posted
I've talked to some people about this earlier and I'm surprised why people would think these Africans had negligible influence on the early Muslim church. If you look through the reformist Koran you see so many arguments on translations it is easy to see how history was extremely distorted, anything can be mistranslated.
Anyway about African Christianity just become some random Orientalist says they influenced early Islam doesn't make it true. However the history of these relations would make the idea of this African religious influence seem very compelling. Didn't the Abyssinians have allot of influence in Arabia? A distorted view of this aspect of history will only distort views on a great deal of history in general and this is why this is important
The Mohamed illiteracy thing has been questioned. see "QURAN A Reformist Translation" pages 26-28
If Mohamed was literate it would be a good example of how history has been severely distorted
page 27
quote:The Arabs of the 7th century used letters as numbers. This alphabetical numbering system is called "Abjad." The merchants of those days had to know the letters of the alphabet to record their accounts! If Muhammad was a successful international merchant, as is universally accepted, then he most probably knew this numbering system. The Arabs stopped using the "Abjad" system in the 9th century when they took "Arabic numbers" from India.
Perry Noble (Note much of what he says should be taken with a grain of salt but what we know of the history would make the quote bellow very compelling to believe):
quote:During the first or Meccan period (610=622) of his prophetship Muhammad and his followers looked upon the Abyssinian Christians as their religious kinsmen. "Yonder," he said to some of his persecuted converts without protectors, and, as he spake, pointing westward: "Yonder lieth a land where none is wronged. Go thither, and remain till the Lord open a way". Dean Stanley noted this connection between the Abyssinian Christians and the first Muslims. He wrote: "Springing out of the same oriental soil and climate, if not from the bosom of the oriental church itself, in part under its influence, in part by reaction, Muhammadanism must be regarded as an eccentric, heretical form of eastern Christianity. This was the ancient mode of regarding Muhammad. He was considered not the founder of a new religion but, rather, one of the chief heresiarchs of the church"
quote:It is an interesting fact that among the few words of Christian origin in the Quran some, including Shaitan or Satan, came from Abyssinia.
Footnote Perry Noble writes that a Dr Smith
quote:regards Islam as in many respects a counterpart of medieval Christianity" and that "professor Duncan Macdonald even calls "Islam simply Calvinism!
posted
But what about relations after the death of Mohammed? Remember that there were many African Muslim states so Islam in modern day Sudan can just as easily be due to the influence of other African empires. I’ve posted some before about Makurians using brute force to manipulate Egypt but Jay Spaulding is silent about the Makurian invasions into Egypt. However he does give information on economics and he thinks that capitalist Muslims were putting pressure on the “Nubians” but I suspect it is the other way around. This is highly important to early Christian-Muslim relations because this African Christian influence over the Islamic world was probably very great and went beyond brute force.
In sort I want to show that this Christian influence lasted after Mohamed
“Medieval Christian Nubia and the Islamic World: A Reconsideration of the Baqt Treaty” by Jay Spaulding
page 589 of the journal (the actual article isn’t that many pages).
quote:758, when the new Abbasid governor of Egypt wrote to the Makurian monarch: “[Here] no obstacle is placed between your merchants and what they want – [they are] safe and contented wherever they go in our land. You, however… behave otherwise… nore are our merchants safe with you.”
On the next page Spaulding says that over time the “Nubians” (including states other than Makuria) gradually allowed northern merchants certain rights and some established places specifically for foreigners. This is why he refers to a “northern zone of special status” bellow
Page 590 we also learn some about “Nubian” merchants
quote:Meanwhile some Nubian subjects themselves, especially from the northern zone of special status, had also become private merchants and had begun to conduct their own commercial ventures northward into Egypt. The Nubian king attempted to maintain his hold over subjects living abroad, and to profit from their private commerce, by negotiating an arrangement according to when a royal Makurian agent was authorized to reside and to travel within the Islamic caliphate in order to collect taxes from the Nubians living abroad.
The author says there are no accounts after this about the king of Makuria controlling merchants but I think it might be that he doesn’t have the information, this might have continued to happen. Page 593 the author says there are no solid figures about the number of slaves taken its mostly just guessing. The author overall dispels the myth that 400 slaves were given every year, many years there were no Baqt exchanges and most of the time Makurians gave products other than slaves. The author looks at specific Baqt exchanges where the Makurians give only one male and one female or don’t give slaves at all. The author notes that the number of “Nubian” mercenaries was so great that he believes it is a myth that most of the slaves were woman (most slaves coming from private traders not the Baqt treaty). However I think it is more plausible that most were women and that most of the “Nubian” soldiers were free men that enlisted instead of the slaves as he mentions bellow. This is important because it does show some evidence that many of the soldiers were free people and this would apply to other areas of African history too
Page 593
quote:No figures whatsoever exist concerning the magnitude of this trade at any period; yet without such data, no remotely plausible assessment of total slave exports is possible. Even in the absence of absolute numbers, however, it is possible to challenge the assertion by Cliometricians that most slaves exported from the Northeast Africa to the Islamic Orient were female, for the claim is difficult to reconcile with a source literature from medieval Egypt in which corps of black male military slaves are conspicuous while Africa females are not. The actual primary evidence on the question is perhaps instructive; the one known baqt shipment in the form of slaves by an independent Makurian monarch comprised one male and one female.
quote:They were Christians, it should be remembered, for many centuries, and although the flourishing Christian Empire of Nubia, with its seventeen bishoprics and its thirteen viceroyalties, all governed by priests, was not founded, as is commonly supposed, by the renowned Silco, " King of the Noubads and of all the Ethiopians," it was strong enough frequently to invade Egypt in defence of their oppressed Greek and Koptic fellow-Christians. So early as 640 a combined army of Nubas and Bejas, said to have numbered 50,000 men with 1500 elephants, penetrated as far north as Oxyrhynchus (the Arab Bahnosa) where such a surprising store of Greek and other documents was discovered in 1897. Cultured peoples with such glorious records, and traditions going back even to pre-Christian times (Silco and Queen Candace, contemporary of Augustus
quote:at periods the Nubians gained the upper hand, as in 737 when Cyriacus, their then king, marched into Egypt with a large army to redress the grievances of the Copts. There is a record of an embassy sent by a king Zacharias in the 9th century to Bagdad concerning the tribute, while by the close of the l0th century the Nubians seem to have regained almost complete independence....
....Nevertheless, the Nubians were strong enough to invade upper Egypt during the reign of Nawaya Krcstos (1342-1372), because the governor of Cairo had thrown the patriarch of Alexandria into prison. The date usually assigned for the overthrow of the Christian kingdom 1351. Only the northern part of the country (as far as the 3rd cataract) came under the rule of Egypt.
"The Spread of Islam and the Nubian Dam” by David Ayalon
quote: 3. The awe and respect that the Muslims had for their Nubian adversaries are reflected in the fact that even a rather late Umayyad caliph, ‘Umar b ‘Abd al- ‘Aziz (‘Umar II 717-720), is said to have ratified the Nubian-Muslim treaty out of fear for the safety of the Muslims (“he ratified the peace treaty out of consideration for the Muslims and out of [a desire] to spare their lives”)
posted
Christianity had significant impact on Islam in general but most certainly the Coptic Church.
I have a Muslim friend who I showed pictures of an Ethiopian Coptic church to today and he thought he was looking at a Mosque.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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Acquisition by a government of other governments or territories, or of economic or cultural power over other nations or territories, often by force. Colonialism is a form of imperialism.
posted
Focusing exclusively on west African trade?
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: You are focusing exclusively on certain west african trade hubs as representing "Sudan". First off black Africans across ALL OF AFRICA controlled the trade in Africa and with outsiders for most of their history. It wasn't limited to West Africa but was also in the Sahara, North Africa East Africa and Southern Africa. African gold and other commodities were very important commodities in all of these locations and it wasn't just in West Africa and the agents were primarily blacks and not just "veiled" people.
The 2nd and 3rd posts in this thread show reason to doubt that people came from Arabia and became ruling classes all over Africa in ancient times. The 2nd post shows how "Nubian" merchants could move through Muslim territories but the Muslim merchants were not safe in Makuria. This favors the idea of movement going northward. We also see the high significance of soldiers in Muslim armies and Africans were already important in Arab armies since before Islam. This gives more reason to believe movements moved to Arabia
And then on the 3rd post we learn about a great "Nubian" Dam that halts the Muslim conquests. How could Arabs be halted in times after Islam but supposed to spread all over Bilald al-Sudan and become ruling classes before Islam? Please answer
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posted
On this view of the world where Allah was working through Mohamed would would also have to conclude that the Abyssinians, who were a people of the book, were also a major part of this plan. Thus African influence on Islam
Edit: This of course is all based on the influence that Christian nations like Abyssinia had
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posted
Mohamed is known to have kept ties with the emperor of Abyssinia the bellow is just one example of this. Before the time of Muhammad there was already attempts by an Abyssinian general to destroy the "idols" at Mecca which shows that there was an imperial desire before Muhammad came to powerful.
Concerning times after Muhammad it has already been shown that the Muslim conquests relied on support from the kings of the "Sudan" possibly in ways that are not obvious to us at the moment. Egypt was in some way central to this conspiracy. Obviously Muslims wanted to claim that the emperor converted to Islam because Muslims wanted to believe the prophet didn't pray for non-Muslims
quote:Originally posted by Abu Isa: Now, I know Muhammad peace be upon him had dialogue (through letters the Prophet ordered written)with the Negus or king of Abyssinia. Muhammad called him a fair, just religious man and recommended the oppressed companions to migrate to Abyssina because the Muslims would have justice and religious freedom there under the laws of the fair king. When this king died Muhammad (peace be upon him) prayed for this man. Some say this king actually converted to Islam which is why Muhammad prayed for him when the Negus died, as he (Muhammad peace be upon him)didn't pray for non Muslims who died after he was commanded to refrain from doing this after his beloved uncle died.
Edit: Did Ibn Khaldun actually say that Mohamed traveled to Abyssinia in the hijra or is this a typo or something?
"The Negroland of the Arabs examined and explained"
quote:"Adjoining the Berber are the Abyssinians, the most numerous and powerful of the Blacks. From their country Yemen once had its kings. The king of the Abyssinians was entitled Al-Negashi, and the capital of his kingdom was the city of Kaber. The Abyssinians are Christians, but it is said that one of their kings embraced the true faith when Mohammed visited their country in the Hijra. They believe that they are destined to become masters of Yemen and all Arabia.
posted
Explain how this fits in with the entire known history of these relations and what evidence supports your bellow opinion? The sole and only thing that is important in this world is power, how did the Arabs gain this kind of power? What we know on the subject would strongly suggest influence and people coming from these African countries to Arabia, in fact there is good reason to believe a great number of free people traveled northward to Arabia even more than the other way around
quote:Originally posted by Muhommed Abed: Nearly a thousand years of Arabs enslaving Black Africans because they felt we were weak and inferior. They did not consider Blacks human (until the advent of Islam and even after a Black man's conversion, the Arab muslims did not consider his Black counterpart an equal). You think that wasn't strong enough to be a racist against blacks?
posted
One would believe that "Arabs" would be stronger after Islam than before Islam, and even after Islam they were still under a great deal of influence from these African nations, one would also be forced to the conclusion that they were under a great deal of influence from these nations before Islam too. Even during the rise of the Turks they were dependent on these African nations for trade and Afro-Turk relations were that of interdependence with the exchange of diplomats and everything. The Ottomans were more powerful but even then it wasn't completely one sided. Even with the rise of the Ottoman empire Muhommed Abed's model of grossly one sided relations doesn't apply
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quote:Originally posted by Muhommed Abed: Islam is the only religion of Allah in the mouth of his final prophet, Muhommed (PBUH).
Christ is the Final Prophet, Mohmmed is not even of the seed of Jacob whom prophethood was bestoyed upon.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote: Islam is the only religion of Allah in the mouth of his final prophet, Muhommed (PBUH).
Christ is the Final Prophet, Mohmmed is not even of the seed of Jacob whom prophethood was bestoyed upon.
Yeah the ol our father can whoop your father who art in heaven thingy again..sheech give mi that ol time religion...and ah really mean ol time Nile or Niger based without desert folks input about a jealous party pooping god.
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posted
There is still the issue of the influence in these religions. If God for whatever reason decided to share the message thing through Arab, and since Ethiopians had a great deal of influence in Arabia, it stands that Islam would have a great deal of Ethiopian influences. To believe that it had no such influences is in itself highly ethnocentric and the Koran makes it very clear that all languages in the world are equally divine whither it being English, Arabic or Hebrew. However, the issues on this thread are more within the realm of the material world especially as it pertains to African imperialism
It is interesting that there are so many clear similarities exist concerning Muslim relations with Christians (as shown here) and Muslim relations with "pagans" in the west
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posted
It seems that there is a mental block in which people have supreme difficulty in seeing these African nations as being in or interacting with the Muslim world as peers. One disturbing aspect of this is people always see Arabs as coming in and mixing with these communities but don’t look at this happening the other way around with people traveling to Arabia. During the colonial era everything was done to create “Arab” ruling classes or to apply the Hamitic myth so that “Hamitic” or “Arab” blood became like royalty which certainly had a major impact on peoples’ thinking
Osirion I'd like to hear your opinion on this as it pertains to this history in general. Has your overall view of this history changed?
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posted
So is it possible the early Muslim conquerers were puppets of African Christians, during the first centuries?
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posted
I would have to say No but Most European Scholars always thought Muhammed to be a Oriental Orthodox Extremiest. Islam came out of the schools or the Oriental
I would have to say that the Arabs choose not to attack Abyssinia in the begginng of the Islamic takeover becaused it would of been a big blow to the Muslims they might of lost and they wouldnt of had there Islamic Empire. Muhammed told his followers who were going to be killed and wiped out to leave to abyssinia and align himself withe the Najashi its a important political move the Abyssinians had the Power not Yemen,Israel,or even Egypt which was under Roman Rule. Muhammed needed his followers to leave 2 a place with security and a powerful allie.
Pre-Islamic Mecca was protected by Abashia mercenaries who guarded the caravans of traders in Mecca, as well as guarded the town of Mecca so Muhammed had no other Option but to befriend the Najashi and the Christians who were the closest in brotherhood to the Muslims
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posted
"What we do know is that sometime after the appearance of modern Homo sapiens laying white caucasian human turds, some of us began to leave traces of them in Europe and those "Caucasian Turds" people colonized and became the white race. As they spread out over the earth, little bands of turds became geographically found all over Europe, and began to appear, as far as Asia and the Americas. Little isolated bands of white turds, together adapting to their geographic surroundings and in isolation from the rest of the population, began to develop regional patterns of physical appearance, ans mischeif and it is at this point that "the white race," that is, different characteristics began to be expressed. Changes in skin color, nose shape, limb length and overall body proportions occurred partly as a reaction to latitudinal differences in temperature, aridity, and amount of solar radiation in the skin of those Caucasian turds. It is these white turds that evolved into the " white race" our species; paleoanthropologists prefer to express it as "geographical variation," and that seems like a pretty good way to look at it. Generally, and I mean generally, the four major geographic variations are Mongoloid (generally considered northeastern Asia), Indianoid (Indian and perhaps South America), Caucasoid Turds (all of Europe), and Negroid or African ( Africa or perhaps African Americans ect....). Bear in mind that these are broad patterns only and that both physical traits and genes vary more within these geographical groups than they do between them or any African group anywhere else in the world."
This is not just a theory it is true fact. I made a white pooo yesterday.
Retrieved from:http://archaeology.about.com/od/kennewickTurdMan/a/caucasoidturd.htm
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posted
The Muslims actually attempted to invade Makuria but were humiliatingly defeated, at the same time the Muslims were dependent on the Makurians economically and remained dependent on Makurian soldiers
See post two on this thread
What is fascinating is that the Muslims became conquerers and were very influential, but were dependent on both "Pagan" and Christian Africans as will as Muslim Africans too....
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I would have to say that the Arabs choose not to attack Abyssinia in the begginng of the Islamic takeover becaused it would of been a big blow to the Muslims they might of lost and they wouldnt of had there Islamic Empire. Muhammed told his followers who were going to be killed and wiped out to leave to abyssinia and align himself withe the Najashi its a important political move the Abyssinians had the Power not Yemen,Israel,or even Egypt which was under Roman Rule. Muhammed needed his followers to leave 2 a place with security and a powerful allie.
Pre-Islamic Mecca was protected by Abashia mercenaries who guarded the caravans of traders in Mecca, as well as guarded the town of Mecca so Muhammed had no other Option but to befriend the Najashi and the Christians who were the closest in brotherhood to the Muslims
I pointed out Makura because people know about Muslims having an ally in Abyssinia but the case of Makuria was purely a case of the power of that nation in not being conquered by Muslims. It wasn't because Mohamed said "don't attack Makuria" the Muslims simply failed to conquer that nation. At the same time the Muslim merchants were restricted going south Makurian merchants could move north
It does seem that perhaps these Christians could be manipulating things
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posted
Yes u are right mark Makuria was heavily fortefied and the Muslims could not even come into Ethiopia let along Alwa, and Makuria.
U must understand Muhammeds stance as well as what was going on during his time. Muhammed was not a merchant he was married to an older women named Kadija who was a successful business women she was the Merchant he was just married to her as she was much older than him shows u women statis in pre-islamic times.
If u read the Quran u will see that Mecca Surahs are much more peaceful and more about love and harmony which shows that while he was in Mecca he needed to gain more followers even in Mecca alcohol was not outlawed its not until he gets to Medina u can tell how the Surahs verses from the Quran change he now has many followers and power and speaks his mind.
U would be amazed but Yemen gave the Muslims the biggest fight of all the Arabs of Today. Muhammed sent letters to the Julandi brothers of Yemen they refused fought and countinued to fight and fight and fight Yemen was the last to become fully Muslim seeing this Fight Amongst the Mahra who some are not even Muslims and those who are wear it lightly.
U should read the Apology of Al Kindy
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quote:"Adjoining the Berber are the Abyssinians, the most numerous and powerful of the Blacks. From their country Yemen once had its kings. The king of the Abyssinians was entitled Al-Negashi, and the capital of his kingdom was the city of Kaber. The Abyssinians are Christians, but it is said that one of their kings embraced the true faith when Mohammed visited their country in the Hijra. They believe that they are destined to become masters of Yemen and all Arabia.
posted
I've heard many outrageous things (like Mahommed traveling to Abyssinia above, might be a typo). John Henrik Clarke claimed that Bilal was not a slave but a tutor that was something that really stunned me. Note that I have never found one thing saying that except John Henrik Clarke so its probably not true
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posted
Well its documented that Bilal was a slave taken from Abyssinina his real name was Belay Gebremedhin and he can read and write what u think his slave master was beating him because he was black no Bilal was a smart ass Bilal already knew there was ONe God without ever meeting Muhammed or any other Arab he comes from a Country of Royal Kings and Men of Great Knowledge.
If u read the Quran and Hadith u will find that the Arabs thought Muhammed was being Taught by Bilal the abyssinian accidental slave, Jabr aka Gabre the abyssinian who was not a slave, and Farsi the persian who was always around muhammed. In the Quran they accuse muhammed of learning from these men Muhammed in the Quran Says How Can that Be When They are Foriegners and I am speaking in Clear ARabic.
U must understand the Abyssinians ruled Arabia for over 1000 years only ending with the Birth of Muhammed in the Year of the Elephant in reference to Abraha running wild in arabia with elephants. Even during the raid of Mecca which didnt happen by Abraha many of the mercernaries who protected Mecca were Abyssinians who fled with the people of mecca into the hills.
It is well documented that most of the philosphers,doctors,Priest,mercenaries, tutors etc of Arabia pre-islamic were of Abysssinian origin good example is Kadija's cousin who is a Christian was taught by an Abyssinian priest.
I have no evidence for Muhammed ever leaving arabia except for al Miraj when it was said that he went to the farthest Mosque which is in reference from Islamic scholars of Al-Aqsa in Palestine.
There is also a story of a Syrian Jacobite Christian meeting Muhammed as a boy im not sure if it was in Syria or if he meet him in the desert of arabia during trading caravans.
What most Arabs and Islamic Scholars always point out that The First Islamic Community outside of Mecca Medina is Abyssinina with Jafar and Obeida the First Followers of Islam in Worku Tigray the Oldest Islamic Community in the World and a World heritage Site and the Third Most Holiest Site for Muslims after Mecca and Medinah and the Third Oldiest Mosque in the World.
Islam Entered Abyssinina Before It Entered Mecca can u believe this. Im not sure if the Claims by Arabs and Muslims that the Habshi king bacame muslim has no evidence whats soever. It is well Documented that of all the First Followers who entered Abyssinina only Two of them Obeida, and Abu Ala converted to Coptic and married ethiopians the rest either stayed and became Muslim or went back to Medina.
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posted
These are outrageous things but Ibn Khaldun and John Henrik Clarke are respected scholars so I decided to enquire about it. As for Ibn Khaldun it could hvae been a typo in the way it was worded
John Henrik Clarke made the bold claim that "the encyclepedia of Islam is wrong" on the issue. I don't want to share wrong information but I thought it was shocking.
"The Rise Of Islam and The Fall Of Africa" - Dr. John Henrik Clarke - Part 7
If u read the Quran and Hadith u will find that the Arabs thought Muhammed was being Taught by Bilal the abyssinian accidental slave, Jabr aka Gabre the abyssinian who was not a slave, and Farsi the persian who was always around muhammed. In the Quran they accuse muhammed of learning from these men Muhammed in the Quran Says How Can that Be When They are Foriegners and I am speaking in Clear ARabic.
The Koran Reformist translation thought that Mahomed was a literate man and of course it also attributes translations to certain flawed readings of the Koran (since the Koran is in old Arabic with archaic words so modern people can still be confused to the meaning of these words). Here we see a possible incentive to call Bilal a slave in order to play down the possibility he taught Mahomed.
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For this sanction to be given, it was necessary to compromise with paganism, and accept the power of pagan kings as indispensable to the good life…..
Page 8
Neither fatwa prescribes specifically for a situation in which there was no such royal power, as must have been the case among the many tribal or 'stateless' societies of the Sahara and the Sudan. The implication of the second fatwa, indeed, may be that if no pagan king existed, it was necessary to invent one
quote: There is a passage in Ibn Khaldun (fol. 89) which, with a little abridgment, is worth transcribing.—"After the fall of the Morabite dynasty, the tribes of the Molaththemun returned to the desert, and now occupy the countries which they originally possessed in the vicinity of Negroland. But as we have already observed, the emigration of the Zenagah tribes was but partial: a few only of the Masufah and Lumtunah obeyed the impulse, while the majority of the tribes remained behind, and keep in days their old settlements in the Sahra, paying tribute to the Kings of Negroland, on whom they depend, and in whose armies they serve
"Trans-Saharan Trade and the West African Discovery of the Mediterranean World"
quote:In the early 13th century, the governor of Sijilmasa, which was the most important terminus of the trans-Saharan caravan routes in southern Morocco, sent a following letter to the king of Ghana who was by then the most powerful ruler in Western Africa:
....
Considering the contents of this letter, there is no doubt who had the actual control over the trade in the south.
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