posted
These images are not so easy to find on the web lets make use of them lets send them viral for too long these images remained unknown to most, they give a more balanced picture as to the so-called Mediterranean cultures especially Carthaginian and Phoenician both culturally and biologically. I implore those of you who are into making youtube videos make use of this source as a lot of it will caught most folks off guard.
posted
If the original Moors were black, then why don't the modern Spaniards also look black? Did the black Moors come into Spain and kick butt, set up a civilization for other Europeans to model theirs after, and then retreat back to Africa to their mud huts?
What is the whole point of these Moor threads?
The modern people of Spain look as if they're mixed with people from the Middle East not sub-saharan Africa.
Posts: 676 | From: the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:If the original Moors were black, then why don't the modern Spaniards also look black? Did the black Moors come into Spain and kick butt, set up a civilization for other Europeans to model theirs after, and then retreat back to Africa to their mud huts? What is the whole point of these Moor threads? The modern people of Spain look as if they're mixed with people from the Middle East not sub-saharan Africa.
There is no "if" the original Moors were for the most part blacks, and you have never heard of the reconquesta followed by mass deportations of Moors back into Africa or even other parts of Europe and the cleansing of the blood? The person who made this thread in the first place is a North African of Barber decent. And click the links if you dare Simple!!
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
Pre Greco-Roman,pre Islamic,pre Christian, Pre Vandal,pre French,pre Italian..That's what they looked liked inna in your face kinda way.Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:If the original Moors were black, then why don't the modern Spaniards also look black? Did the black Moors come into Spain and kick butt, set up a civilization for other Europeans to model theirs after, and then retreat back to Africa to their mud huts? What is the whole point of these Moor threads? The modern people of Spain look as if they're mixed with people from the Middle East not sub-saharan Africa.
There is no "if" the original Moors were for the most part blacks, and you have never heard of the reconquesta followed by mass deportations of Moors back into Africa or even other parts of Europe and the cleansing of the blood? The person who made this thread in the first place is a North African of Barber decent. And click the links if you dare Simple!!
Brada
Them gyal there ignorant till it hurts!
You hear she name? Simple gyal.. lol!
Lion!
Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
Quite true; As I have told her many times, she picked a supremely appropriate moniker.
But one can't help but wonder, if she can read these threads, why can't she read a book or encyclopedia or something?
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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The Moors were under the command and lordship of the above white Emperor and assisted the Roman army as auxillary forces against the Dacians (modern day Romania area)
Decebalus or "The Brave" (originally named Diurpaneus)was a king of Dacia (ruled the Dacians 87–106)and is famous for fighting three wars and negotiating two interregnums of peace without being eliminated against the Roman Empire under two emperors
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
And the Danes were referred to as being black because they had darker hair than other Scandanavians. I agree there were probably a handful of blacks during that time, but most of the depictions of Moors that I have seen during the actual time they were in Spain shows them as not being predominately black.
You all post pictures of the way the Moors and others depicted the Moors during the time that the Moors ruled Spain(not some fantasy pictures from the 1800's or any other time} and I'll post mine. You all go first.
Posts: 676 | From: the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Judging from Mazigh's opening post this thread looks like it's for images of Maurs from Roman province of Mauretania from before ~500 CE not the pseudo-Moors of al~Andalus who could be any Muslims of whatever origins living on the Iberian peninsula from 711 CE to 1492 CE.
Mazigh?
I'm pretty sure though that Mazigh shares your opinion on Moors (of any era) not being black or having blacks among them.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by A Simple Girl: And the Danes were referred to as being black because they had darker hair than other Scandanavians. I agree there were probably a handful of blacks during that time, but most of the depictions of Moors that I have seen during the actual time they were in Spain shows them as not being predominately black.
You all post pictures of the way the Moors and others depicted the Moors during the time that the Moors ruled Spain(not some fantasy pictures from the 1800's or any other time} and I'll post mine. You all go first.
A Simple Girl - So your position is that Moors (as in the original people of North Africa) were not Black?
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Still Moors that live in NW Africa. Some of them we would call Black.
Not much different than other Aethiopids and considering their genetic and language, should be easy to understand. Also, Aethiopids are genetically recessive.
A typical Moor would look a lot like this infamous Moor:
did you ever hear that Roman men and women used to wear wigs made from blond hair of the Goths and dark hair of the Indians?....
You prolly never heard about Julia Domna the black Syrian wife of Septimus Severus who loved wearing straight wigs?
Most of those straight hair statutes you see were sporting wigs. Because the Romans, both men and women were notorious for wearing wigs.
You know what else the Romans invented?
BLEACHING CREAM! For themselves to use!....
Romans and bleaching cream:
In 200 B.C., ancient Greek women applied white lead powder and chalk to lighten their skin. It was considered fashionable for Greek women to have a pale complexion.
Roman women also favored a pale complexion. Men also wore makeup to lighten their skin tone. They would use white lead powder, chalk, and creams to lighten their skin tone. Wealthy Romans favored white lead paste, which can lead to disfigurements and death.
Iron why would why would the ancient Greek and Roman so called "olive" toned women bleach their skin to look more like gothic albinos? I thought the hated those folks ???
did you ever hear that Roman men and women used to wear wigs made from blond hair of the Goths and dark hair of the Indians?....
You prolly never heard about Julia Domna the black Syrian wife of Septimus Severus who loved wearing straight wigs?
Most of those straight hair statutes you see were sporting wigs. Because the Romans, both men and women were notorious for wearing wigs.
You know what else the Romans invented?
BLEACHING CREAM! For themselves to use!....
Romans and bleaching cream:
In 200 B.C., ancient Greek women applied white lead powder and chalk to lighten their skin. It was considered fashionable for Greek women to have a pale complexion.
Roman women also favored a pale complexion. Men also wore makeup to lighten their skin tone. They would use white lead powder, chalk, and creams to lighten their skin tone. Wealthy Romans favored white lead paste, which can lead to disfigurements and death.
Iron why would why would the ancient Greek and Roman so called "olive" toned women bleach their skin to look more like gothic albinos? I thought the hated those folks ???
please explain
Go o the thread where you have been outed as a liar, and a plagiarist artist and continue with your queries on Romano Muurish history. Come over here, don't run away :
posted
a Numidian (Moor = unconquered Berbers) depicted by the Numidians themselves: Altakruri is right, this is about the "real Moors" and not the Andalusi muslims.
Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: Still Moors that live in NW Africa. Some of them we would call Black.
Not much different than other Aethiopids and considering their genetic and language, should be easy to understand. Also, Aethiopids are genetically recessive.
A typical Moor would look a lot like this infamous Moor:
osirion - That's not a Moor, that's a Sand Nigger (Moor/Turk) Mulatto.
posted
While Blacks were sleeping, Whites were busy creating their "Fantasy" history, complete with fake artifacts.
Numidia
The Third Punic War
The Numidian King Masinissa, (Numidia was an ancient Berber kingdom in present-day Algeria) whose country abutted Carthage to the west, indirectly provoked the Third Punic War. Through his alliance with Rome in the previous war, he was able to gain permission to reacquire lands Carthage had taken from Numidia. Since Carthage was originally established on Numidian land and with its cooperation, Masinissa could theoretically have occupied all of the territory Carthage controlled. Rather than attract too much attention from Rome, the Numidian king reclaimed small pieces of territory at a time when Rome was occupied in other parts of the Mediterranean world.
Massinissa
The next king Juba I
quote:
That is quite similar to what they (Whites) did with Carthaginian history.
Actually the Roman general Scipio Aemilianus, burnt Carthage to the ground in 146 B.C.
A new city of Carthage was built on the same land by Julius Caesar in 49-44 B.C. period, and by the 1st century it had grown to the second largest city in the western half of the Roman Empire. It was the center of the Roman province of Africa, which was a major breadbasket of the empire.
Yet these are the images Whites show us for the REAL Carthaginians
Hannibal
Dido, legendary founder of Carthage
There is just no other way to put it, Whites are just "DEGENERATE" Liars!Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Andalus was an Islamic civilization and the population was multi-ethnic. This included various European peoples and various African peoples, along with various people from Syria, Persia, Mesopotamia and Arabia. It wasn't simply about "blacks" bringing culture to Spain. Islam at that time was much more of a clearing house for ancient culture and traditions from cultures pre-dating Islam. Hence, you had a blend of ancient Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Persian, Babylonian, Persian, Chinese, Indian and other traditions all blending together into one.
And because each region of the Islamic world had its own "flavor" of art, architecture and culture based on the infusion of local traditions, Andalus was primarily heavily influenced by African traditions, including Egyptian, Berber, Mauritanian, West Africa and Carthage. Obviously all the traditions of Andalus did not originate in Africa. Far from it. But there was an undeniable African stamp on the culture of Andalus because of its proximity to the continent. Much of this can be seen in the traditions of leather work, pottery, jewelry, dress, furniture, metalwork, tile, decoration, embroidery, horse warfare, music and so on. But many of the other primary traditions originate in Syria, including the architecture and so on.
So in reality it was the Islamic world that decided to build an advanced civilization in Andalus not simply blacks.
Posts: 8890 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Doug M - An interesting point; which I had never considered before. Can you give some examples of the discrete contributions? like for instance, examples of the Syrian architecture?
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Note the palmiform patterns and complex stucco work. All of which would be seen prominently in later North Africa and Andalus which was conquered initially by the Umayyads.
Now of course these traditions moved into North Africa and were fused with some local traditions and African aesthetics to produce the Styles of Architecture in North Africa which became the foundational element of Andalusian Architecture. And if you look at some of the older books in North Africa, Mauritania and Timbuktu you will see books with details on how to build the complex designs, stucco and architectural features found in ancient Spain. This represents the means of transmission of the rules of architecture and design which allowed such developments to take place.
Posts: 8890 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Doug M - I don't know that I can agree with you on this. While I do see some design elements, on the whole, Berber architecture seems lighter and more refined.
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: To summarize: The White man is merely a pigmentless Black man - an Albino. He is in no way different - except for skin color - from the Black populations that spawned him, the same for the Mongol.
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Doug M - I don't know that I can agree with you on this. While I do see some design elements, on the whole, Berber architecture seems lighter and more refined.
Like I said, Islamic architecture varies from Region to Region, but the primary basis of North African architecture comes from Syria and Baghdad through the Umayyads and Abbasids. The Africans added to this and then it was further refined in Spain by the Muslims in Spain, which of course included the African, European, Syrian and Arabian Muslims. And all of Early Islamic Architecture was a blend of Roman, Greek, Persian and Mesopotamian architecture. The Arch is truly a Babylonian form that was put to the greatest use by the Romans, the Persians and later Muslims drew on both for inspiration. Of course there were African designs and inspirations that molded this but we cannot say that this all came from Africa. That simply isn't correct.
Keep in mind however, that most of the people in Andalus were not Umayyads therefore, even if the influence came from there it doesn't make the people Syrian.
The primary form of African architectural influence in Islamic Spain and North Africa is the in the use of pools, courtyards and gardens, which extends all the way back to ancient Egypt. Another form of influence is in the usage of glazed tile which, most of which was learned from Egypt. Prior to that they used mosaics which are derived from Mesopotamian and Roman tradition. There is also the tradition of white washed architecture which extends back to the Nile Valley which eventually moved to other parts of North Africa and the Mediterranean during the Islamic period.
posted
Fun comparisons, and maybe it's just a matter of personal taste. But the Moors do seem to have a higher, more refined aesthetic.
As a matter of fact, I really can't think of a civilization with a more refined aesthetic. Their layouts are just the height of magnificence, while at the same time, showing restraint and simplicity.
The Cubans have a festival every year during a special dish of white rice and black beans is prepared. The local name for it is " Christos y Moros. That translates as Christians and Moors. Stands to reason doesn't it.
In Elizabethan times the Moors were described as "blackamoor" and "tawny moor". I imagine "tawny" would mean brown/yellow in complexion.
Finally, not all of Spain was under Moorish and Arab domination. It was mainly Al-Andalus
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I know of at least two Moorish Dynasties (including the alMoravids) with origins in the West African Sahel, i know maur's original meaning was black (hence the darkest later classification for the Muslim invaders was 'black-a-Moor' literally "black as a Moor").
I've seen plenty of artwork and writing on the Moors in Europe conforming to the idea of a lot of dark skinned black looking people. Were there brown skinned and lighter toned swarthy individuals in the Empire? Of course, they even termed those who seemed near Eastern as "saracens" aka "Eastern people".
A professor of mine happened to discuss them and the Reconquista, "invaders, [i]brown[i] people, from [i]AFRICA[i]" as phrased it and no second thought was given to this.
I missed an extra points question from a sub one morning too, and felt dumb afterwords but hadn't noticed the similarity between maur and what i knew moor (but am not sure that i then actually knew the word meant black). The question was a food i think called blank&maurs "white and blacks or something to do with black and a food item.
Edit:
I just wrote the above before even reading the last - lamin's - post. So there you have it from like two different posters.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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Strabo and other Greeks said the Maurusioi of the ancient pre-Islamic Magrheb are described as black men wearing their hair in braided plaits which they "curled with hot irons". They polished their teeth, paired their nails, wore a ring in one ear and leopard skins. They fought mostly with javelins. See article by Dana Reynolds-Marniche in Golden Age of the Moors editor Ivan Van Sertima.
I see many of these men fit that bill. Thanks, Mazigh. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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That log-plait style can be found going back maybe to 1200 BC. In my database, I have images showing it was really common among the Maya. Of course Africa but also the ANE and found in Rome too.
Found in Hungary, India, Turkey, among the Elamite, 19th century Japanese art, Germany. Found throughout Italy.
One day I will make a page showing this coiffure that only wiry / African hair can form.
. .
-------------------- The nature of homelife is the fate of the nation. Posts: 2334 | Registered: May 2006
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posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: These images are not so easy to find on the web lets make use of them lets send them viral Juba 2 said to be related to Cleopatra and Mark Anthony? All the above are Roman era Bronze work
Brada - If the bust you posted above is Juba or Ayyub Brada who is this coin below of.
Coin said to be of the Moorish chief Juba
I think we have to be careful of some of the sculptures posted on Eurowacky sites and wikipedia. Frankly we don't know what the Moorish rulers looked like, or Hannibal. Some of these sculptures being posted come from much later period.
This coin which someone posted as Juba looks more to me like the Moorish Juba. He is wearing either dreadlocks or some other African style, he sports a beard (see Strabo) and has the trademark band around his head Moors were also known to have worn.
Sorry, but the Moors certainly looked a lot more like your average dreaded Rastaman or MIKEY than like the Roman looking man you posted. And I think Juba may have been related to Cleopatra thru his Moorish blood. But i'm not sure. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Strabo and other Greeks said the Maurusioi of the ancient pre-Islamic Magrheb are described as black men wearing their hair in braided plaits which they "curled with hot irons". They polished their teeth, paired their nails, wore a ring in one ear and leopard skins. They fought mostly with javelins. See article by Dana Reynolds-Marniche in Golden Age of the Moors editor Ivan Van Sertima.
I see many of these men fit that bill. Thanks, Mazigh.
I think we have to be careful of some of the sculptures posted on Eurowacky sites and wikipedia. Frankly we don't know what the Moorish rulers looked like, or Hannibal. Some of these sculptures being posted come from much later period.
This coin which someone posted as Juba looks more to me like the Moorish Juba. He is wearing either dreadlocks or some other African style, he sports a beard (see Strabo) and has the trademark band around his head Moors were also known to have worn.
Sorry, but the Moors certainly looked a lot more like your average dreaded Rastaman or MIKEY than like the Roman looking man you posted. And I think Juba may have been related to Cleopatra thru his Moorish blood. But i'm not sure. [/QB]
There were more than one king called Juba
Juba I, same coin type better condition:
______________________________________
Juba II,
Juba II left, Ptolomy, right
Juba II
Juba II
These kings were white people who colonized Africa , not dread locked rastafarians get off the crack pipe and stop boot licking
when confronted wit hundreds of coins find the one that is the most worn out, hold your nose and then dive into the fantasy realm
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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At the turn of the century, Moroccans were undeniably Black people. Now, only a hundred years later, they are Sand Niggers, swearing that they were always like that. Them Niggers really need to leave that White fluff alone - it just causes me too many problems.
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Lioness my dear:
We have shown many times that Whites are not only expert in making fake statues and busts, but also FAKE COINS.
Using your own legendary powers of observation and analysis; Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha, which of these is more likely authentic?
usually you show nothing. Of course there are fake artifacts. But what you do is decide something is fake purely based on whim and extracting it from your buttocks. I wouldn't call that scholarly methods. Both of these coins are real, one is in better condition and the picture is not blurry. When you see a number of the Juba I coins his appearance in these coins is clear. Let me ask you a question. What is wrong to you about the Juba I coin I posted, be specific ?
I don't think you would touch this question with a ten foot pole. You are going to go into your ad homs and try to high post.
I challenge you. Of the coin below what is wrong with it. See if you can answer just the question about the coin free of any remarks about me. See if you can answer the question about this specific coin without making some generalized statement that there are forgeries in the world. We all know that. Why should a blurry picture of a worn coin be real and a non blurry picture of the same type of coin be fake? Thy are both real you bid dummy, deal with it. What are you trying to say, his features don't look black enough for you?
After you answer the question. Then make a separate post trashing me. If that's what turns you on
lioness side note: Juba I was a white man trying to cop black hairstyles, we've all seen itPosts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Lioness my dear:
We have shown many times that Whites are not only expert in making fake statues and busts, but also FAKE COINS.
Using your own legendary powers of observation and analysis; Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha, which of these is more likely authentic?
usually you show nothing. Of course there are fake artifacts. But what you do is decide something is fake purely based on whim and extracting it from your buttocks. I wouldn't call that scholarly methods. Both of these coins are real, one is in better condition and the picture is not blurry. When you see a number of the Juba I coins his appearance in these coins is clear. Let me ask you a question. What is wrong to you about the Juba I coin I posted, be specific ?
I don't think you would touch this question with a ten foot pole. You are going to go into your ad homs and try to high post.
I challenge you. Of the coin below what is wrong with it. See if you can answer just the question about the coin free of any remarks about me. See if you can answer the question about this specific coin without making some generalized statement that there are forgeries in the world. We all know that. Why should a blurry picture of a worn coin be real and a non blurry picture of the same type of coin be fake? Thy are both real you bid dummy, deal with it. What are you trying to say, his features don't look black enough for you?
After you answer the question. Then make a separate post trashing me. If that's what turns you on
lioness side note: Juba I was a white man trying to cop black hairstyles, we've all seen it
Ok Lioness
Don't take the teasing too hard. We all love you, cant you see? Cheer up..
Juba 2 was kidnapped by Ceasar after a war wherein his father died. He was raised in Rome and became heavily romanized when he later was returned as client king. He took to wearing wigs like Romans, and modeled his coins on contemporary Roman coins. Yet you still have some of his coins depicting him as a Numidian
I think we have to be careful of some of the sculptures posted on Eurowacky sites and wikipedia. Frankly we don't know what the Moorish rulers looked like, or Hannibal. Some of these sculptures being posted come from much later period.
This coin which someone posted as Juba looks more to me like the Moorish Juba. He is wearing either dreadlocks or some other African style, he sports a beard (see Strabo) and has the trademark band around his head Moors were also known to have worn.
Sorry, but the Moors certainly looked a lot more like your average dreaded Rastaman or MIKEY than like the Roman looking man you posted. And I think Juba may have been related to Cleopatra thru his Moorish blood. But i'm not sure.
There were more than one king called Juba
Juba I, same coin type better condition:
______________________________________
Juba II,
Juba II left, Ptolomy, right
Juba II
Juba II
These kings were white people who colonized Africa , not dread locked rastafarians get off the crack pipe and stop boot licking
when confronted wit hundreds of coins find the one that is the most worn out, hold your nose and then dive into the fantasy realm [/QB]
Your Snakiness - you can first get off the Eurowackforum pipe posting that nonsense of Roman coins showing white Moors and Carthaginians lol! That's even National Geographic had made an attempt to correct. That kind of forum is probably worse than crack cause it certainly has you all hyped up. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
Dana I have seen other coins of Juba I who is more broad featured in appearance and the Juba II sculpture was reproduced in a work I have seen somewhere but forgot where, thats how i became familiar with both not just the internet sites,I rarely just cut and paste without having prior knowledge of what I am after,I donno but I think Juba II was featured in one of J.A Rogers books, in any case while I disagree with Mike that all non broad featured figures on coins and statues of the early Moors are fakes,I do believe that like the signet rings featuring broad featured Africans were hidden from view and narrow featured folks were presented as the norm. http://books.google.com/books?id=gB6DcMU94GUC&pg=PA427&lpg=PA427&dq=S+Gsell+carthaginian+negroids&source=bl&ots=VZPRBNp7_i&sig=R2FwIblazTRsT- Also a little dated but a lot of still useful info.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: The numidians/Moors could look like this:
The king could look like this:
Why would St. Isidore in the 6th century in Spain say the Mauri were "black as night" Mazigh. Do those people above look like black as night to you. Why would Martial the Roman repeat the phrase "woolly hair like a Moor". Why would Silius Italicus say Maure was a synonym for Niger. Is Nigra and Niger supposed to mean tan now. Most importantly why would the skeletons of ancient Mauri Carthaginians and people like the Tuareg be so different than modern populations along the coast whose ancestry is known to be partly European on the maternal side. Even wikipedia Kabyle and Berber site states that last point on. Did not ibn Butlan say that in his time the Sanhja, Ketama and Masmuda were black while Beja were golden. So when do you think this tanning occurred of white Berbers. And what is the name of a single Berber tribe that is fair skinned 500 years ago. i'm serious name just one.
Carthaginian skeletons and Moorish skeletons are different than those of Roman and fair-skinned North African populations. Garamante skeletons are those of Tuareg and Nilo-Saharans. Why would Greeks speak of "Ethiopians" occupying the coasts of North Africa and extending to the Atlas. Why can't they just look like their black Ethiopian looking and dancing descendants, Mazigh the Masmuda (or "black Africans" of Nusr Khosroes, the Sanhaja, Ketama, Zenata (i.e. the Tuareg and Nafusa). All Berbers were said to have come from these groups in Islamic times.
Why are the Mauri Mazikes or Amazigh called Ethiopians in Roman documents like the Expositio Totius Mundi?! Why does even Ibn Khaldun in the 14th c. as ibn Qutaybah and others before them claim they were descended from black Canaanites. Why does Leo Africanus say the Tuareg Aulimmeden/(Lamtuna)and other Tuareg tribe were descendants of the Numidians. When you can explain some of these inconsistencies maybe you will be right.
Everyobody knows there have been Europeans in Africa since the late Intermediate period as shown by Egyptian paintings, and that these people also came to mix with Africans. We know Scythians lived in Cyrenaica. We know also that far beyond the Moors some people who were probably Scythians or Vandals lived but nobody knew where they came from least of all the Moors. lol!
We know that Procopius names the Moorish rulers and that he uses teh phrase black for the Moors
They original Berbers or Moors obviously were not tanned Europeans or even tanned Middle Easterners Mazigh, sorry. If they don't look black than what you say is wack. lol!
Get over your fear of blacknes, Mazigh. There is no escape - no where to run - no where to hide. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Quote: White or half-bred Saharans on the coast. These were the people of Africa minor at the time of the first Phoenician sea voyages, and such they remained throughout antiquity.
Did you ACTUALLY read from your link?
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Juba 2
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