desert, and now occupy the countries which they originally possessed in the vicinity of Negroland. But as we have already observed, the emigration of the Zenagah tribes was but partial: a few only of the Masfifah and Lumtunah obeyed the impulse, while the majority of the tribes remained behind, and keep in our days their old settlements in the Sahra, paying tribute to the Kings of Negroland, on whom they depend, and in whose armies they serve.

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markellion
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Seriously Moorish Spain is known for a time when people with all kinds of skills traveled and brought technology. A people that have certain skills and technologies have an advantage over people who don't. Thus the dependency described in the quote above

Imperialism

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/imperialism

1.
quote:
The policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations....

...imperialism

Acquisition by a government of other governments or territories, or of economic or cultural power over other nations or territories, often by force. Colonialism is a form of imperialism.


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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by markellion:
Seriously Moorish Spain is known for a time when people with all kinds of skills traveled and brought technology. A people that have certain skills and technologies have an advantage over people who don't. Thus the dependency described in the quote above

Imperialism

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/imperialism

1.
quote:
The policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations....

...imperialism

Acquisition by a government of other governments or territories, or of economic or cultural power over other nations or territories, often by force. Colonialism is a form of imperialism.


Moorish Spain would not have fell if it was simply a case of craftsmen. At the end of the day the military class and those who defend the "family jewels" along with the ruling elite are what determines the fate of the nation.

Likewise, imperialism is primarily defined by force of arms not by force of craftsmen. Name one empire that was not built on and maintained by military conquest and political domination.

There are none.

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markellion
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The situation can be compared to Japan and the advantage they have when it comes to world trade because of their technology

I've mentioned world trade and the "Sudanese" soldiers in places all over the Muslim world these are multiple things that come together

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markellion
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There are many accounts where "Sudanese" rulers were actively having communication with different people in the world and this wasn't just limited to the ruler of Mali and the Maqqari brothers that was just one example I gave. It is important to note the keen interest these rulers had on international events where they sought to turn things to their own advantage.
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AlTakruri

quote:
Though I am loathe to research and report here anymore due to the decline of scholarship on these forums you're a good guy Bru so here's for you.
Thanks Bru AL. I understand what you are saying the problem is no moderation.. self or otherwise but remember this your audiance goes waay beyond the folks who are posters...so take heart you and the older vets have inspired hundreds even thousands to go and make new discoveries in Africana for themselves and that includes one Jamaican called Anansi...respect..
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markellion
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And one thing, and this is of the highest importance and something that urgently needs to be incorporated into peoples' overall view of this history, is the long distance trade and contacts within Africa. This phenomenon of distant contacts is incompatible with the idea of Africans being passive. Ethnic groups are fluid as with the spread of ideas and everything. Muslim literature seemed to have been very ignorant about the bulk of the interior of Africa since Europeans for centuries were still trying to "open" the continent and most of the continent was unkown to Europeans despite the works of early geographers. I would think this would be strongly to the advantage of "Sudanese" people. What makes it more astonishng was that many "Sudanese" people were also part of the Muslim world
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Brada-Anansi
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Mark
quote:
Muslim literature seemed to have been very ignorant about the bulk of the interior of Africa since Europeans for centuries were still trying to "open" the continent and most of the continent was unkown to Europeans despite the works of early geographers.
Mark do you even read Arabic? do you have access to their materials,did you know that trade routes were sometimes a jealously guarded secret and people not of the the trading network were discouraged or sometimes killed? why don't you just ask one of the Arabic speaking brothers right here on E/S if they have materials at hand instead of making assumptions. Europeans were not part of the trade network so off-course the bulk of African interior was un-known to them...they were simply not invited.
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markellion
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Cooley actually believed that early Europeans were actually more informed about the geography than Ibn Batutta. Also note that "white men cannot penetrate" elsewhere he says that "white men" will be killed if they travel that far


See the information on the thread "African Christianity influence on Islam" about Sudanese domination over the Islamic world.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=002561

Concerning these trade routes

"The Negroland of the Arabs examined and explained" 1841

http://books.google.com/books?id=380NAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA93#v=onepage&q=&f=false

quote:
"From Muli (says Ibn Batutah) the river descends to Yufi (Nufi), one of the greatest kingdoms of Negroland, but to which white men cannot penetrate; and thence it flows to Nubia." It would appear, from this, that the superiority now enjoyed by the people of Nufi in arts and industry, was already acknowledged in the fourteenth century. It is manifest also that the system of the native geographers which converts the Chad da into a continuation of the Kowara, by which the waters of this great river are carried across Bornii to the Nile of Egypt, is of some antiquity. Ibn Batutah believed that the great river below Muli flowed some distance to the south or south-east before it turned eastwards to Nubia. In speaking of Kulwa (Kilwa, or Quiloa), on the eastern coast of Africa, he uses these words:—" A merchant there told me, that the town of Sofalah is half a month's journey from Kulwa, and one month from Yufi in the country of the Limiyin, and that gold is brought from Yufi to Sofalah."" The boldness here evinced in bringing together and joining in commerce countries far asunder, is constantly exhibited in the geographical speculations of an early or ill-informed age. Distances are then enlarged as expediency requires; hypothesis leaps over the vacant spaces, and forcibly stretches the known portions in the opposite sides of a continent till they meet in the centre. Illustrations of this truth may be found in all ages. During the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, Abyssinia, Congo, and Monomotapa were all supposed to meet together. One of the Jesuits resident in Abyssinia asserts, that salt was carried from that country to Tomboktu.1" The reasoning which led to this statement was, in its nature, exactly the same as that from which the Arabs inferred an intercourse between Sofalah and Yufi. It is not surprising, therefore, that Ibn Batutah, who had far less accurate means of ascertaining the true positions of the places visited by him than the Catholic missionaries, should believe that the remote interior, whence gold was brought to Sofalah, was occupied by the same nation who filled the interior viewed in the opposite direction from Mali. Erroneous as this kind of inference may be, it yet rests on ideas of direction so manifest and unambiguous as to be of material service in explaining an author's meaning. It is plain, then, that Ibn Batutah thought Yufi to lie between Mali and Sofalah, and that the Great River from Muli to Yufi flowed towards Sofalah, but beyond Yufi turned eastwards to Nubia.
On page 94 we see this footnote

quote:
152 In like manner the supposed Christian King named Ogane', of whom the early Portuguese navigators received intelligence at Benin, was at once assumed to be the King of Abyssinia. The fable of an intercourse between Abyssinia and Western Africa has been gravely repeated by a recent writer (M'Queen's Survey of Africa, p. 5). Fernandez de Enciso (Suma de Geografia, 1518) says, that in the Bight of Benin are the Blacks who trade with Libya and Meroe. Lalande (Memoires de Paris, 1795, p. 15) has collected with equal industry and credulity the stories of an overland commerce between the eastern and western coasts of Africa.

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markellion
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:
Originally posted by markellion:


Imperialism

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/imperialism

1.
quote:
The policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations....

...imperialism

Acquisition by a government of other governments or territories, or of economic or cultural power over other nations or territories, often by force. Colonialism is a form of imperialism.


At the end of the day the military class and those who defend the "family jewels" along with the ruling elite are what determines the fate of the nation.

Likewise, imperialism is primarily defined by force of arms not by force of craftsmen.

The dictionary said economic and cultural power. A look at everything I've said would strongly indicate that I believe economic hegemony or economic and cultural power were forces of imperialism and the dictionary happens to say the same thing. I believe that the quote from Cooloey above gives good evidence concerning forces of imperialism

These forces of imperialism would also be how I would explain the kind of domination showed in the thread bellow

"African Christianity influence on Islam"

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=002561

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markellion
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I already posted this but I'm going to post this again

"Trans-Saharan Trade and the West African Discovery of the Mediterranean World" by Pekka Masonen

http://www.smi.uib.no/paj/Masonen.html
quote:

The situation was perhaps similar to that in the early 19th century, when European explorers, who had penetrated the African interior in order to unveil her secrets, were amazed at how well the West Africans knew what was going on in the outside world. When Mungo Park arrived in Segu on the Niger in July 1796, being the first European in this city, he was told that the British and French were fighting in the Mediterranean. The news probably concerned the battles that took place after the treaty of Basle which was made in April 1795, when Park was in his way to Gambia. In 1824, Hugh Clapperton visited Kano, being again the first European in this city, and he was surprised by Muhammad Bello, the ruler of Sokoto caliphate, who asked him detailed questions concerning the British policy in India and the religious situation in Europe. In early 1871, Gustav Nachtigal, the famous German traveller who had left Tripoli in 1869 in order to explore Central Africa, was told in Bornu that a war had broke out between franse and nimse, meaning Frenchmen and Germans. Considering that the Franco-Prussian war began in July 1870, the news had reached Bornu very quickly.

Perhaps news of the great events in the medieval Mediterranean, like the fall of Acre in 1291 or the Turkish conquest of Constantinople in 1453, were heard in the capital of Mali as quickly. However, there are only few mentions in the contemporary Arabic sources concerning the transmission of news across the Sahara. We know, for example, that Mansa Musa of Mali sent a delagation to congratulate the Marinid Sultan Abu 'l-Hasan for the conquest of Tlemcen. Since Tlemcen had fallen to Marinids in April 1337, the news most probably arrived in Mali with the traders who had left Morocco in autumn, which was the usual season of departure for the caravans to the south. The Malian delegation was sent to Fez probably in the following summer, when the caravans returned to the north. Similarly, another Malian delegation was sent to congratulate Sultan Abu 'l-Hasan for the conquest of Constantine in 1349. The prompt action on part of the Malian rulers proves that they knew well the political geography of Northern Africa, being fully aware of the consequenses of the Marinid expansion to central Maghrib....

Similarly, it was another channel for West Africans to the outside world: in 1594 a Portuguese navigator reported that he had in Senegal met many blacks who were not only capable of speaking French but have even visited France. In was only during the age of imperialism that the encounter of West Africans with other civilisations turned definitely from controlled relationship to collision.


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-Just Call Me Jari-
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quote:
Originally posted by markellion:
I already posted this but I'm going to post this again

"Trans-Saharan Trade and the West African Discovery of the Mediterranean World" by Pekka Masonen

http://www.smi.uib.no/paj/Masonen.html
quote:

The situation was perhaps similar to that in the early 19th century, when European explorers, who had penetrated the African interior in order to unveil her secrets, were amazed at how well the West Africans knew what was going on in the outside world. When Mungo Park arrived in Segu on the Niger in July 1796, being the first European in this city, he was told that the British and French were fighting in the Mediterranean. The news probably concerned the battles that took place after the treaty of Basle which was made in April 1795, when Park was in his way to Gambia. In 1824, Hugh Clapperton visited Kano, being again the first European in this city, and he was surprised by Muhammad Bello, the ruler of Sokoto caliphate, who asked him detailed questions concerning the British policy in India and the religious situation in Europe. In early 1871, Gustav Nachtigal, the famous German traveller who had left Tripoli in 1869 in order to explore Central Africa, was told in Bornu that a war had broke out between franse and nimse, meaning Frenchmen and Germans. Considering that the Franco-Prussian war began in July 1870, the news had reached Bornu very quickly.

Perhaps news of the great events in the medieval Mediterranean, like the fall of Acre in 1291 or the Turkish conquest of Constantinople in 1453, were heard in the capital of Mali as quickly. However, there are only few mentions in the contemporary Arabic sources concerning the transmission of news across the Sahara. We know, for example, that Mansa Musa of Mali sent a delagation to congratulate the Marinid Sultan Abu 'l-Hasan for the conquest of Tlemcen. Since Tlemcen had fallen to Marinids in April 1337, the news most probably arrived in Mali with the traders who had left Morocco in autumn, which was the usual season of departure for the caravans to the south. The Malian delegation was sent to Fez probably in the following summer, when the caravans returned to the north. Similarly, another Malian delegation was sent to congratulate Sultan Abu 'l-Hasan for the conquest of Constantine in 1349. The prompt action on part of the Malian rulers proves that they knew well the political geography of Northern Africa, being fully aware of the consequenses of the Marinid expansion to central Maghrib....

Similarly, it was another channel for West Africans to the outside world: in 1594 a Portuguese navigator reported that he had in Senegal met many blacks who were not only capable of speaking French but have even visited France. In was only during the age of imperialism that the encounter of West Africans with other civilisations turned definitely from controlled relationship to collision.


Wow, Good Info Markellion!!
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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by markellion:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:
Originally posted by markellion:


Imperialism

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/imperialism

1.
quote:
The policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations....

...imperialism

Acquisition by a government of other governments or territories, or of economic or cultural power over other nations or territories, often by force. Colonialism is a form of imperialism.


At the end of the day the military class and those who defend the "family jewels" along with the ruling elite are what determines the fate of the nation.

Likewise, imperialism is primarily defined by force of arms not by force of craftsmen.

The dictionary said economic and cultural power. A look at everything I've said would strongly indicate that I believe economic hegemony or economic and cultural power were forces of imperialism and the dictionary happens to say the same thing. I believe that the quote from Cooloey above gives good evidence concerning forces of imperialism

These forces of imperialism would also be how I would explain the kind of domination showed in the thread bellow

"African Christianity influence on Islam"

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=002561

Markellion, you aren't really contradicting my point. Yes there is a cultural component to imperialism, but you cannot have imperialism without force of arms. The idea that the Islamic influence on Christianity was purely cultural and without conflict and force of arms is absurd. Likewise the suggestion that the Islamic influence on Europe and the African role in that was without force of arms is also absurd and unsupported.

That is my only point.

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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by markellion:
I already posted this but I'm going to post this again

"Trans-Saharan Trade and the West African Discovery of the Mediterranean World" by Pekka Masonen

http://www.smi.uib.no/paj/Masonen.html
quote:

The situation was perhaps similar to that in the early 19th century, when European explorers, who had penetrated the African interior in order to unveil her secrets, were amazed at how well the West Africans knew what was going on in the outside world. When Mungo Park arrived in Segu on the Niger in July 1796, being the first European in this city, he was told that the British and French were fighting in the Mediterranean. The news probably concerned the battles that took place after the treaty of Basle which was made in April 1795, when Park was in his way to Gambia. In 1824, Hugh Clapperton visited Kano, being again the first European in this city, and he was surprised by Muhammad Bello, the ruler of Sokoto caliphate, who asked him detailed questions concerning the British policy in India and the religious situation in Europe. In early 1871, Gustav Nachtigal, the famous German traveller who had left Tripoli in 1869 in order to explore Central Africa, was told in Bornu that a war had broke out between franse and nimse, meaning Frenchmen and Germans. Considering that the Franco-Prussian war began in July 1870, the news had reached Bornu very quickly.

Perhaps news of the great events in the medieval Mediterranean, like the fall of Acre in 1291 or the Turkish conquest of Constantinople in 1453, were heard in the capital of Mali as quickly. However, there are only few mentions in the contemporary Arabic sources concerning the transmission of news across the Sahara. We know, for example, that Mansa Musa of Mali sent a delagation to congratulate the Marinid Sultan Abu 'l-Hasan for the conquest of Tlemcen. Since Tlemcen had fallen to Marinids in April 1337, the news most probably arrived in Mali with the traders who had left Morocco in autumn, which was the usual season of departure for the caravans to the south. The Malian delegation was sent to Fez probably in the following summer, when the caravans returned to the north. Similarly, another Malian delegation was sent to congratulate Sultan Abu 'l-Hasan for the conquest of Constantine in 1349. The prompt action on part of the Malian rulers proves that they knew well the political geography of Northern Africa, being fully aware of the consequenses of the Marinid expansion to central Maghrib....

Similarly, it was another channel for West Africans to the outside world: in 1594 a Portuguese navigator reported that he had in Senegal met many blacks who were not only capable of speaking French but have even visited France. In was only during the age of imperialism that the encounter of West Africans with other civilisations turned definitely from controlled relationship to collision.


But, other than those who believe Africans to be dumb savages with no culture and connection to the outside world, why would this be shocking to those who know the truth about African history and culture? Africans were not isolated from the rest of the world. They never have been and the only ones propagating that nonsense are the liars from Europe who wanted to promote their own hegemony on the continent.

And after all, the earliest settlers and explorers across the Mediterranean were black Africans anyway. Therefore the idea that blacks first discovered this area only a thousand or so years ago is purely ridiculous to begin with. Likewise, trade routes between West Africa and the Mediterranean are much older than the 8th century as there are accounts of Phoenician and Carthaginian trade routes to the interior, along with trade with the Garamantes, Numidians and other African groups who traded with the interior.

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Brada-Anansi
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Mark, I am not disagreeing with the above after-all Mali and the Sudanic complex were no back water but Swahili business men were present at Zimbabwe at the time the Portuguese first got there and Ibn Batutta made mention of whitemen, he made no mention of Arabic speaking blackmen not going as they please..unless yo want to make the argument that Black Arabs or Black Arabic speakers don't exist.
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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by markellion:
And one thing, and this is of the highest importance and something that urgently needs to be incorporated into peoples' overall view of this history, is the long distance trade and contacts within Africa. This phenomenon of distant contacts is incompatible with the idea of Africans being passive. Ethnic groups are fluid as with the spread of ideas and everything. Muslim literature seemed to have been very ignorant about the bulk of the interior of Africa since Europeans for centuries were still trying to "open" the continent and most of the continent was unkown to Europeans despite the works of early geographers. I would think this would be strongly to the advantage of "Sudanese" people. What makes it more astonishng was that many "Sudanese" people were also part of the Muslim world

Who is this addressed to? Surely you don't pretend to be telling people on this forum who are knowledgeable something they didn't already know?

I mean the point of research is to do away with such misconceptions and in that regard provide light and insight into the actual history and culture of the people of the time.

Likewise, I don't understand the point signifying "Sudanese" people as if anyone should downplay the role of blacks in African history. Of course blacks would have an important role in African history. Who would even say otherwise other than retarded racist European scholars?

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markellion
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Will first off the "Western Sudan" had far reaching trading contacts throughout the "Sudan" the people of the north were more dependent on Trans-Saharan trade than the other way around. In this way the "Sudanese" had an advantage.

"The question of the Iron Age in Africa"

http://thenile.phpbb-host.com/phpbb/ftopic2396.php

quote:
H. Lhote, to whom one must render hommage, observed that:

1. the bellows made of pottery is original and exclusive to the Sudan

2. that the Berbers in the Sahara are not metallurgists: they mistrusted iron-working (the 'Enaden' are mostly repairmen)

3. no traces of blast furnaces have been found in the Sahara even though iron is present but the nearby peoples do not on their own know how to work iron;

4. there are numerous traces of blast furnaces in the Sudanese zone up to the 16th northern parallel [4]

5. the northern limits to finding these blast furnaces are found up to approximately the southern reaches of the BRZL linguistic family that uses a word of semitic origin for iron...

...The greatest black Empires, from the most ancient (Ghana) to the most recent (Songhai), Sahelian or Sudanese were postioned mostly in the Sahara, many large regions of which were directly administered by black governers [8].


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markellion
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quote:
Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Mark, I am not disagreeing with the above after-all Mali and the Sudanic complex were no back water but Swahili business men were present at Zimbabwe at the time the Portuguese first got there and Ibn Batutta made mention of whitemen, he made no mention of Arabic speaking blackmen not going as they please..unless yo want to make the argument that Black Arabs or Black Arabic speakers don't exist.

If you read the way "white men" are sometimes treated for example Ibn Batutta thought he was being disrespected for being a "white man". The trade was to the advantage of the "Sudanese" as the bellow shows the Arabs were restricted to a zone of special status

“Medieval Christian Nubia and the Islamic World: A Reconsideration of the Baqt Treaty” by Jay Spaulding

http://www.jstor.org/pss/221175

page 589 of the journal (the actual article isn’t that many pages).

quote:
758, when the new Abbasid governor of Egypt wrote to the Makurian monarch: “[Here] no obstacle is placed between your merchants and what they want – [they are] safe and contented wherever they go in our land. You, however… behave otherwise… nore are our merchants safe with you.”
On the next page Spaulding says that over time the “Nubians” (including states other than Makuria) gradually allowed northern merchants certain rights and some established places specifically for foreigners. This is why he refers to a “northern zone of special status” bellow

Page 590 we also learn some about “Nubian” merchants

quote:
Meanwhile some Nubian subjects themselves, especially from the northern zone of special status, had also become private merchants and had begun to conduct their own commercial ventures northward into Egypt. The Nubian king attempted to maintain his hold over subjects living abroad, and to profit from their private commerce, by negotiating an arrangement according to when a royal Makurian agent was authorized to reside and to travel within the Islamic caliphate in order to collect taxes from the Nubians living abroad.

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markellion
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:
Originally posted by markellion:
The dictionary said economic and cultural power. A look at everything I've said would strongly indicate that I believe economic hegemony or economic and cultural power were forces of imperialism and the dictionary happens to say the same thing. I believe that the quote from Cooloey above gives good evidence concerning forces of imperialism

These forces of imperialism would also be how I would explain the kind of domination showed in the thread bellow

"African Christianity influence on Islam"

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=002561

Markellion, you aren't really contradicting my point. Yes there is a cultural component to imperialism, but you cannot have imperialism without force of arms. The idea that the Islamic influence on Christianity was purely cultural and without conflict and force of arms is absurd. Likewise the suggestion that the Islamic influence on Europe and the African role in that was without force of arms is also absurd and unsupported.

That is my only point.

I didn't say just cultural imperialism I talked about economic imperialism. If there is anything wrong with what I said please point it out

quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
But, other than those who believe Africans to be dumb savages with no culture and connection to the outside world, why would this be shocking to those who know the truth about African history and culture? Africans were not isolated from the rest of the world. They never have been and the only ones propagating that nonsense are the liars from Europe who wanted to promote their own hegemony on the continent.

It is significant because things were more one sided to the advantage of the "Sudanese"

"Trans-Saharan Trade and the West African Discovery of the Mediterranean World"

http://www.smi.uib.no/paj/Masonen.html

quote:


In the early 13th century, the governor of Sijilmasa, which was the most important terminus of the trans-Saharan caravan routes in southern Morocco, sent a following letter to the king of Ghana who was by then the most powerful ruler in Western Africa:

We are neighbours in benevolence even if we differ in religion; we agree on right conduct and are one in leniency towards our subjects. It goes without saying that justice is an essential quality of kings in conducting sound policy; tyranny is the preoccupation of ignorant and evil minds. We have heard about the imprisonment of poor traders and their being prevented from going freely about their business. The coming to and fro of merchants to a country is of benefit to its inhabitants and a help to keeping it populous. If we wished we would imprison the people of that region who happen to be in our territory but we do not think it right to do that. We ought not to "forbid immorality while practising it ourselves". Peace be upon you.

Considering the contents of this letter, there is no doubt who had the actual control over the trade in the south.


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markellion
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Concerning soldiers Spaulding talks about how the fact that most slaves were women can't be reconciled with the idea of all these male slave soldiers. It does give reason to believe that these soldiers were free people that enlisted into these armies. This gave the strength to Muslim armies to spread their conquests

“Medieval Christian Nubia and the Islamic World: A Reconsideration of the Baqt Treaty” by Jay Spaulding

http://www.jstor.org/pss/221175

Page 593

quote:
No figures whatsoever exist concerning the magnitude of this trade at any period; yet without such data, no remotely plausible assessment of total slave exports is possible. Even in the absence of absolute numbers, however, it is possible to challenge the assertion by Cliometricians that most slaves exported from the Northeast Africa to the Islamic Orient were female, for the claim is difficult to reconcile with a source literature from medieval Egypt in which corps of black male military slaves are conspicuous while Africa females are not. The actual primary evidence on the question is perhaps instructive; the one known baqt shipment in the form of slaves by an independent Makurian monarch comprised one male and one female.

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markellion
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I almost forgot the quote from Ibn Battuta about Yufi and trade with Swahili some websites think he was combining Great Zimbabwe and Ife together.
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Brada-Anansi
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Whatever the mistakes Ibn Battuta may have made. it is still a fact that Swahili buesiness men were present at Zimbabwe when the Portuguese arrived.
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markellion
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Yes that was the point I was emphasizing the ignorance of outsiders about the geography of Africa plus that of the long distance trade. Those Swahili were just Bantus like other Bantus. They were part of the "Sudan"

Concerning Bantu languages:

On Bantu languages "The Uganda protectorate" By Harry Hamilton Johnston 1904

http://books.google.com/books?id=vyAUAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA890#v=onepage&q=&f=false

quote:
The Bantu languages, in fact, are rather more closely related one to the other—even in their extremest forms—than are the Aryan languages. This is so much the case that a native of Zanzibar can very soon make himself understood on the Congo, while a man of the Cameroons would not be long before he grasped the vocabulary of the Zulu. This interesting fact must play a certain part in the political development of Africa south of the fifth degree of north latitude. The rapidity with which the Kiswahili tongue of Zanzibar—a very convenient, simple, and expressive form of Bantu speech— has spread far and wide over East Central Africa, and has even gained a footing on the Congo, hints at the possibility of the Bantu Negroes at some future time adopting a universal Bantu language for inter-communication.
Perry Noble read 160-162 Bantu languages to 164 African languages in general


http://books.google.com/books?id=StYYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA162&dq=#v=onepage&q=&f=false


quote:
The beauty, plastic power and richness of Bantu languages delight and amaze all. They possess almost limitless flexibility, pliancy and softness. Their grammatical principles are founded on the most philosophical and systematic basis. Their vocabularies are susceptible of infinite expansion. They can express even delicate shades of thought and feeling. Perhaps no other languages are capable of greater definiteness and precision. Grout doubts whether Zulu — the purest type of a Bantu dialect, the lordly language of the south, the speech of a conquering and superior race — is surpassed in forming derivatives by German or Greek. Livingstone characterized as witnesses to the poverty of their own attainments men who complain of the poverty of Bantu languages. Bentley, after referring to the flexibility, fulness, subtlety of idea and nicety of expression in Kongoan, accredits this wealth of forms and ideas to the Bantu family in bulk. The wide sway of these qualities points out their immense practical importance to civilization. Three languages may be taken as the English tongue of their respective spheres. Zulu stretches from Natal to Nyasa, Swahili from Zanzibar welNnigh across equatorial Africa, and Mbundu (Ngolan) from Portuguese West Africa far eastward. In French Kongo the Fan (Mpangwe) and in Belgian Kongo below Livingstone Falls the Kongoan are strong developing factors. But Zulu, Swahili and Mbundu form representative and standard languages for the south, the east, the west
"Portuguese Conceptual Categories and the "Other" Encounter on the Swahili Coast" by Jeremy, Prestholdt

quote:


Bellow notes on page 18 of article

....In terms of language, Manuel de Faria e Sousa noted that Arabic, for example, was not widely spoken between Kirimba and Sofala: “the language of those people cannot be harsh, being mostly compounded of the soft letters 1 and m” (Theal, 1898(1):22). The Portuguese generally described Arabic dialects as “harsh,” while Swahili, or the “language of the coast of Melinde,” was described as “soft”. M. de Figueroa described Swahili as “clearer than Arabic” (Figueroa, 1967:62). By the seventeenth century, Portuguese accounts made strong distinctions between ‘mouros da costa’ (Swahili) and‘mouros da Arabia’ (Omanis or Yemenis). See, for example, “Carta de Março de 1622” (Livros dos Monções: Liv. 16, fol. 411), Leaé (c. 1696), and n.a., Relação da perda e restauração de Mombaça(c.1698). Portuguese narrators invariably described ‘mouros da Arabia’ in scathing terms, especially after the Portuguese loss of Muscat, while ‘mouros da costa’ were treated in a more even-handed fashion.


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markellion
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Glory of the Blacks over the Whites

quote:
The Zanj also say : We also have philosophers from among us as well as theologians and we have fine manners....
This talks about Kilwa having relations with Timbuktu. BBC website go to the program on

9. The Kingdoms of Mali and Songhay

listen to 23:25-23:50 it talks about Kilwa

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/africa/features/storyofafrica/index_section16.shtml

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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by markellion:
Will first off the "Western Sudan" had far reaching trading contacts throughout the "Sudan" the people of the north were more dependent on Trans-Saharan trade than the other way around. In this way the "Sudanese" had an advantage.

"The question of the Iron Age in Africa"

http://thenile.phpbb-host.com/phpbb/ftopic2396.php

quote:
H. Lhote, to whom one must render hommage, observed that:

1. the bellows made of pottery is original and exclusive to the Sudan

2. that the Berbers in the Sahara are not metallurgists: they mistrusted iron-working (the 'Enaden' are mostly repairmen)

3. no traces of blast furnaces have been found in the Sahara even though iron is present but the nearby peoples do not on their own know how to work iron;

4. there are numerous traces of blast furnaces in the Sudanese zone up to the 16th northern parallel [4]

5. the northern limits to finding these blast furnaces are found up to approximately the southern reaches of the BRZL linguistic family that uses a word of semitic origin for iron...

...The greatest black Empires, from the most ancient (Ghana) to the most recent (Songhai), Sahelian or Sudanese were postioned mostly in the Sahara, many large regions of which were directly administered by black governers [8].


How about there has always been trade within and across Africa throughout history and also including non Africans at various times.

Again, only if you are someone just starting to understand African history does that quote come across as anything other than something that should already be painfully obvious.

The point being that trade in Africa goes back 100,000 years or more and over that time there have been hundreds of cultures, languages, artifacts, trade routes and other details that can and should be researched to some degree of specifics without relying on little small paragraphs which really say absolutely nothing about the extent of such trade over time and in various places.

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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by markellion:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:
Originally posted by markellion:
The dictionary said economic and cultural power. A look at everything I've said would strongly indicate that I believe economic hegemony or economic and cultural power were forces of imperialism and the dictionary happens to say the same thing. I believe that the quote from Cooloey above gives good evidence concerning forces of imperialism

These forces of imperialism would also be how I would explain the kind of domination showed in the thread bellow

"African Christianity influence on Islam"

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=002561

Markellion, you aren't really contradicting my point. Yes there is a cultural component to imperialism, but you cannot have imperialism without force of arms. The idea that the Islamic influence on Christianity was purely cultural and without conflict and force of arms is absurd. Likewise the suggestion that the Islamic influence on Europe and the African role in that was without force of arms is also absurd and unsupported.

That is my only point.

I didn't say just cultural imperialism I talked about economic imperialism. If there is anything wrong with what I said please point it out

quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
But, other than those who believe Africans to be dumb savages with no culture and connection to the outside world, why would this be shocking to those who know the truth about African history and culture? Africans were not isolated from the rest of the world. They never have been and the only ones propagating that nonsense are the liars from Europe who wanted to promote their own hegemony on the continent.

It is significant because things were more one sided to the advantage of the "Sudanese"

"Trans-Saharan Trade and the West African Discovery of the Mediterranean World"

http://www.smi.uib.no/paj/Masonen.html

quote:


In the early 13th century, the governor of Sijilmasa, which was the most important terminus of the trans-Saharan caravan routes in southern Morocco, sent a following letter to the king of Ghana who was by then the most powerful ruler in Western Africa:

We are neighbours in benevolence even if we differ in religion; we agree on right conduct and are one in leniency towards our subjects. It goes without saying that justice is an essential quality of kings in conducting sound policy; tyranny is the preoccupation of ignorant and evil minds. We have heard about the imprisonment of poor traders and their being prevented from going freely about their business. The coming to and fro of merchants to a country is of benefit to its inhabitants and a help to keeping it populous. If we wished we would imprison the people of that region who happen to be in our territory but we do not think it right to do that. We ought not to "forbid immorality while practising it ourselves". Peace be upon you.

Considering the contents of this letter, there is no doubt who had the actual control over the trade in the south.


And none of that really addresses the core issue of the force of arms as the basis of that imperialism. Without force of arms culture by itself is not imperialistic, as other people have a choice as to whether or not to adopt particular cultural or economic practices. Specifically, the cultural and economic influence of Africans over the Sahara and into Islamic Spain was backed by force of arms, which as you keep posting was due to the respect and reverence had for the power of some of the African leaders and their military might.
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markellion
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In 1980 Japan could smelt a ton of steel at 1/3 less cost than United States companies giving them an advantage. Do you see how the this ties in here concerning the quote about iron working
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I have actually mentioned soldiers allot but I don't have much information that I can post here. From what I've read people from places like Ethiopia were elite soldiers in the Arab world since before Islam. This continued on into the era of Muslim conquests

quote:
Originally posted by markellion:
Concerning soldiers Spaulding talks about how the fact that most slaves were women can't be reconciled with the idea of all these male slave soldiers. It does give reason to believe that these soldiers were free people that enlisted into these armies. This gave the strength to Muslim armies to spread their conquests

“Medieval Christian Nubia and the Islamic World: A Reconsideration of the Baqt Treaty” by Jay Spaulding

http://www.jstor.org/pss/221175

Page 593

quote:
No figures whatsoever exist concerning the magnitude of this trade at any period; yet without such data, no remotely plausible assessment of total slave exports is possible. Even in the absence of absolute numbers, however, it is possible to challenge the assertion by Cliometricians that most slaves exported from the Northeast Africa to the Islamic Orient were female, for the claim is difficult to reconcile with a source literature from medieval Egypt in which corps of black male military slaves are conspicuous while Africa females are not. The actual primary evidence on the question is perhaps instructive; the one known baqt shipment in the form of slaves by an independent Makurian monarch comprised one male and one female.



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markellion
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In this thread I see things as being three kinds of imperialism

"African Christianity influence on Islam"

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=002561

quote:
Originally posted by markellion:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/imperialism

quote:
Cultural Dictionary

imperialism

Acquisition by a government of other governments or territories, or of economic or cultural power over other nations or territories, often by force. Colonialism is a form of imperialism.

1.Cultural/Religious

2. Economic

3. Military intimidation


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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by markellion:
Yes that was the point I was emphasizing the ignorance of outsiders about the geography of Africa plus that of the long distance trade. Those Swahili were just Bantus like other Bantus. They were part of the "Sudan"

Concerning Bantu languages:

On Bantu languages "The Uganda protectorate" By Harry Hamilton Johnston 1904

http://books.google.com/books?id=vyAUAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA890#v=onepage&q=&f=false

quote:
The Bantu languages, in fact, are rather more closely related one to the other—even in their extremest forms—than are the Aryan languages. This is so much the case that a native of Zanzibar can very soon make himself understood on the Congo, while a man of the Cameroons would not be long before he grasped the vocabulary of the Zulu. This interesting fact must play a certain part in the political development of Africa south of the fifth degree of north latitude. The rapidity with which the Kiswahili tongue of Zanzibar—a very convenient, simple, and expressive form of Bantu speech— has spread far and wide over East Central Africa, and has even gained a footing on the Congo, hints at the possibility of the Bantu Negroes at some future time adopting a universal Bantu language for inter-communication.
Perry Noble read 160-162 Bantu languages to 164 African languages in general


http://books.google.com/books?id=StYYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA162&dq=#v=onepage&q=&f=false


quote:
The beauty, plastic power and richness of Bantu languages delight and amaze all. They possess almost limitless flexibility, pliancy and softness. Their grammatical principles are founded on the most philosophical and systematic basis. Their vocabularies are susceptible of infinite expansion. They can express even delicate shades of thought and feeling. Perhaps no other languages are capable of greater definiteness and precision. Grout doubts whether Zulu — the purest type of a Bantu dialect, the lordly language of the south, the speech of a conquering and superior race — is surpassed in forming derivatives by German or Greek. Livingstone characterized as witnesses to the poverty of their own attainments men who complain of the poverty of Bantu languages. Bentley, after referring to the flexibility, fulness, subtlety of idea and nicety of expression in Kongoan, accredits this wealth of forms and ideas to the Bantu family in bulk. The wide sway of these qualities points out their immense practical importance to civilization. Three languages may be taken as the English tongue of their respective spheres. Zulu stretches from Natal to Nyasa, Swahili from Zanzibar welNnigh across equatorial Africa, and Mbundu (Ngolan) from Portuguese West Africa far eastward. In French Kongo the Fan (Mpangwe) and in Belgian Kongo below Livingstone Falls the Kongoan are strong developing factors. But Zulu, Swahili and Mbundu form representative and standard languages for the south, the east, the west
"Portuguese Conceptual Categories and the "Other" Encounter on the Swahili Coast" by Jeremy, Prestholdt

quote:


Bellow notes on page 18 of article

....In terms of language, Manuel de Faria e Sousa noted that Arabic, for example, was not widely spoken between Kirimba and Sofala: “the language of those people cannot be harsh, being mostly compounded of the soft letters 1 and m” (Theal, 1898(1):22). The Portuguese generally described Arabic dialects as “harsh,” while Swahili, or the “language of the coast of Melinde,” was described as “soft”. M. de Figueroa described Swahili as “clearer than Arabic” (Figueroa, 1967:62). By the seventeenth century, Portuguese accounts made strong distinctions between ‘mouros da costa’ (Swahili) and‘mouros da Arabia’ (Omanis or Yemenis). See, for example, “Carta de Março de 1622” (Livros dos Monções: Liv. 16, fol. 411), Leaé (c. 1696), and n.a., Relação da perda e restauração de Mombaça(c.1698). Portuguese narrators invariably described ‘mouros da Arabia’ in scathing terms, especially after the Portuguese loss of Muscat, while ‘mouros da costa’ were treated in a more even-handed fashion.


Bantus cannot be Swahilis because they are both languages and quite different. They are all black Africans. But again why are you focusing on outdated references to the scope and nature of indigenous African trading, economic and cultural activities when there are plenty more references that can and should be used to provide a fuller picture.
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markellion
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Bantus cannot be Swahilis because they are both languages and quite different.

Swahili language is part of the Bantu languages it is a "Bantu" language. What makes you think otherwise?
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Doctoris Scientia
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:
Originally posted by markellion:
Yes that was the point I was emphasizing the ignorance of outsiders about the geography of Africa plus that of the long distance trade. Those Swahili were just Bantus like other Bantus. They were part of the "Sudan"

Concerning Bantu languages:

On Bantu languages "The Uganda protectorate" By Harry Hamilton Johnston 1904

http://books.google.com/books?id=vyAUAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA890#v=onepage&q=&f=false

quote:
The Bantu languages, in fact, are rather more closely related one to the other—even in their extremest forms—than are the Aryan languages. This is so much the case that a native of Zanzibar can very soon make himself understood on the Congo, while a man of the Cameroons would not be long before he grasped the vocabulary of the Zulu. This interesting fact must play a certain part in the political development of Africa south of the fifth degree of north latitude. The rapidity with which the Kiswahili tongue of Zanzibar—a very convenient, simple, and expressive form of Bantu speech— has spread far and wide over East Central Africa, and has even gained a footing on the Congo, hints at the possibility of the Bantu Negroes at some future time adopting a universal Bantu language for inter-communication.
Perry Noble read 160-162 Bantu languages to 164 African languages in general


http://books.google.com/books?id=StYYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA162&dq=#v=onepage&q=&f=false


quote:
The beauty, plastic power and richness of Bantu languages delight and amaze all. They possess almost limitless flexibility, pliancy and softness. Their grammatical principles are founded on the most philosophical and systematic basis. Their vocabularies are susceptible of infinite expansion. They can express even delicate shades of thought and feeling. Perhaps no other languages are capable of greater definiteness and precision. Grout doubts whether Zulu — the purest type of a Bantu dialect, the lordly language of the south, the speech of a conquering and superior race — is surpassed in forming derivatives by German or Greek. Livingstone characterized as witnesses to the poverty of their own attainments men who complain of the poverty of Bantu languages. Bentley, after referring to the flexibility, fulness, subtlety of idea and nicety of expression in Kongoan, accredits this wealth of forms and ideas to the Bantu family in bulk. The wide sway of these qualities points out their immense practical importance to civilization. Three languages may be taken as the English tongue of their respective spheres. Zulu stretches from Natal to Nyasa, Swahili from Zanzibar welNnigh across equatorial Africa, and Mbundu (Ngolan) from Portuguese West Africa far eastward. In French Kongo the Fan (Mpangwe) and in Belgian Kongo below Livingstone Falls the Kongoan are strong developing factors. But Zulu, Swahili and Mbundu form representative and standard languages for the south, the east, the west
"Portuguese Conceptual Categories and the "Other" Encounter on the Swahili Coast" by Jeremy, Prestholdt

quote:


Bellow notes on page 18 of article

....In terms of language, Manuel de Faria e Sousa noted that Arabic, for example, was not widely spoken between Kirimba and Sofala: “the language of those people cannot be harsh, being mostly compounded of the soft letters 1 and m” (Theal, 1898(1):22). The Portuguese generally described Arabic dialects as “harsh,” while Swahili, or the “language of the coast of Melinde,” was described as “soft”. M. de Figueroa described Swahili as “clearer than Arabic” (Figueroa, 1967:62). By the seventeenth century, Portuguese accounts made strong distinctions between ‘mouros da costa’ (Swahili) and‘mouros da Arabia’ (Omanis or Yemenis). See, for example, “Carta de Março de 1622” (Livros dos Monções: Liv. 16, fol. 411), Leaé (c. 1696), and n.a., Relação da perda e restauração de Mombaça(c.1698). Portuguese narrators invariably described ‘mouros da Arabia’ in scathing terms, especially after the Portuguese loss of Muscat, while ‘mouros da costa’ were treated in a more even-handed fashion.


Bantus cannot be Swahilis because they are both languages and quite different. They are all black Africans. But again why are you focusing on outdated references to the scope and nature of indigenous African trading, economic and cultural activities when there are plenty more references that can and should be used to provide a fuller picture.
Swahili is a Bantu language [Confused]

"Swahili (Kiswahili) is a Bantu language spoken by various ethnic groups that inhabit several large stretches of the Indian Ocean coastline from northern Kenya to northern Mozambique, including the Comoros Islands."

"The Swahili are unique Bantu inhabitants of the East African Coast mainly from Kenya, Tanzania, and Mozambique. They are mainly united by culture and under the mother tongue of Kiswahili, a Bantu language."

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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by markellion:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Bantus cannot be Swahilis because they are both languages and quite different.

Swahili language is part of the Bantu languages it is a "Bantu" language. What makes you think otherwise?
I am pointing out that Swahili and Bantu are both black African groups speaking African languages (which are different) and therefore the linguistic/ethnic distinction is real, but it does not distinguish blackness. They are all black and I don't think anyone even claimed otherwise.
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Bantu is just language groups and Swahili language is a Bantu language. Do you have evidence for the otherwise? How are they different?

What I'm emphasizing here is that African groups had access to the whole Muslim world for trade but the Muslim world was limited to whom they could trade with

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Doug M

I don't want to argue but since when is Swahili NOT a Bantu Language?

Maybe you have a source that states this. If you do, that would be news.

Peace

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Mark! the Swahili were Muslems and belonged to the Muslem world atlarge why is it impossible for an African to be Muslem and still be African?.
quote:
What I'm emphasizing here is that African groups had access to the whole Muslim world for trade but the Muslim world was limited to whom they could trade with
And if the Swahili could trade inland I don't see any reason why non Swahili Muslems could not do the same especially if they had Sawhili protection and backing.
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markellion
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Because of the gross ignorance of geographers concerning the geography of most of Africa. These Africans were part of the Muslim world but kept non-Africans from coming into their trade. I already said Africans were part of the Muslim world when I posted this:

quote:
Originally posted by markellion:
Glory of the Blacks over the Whites

quote:
The Zanj also say : We also have philosophers from among us as well as theologians and we have fine manners....
This talks about Kilwa having relations with Timbuktu. BBC website go to the program on

9. The Kingdoms of Mali and Songhay

listen to 23:25-23:50 it talks about Kilwa

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/africa/features/storyofafrica/index_section16.shtml


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Doug M
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Markellion you post things that don't make a coherent point and are just a mish mash of various quotes that really don't support what you are saying.

For example
quote:
Originally posted by markellion:
Yes that was the point I was emphasizing the ignorance of outsiders about the geography of Africa plus that of the long distance trade. Those Swahili were just Bantus like other Bantus. They were part of the "Sudan"

That whole post was about nothing but language and nothing about Africans stopping non muslims from accessing the interior. While it may be true, nothing YOU posted actually suggests or states that directly. That is what I mean by you posting one little tidbit of something and then running off like you said a whole lot....

No offense, but there are plenty of sources that are available to actually support a lot of what you are saying. The problem is that maybe you don't know how to find them?

Likewise, you cannot claim that ancient geographers were ignorant when we have this:
 -

or this

 -

So again, I keep asking who is it that is ignorant?

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markellion
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Europeans must have had a very hard time translating Arabic because they remained ignorant about the geography of Africa

Anyway this is interesting read pages 25-35 "Ethiopia's alleged control of the Nile" by Richard Pankhurst

Edit: To the point there is unknown lands and all the Prester John stuff.

http://books.google.com/books?id=LcsJosc239YC&lpg=PA35&pg=PA35#v=onepage&q=&f=false

quote:
The myth that the Nile had, or could, be redirected by the misnamed Prester John....

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Coming back to this for a moment, everyone knows I'm talking about competing in the world economy and everything right? I mean you completely make me look absurd

quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Why don't we try dealing in facts instead of theories.

Show me in the histories of Europe or Asia where
craftsmen and "people with the knowledge" "have
an edge" over the people of the government and
their militants thus forcing them into reliance.

See thread "What was sold northward through the Sahara?"

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=002580

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