posted
There is now clear evidence that the Upper Egyptians of Ancient times were essentially identical to Somalian people today. This is true on multiple fronts. Horn Africans are essentially the same in appearance as the original rulers of Egypt, but also genetically share the same lineages. Essentially Horn Africans are an isolated population of Egyptians. Their phenotype represents a people closest to what Ancient Egyptian rulers would have looked like.
This is not Afrocentric anymore it is mainstream anthropology.
The only thing that has changed in the mainsteam is the inclusion of Horn Africans as part of the Caucasian race.
Which makes someone like me 75% Caucasian. To me I find that to be a great insult. No one sees me as White. I am considered no different than any other Negro. And there isn't anything about the Caucasus in my peoples history or origin. My peoples history in their present location goes back about 20,000 years. I don't see how roaming Caucasians some how decided to settle in Central Africa. The only thing roaming was my people and some of them followed the rains Northwards. All the genetic evidence points to some Europeans being part us and not the other way around. The only thing close to Caucasian input is from Jews and Arabs into the Horn of Africa and Ethiopia. The Ancient Sabeans were there but they are J1. The Amhara people are part Sabeans and consequently a mixed people. Oromos are not mixed not until recently. As for Somalians, what migration into the Horn could explain M1? Why would all these Indian women simply migrate into the Horn without Indian men? M1 likely is Somalian and I won't believe otherwise until someone can account for its migration into Africa.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Shut up, no ones grouping Ethiopians in the Caucasian race... LOL
And J1 is likely African, since Ethiopian J1 dosen't match any known population outide the Sudan... and the highest frequencies of J* are in places like Socotra and Hadhramaut Yemen.
The fact that Ethiopian J1-M267 dosen't match those found in Yemen or Saudi Arabia debunks admixture. Only 2% of the J1 found in Ethiopia is of recent or historic admixture.
J1* most likely originated along the African Red Sea coast, it would then expand from places surrounding Socotra... people carrying E3b and other lineages would decrease the freguency of J1*, J*, and J1-M267 among people living in Ethiopia and Sudan. Socotra being isolated, continues to have a high freguency of Haplogroup J.
Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ethio-Semitic languages most likely expanded due to political and social reasons and not biological. It likely experienced expansion due to trade affiliation and political dominance. The spread of J1 likely pushed south from places like Eritrea and Eastern Sudan into more Central Ethiopian regions due to genetic drift.
-------------------- Doctoris Scientia Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by osirion: The only thing that has changed in the mainsteam is the inclusion of Horn Africans as part of the Caucasian race.
Which makes someone like me 75% Caucasian. To me I find that to be a great insult. No one sees me as White. I am considered no different than any other Negro. And there isn't anything about the Caucasus in my peoples history or origin. My peoples history in their present location goes back about 20,000 years. I don't see how roaming Caucasians some how decided to settle in Central Africa. The only thing roaming was my people and some of them followed the rains Northwards. All the genetic evidence points to some Europeans being part us and not the other way around. The only thing close to Caucasian input is from Jews and Arabs into the Horn of Africa and Ethiopia. The Ancient Sabeans were there but they are J1. The Amhara people are part Sabeans and consequently a mixed people. Oromos are not mixed not until recently. As for Somalians, what migration into the Horn could explain M1? Why would all these Indian women simply migrate into the Horn without Indian men? M1 likely is Somalian and I won't believe otherwise until someone can account for its migration into Africa.
Sorry again but Amhara weren't mixed from being part Sabeans a black people in ancient Arabia and Meroe. Sabaeans however seem to have absorbed some Iranian Sassanids.
Also, the idea that Ethiopians are partly Caucasian is in no way mainstream because most scientists don't even use racial terminology any more and only speak of biological populations.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ethiopian historians have already debunked that theory by Conti Rossini, the amhara people come from the indigenous African civilization Aksum.
-------------------- I use to live in a room full of mirrors; all I could see was me. I take my spirit and I crash my mirrors, now the whole world is here for me to see. "Jimi Hendrix" Posts: 95 | Registered: May 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
The Sabeans were conquered by the Ethiopians and as a consequence there was non-military migration from Southern Yemen into Ethiopia.
This is well supported.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doctoris Scientia: ^ Shut up, no ones grouping Ethiopians in the Caucasian race... LOL
And J1 is likely African, since Ethiopian J1 dosen't match any known population outide the Sudan... and the highest frequencies of J* are in places like Socotra and Hadhramaut Yemen.
The fact that Ethiopian J1-M267 dosen't match those found in Yemen or Saudi Arabia debunks admixture. Only 2% of the J1 found in Ethiopia is of recent or historic admixture.
J1* most likely originated along the African Red Sea coast, it would then expand from places surrounding Socotra... people carrying E3b and other lineages would decrease the freguency of J1*, J*, and J1-M267 among people living in Ethiopia and Sudan. Socotra being isolated, continues to have a high freguency of Haplogroup J.
Interesting. Do you have a scholarly reference that shows what you say about the uniqueness of J1-M267?
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
Why would a dominant power invite occupied military troops into the heart of it's domain, any military alliance occured during D'mt times, and it being very limited...
"In fact, Sabaean influence has been proven to have been significantly minor, limited to a few localities, and disappeared after a few decades or a century, perhaps representing a trading or military colony in some sort of symbiosis or military alliance with the civilization of Dʿmt or some other proto-Aksumite state."
Ethiopian J1-M267 is of Yemeni or Saudi Arabian origin, Haplogroup J is more than likely of local East African/Socotra/Southern Yemeni origin, therefore you loose you whole Amhara's are mixed point.
The fact that East African J is one more diversified then those found across the Red Sea, and two the J found in Ethiopia and Sudan only match each other and do not decend from anything in niether Southwest Asia or Europe... opens up the door for an East African origin.
J in both East Africa and Southern Yemen most likely developed side by side via parallel evolution without any admixture.
Only 2% of the J in Ethiopia is off recent or historic admixture.
Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ its what happens when you conquer a nation in those days. The women and children become slaves to those who had conquered them. Ethiopians made the Sabeans pay tribute. The daughters of nobility were sent as tribute to the Aksumites. As a result, our Ethiopians royals have been part Yemeni for since 500 BC. The Amhara are in part a result of this mixture.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doctoris Scientia: ^ Shut up, no ones grouping Ethiopians in the Caucasian race... LOL
And J1 is likely African, since Ethiopian J1 dosen't match any known population outide the Sudan... and the highest frequencies of J* are in places like Socotra and Hadhramaut Yemen.
The fact that Ethiopian J1-M267 dosen't match those found in Yemen or Saudi Arabia debunks admixture. Only 2% of the J1 found in Ethiopia is of recent or historic admixture.
J1* most likely originated along the African Red Sea coast, it would then expand from places surrounding Socotra... people carrying E3b and other lineages would decrease the freguency of J1*, J*, and J1-M267 among people living in Ethiopia and Sudan. Socotra being isolated, continues to have a high freguency of Haplogroup J.
Interesting. Do you have a scholarly reference that shows what you say about the uniqueness of J1-M267?
Yeah, here some... also I posted some information on one of your threads on Egypt Search Reloaded.
"Haplogroup J, characterized by the mutation 12f2.1,has been found at a frequency of approximately 18% in Ethiopians, with a relatively higher prevalence among the Amhara, where it has been found to exist at levels as high as 35% , of which about 33% is of the type J-M267, almost all of which was acquired during Neolithic times or earlier, while 2% is of the derived J-M172 type representing admixture due to recent and historic migrations."
Molecular characterisation and population genetics of the DYS458 .2 allelic variant
G. Ferri, C. Robino, M. Alu, D. Luiselli , S. Tofanellid, L. Caciaglid, V. Onofri, S. Pelotti, C. Di Gaetano, F. Crobu, G. Beduschi, C. Capelli
Abstract
We recently found a number of intermediate DYS458 alleles, indicated as .2. This allelic variant is distributed in several populations, but currently no information is available regarding the molecular structure and the genealogical correlation of chromosomes with this variant. The molecular characterisation of such allele, its worldwide distribution and the correlated evolutionary history are the subject of the present paper. Molecular and genealogical data are suggestive of a single origin for the .2 variant. Phylogeographic analysis points to either a Middle East or East African origin, but additional data is necessary to clarify this point. Our results suggest that the .2 variants is a stable polymorphism and that it could be used for population studies.
Copyright 2008 Elsevier Ireland Ltd. All rights reserved.
"Haplogroup J* includes all of J except for J1 and J2. J* is rarely found outside of the island of Socotra, where it is quite frequent at 71.4%."
Both J1 and J* are concentrated in the vicinity of East Africa/Socotra/Southern Yemen among populations who are biologically "Saharo-Tropical African variants".
"While in this study, the paraphyetic family of DYS458 .2 chromosomes showed frequency peaks in North African, East African and the Caucasus samples, they differ in their within-paragroup phylogenetic arrangement. The East African pattern is likened to the latter pattern just mentioned, while North African and the Caucasus paraphyletic arrangements are just as mentioned above respectively, showing relatively more discernable within-paragroup [sub-clade] monophyletic relationships. The point of inquiry now, is to see if any potential "Middle Eastern" paraphyletic family of this haplogroup compares with that of the East African family both in terms of frequency peak and loose within-paragroup monophyletic relationships between the chromosomes."
quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ its what happens when you conquer a nation in those days. The women and children become slaves to those who had conquered them. Ethiopians made the Sabeans pay tribute. The daughters of nobility were sent as tribute to the Aksumites. As a result, our Ethiopians royals have been part Yemeni for since 500 BC. The Amhara are in part a result of this mixture.
Shut the **** up, your simply talking about something that you have no clue in what your discussing.
Why dosen't this show up in the mt-dna of modern day Amhara speakers? Also the Aksumites were largly the direct descents of modern day Tigre, Tigrinya, Tigray, and northern most Amhara speakers... most modern Amhara are really Amharaized Cushitic, Nilo-Saharan, and Omotic speakers. So your point falls on it's face.
One Aksumites never imported slaves from Yemen, instead we see a immigrant Aksumite population in Yemen, i.e. settlement. Therefore, the reason for the historic population of Aksumite derived peoples in Yemen today.
Post your evidence. Also, why would the Aksumite royalty intermarry with enslaved Yemeni populations? And if indeed this happened, which it didn't, why would this have any impact on the general population if it had been confined to the royal house? Again only 2% of the J in Ethiopia is of recent or historic admixture.
Also Aksum largly conquered areas in Eastern Yemen, i.e. Tihama, a population like Southern Yemen and Socotra is of recent African origin.
"In the 3rd century, Aksum began interfering in South Arabian affairs, controlling at times the western Tihama region among other areas."
I'm with Doc. What proof have you that Yemenis women were given to Aksum rulers.
If Doc is right and it does not show up in the Mt-DNA why are you pushing this issue Osirion. Is it maybe because you have Yemeni relatives so you want to make other people in Ethiopia like you?
Why would you even claim Ethiopians as Caucasian? This is odd from you but not surprising.
What we need is to see some source for your ideas about Ethiopia. WHen you have FACTS, then please come back and post them.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
In a purely % scenario... Ethiopians in general, if you include the Amhara % of Haplogroup J (35%... 33% of which is indigenous)and not the general Ethiopian % (18%)... the African derived and not recent or historic non-African admixture is 98%. The maternal input close to if not 100%.
Making Ethiopians if you take the y-dna and mt-dna, 99% African.
Ethiopians
Paternal
58% = Haplogroup E 18% = Haplogroup J, mass majority of it being indigenous and not due to recent or historic admixture. 17% = Haplogroup A 4% = Haplogroup K 3% = Haplogroup B
Haplogroup J may have moved further into Sudan from the General East African, i.e. Eritrean/Socotra/Southern Yemeni populations via the migrations which populated segments of the Nile Valley along with predominantly E3b carring groups. J1-M267 is largly concentrated in more southernly regions, the further north the less the freguency. 20% in Upper Egypt, around 30-40% in Sudan and Eritrea, and plus 70% in places like Socotra and Southern Yemen. We see the same pattern in Arabia, with Yemen possessing the highest freguencies. And due to the fact that East African J is 1) more diversified and two) doesn't match those in Yemen and Arabia... J seems all the more African. And even if it was not geographically African... it occured in places basically on the footsteps of the continent, i.e. Southern Yemen... Socotra is closer to Africa then it is Yemen. From there is dispersed west into Africa and north into Yemen and beyond.
Socotra and Southern Yemeni populations are biologically related to Africans, as well physically.
-------------------- Doctoris Scientia Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by KING: Doctoris Scientia
Thanks for simplyfying the data so a laymen like me can understand.
This really should put to rest what people like Dirk and Gigantic like to say when they claim Ethiopians as mixed. Keep it coming.
Peace
Your Welcome, KING
Just doing my part.
Yeah, science goes against anything Dirk or Gigantic supply or suggest. Ethiopians are an indigenous African population, who's history rooted in Africa. Even if J does represent a back-migration, which I doubt, J originated among a population with close and clear biological and cultural ties with the African continent.
Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by osirion: The Sabeans were conquered by the Ethiopians and as a consequence there was non-military migration from Southern Yemen into Ethiopia.
This is well supported.
Even if the Sabaeans immigrated into Ethiopia after they were conquered by the Habashan the only thing coming out of Arabia at that time were people for the most part looking like the Amhara/Tigrai and Tigrinya people.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
I'm with Doc. What proof have you that Yemenis women were given to Aksum rulers.
If Doc is right and it does not show up in the Mt-DNA why are you pushing this issue Osirion. Is it maybe because you have Yemeni relatives so you want to make other people in Ethiopia like you?
Why would you even claim Ethiopians as Caucasian? This is odd from you but not surprising.
What we need is to see some source for your ideas about Ethiopia. WHen you have FACTS, then please come back and post them.
Peace
I only said that the mixed race Amhara are part Caucasian due to the Sabean migration into Ethiopia. I said nothing of Oromos or Somali - rather I said just the opposite.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
I'm with Doc. What proof have you that Yemenis women were given to Aksum rulers.
If Doc is right and it does not show up in the Mt-DNA why are you pushing this issue Osirion. Is it maybe because you have Yemeni relatives so you want to make other people in Ethiopia like you?
Why would you even claim Ethiopians as Caucasian? This is odd from you but not surprising.
What we need is to see some source for your ideas about Ethiopia. WHen you have FACTS, then please come back and post them.
Peace
Its been awhile since I have seen that reference but I will dig it up.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
Shut the **** up, your simply talking about something that you have no clue in what your discussing.
Sorry but your very annoying. Post your evidence... but you can't. since theres no recent claiming Amhara admixture due to slavery in a historic context. And 100% with Dana, many people living in Yemen today and most in the past would have been identical to any Ethiopian group... Socotra and Hadhramaut populations for example and they're largly Haplogroup J1 and J*.
Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged |
I'm with Doc. What proof have you that Yemenis women were given to Aksum rulers.
If Doc is right and it does not show up in the Mt-DNA why are you pushing this issue Osirion. Is it maybe because you have Yemeni relatives so you want to make other people in Ethiopia like you?
Why would you even claim Ethiopians as Caucasian? This is odd from you but not surprising.
What we need is to see some source for your ideas about Ethiopia. WHen you have FACTS, then please come back and post them.
Peace
Its been awhile since I have seen that reference but I will dig it up.
LOL, sure. You still haven't answered my questions.
Why dosen't this show up in the mt-dna of modern day Amhara speakers? Also the Aksumites were largly the direct descents of modern day Tigre, Tigrinya, Tigray, and northern most Amhara speakers... most modern Amhara are really Amharaized Cushitic, Nilo-Saharan, and Omotic speakers.
Also, why would the Aksumite royalty intermarry with enslaved Yemeni populations? And if indeed this happened, which it didn't, why would this have any impact on the general population if it had been confined to the royal house? Again only 2% of the J in Ethiopia is of recent or historic admixture.
Also Aksum largly conquered areas in Eastern Yemen, i.e. Tihama, a population like Southern Yemen and Socotra is of recent African origin.
Also Aksum never conquered Saba, since Saba for the most part predated Aksum, paralleling the D'mt kingdom.
Aksum conquered Eastern Yemen... Tihama, who's population is of recent African origin.
"In the 3rd century, Aksum began interfering in South Arabian affairs, controlling at times the western Tihama region among other areas."
Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged |
Shut the **** up, your simply talking about something that you have no clue in what your discussing.
Sorry but your very annoying. Post your evidence... but you can't. since theres no recent claiming Amhara admixture due to slavery in a historic context. And 100% with Dana, many people living in Yemen today and most in the past would have been identical to any Ethiopian group... Socotra and Hadhramaut populations for example and they're largly Haplogroup J1 and J*.
LOL, that was XXY man not Orion you posted too. I get them mixed up too sometimes.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
In 523, the Christian king of the Axumite kingdom of Ethiopia, Kaleb of Abyssinia invaded the Jewish kingdom of the Himyarites in Yemen to aid of persecuted Christians who appealed for help. King dhu-Nawas (Masruq) was driven from his capital, Zafar . The Himyarites later recaptured Zafar and attacked the Christian kingdom of Najran to the north, killing monks, nuns and even children by the thousands12 . Enraged, the negus of Ethiopia sent an army of 70,000 across the Straits of Bab al-Mandab. They routed the Himyarite army and killed dhu-Nawas and ‘the crucifiers’, as Arabs of the Jewish faith were known. An Arab prince who proclaimed himself a Christian was installed as a puppet king of the Ethiopians. However, the African commander of the the occupying forces in Yemen deposed the Christian Arab prince and declared himself an independent king, independent even of the negus of Ethiopia. His name was Abraha. After several unsuccessful attempts at reigning him in, Ethiopia settled for a reception of tribute from Abraha in exchange for recognition of this new Christian kingdom of Yemen, with its new capital at San’a’. Abraha built a cathedral so magnificent that it threatened the pilgrim trade for which Mecca with its 360 idols of the Ka’aba, one for each lunar day, was famous. Pagan Bedouins, fearing that their business may collapse, burgled the church on the eve of its consecration and defiled the altar and cross with animal dung. In revenge, Abraha marched 400 miles north along the west coast to Mecca to destroy the Ka’aba. This African (Ethiopian) king rode a white elephant across the sands, to the astonishment of the camel-riding Arabs. The year of the invasion, 570, has since been known as the “Year of the Elephant”.
The sheikh of the defenseless Mecca, Abd al-Muttalib, tried to negotiate a ransom to save the city. Abraha wanted no human life, but only the destruction of all the idols at the Ka’aba. This was spiritual and economic suicide for the market town. Sadly, al-Muttalib rode back to Mecca to gather a posse to fight to the death for their holy place. In the battle, it was the Yemeni Christians who lost to the Meccan pagans, further reinforcing their belief in the miracle of the Ka’aba.
Moffett described it well, “It was a minor battle fought in a lost desert world, only imperfectly remembered even by tradition”, but it set in motion the future of Christianity in the desert kingdoms of Arabia. For 55 days after the battle of the Elephant, the champion over the Christians, the old Quraish bedouin Sheikh Abd al-Muttalib’s grandson was born. His name was Muhammad.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
No reliable information exists about the date of 'Abraha's death although tradition places it immediately after his expedition to Mecca. He was succeeded on the throne by two of his sons, Yaksum and Masruq, born to him by Raihäna, a Yemenite noblewoman whom 'Abraha had abducted from her husband.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
What is interesting is that Abraha - an African self appointed King of Yemen and self styled King of Saba had taken a Yemenite noblewoman as his wife.
Lets keep going. I have seen the inscription before detailing the enslavement of Yemeni daughters. These are Yemeni Jews by the way. We find their genes in South Africans. How does Yemeni Jewish genes show up in South Africa but somehow not in Ethiopia?
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by osirion: One step closer:
No reliable information exists about the date of 'Abraha's death although tradition places it immediately after his expedition to Mecca. He was succeeded on the throne by two of his sons, Yaksum and Masruq, born to him by Raihäna, a Yemenite noblewoman whom 'Abraha had abducted from her husband.
Your above quotes from Wikipedia doesn't mention anything about Yemeni slave women being incorporated into Aksumite or even the "Solomonic" royal families blood line. Not only was Abraha not of the Solomonic line, his children and their descendants weren't absorbed into the mainstream Solomonic Dynasty. Anyways even if they did, it's one women... and she's not Sabaean like you mentioned previously. You won't find her ancestral input in any Ethiopia today or even 500 some years ago.
South African Jews are 100% Bantu maternally, they have East African/Southern Yemeni/Socotra affiliated Y-DNA paternally... but they are in no way "mulatto", the high frequency of those lineages is most likely due to genetic drift and a very recent common ancestor among the tribe. Those lineages could have been introduced by less then 9 men 1000 some years ago. South African Jews are 100% South African Bantu, their "northern" Y-DNA is a relic of an ancient encounter. Also most of the J Haplogroup DNA is found among the priestly cast.
Only 2% of the Amhara Ethiopian gene-pool is of recent or historic non-African admixture, paternally.
Is it me or did you this out of your ass, since it was quite obvious that you were talking BS.
Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ like I said - I have seen the evidence of the inscription of Noble men of Yemen complaining about Aksumites taking their daughters. You will have to wait for proof.
This is commonly taught folklore in Ethiopia. Not the slavery part but the part about Queens of Yemen ruling in Ethiopia. Not really slavery back then but to us now it is.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ like I said - I have seen the evidence of the inscription of Noble men of Yemen complaining about Aksumites taking their daughters. You will have to wait for proof.
This is commonly taught folklore in Ethiopia. Not the slavery part but the part about Queens of Yemen ruling in Ethiopia. Not really slavery back then but to us now it is.
Then you would have to show me the evidence, and from what I understand it was obviously rare, as is the case in most urban civilizations, that non-native women... especially those in regard to enemy states, would be given such superior position in that particular state, in this case Aksum.
Can you list the name of Aksumite queens of Yemeni origin.
Also, this whole discussion is getting off topic. Their's no evidence of any extensive Yemeni blood in either the Amhara peoples or Solomonic line.
Also note, Aksum largly controlled regions in areas in or around Western Yemen and Saudi Arabia, i.e. Tihama, a population with recent origins in Africa. The only consequence of Aksumite rule in Yemen can be found in Yemen, via the Al-Akhdam "caste", who happen to be the direct descendants of the historical Aksumite troops.
You still haven't proven the Yemeni or Sabaean migration into Ethiopia. Saba predated Aksum for the most part, it was D'mt which paralled Saba in age.
Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doctoris Scientia: And 100% with Dana, many people living in Yemen today and most in the past would have been identical to any Ethiopian group... Socotra and Hadhramaut populations for example and they're largly Haplogroup J1 and J*. [/QB]
Indeed...
On Socotra:
quote:Some indications point rather to a connection of the island's Christianity with the Jacobite or Abyssinian Church. Thus they practised circumcision, as mentioned by Maffei in noticing the proceedings of Alboquerque at Socotra. De Barros calls them Jacobite Christians of the Abyssinian stock. Barbosa speaks of them as an olive-coloured people, Christian only in name, having neither baptism nor Christian knowledge, and having for many years lost all acquaintance with the Gospel. Andrea Corsali calls them Christian shepherds of Ethiopian race, like Abyssinians. They lived on dates, milk, and butter; some rice was imported. They had churches like mosques, but with altars in Christian fashion.
quote:Originally posted by Doctoris Scientia: And 100% with Dana, many people living in Yemen today and most in the past would have been identical to any Ethiopian group... Socotra and Hadhramaut populations for example and they're largly Haplogroup J1 and J*.
Indeed...
On Socotra:
quote:Some indications point rather to a connection of the island's Christianity with the Jacobite or Abyssinian Church. Thus they practised circumcision, as mentioned by Maffei in noticing the proceedings of Alboquerque at Socotra. De Barros calls them Jacobite Christians of the Abyssinian stock. Barbosa speaks of them as an olive-coloured people, Christian only in name, having neither baptism nor Christian knowledge, and having for many years lost all acquaintance with the Gospel. Andrea Corsali calls them Christian shepherds of Ethiopian race, like Abyssinians. They lived on dates, milk, and butter; some rice was imported. They had churches like mosques, but with altars in Christian fashion.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ like I said - I have seen the evidence of the inscription of Noble men of Yemen complaining about Aksumites taking their daughters. You will have to wait for proof.
This is commonly taught folklore in Ethiopia. Not the slavery part but the part about Queens of Yemen ruling in Ethiopia. Not really slavery back then but to us now it is.
Then you would have to show me the evidence, and from what I understand it was obviously rare, as is the case in most urban civilizations, that non-native women... especially those in regard to enemy states, would be given such superior position in that particular state, in this case Aksum.
Can you list the name of Aksumite queens of Yemeni origin.
Also, this whole discussion is getting off topic. Their's no evidence of any extensive Yemeni blood in either the Amhara peoples or Solomonic line.
Also note, Aksum largly controlled regions in areas in or around Western Yemen and Saudi Arabia, i.e. Tihama, a population with recent origins in Africa. The only consequence of Aksumite rule in Yemen can be found in Yemen, via the Al-Akhdam "caste", who happen to be the direct descendants of the historical Aksumite troops.
You still haven't proven the Yemeni or Sabaean migration into Ethiopia. Saba predated Aksum for the most part, it was D'mt which paralled Saba in age.
I think what I need to do is prove my point about Sabeans being part of the lineage of our royal families.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ like I said - I have seen the evidence of the inscription of Noble men of Yemen complaining about Aksumites taking their daughters. You will have to wait for proof.
This is commonly taught folklore in Ethiopia. Not the slavery part but the part about Queens of Yemen ruling in Ethiopia. Not really slavery back then but to us now it is.
Then you would have to show me the evidence, and from what I understand it was obviously rare, as is the case in most urban civilizations, that non-native women... especially those in regard to enemy states, would be given such superior position in that particular state, in this case Aksum.
Can you list the name of Aksumite queens of Yemeni origin.
Also, this whole discussion is getting off topic. Their's no evidence of any extensive Yemeni blood in either the Amhara peoples or Solomonic line.
Also note, Aksum largly controlled regions in areas in or around Western Yemen and Saudi Arabia, i.e. Tihama, a population with recent origins in Africa. The only consequence of Aksumite rule in Yemen can be found in Yemen, via the Al-Akhdam "caste", who happen to be the direct descendants of the historical Aksumite troops.
You still haven't proven the Yemeni or Sabaean migration into Ethiopia. Saba predated Aksum for the most part, it was D'mt which paralled Saba in age.
I think what I need to do is prove my point about Sabeans being part of the lineage of our royal families.
Yeah, you should since you haven't proven it yet, and I've never seen any such thing... nor have I heard anybody else propose such things.
Saba predated Aksum, it paralleled D'mt. Aksum largly controlled places in and around Tihama, in which the native population has continous ancestry in East Africa. Abraha married that Tihama women for one reason, politics, he abandoned Aksum... situating himself as a Ethiopian-Yemeni ruler, therefore him picking a Yemeni-Tihama made logical sense. He was trying to buy the locals.
Also, the Solomonic line, like other royals, married among themselves and local Aksumite noble families. They didn't mixed with 1)Sabaeans, since they were long long by the time Aksum had become a power 2) and Yemeni population... due to the fact that they, Aksumites, were enemies of the numerous Yemeni kingdoms for much of their history.
Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doctoris Scientia: Also, Zaharan
Haplogroup J may have moved further into Sudan from the General East African, i.e. Eritrean/Socotra/Southern Yemeni populations via the migrations which populated segments of the Nile Valley along with predominantly E3b carring groups. J1-M267 is largly concentrated in more southernly regions, the further north the less the freguency. 20% in Upper Egypt, around 30-40% in Sudan and Eritrea, and plus 70% in places like Socotra and Southern Yemen. We see the same pattern in Arabia, with Yemen possessing the highest freguencies. And due to the fact that East African J is 1) more diversified and two) doesn't match those in Yemen and Arabia... J seems all the more African. And even if it was not geographically African... it occured in places basically on the footsteps of the continent, i.e. Southern Yemen... Socotra is closer to Africa then it is Yemen. From there is dispersed west into Africa and north into Yemen and beyond.
Socotra and Southern Yemeni populations are biologically related to Africans, as well physically.
Good data Doctor. Like Kings says, keep it coming. Strange how Osiron seems to vanish when asked to supply supporting data...
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ actually I just found out that the author I have been trying to contact has died.
Stuart Munro-Hay
You asked for a reference to something I haven't seen in over 6 years. It would be in one of Stuart's books and I just need to figure out which one.
And by the way, we are talking about mtDNA not yDNA.
There's no traces of any recent or historic maternal gene-flow into Ethiopia or the Horn of Africa. A little more than 50% of the mt-dna in Ethiopians and other East Africans belong to African specific lineages of superhaplogroup L, while the remainer is split between L3M and L3N, which originated in Africa and then represented the female component of the OOA migrants who left Africa and moved east into Southwest Asia, eventually populating the rest of the world.
"The maternal ancestry of Ethiopians is similarly diverse. About half (52.2%) of Ethiopians belongs to mtdna Haplogroups L0, L1, L2, L3, L4, L5, or L6. These haplogroups are generally confined to the African continent. They also originated either in Ethiopia or very near."
"The other portion of the population belong to Haplogroup N (31%) and Haplogroup M1 (17%)."
Like paternal haplogroups I,J, and K (IJK), maternal haplogroups M, N, and R are also likely of African origin, Given the fact that these haplogroups all arised in parallel to the OOA migrations among other things, and the fact the lineages found in Africa do not match those outside of Africa, therefore no admixture.
African Afro-Asiatics have been even more recently clarrified as a very wholly African population.
"The Afrasan speaking Ethiopians sampled were cumulatively (Fig.5B) found to belong to: 71% in the "Cushitic" cluster, 6% in the "Saharan/Dogon" cluster, 5% in the "Niger Kordofanian" cluster, 3% each in the "Nilo-Saharan" and "Chadic Saharan" cluster, while the balance (12%) of their assignment was distributed among the remnant (9) Associated Ancestral Clusters (AAC's) found in Sub-Saharan Africa."
Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
^^Note Osirion STILL hasn't produced credible references, nor addressed your points at hand with them. He is "just finding" this and "just found" that.. Yah..
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
There's no traces of any recent or historic maternal gene-flow into Ethiopia or the Horn of Africa.
As if the question of M1's origin has been finalized.
It is still quote debatable.
LOL, even if it did originate in the area Europeans categorize as "Middle Eastern" or "Southwest Asian", no ones argueing that M1 entered Africa in recent or historic times. People who support any back-migration propose a time gap in which modern humans had just left Africa, therefore still resembled and biologically clustered with East Africans.
Haplogroup M is 60,000 years old, Haplogroup N is 71,000 years old. Modern humans left Africa 60,000 years ago. No matter how you cut it were talking about people who would have been recognized as Saharo-Tropical Africans.
Anyways, as attested by recent finds, East Africans are wholly Africans... not mulattos.
"The Afrasan speaking Ethiopians sampled were cumulatively (Fig.5B) found to belong to: 71% in the "Cushitic" cluster, 6% in the "Saharan/Dogon" cluster, 5% in the "Niger Kordofanian" cluster, 3% each in the "Nilo-Saharan" and "Chadic Saharan" cluster, while the balance (12%) of their assignment was distributed among the remnant (9) Associated Ancestral Clusters (AAC's) found in Sub-Saharan Africa."
Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged |
Saudi Arabian Y-Chromosome diversity and its relationship with nearby regions
Khaled K Abu-Amero1 email, Ali Hellani2, Ana M González3 email, Jose M Larruga3 email, Vicente M Cabrera3 email and Peter A Underhill4 email Molecular Genetics Laboratory, College of Medicine, King Saud University, Riyadh 11411, Saudi Arabia Department of PGD, Saad Specialist Hospital, Al-Khobar, Saudi Arabia Departamento de Genética, Universidad de La Laguna, 38271 La Laguna, Tenerife, Spain Department of Psychiatry and Behavioural Sciences, Stanford University, School of Medicine, Stanford, California 94304, USA
BMC Genetics 2009,
The most abundant haplogroups in Saudi Arabia, J1-M267 (42%), J2-M172 (14%), E1-M2 (8%), R1-M17 (5%) and K2-M184 (5%)
Saudi Arabia differentiates from other Arabian Peninsula countries by a higher presence of J2-M172 lineages. It is significantly different from Yemen mainly due to a comparative reduction of sub-Saharan Africa E1-M123 and Levantine J1-M267 male lineages. Around 14% of the Saudi Arabia Y-chromosome pool is typical of African biogeographic ancestry, 17% arrived to the area from the East across Iran, while the remainder 69% could be considered of direct or indirect Levantine ascription.
J1-M267 is more abundant in the southern areas, reaching a frequency around 73% in Yemen, whereas J2-M172 is more common in the Levant. Most probably, the significant higher presence of J2-M172 in Saudi compared to other Arabian populations is due to the larger northern boundary that Saudi Arabia shares with the Levant. The Fertile Crescent region has been considered the most probable origin of the earliest dispersions of both subclades [21,32,33]. Further subdivisions of J1-M172 have uncovered more recent Bronze age expansions from Turkey and the Balkans traced by the J2-M67/M92 and J2-M12 subgroups
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
I really hate it when people simply post links, that we've already seen and discussed about, and not contribute anything to the former discussion. "the Lion" what are some of updates for the above links? I'll post some that I'm aware of.
"The Afrasan speaking Ethiopians sampled were cumulatively (Fig.5B) found to belong to: 71% in the "Cushitic" cluster, 6% in the "Saharan/Dogon" cluster, 5% in the "Niger Kordofanian" cluster, 3% each in the "Nilo-Saharan" and "Chadic Saharan" cluster, while the balance (12%) of their assignment was distributed among the remnant (9) Associated Ancestral Clusters (AAC's) found in Sub-Saharan Africa."
Simplistic "race percentage" models are dubious in Africa which has the highest genetic diversity in the world. That diversity proceeded from deeper sub-Saharan Africa, to East and N.E. Africa, then to the rest of the globe. All other populations, including Europeans and "Middle easterners" carry this diversity which was built into Africa to begin with. Africans thus don't need any "race mix" to look different. Their diversity is built-in and supplied the whole globe. Any returnees or "backflow" to Africa looked like Africans. (Brace 2005, Hanihara 1996, Holliday 2003).
There's no traces of any recent or historic maternal gene-flow into Ethiopia or the Horn of Africa.
As if the question of M1's origin has been finalized.
It is still quote debatable.
Science is never about finalization, nothing is ever fully finalized.
Thats a bit silly. The debate over flat earth has been finalized. Earth at the center of our solar system - finalized. Plenty of debates have been ended.
M1 is not one of them.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
"The Afrasan speaking Ethiopians sampled were cumulatively (Fig.5B) found to belong to: 71% in the "Cushitic" cluster, 6% in the "Saharan/Dogon" cluster, 5% in the "Niger Kordofanian" cluster, 3% each in the "Nilo-Saharan" and "Chadic Saharan" cluster, while the balance (12%) of their assignment was distributed among the remnant (9) Associated Ancestral Clusters (AAC's) found in Sub-Saharan Africa."
please give the link of the above quote not a link to blog, the link to the original study and it's date, thank you.
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
"The Afrasan speaking Ethiopians sampled were cumulatively (Fig.5B) found to belong to: 71% in the "Cushitic" cluster, 6% in the "Saharan/Dogon" cluster, 5% in the "Niger Kordofanian" cluster, 3% each in the "Nilo-Saharan" and "Chadic Saharan" cluster, while the balance (12%) of their assignment was distributed among the remnant (9) Associated Ancestral Clusters (AAC's) found in Sub-Saharan Africa."
please give the link of the above quote not a link to blog, the link to the original study and it's date, thank you.
There's no traces of any recent or historic maternal gene-flow into Ethiopia or the Horn of Africa.
As if the question of M1's origin has been finalized.
It is still quote debatable.
Science is never about finalization, nothing is ever fully finalized.
Thats a bit silly. The debate over flat earth has been finalized. Earth at the center of our solar system - finalized. Plenty of debates have been ended.
M1 is not one of them.
In regard to that arguements will continue to surface on particular subjects, especially in regard to genetics.
The fact is... the arguement on the origin in regard to M1 and N still contradicts your theory.
1) M1 and N originated in a geographical area in Africa among the local descendants of the OOA.
or 2) M1 and N originated in a small group of AFRICANS who had just left Africa, in which some quickly returned still being biologically speaking AFRICAN.
No one, other than you, is suggesting a recent or historic migration of M1, N, or any other haplogroup into Ethiopia.
Like I said, it most likely originated in Africa, in due part because both M1 and N have a date range that predates the OOA migration. N(71,000 years old) and M1(60,000 years).
And the fact that the Ethiopian gene-pool is solely of African origin trumps your theory:
"The Afrasan speaking Ethiopians sampled were cumulatively (Fig.5B) found to belong to: 71% in the "Cushitic" cluster, 6% in the "Saharan/Dogon" cluster, 5% in the "Niger Kordofanian" cluster, 3% each in the "Nilo-Saharan" and "Chadic Saharan" cluster, while the balance (12%) of their assignment was distributed among the remnant (9) Associated Ancestral Clusters (AAC's) found in Sub-Saharan Africa."
Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
People who support any back-migration propose a time gap in which modern humans had just left Africa, therefore still resembled and biologically clustered with East Africans. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic