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TRIPOLI — Two members of Libya's Amazigh Berber minority have been arrested for espionage, the country's security service said on Tuesday, responding to claims by Amnesty International.
Twin brothers Mazigh and Maghris Bouzahar, accused of "spying for a foreign intelligence agency" have been arrested and are being investigated by the state prosecutor, Libya's intelligence agency said on its website.
On Thursday, Amnesty urged Tripoli to "immediately clarify the whereabouts and legal status of four men -- two Libyan and two Moroccan nationals -- held in Libya seemingly in connection with Amazigh cultural or academic activities."
The London-based rights watchdog "expressed concerns that the four men might be held solely on account of their... Amazigh language and culture, in which case they would be prisoners of conscience."
Amnesty said that the Bouzahar brothers were arrested on December 16 at their Tripoli home by intelligence officers who later "confiscated a number of items, including all books related to Amazigh culture and a computer."
It identified the Moroccans as researchers from The Royal Institute of Berber Culture -- Al Mahfouz Asmari and Hassan Ramou -- and said their families lost contact with them on December 19, after they had travelled to Libya from Tunisia.
Libya's security services rejected Amnesty's "allegations" and confirmed that the two Moroccans were freed "out of respect to Moroccan officials".
The Libyan security service said it was "well aware that foreign intelligence agencies use research -- be it academic, historic, archaeological or cultural -- as cover for their activities."
In June, Libyan leader Moamer Kadhafi repeated denials that the Amazigh Berber minority resides in his country, stating that these tribes "disappeared and no longer exist."
Amazigh -- which means "free men" in the Berber language -- represent 10 percent of Libya's population and have been demanding recognition ever since Kadhafi seized power in 1969.
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Ha! That's funny. Look at uncle Muammar's face. Indigenous North African features not ones like Saudi Peninsulars.
This is disappointing news considering not long ago Ghaddafi cried the blues about ethnic Arab rejection of North Africans yet he carries on this self-hatred against truly African Imazighen while playing Pan-African leader.
He knows full well a lect of Tamazight exists in Libya as a generation to generation mother tongue.
Amazigh -- which means "free men" in the Berber language -- represent 10 percent of Libya's population and have been demanding recognition ever since Kadhafi seized power in 1969.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Belkacem Lounes, president of the World Amazigh Congress, wrote an open letter to Libyan leader Mu'ammar Qaddafi in response to the latter's March 1 speech in which he denied the existence of a Berber or Amazigh[1] people in North Africa. In his letter, dated April 10, Lounes protested Qaddafi's statements, saying that the 30 million Amazigh living today in North Africa cannot be ignored. He added that the Amazigh had played a central role in the fight against European colonialism, but that since independence they had been oppressed by the "internal colonialism" of pan-Arabism, which he labels an imperialist ideology. Lounes stated that it was archaic to consider diversity a danger, and calls on the North African governments to commit to democracy and human rights.
The following are excerpts:[2] "What Worse Offense to Elementary Rights is There Than Denying The Existence Of a People?"
"… I waited until April to respond to your speech, since it is during this month that the Amazigh people celebrates every year… a great moment in its history, known as the 'Tafsut Imazighen' ('Amazigh Spring').[3] For us, this is a celebration of our memory, of our spirit of resistance to all forms of imperialism, and of our love of liberty…
"The people of whom you spoke [in your speech] are women, men, and children who speak their Amazigh language daily. They are women, men, and children who live every day their Amazigh identity, which your words injured. What worse offense to elementary rights is there than denying the existence of a people?..." "It is Difficult to Imagine That You Are Unaware of... 30 Million Amazigh Speakers" In North Africa
"You claim that Amazigh civilization disappeared due to 'a century of drought in North Africa'… It is difficult to imagine that you are unaware of the existence of 30 million Amazigh-speakers living today in all of the countries of Tamazgha [i.e. North Africa]…
"You let it be understood that the Amazigh are supposedly an invention of colonialism! What colonialism is capable of creating a people ex nihilo, with its language and traditions that go back several thousand years? How could colonialism have done this – given that when the first foreigner arrived on North African soil, he found that the Amazigh had already been there for a long time?...
"How to explain these contradictions and the brutal return to this desire to negate a tangible history and reality? You even denied the evidence, when you assured us that the Amazigh problem did not exist in Libya. But… the Libyan Amazigh, like Amazigh elsewhere, face ostracism, exclusion, and discrimination of all kinds…" "Thinking That Diversity Is a Danger is an Archaic and Totalitarian Idea"
"You say that 'Libya is for the Libyans' and that you will not accept anyone's saying that they have this identity or that identity.
"So be it – but then [you] must immediately suppress any reference to Arab identity in all of the country's legislative texts, as well as in the names of political, economic, and cultural institutions, starting with the Arab Libyan Republic, Libyan Arab Airlines, the Union of the Arab Maghreb, etc. Then we will be entirely [favorably] disposed to speak of a 'Libyan Libya,' with its history, languages, and cultures. But if your conception of Libya is one of an exclusively Arab country, then for us, the fight for our identity continues…
"You menace the Amazigh, warning that whosoever asserts their identity will be considered a traitor in the service of colonialism… Thinking that diversity is a danger is an archaic and totalitarian idea that is contrary to all of the principles of universal rights. "We Are a People... Determined To Live Free"
"In addition, I see it as my obligation to repeat here what I told you [face to face]: We are a people and we are determined to live free, whatever it costs us. We are generally peaceful and hospitable. Whoever offers us his hand, we take him into our arms. But whoever tries to keep us from living in dignity, we will fight him with all legitimate means." The Amazigh Were the First to Fight Colonialism
"As for colonialism, history proves that the colonizers did not need us in order to occupy our country. On the contrary – the first to have fought them were the Amazigh, because they felt that they were defending their country, their ancestral land.
"In the Algerian national movement, when the Amazigh of the country posed, in the 1940s, the question of Algerian identity after independence, the Arab nationalist clans immediately accused them of dividing the movement and of playing colonialism's game, and excluded them.
"More than half a century later, at a 2005 colloquium in Algiers on the history of Algerian nationalism, the historians [at the conference] unanimously confirmed that the true patriots were precisely the group of those excluded, as they laid the foundations for an authentic and democratic Algeria – an Algeria that is first and foremost Algerian, rich in its Amazigh identity and in all of its linguistic and cultural components.
"There is an identical ingratitude towards the Amazigh of Morocco, who provided the largest contingents in the struggle against the Spanish and French occupiers in the Rif and the Atlas. Today the heroes of this resistance are neglected in official history.
"The same misfortune befell the Amazigh of Libya who, after very many of them had consented to make the supreme sacrifice for the liberty of all Libyans, find themselves today menaced, reviled, and deprived of their very right to existence by those at whose side and for whom they fought…" "Establishing a Culture of Dialogue and Friendship… Requires Merciless Struggle Against All Acts of Intolerance, Racism, and Discrimination"
"We like to think that colonialism no longer exists… But there is no worse colonialism than internal colonialism – that of the pan-Arabist clan that seeks to dominate our people. It is surely Arabism, in that it is an imperialist ideology that refuses any diversity in North Africa, that constitutes a betrayal and an offense to history, truth, and legality.
"Even the Muslim religion has been put into the service of these projects of Arabization and domination. The Amazigh queen Dihya was the first, 14 centuries ago, to have understood this colonial strategy - which is why she declared to the Arabs who came to attack her kingdom: 'You say that you are carrying a divine message? Fine then, leave it here, and return whence you came'...[4]
"In principle, it is the responsibility of every head of state to protect, respect, and promote the rights of his people. The challenge of establishing a culture of dialogue and friendship among civilizations and peoples requires a merciless struggle against all acts of intolerance, racism, and discrimination.
"Thus, we expect the Arab heads of state in North Africa both to abolish the policies of negation and exclusion of the Amazigh people and to [show] much more ambition regarding human rights. It is with respect to the recognition of the Amazigh people and its inalienable rights that the sincerity of the governments and their will to build peaceful societies will be measured…
"In the meantime, strong in the justice of our cause and convinced of the legitimacy of our rights, we will unflaggingly continue our fight for dignity and liberty for our people through democratic means. We reaffirm today that, in light of the impasses towards which the Arabist governments of North Africa are driving us, it is urgent that we assume the right to take our destiny in hand, in asking the community of nations for its support for us to exercise our right to self-determination, in all of the countries of Tamazgha [i.e. North Africa] in which we live.
"As befits our noble fight, we will remain eternal optimists, permanently in search of reasons to hope, encouraging and privileging the positive aspects of human nature, and always endeavoring to give a chance to the least glimmer, the least opening for liberty…"
Endnotes:
[1] Many Berbers prefer to refer to themselves as "Amazigh," a term in their language meaning "one who is free."
[3] The Amazigh or Berber Spring (tafsut n imazighen) commemorates a watershed in the modern Berber cultural movement. On March 10, 1980, the Algerian government prevented Mouloud Mammeri, a Kabyle Berber author, linguist, and cultural icon, from delivering a lecture on ancient Kabyle poetry at a university in Tizi Ouzo, the major city in Kabylia. This sparked a series of protests and strikes that lasted several months, and led to the arrest of Berber leaders and democracy activists.
[4] According to early North African historiography, Dihya, also known as the Kahina, was a Berber queen who led the resistance to the Arab conquests.
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On the issue of Africa as a two toned continent, despite all else, I find North African Arabs of local descent more favorable and recognizing of relations to Savannah, Sahel, and Saharan dark Africans and Amazigh activists/nationalists to be melanophobic and often openly racist.
And that is the quandry dark sub-Saharan Africans face in analyzing and reacting to supra-Saharan light Africans.
There is no reciprocation between the two since the one present themselves as illegak aliens bound for Europe in the nations of the other who essentially have no use (diamonds excluded) for the countries of origin of the migrants.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Strange that the Amazigh activists would be so racists given that there are millions of "black" Berbers. Do they feel their status is enhanced by "whitening"? So they can therefore "disavow" other Berber speakers like many Tuareg?
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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The ranks of the Amazigh activists/nationalists are comprised of white North Africans many of whom are half and even three quarters or more of Mediterranean European parentage.
Kel Tagelmust/Kel Tamasheq and Haratin ttbomk aren't affiliated with the Amazigh movement and their Saharan reality is far removed from the coastal Algerian Kabyle and other Atlas Imazighen.
However physically "black" any individual Tuareg may be that ethny has never ranked among the "Sudani" ethnies per internal reckoning by native Maghrebi and West Africans themselves.
Even if all of the Kel Tamasheq were considered black they only amount to ~1.2 - 4 million people per conflicting census rolls equaling roughly 3 - 12% of the total "Berber" speaking population.
Up to 4 million like the above maybe 8 million of "old stock" leaving 20 million of the below
Due to centuries of adversity between Kel Tagelmust and "Western Sudanese" the former would side with the actvist in forming a political entity, the Republic of Tamazgha, a threat to Mali and Niger as much as to the Maghreb states.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Like white Jews, white Berbers are racist. White people, no matter what they call themselves, are racist. No brainer.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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"Even the Muslim religion has been put into the service of these projects of Arabization and domination. The Amazigh queen Dihya was the first, 14 centuries ago, to have understood this colonial strategy - which is why she declared to the Arabs who came to attack her kingdom: 'You say that you are carrying a divine message? Fine then, leave it here, and return whence you came'...[4]
What Louenes says is quite right re the struggle of the Berbers against foreign Arab domination. But a key part of that fight too should also include the Black Berbers- namely the Flittas. As one scholar says about them:
"A remarkable isolate is that of the Flittas who live at Zemmora, southeast of Oran, and have a long history of fierce resistance to successive rulers of Algeria.. Their ABO frequencies are unique, with 18 per cent of A2 genes, the highest frequency known except in the Lapps of northern Scandinavia. The total A gene frequency reaches the high level of 30 per cent, and M at 57 per cent is also well above the general North Africa level. The presence of 26 per cent of cDe shows considerable Negro admixture, presumably long ago. The high A2 frequency remains a mystery—it is presumably the result of genetic drift or natural selection.." -- P. D'Adamo (2009) "Blood types: Subgroups of Type A."
Assorted activists should not themselves create a distorted picture of just who "authentic" Berbers are, nor slight the contribution they made in fighting for land and liberty. If said activists do indeed engage in racist distortion, then they are just as bad as the Semitic oppressors.
The Flittas by the way show that blood type "A2" is no "caucasoid" monopoly.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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@altakruri, the white-black question is not interesting to the Berber activists. That is an euro-american illness. Those who call themselves harratins are mostly anti-Berbers since they consider themselves as black africans enslaved by the Berbers.
But the black berbers are not isolated from the berber activism.
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I had it what you say above is the case AS WELL AS that those who take the nationalist activism a step further and call themselves the self name Amazigh (Amazighen) as opposed to their *colonial* name "Berber" generally don't identify with blacks, and most black Berbers just being Berber activists not Amazigh activists.
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Anybody can play a concert. If I am misinformed that doesn't make me a liar.
Where are the Kel Tamasheq written works of Amazigh activism/nationalism against the governments of Burkina Faso, Mali, and Niger that are the same the Kabyle and Riffians write, advocate, and deliver to the Algerian and Moroccan governments?
And mind you I'm not asking for the well known centuries old ongoing conflict between "Berber" and "Black" since the 9th century.
The Haratin are anti-Berber? News to me. Indigenous Saharan Haratin and Black Maurs are "Berber." Their languages and cultures are not that of the Gnawa West Africans.
You wording shows there is a black-white question interest by Berbercentrics like yourself. Look how you juxtapose Berber and black African as if a Berber can neither be black nor African and much less Black African in physical anthropoly terms.
Aren't you the Berber who rejected the dark description of Tariq and only accept a description of him as blonde to be valid?
Aren't you the Berber who kept trying to twist ibn Butlan words about Berber women being mostl blackish with a few pale ones in the bunch into a description of Somali females?
You suffer the illness you perscribe to the Euro-Americans.
You are no different than the Amazigh activists who's writings on North African history removes the black element and projects a predominant white Kabyle type physiognomy into the pre-Islamic past where it does not exist.
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: @altakruri, the white-black question is not interesting to the Berber activists. That is an euro-american illness. Those who call themselves harratins are mostly anti-Berbers since they consider themselves as black africans enslaved by the Berbers.
But the black berbers are not isolated from the berber activism.
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OK, sorry for calling you liar, it is true to say you're misinformed. I know you don't hate the Berbers. But i know more..., sorry to recall thay you are jew and black. You generally believe that the Berber activists hate the jews and the blacks. I can prove the opposite view. The Berber activists try to make a brothership with jews. but that is exclusif to the activists. Since the "normal berbers" make no difference between berber and arab, and they blinded with arabo-islamic propaganda. (If you need a proof, be sure i can provide more than one).
Balcks: The show above is not only music show, since they have the Amazigh flag, the amazigh/berber flag is used only by berber activists. You can find it here in their concert in chicago: Note they show their berber background with the berber flag created by the activists: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eux--UwKhv8&feature=related
read also the replies under the video, and tell me if any berber has rejected them as berbers.
Written sources? Sorry could you precize your question, because i didn't understand it.
White tariq: Because the tradational sources said so.
Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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I don't recall declaring my complete ethnic makeup on this forum. You've never met me so don't suppose who I know or what is my social circle. The issue is not solely academic for me and what I write is from personal experience.
In my experience with WAC Amazigh activists I know there is anti-black bias, prejudice, and discrimination and buy-in to many Eurocentric concepts of Africa concerning both "Berber" and Black. On the other hand I see a defending of Judeo-Berbers by activists and even know of one prominent Amazigh activist who is a secret Jew and another one who converted to Ashkenazi Judaism.
I also know of marriages between Berber and Black and the aftermath both failed and successful and the "racial" suicide or cultural melding as individual lives varied and the impact on the resulting "hamria" families.
The world is a complex place though we procede with certain generalities as givens but find them false in some cases.
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: ... sorry to recall thay you are jew and black. You generally believe that the Berber activists hate the jews and the blacks.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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It is possible (underlined) that you met an anti-black berber. I also met some anti-black berbers. and they existe. I can also suppose that black berbers have the same attitude. but personally, i never met them. This is general about the berbers. but in berber activism such white-black question doesn't exist, excepts those who attack the afrocentrists who adopte anti-berber theories for existence and history.
Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Im not an Afrocenrist, but the main theories I can name about Berbers is..
1) The Berber Language originates in East Africa..
2) N. Africa was originally inhabited by Blacks..
3) The Lighter Berbers have signifigant and recent European and Asiatic Mixture...
And I have seen my fair share of Racist Berbers who somehow convinced themselves they are "White"....but get mad when Gadaffi say Berbers are Really Arabs
Makes no sense in One Breath you all claim to be Africans and get mad when someone calls you foreign white Invaders...but in the same breath call yourselves "White" or "Caucasian" Or "Med" when it suits you...
I wonder If Gadaffi had said you are were really White Caucasians would the Berbers be up in arms...
And as Far as Tariq Ibn Ziyad goes, even if "Tradition" says he was Blond and white, Despite no accurate written Source to back it up...
His Army would have been full of Blacks such as the Moors, and Black Haratin. Placing Blacks in Al-Andalus from the first Invasion.
and Don't forget about Yusuf ibn Tashfin, the Almoravid General who Founded the city of Merrakesh....
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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What can be understood is that Berber language as you said comes from East Africa. We know there is Black Berebers who are the pristine people that Ancient Berbers would of looked like.
We also know that light skinned Berbers have genes from Southern Europe and Sea People etc.
When I think about Berbers promoting themselves they ignorantly exclude the Black berbers as slaves even though it's the "Light" Skinned berbers that are decendant of slaves.....We see this because of the White slavery that was circulating in North Africa.
What can be said is that Berbers Black or White need to rally together and support eachother....Thats the only way they are going to get any rights from the Arabized Berbers.
Then we have whats happening in Tunisia where the people have toppled there corrupt governments and are looking for rights and Jobs. We must support this because it plays a role in other NA and Middle Eastern countries. The people have been screwed over by corrupt elites for too long. Change is needed in attitudes and how the people see each other.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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Mazigh, I've noticed that you have no reservations about using the term "Berber". Does it not bother you when an outside word is used to identify your kind, assuming you are Amazigh.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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No Doubt Mazie is Berber, Ive seen his website. Even the most Racist, White Euro-bootlicking Amazigh refer to themselves as "Berber"....I.E Fawal. Fawal would beg the whiteman for acceptance if he could.
Berber to them is Negro to African Americans in the 20th century.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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I am not sure that outside of diasporan Tamazight-speakers and possibly within small cliques of the relatively wealthy, that otherwise ordinary continental African Tamazights refer to themselves, i.e. amongst themselves, as "berbers".
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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I prefer the name "amazigh", hence my name "mazigh", but i'm not so negative, and therefor, i use the word "berber" so that the reader know where it is about. We call ourself never berber in the berber language. but we call ourself "amaizgh, imazighen (pl.)". and our language is tamazight. some forgot the name "amazigh" and use instead the name referring to their regional name like "kabyle".
Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The ranks of the Amazigh activists/nationalists are comprised of white North Africans many of whom are half and even three quarters or more of Mediterranean European parentage.
Kel Tagelmust/Kel Tamasheq and Haratin ttbomk aren't affiliated with the Amazigh movement and their Saharan reality is far removed from the coastal Algerian Kabyle and other Atlas Imazighen.
However physically "black" any individual Tuareg may be that ethny has never ranked among the "Sudani" ethnies per internal reckoning by native Maghrebi and West Africans themselves.
Even if all of the Kel Tamasheq were considered black they only amount to ~1.2 - 4 million people per conflicting census rolls equaling roughly 3 - 12% of the total "Berber" speaking population.
Up to 4 million like the above maybe 8 million of "old stock" leaving 20 million of the below
Due to centuries of adversity between Kel Tagelmust and "Western Sudanese" the former would side with the actvist in forming a political entity, the Republic of Tamazgha, a threat to Mali and Niger as much as to the Maghreb states.
Unfortunately the Tuaregs, who are split between various nations and not solely identified with any "nationalist" cause are being caught up in the mess within Libya and are suffering for it:
quote: Hundreds of young Tuareg from Mali and Niger, including former rebels, are being recruited Gaddafi to fight off a popular uprising, officials in northern Mali said.
"We are worried in many respects," said Abdou Salam Ag Assalat, president of the Regional Assembly of Kidal.
These young people "are going in masses (to Libya). It's very dangerous for us because whether Gaddafi resists or he falls, there will be an impact for our region."
He said regional authorities "are trying to dissuade them" from leaving, particularly ex-rebels, but that it was not easy as there were "dollars and weapons" waiting for them.
"All of that scares me, really, because one day they will come back with the same arms to destabilise the Sahel," said Assalat, adding that "a former Malian Tuareg rebel leader is also in Libya", but did not mention his name.
He said an entire network was in place to organise the trip to Libya.
"Kadhafi's reach stretches to us. He knows who to call, they make group trips. There seems to be an air link from Chad. Others go by road to southern Libya."
The mayor of Kidal, Arbacane Ag Bazayak, shared the same concern: "What will they do next? Come back with the same weapons. It is a danger for the entire sub-region."
The Tuareg, a nomadic community of about 1.5 million people are divided between Niger, Mali, Algeria, Libya and Burkina Faso. In the 1990s and 2000 Mali and Niger were plagued by Tuareg rebellions.
Witnesses report the presence of sub-Saharan African citizens in Libya, who are being used as mercenaries by pro-Kadhafi forces.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: while playing Pan-African leader.
For someone who goes to such lengths to apologize for white Jews and their hateful Talmudic tradition you are one to point fingers at others. Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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Got any comments on Libyan blacks (speaking impecable Libyan Arabic), non-Libyan black employees in the oil industry, and nearly indigent migrant non-Libyan African blacks all being indiscriminantly beat to death stripped, disfigured, and displayed on the hoods of roaming autos by Libyan Arabs while Libyan Arab mercenaries go unscathed by Libyan Arab "revolutionaries?"
No, huh?
I see.
Rave on myopic madman, rant and rave on.
I heard you turned down brother Louie's request for you to go over and help uncle Muamar but I guess some Jew frightened you out of it. Boo! A Jew!! Aaaagghhhhhhh!!!
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Got any comments on Libyan blacks (speaking impecable Libyan Arabic), non-Libyan black employees in the oil industry, and nearly indigent migrant non-Libyan African blacks all being indiscriminantly beat to death stripped, disfigured, and displayed on the hoods of roaming autos by Libyan Arabs while Libyan Arab mercenaries go unscathed by Libyan Arab "revolutionaries?"
No, huh?
I see.
Rave on myopic madman, rant and rave on.
I heard you turned down brother Louie's request for you to go over and help uncle Muamar but I guess some Jew frightened you out of it. Boo! A Jew!! Aaaagghhhhhhh!!!
The funniest part of all this being that these so-called "Arab" revolutionaries in Libya are more European, Turkish and African mulattoes than actually Arab. Just because they are light skinned does not mean they are generally any more Arab than those black Sudanese claiming Arab identity. Yes it is a color revolution but one more concerned with skin color more so than any actual Arab genetic ancestry. Not to mention the mixed ancestry of Arabs in Arabia to begin with.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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They are Arab in language and culture and in the Arab world that, and a manufactured pedigree, is enough to qualify as Arab. They have the right to self-determine their identity. This is what they have chosen.
Phenotype isn't the Arab determinant but in Libya the vast majority is somewhat light skinned and let's face it in general their phenotype is out of place in Tschad and Niger.
This ongoing tumult in Libya is not about colour but colour serves Libyan Arabs as a scapegoat for their frustrations. It seems that southern Libyans and Libyans of phenotype approaching that of Africans to the south are in need of verification from white Arab Libyans to escape mob violence.
Arab Sudanis with a stereotypical African black phenotype caught hell and were evacuated from Libya according to reports I have seen.
For white identifying people when troubles arise and blacks are highly visible in their surrounds "blame it all upon the darkies."
This is a global dynamic. It's hard but everywhere in the world blacks get the short end of the stick and when times get hard even monied blacks without a white protector nearby discover this ugly truth.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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^ Indeed it is a sad state of affairs. And Kadhafi must be out of his mind (although it wouldn't be a first) for stating that Berber tribes no longer exist in Libya. If that is the case then what are we to make of these people below?
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: They are Arab in language and culture and in the Arab world that, and a manufactured pedigree, is enough to qualify as Arab. They have the right to self-determine their identity. This is what they have chosen.
Phenotype isn't the Arab determinant but in Libya the vast majority is somewhat light skinned and let's face it in general their phenotype is out of place in Tschad and Niger.
This ongoing tumult in Libya is not about colour but colour serves Libyan Arabs as a scapegoat for their frustrations. It seems that southern Libyans and Libyans of phenotype approaching that of Africans to the south are in need of verification from white Arab Libyans to escape mob violence.
Arab Sudanis with a stereotypical African black phenotype caught hell and were evacuated from Libya according to reports I have seen.
For white identifying people when troubles arise and blacks are highly visible in their surrounds "blame it all upon the darkies."
This is a global dynamic. It's hard but everywhere in the world blacks get the short end of the stick and when times get hard even monied blacks without a white protector nearby discover this ugly truth.
Agreed. They have the right to identify as they like to, unfortunately everything but black African. That is the issue I am talking about. The "Arab" identity in Africa, takes on a very sinister aspect when you realize many of the so-called "Arab" traditions don't even exist in Arabia. A lot of it is simply made up to strip the populations of any desire or ability to identify themselves as Africans and to understand the significance of that identification.
Hence, one can go to Mauritania and hear all this so called "Arab" music which is found nowhere in Arabia and certainly has nothing to do with the true traditional music of Mauritania, even though it uses Mauritanian traditional musical instruments.
So why go through all this effort? Because Africans cannot simply be African Muslims or Africans and coexist in an Arab centric society. But even more sinister than that, the African historic identity and role in Islam and the larger Islamic world must be minimized in order to promote this view. Therefore, this is why the true music and culture of Mauritania like this:
cannot be pushed and has to be ostracized. This ties to ancient African identity and culture, including aspects of ancient dwarf/pygmy worship in the form of Bes, Ibiza, Punic Spain, the original Moors, ancient Egypt, the Sahara and so forth.
So instead you get the "Arab" identification reinforced through this music, which isn't even Arabian:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxiWJLSP_e8&feature=player_embedded (traditional Mauritanian music with no drums, all the African elements taken out and an Arabic/Middle Eastern tonal system to produce something alien to Africa in order to reinforce "Arab" identity)
(Please show me someone who will challenge these folks on their Arab identity or being true muslims...)
Of all 4 main groups involved in Islam the ONLY ones who cannot keep their identity in Islam are the Africans within the context of the "Arab world". The Caucasian Muslims are just that, Caucasians. The Asian Muslims are ASIAN (Turkish, Central Asian, South Asian, etc). The Arabs are Arabs. But when it comes to Africans they have to be something else to be accepted in the "Arab world" even though this concoction is 2/3 IN AFRICA.
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How familiar are you with the musics of the Atlantic Sahel and the Arabian Peninsula?
Saudis aren't Yemini so don't expect Mauritanian maziym (beats) and maqamat (melodies) to resemble Saudi instead of Yemini ones.
You might want to listen to some ud taqsiym and compare styles from different regions.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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