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Author Topic: Amazigh people and climate adaptation
osirion
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Northern Africa, especially West of Egypt, is a patch work of genetic types from all the neighboring areas ( Europe, West Asia, East Africa, Saharan and Sub-Saharan Africa ). Unlike NE Africa where there is a bi-directional channel allowing for tropically adapted Africans to move Northward, NW Africa has a bottleneck preventing substantial numbers of tropically adapted Africans to emigrate. However, many of the berger speaking groups of Northern Africa are substantially indigenous Africans. There is no question about the female mediated gene flow from Europe and Western Asia, however, many berber speaking groups are nevertheless primarily African. Given this fact, what accounts for their striking difference in appearance from the founding East African groups that brought the Caspian culture into NW Africa along with the Afro-Asiatic language?

Besides the question of recessive genes which is well known in East African populations, there is also climate adaptation.


An example of climate adaptation that is helpful in illustrating how two groups can be closely related and yet look significantly different are the Ainu and the Andaman Island people.

Example of the Ainu:

 -

Example of the Andman Island people:

 -


As you can see, climate adaptation can make related groups of people appear to be quite different from each other. The same is true of the Bantu and the Berbers to some degree. Though Berber people have a significant non-African input.

What is not disputed is the origin of Berbers and that is with the rest of the Afro-Asiatic speaking groups - essentially the land of Punt.

The Kenya Capsian culture spread Northward up the Nile and then into NW Africa in the last 15K years. This group of East Africans replaced the Iberian culture that was present in NW Africa. The Iberian culture may have been a European group of people that had taken refuge in NW Africa during the last glacial maximum.

Interested in any additional information on the origin of the Caspian culture as well as the original Iberian peoples of NW Africa.

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beyoku
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quote:
This group of East Africans replaced the Iberian culture that was present in NW Africa. The Iberian culture may have been a European group of people that had taken refuge in NW Africa during the last glacial maximum.
And I want to comment on that. Since white people LOVE to think of Modern North Africans as "WHITE" and find a need to see the earliest North Africans as "White" they make the mistake of seeing continuity from the Earliest fossils they find in North Africa to the modern people of North Africa.

They cannot, and DO NOT WISH to see the DIFFERENCE between:

"1" - "Iberian culture" of "European groups taken refuge in NW Africa during the last glacial maximum."

and

"2" - Modern Mixed North Africans whose autochthonous male lineage is African, and whose maternal lineages are African + "Other".....Who may sometimes RESEMBLE the former population.

They try to see these two things as the same when they are quite mutually exclusive, especially as modern North Africans are primarily descendants of population "2" and not "1".

And in the attempt to stop their whole Euro-centric wall from tumbling down they try to work their way backwards. The parent to population "2" needs to be whitened, but to do that they must de-africanize most lineages in Africa so they create a non Africa origin of E* and DE*

What they DONT want to say is that the MODERN population is a group of Africans [probably Neolithic] that show admixture due to "EXTENSIVE FEMALE MEDIATED GENE FLOW". They dont want to say it when it comes to North African but in another case they will give a study THIS NAME:
Extensive Female-Mediated Gene Flow from Sub-Saharan Africa into Near Eastern Arab Populations

Here is a suggestion:
"Extensive Female-Mediated Gene Flow from Eurasia into North African Populations" - Astenb et at 2010. LOL

Tiskoff et al 2009 has made it QUITE CLEAR that the Mozabite sample [Which was 80% E-m81 and 10% E(xE3b) btw] had a genetic makeup that resembled a mixture of Horn Africans, West Africans, various other Africans and Eurasians....but no distinct "North African" cluster of its own. This would DEFINITELY not be the case if "Berbers" aka "Amazigh" or people in the Maghreb in general where a distinct AFRICAN people separated and or isolated for some 20,30 or 50 THOUSAND years like they want us to believe.

Over all they are confusing or distorting the findings of some Ice Age Eurasians that got "lost" in North Africa - With some Admixed African that came much later and have mixed with some much later Eurasians who happened to have gotten themselves "lost" in North Africa.

2 cents.

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AGÜEYBANÁ II (Mind718)
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quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
There is no question about the female mediated gene flow from Europe and Western Asia, however, many berber speaking groups are nevertheless primarily African. Given this fact, what accounts for their striking difference in appearance from the founding East African groups that brought the Caspian culture into NW Africa along with the Afro-Asiatic language?

You answered your own question, genius. The differences are due to non African gene flow, hence why north coastal Africans also exhibit intermediate body plans between Europeans and S.S.A'S. It's not climate adaptation. Sorry, close thread now.
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osirion
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^ its not enough to explain their adaptive features.

--------------------
Definition of Insanity: Doing the same thing the same way over and over again but expecting different results.

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AGÜEYBANÁ II (Mind718)
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^ [Roll Eyes] Specifically what adaptive features are we talking about here Osirion?
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beyoku
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quote:
Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
^ [Roll Eyes] Specifically what adaptive features are we talking about here Osirion?

yeah what adaptive features ?

They have adapted the same way these "Coloured" people from south Africa have:
 -

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argyle104
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astenb posted:
---------------------------
---------------------------


I don't see what South Africans have to do with with Northern Africans.


Why don't you do the scholarly way and inform us of the point of your post.

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argyle104
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A bunch of non-degreed dumb asses obsessed with race and not knowing the slightest of what they're talking about.


Who says the way a group of people look is because of climate or environment?


Somebody needs to educate you morons on natural selection of humans and also natural mutations of human genes.

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osirion
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^ Who say climate and environment affects natural selection? Are you kidding me? You are joking right? So you haven't noticed how skin color is the result of UV radiation?

Come now, are you trying to be funny?

--------------------
Definition of Insanity: Doing the same thing the same way over and over again but expecting different results.

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beyoku
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quote:
Originally posted by argyle104:
astenb posted:
---------------------------
---------------------------


I don't see what South Africans have to do with with Northern Africans.


Why don't you do the scholarly way and inform us of the point of your post.

From Tishkoff et al.

 -

" We identified 14 ancestral population clusters in Africa that correlate with self-described ethnicity and shared cultural and/or linguistic properties. We observe high levels of mixed ancestry in most populations, reflecting historic migration events across the continent"

Mozabite:
-Niger Kordofanian (Orange)
-Cushitic (Purple)
-Eurasian (Blue)

Cape "Coloured" Mixed Ancestry:
-Niger Kordofanian (Orange)
-Cushitic (Purple)
-Eurasian (Blue)
-Khoisan (Green)

Both of these populations have KNOWN HISTORICAL and or Prehistorical Admixture. Cape "Coloured" Africans [With Enough admixture from Euros and Asians to view themselves as DISTINCT] share the same genetic clusters as the Mozabite with the addition of Khoisan Ancestry. Form this standpoint there is no "adaptation" to "North Africa". "Admixture" can easily explain the skin tone and phenotype of the Mozabites, they same way it explains that of the Cape "Coloured" peoples.

Conclusion:
Cape Coloured = Mixed Africans.
Mozabite = Heavily mixed Africans.
3 Ancestral components of that mixture overlaps in both populations:
-Niger Kordofanian (Orange)
-Cushitic (Purple)
-Eurasian (Blue)

They vary in frequency between both populations. Cape colored poeple recognize some of their Ancestry is from "Black Peoples". Mozabites and white people run from the fact and dont recognize it at all.

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osirion
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^ According to your post the Mozabites are 1/2 Black African and yet many are very much the same as Europeans.

--------------------
Definition of Insanity: Doing the same thing the same way over and over again but expecting different results.

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beyoku
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That is not according to my post though, that is according to tishkoff.
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osirion
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^ that means that they have climate adaptation rather than just simply admixture in order to account for their features. There is also sexual selection so that is just a bit too much to work out.

One cannot unscramble scrambled eggs.

--------------------
Definition of Insanity: Doing the same thing the same way over and over again but expecting different results.

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The Explorer
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Never heard of coastal northwestern Africa serving as a LGM refugium for Europeans. While assemblages found in the region suggest that the region was inhabited earlier in the Upper Paleolithic, the oldest human remains in that general area date to at most, the EpiPaleolithic.

--------------------
Your best defense is FACTS!

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AGÜEYBANÁ II (Mind718)
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Osirion, I'm still waiting for you to elaborate on what adaptive features you are referring to, specifically identify these features, thanks.
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AGÜEYBANÁ II (Mind718)
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quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Never heard of coastal northwestern Africa serving as a LGM refugium for Europeans. While assemblages found in the region suggest that the region was inhabited earlier in the Upper Paleolithic, the oldest human remains in that general area date to at most, the EpiPaleolithic.

Indeed, a point I was going to get to if Osirion would answer questions instead of dodging them.
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The Explorer
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To correct my earlier statement, I should say rather: "The oldest human remains with fully "modern" morphology [aside from non-morphological quantitative features like robusticity] in that general area date to at most, the EpiPaleolithic."

The better preserved of the Aterian specimens, while considered "modern", are claimed to host a combination of "plesiomorphic" and "modern" morphological traits.

--------------------
Your best defense is FACTS!

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zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
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^Can anyone post a recapped timeline for the settlement of North Africa? Something like:

80,000 BC- "Methchoid" types
50,000 BC- Migration by Iberian types
etc etc

------------------

Also can someone post a critique of Tishkoff's study referenced above by ASTENB?
What are some areas that are questionable or need more clarification? Sampling?
Conclusion? Analysis model?

For example why were only the
Mozabites from Algeria relatively near the
Mediterranean sampled and used as "representative"
of Africa's vast Saharan region? Tishkoff's category
'Western Eurasian/Saharan Africans" seems strange.
If one wants to capture the Sahara why do only
a slice of Algeria relatively near the Mediterranean?
What happened to huge areas in Mali, Chad and Niger?

And why the big lump sum category 'Eurasian' as a
point of comparison? Why not a narrower split
clearly identifying European genetic patterns,
then a similarly specific 'Asian' pattern- just
as narrow categories are used for African peoples?
We have East, West, Central, and Southern Africans
broken out by Tishkoff et al, so why not also
break out the massive "Eurasian" category? And
strangely, no North African grouping is made,
only something labeled "Saharan" which is curiously
based on an area near the Mediteranean.

Just sayin...


Tishkoff, et al. (2009) The Genetic Structure and History of Africans and African Americans. SCIENCE. VOl 324. 22 May 2009

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osirion
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quote:
Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
Osirion, I'm still waiting for you to elaborate on what adaptive features you are referring to, specifically identify these features, thanks.

You mean like Leucoderm?
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osirion
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quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
To correct my earlier statement, I should say rather: "The oldest human remains with fully "modern" morphology [aside from non-morphological quantitative features like robusticity] in that general area date to at most, the EpiPaleolithic."

The better preserved of the Aterian specimens, while considered "modern", are claimed to host a combination of "plesiomorphic" and "modern" morphological traits.

Data obtained during an ongoing dental investigation of African populations address two long-standing, hotly debated questions.

First, was there genetic continuity between Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and later northwest Africans (e.g., Capsians, Berbers, Guanche)?

Second, were skeletally-robust Iberomaurusians and northeast African Nubians variants of the same population?

Iberomaurusians from Taforalt in Morocco and Afalou-Bou-Rhummel in Algeria, Nubians from Jebel Sahaba in Sudan, post-Pleistocene Capsians from Algeria and Tunisia, and a series of other samples were statistically compared using 29 discrete dental traits to help estimate diachronic local and regional affinities. Results revealed:

(1) a relationship between the Iberomaurusians, particularly those from Taforalt, and later Maghreb and other North African samples, and (2) a divergence among contemporaneous Iberomaurusians and Nubian samples. Thus, some measure of long-term population continuity in the Maghreb and surrounding region is supported, whereas greater North African population heterogenity during the Late Pleistocene is implied.

----------------------

Essentially there was a population of Ibero Maurusians that were not related to Cushitic people of the Nile. We know that the Capsian culture is Cushitic in origin. What we have is a mixture of populations as a result on Cushitic migration into NW Africa resulting in heterogenity.

Ibero-Maurusian are likely European people that took refuge in NW Africa. They mixed with Cushitic people. It is more about cultural anthropology than skeletal analysis. Ibero-Maurusian culture is connect to Europe where as the Capsian culture is connected to Kenya.

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The Explorer
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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan:

^Can anyone post a recapped timeline for the settlement of North Africa? Something like:

80,000 BC- "Methchoid" types
50,000 BC- Migration by Iberian types
etc etc

Again, I don't know of "Iberian" specimens in northwestern Africa, presumably of the LGM era. The Aterian specimens are certainly not representative of such, which are associated with complexes predating the LGM, nor are the EpiPaleolithic so-called "Mechtoid" specimens, which are generally dated onwards from a period when the LGM was winding down. If either of these specimens have been located in the Iberian peninsula and dated older than the African examples, as opposed to vice versa, I'd like to examine such material that attests to such state of affairs.

The Aterian specimens [many of which are not complete to some degree or another; though the Dar es Soltane 5 and Temara 2 specimens have preserved sufficient cranial elements to use them for reasonably-informative inter-cranial comparisons] are dated according to the layers in which they were recovered, with carbon-dating ranging from late mid-Paleolithic or early Upper Paleolithic [~ 41 ky ago] to the Upper Paleolithic [30 ky ago +/-].

Several publications had put forth that there was archeological and/or spatial gap between the Aterian groups and the EpiPaleolithic ones, in the main sites where the former had been located--i.e. essentially the period of the LGM!...although a case--as an exception to the aforementioned--has been made that the specimens found in the Haua Fteah cave in Cyrenaica, Libya, fill in the spatial gap between the Aterian and the EpiPaleolithic record; this has been predicated on the understanding that layers extending from recent era to the EpiPaleolithic collection, along with the Upper Paleolithic Dabban industry to the Libyan pre-Aurignacian complex--named "Mode 4 industry" and the remaining Paleolithic period associated "modern humans", the Levalloiso-Mousterian/Aterian Paleolithic industry, had been identified respectively in the said region. If any of these complexes have been duplicated in the Iberian peninsula, as in the very states that they exist on the African continent, I'd like to hear about the details.

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zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
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quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
[QUOTE]Data obtained during an ongoing dental investigation of African populations address two long-standing, hotly debated questions.

First, was there genetic continuity between Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and later northwest Africans (e.g., Capsians, Berbers, Guanche)?

Second, were skeletally-robust Iberomaurusians and northeast African Nubians variants of the same population?

Iberomaurusians from Taforalt in Morocco and Afalou-Bou-Rhummel in Algeria, Nubians from Jebel Sahaba in Sudan, post-Pleistocene Capsians from Algeria and Tunisia, and a series of other samples were statistically compared using 29 discrete dental traits to help estimate diachronic local and regional affinities. Results revealed:

(1) a relationship between the Iberomaurusians, particularly those from Taforalt, and later Maghreb and other North African samples, and (2) a divergence among contemporaneous Iberomaurusians and Nubian samples. Thus, some measure of long-term population continuity in the Maghreb and surrounding region is supported, whereas greater North African population heterogenity during the Late Pleistocene is implied.

----------------------

Essentially there was a population of Ibero Maurusians that were not related to Cushitic people of the Nile. We know that the Capsian culture is Cushitic in origin. What we have is a mixture of populations as a result on Cushitic migration into NW Africa resulting in heterogenity.

Ibero-Maurusian are likely European people that took refuge in NW Africa. They mixed with Cushitic people. It is more about cultural anthropology than skeletal analysis. Ibero-Maurusian culture is connect to Europe where as the Capsian culture is connected to Kenya.

What study is this from?
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AGÜEYBANÁ II (Mind718)
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quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
quote:
Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
Osirion, I'm still waiting for you to elaborate on what adaptive features you are referring to, specifically identify these features, thanks.

You mean like Leucoderm?
Are you asking me? Or is pale skin the specific adaptive feature you're speaking of?

If it is then you know well enough about the non African admixture in these coastal north Africans. And hence this is easily explained through admixture, again which is why these same individuals show intermediate body plans, along with the fact that there is no long term continuity of anatomically modern humans with recent humans in northern Africa. If not you can note the following.

Genetic Evidence for the Convergent Evolution of Light Skin in Europeans and
East Asians
Heather L. Norton,*1 Rick A. Kittles


quote:
In contrast, the **ancestral allele** associated with **dark pigmentation** has a shared high frequency in **sub- Saharan African and Island Melanesians**.A notable exception is the relatively lightly pigmented San population of Southern Africa where the **derived allele** predominates (93%), although this may be simply due to small sample size (n514). The distributions of the **derived and ancestral alleles** at TYR A192C, MATP C374G, and SLC24A5 A111G are consistent with the FST results suggesting strong Europeans pecific divergence at these loci. The *derived allele* at TYR, 192*A (previously linked with lighter
pigmentation [Shriver et al. 2003]), has a frequency of 38% among European populations but a frequency of only 14% among non-Europeans. The differences between Europeans and non-Europeans for the MATP 374*G and SLC24A5 111*A alleles (both derived alleles associated with lighter pigmentation) were even more striking (MATP European 5 87%; MATP non-European 5 17%; SLC24A5 European 5 100%; SLC24A5 non-European 5 46%). The frequency of the SLC24A5 111*A allele outside of Europe is largely accounted for by high frequencies in geographically proximate populations in northern Africa, the Middle East, and Pakistan (ranging from 62% to 100%).

^The frequency of the SLC24A5 111*A allele outside of Europe is largely accounted for by high frequencies in geographically proximate
populations in northern Africa, the Middle East, and Pakistan (ranging from 62% to 100%). What does this tell you Osirion?

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osirion
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^ it implies that Berbers are actually more European than Tishkoff suggests.

--------------------
Definition of Insanity: Doing the same thing the same way over and over again but expecting different results.

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The Explorer
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quote:

Iberomaurusians from Taforalt in Morocco and Afalou-Bou-Rhummel in Algeria, Nubians from Jebel Sahaba in Sudan, post-Pleistocene Capsians from Algeria and Tunisia, and a series of other samples were statistically compared using 29 discrete dental traits to help estimate diachronic local and regional affinities. Results revealed:

(1) a relationship between the Iberomaurusians, particularly those from Taforalt, and later Maghreb and other North African samples, and (2) a divergence among contemporaneous Iberomaurusians and Nubian samples. Thus, some measure of long-term population continuity in the Maghreb and surrounding region is supported, whereas greater North African population heterogenity during the Late Pleistocene is implied.

Supposed dental traits does not converge with the fact that said coastal northwestern specimens do not form some homogeneous cranial type, which a number of researchers had been compelled to acknowledge, despite attempts to force them into a preconceived taxonomic type(s) spanning several of some or the other of the above-mentioned.

As I pointed out here before, Briggs came up with four types, three of which were described as "Mediterranean" sub-types, and the remainder as a mixture of these "Mediterranean" sub-types, namely "Type A", "Type B", "Type C", and "Type D".

Chamla on the other hand, came up with two primary "types" and a derivative type namely, the "Mectha-Afalou", the "Mediterranean" types-- the "Protomediterranean"--and the "Mechtoids", respectively. The "Mechta-Afalou" were associated with the "Ibero-Maurusian" industry, while the latter two were associated with the "Capsian" industry, with the Mechtoids being representative of the Upper Capsian industry [which is interesting, considering that Chamla saw them as the "gracile" version of the "Mechta-Afalou" type, whom as noted, had been associated with Ibero-Maurusian industry]. The "Mechta-Afalou" were considered to be generally more robust than the latter Capsian groups.

Recalling another example, noting differences in the EpiPaleolithic and early Holocene cranial collection:

 -

As we can see in the above, estimation is made that both specimens with no supposed "Negro" qualities and those with "Negro" qualities have been found in the Sudan. The same applies to the Maghreb. If these represented Europeans presumably from the Iberian region, how come we have such diversity that is far flung to the eastern portion of Africa; how come some supposedly have "Negro" like qualities about them, while others are claimed to not? Yet, how is it that despite such dichotomy, some insist that they represent a taxonomic type? And if the supposed "non-Negroid" types mentioned represented some Iberian group, why are they in of themselves also clearly varied? Moreover, where do we come across the same variety in the Iberian peninsula, presumably predating the African examples, along with their cultural precedents in Iberia? I have noticed much silence on these questions, yet still continue to come across those who speak of "Iberian" north Africans.

Note, another example showing distinctions in coastal northwestern African specimens, both recent, Neolithic and EpiPaleolithic...

 -

Note the positions of Cro-Magnon I, the Algerian Neolithic, the composite "Taforalt and Afalou", the recent Algerians, Tunisians, and a composite "Berber" sample.

And from Brace et al. (2005)...

It is clear, however, that they [Basques] do not represent a survival of the kind of craniofacial form indicated by Cro-Magnon any more than do the Canary Islanders, nor does either sample tie in with the Berbers of North Africa as has previously been claimed (37, 44-45).

...

To test the analysis shown in Fig. 3, Cro-Magnon, represented by the x in Fig. 4, was removed from the European Upper Palaeolithic sample and run as a single individual. Interestingly enough, Cro-Magnon is not close to any more recent sample. Clearly Cro-Magnon is not the same as the Basque or Canary Island samples.



quote:


Essentially there was a population of Ibero Maurusians that were not related to Cushitic people of the Nile. We know that the Capsian culture is Cushitic in origin. What we have is a mixture of populations as a result on Cushitic migration into NW Africa resulting in heterogenity.

Ibero-Maurusian are likely European people that took refuge in NW Africa. They mixed with Cushitic people.

How did the Jebel Sahaba specimens become synonymous with "Cushitic people"?
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Doctoris Scientia
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quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
^ it implies that Berbers are actually more European than Tishkoff suggests.

What are you talking about; the gene for light skin found among North Africans dosen't exactly parallel the specific ancestral components that make up that population.

Just because it's found among North Africans and other non-Europeans at a frequency of 62-100% dosen't mean that these people are 62-100% European.

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AGÜEYBANÁ II (Mind718)
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quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
^ it implies that Berbers are actually more European than Tishkoff suggests.

No, all it tells us is why geographically proximate populations in northern Africa have lighter skin akin to Europeans.

It tells us how much this allele associated with lighterskin is present in these populations(62-100%), but not how much European genes are actually found in Berber speakers, don't confuse the two.

It implies that an allele for lighter skin was passed on to geographically proximate populations in northern Africa through said admixture, admixture as Tishkoff notes, which is all that's needed.

From there, this allele most likely spread through sexual selection and genetic drift, not because more admixture from Europeans.

As we can see from Tishkoff it's not there as heavily present as one would think, but the allele is, which can easily spread in a population due to sexual selection and genetic drift without any further admixture from Europeans.

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Mike111
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Doc - you are wasting your time, osirion has a self actualization agenda; and no amount of logic or data is going to sway him. So be kind, tell him that the White and mixed-race people of North Africa are really full fledged Berbers and Arabs - then maybe he will go away.
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osirion
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quote:
Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
^ it implies that Berbers are actually more European than Tishkoff suggests.

No, all it tells us is why geographically proximate populations in northern Africa have lighter skin akin to Europeans.

It tells us how much this allele associated with lighterskin is present in these populations(62-100%), but not how much European genes are actually found in Berber speakers, don't confuse the two.

It implies that an allele for lighter skin was passed on to geographically proximate populations in northern Africa through said admixture, admixture as Tishkoff notes, which is all that's needed.

From there, this allele most likely spread through sexual selection and genetic drift, not because more admixture from Europeans.

As we can see from Tishkoff it's not there as heavily present as one would think, but the allele is, which can easily spread in a population due to sexual selection and genetic drift without any further admixture from Europeans.

Basically what you are saying was my original position. However, it also means that the climate allowed for this gene to be expressed. If this allele was detrimental in the North African climate it certainly would not be represented in 62-100 percent of the population.
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AGÜEYBANÁ II (Mind718)
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quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
Basically what you are saying was my original position.

How? Elaborate please, because I don't think so.


quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
However, it also means that the climate allowed for this gene to be expressed. If this allele was detrimental in the North African climate it certainly would not be represented in 62-100 percent of the population.

Who said the allele was detrimental? The skin color the allele causes is detrimental in this African environment, the allele doesn't discriminate and it gets passed on regardless, a European born in Africa is not going to automatically turn darkskinned because his/her skin color is not suited for the environment.

So again, you're wrong, and what it means is that sexual selection and genetic drift helped spread this allele in geographically proximate populations in northern Africa, has nothing at all to do with climate allowing for it to spread sorry kiddo.

If that were the case then the leucoderm phenotype associated with Europeans would have arose in situ Africa instead of being introduced genetically. If the climate would have allowed for this change instead of sexual selection and genetic drift we wouldn't see this; New data tells us more about cancer incidence in North Africa.

^^This wouldn't occur if north Africa's climate was advantageous to this lighter skin. What makes sense, is sexual selection and/or genetic drift which ultimately spread this allele regardless of the detrimental results the allele caused in the environment of north Africa.

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quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
Northern Africa, especially West of Egypt, is a patch work of genetic types from all the neighboring areas ( Europe, West Asia, East Africa, Saharan and Sub-Saharan Africa ). Unlike NE Africa where there is a bi-directional channel allowing for tropically adapted Africans to move Northward, NW Africa has a bottleneck preventing substantial numbers of tropically adapted Africans to emigrate. However, many of the berger speaking groups of Northern Africa are substantially indigenous Africans. There is no question about the female mediated gene flow from Europe and Western Asia, however, many berber speaking groups are nevertheless primarily African. Given this fact, what accounts for their striking difference in appearance from the founding East African groups that brought the Caspian culture into NW Africa along with the Afro-Asiatic language?

Besides the question of recessive genes which is well known in East African populations, there is also climate adaptation.


An example of climate adaptation that is helpful in illustrating how two groups can be closely related and yet look significantly different are the Ainu and the Andaman Island people.

Example of the Ainu:

 -

Example of the Andman Island people:

 -


As you can see, climate adaptation can make related groups of people appear to be quite different from each other. The same is true of the Bantu and the Berbers to some degree. Though Berber people have a significant non-African input.

What is not disputed is the origin of Berbers and that is with the rest of the Afro-Asiatic speaking groups - essentially the land of Punt.

The Kenya Capsian culture spread Northward up the Nile and then into NW Africa in the last 15K years. This group of East Africans replaced the Iberian culture that was present in NW Africa. The Iberian culture may have been a European group of people that had taken refuge in NW Africa during the last glacial maximum.

Interested in any additional information on the origin of the Caspian culture as well as the original Iberian peoples of NW Africa.

OMG [Confused] I don't know whether to laugh or cry; the longer some people are here the less they absorb information I guess. The genetics of the Berbers has been dealt with over and over again on this forum. Am I missing something or is there something about human beings intermixing that Osirion and certain other "Africans" can not accept!

Please tell me he did not just claim Andaman Islanders and Ainu were "closely related" genetically. [Roll Eyes]

Osirion - I'm trying not to be sarcastic so I will just add that this is the first time I've ever seen a posting here or for that matter on any blog in which everything stated in scientific fashion is demonstrably wrong!

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quote:
Originally posted by argyle104:
A bunch of non-degreed dumb asses obsessed with race and not knowing the slightest of what they're talking about.


Who says the way a group of people look is because of climate or environment?


Somebody needs to educate you morons on natural selection of humans and also natural mutations of human genes.

LOL! - From what I've seen on the internet, North Africans have their own special, unscientifically grounded ideas of how natural selection works.
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dana marniche

Spoken words by you hit home.

I have no clue why people can't see that North Africa has been home to people of a lighter hue because of migrations.

Peace

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quote:
Originally posted by Mike111:
Doc - you are wasting your time, osirion has a self actualization agenda; and no amount of logic or data is going to sway him. So be kind, tell him that the White and mixed-race people of North Africa are really full fledged Berbers and Arabs - then maybe he will go away.

I honestly don't know why Mind, Dana, Doc, Explorer or any rational thinking person would waste time on Orion??
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Mike111
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Jari-Ankhamun - osirion has become rather pathetic of late: he seems to have developed some deep-seated need or desire to deny Black heritage.

Before, he used to just misrepresent facts, but now he just flat-out lies (in the finest tradition of a White person) can you say WANNABE!!!

Unfortunately for him, like all the others of his ilk, he is also rather stupid. He uses examples that prove the REVERSE!

dana marniche - osirion was quite correct in saying that Ainu and Andaman Islanders are closely connected genetically - they share the Haplogroup "D"


Haplogroup D (Y-DNA)

The Ainu people of Japan is notable for possessing almost exclusively Haplogroup D chromosomes In human genetics, Haplogroup D (M174) is a Y-chromosome haplogroup.D is believed to have originated in Africa some 50,000 years before present. Along with haplogroup E, D contains the distinctive YAP polymorphism, which indicates their common ancestry. Both D and E also contain the M168 change, which is present in all Y-chromosome haplogroups except A and B. Like haplogroup C, D is believed to represent a great coastal migration along southern Asia, from Arabia to Southeast Asia and thence northward to populate East Asia.

It is found today at high frequency among populations in Tibet, the Japanese archipelago, and the Andaman Islands, though curiously not in India. The Ainu of Japan and the Jarawa and Onge of the Andaman Islands are notable for possessing almost exclusively Haplogroup D chromosomes, although Haplogroup C chromosomes also occur among the Ainu at a frequency of approximately 10%, similar to the Japanese. Haplogroup D chromosomes are also found at low to moderate frequencies among all the populations of Central and Northeast Asia as well as the Han and Miao-Yao peoples of China and among several minority populations of Yunnan that speak Tibeto-Burman languages and reside in close proximity to the Tibetans. Unlike haplogroup C, it did not travel from Asia to the New World.


BUT WHO ARE THE AINU???

The Jomon (35,000 B.C.) and later the Ainu (13,000 B.C.) were the original Black settlers of Japan, they were part of the second Out of Africa migration circa 55,000 B.C. They were invaded and conquered by a Mongol tribe called the "Yayoi" (modern Japanese) in 350 B.C.

Jomon Mask
 -

From Wiki:

The Ainu are an indigenous ethnic group of Japan and Russian Federation. Historically they spoke the Ainu language and related varieties and lived in Hokkaidō, the Kuril Islands, and much of Sakhalin. Most of those who identify themselves as Ainu still live in this same region, though the exact number of living Ainu is unknown. This is due to ethnic issues in Japan resulting in those with Ainu backgrounds hiding their identities and confusion over mixed heritages. Official estimates of the population are of around 25,000, whilst unofficially the number is upwards of 200,000 people.


Intermarriages between Japanese and Ainu were actively promoted by the Ainu to lessen the chances of discrimination against their offspring. As a result, many Ainu are indistinguishable from their Japanese neighbors.


Here is what even a mixed Ainu, looked like around 1900.
(can you say Black man)?

 -

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Mike111
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Lion cub - I hope that you are paying attention; like osirion - your "Please don't let me have Black ancestors" threads are pathetic and silly.

BTW - If you guys want to be White, nobody cares!
The issue is your lies and misrepresentations to justify it.

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osirion
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quote:
Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
Basically what you are saying was my original position.

How? Elaborate please, because I don't think so.


quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
However, it also means that the climate allowed for this gene to be expressed. If this allele was detrimental in the North African climate it certainly would not be represented in 62-100 percent of the population.

Who said the allele was detrimental? The skin color the allele causes is detrimental in this African environment, the allele doesn't discriminate and it gets passed on regardless, a European born in Africa is not going to automatically turn darkskinned because his/her skin color is not suited for the environment.

So again, you're wrong, and what it means is that sexual selection and genetic drift helped spread this allele in geographically proximate populations in northern Africa, has nothing at all to do with climate allowing for it to spread sorry kiddo.

If that were the case then the leucoderm phenotype associated with Europeans would have arose in situ Africa instead of being introduced genetically. If the climate would have allowed for this change instead of sexual selection and genetic drift we wouldn't see this; New data tells us more about cancer incidence in North Africa.

^^This wouldn't occur if north Africa's climate was advantageous to this lighter skin. What makes sense, is sexual selection and/or genetic drift which ultimately spread this allele regardless of the detrimental results the allele caused in the environment of north Africa.

If it was sufficiently detrimental it would be filtered out. Period. Don't need a bunch of double talk for that.
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
Northern Africa, especially West of Egypt, is a patch work of genetic types from all the neighboring areas ( Europe, West Asia, East Africa, Saharan and Sub-Saharan Africa ). Unlike NE Africa where there is a bi-directional channel allowing for tropically adapted Africans to move Northward, NW Africa has a bottleneck preventing substantial numbers of tropically adapted Africans to emigrate. However, many of the berger speaking groups of Northern Africa are substantially indigenous Africans. There is no question about the female mediated gene flow from Europe and Western Asia, however, many berber speaking groups are nevertheless primarily African. Given this fact, what accounts for their striking difference in appearance from the founding East African groups that brought the Caspian culture into NW Africa along with the Afro-Asiatic language?

Besides the question of recessive genes which is well known in East African populations, there is also climate adaptation.


An example of climate adaptation that is helpful in illustrating how two groups can be closely related and yet look significantly different are the Ainu and the Andaman Island people.

Example of the Ainu:

 -

Example of the Andman Island people:

 -


As you can see, climate adaptation can make related groups of people appear to be quite different from each other. The same is true of the Bantu and the Berbers to some degree. Though Berber people have a significant non-African input.

What is not disputed is the origin of Berbers and that is with the rest of the Afro-Asiatic speaking groups - essentially the land of Punt.

The Kenya Capsian culture spread Northward up the Nile and then into NW Africa in the last 15K years. This group of East Africans replaced the Iberian culture that was present in NW Africa. The Iberian culture may have been a European group of people that had taken refuge in NW Africa during the last glacial maximum.

Interested in any additional information on the origin of the Caspian culture as well as the original Iberian peoples of NW Africa.

OMG [Confused] I don't know whether to laugh or cry; the longer some people are here the less they absorb information I guess. The genetics of the Berbers has been dealt with over and over again on this forum. Am I missing something or is there something about human beings intermixing that Osirion and certain other "Africans" can not accept!

Please tell me he did not just claim Andaman Islanders and Ainu were "closely related" genetically. [Roll Eyes]

Osirion - I'm trying not to be sarcastic so I will just add that this is the first time I've ever seen a posting here or for that matter on any blog in which everything stated in scientific fashion is demonstrably wrong!

Genetic testing of the Ainu people has shown them to belong mainly to Y-haplogroup D2.[22] Y-DNA haplogroup D2 is found frequently throughout the Japanese Archipelago including Okinawa. The only places outside of Japan in which Y-haplogroup D is common are Tibet and the Andaman Islands in the Indian Ocean.[23]

--------------

This makes them related.

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quote:
Originally posted by Mike111:
Lion cub - I hope that you are paying attention; like osirion - your "Please don't let me have Black ancestors" threads are pathetic and silly.

BTW - If you guys want to be White, nobody cares!
The issue is your lies and misrepresentations to justify it.

I think I said that Bantu and Berbers are related. However, I have yet to see enough evidence for genetic admixture to explain the pale skin of Atlas Berbers.
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osirion
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As for the Ainu and the Andaman Islanders. Apparently the theory is that the Ainu were part of the first wave of Africans that settle New Guinea and Australia.

I think we all know what the Australians and the Melanesians look like? And we are aware the Andaman Island people are also of the same stock as that first wave of Africans that made it to Australia?

Right?


-----

Some have speculated that the Ainu may be descendants of a prehistoric group of humans that also produced indigenous Australian peoples. In Steve Olson's book Mapping Human History, page 133, he describes the discovery of fossils dating back 10,000 years, representing the remains of the Jōmon, a group whose facial features more closely resemble those of the indigenous peoples of New Guinea and Australia.

--------------------
Definition of Insanity: Doing the same thing the same way over and over again but expecting different results.

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quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike111:
Lion cub - I hope that you are paying attention; like osirion - your "Please don't let me have Black ancestors" threads are pathetic and silly.

BTW - If you guys want to be White, nobody cares!
The issue is your lies and misrepresentations to justify it.

I think I said that Bantu and Berbers are related. However, I have yet to see enough evidence for genetic admixture to explain the pale skin of Atlas Berbers.
osirion you are truly pathetic: The Atlas Mountains are a mountain range across a northern stretch of Africa extending about 2,500 km (1,500 miles) through Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia.

As you WELL KNOW, the "So-Called" Berbers in all of those countries do not all look alike. You are purposely generalizing, because you know that once you pick out a country, I will IMMEDIATELY respond with a history of that country and it's White INVADER history - thus it's White admixture! You are one sorry puppy.

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Mike111
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^osirion - You probably detect a certain disdain in my tone towards you. But it is really not disdain, it is more like disgust.

In countries like Tunisia, the indigenous Blacks have almost been depopulated, and driven into the deserts south.

In the place of their Black societies, the White invaders have established anti-Black Police states in their countries, to insure that they don't come back.

ANTI-BLACK POLICE STATES IN AFRICA!!!!
(Remind anyone of South Africa)?

Yet rather than show some semblance of sympathy for the terrible wrong done to these people, you join in trying to steal their identity and history.

You are truly worthy of disgust.

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike111:


You are truly worthy of disgust.

Finally something truthful coming out of your mouth Mike111, see what happens when you keep your Turkish obsession at bay.. [Wink]

Progress!! Mike111 Progress!!

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Mike111
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quote:
Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike111:


You are truly worthy of disgust.

Finally something truthful coming out of your mouth Mike111, see what happens when you keep your Turkish obsession at bay.. [Wink]

Progress!! Mike111 Progress!!

Ass-hole; Who do you think some of those White invaders were????
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Mike111
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Jari-Ankhamun - This MUST be said:

Do you kids have any idea of just how fuching stupid you all are??

You want to make snide comments and argue sh1t that you have absolutely NO knowledge of or information on.

The problem is, these are important subjects that you ass-holes are fuching around with. The suffering of REAL Berbers in North Africa is nothing to make light of. Yet in your mental laziness and just plain stupidity that is exactly what you are doing.

Here is a heads-up ass-hole;
read this Wiki article about Tunisia, even this will give you an idea what those people have gone through.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunisia

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AGÜEYBANÁ II (Mind718)
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quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
quote:
Originally posted by MindoverMatter718:
quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
Basically what you are saying was my original position.

How? Elaborate please, because I don't think so.


quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
However, it also means that the climate allowed for this gene to be expressed. If this allele was detrimental in the North African climate it certainly would not be represented in 62-100 percent of the population.

Who said the allele was detrimental? The skin color the allele causes is detrimental in this African environment, the allele doesn't discriminate and it gets passed on regardless, a European born in Africa is not going to automatically turn darkskinned because his/her skin color is not suited for the environment.

So again, you're wrong, and what it means is that sexual selection and genetic drift helped spread this allele in geographically proximate populations in northern Africa, has nothing at all to do with climate allowing for it to spread sorry kiddo.

If that were the case then the leucoderm phenotype associated with Europeans would have arose in situ Africa instead of being introduced genetically. If the climate would have allowed for this change instead of sexual selection and genetic drift we wouldn't see this; New data tells us more about cancer incidence in North Africa.

^^This wouldn't occur if north Africa's climate was advantageous to this lighter skin. What makes sense, is sexual selection and/or genetic drift which ultimately spread this allele regardless of the detrimental results the allele caused in the environment of north Africa.

If it was sufficiently detrimental it would be filtered out.
How so? And says who, you? LOL.

quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
Period. Don't need a bunch of double talk for that.

So stop doing it.


quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
However, I have yet to see enough evidence for genetic admixture to explain the pale skin of Atlas Berbers.

Jeeeeeez, you can't be serious, are you really that much of a dullard?

So you're telling me the derived SLC24A5 111*A allele associated with lighterskin ranging from 62-100% in some of these geographically proximate populations in northern Africa is not sufficient enough to explain their lighterskin? [Confused]

Did you ever graduate, from anywhere? LOL

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quote:
Originally posted by Mike111:
Jari-Ankhamun - This MUST be said:

Do you kids have any idea of just how fuching stupid you all are??

You want to make snide comments and argue sh1t that you have absolutely NO knowledge of or information on.

The problem is, these are important subjects that you ass-holes are fuching around with. The suffering of REAL Berbers in North Africa is nothing to make light of. Yet in your mental laziness and just plain stupidity that is exactly what you are doing.

Here is a heads-up ass-hole;
read this Wiki article about Tunisia, even this will give you an idea what those people have gone through.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunisia

Mike111 Why so hostile??
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Mike111
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So osirion, tell me:

When a White criminal like this; (or their mixed-race cohorts) calls themselves Arabs - Which they do.

 -


Or When a White criminal like this; (or their mixed-race cohorts) calls themselves Berbers - Which they do.

 -


DO YOU STILL BELIEVE IT???

If so, then you need to do more reading!!!

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike111:
So osirion, tell me:

When a White criminal like this; (or their mixed-race cohorts) calls themselves Arabs - Which they do.

 -


Or When a White criminal like this; (or their mixed-race cohorts) calls themselves Berbers - Which they do.

 -


DO YOU STILL BELIEVE IT???

If so, then you need to do more reading!!!

So what about Gaddafi?? Is he a Turk posing s a Berber too??
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osirion
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike111:
^osirion - You probably detect a certain disdain in my tone towards you. But it is really not disdain, it is more like disgust.

In countries like Tunisia, the indigenous Blacks have almost been depopulated, and driven into the deserts south.

In the place of their Black societies, the White invaders have established anti-Black Police states in their countries, to insure that they don't come back.

ANTI-BLACK POLICE STATES IN AFRICA!!!!
(Remind anyone of South Africa)?

Yet rather than show some semblance of sympathy for the terrible wrong done to these people, you join in trying to steal their identity and history.

You are truly worthy of disgust.

Don't worry, you are a pathetic sniveling bastard that I never take seriously. All this anti-Turk/White etc stuff. I don't care what you think just provide evidence.

Everyone knows about the history of North Africa. Problem is that these White invaders seem to only show up maternally in genetic reports. Explain that to me? Why isn't most of North Africa R1b and J1 instead of Ethiopic paternally? Why is it mostly White Maternally? And how did they lose their tropical skin color? Either its recessive genes, sexual selection, etc. Either way you call it the fact is that only the more favorable climate could allow for those genes to exist in North Africa.

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