posted
The statues leave always a room for doubt, but this portrait of the mummy from "fayum" is much clearer, however it is from roman era, and I didn't see any one with black skin, did you find one?: Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I was under the impression that most of the Faiyum mummy portraits tend to reflect elite Greco-Roman officals. I seen a few individuals represented that would consist of Greco-Egypian mixtures. Contrary to certain posters on this board intermingling was common amongst the Greco-Roman soliders stationed around Egyptian provinces. Faiyum was one of the areas heavily populated by Greco-Roman reserve soliders.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
The Fayum mummy portraits were depictions of mixed race Egyptian-Greek individuals for the most part. Funny how most of them look like modern day Lower Egyptians.
"They usually depict a single person, showing the head, or head and upper chest, viewed frontally. In terms of artistic tradition, the images clearly derive more from Graeco-Roman traditions than Egyptian ones."
"It is estimated that as much as 30 percent of the population of Faiyum was Greek during the Ptolemaic period, with the rest being native Egyptians. By the Roman period, much of the "Greek" population of Faiyum was made-up of either Hellenized Egyptians or people of mixed Egyptian-Greek origins."
"According to Walker, the early Ptolemaic Greek colonists married local women and adopted Egyptian religious beliefs, and by Roman times, their descendants were viewed as Egyptians by the Roman rulers, despite their own self-perception of being Greek."
"The dental morphology of the Roman-period Faiyum mummies was also compared with that of earlier Egyptian populations, and was found to be "much more closely akin" to that of ancient Egyptians than to Greeks or other European populations. However, Kemp, from an inference of cranio-facial traits and limb proportions of numerous skeletal remains, postulated much immigration into the more northern parts of Egypt, indicative of the population "tending towards a greater similarity with European populations than had been the case earlier""
They really do, both the portraits and Lower Egyptians, look what you'd expect from a East African mulatto.
Faiyum's total population was 30% Greek during the Ptolematic era (400 years). With that population being eventually absorbed into the larger Egyptian population by the time of Roman rule... then how can anybody deny historic non-African admixture/gene-flow in Lower Egypt, especially when the Faiyum region/governorate isn't even in Lower Egypt, i.e. the Delta... but northern Upper Egypt.
And now we know that even places in northern Upper Egypt (Fayium) had Greek residents which were demographically 30% of the population. By Roman rule, they were completely mixed into the population. The delta had the largest community of Greeks, in some locales they may have been the majority, i.e. for example Alexandria. No one can deny the historic/recent nature of significant non-African admixture in Egypt. This 400 year Greco period was replaced by the Romans and eventually Islamic rule, i.e. everybody from the Arabs to the Turks. The earlier Persian (various periods (3 in total) prior to Greco-Roman rule), Assyrian (~50 years) and Libyan (~300 years) conquerers also likely left some form of impression... but not by that much.
Greco-Roman (roughly ~1100 years) and Islamic (~1300 years) rule is clearly the main source for the historic non-African admixture in Egypt. Then basically everybody else at a very low minimum. I doubt British rule led to any changes at all.
Posts: 129 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Either Mazigh is really foolish or really deceitful because one can simply due a google search and find a plethora of Faiyum portraits obviously showing "mulatto" type people. Of course these were just the Greco elite who mixed with the black natives as opposed to the predominant black natives.
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Deceitful for sure. Mazigh is typical of the kind of North Africans who are anti-black racist. Mazigh likes to pretend there are no colour issues but look he's always bringing up issues of colour and only negative things about blacks.
I prefer Arabized North Africans to Mazigh's kind.
Mazigh, in having examined many of these paintings simply chose not to see the dark complexioned ones.
This is similar to him purposely confusing face for countenance in his roorag on the blackening and whitening of faces.
What these portraits actually tell us is their Greek and Roman commissioners were not free of black admixture. They do not tell us "Egyptians were not black in Roman era" as Mazigh mistitled this thread.
Mazigh is just as anti-black as your typical Skadi, StormFront, or AllEmpires European white forum members.
Like them he brushes off all information about blacks that isn't negative, labelling such data as Afrocentric a term they use as a buzzword to equal black intellectual inferiority -- i.e., take any positive writings about blacks no matter what colour the author and no need to examine it's merits just calling it Afrocentric invalidates it as patently false just designed to make blacks feel good about never contributing anything to human culture unlike all other people.
He is however, unlike them, a coward. He tries to hide his racism behind a cloak of "I don't say this myself, I'm just presenting what's out there."
He is also unlike them in not being white. North African male lineages are majority E-PN2 derived just like the African blacks. Mazigh and his ilk seek to coverup this fact by only emphasizing the white component of North Africans incurred via slave trade in white women which literally did lighten their faces much more than historically they all ever were before the Islamic era.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Either Mazigh is really foolish or really deceitful
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Clearly showing how those upper classes able to afford such portraits in Egypt were primarily not Egyptian.
Posts: 8896 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
The portraits generally show personalities of Romano-Egyptian or Greco-Egyptian heritage.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by The Old Doctore: The dental morphology of the Roman-period Faiyum mummies was also compared with that of earlier Egyptian populations, and was found to be "much more closely akin" to that of ancient Egyptians than to Greeks or other European populations.
If this is referring to Irish 2006, I don't think he used any Europeans or other non-Egyptians in his study. He simply found the Fayum people to have some similarities in dental morphology to earlier Egyptians, which isn't surprising if we accept that the portraits represent admixed Egyptians (because even admixed people have some phenotypical similarities to their ancestors).
And I second Djehuti's observation that the Fayum portraits look mulatto. Notice how common curly hair is among them.
Posts: 7082 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Tell us something we don't know. LOL
That wasn't the intention. The intention was to reinforce what should be known. Apparently the thread author does not know this.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
It is always the same story, they mixed and bla bla... with who? greeks and romans? Were are those pure egyptians? Do you acknowledge that the greeks and romas are white?
For mazigh, i'm not white, but brun, and have no interest in color. So, forget me mazigh, unless you have nothing to prove without attacking me.
Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: It is always the same story, they mixed and bla bla... with who? greeks and romans? Were are those pure egyptians? Do you acknowledge that the greeks and romas are white?
For mazigh, i'm not white, but brun, and have no interest in color. So, forget me mazigh, unless you have nothing to prove without attacking me.
Damn you are a very silly boy, with a very short memory.
No mazigh, being "Brown" does NOT make you an Egyptian. In your case, being "Brown" means that you are a Turk/Egyptian Mulatto, which I refer to as Sand Niggers.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: The statues leave always a room for doubt, but this portrait of the mummy from "fayum" is much clearer, however it is from roman era, and I didn't see any one with black skin, did you find one?:
Romans are not black, Mazigh. They were very attractive people but not black.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: I was under the impression that most of the Faiyum mummy portraits tend to reflect elite Greco-Roman officals. I seen a few individuals represented that would consist of Greco-Egypian mixtures. Contrary to certain posters on this board intermingling was common amongst the Greco-Roman soliders stationed around Egyptian provinces. Faiyum was one of the areas heavily populated by Greco-Roman reserve soliders.
I think you are right Ausar it is obvious that the Greco-Romans who are depicted here are typical Mediterraneans although some may have mixed with the native Africans.
It shows that the far north of Egypt was already being pouplated by Euromediterranean people in that time.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: It is always the same story, they mixed and bla bla... with who? greeks and romans? Were are those pure egyptians? Do you acknowledge that the greeks and romas are white?
For mazigh, i'm not white, but brun, and have no interest in color. So, forget me mazigh, unless you have nothing to prove without attacking me.
First of all why should pure Eygptians be where Greco- Romans had settled as evidenced by archeological findings.
Second of all what does "brun" mean Mazigh? Just curious.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
^I have sources confirming this. I will look for the thread with the original topic.
...........
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: Susan Walker states specifically that the people of the Fayum at that time concerned with these portraits identified themselves as Greeks.
Also:
quote:these portraits were popular among nineteenth and early twentieth century collectors and this had a tendency to at first isolate them from their funerary contexts. They were studied by classicists and art historians who, basing their conclusions on details in the paintings along, such as hairstyles, jewelry and costume, identified the portraits as being those of Greek or Roman settlers who had adopted Egyptian burial customs.
quote:The Fayum, a flourishing metropolitan community in ancient Egypt, consisted of Greeks, Egyptians, Syrians, Libyans, and others. A significant Greek population had settled in Egypt following its conquest by Alexander, eventually adopting the customs of the Egyptians. This included mummifying their dead. A portrait of the deceased, painted either in the prime of life or after death, was placed over the person's mummy as a memorial.
quote:The ekphora is a Greek rite, and in many respects the portraits reflect an interest in Greek culture. In the Fayum it is likely that the portraits represent members of a group of mercenaries who had fought for Alexander and the early Ptolemies and were granted land after the Fayum had been drained for agricultural use in the early years of ptolemic rule.
Ancient Faces: Mummy Portraits from Roman Egypt By Susan Walker, PP24..
quote:The mummy, or Fayum, portraits are Egyptian only in that they are associated with essentially Egyptian burial customs. Painted in an encaustic technique, they represent mostly Greek inhabitants of Egypt.
posted
Has any one a portrait of a black egyptian? from Fayum or bahariya? or they were all intermingled???
Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
^See above. The portraits represent intermingled Greeks and Greco-Romans not intermingled Egyptians. Thus, if not intermingled logic would dictate that you'd see a White Greek before you'd see a Black Egyptian, neither of which are evident in the Fayum portraits (though I do recall one man who seemed slanted more so towards the Black Egyptian side, but that's just eyeballing).
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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