posted
When dealing with cultural evolution in North Africa, one of the most intriguing evolutions is that of the Capsian culture. This culture replaced the Ibero-Maurusian culture that apparently was part of the Iberian refuge during the last glacial maximum.
So who were the predecessors of the Capsian people? Currently the evidence points to the Eburran industry coming out of Ethiopia/Kenya region. In Aksum we see evidence of blade making techniques that make there way into North Africa. This evidence fits very well with genetic evidence that we have in terms of relatedness between Horn Africans and Berbers (paternally speaking).
In terms of facial form, these people are intermediate types and very similar to modern day Masai.
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posted
The Capsian are the direct ancestors of modern Berbers. They replaced partly (not totally) the Ibero-Maurusians.
For better view, you shouldn't give the headlines of their origins. It is the goal, so don't begin by the end.
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posted
^ What we are really discussing is the origins of the Afrasan people themselves which is hotly debated.
Do the Afrasan people have a Sub-Saharan origin?
The Kenya Capsian tool complex is a piece of the puzzle that supports an East African origin. The question I have is what happened to the Europeans that took refuge in coastal North Africa during the last glacial maximum?
So the Ibero-Maurusians were partially replaced means exactly what? And these people, who were they before the East Africans arrived? Are they still part of the Berber people? Were they European from the Iberian peninsula? If so, does this explain why Berbers have European features since Horn Africans have recessive genes?
Lots of questions here. Nothing I see has been very conclusive on this subject.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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posted
TO get past this issue Berbers must understand and accept their mixed African status. Genetics is pretty damn clear on where "Berber" people ultimately "Come From". From what I have seen they are unwilling to accept this. Capsian in Kenya is older than that in North Africa.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
Not only is the Kenyan Eburran complex older than the Capsian but there are many other lithic traditions from all across Africa that are older. The problem is that many of these traditions have not been given formal names, so it makes it seem that the Capsian in North Africa existed in a vacuum. The capsian was simply one of many tool making traditions and therefore populations across Africa and all tool making traditions in humans originate in Africa. Of course if the archaeology was done properly and the evidence gathered in more parts of the Sahara you would see that there was a pattern of older lithic traditions and that Capsian was not the only one. But by not naming these lithic cultures, it allows for people to pretend that the Capsian was more than it really was. And it is no coincidence that this tradition gets hyped when it comes to the history of "Berbers", because both are taken out of their proper African context by those who have an agenda.
quote:Originally posted by astenb: TO get past this issue Berbers must understand and accept their mixed African status. Genetics is pretty damn clear on where "Berber" people ultimately "Come From". From what I have seen they are unwilling to accept this. Capsian in Kenya is older than that in North Africa.
Please provide genetic reports if you have any on Berber people. Also it would be interesting if there's reports on the recessiveness of East African genes.
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posted
^ And where have you been in the last five years or so that you've been on this forum?? Do you not recall the countless discussions where it was verified that Berbers overwhelmingly carry Y-chromosomal lineage E1b1b1b (E-M81) formerly known as E3b2! Whereas their maternal lineages tend to vary with European lineages being more predominant in the northwest coasts!
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-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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posted
^^Osirion is like Truthcentric, they've been here for eons, yet forget (maybe acting?) the most basic things discussed here, and then goes on to ask the same questions they've asked before, over and over, only to receive an answer, albeit this fact, they will still ask the same questions again a few months later, like they were never answered to begin with, just simply ask Altakruri.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: ^^Osirion is like Truthcentric, they've been here for eons, yet forget (maybe acting?) the most basic things discussed here, and then goes on to ask the same questions they've asked before, over and over, only to receive an answer, albeit this fact, they will still ask the same questions again a few months later, like they were never answered to begin with, just simply ask Altakruri.
Populations genetics is a very nascent science and as a result I come back to the same question because studies vary so significantly and quickly. It was only 8 months ago that haplogroup E was being discussed as if it was of West Asian origin. This has pretty much been thrown out, however, things change quickly.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: ^^Osirion is like Truthcentric, they've been here for eons, yet forget (maybe acting?) the most basic things discussed here, and then goes on to ask the same questions they've asked before, over and over, only to receive an answer, albeit this fact, they will still ask the same questions again a few months later, like they were never answered to begin with, just simply ask Altakruri.
Populations genetics is a very nascent science and as a result I come back to the same question because studies vary so significantly and quickly. It was only 8 months ago that haplogroup E was being discussed as if it was of West Asian origin. This has pretty much been thrown out, however, things change quickly. [/QB]
Really Where? And what data was being discussed?
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: ^^Osirion is like Truthcentric, they've been here for eons, yet forget (maybe acting?) the most basic things discussed here, and then goes on to ask the same questions they've asked before, over and over, only to receive an answer, albeit this fact, they will still ask the same questions again a few months later, like they were never answered to begin with, just simply ask Altakruri.
Populations genetics is a very nascent science and as a result I come back to the same question because studies vary so significantly and quickly. It was only 8 months ago that haplogroup E was being discussed as if it was of West Asian origin. This has pretty much been thrown out, however, things change quickly.
Really Where? And what data was being discussed? [/QB]
Chandrasekar is still holding this position.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: ^^Osirion is like Truthcentric, they've been here for eons, yet forget (maybe acting?) the most basic things discussed here, and then goes on to ask the same questions they've asked before, over and over, only to receive an answer, albeit this fact, they will still ask the same questions again a few months later, like they were never answered to begin with, just simply ask Altakruri.
Populations genetics is a very nascent science and as a result I come back to the same question because studies vary so significantly and quickly. It was only 8 months ago that haplogroup E was being discussed as if it was of West Asian origin. This has pretty much been thrown out, however, things change quickly.
Really Where? And what data was being discussed?
Chandrasekar is still holding this position. [/QB]
Quote him. I hope you're not talking about his premise of not labeling the derivatives of E1b1b which are present in southwest Asia and Europe that arose in the places aforementioned as African, are you? Because this gives no insight on the pristine underived Hg E lineages found in Africa.
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posted
^ my only point was that things change quickly in this field. Where there's scant evidence then conclusions should also be scant.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Its unfortunate how scant research is on topics that don't support Eurocentric positions.
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This culture replaced the Ibero-Maurusian culture that apparently was part of the Iberian refuge during the last glacial maximum.
I seriously would like to learn about your detailed material documentation of an Ice Age European Refugium in Africa!
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: The Capsian are the direct ancestors of modern Berbers. They replaced partly (not totally) the Ibero-Maurusians.
For better view, you shouldn't give the headlines of their origins. It is the goal, so don't begin by the end.
You were correct Osirion, Capsian probably came out of the Eburran. And the people who keep many aspects of the Capsian culture are the people of the Horn, especially in Somalia. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by astenb: TO get past this issue Berbers must understand and accept their mixed African status. Genetics is pretty damn clear on where "Berber" people ultimately "Come From". From what I have seen they are unwilling to accept this. Capsian in Kenya is older than that in North Africa.
Yes - present day Berber-speakers are derived from a number of sources. They are the product of amalgamation between different biological populations and culture.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ What we are really discussing is the origins of the Afrasan people themselves which is hotly debated.
Do the Afrasan people have a Sub-Saharan origin?
The Kenya Capsian tool complex is a piece of the puzzle that supports an East African origin. The question I have is what happened to the Europeans that took refuge in coastal North Africa during the last glacial maximum?
So the Ibero-Maurusians were partially replaced means exactly what? And these people, who were they before the East Africans arrived? Are they still part of the Berber people? Were they European from the Iberian peninsula? If so, does this explain why Berbers have European features since Horn Africans have recessive genes?
Lots of questions here. Nothing I see has been very conclusive on this subject.
The name Iberian used to comprise the Mechtoid type of North AFrica in the Nile and Nubia. It was a more robust type of African that seems to have been related to Cro-Magnon types in Europe. That is where the confusion comes from. The makers of the early North African Capsian (Mesolithic culture) was said to have been "Ibero-Maurusian" or "Mechtoid" like people. Later the towards the neolithic the gracile Mediterranean types appear similar to those that appear at Naqqada Gerzean and other Nilo-Saharan groups that occupied Nubia and Egypt come to dominate.
The Capsians are probably ancestral to early gracile Saharan types.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
I wonder if it's possible to understand anything about Capsian cultural origins without placing it in some kind of referential context.
You have placed it in North Africa and after the misnomered "Ibero-Maurusian" culture and so far so good about that.
But do readers know the traits that define this culture, or its geographic boundaries, how long it endured from its rough beginning to ending dates, what cultures were in its proximity and what if any interaction happened between them?
Then, in consideration of the above, was there a "Capsian people" sharing a general phenotype differentiating them from surrounding peoples?
For me it's impossible to speak of Capsian origins whether or not they are North African without really knowing the above and also what is considered North Africa (i.e., the whole S. Med coast, the Maghreb only, the littoral to the pre-Sahara or on into the Sahara, everywher north of say the equator, etc.).
And I'm not being funny about what is North Africa because some here by strict division see the whole northern half of the continent as North Africa. Some have included what most agree is West Africa as being included in North Africa. It may seem silly but it's true.
I'm not trying to put a damper on things just thinking in terms of facts and things that made this forum more a point of reference than a place for run on conversation.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: When dealing with cultural evolution in North Africa, one of the most intriguing evolutions is that of the Capsian culture. This culture replaced the Ibero-Maurusian culture that apparently was part of the Iberian refuge during the last glacial maximum.
So who were the predecessors of the Capsian people? Currently the evidence points to the Eburran industry coming out of Ethiopia/Kenya region. In Aksum we see evidence of blade making techniques that make there way into North Africa. This evidence fits very well with genetic evidence that we have in terms of relatedness between Horn Africans and Berbers (paternally speaking).
In terms of facial form, these people are intermediate types and very similar to modern day Masai.
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posted
^ we certainly wouldn't say that Northern Kenya is in anyway North Africa.
I am simply going to make a connection: Eburran also becomes the Natufian culture and not just the Capsian.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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posted
^ The Capsian industry has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Gravettian of Europe, but apparently a lot to do with the older Eburran industry of east Africa also called 'Kenyan Capsian' (13,000-9,000 BCE).
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Not only is the Kenyan Eburran complex older than the Capsian but there are many other lithic traditions from all across Africa that are older. The problem is that many of these traditions have not been given formal names, so it makes it seem that the Capsian in North Africa existed in a vacuum. The capsian was simply one of many tool making traditions and therefore populations across Africa and all tool making traditions in humans originate in Africa. Of course if the archaeology was done properly and the evidence gathered in more parts of the Sahara you would see that there was a pattern of older lithic traditions and that Capsian was not the only one. But by not naming these lithic cultures, it allows for people to pretend that the Capsian was more than it really was. And it is no coincidence that this tradition gets hyped when it comes to the history of "Berbers", because both are taken out of their proper African context by those who have an agenda.
John E. Yellen National Science Foundation, 4201 Wilson Boulevard, Arlington, Virginia 22230
Abstract Examination of African barbed bone points recovered from Holocene sites provides a context to interpret three Late Pleistocene occurrences from Katanda and Ishango, Zaire, and White Paintings Shelter, Botswana. In sites dated to ca. 10,000 BP and younger, such artifacts are found widely distributed across the Sahara Desert, the Sahel, the Nile, and the East African Lakes. They are present in both ceramic and aceramic contexts, sometimes associated with domesticates. The almost-universal presence of fish remains indicates a subsistence adaptation which incorporates a riverine/lacustrine component. Typologically these points exhibit sufficient similarity in form and method of manufacture to be subsumed within a single African “tradition.” They are absent at Fayum, where a distinct Natufian form occurs. Specimens dating to ca. 20,000 BP at Ishango, possibly a similar age at White Paintings Shelter, and up to 90,000 BP at Katanda clearly fall within this same African tradition and thus indicate a very long-term continuity which crosses traditionally conceived sub-Saharan cultural boundaries.
'Divorcing the Late Upper Palaeolithic demographic histories of mtDNA haplogroups M1 and U6 in Africa'
Erwan Pennarun, Toomas Kivisild, Ene Metspalu, Mait Metspalu, Tuuli Reisberg, Doron M Behar, Sacha C Jones and Richard Villems
BMC Evolutionary Biology 2012, 12:234
Abstract (provisional)
Background A Southwest Asian origin and dispersal to North Africa in the Early Upper Palaeolithic era has been inferred in previous studies for mtDNA haplogroups M1 and U6. Both haplogroups have been proposed to show similar geographic patterns and shared demographic histories.
Results We report here 24 M1 and 33 U6 new complete mtDNA sequences that allow us to refine the existing phylogeny of these haplogroups. The resulting phylogenetic information was used to genotype a further 131 M1 and 91 U6 samples to determine the geographic spread of their sub-clades. No southwest Asian specific clades for M1 or U6 were discovered. U6 and M1 frequencies in North Africa, the Middle East and Europe do not follow similar patterns, and their sub- clade divisions do not appear to be compatible with their shared history reaching back to the Early Upper Palaeolithic. The Bayesian Skyline Plots testify to non- overlapping phases of expansion, and the haplogroups' phylogenies suggest that there are U6 sub-clades that expanded earlier than those in M1. Some M1 and U6 sub-clades could be linked with certain events. For example, U6a1 and M1b, with their coalescent ages of ~20,000-22,000 years ago and earliest inferred expansion in northwest Africa, could coincide with the flourishing of the Iberomaurusian industry, whilst U6b and M1b1 appeared at the time of the Capsian culture.
Conclusions Our high-resolution phylogenetic dissection of both haplogroups and coalescent time assessments suggest that the extant main branching pattern of both haplogroups arose and diversified in the mid-later Upper Palaeolithic, with some sub-clades concomitantly with the expansion of the Iberomaurusian industry. Carriers of these maternal lineages have been later absorbed into and diversified further during the spread of Afro- Asiatic languages in North and East Africa.
By the way, U6b is still found today among people in Kenya.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ The Capsian industry has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Gravettian of Europe, but apparently a lot to do with the older Eburran industry of east Africa also called 'Kenyan Capsian' (13,000-9,000 BCE).
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Not only is the Kenyan Eburran complex older than the Capsian but there are many other lithic traditions from all across Africa that are older. The problem is that many of these traditions have not been given formal names, so it makes it seem that the Capsian in North Africa existed in a vacuum. The capsian was simply one of many tool making traditions and therefore populations across Africa and all tool making traditions in humans originate in Africa. Of course if the archaeology was done properly and the evidence gathered in more parts of the Sahara you would see that there was a pattern of older lithic traditions and that Capsian was not the only one. But by not naming these lithic cultures, it allows for people to pretend that the Capsian was more than it really was. And it is no coincidence that this tradition gets hyped when it comes to the history of "Berbers", because both are taken out of their proper African context by those who have an agenda.
John E. Yellen National Science Foundation, 4201 Wilson Boulevard, Arlington, Virginia 22230
Abstract Examination of African barbed bone points recovered from Holocene sites provides a context to interpret three Late Pleistocene occurrences from Katanda and Ishango, Zaire, and White Paintings Shelter, Botswana. In sites dated to ca. 10,000 BP and younger, such artifacts are found widely distributed across the Sahara Desert, the Sahel, the Nile, and the East African Lakes. They are present in both ceramic and aceramic contexts, sometimes associated with domesticates. The almost-universal presence of fish remains indicates a subsistence adaptation which incorporates a riverine/lacustrine component. Typologically these points exhibit sufficient similarity in form and method of manufacture to be subsumed within a single African “tradition.” They are absent at Fayum, where a distinct Natufian form occurs. Specimens dating to ca. 20,000 BP at Ishango, possibly a similar age at White Paintings Shelter, and up to 90,000 BP at Katanda clearly fall within this same African tradition and thus indicate a very long-term continuity which crosses traditionally conceived sub-Saharan cultural boundaries.
'Divorcing the Late Upper Palaeolithic demographic histories of mtDNA haplogroups M1 and U6 in Africa'
Erwan Pennarun, Toomas Kivisild, Ene Metspalu, Mait Metspalu, Tuuli Reisberg, Doron M Behar, Sacha C Jones and Richard Villems
BMC Evolutionary Biology 2012, 12:234
Abstract (provisional)
Background A Southwest Asian origin and dispersal to North Africa in the Early Upper Palaeolithic era has been inferred in previous studies for mtDNA haplogroups M1 and U6. Both haplogroups have been proposed to show similar geographic patterns and shared demographic histories.
Results We report here 24 M1 and 33 U6 new complete mtDNA sequences that allow us to refine the existing phylogeny of these haplogroups. The resulting phylogenetic information was used to genotype a further 131 M1 and 91 U6 samples to determine the geographic spread of their sub-clades. No southwest Asian specific clades for M1 or U6 were discovered. U6 and M1 frequencies in North Africa, the Middle East and Europe do not follow similar patterns, and their sub- clade divisions do not appear to be compatible with their shared history reaching back to the Early Upper Palaeolithic. The Bayesian Skyline Plots testify to non- overlapping phases of expansion, and the haplogroups' phylogenies suggest that there are U6 sub-clades that expanded earlier than those in M1. Some M1 and U6 sub-clades could be linked with certain events. For example, U6a1 and M1b, with their coalescent ages of ~20,000-22,000 years ago and earliest inferred expansion in northwest Africa, could coincide with the flourishing of the Iberomaurusian industry, whilst U6b and M1b1 appeared at the time of the Capsian culture.
Conclusions Our high-resolution phylogenetic dissection of both haplogroups and coalescent time assessments suggest that the extant main branching pattern of both haplogroups arose and diversified in the mid-later Upper Palaeolithic, with some sub-clades concomitantly with the expansion of the Iberomaurusian industry. Carriers of these maternal lineages have been later absorbed into and diversified further during the spread of Afro- Asiatic languages in North and East Africa.
By the way, U6b is still found today among people in Kenya.
Correct. And as we said before the Capsian has NOTHING to do with "Berbers" because the "Berbers" did not exist at that time as Berber languages had not evolved yet. I love how these people try and take a language spoken by people with different biological backgrounds in the modern day and try to extrapolate a single monolithic ethnic, genetic and biological basis for this group SEPARATE from the origin of and beginning of THE LANGUAGE which it is based on.
Man these clowns are desperate. Talking of Berber languages 10,000 years ago is nonsense because they did not exist and therefore there were no Berbers then.
Not to mention that U6 is not a Eurasian marker to begin with as Djehuti mentioned. And if that marker spread to North Africa during the time that Berber languages spread to North Africa from East Africa, then case closed. No amount of mythical Eurasians and Eurasian tool industries can be used to justify calling the origin of the "Berbers" as Eurasian.
They are mixed and that mixture happened relatively recently and PRIMARILY along the coasts of North Africa. But those mixtures are not the basis of or origin of Berber languages and the core of Berber culture.
Common sense should tell you that if the language adopted by the modern Amazighs is Tifinagh or more precisely "neo-tifinagh", which is exclusive to the Tuareg, then OBVIOUSLY that tells you something. If the Berber languages and scripts are associated with mixed populations on the shores of North Africa, then why did they have to go South to the Sahara to find a common script? Not to mention that Tifinagh is the most archaic of the Berber scripts.
And as recent studies have reported, the closest populations to the Tuareg are the Bedja and other nomadic clans of Upper Egypt and Sudan. All of this again confirms and reinforces what we have been saying over and over again. But that won't stop the idiots from spewing nonsense.
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posted
Lakeside Cemeteries in the Sahara: 5000 Years of Holocene Population and Environmental Change
quote:The older occupants have craniofacial dimensions that demonstrate similarities with mid-Holocene occupants of the southern Sahara and Late Pleistocene to early Holocene inhabitants of the Maghreb.
quote:These early occupants abandon the area under arid conditions and, when humid conditions return ~4600 B.C.E., are replaced by a more gracile people with elaborated grave goods including animal bone and ivory ornaments.
quote: Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero with a skeletally robust, trans-Saharan assemblage of Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene human populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.
quote:Figure 6. Principal components analysis of craniofacial dimensions among Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.
Plot of first two principal components extracted from a mean matrix for 17 craniometric variables (Tables 4, 7) in 9 human populations (Table 3) from the Late Pleistocene through the mid-Holocene from the Maghreb and southern Sahara. Seven trans-Saharan populations cluster together, whereas Late Pleistocene Aterians (Ater) and the mid-Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-m) are striking outliers. Axes are scaled by the square root of the corresponding eigenvalue for the principal component. Abbreviations: Ater, Aterian; EMC, eastern Maghreb Capsian; EMI, eastern Maghreb Iberomaurusian; Gob-e, Gobero early Holocene; Gob-m, Gobero mid-Holocene; Mali, Hassi-el-Abiod, Mali; Maur, Mauritania; WMC, western Maghreb Capsian; WMI, western Maghreb Iberomaurusian.
--(doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0002995.g006)
quote:Craniometric data from seven human groups (Tables 3, 4) were subjected to principal components analysis, which allies the early Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-e) with mid-Holocene “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania [18], [26], [27] and with Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and early Holocene Capsians from across the Maghreb (see cluster in Figure 6). The striking similarity between these seven human populations confirms previous suggestions regarding their affinity [18] and is particularly significant given their temporal range (Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene) and trans-Saharan geographic distribution (across the Maghreb to the southern Sahara).
quote: Trans-Saharan craniometry. Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero, who were buried with Kiffian material culture, with Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene humans from the Maghreb and southern Sahara referred to as Iberomaurusians, Capsians and “Mechtoids.” Outliers to this cluster of populations include an older Aterian sample and the mid-Holocene occupants at Gobero associated with Tenerean material culture.
The above encapsulated exactly with the Genetic mutation occurrence of E-V68, E-M81.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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The Kiffian & Tenerean Occupation Of Gobero, Niger: Perhaps The Largest Collection Of Early-Mid Holocene People In Africa
quote:This site has been called Gobero, after the local Tuareg name for the area. About 10,000 years ago (7700–6200 B.C.E.), Gobero was a much less arid environment than it is now. In fact, it was actually a rather humid lake side hometown of sorts for a group of hunter-fisher-gatherers who not only lived their but also buried their dead there. How do we know they were fishing? Well, remains of large nile perch and harpoons were found dating to this time period.
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