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Mike111
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There are many current threads discussing Berbers and Moors. Thought precise determinations can not be made, because they left no written history, and little in the way of life-like artifacts. It may still be possible to assemble a reasonable history from the written histories of those who conquered them. That is, by way of inference and attention to circumstance.

Link: THE HISTORY OF NORTH AFRICA

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the lioness,
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There were two types of people in Tassili N'Ajjer,
southeast Algeria, dark skinned and light skinned

dark skinned

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light skinned
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the lighter skinned people are shown riding animals and wearing a robe type garment.

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Mike111
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He,he, Lioness, every time that I think that you, and Whites in general, cannot get any more degenerate - you DO!

Really dear, a phony drawing from a French UFO site. This has to be a new low, for even you.


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Have fun everybody, see what other marvels Lionesses French friends have.

Lioness UFO link

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alTakruri
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Actually the females on oxen has been published in
books since the 1960's. Recently I've come to doubt
its authenticity with others executed in similar style
after members of Lhote's team admitted to fabricating
Tassili rock art. This has dismayed authors like Hachid
who relied on them as a basis for white Saharans at
an early sequential era.

Tourists have snapped many Tassili rock art pieces.
When there are no in situ photos of a Mission Henri
Lhote facsimile reproduction what is one to conclude?

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anguishofbeing
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
North Africa = mixed; Southern Europe = white

[Roll Eyes]
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Mike111
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A valuable observation alTakruri.

Apparently Henri Lhote is the Winifred Brunton of western north Africa.

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Brada-Anansi
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 -
This is one of the certified fakes by members of Lahote's team Mike

according to recent published studies [(the reader can refer to Jeremy Keenan's most recent work for further details)], Henri Lhote's team, or one member of his team, apparently faked two (or even more) of the images published in his book, like those Egyptian-like calendar goddesses, which continued to appear in his book right down to the 70s. The following composition, which I have redrawn by hand (colours are not real) to illustrate the Egyptian style, shows some of the images vividly, or vandalisingly, invented by Lhote's team:


"Our little goddesses with the birds' heads must belong to an historical period . . . to 1200 B.C. We know that at this time the Libyans of the Fezzan were constantly at war with the Egyptians. Indeed, the Libyans attempted to conquer the Nile Valley" (Henri Lhote, Frescoes, 1959, pp 69 - 72).

It remains a puzzle, however, to realise which Fezzan-Egyptian wars [professor] Lhote was openly referring to. There are no such wars in recorded history, let alone "constant wars", that involved the inhabitants of Fezzan and the ancient Egyptians. If he meant to refer to the Temehu, Tehenu, Meshwash and the Libu tribes who successfully managed to regain control over conquered Egypt during the 22nd Dynasty then these tribes were the inhabitants of Eastern Libya or Cyrenaica and not Fezzan. Why for heaven's sake invent pictures and then publish them as real prehistoric cave paintings and supplant them with fake history as if Libyans, and the whole of humanity for that matter, were unable to distinguish between the Amerind-Zulu wars and the Spartans' invasions of Troy or between jack-hammers and sish-kebabs?
http://www.temehu.com/vandalised-rockart.htm

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Mike111
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Brada-Anansi - Have you watched TV lately?
White media is full of fabricated history and fake artifacts. So-called educational TV is an absolute joke. Just a few days ago, I was watching a program on the Hittites (a fictitious people!!!!).

The surprise is not that Lahote did it, the surprise is that he was exposed by White people.

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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Actually the females on oxen has been published in
books since the 1960's. Recently I've come to doubt
its authenticity with others executed in similar style
after members of Lhote's team admitted to fabricating
Tassili rock art. This has dismayed authors like Hachid
who relied on them as a basis for white Saharans at
an early sequential era.

Tourists have snapped many Tassili rock art pieces.
When there are no in situ photos of a Mission Henri
Lhote facsimile reproduction what is one to conclude?

Indeed. Glad you bring this out- dint know about these fakes.

Assorted claimants say native peoples were overrun
by incoming Caucasoid Mediterraneans who brought
horses and chariots with them, and that around
the end of the second millenium, the Saharan rock
art changed from largely pastoral scenes to show
the coming of invaders. However, skeletal analyses
indicate the presence of Upper Egyptians, not
would be "Mediterranean" or "Near Eastern" hordes:

QUOTE: "elongated white men with characteristic
long hair and pointed beards. Some confirmation of
this racial shift comes from physical
anthropology, although the skeletons seem to show
closer resemblance to groups from the upper Nile
Valley than to contemporary material from the
Maghreb."


--"The Berbers" Michael Brett, Elizabeth Fentress, Wiley-Blackwell: 1997
 -

------------------------------------------------------------------------


What Takur says is amply confirmed by other
anthropologists, who have documented the fabrications.

[quotes:]

According to English anthropologist, Jeremy Keenan (2004) for example:

"It has long been suspected that Lhote's team was responsible for making a number of 'fakes.' This was confirmed publicly in 1998 when Malika Hachid, former Director of the Tassili Park, published the fact that 'unknown to Henri Lhote the people who worked with him made a number of "fakes." These people were not 'native labourers' playing jokes or bearing grudges, but members of Lhote''s own team of French Professionals."


According to Keenan, Lhote himself acknowledged that there were irregularities in his collection,
writing that:

"..several people who saw our copies made reserves [sic trans. 'presumably 'had reservations] about some of the figures whose style seemed so modern that the authenticity of the copies aroused doubts.."

Keenan goes on to say:
"The two most serious questions raised by this revelation are: how many other paintings are fakes? ANd, did Lhote know that his team were making fakes? The answers to both questions are uncertain.. The first published confirmation of the faking of the paintings by Lhote's expedition were made some five yeras after the espedition's return.. [ by Jean-Dominique Lajoux, the p[photographer who accompanied Lhote's expedition].. Alfed Muzzolini, who has undertaken a major study of Saharan rock art, suggested that at least four paintings (including Egyptian goddesses) were fakes.. At a recent meeting, Makika Hachid confirmed to me that the lainting Lhote has called Antinea is also a fake that that the source of information was the faker himself. WHen I asked her whey she had not published this revelation, she replied hat the faker only made his confession to her (throigh an intermediary) when he saw the book.."

From: --The Lesser Gods of the Sahara: Social Change and Contested Terrain Indigenous Rights (Cass Series: History and Society in the Islamic World) by Jeremy Keenan (Routledge: 2004) pg 206

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Since intentional fraud was revealed on the part of
some members of Lhote's team I've become leary of
meticulously executed "Saharan rock art" that has
not been verified by photo. This piece and a few
others like it are among the questionable. Not
saying they're fakes just asking (after Mike111)
where're the photos supporting their authenticity?


 -
The Tassili Ladies

quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Though there's evidence for European (north Mediterranean)
immigrants to littoral N Africa in prehistoric times none exists
for such a presense in the Sahara.

As for skin colours in the frescoes, that's debateable.
I'm not one who thinks only the dark skin tones reflect
natural skin colour while all the light skin tones are
symbolic or faded or whatever.

By the time light skinned people with attributes similar
to the Tjemehu show up in the frescoes I think their
skin tone relects reality.

The light skin tones I mean are those like cardboard
or manilla or lighter shades of cafe au lait. The rose
and snow complexion is totally out of the question for
the Sahara, would die out in a few generations.


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Whatbox
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For once i gotta bite on you on this one:

Are these supposed to be evidence of contradictory remarks or provide insight?

I'm curious what alTakruri meant by:

By the time light skinned people with attributes similar
to the Tjemehu show up in the frescoes I think their
skin tone relects reality.


The creamy colored Tamehou were depicted by ancient Kemetians later on in Kemetian history.

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Whatbox
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Scholars believe at Tassili Rock Art Proto Fulani cultural traits are evident

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/fula_2/hd_fula_2.htm

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 -

 -

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 -

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This kid looks just like a few people i knew over here (well, one of 'em, know of):

http://www.sim.org/slideshow/img/pic-85.jpg

--------------------
http://iheartguts.com/shop/bmz_cache/7/72e040818e71f04c59d362025adcc5cc.image.300x261.jpg http://www.nastynets.net/www.mousesafari.com/lohan-facial.gif

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique What Takur says is amply confirmed by other
anthropologists, who have documented the fabrications.
[quotes:]

According to English anthropologist, Jeremy Keenan (2004) for example:

"It has long been suspected that Lhote's team was responsible for making a number of 'fakes.' This was confirmed publicly in 1998 when Malika Hachid, former Director of the Tassili Park, published the fact that 'unknown to Henri Lhote the people who worked with him made a number of "fakes." These people were not 'native labourers' playing jokes or bearing grudges, but members of Lhote''s own team of French Professionals."

According to Keenan, Lhote himself acknowledged that there were irregularities in his collection,
writing that:

"..several people who saw our copies made reserves [sic trans. 'presumably 'had reservations] about some of the figures whose style seemed so modern that the authenticity of the copies aroused doubts.."

Keenan goes on to say:
"The two most serious questions raised by this revelation are: how many other paintings are fakes? ANd, did Lhote know that his team were making fakes? The answers to both questions are uncertain.. The first published confirmation of the faking of the paintings by Lhote's expedition were made some five yeras after the espedition's return.. [ by Jean-Dominique Lajoux, the p[photographer who accompanied Lhote's expedition].. Alfed Muzzolini, who has undertaken a major study of Saharan rock art, suggested that at least four paintings (including Egyptian goddesses) were fakes.. At a recent meeting, Makika Hachid confirmed to me that the lainting Lhote has called Antinea is also a fake that that the source of information was the faker himself. WHen I asked her whey she had not published this revelation, she replied hat the faker only made his confession to her (throigh an intermediary) when he saw the book.."

From: --The Lesser Gods of the Sahara: Social Change and Contested Terrain Indigenous Rights (Cass Series: History and Society in the Islamic World) by Jeremy Keenan (Routledge: 2004) pg 206

It's funny how you are using to separate arguments here. Above fakes are discussed.
What are the specific pieces that are said to be fake?
Below a separate argument is made that a "racial shift" that is observed is not due to fakes but due to misinterpretation that what are viewed as Eurasians are really upper Egyptians:


quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique

 -
Assorted claimants say native peoples were overrun
by incoming Caucasoid Mediterraneans who brought
horses and chariots with them, and that around
the end of the second millenium, the Saharan rock
art changed from largely pastoral scenes to show
the coming of invaders. However, skeletal analyses
indicate the presence of Upper Egyptians, not
would be "Mediterranean" or "Near Eastern" hordes:

QUOTE: "elongated white men with characteristic
long hair and pointed beards. Some confirmation of
this racial shift comes from physical
anthropology, although the skeletons seem to show
closer resemblance to groups from the upper Nile
Valley than to contemporary material from the
Maghreb."

--"The Berbers" Michael Brett, Elizabeth Fentress, Wiley-Blackwell: 1997

quote:
Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
 -
This is one of the certified fakes by members of Lahote's team Mike

according to recent published studies [(the reader can refer to Jeremy Keenan's most recent work for further details)], Henri Lhote's team, or one member of his team, apparently faked two (or even more) of the images published in his book, like those Egyptian-like calendar goddesses, which continued to appear in his book right down to the 70s. The following composition, which I have redrawn by hand (colours are not real) to illustrate the Egyptian style, shows some of the images vividly, or vandalisingly, invented by Lhote's team:


"Our little goddesses with the birds' heads must belong to an historical period . . . to 1200 B.C. We know that at this time the Libyans of the Fezzan were constantly at war with the Egyptians. Indeed, the Libyans attempted to conquer the Nile Valley" (Henri Lhote, Frescoes, 1959, pp 69 - 72).

^^^this fake does not look like the same style as the Tassili ladies.

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Though there's evidence for European (north Mediterranean)
immigrants to littoral N Africa in prehistoric times none exists
for such a presence in the Sahara.


A European presence in coastal Algeria (littoral)
versus a European presence in Tassili, Southern Algeria are both in Algeria.

Nevertheless despite this rock art there are light skinned Berbers in North Africa. Are they indigenous? If not when did they get there?
If Europeans came into coastal Algeria were there any people even living there before they came?


VIDEO

TASSILI rock art

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcQCRBnnuuM

(excuse ridiculous psycho music)

Lhote publicized the hypothesis that the humanoid drawings represented space aliens. In The Search for the Tassili Frescoes: The story of the prehistoric rock-paintings of the Sahara (first published in France in 1958 and in London in 1959), Lhote called one particularly large and "curious figure"as "Jabbaren" and described him as the "great Martian god.

The video tries to suggest this silly claim also.
It doesn't seem like aliens should be regarded as white people.


VIDEO:

Berbers - Algeria

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWKkQWh9lNg&NR=1&feature=fvwp


^^^watching this now, looks like a good documentary

"Algeria is not an Arabic country" - from the documentary

 -

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Mike111
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I think the link at the start of this thread resolves this issue.

VIDEO:

Berbers - Algeria

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWKkQWh9lNg&NR=1&feature=fvwp

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kenndo
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Arabized Berber is a term used to denote an inhabitant of the North African Maghreb of Berber origin whose native language is a dialect of Arabic.

The notion of "Arabized Berbers" is held primarily by Berberists, many scholars, and most recently also by geneticists based on results of some genetic research[citation needed]. They maintain that North Africa, including Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, and Libya, is mainly Berber from a sociological, historical and more importantly, genealogical standpoint, despite the widespread language shift from Berber to Arabic and an accompanying shift from a Berber ethnic identity to an Arab ethnic identity.

Medieval Arabic sources frequently refer to North Africa (excluding Egypt) as Bilad Al Barbar or 'Land of the Berbers' (Arabic: بلاد البربر). This designation may have given rise to the term Barbary Coast which was used by Europeans until the 19th century to refer to coastal Northwest Africa. The Arabic term Maghreb is also widely used locally, while Berber activists often reference the area as Tamazgha.


The notion that Arabs were slow to colonize non-Arab lands is attested by the low number of cities they founded. Unlike most of the great conquering nations, the Arabs did not have an urban tradition and did not feel at home in an urban environment. None of the Moroccan cities have been built by the Arab rulers, with most of them having been built and settled by Berbers, either before or after the arrival of Islam. Even though many of these cities have often been linguistically Arabized, from a historic point of view it is accepted that the core population is Berber. More than rural areas, the cities were a melting pot of different ethnicities, so that the city dwellers are more likeliy to have non-Berber blood (Black African, Punic, European, Arab).

By tracing the history of certain Maghrebian areas, historians are able to make assertions about its inhabitants. For instance, even though Casablanca (Anfa) and Rabat were both built and originally settled by Berbers, we know that the area's original inhabitants were ousted by the Almohads and subsequently resettled with nomadic Banu Hilal Arabs. Other, traditionally Berber, cities like Tangiers, Tetouan (Tittawin), Meknes and Marrakesh have never had such a drastic repopulation, so that we can assume that its inhabitants today are of Berber stock. It should be noted that although these cities have for centuries now been linguistically Arabized, their culture and identity often have not been through that process. The cities of Tangiers, Tetouan, Meknes and Marrakesh still have a strong Berber aspect to them and their inhabitants do not necessarily consider themselves to be ethnically Arab, even though their language might be today's Moroccan-Arabic.


Berberists and linguistic Arabization
According to many Berber nationalists, even though a North Africa inhabitant may only speak Maghrebi Arabic as opposed to the Berber language, this person remains essentially a Berber, because he or she belongs historically and geographically (and not necessarily, racially) to the "land of the Berbers".

It is a response from Berber activists to Algerians, Moroccans, Tunisians and Libyans who self-identify as "Arab" just because of their Arabic tongue. North Africa was gradually Arabized by Islam with its liturgical language: Arabic, which was the remnant of the Arab conquerors from the 7th century AD, but the identity of western North Africa remained Berber for a long time thereafter. Additionally, even though the process of Arabization began with these early invasions, many large parts of North Africa were only recently Arabized like the Aurès (Awras) mountains in the 19th and 20th centuries. Alhough, the fertile plains of North Africa seem to have been (at least partly) Arabized in the 11th century with the emigration of the Banu Hilal tribes from Arabia. The mass education and promotion of Arabic language and culture through schools and mass media, during the 20th century, by the Arabist governments of North Africa, is regarded as the strongest Arabization process in North Africa ever.

DNA evidence
Various genetic studies along with historians such as Gabriel Camps and Charles-André Julien lend support to the idea that the bulk of modern Northwest Africans irrespective of language are descended from Berbers.. A modern study however shows a genetic difference between "Berbers" (defined as the Berber speaking population) and "Arabs" (defined as the Arabic speaking population in North Africa), these latter subjects "probably correspond to a heterogeneous group representing various ethnicities". However, this study does show that North African Arabic-speakers are genetically much closer to Berber-speakers than they are to Middle-Eastern (i.e. Asian) Arabs, this is obviously the result of North Africa's base population being essentially made of ethnic Berbers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabized_Berber

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the lioness,
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 -
___^^^^^^


Egyptian Faience Court Scene with Foreigners from the Palace of Ramses III

1700 + years before Muhammad

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the lioness,
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Berber compared to Khosian

Berber:

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Khosian

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Mike111
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Lioness, if you are going to do it, do it right!!!


Berber

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San

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Turk Quadroon


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the lioness,
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 -

Mike this predates Ottoamn presence in Africa by about 2,700 years

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Mike111
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^It's also fake, just like you.
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