quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Ignoring the castrated one above...
quote:Originally posted by Dahoslips 101: Concerning the original Berbers...
The rest are hardly represented by your cherrypicked sample, which in most cases probably demonstrates the result of relatively recent admixture with sub-saharans. Clearly Caucasian Berbers are found in the High Atlas Mountains of Morocco, who are quite far to the south as well as from the coast. Caucasian Tuaregs are found ranging as close to central Africa as Mali!
Are you daft??! I'm beginning to think you are! Most of your so-called "caucasian" Berbers are people who look what would be called 'Mulattoes' and only a few groups display true 'whiteness' with blonde or red hair. The rest who live away from the coasts are all black. You speak of "recent sub-saharan" admixture, yet you never bothered with my response which states the Sahara did not even exist during the Holocene or that most of these lineages date to that time period! While it is the Euasian lineages that are recent!!
Are you aware that the predominant Y lineage among Berbers is E1b1b which is said to have entered North Africa during the mesolithic from Sub-Sahara? Even among some Berber like the Tuareg there exists older PN2 lineages like E2. What do you call this??
Are you aware that the oldest remains of North Africans like the so-called Mechta and Afalou types all possess "negroid" affinities?
And then you have this depiction by Romans of non-Phoenician indigenous peoples of Carthage (Tunisia).
...
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
"We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations."
"The Berber tribes were far removed from each other and this was one reason why Morocco was often invaded".....
Traveling spirit masters: Moroccan Gnawa trance and music in the global marketplace.
By Deborah Anne Kapchan
Wesleyan University Press, 2007, page 19.
"not all of the black african population are gnawa."
Frigi et al.
Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra- Saharan Africa.
So all this begs the question, which group is truly indigenous to Africa and which are more recent? Black people or whites??
It is an easy and simple answer to those with well functioning brains barred the castrated minds.
I'd say, the Berber gene E-M81 is a descendant from the Northeast African parent clade E-M78, E-M78 is a descendant from the East African parent clade E-M35.
*Many East Africans have so-called caucasian features.
As was stated prior by the sources, Northwestern Berbers carry admixture due to many invasions. Whereas the Berbers from the Siwa carry the least admixture. Which on its turn show a supra- Saharan evolution.
A history of the Maghrib in the Islamic period
By Jamil M. Abun-Nasr
Cambridge University Press, 1987 - page 5.
..."it is important to bear in mind that over the centuries the Maghreb has been a melting-pot of many other ethnic groups and cultures"
"Frigi et al.(2010) suggest these possibilities as factors in their consideration of the asymmetric assimilation of females of non-African origin into Berber-speaking populations whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Quote; whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker."
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
To claim Berbers as europeans/ whites is just another crazy claim.
LOL. Now I know for sure you live/have lived in holland. Which is what I wanted to ask you, during our mail conversations, but your mailbox was full. Is it Empty now?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
Whether Kabyle came from North Europe or have relative high dosage of North European add-mixture. Is open for debate. Fact is, however. Vandals came from Germany, linked to North Europeans from where they do originate. The genepool is evidence of this.
Ancient History Sourcebook: Procopius of Caesarea: Gaiseric & The Vandal Conquest of North Africa, 406 - 477 CE
"And yet the number of the Vandals and Alans was said in former times, at least, to amount to no more than fifty thousand men. However, after that time by their natural increase among themselves and by associating other barbarians with them they came to be an exceedingly numerous people."
From: Procopius, History of the Wars, 7 vols., trans. H. B. Dewing (Cambridge, Mass., and London: Harvard University Press & Wm. Heinemann, 1914; reprint ed., 1953-54), II.23-73.
Scanned by: J. S. Arkenberg, Dept. of History, Cal. State Fullerton. Prof. Arkenberg has modernized the text. In 406 the Vandals advanced from Pannonia by way of Gaul, which they devastated terribly, into Spain, where they settled in 411. From 427 their king was Genseric (Gaiseric), who in 429 landed in North Africa with about 80,000 of his followers.
In this study we attempted to better elucidate the ancient African genetic background in the northwest African area, particularly in Tunisia. To this aim, we focused our study on Berber populations that are considered representative of the ancient North African populations that probably derived from Neolithic Capsians.
During historic times, Berbers experienced a long and complicated history with many invasions, conquests, and migrations by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, Arabs, Bedouins, Spanish, Turks, Andalusians, sub-Saharans (communities settled in Jerba and Gabes in the 16th–19th centuries), and French (Brett and Fentress 1996). During these invasions, Berbers were forced back to the mountains and to certain villages in southern Tunisia (Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004).
At present, they are restricted to some isolates in the south who maintain the Berber language and to some populations in the north who lack an origin language.
Many genetic studies on Tunisian Berber populations demonstrate the heterogeneity of Berbers with respect to European and sub-Saharan African contributions and the mosaic structure of Tunisian Berber populations with an absence of ethnic, linguistic, and geographic effects (Cherni et al. 2010).
Pottery
I have been working for a long time and published several articles on Roman pottery in Rome, Italy and North Africa. I have a good knowledge of all the classes of pottery that circulated in the Mediterranean from the Republican period to the 7th/8th century AD and beyond.
The period in question from AD 300 to AD 700, spans more that political transitions: it sees the adoption of Christianity (during the Las Imperial period and the Byzantine times), the Vandal rule and the adoption of Arianism and the Arab/Muslim imposition.
So in conclusion , to suggest that the Vandals didn't reach the Atlas mountains of Morocco and considering this as impossible or as plausible is highly impeccable. Considering the fact that these groups moved into the mountains to remain secure, this is very well known, at the time of the Arab conquest. It was only 130 years later that the Arabs came in. The Vandals came in the 6th century the Arabs in the 7th. The root of these Germanic Vandal people is eventually at North Europe. There is where they can be traced back to. It also shows how the regions was already destabilized. This also explains the already indigenous Moroccan dark brown complected vs the enslaved Africans from the south into Morocco. Actually facilitated by the Byzantines, Vandal types.
Claiming there is was no trace of them any longer only after 130 years, is simply ridiculous. Knowing that they moved in 80.000 strong. Whiles have stayed there for 3 centuries, until the Arabs came in. Did they all disappear, all of a sudden???
*Also, one should take inconsideration the many converts to Islam by groups such as the Iberians, likely the descendants of the Vandals and others who came into North Africa over time remain there till this day.
Thus I propose; before the invasion by Islam as Moors, into South Europe, we should understand that North Africa was already invaded many times by groups from Europe, shifting the populations demographic and ethnographic physical appearance. Autosomal is evident of the many admixtures within several Berber tribes. Recorded history backs this up. So indeed the admixture makes it very complicated. Saying one berber is fake and the other is not is a bit off the radar. However, they are indigenous to Africa.
* The Northern part of the Atlas area is close to the Mediterranean sea, before one enters the rest of Morocco one needs to enter there first, known as the RIF. Everyone knowledgeable of history knows that the Vandals entered there. There is no discussion about that.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Ignoring the castrated one above...
quote:Originally posted by Dahoslips 101: Concerning the original Berbers...
The rest are hardly represented by your cherrypicked sample, which in most cases probably demonstrates the result of relatively recent admixture with sub-saharans. Clearly Caucasian Berbers are found in the High Atlas Mountains of Morocco, who are quite far to the south as well as from the coast. Caucasian Tuaregs are found ranging as close to central Africa as Mali!
Are you daft??! I'm beginning to think you are! Most of your so-called "caucasian" Berbers are people who look what would be called 'Mulattoes' and only a few groups display true 'whiteness' with blonde or red hair. The rest who live away from the coasts are all black. You speak of "recent sub-saharan" admixture, yet you never bothered with my response which states the Sahara did not even exist during the Holocene or that most of these lineages date to that time period! While it is the Euasian lineages that are recent!!
Are you aware that the predominant Y lineage among Berbers is E1b1b which is said to have entered North Africa during the mesolithic from Sub-Sahara? Even among some Berber like the Tuareg there exists older PN2 lineages like E2. What do you call this??
Are you aware that the oldest remains of North Africans like the so-called Mechta and Afalou types all possess "negroid" affinities?
And then you have this depiction by Romans of non-Phoenician indigenous peoples of Carthage (Tunisia).
...
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
"We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations."
"The Berber tribes were far removed from each other and this was one reason why Morocco was often invaded".....
Traveling spirit masters: Moroccan Gnawa trance and music in the global marketplace.
By Deborah Anne Kapchan
Wesleyan University Press, 2007, page 19.
"not all of the black african population are gnawa."
Frigi et al.
Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra- Saharan Africa.
So all this begs the question, which group is truly indigenous to Africa and which are more recent? Black people or whites??
It is an easy and simple answer to those with well functioning brains barred the castrated minds.
I'd say, the Berber gene E-M81 is a descendant from the Northeast African parent clade E-M78, E-M78 is a descendant from the East African parent clade E-M35.
*Many East Africans have so-called caucasian features.
As was stated prior by the sources, Northwestern Berbers carry admixture due to many invasions. Whereas the Berbers from the Siwa carry the least admixture. Which on its turn show a supra- Saharan evolution.
A history of the Maghrib in the Islamic period
By Jamil M. Abun-Nasr
Cambridge University Press, 1987 - page 5.
..."it is important to bear in mind that over the centuries the Maghreb has been a melting-pot of many other ethnic groups and cultures"
"Frigi et al.(2010) suggest these possibilities as factors in their consideration of the asymmetric assimilation of females of non-African origin into Berber-speaking populations whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Quote; whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker."
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
To claim Berbers as europeans/ whites is just another crazy claim.
LOL. Now I know for sure you live/have lived in holland. Which is what I wanted to ask you, during our mail conversations, but your mailbox was full. Is it Empty now?
I will empty my mail box, just a bit.
I remember this bi-racial African American girl at the Comedy factory. How she stated; that she was surprised to see so many bi-racials in this city. I know she was referring to Moroccans. Who else? lol Little did she know these were Moroccans.
Recently a bi-racial boy named Xavier with self identity crises at the a Prem show, complained about being called and looked at as Moroccan.
And I have experienced many cases were Aruban people were mistaken for Morrocans, even by Morrocans themselves. The stories are endless.......
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
The ancient greeks described the Libyans or native north africans as white skinned and blonde or red haired. Note that these writings predate the Vandal settlement of North Africa. So the afrocentrics have a crisis, they can't explain the blonde berbers by an invasion. On the contrary, the indigenous Berbers were white and blonde as the ancient literature proves.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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Whether Kabyle came from North Europe or have relative high dosage of North European add-mixture. Is open for debate. Fact is, however. Vandals came from Germany, linked to North Europeans from where they do originate. The genepool is evidence of this.
The Vandals settled in Tunisia. They were mostly wiped out. But I have read that some did marry in with the native population. But this is in specific areas. The Vandals didn't spend a great deal of time in other parts of North Africa to leave a significant imprint except in Tunisia, in the area around Carthage.
-------------------- In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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posted
Here is yet another study which holds that European mtdna in North Africa is mostly prehistoric. This one focuses on Libya.
"Africa and shows an opposite frequency gradient respect to M1, being U6 significantly more frequent in the West, whereas M1 is more frequent in the East. Interestingly, these haplogroups display similar frequencies in the Libyan mtDNA pool (4.1% for U6 and 3.3% for M1). Eurasian haplogroups HV0, H1, and K are the most frequent in Libyans (7.4, 6.3, and 5.2%, respectively). To trace back the geographical origin of the H lineages in Libya, we dissected haplogroup H in several subclades(see Materials and Methods). Compared with previous published data (Ennafaa et al., 2009), Libyan individuals exhibit an admixture of western and eastern H subclades(Table 2). As in North West African populations,H1 and H3 are the most frequent subclades, and account for 48% of the H lineages. However, these frequencies are lower than those found in Maghreb populations because of the relative high proportion of H5, H7, and H13 subgroups in Libya, which are more frequent in the Near East (Roostalu et al., 2006). The age estimation of haplogroup H1 based on the HVSI region in Europe is 16.0 kya (Pereira et al., 2005), 11.7 kya in Tunisia (Cherni et al., 2009), and between 4.4 and 11.5 kya in Libyan Tuaregs (Ottoni et al., 2010). When H1 Libyan sequences are taken into account, coalescence age estimates in Libya (14.7 6 4.4 kya) are compatible with those found in Tunisia and in Tuareg. The haplogroup H1 network can be found in Supporting Information Figure 1." http://bhusers.upf.edu/dcomas/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Fadhlaoui-Zid_inpress1.pdf
-------------------- In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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Whether Kabyle came from North Europe or have relative high dosage of North European add-mixture. Is open for debate. Fact is, however. Vandals came from Germany, linked to North Europeans from where they do originate. The genepool is evidence of this.
The Vandals settled in Tunisia. They were mostly wiped out. But I have read that some did marry in with the native population. But this is in specific areas. The Vandals didn't spend a great deal of time in other parts of North Africa to leave a significant imprint except in Tunisia, in the area around Carthage.
My point is not that they eventual settled in Tunisia. But that they moved into North Africa via the Rif area. And that there genepool is still precent. As well as that of other groups who've invaded that part of Africa and settled there. This also goes for enslaved Saqaliba and Mamluks. As recored history confirms and can be found in the mt-DNA autosomal of Northwestern Berber tribes.
Unfortunately genetic studies never mention any of this, the reason is, I think. Because of a superiority feeling. They rather ignore than admit this part of European history.
Ancient Greek settlements at North Africa were very local and small.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lyinass: to say that the Tassili Ladies are not wearing hats or headgear of some sort, to say that these are Fulani hairstyles is complete speculation on Mr. Djehuti's part. In my opinion it's wrong.
There is no expert on Algerian rock art who has said the Tassili Ladies have a Fulani hairstyle or even that their hair is what is represented by those shapes. It's wrong they are headgear not hats and their color matches colors on their capes. How many times have I told you check what Djehuti says, he makes up stuff.
Hey, idiot! When Basil Davidson said the hairstyles were surprisingly modern he DID make a reference to Fulani!! Why?? Because not only do the hairstyles resemble those of modern Fulani as there is no indication that this was somehow "hats" or headdresses. But the vast majority of rock paintings in Tasili show scenes and rituals practiced by the Fulani today!! Most scholars from Basil Davidson, to Graham Connah, to Marq de Villiers all agree that these rock paintings were made by and depict the ancestors of modern Fulani!!
As usual the only one speculating is YOU and it is pigsh|t. All that Lyingass productions is worth. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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The Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax (4th century BC) described fair haired Libyans (Geograohi Graeci Minores, Vol. 1, p. 88, Col. B).
The poet Callimachus in the 3rd century BC described blonde haired Libyan women (Hymn II to Apollo, 85).
The Roman author Lucan (61 AD) wrote of auburn haired, white skinned Libyans (Pharsalia, 10. 155).
Procopius wrote of a native North African tribe who were ''white in body and fair haired'' (History of the Wars, xiii. 26-29).
Pausanias also recorded Berber deities with blue eyes (1. 14. 6).
Antaeus the Libyan giant who Herakles slew, is depicted on Greek pottery as pale skinned and red-golden haired.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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Whether Kabyle came from North Europe or have relative high dosage of North European add-mixture. Is open for debate. Fact is, however. Vandals came from Germany, linked to North Europeans from where they do originate. The genepool is evidence of this.
The Vandals settled in Tunisia. They were mostly wiped out. But I have read that some did marry in with the native population. But this is in specific areas. The Vandals didn't spend a great deal of time in other parts of North Africa to leave a significant imprint except in Tunisia, in the area around Carthage.
My point is not that they eventual settled in Tunisia. But that they moved into North Africa via the Rif area. And that there genepool is still precent. As well as that of other groups who've invaded that part of Africa and settled there. This also goes for enslaved Saqaliba and Mamluks. As recored history confirms and can be found in the mt-DNA autosomal of Northwestern Berber tribes.
Unfortunately genetic studies never mention any of this, the reason is, I think. Because of a superiority feeling. They rather ignore than admit this part of European history.
Ancient Greek settlements at North Africa were very local and small.
Sorry for the typos in the previous post, I just woke up. Typing from the Ipad.
The name "Atlanteans" was also given by the Greeks to the Phoenician colonies along the Barbary Coast of North Africa (i.e. around Mount Atlas). Diodorus Siculus describes their Titan-mythology and wars with the Libyan Amazones. Plato may have the same nation in mind, since he names the second Atlantian king Gadeiros after a famous Phoenician colony near the Straits of Gibraltar.
Other realms proposed by philosophers and writers which resemble Atlantis include the fabulous southern Island of Pankhaia (or Panchaea) and the blessed Heliad Isles.
*Diodorus Siculus, Library of History 3. 10. 11 : "[Diodorus briefly discusses sources for the ancient Greek histories of Egypt, sub-Saharan Africa, Libya and the Atlas region--the last three are all referred to as Aithiopia (Ethiopia)
Ethiopia is mentioned several times in The Iliad, The Odyssey and the Histories; The primary city of Ethiopia was Meroe which was, according to the historian, Herodotus, forty days on foot and twelve days by boat south of the city of Elephantine on the Nile River; in another part of his narrative, Herodotus says that the Ethiopians lived in Libya towards the southern sea.
The exact location of Ethiopia was, at best, nebulous to the Greeks of Herodotus’ time; there seems to have been two conceptions of Ethiopia: one was the historical land coveted by the Persian Empire and the other was a mythical Ethiopia that Poseidon (lord of the Sea) favored with personal visits.
Homer says that the Ethiopians were the most distant of men and lived in two separate lands that were identified as where the Titan, Hyperion, rose and sat; when the Greek hero, Menelaos (Menelaus), was making his meandering way back to Sparta after the sack of the city of Troy, he said that he traveled to Egypt, Ethiopia and Libya which only implies that Ethiopia was somewhere in Africa.
Dionysus, the god of wine, was born on Mount Nysa which, according to Herodotus, was in Ethiopia.
Histories, book 2, chapters 29 and 146; book 3 chapter 17 Odyssey, book 1, lines 22-23; book 4, line 84
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lyinass: to say that the Tassili Ladies are not wearing hats or headgear of some sort, to say that these are Fulani hairstyles is complete speculation on Mr. Djehuti's part. In my opinion it's wrong.
There is no expert on Algerian rock art who has said the Tassili Ladies have a Fulani hairstyle or even that their hair is what is represented by those shapes. It's wrong they are headgear not hats and their color matches colors on their capes. How many times have I told you check what Djehuti says, he makes up stuff.
Hey, idiot! When Basil Davidson said the hairstyles were surprisingly modern he DID make a reference to Fulani!! Why?? Because not only do the hairstyles resemble those of modern Fulani as there is no indication that this was somehow "hats" or headdresses. But the vast majority of rock paintings in Tasili show scenes and rituals practiced by the Fulani today!! Most scholars from Basil Davidson, to Graham Connah, to Marq de Villiers all agree that these rock paintings were made by and depict the ancestors of modern Fulani!!
As usual the only one speculating is YOU and it is pigsh|t. All that Lyingass productions is worth.
Basil Davidson is speculating like everyone else.
And if we look at contemporary Fulani woman what do we see:
^^^^plenty of headgear, bozo.
Oh so Mr. Euro -Basil is the ultimate authority? He's guessing like everybody else. There is no way of telling for sure if that's hair or some turban type wrap. To me it looks like the latter. The light skin? Necessarily Caucasian? Not necessarily it could be an artist's interpretation. The Fulani are not the darkest Africans to begin with. Another possibility is that light skinned people came into the region and found that the locals had the most appropriate clothing so they wore the same thing. There are a lot of possibilities. Cape type and head wrap clothing are not unique to the Fulani. What looks astonishingly modern to a European may in fact be the same type of clothing worn continually for a few thousand years.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: First of all, the picture above was proven to be a fake.
this is a lie. bottom line, basil Davidson did not say the Tassili ladies was a fake. That the garb looked "astonishingly modern" does not equal fake. In fact he dated the painting 3000 BC. any more lies?
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by castratedhide: It also helps explain this.. =========
There are ancient writings which describe the Berbers as blonde/red haired and white skinned long before the slave trade.
Also ancient rock art -
The Berbers were Caucasoid, as are their modern descendants. The pure-blooded ones in the isolated mountains of algeria are still pale skinned and blonde.
First of all, the picture above was proven to be a fake.
Second, the picture does not even depict Berber but FULANI as seen by their hairdos. Why would a supposedly white people be wearing black African hairstyles??
oh here's that painting I was looking for. I thought I had just seen it all over Euronut sites but turns it was just the girl who who'd be Queen of Euronuts - Lyin_ss.
I had just read on u tube that this was listed on the World heritage site as one of the fakes' of henri Lhote. I should have known it was a fake in the midst of Tassili but more so since the "ladies" are wearing Ponchos and some kind of weird French hairstyles looking circa 1940s or 50s? Does anybody know where the specific source of the info is.
I'm wondering if the Martian round heads were found to be faked too? Simply despicable. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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I knew a lot of algerians in France. While some do look mixed with obvious Black features. The majority are dark mediterranean looking. Here are the typical Algerians you see in France. They don't look like Mulattos.
So stop cherry picking photos already. And the fact that E-M81 derives from North East Africa doesn't mean jack. Folks likely mixed with Eurasians by the time they reached the Maghreb especially with females of U6 variety and then with H carriers. Who gives a fcuk what some of their ancestors may have looked like 10,000 years ago in East Africa? It's what they look like now.
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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I knew a lot of algerians in France. While some do look mixed with obvious Black features. The majority are dark mediterranean looking. Here are the typical Algerians you see in France. They don't look like Mulattos.
So stop cherry picking photos already. And the fact that E-M81 derives from North East Africa doesn't mean jack. Folks likely mixed with Eurasians by the time they reached the Maghreb especially with females of U6 variety and then with H carriers. Who gives a fcuk what some of their ancestors may have looked like 10,000 years ago in East Africa? It's what they look like now.
Many of the people of coastal North Africa are simply of recent European ancestry.
I think it is in the book on Algeria : A Country Study, where I read that up to 30% of the population of Algiers in the 19th century were of south European ancestry - descendants of slaves, mercenaries and pirates.
According to a recent book by Robert Davis, Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters (2003) Tripoli, in Libya for example, was “occasionally reportedly crowded with large numbers of Greek slaves” (Davis, 2003, p. 112).
There are those with earlier European ancestry however, - According to G. Campes Berberes Aux Marges de'LHistoire the techniques of making jewelry among the Algerian Kabyles are similar to that of the ancient Vandalsm,Lombards and other Germanic-related peoples. They still make pottery in the early Greek style.
Modern Ghomara are very of Morocco are very light in color and claim descent from the Masmuda further south south. The Masmuda are only referred to as blacks before the 15th century. The article Army Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt says - “Masamida were Berbers from the Western Maghreb. Nasir-i Khusrau, however, says that they were blacks and characterized them as infantry who used lances and swords” (Lev, p. 342). Of course like the Persian Nasir, Abu Shama also stated the Masmuda were black in the 13th century in his Kitab al-Ravdatayn (Islam: Religion and Society, 2. Bernard Lewis, 1974, p. 217).
Their most important branch was the Ghumara which held all of the Mediterranean plains (See The Muslim Conquest and Settlement of North Africa and Spain, A. Taha, 1988, p. 26). Obviously slavery has played a large part in the present appearance of the Berbers. The Masmuda and all other major tribes of Berbers are described the same way until the 15th century.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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I knew a lot of algerians in France. While some do look mixed with obvious Black features. The majority are dark mediterranean looking. Here are the typical Algerians you see in France. They don't look like Mulattos.
So stop cherry picking photos already. And the fact that E-M81 derives from North East Africa doesn't mean jack. Folks likely mixed with Eurasians by the time they reached the Maghreb especially with females of U6 variety and then with H carriers. Who gives a fcuk what some of their ancestors may have looked like 10,000 years ago in East Africa? It's what they look like now.
Many of the people of coastal North Africa are simply of recent European ancestry.
I think it is in the book on Algeria : A Country Study, where I read that up to 30% of the population of Algiers in the 19th century were of south European ancestry - descendants of slaves, mercenaries and pirates.
According to a recent book by Robert Davis, Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters (2003) Tripoli, in Libya for example, was “occasionally reportedly crowded with large numbers of Greek slaves” (Davis, 2003, p. 112).
There are those with earlier European ancestry however, - According to G. Campes Berberes Aux Marges de'LHistoire the techniques of making jewelry among the Algerian Kabyles are similar to that of the ancient Vandalsm,Lombards and other Germanic-related peoples. They still make pottery in the early Greek style.
Modern Ghomara are very of Morocco are very light in color and claim descent from the Masmuda further south south. The Masmuda are only referred to as blacks before the 15th century. The article Army Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt says - “Masamida were Berbers from the Western Maghreb. Nasir-i Khusrau, however, says that they were blacks and characterized them as infantry who used lances and swords” (Lev, p. 342). Of course like the Persian Nasir, Abu Shama also stated the Masmuda were black in the 13th century in his Kitab al-Ravdatayn (Islam: Religion and Society, 2. Bernard Lewis, 1974, p. 217).
Their most important branch was the Ghumara which held all of the Mediterranean plains (See The Muslim Conquest and Settlement of North Africa and Spain, A. Taha, 1988, p. 26). Obviously slavery has played a large part in the present appearance of the Berbers. The Masmuda and all other major tribes of Berbers are described the same way until the 15th century.
I do not dispute that were indeed a lot of European slaves brought to the coastal cities of North Africa, you mention Greek and Germanic influences. However this does not mean that prior to these influences the most of the coastal North Africans were Blacks. What of the ancient Egyptian depictions of the Libyan Temehu which dates back far before Hellenistic times? Also I should mention that the highest frequencies of mtdna H1 found anywhere in the world is in the Fezzan in Libya which is pretty deep into the Sahara not the coastal areas. Also we have historical records from Morocco etc not to mention the chronicals of Ibn Battuta, himself a Moor from Tunisia, who said that the land of the Blacks began in Southern Mauritania. He also mentioned a number of Berberb tribes who he claimed were very pale/White. In any case, many anthroplogists believe that Eurasians crossed over into North Africa during the last glacial maximum. When you consider the short distance between the tip of Spain and the Moroccan coast, this is certianly not hard to believe. There are also material remains of Western European megalithic culture in North Afica, for what it's worth.
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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I knew a lot of algerians in France. While some do look mixed with obvious Black features. The majority are dark mediterranean looking. Here are the typical Algerians you see in France. They don't look like Mulattos.
So stop cherry picking photos already. And the fact that E-M81 derives from North East Africa doesn't mean jack. Folks likely mixed with Eurasians by the time they reached the Maghreb especially with females of U6 variety and then with H carriers. Who gives a fcuk what some of their ancestors may have looked like 10,000 years ago in East Africa? It's what they look like now.
Melchior7 the idiot,
Try to understand something here, I know a lot of Moroccans here where I live. Most look like mixed blacks. The photo's I've posted aren't cerry picked, but are from well known Moroccans of here. Get that through your dumd skull.
Another fact here is that North Africa often has been invaded, and that North Africans have more admixture, mixture than other Africans. This is a historical fact. Another fact is that in North Africa you still have descendants of those who colonized North Afican countries. Like Spain, Portugal and even Turkey. So you picture spam is moreso a joke.
Also, at the coastal region you will find folks very similar to Mediterranean furher in land that contrast fades.
But the thing is with folks like you, you think you know it all and everything. This is why you will remain stupid as you are.
You think you can outdo all experts in different disciplines.
Hilarious dimwit.
The fact that E-81 derives from predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker, means that in their root they are African. Dumbo! If they had nothing to do with Africa and other Africans they would not have carried this hg in the first place. Certainly not in such an abundance.
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
Since the 4000 BC, the indigenous peoples of northern Africa (identified by the Romans as Berbers) were pushed back from the coast by successive waves of Phoenician, Roman, Vandal, Byzantine, Arab, Turkish, and, finally, French invaders.
When you "add" more and more water to wine the wine eventually will become watered down, losing the original flavor, color and taste. So stop whining, ilk.
And Algerians also differ from other North Africans in phenotype. Something else you will not grasp.
If the North Africans looked by any contrast more European they whould approach European travelers in Berber or Arabic, which is not happening. Yet when a black foreigner travels the country he, she, is approached at in Arabic or Berber....
"Frigi et al.(2010) suggest these possibilities as factors in their consideration of the asymmetric assimilation of females of non-African origin into Berber-speaking populations whose males currently have a predominance lineage's defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Quote; whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker."
A better question is, why is the mt-DNA Eurasian like. If this by any contrast is truly the case. There are many populations where the mt-DNA is different from the paternal hg cluster.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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I knew a lot of algerians in France. While some do look mixed with obvious Black features. The majority are dark mediterranean looking. Here are the typical Algerians you see in France. They don't look like Mulattos.
So stop cherry picking photos already. And the fact that E-M81 derives from North East Africa doesn't mean jack. Folks likely mixed with Eurasians by the time they reached the Maghreb especially with females of U6 variety and then with H carriers. Who gives a fcuk what some of their ancestors may have looked like 10,000 years ago in East Africa? It's what they look like now.
Many of the people of coastal North Africa are simply of recent European ancestry.
I think it is in the book on Algeria : A Country Study, where I read that up to 30% of the population of Algiers in the 19th century were of south European ancestry - descendants of slaves, mercenaries and pirates.
According to a recent book by Robert Davis, Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters (2003) Tripoli, in Libya for example, was “occasionally reportedly crowded with large numbers of Greek slaves” (Davis, 2003, p. 112).
There are those with earlier European ancestry however, - According to G. Campes Berberes Aux Marges de'LHistoire the techniques of making jewelry among the Algerian Kabyles are similar to that of the ancient Vandalsm,Lombards and other Germanic-related peoples. They still make pottery in the early Greek style.
Modern Ghomara are very of Morocco are very light in color and claim descent from the Masmuda further south south. The Masmuda are only referred to as blacks before the 15th century. The article Army Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt says - “Masamida were Berbers from the Western Maghreb. Nasir-i Khusrau, however, says that they were blacks and characterized them as infantry who used lances and swords” (Lev, p. 342). Of course like the Persian Nasir, Abu Shama also stated the Masmuda were black in the 13th century in his Kitab al-Ravdatayn (Islam: Religion and Society, 2. Bernard Lewis, 1974, p. 217).
Their most important branch was the Ghumara which held all of the Mediterranean plains (See The Muslim Conquest and Settlement of North Africa and Spain, A. Taha, 1988, p. 26). Obviously slavery has played a large part in the present appearance of the Berbers. The Masmuda and all other major tribes of Berbers are described the same way until the 15th century.
I do not dispute that were indeed a lot of European slaves brought to the coastal cities of North Africa, you mention Greek and Germanic influences. However this does not mean that prior to these influences the most of the coastal North Africans were Blacks. What of the ancient Egyptian depictions of the Libyan Temehu which dates back far before Hellenistic times? Also I should mention that the highest frequencies of mtdna H1 found anywhere in the world is in the Fezzan in Libya which is pretty deep into the Sahara not the coastal areas. Also we have historical records from Morocco etc not to mention the chronicals of Ibn Battuta, himself a Moor from Tunisia, who said that the land of the Blacks began in Southern Mauritania. He also mentioned a number of Berberb tribes who he claimed were very pale/White. In any case, many anthroplogists believe that Eurasians crossed over into North Africa during the last glacial maximum. When you consider the short distance between the tip of Spain and the Moroccan coast, this is certianly not hard to believe. There are also material remains of Western European megalithic culture in North Afica, for what it's worth.
It doesn't matter whether you dispute it or not, it's a recorded historical event that females from Europe have been taken as slaves to North Africa. The proof is in the pudding.
And that LGM is another hypothesis. Ice caps were too thick and it was too cold for the soil to become fertile. It was simple not possible to live there, the journey would have taken too long in order to survive.. Only afterwards the LGM it could have happened. But not during. So you can scratch that option.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by rahotep101: Morocco, Atlas Mountains:
Tunisian Berbers:
Ibrahim ag Bahanga, a Malian Tuareg leader:
Egyptian Copts and Amazigh Berbers are the indigenous peoples of North Africa, and they are not blacks. Not originally, and not, for the most part, now. I'm sorry if that's inconvenient for your pan-Afican race myth but there you have it.
The fist of these unfortunates is a Libyan through Ancient Egyptian eyes. Not very dark, is he? These Libyans were not new arrivals from Europe, they have more distant (prehistoric) Caucasian ancestry.
Talk about handpicked - why not handpick slaves from U.S> plantations and call them Anglos - Doc from youtube! ARe you the only EURONUT now spouting that nonsense of blond Berbers, and you aren't aware of teh fact the Copts are descended from Byzantines and some are Egyptians.
Tell me which Berber tribe in the era of the Midieval Moors was blond! Anyone can go to the coast north Africa and pick a fair-skinned person probable of Albanian, Turk or Circassian slave descent. What makes them related to Berbers who were all called black. Masmuda, Zanata, Sanhaja, Kitama and other Tuareg people and Wangara related people are not white. Where is your evidence of a singe Mauri or Berber tribe that was not called aswad byt the Arabic writers before the 15th century. Don't think showing a single mulatto mixed with a person of the sea in ancient Libyans is going to change anything.
Most people from the Atlas don't look like Frenchman or Circassians. Sorry if the vast majority of Berbers including those in the Atlas, Sus and Sahara don't look like you and your Broomhilda compatriots. Almost ALL Tuareg of Mali are dark brown in color. They were of course those dragging European slaves by their necks through the desert not long ago. BTW the Tuareg nobles wear only indigo turbans. I would subggest stay off of Euronut search forum for your own sanity.lol!
Syrian looking people you posted without their mouths covered are hardly pure Tuareg thats if they have any Tuareg at all in them.
Typical Tuareg tribe of Mali with nobles in blue indigo
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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The specialists on the Berbers know that it is today just a language that links them "'There is little doubt that the whole of North Africa spoke Berber languages at one time, while in the Middle Ages they occupied much of Spain and Sicily as well. But just as the dialects are mutually incomprehensible so the people themselves are extremely heterogeneous: the existence of an ethnically defined unified people is no more demonstrable for the past than it is today. Indeed, there are a bewildering number of cultures, economies and physical characteristics." From the book The Berbers by Brett and Fentress 1997, pp.3-4.
These "bewildering number of cultures" and physical characteristics are due to the impact of Vandals Romans, Persians, Syrians, Turks, French and Greek and Circassian men and women. Their descendants speak the Berber dialects as do the still dark skinned descendants of the early blacks known as the Berbers i.e. Masmuda or Shluh, Zanata, Nafusawa, Ghuwara/Jawara, Kitama, Sanhaja i. e. the Tuareg, Fulani and Zaghawa. Across the cities of Ottoman North AFrica were large numbers of European mercenaries, slave soldiers and slaves. This is especially the case of coastal cities like Algiers and Tripoli.
Tripoli, for example, was “occasionally reportedly crowded with large numbers of Greek slaves” (Christian Slaves Muslim Masters, R. Davis, 2003, p. 112)
"The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters… “ (Brożyna, 2005, Martha A. (2005). Gender and sexuality in the Middle Ages: a medieval source documents reader, Jefferson, NC: McFarland Publishers. p. 303).
Kel Ewey are also called Imakitan were known as the Berbers called Kitama or Kutama. The Kutama were the Berbers of the Little Kabylia, ( See Bianquis, 1988, "Egypt from the Arab conquest to the end of the Fatimid state". In In Muḥammad Fāsī & Ivan Hrbek (Eds.). Africa from the Seventh to the Eleventh century (pp. 315-335). Unesco. International Scientific Committee for the Drafting of a General History of Africa.p. 164; an area once occupied by the Mauri.
Berber of southern Morocco
Kel Adagh or Kel Adrar of Mali true Tuareg young men - their color is called "white" in AFrican and Arabic parlance and texts
Many rather European looking Berbers claim descent from the Zanata and the Masmuda tribes. But these tribes are only refered to as black 5-600 years ago. many Zenata and Masmuda are very dark in color.
Zekara Berbers of the Zenata stock in Morocco
Masmuda or Shluh/Chleuh/Shilha Berbers once occupied the coasts of Morocco and Spain 11th c. They are among the lesser mixed groups still living in the Atlas. Nasir Khusraw in the 11th century calls them "the blacks" and said they were 20,000 troops of the Fatimid army.
Modern military historian Yaacov Lev writes “Masamida were Berbers from the Western Maghreb. Nasir-i Khusrau, however, says that they were blacks and characterized them as infantry who used lances and swords” “Army Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt” (1987)
Abut Shama of Syria the 13th century calls them the "blacks"
Modern near white groups closer to the coast claim descent from the Masmuda Until the 13th century Masmuda are mentioned only as the blacks. They were the most important Berber group in the early period to enter Spain. Some scholars say the Barghwata branch of the Masmuda were the ancient Mauri called Bacquates.
There were no "fair-skinned" Berber tribes mentioned in early Arab texts or Roman texts or Byzantine or Greek texts. Period!
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Whether Kabyle came from North Europe or have relative high dosage of North European add-mixture. Is open for debate. Fact is, however. Vandals came from Germany, linked to North Europeans from where they do originate. The genepool is evidence of this.
The Vandals settled in Tunisia. They were mostly wiped out. But I have read that some did marry in with the native population. But this is in specific areas. The Vandals didn't spend a great deal of time in other parts of North Africa to leave a significant imprint except in Tunisia, in the area around Carthage.
My point is not that they eventual settled in Tunisia. But that they moved into North Africa via the Rif area. And that there genepool is still precent. As well as that of other groups who've invaded that part of Africa and settled there. This also goes for enslaved Saqaliba and Mamluks. As recored history confirms and can be found in the mt-DNA autosomal of Northwestern Berber tribes.
Unfortunately genetic studies never mention any of this, the reason is, I think. Because of a superiority feeling. They rather ignore than admit this part of European history.
Ancient Greek settlements at North Africa were very local and small.
The fact that the fairer skinned Kabyles still wear Balkan type dress, make jewelry similar to the Vandals, pottery similar to the Greeks (according to Gabriel Camps in the Berberes aux marge de lhistoire) and resemble closely both north and southern Europeans osteologically , while the near black Kabyle tribes were the majority of the people of Kabylia according to colonialists & still dwelling in their Numidian huts tells you that these are people of two separate origins.
One were mainly descendants of Numidian, Mauri and one obviously not.lol!
Furthermore we know exactly which Mauri or Berbers occupied the Aures and Kabylia. They were the still black Jarawa or Ghuwara tribes and Tuareg tribes of Kitama and Zenata and Mauri Bavares, leaving out the possibilty of the ancient Berbers.
Of course the Vandals also lived in the Aures and naturally could have contributed to present populations there.
Kabyle woman of the 19th century.
True ancient Berbers of the Aures and Kabylia were derived from the Garawan or Jarawa and other black Africans mixed with the almost as black Imakitan Tuareg otherwise known as Kitama or Kutama and anciently known as Uacutameni, Micateni or Mactuni manus.
Berber man Kabylie
Just because Berbers speak the same dialect today doesn't make them a homogeneous people.
Kabylie woman in her typical Balkan, Bulgarian or whatever European dress that is.
Why would anybody believe these distinct people that don't even have the same culture are related. Berbers and Numidians and Mauri were the same people. Vandals, Slavs and Albanians in Kabylia were not related to either the Numidians and Mauri i.e. the Berbers.
Of course there are also the Roman element in Kabylia that mixed with the Mauri. They are the mixtures or "hybrids" spoken of by Claudian who referred to Gildo giving Roman women to his Ethiopian Nasamonian kinsmen or the Berbers.
St Augustine born in the Kabyle area of Souk-Aras was perhaps the most famous of the half-Berber half Roman individuals. His mother was said to be a Berber and his father was Roman.
Along with the Byzantine Roman, Vandal, Balkan and Albanian-looking Kabyles, there are those that look like they came straight from Uzbekistan or Turkmenistan. (I'm sure they don't even realize what they look like.) This was also a characteristic introduced by the Turks.
Interesting that colonialist mention the dark skinned and near black tribes as the predominant Kabyle type while today there rarely mention of them anywhere.
Most fair Kabyles will tell you the darker skins ones are those who mixed with Arabs. lol!
1890 - “The Kabyles or Kabaily of Algerian and Tunisian territories…besides tillage, work the mines contained in their mountains…They live in huts made of branches of trees and covered with clay which resemble the Magalia of the old Numidians…They are of middle stature, their complexion brown and sometimes nearly black.” Written in The Encyclopedia Britannica: Dictionary of Arts, Sciences and General Literature Henry G. Allen Company p. 261 Volume I 1890.
A similar separation exists in the Riff among dark and light skinned Zanata Berbers - SPEAKERS.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: ^^^^so dana, the Sea People and Phoenicans were black too?
Why would the European sea people who invaded and settled in the area of the Libyan Africans be black LYIN _ SS? Is that what ur getting from the Euronut sites?
As for the Phoenicians/Canaanites I'll have to agree with Sergi on that one. After all they are still known under their ancient name in their original Arabian homeland along the Eritrean Sea as I've already told you a number of times.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: ^^^^so dana, the Sea People and Phoenicans were black too?
Why would the European sea people who invaded and settled in the area of the Libyan Africans be black LYIN _ SS? Is that what ur getting from the Euronut sites?
As for the Phoenicians/Canaanites I'll have to agree with Sergi on that one. After all they are still known under their ancient name in their original Arabian homeland along the Eritrean Sea as I've already told you a number of times.
In many Egyptian artworks you see light skinned Libyans, Ramesses tomb etc. 20th dyn 1187 to 1064 BC. and earlier This could account for an Asiatic or "Caucasian" component of Berbers as well as black African Berbers and mixtures thereof, also Berbers. You might think they are not "real Berbers" but people of the Atlas mountains, light skinned portion of Mozabites are today called Berbers and this migrant history goes back at least 3000 years. African Tuareg are also Berbers.
^^^Right?
Also it is unclear to regard Berbers to have no known starting point in time or if indigenous people of the area should be regarded to be Berbers at the point when people frst started speaking Berber language.
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Whether Kabyle came from North Europe or have relative high dosage of North European add-mixture. Is open for debate. Fact is, however. Vandals came from Germany, linked to North Europeans from where they do originate. The genepool is evidence of this.
The Vandals settled in Tunisia. They were mostly wiped out. But I have read that some did marry in with the native population. But this is in specific areas. The Vandals didn't spend a great deal of time in other parts of North Africa to leave a significant imprint except in Tunisia, in the area around Carthage.
My point is not that they eventual settled in Tunisia. But that they moved into North Africa via the Rif area. And that there genepool is still precent. As well as that of other groups who've invaded that part of Africa and settled there. This also goes for enslaved Saqaliba and Mamluks. As recored history confirms and can be found in the mt-DNA autosomal of Northwestern Berber tribes.
Unfortunately genetic studies never mention any of this, the reason is, I think. Because of a superiority feeling. They rather ignore than admit this part of European history.
Ancient Greek settlements at North Africa were very local and small.
The fact that the fairer skinned Kabyles still wear Balkan type dress, make jewelry similar to the Vandals, pottery similar to the Greeks (according to Gabriel Camps in the Berberes aux marge de lhistoire) and resemble closely both north and southern Europeans osteologically , while the near black Kabyle tribes were the majority of the people of Kabylia according to colonialists & still dwelling in their Numidian huts tells you that these are people of two separate origins.
One were mainly descendants of Numidian, Mauri and one obviously not.lol!
Furthermore we know exactly which Mauri or Berbers occupied the Aures and Kabylia. They were the still black Jarawa or Ghuwara tribes and Tuareg tribes of Kitama and Zenata and Mauri Bavares, leaving out the possibilty of the ancient Berbers.
Of course the Vandals also lived in the Aures and naturally could have contributed to present populations there.
Kabyle woman of the 19th century.
True ancient Berbers of the Aures and Kabylia were derived from the Garawan or Jarawa and other black Africans mixed with the almost as black Imakitan Tuareg otherwise known as Kitama or Kutama and anciently known as Uacutameni, Micateni or Mactuni manus.
Berber man Kabylie
Just because Berbers speak the same dialect today doesn't make them a homogeneous people.
Kabylie woman in her typical Balkan, Bulgarian or whatever European dress that is.
Why would anybody believe these distinct people that don't even have the same culture are related. Berbers and Numidians and Mauri were the same people. Vandals, Slavs and Albanians in Kabylia were not related to either the Numidians and Mauri i.e. the Berbers.
Of course there are also the Roman element in Kabylia that mixed with the Mauri. They are the mixtures or "hybrids" spoken of by Claudian who referred to Gildo giving Roman women to his Ethiopian Nasamonian kinsmen or the Berbers.
St Augustine born in the Kabyle area of Souk-Aras was perhaps the most famous of the half-Berber half Roman individuals. His mother was said to be a Berber and his father was Roman.
Along with the Byzantine Roman, Vandal, Balkan and Albanian-looking Kabyles, there are those that look like they came straight from Uzbekistan or Turkmenistan. (I'm sure they don't even realize what they look like.) This was also a characteristic introduced by the Turks.
Interesting that colonialist mention the dark skinned and near black tribes as the predominant Kabyle type while today there rarely mention of them anywhere.
Most fair Kabyles will tell you the darker skins ones are those who mixed with Arabs. lol!
1890 - “The Kabyles or Kabaily of Algerian and Tunisian territories…besides tillage, work the mines contained in their mountains…They live in huts made of branches of trees and covered with clay which resemble the Magalia of the old Numidians…They are of middle stature, their complexion brown and sometimes nearly black.” Written in The Encyclopedia Britannica: Dictionary of Arts, Sciences and General Literature Henry G. Allen Company p. 261 Volume I 1890.
A similar separation exists in the Riff among dark and light skinned Zanata Berbers - SPEAKERS.
posted
Why can't some folks understand that folks move around a lot under many different circumstances and under the worst of conditions they fuk and under the best of conditions they fuk even more? it should surprise no one that isolates can be found in any part of the world.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
Evergreen Writes: Berber is a language not a genotype or a phenotype. The earliest people to speak the language seem to derive from NE Africa, at a time when the physical remains indicate affinity with recent Horn of Africa and Sahelian types.
-------------------- Black Roots. Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
Like Dana said, most of the white Berbers, like the Kabylie have strong cultural and physical ties to various European people and cultures which can only be a result of the Turkish policy of importing Europeans to North Africa as slaves and mercenaries during their rule.
Albania, Greece, and other parts of Europe were under their rule and they were well known for slave trading Europeans throughout their empire and into North Africa.
And look at the time line. The Moorish Empire effectively ended at the start of the 1500s. The Turkish empire rose to prominence after the 1500s. The height of the Moorish empire was in the 11th and 12th centuries over 300 years before the Turks and almost 1000 years before the present day.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: [QB] Like Dana said, most of the white Berbers, like the Kabylie have strong cultural and physical ties to various European people and cultures which can only be a result of the Turkish policy of importing Europeans to North Africa as slaves and mercenaries during their rule.
Albania, Greece, and other parts of Europe were under their rule and they were well known for slave trading Europeans throughout their empire and into North Africa.
Kabylie:
Hungarian:
Lithuanian:
Romanian:
Such similarities are no coincidence.
Turkish empire:
And look at the time line. The Moorish Empire effectively ended at the start of the 1500s. The Turkish empire rose to prominence after the 1500s. The height of the Moorish empire was in the 11th and 12th centuries over 300 years before the Turks and almost 1000 years before the present day.
There is also a Phoenician/Sea People component that goes back much further, foundations of Carthage etc. , not Western European looking and not African looking either
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
The "sea people" were people of mixed origins from various places in Southern Europe and around the mediterranean. Some indeed did look European because they were European, while others looked like folks from Phoenicia and the Northern Levant. However, the sea people did not conquer and replace all the populations in North Africa and generally are only known in references to places in North Eastern Libya. That has no impact on the overall population make up in Morocco, Tunisia and the Sahara at the same time period. Yes they were there but they were not a total replacement of populations who already existed. Therefore people with predominantly African phenotypes still prevailed in most of North Africa even at this time.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The "sea people" were people of mixed origins from various places in Southern Europe and around the mediterranean. Some indeed did look European because they were European, while others looked like folks from Phoenicia and the Northern Levant. However, the sea people did not conquer and replace all the populations in North Africa and generally are only known in references to places in North Eastern Libya. That has no impact on the overall population make up in Morocco, Tunisia and the Sahara at the same time period. Yes they were there but they were not a total replacement of populations who already existed. Therefore people with predominantly African phenotypes still prevailed in most of North Africa even at this time.
The Sea people is one thing, mysterious origins and migrations But the Cartheginians were of Phoenician origin and had a civilization in Tunisia. Also if you look at most coins and statues representing Numidian kings, many do not look that African.
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Try to understand something here, I know a lot of Moroccans here where I live. Most look like mixed blacks. The photo's I've posted aren't cerry picked, but are from well known Moroccans of here. Get that through your dumd skull.
Another fact here is that North Africa often has been invaded, and that North Africans have more admixture, mixture than other Africans. This is a historical fact. Another fact is that in North Africa you still have descendants of those who colonized North Afican countries. Like Spain, Portugal and even Turkey. So you picture spam is moreso a joke.
Also, at the coastal region you will find folks very similar to Mediterranean furher in land that contrast fades.
But the thing is with folks like you, you think you know it all and everything. This is why you will remain stupid as you are.
You think you can outdo all experts in different disciplines.
Hilarious dimwit.
The fact that E-81 derives from predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker, means that in their root they are African. Dumbo! If they had nothing to do with Africa and other Africans they would not have carried this hg in the first place. Certainly not in such an abundance.
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
Since the 4000 BC, the indigenous peoples of northern Africa (identified by the Romans as Berbers) were pushed back from the coast by successive waves of Phoenician, Roman, Vandal, Byzantine, Arab, Turkish, and, finally, French invaders.
When you "add" more and more water to wine the wine eventually will become watered down, losing the original flavor, color and taste. So stop whining, ilk.
And Algerians also differ from other North Africans in phenotype. Something else you will not grasp.
If the North Africans looked by any contrast more European they whould approach European travelers in Berber or Arabic, which is not happening. Yet when a black foreigner travels the country he, she, is approached at in Arabic or Berber....
"Frigi et al.(2010) suggest these possibilities as factors in their consideration of the asymmetric assimilation of females of non-African origin into Berber-speaking populations whose males currently have a predominance lineage's defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Quote; whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker."
A better question is, why is the mt-DNA Eurasian like. If this by any contrast is truly the case. There are many populations where the mt-DNA is different from the paternal hg cluster.
What you neglect to mention is that there a large number of Black slaves brought into Morocco which has continued into recent times. Also I have lived in France and while some Maghrebians do look mixed the majority are mediterranean looking. And don't get all butt hurt and slinging insults just yet, you'll know when my foot is placed fully in your ass!
Yeah E-81 split off from East Africa.. yada yada yada. Come to think all Haplogroups have a root in East Africa, don't they? The point that concerns me is what did these folks look like by the time they settled in the Maghreb. Lets face it most E carrying Afro asiatic speaker tend have sharp "Mediteranean" features in contrast to West Africans. Also givien the timeline in North Africa they would likely have mixed with females of the U6 variety whom we know originated from the Middle East. Then there is the the other Eurasian mtdna like H and V etc. Did you know that in the highest frequency of Eurasian H1 in the world is in Fezzan in Southern Libya. There are also various local mutations which would inidcate that it has been there for a while. We are not talking about the coast here but deep in the freaking Sahara. This can't be from recent slavery. Think about it.
-------------------- In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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It doesn't matter whether you dispute it or not, it's a recorded historical event that females from Europe have been taken as slaves to North Africa. The proof is in the pudding.
And that LGM is another hypothesis. Ice caps were too thick and it was too cold for the soil to become fertile. It was simple not possible to live there, the journey would have taken too long in order to survive.. Only afterwards the LGM it could have happened. But not during. So you can scratch that option.
European slaves were males as well females and many more Black slaves were brought into Africa, let's not forget. I have yet to see someone make the case of European slaves becoming ethnic Berbers. At the very least that would seem counter intuitive since most would probably be owned by the arabized upper classes and Turks in the larger urban areas not by Berber peasants in some hillside village.
And as far what Dana said about the Kabyle having cultural traditions in common with Europeans, I would really like to see or READ something more substantive than just a few pictures of young girls in colorful dresses. Make it interesting.
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posted
You come off as very one sided here, On one had you claim that majority of Berber Peasants would not own slaves but dismiss black Berbers off as the result of Slavery.
Slavery in Islam was different than Slavery in the west. Slaves could be own by whole Tribes and given the influx of White Slaves in North Africa its quite moronic to claim that they did not leave an Impact.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
European slaves were males as well females and many more Black slaves were brought into Africa, let's not forget. I have yet to see someone make the case of European slaves becoming ethnic Berbers. At the very least that would seem counter intuitive since most would probably be owned by the arabized upper classes and Turks in the larger urban areas not by Berber peasants in some hillside village.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Doug M Like Dana said, most of the white Berbers, like the Kabylie have strong cultural and physical ties to various European people and cultures which can only be a result of the Turkish policy of importing Europeans to North Africa as slaves and mercenaries during their rule.
Albania, Greece, and other parts of Europe were under their rule and they were well known for slave trading Europeans throughout their empire and into North Africa.
And they brought Lithuanians too? Apparently from your photo. Do you know where Lithuania is sonny?
-------------------- In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: You come off as very one sided here, On one had you claim that majority of Berber Peasants would not own slaves but dismiss black Berbers off as the result of Slavery.
Slavery in Islam was different than Slavery in the west. Slaves could be own by whole Tribes and given the influx of White Slaves in North Africa its quite moronic to claim that they did not leave an Impact.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7:
European slaves were males as well females and many more Black slaves were brought into Africa, let's not forget. I have yet to see someone make the case of European slaves becoming ethnic Berbers. At the very least that would seem counter intuitive since most would probably be owned by the arabized upper classes and Turks in the larger urban areas not by Berber peasants in some hillside village.
Didn't know you were paying attention Jari. If you notice I never said White slaves didn't have an impact. If I wanted to look for the descendants of White slaves I would look in the major cities, where we know that many slaves where kept working in the bathouses or in construction projects etc. I would not expect the European slaves to end up becoming ethnic Berbers living in some remote village. Also where is the tradition among Arabized Magrhebians that many Berbers are in fact descendant from European slaves? If it's true, why don't we ever hear of it? They are however quick to point out Blacks as descendants of former slaves for some strange reason, especially in Morocco.
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: ^^^^so dana, the Sea People and Phoenicans were black too?
Why would the European sea people who invaded and settled in the area of the Libyan Africans be black LYIN _ SS? Is that what ur getting from the Euronut sites?
As for the Phoenicians/Canaanites I'll have to agree with Sergi on that one. After all they are still known under their ancient name in their original Arabian homeland along the Eritrean Sea as I've already told you a number of times.
In many Egyptian artworks you see light skinned Libyans, Ramesses tomb etc. 20th dyn 1187 to 1064 BC. and earlier This could account for an Asiatic or "Caucasian" component of Berbers as well as black African Berbers and mixtures thereof, also Berbers. You might think they are not "real Berbers" but people of the Atlas mountains, light skinned portion of Mozabites are today called Berbers and this migrant history goes back at least 3000 years. African Tuareg are also Berbers.
^^^Right?
Also it is unclear to regard Berbers to have no known starting point in time or if indigenous people of the area should be regarded to be Berbers at the point when people frst started speaking Berber language.
This is part of your problem Lyin_ss you still keep telling half truths or half lies rather . There are not a lot of light skinned portrayals of LIBYANS after the 20th dynasty. There are some possible light skinned ones and they can just as equally be ancestral to light skinned Tuareg, as they certainly don't look much like Romans, tanned French people and Vandals.
Most of the areas along the Libyan coast have been inundated with white slaves. Libya in particular was also an area where many "Scythians " were settled according to the Greeks. That is not me just making things up ; that is FACT.
It is also a FACTt that parts of the Aures and Kabyle area were settled by the Vandals and Greco Romans and that the Berbers in that area were known by the names Jarawa or Wangara - Africans who are still black, and other Kitama Tuareg ancestors to the Zanata.
The other reason we know that Berber tribes in the time of the Romans and Iranians were not looking like Albanians and Uzbekistanis is because of the different tribes of BERBERs and their description as aswad "blacks" by the Syrian, Iranian authors up until the 14th century , and by the skeletons of many modern near white Berber speakers which look like Europeans, rather than like ancient Libyans i.e. Fulani, Tuareg and Zaghai. THEY ARE EUROPEAN.
That doesn't mean a lot of yellowish and near white Berbers don't have African Berber in them. I'm sure most of them do, just as they have Mideastern and Eurasian blood.
The point is that there were ancient "Ethiopic" populations in Africa North and East and that were known as Berbers or Mauri to Arab writers, Greeks and Romans.
We are told over and over again in the documents that the appearance and culture and origin of these ancient people were the same as those of Abyssinians and the Sabeans of Meroe, the blue Nile and Arabia, and people of your ilk are trying to subvert that information (and also trying to make them into mulatto and Roman looking people)- for a wide array of imbecilic reasons that have nothing to do with history,, ,
And as someone who knows what mixed people and and who has a mother, brother, grandfather of AFrican descent who are lighter than most of the people you post - I resent your FEAR OF AND CONTEMPT FOR THE ORIGINAL BERBER BLACKNESS! Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor AKA Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: [QUOTE]Originally posted by melchior7: [qb] Ish Gebor
Whether Kabyle came from North Europe or have relative high dosage of North European add-mixture. Is open for debate. Fact is, however. Vandals came from Germany, linked to North Europeans from where they do originate. The genepool is evidence of this.
The Vandals settled in Tunisia. They were mostly wiped out. But I have read that some did marry in with the native population. But this is in specific areas. The Vandals didn't spend a great deal of time in other parts of North Africa to leave a significant imprint except in Tunisia, in the area around Carthage.
My point is not that they eventual settled in Tunisia. But that they moved into North Africa via the Rif area. And that there genepool is still precent. As well as that of other groups who've invaded that part of Africa and settled there. This also goes for enslaved Saqaliba and Mamluks. As recored history confirms and can be found in the mt-DNA autosomal of Northwestern Berber tribes.
Unfortunately genetic studies never mention any of this, the reason is, I think. Because of a superiority feeling. They rather ignore than admit this part of European history.
Ancient Greek settlements at North Africa were very local and small.
The fact that the fairer skinned Kabyles still wear Balkan type dress, make jewelry similar to the Vandals, pottery similar to the Greeks (according to Gabriel Camps in the Berberes aux marge de lhistoire) and resemble closely both north and southern Europeans osteologically , while the near black Kabyle tribes were the majority of the people of Kabylia according to colonialists & still dwelling in their Numidian huts tells you that these are people of two separate origins.
One were mainly descendants of Numidian, Mauri and one obviously not.lol!
Furthermore we know exactly which Mauri or Berbers occupied the Aures and Kabylia. They were the still black Jarawa or Ghuwara tribes and Tuareg tribes of Kitama and Zenata and Mauri Bavares, leaving out the possibilty of the ancient Berbers.
Of course the Vandals also lived in the Aures and naturally could have contributed to present populations there.
Kabyle woman of the 19th century.
True ancient Berbers of the Aures and Kabylia were derived from the Garawan or Jarawa and other black Africans mixed with the almost as black Imakitan Tuareg otherwise known as Kitama or Kutama and anciently known as Uacutameni, Micateni or Mactuni manus.
Berber man Kabylie
Just because Berbers speak the same dialect today doesn't make them a homogeneous people.
Kabylie woman in her typical Balkan, Bulgarian or whatever European dress that is.
Why would anybody believe these distinct people that don't even have the same culture are related. Berbers and Numidians and Mauri were the same people. Vandals, Slavs and Albanians in Kabylia were not related to either the Numidians and Mauri i.e. the Berbers.
Of course there are also the Roman element in Kabylia that mixed with the Mauri. They are the mixtures or "hybrids" spoken of by Claudian who referred to Gildo giving Roman women to his Ethiopian Nasamonian kinsmen or the Berbers.
St Augustine born in the Kabyle area of Souk-Aras was perhaps the most famous of the half-Berber half Roman individuals. His mother was said to be a Berber and his father was Roman.
Along with the Byzantine Roman, Vandal, Balkan and Albanian-looking Kabyles, there are those that look like they came straight from Uzbekistan or Turkmenistan. (I'm sure they don't even realize what they look like.) This was also a characteristic introduced by the Turks.
Interesting that colonialist mention the dark skinned and near black tribes as the predominant Kabyle type while today there rarely mention of them anywhere.
Most fair Kabyles will tell you the darker skins ones are those who mixed with Arabs. lol!
1890 - “The Kabyles or Kabaily of Algerian and Tunisian territories…besides tillage, work the mines contained in their mountains…They live in huts made of branches of trees and covered with clay which resemble the Magalia of the old Numidians…They are of middle stature, their complexion brown and sometimes nearly black.” Written in The Encyclopedia Britannica: Dictionary of Arts, Sciences and General Literature Henry G. Allen Company p. 261 Volume I 1890.
A similar separation exists in the Riff among dark and light skinned Zanata Berbers - SPEAKERS. [
All you have to do is read Berberes Aux Marges de L'Histoire by Gabriel Campes and other texts speaking of the material culture of the "Berbers" along the coasts.
I have seen too many of these so-called "genetic studies thking their samples direct from capitals of the white slave trade in Morocco and elsewhere to even consider the idea of a Berber gene pool.
Right now the studies are rather conflicting and most of them suggest incredible heterogeneity especially on the female side.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Whether Kabyle came from North Europe or have relative high dosage of North European add-mixture. Is open for debate. Fact is, however. Vandals came from Germany, linked to North Europeans from where they do originate. The genepool is evidence of this.
Ancient History Sourcebook: Procopius of Caesarea: Gaiseric & The Vandal Conquest of North Africa, 406 - 477 CE
"And yet the number of the Vandals and Alans was said in former times, at least, to amount to no more than fifty thousand men. However, after that time by their natural increase among themselves and by associating other barbarians with them they came to be an exceedingly numerous people."
* The Northern part of the Atlas area is close to the Mediterranean sea, before one enters the rest of Morocco one needs to enter there first, known as the RIF. Everyone knowledgeable of history knows that the Vandals entered there. There is no discussion about that.
This was a great post - Ish. I think I have to go back to Procopius and reread to absorb all those precious details because obviously there are so few on here interested in true history. Can't believe i have been back so many times to Procopius and every time I go back I can glean something spectacular.
Can't wait til I can do the same in the Arabic texts.
Found some fascinating papers on the color discrimination against the Garamantes and other proto-Berbers in the Vandal African period.
The author of the paper is a EuroAmerican professor from Binghampton University in New York.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Try to understand something here, I know a lot of Moroccans here where I live. Most look like mixed blacks. The photo's I've posted aren't cerry picked, but are from well known Moroccans of here. Get that through your dumd skull.
Another fact here is that North Africa often has been invaded, and that North Africans have more admixture, mixture than other Africans. This is a historical fact. Another fact is that in North Africa you still have descendants of those who colonized North Afican countries. Like Spain, Portugal and even Turkey. So you picture spam is moreso a joke.
Also, at the coastal region you will find folks very similar to Mediterranean furher in land that contrast fades.
But the thing is with folks like you, you think you know it all and everything. This is why you will remain stupid as you are.
You think you can outdo all experts in different disciplines.
Hilarious dimwit.
The fact that E-81 derives from predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker, means that in their root they are African. Dumbo! If they had nothing to do with Africa and other Africans they would not have carried this hg in the first place. Certainly not in such an abundance.
It is interesting that these “non-African”mtDNA lineages are usually predominant while being diverse (Coudray et al. 2009; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004; Khodjet-el-Khil et al. 2008).
Since the 4000 BC, the indigenous peoples of northern Africa (identified by the Romans as Berbers) were pushed back from the coast by successive waves of Phoenician, Roman, Vandal, Byzantine, Arab, Turkish, and, finally, French invaders.
When you "add" more and more water to wine the wine eventually will become watered down, losing the original flavor, color and taste. So stop whining, ilk.
And Algerians also differ from other North Africans in phenotype. Something else you will not grasp.
If the North Africans looked by any contrast more European they whould approach European travelers in Berber or Arabic, which is not happening. Yet when a black foreigner travels the country he, she, is approached at in Arabic or Berber....
"Frigi et al.(2010) suggest these possibilities as factors in their consideration of the asymmetric assimilation of females of non-African origin into Berber-speaking populations whose males currently have a predominance lineage's defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Quote; whose males currently have a predominance of lineages defined by the African M35/81 biallelic marker.
Predominance of lineages defined by "the African M35/81 biallelic marker."
A better question is, why is the mt-DNA Eurasian like. If this by any contrast is truly the case. There are many populations where the mt-DNA is different from the paternal hg cluster.
What you neglect to mention is that there a large number of Black slaves brought into Morocco which has continued into recent times. Also I have lived in France and while some Maghrebians do look mixed the majority are mediterranean looking. And don't get all butt hurt and slinging insults just yet, you'll know when my foot is placed fully in your ass!
Yeah E-81 split off from East Africa.. yada yada yada. Come to think all Haplogroups have a root in East Africa, don't they? The point that concerns me is what did these folks look like by the time they settled in the Maghreb. Lets face it most E carrying Afro asiatic speaker tend have sharp "Mediteranean" features in contrast to West Africans. Also givien the timeline in North Africa they would likely have mixed with females of the U6 variety whom we know originated from the Middle East. Then there is the the other Eurasian mtdna like H and V etc. Did you know that in the highest frequency of Eurasian H1 in the world is in Fezzan in Southern Libya. There are also various local mutations which would inidcate that it has been there for a while. We are not talking about the coast here but deep in the freaking Sahara. This can't be from recent slavery. Think about it.
The only this it says is that the Fessan have more admixture. No more no less. I wonder what these chicks were doing all by themselves all up in Africa. Copulating with African men.
..."it is important to bear in mind that over the centuries the Maghreb has been a melting-pot of many other ethnic groups and cultures"
Frigi et al.
Human Biology
August 2010 (82:4)
Discussion
In this study we attempted to better elucidate the ancient African genetic background in the northwest African area, particularly in Tunisia. To this aim, we focused our study on Berber populations that are considered representative of the ancient North African populations that probably derived from Neolithic Capsians.
"During historic times, Berbers experienced a long and complicated history with many invasions, conquests, and migrations by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, Arabs, Bedouins, Spanish, Turks, Andalusians, sub-Saharans (communities settled in Jerba and Gabes in the 16th–19th centuries), and French (Brett and Fentress 1996). During these invasions, Berbers were forced back to the mountains and to certain villages in southern Tunisia (Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004)."
Traveling spirit masters: Moroccan Gnawa trance and music in the global marketplace.
By Deborah Anne Kapchan
Wesleyan University Press, 2007, page 19.
*"Not all of the black African population are gnawa"
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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It doesn't matter whether you dispute it or not, it's a recorded historical event that females from Europe have been taken as slaves to North Africa. The proof is in the pudding.
And that LGM is another hypothesis. Ice caps were too thick and it was too cold for the soil to become fertile. It was simple not possible to live there, the journey would have taken too long in order to survive.. Only afterwards the LGM it could have happened. But not during. So you can scratch that option.
European slaves were males as well females and many more Black slaves were brought into Africa, let's not forget. I have yet to see someone make the case of European slaves becoming ethnic Berbers. At the very least that would seem counter intuitive since most would probably be owned by the arabized upper classes and Turks in the larger urban areas not by Berber peasants in some hillside village.
And as far what Dana said about the Kabyle having cultural traditions in common with Europeans, I would really like to see or READ something more substantive than just a few pictures of young girls in colorful dresses. Make it interesting.
Many more black slaves were brought into Africa? . Ok
And for your other comment. I have seen Berbers/ Moroccans make that comment.
And yes Arabs owned Berbers as slaves. And Turks moved into North Africa. Mostly at the coastal areas.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
From John Sparks - EuroAmerican professor of classics - New York University
on Garamantes and Gaitulians
article "Was White Beautiful in Vandal Africa?" chapter in G.K. Bhambra, D. Orrells, T. Roynon, edd. African Athena: New Agendas
"Two spottepigramme viciously attack the blackness of ‘Berber’ Garamantes from the African interior. AL183Riese labels a black man, possibly a successful athlete (Stevens,Kay), as ‘dregs that have invaded our space,’ ‘a black homeboy (verna) that loves his pitchy skin,’ an inhuman specter so dreadful that Dis should hire ‘the ink-blackened monster’ to guard the doors of hell. Luxorius 329R calls black Garamantian women ugly and white Pontic women beautiful indicating apt local color in his West-East geographical twist on the South-North Greek racial dichotomy of Ethiopians and Thracians/Scythians (Xenoph. fr.16Diehls). Luxorius praises white, feminine beauty in classic terms (364R), but with stronger cultural relevance in tributes to the white Vandal women among his ruling-class patrons (18R.36-7; 345R.6; George). By contrast, he castigates the dancer Gattula (361,362R), whose name may suggest Gaetulian heritage (Rosenblum; Melanogaetuli Ptol. 4.6.5) and her blackness (gattula/francolin-black partridge TLL 1629), as the epitome of horrifying ugliness, an ominous evil who disgusts audiences with her gyrating body and attracts only corpses with the fruits of her success."
Wow - So much for "Caucasian Berbers"
BTW - Luxurious was a Roman in Vandal Africa
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
As for the Vandal influence where do we begin on material culture - According to Gabriel Campes, p. 305 of Berberes: Aux Marges de L'Histoire, 1980."Effectivement, la bijouterie kabyle et celle des centres moins importants du Sud amarocain et de Tunisie appartienent a la grande famille des orfevreries cloisonnees ou filigranees emaillees qui, apparue en Orient, connut son plein developpement en Europe dans les royaumes barbares: franc, lombard, visigothique, du Haut Moyen Age. les Vandales, autre people germain, ont donc pu introduire cette technique en Afriqe."
Translates to " Effectively the Kabyle jewelry and those of less important centers in south Morocco and Tunisia belong to a great family of cloisonned and enameled jewelry, that appeared in the Orient, which had obviously developed in Europe in the kingdoms of the barbarians: Francs, Lombards, Visigoths of the Early Middle ages... The Vandals, another Germanic people therefore could have introduced this technique in Africa.'
He goes on to say that it seems to difficult to believe the Vandals who were so small in numbers had left this tradition which is maintained in Kabylia and the Anti-Atlas.
But adds it was also probably reintroduced into the Maghreb from Spain as it was also practiced by the Muslims who picked it up there.
The fact that this technique has a very strong presence in Kabylia speaks for itself.
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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It doesn't matter whether you dispute it or not, it's a recorded historical event that females from Europe have been taken as slaves to North Africa. The proof is in the pudding.
And that LGM is another hypothesis. Ice caps were too thick and it was too cold for the soil to become fertile. It was simple not possible to live there, the journey would have taken too long in order to survive.. Only afterwards the LGM it could have happened. But not during. So you can scratch that option.
European slaves were males as well females and many more Black slaves were brought into Africa, let's not forget. I have yet to see someone make the case of European slaves becoming ethnic Berbers. At the very least that would seem counter intuitive since most would probably be owned by the arabized upper classes and Turks in the larger urban areas not by Berber peasants in some hillside village.
And as far what Dana said about the Kabyle having cultural traditions in common with Europeans, I would really like to see or READ something more substantive than just a few pictures of young girls in colorful dresses. Make it interesting.
Many more black slaves were brought into Africa? . Ok
And for your other comment. I have seen Berbers/ Moroccans make that comment.
And yes Arabs owned Berbers as slaves. And Turks moved into North Africa. Mostly at the coastal areas.
Yes. Black slaves brought into NORTH Africa dumdum.
Yes Arabs and Turks were the major slave owners which is why it would seem strange for the descendants of European slaves to end up being ethnic Berbers living in some remote villages.
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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It doesn't matter whether you dispute it or not, it's a recorded historical event that females from Europe have been taken as slaves to North Africa. The proof is in the pudding.
And that LGM is another hypothesis. Ice caps were too thick and it was too cold for the soil to become fertile. It was simple not possible to live there, the journey would have taken too long in order to survive.. Only afterwards the LGM it could have happened. But not during. So you can scratch that option.
European slaves were males as well females and many more Black slaves were brought into Africa, let's not forget. I have yet to see someone make the case of European slaves becoming ethnic Berbers. At the very least that would seem counter intuitive since most would probably be owned by the arabized upper classes and Turks in the larger urban areas not by Berber peasants in some hillside village.
And as far what Dana said about the Kabyle having cultural traditions in common with Europeans, I would really like to see or READ something more substantive than just a few pictures of young girls in colorful dresses. Make it interesting.
Many more black slaves were brought into Africa? . Ok
And for your other comment. I have seen Berbers/ Moroccans make that comment.
And yes Arabs owned Berbers as slaves. And Turks moved into North Africa. Mostly at the coastal areas.
Yes. Black slaves brought into NORTH Africa dumdum.
Yes Arabs and Turks were the major slave owners which is why it would seem strange for the descendants of European slaves to end up being ethnic Berbers living in some remote villages.
Oh ok, because in your previous post you wrote, "into Africa", not into North Africa.
So, where is the genetic gene pool of "All these Black Africans"? And from where did they come? Or by your wills, where did it go?
Second, I did quote from prominent sources where it clearly states: not all "black" (dark skinned) North Africans are descendant from enslaved Africans. As Dana has proven as well with here sources. Some of these dark skinned people simple descendant from ancient tribes.
Why does it seems strange to you for some of these groups to become clustered with Berbers? I mean the Saqaliba and Mamluk came from where exactly......and were taken to where exactly? Explain what happened to the gene pool of these groups?
Let me repost it for you:
By Jamil M. Abun-Nasr
Cambridge University Press, 1987 - page 5.
..."it is important to bear in mind that over the centuries the Maghreb has been a melting-pot of many other ethnic groups and cultures"
Frigi et al.
Human Biology
August 2010 (82:4)
Discussion
In this study we attempted to better elucidate the ancient African genetic background in the northwest African area, particularly in Tunisia. To this aim, we focused our study on Berber populations that are considered representative of the ancient North African populations that probably derived from Neolithic Capsians.
" During historic times, Berbers experienced a long and complicated history with many invasions, conquests, and migrations by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, Arabs, Bedouins, Spanish, Turks, Andalusians, sub-Saharans (communities settled in Jerba and Gabes in the 16th–19th centuries), and French (Brett and Fentress 1996). During these invasions, Berbers were forced back to the mountains and to certain villages in southern Tunisia (Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004)."
Traveling spirit masters: Moroccan Gnawa trance and music in the global marketplace.
By Deborah Anne Kapchan
Wesleyan University Press, 2007, page 19.
"Not all of the black African population are gnawa"Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Oh ok, because in your previous post you wrote, "into Africa", not into North Africa.
So, where is the genetic gene pool of "All these Black Africans"? And from where did they come? Or by your wills, where did it go?
Second, I did quote from prominent sources where it clearly states: not all "black" (dark skinned) North Africans are descendant from enslaved Africans. As Dana has proven as well with here sources. Some of these dark skinned people simple descendant from ancient tribes.
Why does it seems strange to you for some of these groups to become clustered with Berbers? I mean the Saqaliba and Mamluk came from where exactly......and were taken to where exactly? Explain what happened to the gene pool of these groups?
In the States you have runaway slaves who were assimilated by the Seminoles and other Indian tribes. Unless there was a similar situation in North Africa I don't see why European slaves would end up in the hands of Berber peasants in an Arab dominated soceity. The demand for them would be in the cities for construction projects bath houses etc.
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Troll patrol
Oh ok, because in your previous post you wrote, "into Africa", not into North Africa.
So, where is the genetic gene pool of "All these Black Africans"? And from where did they come? Or by your wills, where did it go?
Second, I did quote from prominent sources where it clearly states: not all "black" (dark skinned) North Africans are descendant from enslaved Africans. As Dana has proven as well with here sources. Some of these dark skinned people simple descendant from ancient tribes.
Why does it seems strange to you for some of these groups to become clustered with Berbers? I mean the Saqaliba and Mamluk came from where exactly......and were taken to where exactly? Explain what happened to the gene pool of these groups?
In the States you have runaway slaves who were assimilated by the Seminoles and other Indian tribes. Unless there was a similar situation in North Africa I don't see why European slaves would end up in the hands of Berber peasants in an Arab dominated soceity. The demand for them would be in the cities for construction projects bath houses etc.
Can you respond to my question, and not distract to the States? And other nonsensical theories. Just address to point I referent to.If you don't have a proper anwer, just say so.
-why is it we don't see studies giving explanation to the autosomal in North Africans, of enslaved European females? Which is factual recorded history.
Can you explain why:
-..."it is important to bear in mind that over the centuries the Maghreb has been a melting-pot of many other ethnic groups and cultures" (By Jamil M. Abun-Nasr, Cambridge University Press, 1987 - page 5.)
As for your "all blacks were slaves"
Traveling spirit masters: Moroccan Gnawa trance and music in the global marketplace.
By Deborah Anne Kapchan
Wesleyan University Press, 2007, page 19.
"Not all of the black African population are gnawa"
Which is logic, since the paternal component came from East Africa.
Last but not least, your comment about the "black slaves", again? From where did they come? Brought into "Africa"?
We really have to get to the nitty gritty of this. So stop neglecting the questions I have purposed.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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