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Author Topic: Geneticists claim the Parent Y-DNA Haplogroup of D and E Has Origins in Eurasia
Jacki Lopushonsky
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The origin of DE-YAP*, parent to all Y-DNA haplogroups D and E, is modeled to be of Eurasian origin in this extract -

Regions near but external to northeast Africa, like the Levant or the southern Arabian Peninsula, could have served as an incubator for the early diversification of non-African uniparental haplogroup varieties like Y chromosome DE-YAP*, CF-P143* and mtDNA M and N molecular ancestors. These would have spread globally and diversified over time and space. This model would imply that both CF-P143 and the DE-YAP evolved nearby but outside Africa. One DE-YAP* ancestor would have spread to Asia and evolved to haplogroup D while another DE-YAP* returned to northeast Africa and evolved into hg E. It is noteworthy that DE-YAP* has been detected at low frequency in Africa [37]. Again, this hypothesis has its mtDNA counterpart as it is well documented that, in the Paleolithic, at least three clades (X1, U6, M1) derived respectively from the three main Eurasian macrohaplogroups (N, R, M) came back to North Africa from Asia [38-42].

Note the E*-M96 basal lineage found only in Saudi Arabia and Lebanon and the Egyptian Y-dna break down in this table -

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/10/59/table/T1

 -

"But the fact that Haplogroup E is closely linked with Haplogroup D, which is not found in Africa, leaves open the possibility that E first arose in the Near or Middle East and was subsequently carried into Africa by a back migration. E1b1 is by far the lineage of greatest geographical distribution."

 -

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Explorador
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Old news. Chandrasekar's false alarm of hope for the anti-African clowns lingering around the web. Been there, done that, and debunked:

DE* as "Last Refuge" of Sects so psychologically troubled by African Ancestry?

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http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/10/59#B37

Saudi Arabian Y-Chromosome diversity and its relationship with nearby regions

Khaled K Abu-Amero 1 , Ali Hellani 2 , Ana M González 3 , Jose M Larruga 3 , Vicente M Cabrera 3 and Peter A Underhill 4

1 Molecular Genetics Laboratory, College of Medicine, King Saud University, Riyadh 11411, Saudi Arabia

2 Department of PGD, Saad Specialist Hospital, Al-Khobar, Saudi Arabia

3 Departamento de Genética, Universidad de La Laguna, 38271 La Laguna, Tenerife, Spain

4 Department of Psychiatry and Behavioural Sciences, Stanford University, School of Medicine, Stanford, California 94304, USA

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Just replace Chandrasekar's name with Khaled et al., and you get the same results: Debunked.

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quote:
Originally posted by NonProphet:

Note the E*-M96 basal lineage found only in Saudi Arabia and Lebanon and the Egyptian Y-dna break down in this table -

Common sense is in order. These are relics of African immigrants in the norther part of the Arabia plate. This region lacks diversity in hg E, and generally the ones that are found here, are sub-clades of African examples. In fact, more testament to the African ancestry in the region is the low and scattered frequency of deep root clades like hgs A and B. It is not surprising to find some scattered relics of African dispersal here. The Arabian plate would also have to have the ancestor of hg DE, hg CT-M168. How likely is this? It would mean that in order for CT-M168 to emerge in the Arabian plate, that region would have to also have had hg BT-M42. But hg B, its descendant, is restricted to Africa. Why isn't this marker in Asia, if not more branches than what we see? In Africa both clades descended from hg BT-M42 exist: hgs B and CT.

Also, if the Arabian plate or any other Asian territory was the origin point of hg DE* and hg E*, it would likely be teeming with both hg E in tandem with hg D as D is right there on the Asian continent, but instead D is restricted only to some populations in the east, while hg E is typical of Africa. Instead, the rest of Asian gene pool is of CF!

The best scenario, for other reasons noted in the link I posted, is that DE* was part of an OOA migration, and left at a time when neither hg E or hg D were around, shortly after which hg E emerged in Africa.

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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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^^ lol..

Yeap, the DE thing has already been dealt with..
The blind, leading the blind..

 -


and a "Middle Eastern" origin doesn't help
"wandering Caucasoid" proponents at all, since
the "backflowees" as such, already looked like
Africans to begin with.

 -
http://nilevalleypeoples.blogspot.com/2010/04/blog-post_9251.html

And the Saudi study uses Egyptian samples from
Luis et al 2004- Levant vs the Horn, which were
Arab and Arabized Berber samples from Northern
Egypt. Hence another bogus stacked deck from
:white Egypt" and "biodiversity" proponents.

 -

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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan:


Yeap, the DE thing has already been dealt with..
The blind, leading the blind...

...not to leave out the glaring absense of YAP+ in the table provided in the intro link.
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Jacki Lopushonsky
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quote:
Originally posted by NonProphet:
The origin of DE-YAP*, parent to all Y-DNA haplogroups D and E, is modeled to be of Eurasian origin in this extract -

Regions near but external to northeast Africa, like the Levant or the southern Arabian Peninsula, could have served as an incubator for the early diversification of non-African uniparental haplogroup varieties like Y chromosome DE-YAP*, CF-P143* and mtDNA M and N molecular ancestors. These would have spread globally and diversified over time and space. This model would imply that both CF-P143 and the DE-YAP evolved nearby but outside Africa. One DE-YAP* ancestor would have spread to Asia and evolved to haplogroup D while another DE-YAP* returned to northeast Africa and evolved into hg E. It is noteworthy that DE-YAP* has been detected at low frequency in Africa [37]. Again, this hypothesis has its mtDNA counterpart as it is well documented that, in the Paleolithic, at least three clades (X1, U6, M1) derived respectively from the three main Eurasian macrohaplogroups (N, R, M) came back to North Africa from Asia [38-42].

Note the E*-M96 basal lineage found only in Saudi Arabia and Lebanon and the Egyptian Y-dna break down in this table -

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/10/59/table/T1

 -

"But the fact that Haplogroup E is closely linked with Haplogroup D, which is not found in Africa, leaves open the possibility that E first arose in the Near or Middle East and was subsequently carried into Africa by a back migration. E1b1 is by far the lineage of greatest geographical distribution."

 -

Another quote from the study -

The presence of two underived E*-M96 Saudi lineages raises interesting questions related to the macrohaplogroup DE-YAP phylogeography. The recent resolutions of the CDEF-M168 tripartite structure to the bipartite DE-YAP and CF-P143 [16,31] extends the conversation regarding the early successful colonization of Eurasia. While several scenarios remain potentially possible the most parsimonious model is the most prudent. This model proposes the successful colonization of Eurasia by migration(s) of populations containing precursor Y-chromosome founder macrohaplogroup CDET-M168 and basal mtDNA L3 representatives.

Currently Tibet is the source of the most precise and recent Y-dna DE* Asian samples found with ALL eight defining mutations - M1/YAP, M145/P205, M203, P144, P153, P165, P167, P183.

If anyone has a peer-reviewed, scholarly 2008-2010 study to model an African origin of DE* with all eight mutations and with a mtDNA migration to coincide, please post a link. Blogs and Cartoonish Spam are not persuasive evidence.

Egypt and Lebanon are phylogenetically closest (Fst=0.028)in this study and share the greatest Y-dna E diversity(Qt 7 different E-Hg) which lends more evidence of E basal origins in NE Africa or SW Eurasia. With Y-dna E-V12* or E1b1b1a1* HG untyped and not included in this study may show Egypt with the most Y-dna E diversity.


http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNATreeTrunk08.html

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/10/59/table/T2

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/6/45#B2

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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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^^ Your same study, with your same diagram, shows
that the sampling is skewed- Arabized northern
Egyptians used as "representative."

 -

quote from Abu-Amero:
"“Our Saudi Arabia sample was compared to other Arabian Peninsula populations and to surrounding areas using data from previous studies performed at a similar level of haplogroup resolution. These samples comprise, 72 Qatari, 164 United Arab Emirate and 62 Yemeni [15]; 121 Omani and 147 Egyptian [14]; 201 Somalis [17]; 916 Lebanese [18]; 146 Jordanian [19]; 203 Iraqi (139 from Al-Zahery et al. [20] and 64 from Sanchez et al. [17]); 523 Turks [21];150 Irani [22] and 176 Pakistani [23] “
--Amero 2009

All well and good but how come the "representative"
samples from Egypt are Arabized northern Egyptians?


Note 14 of Abu-Amero shows the Egyptian data is
from the 2004 Luis et al. study Levant vs the
Horn. This study sampled ARABIZED Egyptians and
Berbers NOT a balanced sample of Egypt.

[DIRECT QUOTE FROM ABU-AMERO]
note 14
“Luis JR, Rowold DJ, Regueiro M, Caeiro B,
Cinnioglu C, Roseman C, Underhill PA, Cavalli-
Sforza LL, Herrera RJ: The Levant versus the Horn
of Africa: evidence for bidirectional corridors
of human migrations. Am J Hum Genet 2004 ,
74(3):532-544.”


DIRECT QUOTE from Luis FROM WHENCE THE
"REPRESENTATIVE" EGYPTIANS USED BY ABU-AMERO

"we investigated the nonrecombining Y
chromosome (NRY) binary marker patterns of
affinity and diversification in 147 North
Egyptian and 121 Omani males.”


Again, conveniently skewed sampling not at
all "representative" of Egypt overall..


============================================================================

Originally posted by the Explorer:
Also, if the Arabian plate or any other Asian territory was the origin point of hg DE* and hg E*, it would likely be teeming with both hg E in tandem with hg D as D is right there on the Asian continent, but instead D is restricted only to some populations in the east, while hg E is typical of Africa. Instead, the rest of Asian gene pool is of CF!

The best scenario, for other reasons noted in the link I posted, is that DE* was part of an OOA migration, and left at a time when neither hg E or hg D were around, shortly after which hg E emerged in Africa.


Excellent analysis.
Your write-up is worth quoting:


"DE* as "Last Refuge" of Sects so
psychologically troubled by African
Ancestry?
The purported finding of DE*
paraphyletic haplotypes in only 2 Tibetan
sample candidates appears to have
caused hysterical excitement in certain
quarters, specifically amongst sects of
individuals who are psychologically and
emotionally tormented by the prospect of
African ancestry in their "homelands".
But this excitement is emotionally driven,
and just that. As such, intellectual
engagement gives way to religious
cultism as the medium of self-expression.
But let's just examine how much or what
really lies herein that is worth being
hysterically excited over:
"

" * DE* is a descendant clade of
M168. M168 is undoubtedly African; this
fact alone makes it more than probable
that this place [Africa] is also likely
where DE* emerged.

* DE* is more common in Africa than
outside of it -

It has been identified in African samples
in more than one accasion in
separately-conducted studies, having
been identified in 5 Nigerian sampling
candidates in one study, *1 in an
Egyptian sample [see "Miscellaneous
notes" below] and 1 Guinean individual
in another . On the other hand, it had
purportedly been identified in only 2
Tibetan sampling candidates. So we have
6 to 7 African cases vs. 2 Asian cases.

* DE*'s internal phylogeny is more
diverse and widely distributed in Africa -

Considering the greater internal
phylogenetic branching of haplogroup E
vs haplogroup D, it can be suggestive of
either 1) longer time-depth for
haplogroup E explosion/expansion, and
hence, implicating DE* being around
longer in Africa, as the homeland of
haplogroup E ...

Or

2) that the haplogroup E lineage
experienced an explosion that the D
counterparts did not achieve in more or
less the same time depth. The question
becomes: What could account for this?

Either way, with fact being that African
Hg E internal phylogeny is more
elaborate than Hg D, the end result
suggests that the intensity of such intra-E
phylogenetic explosion seems to have
had some level of erasing effect on DE*
distribution. Given the greater pressure,
due to greater demic explosion brought
to bear on preexisting DE* in Africa —
mainly by its own sub-phylogeny — than
that which would have been the case in
Asia by the YAP+ counterpart
sub-phylogeny there, it's amazing that
DE* is relentlessly visible enough in the
African gene pool, as demonstrated by its
greater chance detectability here than
elsewhere, including Asia. This suggests
that DE* would have been more widely
distributed in Africa than in Asia, having
been able to withstand greater pressure
from greater subsequent demic expansion
of Hg E phylogeny than that involving
Hg D phylogeny, respectively in Africa
and Asia."

endquote:

full text:
http://exploring-africa.blogspot.com/2009/04/de-as-last-refuge-of-sects-so.html

--------------------
Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began..

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Jacki Lopushonsky
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LOL at you people exposing your obvious politically biased agenda. What type of college degrees, if any, do you guys possess and please name the school? Why can't you people just follow the evidence and accept facts? Nothing you people post refutes my evidence. If the evidence shows an African origin for DE*, I won't loose any sleep. The skeptical, unsure, open doubting mind is a prerequisite for any scientist they apply to their OWN knowledge as well as to others and the only way for hypothesis to be overturned is with better convincing evidence. True Skeptics will admit error and accept more convincing facts. Where is the study I requested in my prior post?
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Explorador
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Do you honestly think that this emotional drivel provides cover for your intimidation by the substantive scientific analysis Zaharan cited above?

Snap out of your sleep walking. hg DE in saudi Arabia is only a figment of your imagination. And any idiot who takes a quick peek at the table you provided, can see that the Arabian plate is a recipient of recent African ancestry, the region is crawling with sub-Sahran African markers...or are you going to try to convince us that the deep root clades of hg A and hg B also came from the Arabian plate?

The table shows recent west African ancestry in the northern portion of the Arabian plate, particularly in the form of E1b1a and E1-M33. But nonphrophet is delusional enough to assume that these too originated in the Arabian plate, with its low frequencies.

DE* has been identified from east to west in Africa, its highest frequency anywhere. There is zip in the Arabian plate despite nonprophet's huss and fuss, and only two cases in Tibet, which is to be expected, given the hg D markers in that area.

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Jacki Lopushonsky
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Where is the peer-reviewed evidence for your claims and why the straw man?

 -

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Explorador
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Did you read the post Zarahan cited. Did you refute the points and evidences presented there in. Or are you too chicken to do a simple task as that? There is no shame in admitting that you are a chicken, but there is shame in being exposed as one unwittingly.

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And while at it nonprophet, tell me where I can find your fictitious Arabian plate hg DE* markers.

What is in next for you? Cooking up a story about how the Benin haplotype sickle cell trait originated in the Arabian plate, maybe?

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Jacki Lopushonsky
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quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Did you read the post Zarahan cited. Did you refute the points and evidences presented there in. Or are you too chicken to do a simple task as that? There is no shame in admitting that you are a chicken, but there is shame in being exposed as one unwittingly.

How does your alias cartoonish spam refute later evidence with older studies? Please read my prior request for any 2008-2010 study that models an African origin of DE* with mtDNA. The West Africans that tested for DE* were only found with 3 of the known DE* mutations(before 2008). The Tibet samples have all 8 DE* mutations published in 2008. Maybe those West Africans should get retested to the new standard to see if they are NOT derived Y-dna E Hgs. You may not be aware that all Y-dna E Hg possess all the DE* parent mutations as well or did you even consider the possibility of DE* misclassification in your sociopolitical zeal?
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Explorador
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Are you saying alphabets seem like cartoon to you? You must be watching too much of disney's goofy, because his character identifies with your goofy character.

Where is your point by point refutation of the scientific points in the piece Zaharan cited?

It clearly educates you about the frequency of African hg DE* markers, which you still managed to get wrong.

Only 2 people in Tibet tested positive for this marker, which as I note, is understandable. Where can we find the scientific source for your 8 Tibetians?

Where is that fake Arabian plate hg DE* that you keep leaving behind in your emotional drivels of replies?

I educate you in my blog post above why they are the real deal, but you are too dumb to understand it and cowardly to confront it head-on. *If* the African hg DE* markers were my misclassification, then your own source must share my socio-political zeal, as it acknowledges them too, as did Chandrasekar and Rosa et al. In which case, you are a fruitcake and not realizing it, for parroting "my socio-political zeal". But let's entertain your stupidity for a sec: Where is your evidence that all these folks and myself have misclassified these markers, and that you are smarter than all of us put together, and got it right. Tell us how you got it right.

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Jacki Lopushonsky
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quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Are you saying alphabets seem like cartoon to you? You must be watching too much of disney's goofy, because his character identifies with your goofy character.

Where is you point by point refutation of the scientific points in the piece Zaharan cited?

It clearly educates you about the African hg DE* markers, which you still managed to get wrong.

Only 2 people in Tibet tested positive for this marker, which as I note, is understandable. Where can we find the scientific source for your 8 Tibetians?

Where is that fake Arabian plate hg DE* that you keep leaving behind in your emotional drivels of replies?

I educate you in my blog post above why they are the real deal, but you are too dumb to understand it and cowardly to confront it head-on. *If* the African hg DE* markers were my misclassification, that your own source must share my socio-political zeal, as it acknowledges them too, as did Chandrasekar and Rosa et al. In which case, you are a fruitcake and not realizing it. But let's entertain your stupidity for a sec: Where is your evidence that all these folks and myself have misclassified these markers, and that you are smarter than all of us put together, and got it right. Tell us how you got it right.

LOL, you confuse 8 Tibetans with 8 SNPs!!! Enjoy arguing with yourself Fool. [Big Grin]
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You are about as intelligent as your asshole. I speak about 2 Tibetian individuals testing positive for DE*, and you speak of some 8 SNPs. What relevance does that have on our discussion, if you weren't implying that these markers were DE* markers?

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quote:
Originally posted by NonProphet:

It is noteworthy that DE-YAP* has been detected at low frequency in Africa [37].

Fruitcake, tell us why your own source got this wrong, as it also telling your uneducated hiney that Africans tested positive for this marker. Is this not what I also educated you on?


Ps - A quick recap:

*The neanderthal goon posts a table showing

...low frequencies of sub-Saharan western and eastern African markers, including deep root clades generally restricted to Africans, and yet, is still not clued in on that these are serving as recent African gene flow.

...no hg DE* in any of these areas.

*Was educated on

...the fact that 7 cases of African hg DE* have been published vs. only 2 outside of the continent -- in an area containing hg D clades, with the sources of these publications mentioned in the blog post which the dullard is too cowardly, or perhaps too challenged to read. His/her own source informs of this reality. But he/she dismisses this as a conspiracy on my part. The goon is too challenged to even understand his/her own sources.

*Was given a substantive scientific blog analysis

...which the goon is too yellow-belly to confront. The goon tries to hide this handicap and thinly-veiled cop-out by conveniently dismissing the analysis as "cartoon".

...and so the goon's house made of cards comes tumbling down.

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beyoku
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More than 7 cases, they found 6 instances of DE in (TWO) separate studies on Nigeria. We wont even get into the 25-30 instances of E* that they have found in Africa.....with the latest study producing 15 or 16 samples.

Straws....get some.

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Jacki Lopushonsky
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quote:
Originally posted by astenb:
More than 7 cases, they found 6 instances of DE in (TWO) separate studies on Nigeria. We wont even get into the 25-30 instances of E* that they have found in Africa.....with the latest study producing 15 or 16 samples.

Straws....get some.

Talk about straws, number of cases is NOT evidence of origin. Don't you know what founder effect and drift?

Go to the links below and notice the NEW mutations in RED found in 2008 for Y-dna DE* and E Hgs. A true DE* person would test POSITIVE for all of 8 SNPs BUT NEGATIVE FOR ANY Y-DNA E SNPs. If they did, they would be an E hg. So any DE* positives prior to 2008 need to get retested for the NEW SNPs.

Name any other samples outside Tibet that have ALL 8 DE* mutations - M1/YAP, M145/P205, M203, P144, P153, P165, P167, P183.

Also, this is my third and final request for any 2008-2010 peer-reviewed scholarly study that models an African origin for DE* with mtDNA to coincide.

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNATreeTrunk07.html

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNATreeTrunk08.html

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Jacki Lopushonsky
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quote:
Originally posted by astenb:
More than 7 cases, they found 6 instances of DE in (TWO) separate studies on Nigeria. We wont even get into the 25-30 instances of E* that they have found in Africa.....with the latest study producing 15 or 16 samples.

Straws....get some.

Y-dna DE* people need to test positive for these SNPs -

DE* M1/YAP, M145/P205, M203, P144, P153, P165, P167, P183

AND Y-dna DE* people need to test negative for these SNPs -

D M174, 021355
E M40/SRY4064/SRY8299, M96, P29, P150, P152, P154, P155, P156, P162, P168, P169, P170, P171, P172, P173, P174, P175, P176

CAPISH!!!

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beyoku
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Let me ask you a question.

If they were tested for those new SNP's and it was found that they did NOT contain them wouldnt that make their lineage ANCESTRAL to the the new SNP' string you listed?

What would be the more basal linage:
One Positive for:
M1/YAP, M145, M203

OR

One Positive for:
M1/YAP, M145/P205, M203, P144, P153, P165, P167, P183

That being said if the 13-15 West African DE* lineages are NEGATIVE for the New SNP's "M203, P144, P153, P165, P167, P183" then that would mean they are Ancestral to the Asian DE* lineages you are speaking of - Increasing the African diversity (as usual.)

If they were POSITIVE for the new SNP's in question then that would make them equivalent to the Asian DE* lineages - Increasing the African frequency (as usual).

In Either case you loose. (as usual)
You should be slapped for bringing those dumb lowbrow arguments. What would be the point of an Asian origin for DE or E anyways? All that would do is increase the relationship of the worldwide BLACK presence because then BOTH groups would be Asian! All those fringe theories would then fall neatly into place.

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beyoku
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Just to add. You can suck balls you know why?
You had 6 DE* samples in Nigeria from 2003

Followed by 1 more DE* sample in Guinea-Bissau in 2007

But the Boot really comes down on your neck when they produced 6 additinal DE* samples in Nigeria THIS YEAR


And if you need 16 Haplgroup E* samples from one study this year you can go here.


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Jacki Lopushonsky
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^You people are hopeless, just don't breed more idiots or teach your nonsense to students.

ES forum is more evidence of Niger-Kordafanian Low IQ -

 -


The DNA forum members are having a good belly laugh from you Idiots.

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@ non prophet

You're too slow to even notice, but for you to say that DE* in Africa is due to a back migration from Asia, which I take it you are then proposing it produced the deepest clades and most diversity of the E haplgroup? As majority of the continent of Africa carry this E Y-chromosome? E1b1b and E1b1a. So in essence you're saying majority of Africans are actually Asian instead? You know this makes no sense, at all right? Obviously you think it does.

 -


What is logical, being that Africa is the home of modern humans, showing the oldest and most genetic diversity along with all lineages found outside of Africa ultimately tracing back to Africa, that DE* was present in Africa first.

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beyoku
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One minute ago you were high and mighty talking about the new "2008" SNP's and Genetic lineages. Now that you have been debunked on that front you resort to attacks on IQ. LOL

I am pretty sure my IQ is higher than yours. I can also pretty much guarantee i make more than you. But dont change the subject, Those 16 E* samples as well as the 6 DE* lineages from 2010 studies are waiting for you comment. The fact that you talk about the IQ of people that bitch slap you intellectually says something about your OWN aptitude. [Smile]

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Jacki Lopushonsky
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quote:
Originally posted by astenb:
One minute ago you were high and mighty talking about the new "2008" SNP's and Genetic lineages. Now that you have been debunked on that front you resort to attacks on IQ. LOL

I am pretty sure my IQ is higher than yours. I can also pretty much guarantee i make more than you. But dont change the subject, Those 16 E* samples as well as the 6 DE* lineages from 2010 studies are waiting for you comment. The fact that you talk about the IQ of people that bitch slap you intellectually says something about your OWN aptitude. [Smile]

Why do you avoid answering my challenge? Your lack of genetics knowledge is obvious when you don't understand drift and founder effect. Quantities are NOT sufficient evidence for origins and none of the studies you linked model an African origin for DE* with mtDNA. Why?

Anytime you want to do an online IQ test and compare and capture screenshots, we will see who is superior. [Wink] [Big Grin]

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Explorador
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quote:
Originally posted by astenb:

More than 7 cases, they found 6 instances of DE in (TWO) separate studies on Nigeria. We wont even get into the 25-30 instances of E* that they have found in Africa.....with the latest study producing 15 or 16 samples.

Straws....get some.

Thanks for the info. I'll see to it that my blog post accounts for these additional findings.
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Explorador
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quote:
Originally posted by astenb:

Let me ask you a question.

If they were tested for those new SNP's and it was found that they did NOT contain them wouldnt that make their lineage ANCESTRAL to the the new SNP' string you listed?

What would be the more basal linage:
One Positive for:
M1/YAP, M145, M203

OR

One Positive for:
M1/YAP, M145/P205, M203, P144, P153, P165, P167, P183

That being said if the 13-15 West African DE* lineages are NEGATIVE for the New SNP's "M203, P144, P153, P165, P167, P183" then that would mean they are Ancestral to the Asian DE* lineages you are speaking of - Increasing the African diversity (as usual.)

If they were POSITIVE for the new SNP's in question then that would make them equivalent to the Asian DE* lineages - Increasing the African frequency (as usual).

In Either case you loose. (as usual)
You should be slapped for bringing those dumb lowbrow arguments.

Apparently the clown is trying to discover the concept of marker resolution. The blog post which he cowardly dismissed as "cartoon" already talks about the matter of resolution, and makes sure that the resolution issue renders the paraphyletic African YAP+ markers "upstream" markers and not just a matter of poor resolution of old sequencing methodology. Had the clown done a simple thing such as reading the link, he/she wouldn't have asked a dumb question as to whether I'm mindful of the resolution issue. The question of resolution is something that has been a regular part of discussion on this site for 6 six years and more, and this clown is just now beginning to scratch the surface, thinking that he/she is in a position to be lecturing anyone on DNA sequences. The depths of details on DNA loci configuration, haplogroup branches and to polymorphism types on my blog will blow his/her mind away, because he/she won't even begin to understand them, and this clown thinks he/she can lecture me on 101 stuff. Even so, the clown did not manage the get the simple thing right, as your examples attempt to teach him/her; take the following for example...


Y-dna DE* people need to test positive for these SNPs -

DE* M1/YAP, M145/P205, M203, P144, P153, P165, P167, P183

AND Y-dna DE* people need to test negative for these SNPs -

D M174, 021355
E M40/SRY4064/SRY8299, M96, P29, P150, P152, P154, P155, P156, P162, P168, P169, P170, P171, P172, P173, P174, P175, P176

CAPISH!!!
- by the clown nonprophet

It hasn't occurred to this clown, just as astenb's example seeks to inform him/her, that African paraphyletic YAP+ markers need not test positive for all those SNPs, and likewise, the absence of say, M96 and M174 would be sufficient to render it outside of hg E and hg D respectively, as these are characteristic markers of all the subclades of either haplogroup respectively. No additional markers are required, so as to declare any YAP+ marker fitting that profile as a more "upstream" clade over hg E or hg D.

As astenb's example shows, the marker with more motif changes is likely to be the more downstream marker than the one with less mutations and more ancestral-state loci [i.e. the more basal clade], in which case, the former is awaiting to be placed into its own downstream clade. If this former clade was the one presumably identified in Tibetian sample, and the latter was the African example, then this is further testament to Tibetian examples being derivatives of African examples, as opposed to being sibling clades.

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Jacki Lopushonsky
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Listing Criteria for SNP Inclusion
into the ISOGG Y-DNA Haplogroup Tree - 2010

1. These recommendations are to assure that there is a uniform set of criteria for accepting binary polymorphisms for defining and placing clades on the ISOGG Y-Chromosome Haplogroup Tree. We define binary polymorphism (BP) as a polymorphism with two states. It could be a single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) or an insertion/deletion (indel).

2. While not a part of the definition for binary polymorphism, it is expected that the markers proposed for inclusion as defining markers for haplogroups will also have the characteristics: (a) the effective mutation rate will be less than approximately 5 x 10-7, and (b) that the polymorphism has not been observed more than twice in human history.

3. To be accepted the BP has to be observed at least twice in separate individuals and satisfy either the frequency or STR diversity requirements to exclude the BP from being classified as private (as defined in section 12).

4. In exceptional cases other variants may be considered for inclusion on a case by case basis if they can be clearly demonstrated to have an allele state or range with equivalent properties to binary markers, but the burden of proof required will be much higher and at the discretion of the committee.

5. We would like to avoid the inclusion of new binary polymorphisms where it is not clear how they relate to previously established binary polymorphisms.

6. Non-Terminal Branch BPs

1. The supporting information provided by the proposer should demonstrate that the new BP is downstream of an established BP and has been tested in individuals who have also been tested for all potential (well established and non-private) downstream BPs.

2. For example, suppose that a new BP is discovered and that it is claimed to be 1) within Haplogroup F and 2) ancestral to both Haplogroups G and H, but not to I, J, or K. Then several persons should have been tested to demonstrate that those who are confirmed as being in either Haplogroup G or Haplogroup H are also derived for the new BP, and that at least two persons who are in each of Haplogroups I, J, and K are ancestral for the new BP. The individuals tested in each group also need to be unrelated. The test for unrelatedness here and elsewhere will be the provision of an associated STR haplotype whose allele values differ in 15% or more of the markers genotyped.

7. Terminal Branch BPs

1. In the case where the new BP is the terminal branch of an existing clade that already has existing sub-branches, then:

1. at least 2 unrelated individuals that are derived for the new BP need to be tested for every existing sub-branch (i.e. sister clade) defining BP, with the exception of private BPs (see section 12), and shown to be ancestral for these sister clade BPs.

2. at least 2 unrelated individuals that are derived for each sister clade BP are tested with the new BP and shown to be ancestral.

2. In the case where the new BP is the new terminal sub-branch of an existing terminal BP, then it should also be demonstrated that it is not restricted solely to close relatives. This can be achieved by demonstrating that two or more derived state individuals have greater than 15% mismatches in their associated STR profiles, plus any results where the ancestral state of the BP was detected.

8. Acceptance Process

1. The ISOGG committee will accept proposed new BPs in a two-step process. First the discoverer of the BP (or a third party, knowledgeable about the BP) can email Whit Athey or David Wilson and describe where the new BP fits in the cladogram. The committee can tentatively incorporate this BP according to this advice and make any structural changes to the haplgroup tree necessitated by it. The discoverer (or third party) then would provide the evidence as stated above for the proposed placement within the period of one month from the provisional placement on the tree. Therefore, new BPs should not be submitted until this deadline is a reasonable one. When the additional information is received, the BP would be classified as either added (full confirmation) if full evidence as described above was available, or confirmed (within subclade) if sufficient information was available to meet that requirement (see below). In the latter case it would be expected that when sufficient additional evidence was collected it would be provided and the BP would move to added (full confirmation).

9. Added BPs are color coded and defined as: BPs that have met all of the criteria listed above for inclusion and did not appear on last year's tree.

10. Provisional BPs are color coded and defined as: BPs newly submitted to the ISOGG committee that have sufficient information to be placed in the tree with some certainty, but insufficient to meet all the criteria above and are awaiting evidence as described above.

11. Confirmed BPs within Subclade are color coded and defined as: a BP that has been demonstrated through use of an appropriate logic model and testing that the BP is within the subclade shown on the tree. This classification is appropriate where derived samples for some or all of the other BPs within the same subclade are not yet available for testing.

12. Private SNPs are color coded and are defined as:

1. EITHER a BP that has been observed only once, or has been observed multiple times but the associated STR profiles show less than 15% of markers have diverged.

2. OR a BP for which NO specified population have been demonstrated to exist where the frequency is greater than 0.05% (P<0.05) and whose total male population exceeds 500 thousand individuals as defined geographically or ethnically.


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beyoku
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Grasping at straws. Here is something to ponder.
Seeing that people like you are 96% Human and people like me are 100% Human since people like you are bout 4% NEANDERTHAL.....

quote:
"The scenario is not what most people had envisioned. We found the genetic signal of Neanderthals in all the non-African genomes, meaning that the admixture occurred early on, probably in the Middle East, and is shared with all descendants of the early humans who migrated out of Africa."
Source

Source

If DE* or even E* had an origin in Eurasia wouldn't most Africans also be partial Neanderthal since this would have also back migrated? LOL

You lose.

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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quote:
Originally posted by astenb:
Grasping at straws. Here is something to ponder.
Seeing that people like you are 96% Human and people like me are 100% Human since people like you are bout 4% NEANDERTHAL.....

quote:
"The scenario is not what most people had envisioned. We found the genetic signal of Neanderthals in all the non-African genomes, meaning that the admixture occurred early on, probably in the Middle East, and is shared with all descendants of the early humans who migrated out of Africa."
Source

Source

If DE* or even E* had an origin in Eurasia wouldn't most Africans also be partial Neanderthal since this would have also back migrated? LOL

You lose.

 -

Non Prophet is a Joke..LMAO
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Jacki Lopushonsky
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quote:
Originally posted by astenb:
Grasping at straws. Here is something to ponder.
Seeing that people like you are 96% Human and people like me are 100% Human since people like you are bout 4% NEANDERTHAL.....

quote:
"The scenario is not what most people had envisioned. We found the genetic signal of Neanderthals in all the non-African genomes, meaning that the admixture occurred early on, probably in the Middle East, and is shared with all descendants of the early humans who migrated out of Africa."
Source

Source

If DE* or even E* had an origin in Eurasia wouldn't most Africans also be partial Neanderthal since this would have also back migrated? LOL

You lose.

 -

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=003725;p=1#000009

Only Yorubans and San were tested for Neandertal admixture. East Africans have yet to be tested and are the key to the puzzle that may soon overturn SORT or OOA.

Yo YO, chek dat Cave devil Neandertal AZZ, AIGHT...yA NO WAT im sayin, keep bangin on da beast Hotep
 -

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beyoku
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^ Nope silly. You are making the argument that DE* and E* are "Eurasian." If DE* and E* aka: "YAP+" both have origins in Eurasia and Yorubans are about 90% or more "YAP+" then they too would have Neanderthal Admixture. Why? Because DE* and E* would have "returned to North East Africa" along with that Neanderthal Admixture, admixture which would have spread from North East Africa into West Africa where Yorubans are found. Yorubans are more likely to be more exclusively YAP+ because of the lack of Haplogroups A and B which are widespread in North East Africa.

Since this is the case Yorubans, a high YAP+ population, would be a better candidate when examining the presence of Neanderthal Admixture vs North East Africans. particularly if such admixture would have returned to Africa via the Yap+ Marker.

For the Lulz.
Why do you keep getting intellectually decapitate by a low IQ Negro such as myself? LOL
 -

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Jacki Lopushonsky
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quote:
Originally posted by astenb:
^ Nope silly. You are making the argument that DE* and E* are "Eurasian." If DE* and E* aka: "YAP+" both have origins in Eurasia and Yorubans are about 90% or more "YAP+" then they too would have Neanderthal Admixture. Why? Because DE* and E* would have "returned to North East Africa" along with that Neanderthal Admixture, admixture which would have spread from North East Africa into West Africa where Yorubans are found. Yorubans are more likely to be more exclusively YAP+ because of the lack of Haplogroups A and B which are widespread in North East Africa.

Since this is the case Yorubans, a high YAP+ population, would be a better candidate when examining the presence of Neanderthal Admixture vs North East Africans. particularly if such admixture would have returned to Africa via the Yap+ Marker.

For the Lulz.
Why do you keep getting intellectually decapitate by a low IQ Negro such as myself? LOL
 -

Hahaha, please tell me you're joking right and not serious. Neandertal admixture is not shown in the uniparental Sapien line but in the Autosomal dna. Also, your studies don't conclusively show paraphyletic DE* origins. Are you a masochist? LOL
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beyoku
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Exactly DUMBO. If Damn near 100% of a male population supposedly comes form "Eurasia":(YAP+), and ALL "Eurasians" have Neanderthal Admixture......Then West Africans would have it also because DAMN near 100% of their male Ancestors would be "Eurasian". It doesn't matter that the admixture is not on the Y-Chromosome, The Y-chomosome would tell us that 90% of the population would come from a region where 100% of the population would have Neanderthal Admixture : Eurasia **** for brains.

Why would you choose to sample a populations that has a lower % of YAP+ because they have a lot of Haplogroup A and B?

Here is an example for you.......now that i think if it there is no need to make a simpler example because the concept is as simple a it gets : How can a population come from Eurasians if they do not contain a trait that ALL EURASIANS HAVE : Neanderthal Admixture?

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