Whether Kabyle came from North Europe or have relative high dosage of North European add-mixture. Is open for debate. Fact is, however. Vandals came from Germany, linked to North Europeans from where they do originate. The genepool is evidence of this.
The Vandals settled in Tunisia. They were mostly wiped out. But I have read that some did marry in with the native population. But this is in specific areas. The Vandals didn't spend a great deal of time in other parts of North Africa to leave a significant imprint except in Tunisia, in the area around Carthage.
"Who" wiped them out "mostly", and when?
What happened to their remains and culture? And how long have they been there, before they got "wiped out mostly"?
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Can you respond to my question, and not distract to the States? And other nonsensical theories. Just address to point I referent to.If you don't have a proper anwer, just say so.
-why is it we don't see studies giving explanation to the autosomal in North Africans, of enslaved European females? Which is factual recorded history.
Can you explain why:
-..."it is important to bear in mind that over the centuries the Maghreb has been a melting-pot of many other ethnic groups and cultures" (By Jamil M. Abun-Nasr, Cambridge University Press, 1987 - page 5.)
As for your "all blacks were slaves"
Traveling spirit masters: Moroccan Gnawa trance and music in the global marketplace.
By Deborah Anne Kapchan
Wesleyan University Press, 2007, page 19.
"Not all of the black African population are gnawa"
Which is logic, since the paternal component came from East Africa.
Last but not least, your comment about the "black slaves", again? From where did they come? Brought into "Africa"?
We really have to get to the nitty gritty of this. So stop neglecting the questions I have purposed
No one denies that they were European female slaves. The main question people wonder is what are the orgins of the Berbers. I think the assumption is most of the recent European genetic input would be found in the major urban centers as I have been trying to explain to you. Much of the European mtDNA found in Berbers is believed to have arrived in North Africa before prehistoric times based on coalescent simulations.
The artilce on the gnawa states that there are only a FEW indigenous Blacks in Southern Morocco. And no, these would not likely descendants of East Africans but West Africans. Most of the Blacks brought into Morocco were also West Africans from places like Senegal and Mali etc.
-------------------- In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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Whether Kabyle came from North Europe or have relative high dosage of North European add-mixture. Is open for debate. Fact is, however. Vandals came from Germany, linked to North Europeans from where they do originate. The genepool is evidence of this.
The Vandals settled in Tunisia. They were mostly wiped out. But I have read that some did marry in with the native population. But this is in specific areas. The Vandals didn't spend a great deal of time in other parts of North Africa to leave a significant imprint except in Tunisia, in the area around Carthage.
"Who" wiped them out "mostly", and when?
What happened to their remains and culture? And how long have they been there, before they got "wiped out mostly"?
They were in Northern Tunisia for nearly a hundred years where they were constantly trying to stage attacks against Rome. The Byzantines finally defeated them and took over that part of North Africa. As to what happened to them after that. Here is what I found.
"..in 534 Gelimer surrendered to the Roman conqueror, ending the Kingdom of the Vandals. North Africa (which is north Tunisia and eastern Algeria at the period of the vandal) became a Roman province again, from which the Vandals were expelled. Most of the Vandals went to Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa in the Kabyl land in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers. Some other were put into imperial service or fled to the two Gothic kingdoms (Ostrogothic Kingdom and Visigothic kingdom), some vandal women married Byzantine soldiers settled in north Algeria and Tunisia. The choicest Vandal warriors were formed into five cavalry regiments, known as Vandali Iustiniani, and stationed on the Persian frontier. Some entered the private service of Belisarius" Bury, John Bagnell (1923), History of the Later Roman Empire, from the Death of Theodosius I to the Death of Justinian (A.D.395 to A.D. 565). Volume II
I did not know the part about them settling in Kabyle land. That could explain some things then.
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Troll patrol
Can you respond to my question, and not distract to the States? And other nonsensical theories. Just address to point I referent to.If you don't have a proper anwer, just say so.
-why is it we don't see studies giving explanation to the autosomal in North Africans, of enslaved European females? Which is factual recorded history.
Can you explain why:
-..."it is important to bear in mind that over the centuries the Maghreb has been a melting-pot of many other ethnic groups and cultures" (By Jamil M. Abun-Nasr, Cambridge University Press, 1987 - page 5.)
As for your "all blacks were slaves"
Traveling spirit masters: Moroccan Gnawa trance and music in the global marketplace.
By Deborah Anne Kapchan
Wesleyan University Press, 2007, page 19.
"Not all of the black African population are gnawa"
Which is logic, since the paternal component came from East Africa.
Last but not least, your comment about the "black slaves", again? From where did they come? Brought into "Africa"?
We really have to get to the nitty gritty of this. So stop neglecting the questions I have purposed
No one denies that they were European female slaves. The main question people wonder is what are the orgins of the Berbers. I think the assumption is most of the recent European genetic input would be found in the major urban centers as I have been trying to explain to you. Much of the European mtDNA found in Berbers is believed to have arrived in North Africa before prehistoric times based on coalescent simulations.
The artilce on the gnawa states that there are only a FEW indigenous Blacks in Southern Morocco. And no, these would not likely descendants of East Africans but West Africans. Most of the Blacks brought into Morocco were also West Africans from places like Senegal and Mali etc.
First, my question is still not answered: why aren't the "population genetic studies" acknowledging and mentioning the historical recorded fact that european female slaves have been taken to North Africa. By Moors, Arabs and Turks. Why you keep dancing around this question for many months now?
Second, the "so called article", is not an article but a line from a book. By someone who knows, unlike you. It says not all of the black/ dark skinned are descendants of slaves. It did not state some or a few. This is something you just made up yourself.
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
Whether Kabyle came from North Europe or have relative high dosage of North European add-mixture. Is open for debate. Fact is, however. Vandals came from Germany, linked to North Europeans from where they do originate. The genepool is evidence of this.
The Vandals settled in Tunisia. They were mostly wiped out. But I have read that some did marry in with the native population. But this is in specific areas. The Vandals didn't spend a great deal of time in other parts of North Africa to leave a significant imprint except in Tunisia, in the area around Carthage.
"Who" wiped them out "mostly", and when?
What happened to their remains and culture? And how long have they been there, before they got "wiped out mostly"?
They were in Northern Tunisia for nearly a hundred years where they were constantly trying to stage attacks against Rome. The Byzantines finally defeated them and took over that part of North Africa. As to what happened to them after that. Here is what I found.
"..in 534 Gelimer surrendered to the Roman conqueror, ending the Kingdom of the Vandals. North Africa (which is north Tunisia and eastern Algeria at the period of the vandal) became a Roman province again, from which the Vandals were expelled. Most of the Vandals went to Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa in the Kabyl land in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers. Some other were put into imperial service or fled to the two Gothic kingdoms (Ostrogothic Kingdom and Visigothic kingdom), some vandal women married Byzantine soldiers settled in north Algeria and Tunisia. The choicest Vandal warriors were formed into five cavalry regiments, known as Vandali Iustiniani, and stationed on the Persian frontier. Some entered the private service of Belisarius" Bury, John Bagnell (1923), History of the Later Roman Empire, from the Death of Theodosius I to the Death of Justinian (A.D.395 to A.D. 565). Volume II
I did not know the part about them settling in Kabyle land. That could explain some things then.
So you're saying that Arabs didn't encounter into these people called Vandals? Is that correct?
What genetic gene pool did these Vandals carry?
And since you mentioned the Byzantines and Romans, what gene pool did they carry, and from where did they come?
This part is rather interesting don't you think?
"Most of the Vandals went to Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa in the Kabyl land in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers."
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Troll patrol
Can you respond to my question, and not distract to the States? And other nonsensical theories. Just address to point I referent to.If you don't have a proper anwer, just say so.
-why is it we don't see studies giving explanation to the autosomal in North Africans, of enslaved European females? Which is factual recorded history.
Can you explain why:
-..."it is important to bear in mind that over the centuries the Maghreb has been a melting-pot of many other ethnic groups and cultures" (By Jamil M. Abun-Nasr, Cambridge University Press, 1987 - page 5.)
As for your "all blacks were slaves"
Traveling spirit masters: Moroccan Gnawa trance and music in the global marketplace.
By Deborah Anne Kapchan
Wesleyan University Press, 2007, page 19.
"Not all of the black African population are gnawa"
Which is logic, since the paternal component came from East Africa.
Last but not least, your comment about the "black slaves", again? From where did they come? Brought into "Africa"?
We really have to get to the nitty gritty of this. So stop neglecting the questions I have purposed
No one denies that they were European female slaves. The main question people wonder is what are the orgins of the Berbers. I think the assumption is most of the recent European genetic input would be found in the major urban centers as I have been trying to explain to you. Much of the European mtDNA found in Berbers is believed to have arrived in North Africa before prehistoric times based on coalescent simulations.
The artilce on the gnawa states that there are only a FEW indigenous Blacks in Southern Morocco. And no, these would not likely descendants of East Africans but West Africans. Most of the Blacks brought into Morocco were also West Africans from places like Senegal and Mali etc.
First, my question is still not answered: why aren't the "population genetic studies" acknowledging and mentioning the historical recorded fact that european female slaves have been taken to North Africa. By Moors, Arabs and Turks. Why you keep dancing around this question for many months now?
Second, the "so called article", is not an article but a line from a book. By someone who knows, unlike you. It says not all of the black/ dark skinned are descendants of slaves. It did not state some or a few. This is something you just made up yourself.
Don't get snooty with me son. This is what it says about Blacks in Morocco.
"Not all blacks in Morocco were slaves that originated from black West Africa. Some blacks were actually native to southern Morocco. Some sources suggest that groups of black people were indigenous of the Draa valley. They were sedentary agriculturists. With the advance of the Romans into the Moroccan interior in the 3rd century B.C.E., the Berbers, who inhabited the coastal areas of the Maghreb of North Africa, may have been forced to move towards the south and competed with the blacks inhabitants in the oases of the Draa, entering into an interdependent or clientele relationship with the Blacks, with the Berbers assuming the patron role"
And you likely first saw this citation form me. I posted it on Egyptsearch about six months ago in a debate Sundjata. The Draa valley is a small place far in the south of Morocco. As you can see the implication is that Blacks have always been a minority in Morocco. I can post more on this if you like.
What are the studies that don't aknowledge that there were European slaves in North africa? And it wasn't just female slaves but male slaves as well. This from Wikipedia.
"After the Muslim conquest, the Berber tribes of coastal North Africa became almost fully Arabized. Besides the Arab influence, North African population also saw an influx via the Barbary Slave Trade of European peoples, with some estimates placing the number of European slaves brought to North Africa during the Ottoman period as high as 1.25 million.[23] Interactions with neighboring Sudanic empires, traders and nomads from other parts of Africa also left impressions upon the Berber people"
Still the slaves likely didn't go to the Berbers bu to the Arabs.
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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posted
So you're saying that Arabs didn't encounter into these people called Vandals? Is that correct?
By the time the Arabs arrived whatever remaining Vandals had already mixed in with the local populations
What genetic gene pool did these Vandals carry? Likely R1a for males. It's not certain.
And since you mentioned the Byzantines and Romans, what gene pool did they carry, and from where did they come? Western and Eastern Europe and Asia.
This part is rather interesting don't you think?
"Most of the Vandals went to Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa in the Kabyl land in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers."
Yes it is. It could explain some of the blond traits in the Kabyle. But that wouldn't be from barbary saves. Here this is something you would like to see but I would take it with a grain of salt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH2UfdSkHV0
Riffians are a bit different Kabyle
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Troll patrol
Can you respond to my question, and not distract to the States? And other nonsensical theories. Just address to point I referent to.If you don't have a proper anwer, just say so.
-why is it we don't see studies giving explanation to the autosomal in North Africans, of enslaved European females? Which is factual recorded history.
Can you explain why:
-..."it is important to bear in mind that over the centuries the Maghreb has been a melting-pot of many other ethnic groups and cultures" (By Jamil M. Abun-Nasr, Cambridge University Press, 1987 - page 5.)
As for your "all blacks were slaves"
Traveling spirit masters: Moroccan Gnawa trance and music in the global marketplace.
By Deborah Anne Kapchan
Wesleyan University Press, 2007, page 19.
"Not all of the black African population are gnawa"
Which is logic, since the paternal component came from East Africa.
Last but not least, your comment about the "black slaves", again? From where did they come? Brought into "Africa"?
We really have to get to the nitty gritty of this. So stop neglecting the questions I have purposed
No one denies that they were European female slaves. The main question people wonder is what are the orgins of the Berbers. I think the assumption is most of the recent European genetic input would be found in the major urban centers as I have been trying to explain to you. Much of the European mtDNA found in Berbers is believed to have arrived in North Africa before prehistoric times based on coalescent simulations.
The artilce on the gnawa states that there are only a FEW indigenous Blacks in Southern Morocco. And no, these would not likely descendants of East Africans but West Africans. Most of the Blacks brought into Morocco were also West Africans from places like Senegal and Mali etc.
First, my question is still not answered: why aren't the "population genetic studies" acknowledging and mentioning the historical recorded fact that european female slaves have been taken to North Africa. By Moors, Arabs and Turks. Why you keep dancing around this question for many months now?
Second, the "so called article", is not an article but a line from a book. By someone who knows, unlike you. It says not all of the black/ dark skinned are descendants of slaves. It did not state some or a few. This is something you just made up yourself.
Don't get snooty with me son. This is what it says about Blacks in Morocco.
"Not all blacks in Morocco were slaves that originated from black West Africa. Some blacks were actually native to southern Morocco. Some sources suggest that groups of black people were indigenous of the Draa valley. They were sedentary agriculturists. With the advance of the Romans into the Moroccan interior in the 3rd century B.C.E., the Berbers, who inhabited the coastal areas of the Maghreb of North Africa, may have been forced to move towards the south and competed with the blacks inhabitants in the oases of the Draa, entering into an interdependent or clientele relationship with the Blacks, with the Berbers assuming the patron role"
And you likely first saw this citation form me. I posted it on Egyptsearch about six months ago in a debate Sundjata. The Draa valley is a small place far in the south of Morocco. As you can see the implication is that Blacks have always been a minority in Morocco. I can post more on this if you like.
What are the studies that don't aknowledge that there were European slaves in North africa? And it wasn't just female slaves but male slaves as well. This from Wikipedia.
"After the Muslim conquest, the Berber tribes of coastal North Africa became almost fully Arabized. Besides the Arab influence, North African population also saw an influx via the Barbary Slave Trade of European peoples, with some estimates placing the number of European slaves brought to North Africa during the Ottoman period as high as 1.25 million.[23] Interactions with neighboring Sudanic empires, traders and nomads from other parts of Africa also left impressions upon the Berber people"
Still the slaves likely didn't go to the Berbers bu to the Arabs.
Son? Are you retarded or something? lol
And no, I did not see any citation months ago?lol
*So my question is again, from where does the genetic male component in Berbers come? Did it come from the South? lol
-And the "suggestions" by those "scholars" are overwhelming! What they need to do is stop suggesting, if they don't know. lol
Now, stop twisting words and aswer my questions. Why don't we see mention of european slaves in genetic studies. As I posted above. Stop dancing around the question, please.
Now, again from where did these groups like the Byzantines and Romans, Mamluk and Saqaliba come as mentioned before in the previous post, and what is their gene pool? Did these people bring along cultures and tradition, into North Africa? And are these still detectable?
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: So you're saying that Arabs didn't encounter into these people called Vandals? Is that correct?
By the time the Arabs arrived whatever remaining Vandals had already mixed in with the local populations
What genetic gene pool did these Vandals carry? Likely R1a for males. It's not certain.
And since you mentioned the Byzantines and Romans, what gene pool did they carry, and from where did they come? Western and Eastern Europe and Asia.
This part is rather interesting don't you think?
"Most of the Vandals went to Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa in the Kabyl land in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers."
Yes it is. It could explain some of the blond traits in the Kabyle. But that wouldn't be from barbary saves. Here this is something you would like to see but I would take it with a grain of salt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH2UfdSkHV0
Riffians are a bit different Kabyle
So, now by the time Arabs arrived they the Vandals were already mixed with the indigenous local population? hmmmm ok.
And they were likely R1a thou you're not certain?
- So the Byzantines and Romans are Western and Eastern Europe and Asia. What gene pool does this comprise with?
And yes, your video is remarkable. This is exactly what they say in Morocco.
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: So you're saying that Arabs didn't encounter into these people called Vandals? Is that correct?
By the time the Arabs arrived whatever remaining Vandals had already mixed in with the local populations
What genetic gene pool did these Vandals carry? Likely R1a for males. It's not certain.
And since you mentioned the Byzantines and Romans, what gene pool did they carry, and from where did they come? Western and Eastern Europe and Asia.
This part is rather interesting don't you think?
"Most of the Vandals went to Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa in the Kabyl land in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers."
Yes it is. It could explain some of the blond traits in the Kabyle. But that wouldn't be from barbary saves. Here this is something you would like to see but I would take it with a grain of salt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH2UfdSkHV0
Riffians are a bit different Kabyle
Dr Anna Leone, PhD, Durham University.
Senior Lecturer in the Department of Archaeology
-Member of the Centre for the Study of the Ancient -Mediterranean and the Near East -Member of the Durham Centre for Roman Culture -Member of the Institute of Medieval and Renaissance
I have been working for a long time and published several articles on Roman pottery in Rome, Italy and North Africa. I have a good knowledge of all the classes of pottery that circulated in the Mediterranean from the Republican period to the 7th/8th century AD and beyond
The period in question from AD 300 to AD 700, spans more that political transitions: it sees the adoption of Christianity (during the Las Imperial period and the Byzantine times), the Vandal rule and the adoption of Arianism and the Arab/Muslim imposition.Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Whether Kabyle came from North Europe or have relative high dosage of North European add-mixture. Is open for debate. Fact is, however. Vandals came from Germany, linked to North Europeans from where they do originate. The genepool is evidence of this.
The Vandals settled in Tunisia. They were mostly wiped out. But I have read that some did marry in with the native population. But this is in specific areas. The Vandals didn't spend a great deal of time in other parts of North Africa to leave a significant imprint except in Tunisia, in the area around Carthage.
"Who" wiped them out "mostly", and when?
What happened to their remains and culture? And how long have they been there, before they got "wiped out mostly"?
They were in Northern Tunisia for nearly a hundred years where they were constantly trying to stage attacks against Rome. The Byzantines finally defeated them and took over that part of North Africa. As to what happened to them after that. Here is what I found.
"..in 534 Gelimer surrendered to the Roman conqueror, ending the Kingdom of the Vandals. North Africa (which is north Tunisia and eastern Algeria at the period of the vandal) became a Roman province again, from which the Vandals were expelled. Most of the Vandals went to Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa in the Kabyl land in north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers. Some other were put into imperial service or fled to the two Gothic kingdoms (Ostrogothic Kingdom and Visigothic kingdom), some vandal women married Byzantine soldiers settled in north Algeria and Tunisia. The choicest Vandal warriors were formed into five cavalry regiments, known as Vandali Iustiniani, and stationed on the Persian frontier. Some entered the private service of Belisarius" Bury, John Bagnell (1923), History of the Later Roman Empire, from the Death of Theodosius I to the Death of Justinian (A.D.395 to A.D. 565). Volume II
I did not know the part about them settling in Kabyle land. That could explain some things then.
you were responding to posts about Vandals in Kabylia on the other posting about "Caucasian Berbers" and now you are claiming you didn't know.
Hmmmm.... now I'm confused.
I don't get it. Where do you think Procopius was talking about in Mauretania when he said the Vandals became an exceedingly numerous people?!
Ancient History Sourcebook: Procopius of Caesarea: Gaiseric & The Vandal Conquest of North Africa, 406 - 477 CE
"...as much of the land as did not seem to him good he allowed to remain in the hands of the former owners, but assessed so large a sum to be paid on this land for taxes to the government that nothing whatever remained to those who retained their farms. And many of them were constantly being sent into exile or killed. For charges were brought against them of many sorts, and heavy ones too; but one charge seemed to be the greatest of all, that a man, having money of his own, was hiding it. Thus the Libyans were visited with every form of misfortune.
The Vandals and the Alans he arranged in companies, appointing over them no less than eighty captains, whom he called "chiliarchs" [i.e., "leaders of a thousand"], making it appear that his host of fighting men in active service amounted to eighty thousand. And yet the number of the Vandals and Alans was said in former times, at least, to amount to no more than fifty thousand men. However, AFTER THAT TIME BY THEIR NATURAL INCREASE AMONG THEMSELVES AND BY ASSOCIATED OTHER BARBARIANS WITH THEM THEY CAME TO BEN AN EXCEEDINGLY NUMEROUS PEOPLE. But the names of the Alans and all the other barbarians, except the Mauretanii, were united in the name of Vandals. At that time, after the death of Valentinian, Gaiseric gained the support of the Mauretanii, and every year at the beginning of spring he made invasions into Sicily and Italy, enslaving some of the cities, razing others to the ground, and plundering everything; and when the land had become destitute of men and of money, he invaded the domain of the emperor of the East..."
Did I miss something?!
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Troll patrol
[
First, my question is still not answered: why aren't the "population genetic studies" acknowledging and mentioning the historical recorded fact that european female slaves have been taken to North Africa. By Moors, Arabs and Turks. Why you keep dancing around this question for many months now?
Second, the "so called article", is not an article but a line from a book. By someone who knows, unlike you. It says not all of the black/ dark skinned are descendants of slaves. It did not state some or a few. This is something you just made up yourself.
Don't get snooty with me son. This is what it says about Blacks in Morocco.
"Not all blacks in Morocco were slaves that originated from black West Africa. Some blacks were actually native to southern Morocco. Some sources suggest that groups of black people were indigenous of the Draa valley. They were sedentary agriculturists. With the advance of the Romans into the Moroccan interior in the 3rd century B.C.E., the Berbers, who inhabited the coastal areas of the Maghreb of North Africa, may have been forced to move towards the south and competed with the blacks inhabitants in the oases of the Draa, entering into an interdependent or clientele relationship with the Blacks, with the Berbers assuming the patron role"
And you likely first saw this citation form me. I posted it on Egyptsearch about six months ago in a debate Sundjata. The Draa valley is a small place far in the south of Morocco. As you can see the implication is that Blacks have always been a minority in Morocco. I can post more on this if you like.
What are the studies that don't aknowledge that there were European slaves in North africa? And it wasn't just female slaves but male slaves as well. This from Wikipedia.
"After the Muslim conquest, the Berber tribes of coastal North Africa became almost fully Arabized. Besides the Arab influence, North African population also saw an influx via the Barbary Slave Trade of European peoples, with some estimates placing the number of European slaves brought to North Africa during the Ottoman period as high as 1.25 million.[23] Interactions with neighboring Sudanic empires, traders and nomads from other parts of Africa also left impressions upon the Berber people"
Still the slaves likely didn't go to the Berbers bu to the Arabs.
Son? Are you retarded or something? lol
And no, I did not see any citation months ago?lol
*So my question is again, from where does the genetic male component in Berbers come? Did it come from the South? lol
-And the "suggestions" by those "scholars" are overwhelming! What they need to do is stop suggesting, if they don't know. lol
Now, stop twisting words and aswer my questions. Why don't we see mention of european slaves in genetic studies. As I posted above. Stop dancing around the question, please.
Now, again from where did these groups like the Byzantines and Romans, Mamluk and Saqaliba come as mentioned before in the previous post, and what is their gene pool? Did these people bring along cultures and tradition, into North Africa? And are these still detectable?
I noticed your pertinent question of european slaves in genetic studies was basically ignored, Troll patrol. lol!
The reason they can't answer you is because they are too busy trying to make it into paleolithic "Caucasian" dna in North Africa. Spaniards like Nicole Maca Meyer take their samples from Meknes and other places historically documented as having been inundated by European slaves and concubines.
Because like the Euronuts on this site they are not interested in true history but putting themselves into the place of people they think have no business being black. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Troll patrol
[
First, my question is still not answered: why aren't the "population genetic studies" acknowledging and mentioning the historical recorded fact that european female slaves have been taken to North Africa. By Moors, Arabs and Turks. Why you keep dancing around this question for many months now?
Second, the "so called article", is not an article but a line from a book. By someone who knows, unlike you. It says not all of the black/ dark skinned are descendants of slaves. It did not state some or a few. This is something you just made up yourself.
Don't get snooty with me son. This is what it says about Blacks in Morocco.
"Not all blacks in Morocco were slaves that originated from black West Africa. Some blacks were actually native to southern Morocco. Some sources suggest that groups of black people were indigenous of the Draa valley. They were sedentary agriculturists. With the advance of the Romans into the Moroccan interior in the 3rd century B.C.E., the Berbers, who inhabited the coastal areas of the Maghreb of North Africa, may have been forced to move towards the south and competed with the blacks inhabitants in the oases of the Draa, entering into an interdependent or clientele relationship with the Blacks, with the Berbers assuming the patron role"
And you likely first saw this citation form me. I posted it on Egyptsearch about six months ago in a debate Sundjata. The Draa valley is a small place far in the south of Morocco. As you can see the implication is that Blacks have always been a minority in Morocco. I can post more on this if you like.
What are the studies that don't aknowledge that there were European slaves in North africa? And it wasn't just female slaves but male slaves as well. This from Wikipedia.
"After the Muslim conquest, the Berber tribes of coastal North Africa became almost fully Arabized. Besides the Arab influence, North African population also saw an influx via the Barbary Slave Trade of European peoples, with some estimates placing the number of European slaves brought to North Africa during the Ottoman period as high as 1.25 million.[23] Interactions with neighboring Sudanic empires, traders and nomads from other parts of Africa also left impressions upon the Berber people"
Still the slaves likely didn't go to the Berbers bu to the Arabs.
Son? Are you retarded or something? lol
And no, I did not see any citation months ago?lol
*So my question is again, from where does the genetic male component in Berbers come? Did it come from the South? lol
-And the "suggestions" by those "scholars" are overwhelming! What they need to do is stop suggesting, if they don't know. lol
Now, stop twisting words and aswer my questions. Why don't we see mention of european slaves in genetic studies. As I posted above. Stop dancing around the question, please.
Now, again from where did these groups like the Byzantines and Romans, Mamluk and Saqaliba come as mentioned before in the previous post, and what is their gene pool? Did these people bring along cultures and tradition, into North Africa? And are these still detectable?
I noticed your pertinent question of european slaves in genetic studies was basically ignored, Troll patrol. lol!
The reason they can't answer you is because they are too busy trying to make it into paleolithic "Caucasian" dna in North Africa. Spaniards like Nicole Maca Meyer take their samples from Meknes and other places historically documented as having been inundated by European slaves and concubines.
Because like the Euronuts on this site they are not interested in true history but putting themselves into the place of people they think have no business being black.
I am looking for info on European slaves in North Africa, Morocco. A place called Illigh. This was one of the places a lot of European slave were taken at.
Do you have anything on this subject, in particular?
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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"Barbary pirates in Ireland: The Sack of Baltimore, Co. Cork Print
The harbour side village of Baltimore in the south-west of Ireland is a favourite port of call for fishermen and yachtsmen because of its sheltered position behind Sherkin Island. Its location is of great interest to the artist, antiquary and naturalist. In McCarthy’s, one of its quayside pubs, a wall chart testifies to the marine mayhem that took place over the centuries in nearby Roaringwater Bay.
Situated in the barony of Carberry, in South Munster, the village grew up round a sixteenth century Castle of 0’Driscoll and, after his ruin, the place was colonized by the English. Around 1600 a defeat was inflicted on these local warlords when “several ships of the 0’Driscoll fleet sank in an affray with a fleet from Waterford” within sight of the 0’Driscoll stronghold towering above the village. In 1620 a Spanish galleon was sunk offshore.
Baltimore saga
A much stranger misfortune befell in 1631 when pirates from Algiers and armed troops of the Turkish Ottoman Empire stormed ashore at the little harbour village of Baltimore. In an era when it was common place for white traders from England to land on the African coast and to seize black people as slaves, this was one of the comparatively rare occasions when the boot was on the other foot.
A massacre took place when two Algerian galleys landed in the dead of night, sacked the town and bore off into slavery mostly women and children: altogether fifty youngsters ‘even those in the cradle’ were abducted, along with thirty-four women and nearly two dozen men, principally the descendants of dissenting and peaceful Protestant settlers from Cornwall, Somerset and Devon.
The invasion left King Charles I (reign 1625-49) incandescent with rage and provoked him into a reaction extreme enough to help create a revolution in England. Recognised at the time as an unprecedented act of aggression by the Islamist empire, Des Ekin’s recent book, The Stolen Village, is described as … a fascinating exploration of a forgotten chapter of British and European history.
The Sack of Baltimore
In 1631 a particularly brazen Barbary corsair was operating from Sallee on the Atlantic coast of Morocco. A sea captain from Flanders, he had ‘turned Turk’ and taken the name Morat Rais. That year, with two ships, on the night of 20 June 1631 this corsair chieftain made a surprise raid on the Irish coastal village of Baltimore successfully kidnapping most of its population of men, women and children. Their fate was to be sold into slavery on the Barbary Coast of North Africa. A French missionary priest working in Algiers saw several of Morat’s Irish captives put up for auction. After that, very little more was heard of them.
The pirates were steered up the intricate channel by a Dungarvan fisherman whom they had taken at sea for the purpose. Two years later he was convicted and executed for the crime.
The Sack of Baltimore by Thomas Osborne Davis (1814-1845), Irish patriot, poet and politician, is a vivid description in poetry of the raid by Algerian pirates in 1631. Its verses are in a book of Davis’s Poems Dublin: published by James Duffy, 1846. Born in Mallow, Co. Cork, son of an army surgeon, Davis was educated at Trinity College Dublin and called to the bar in 1838. He became the unofficial leader of the Young Ireland movement and jointly founded the Irish newspaper Nation (1842). He died prematurely in Dublin from scarlet fever on 16 September 1845 aged thirty-one. His funeral was a major public event.
Journalist and writer, Des Ekin’s book The Stolen Village: Baltimore and the Barbary Pirates (pp.398) provides the wider historical, political and social context at the time of the raid with fascinating detail about what happened and what followed. From a variety of historical, academic, political, legal and social archives many of the pictures and written sources are recorded in original documents, reports and letters of the period; the personal reminiscences of slaves in Algiers; and some histories written during the Barbary era. Ekin’s book prints these lines of Davis’s poem (1844) conveying the panic and terror of the raid.
A stifled gasp! A dreamy noise, ‘The roof is in a flame!’ From out their beds, and to their doors, rush maid and sire and dame.
And meet, upon the threshold stone, the gleaming sabres fall, And over each black and bearded face the white and crimson shawl. The yell of ‘Allah’ breaks above the prayer and shriek and roar Oh, blessed God! The Algerine is Lord of Baltimore.
The prisoners were destined for a variety of fates - some would live out their days chained to the oars as galley slaves, while others would spend long years in the scented seclusion of the harem or within the walls of the Sultan’s palace. The old city of Algiers, with its narrow streets, intense heat and lively trade, was a melting pot where the villagers would join slaves and freemen of many nationalities. Only two of them ever saw Ireland again.
Tim Severin’s latest book Corsair: The Adventures of Hector Lynch (pp. 346) is about the fictional adventures of a seventeen year old boy who, with his sister, was snatched from an Irish village by Barbary corsairs and sold at auction in Algiers. Befriended by fellow captive Dan, a Miskito Indian from the Caribbean, he finds himself in a bewildering world where life is cheap and only the quick-witted survive. The book traces Hector’s search to find his long lost sister.
The story introduces a cast of ferocious historical characters, including pickpockets and sadistic sea officers, venal merchants and cultured Turkish sea captains, a power-crazed sultan and fanatical member of the Knightly Orders. Their violent, treacherous and sometimes gallant deeds take place against a meticulously researched backdrop extending from the kasbahs of North Africa to the sands of the Sahara.
Historical Note
Barbary describes a region in North Africa stretching from Egypt to the Atlantic Ocean that is named after the Berbers. In ancient times it consisted of Mauritania, Numidia, Africa, Propria, and Cyrenaica. It was successively conquered by Romans, Vandals, Arabs, Turks, Spaniards, French, and Italians.
Between the sixteenth and eighteenth centuries, Barbary was notorious for its pirates who plagued the Mediterranean and its Atlantic approaches. Slavery in various guises was flourishing on all sides of the Mediterranean. Barbary corsairs thrived against a general background of the Eternal War between Cross and Crescent and struggles amongst European nations for power.
The Regencies of Tunis, Algiers and Tripoli were infamous in the Christian world as places where the unfortunate captives were either set to work or held for ransom. Yet there were also thriving slave markets in Malta and Livorno where Muslims - and sometimes non-Muslim as well - were bought and sold. The Knights of St John of Malta were at the forefront of the trade in much the same way that the corsair guilds in the Regencies, the taifas, were the chief providers of human merchandise in North Africa." http://divainternational.ch/spip.php?article249
White Gold: The Story
In the summer of 1716, a Cornish cabin boy named Thomas Pellow and fifty-one comrades were captured at sea by the Barbary corsairs.
Their captors - Captain Ali Hakem and his network of fanatical Islamic slave traders - had declared war on the whole of Christendom. Thousands of Europeans had been snatched from their homes and taken in chains to the great slave markets of Algiers, Tunis and Sale in Morocco. Poked, prodded and put through their paces, they were sold at auction to the highest bidder.
Pellow and his ship-mates were bought by the tyrannical sultan of Morocco, Moulay Ismail. He was constructing the largest imperial pleasure palace in the world. It was being built entirely by Christian slave labour.
Thomas Pellow was to find himself a personal slave of the sultan. He would witness first-hand the barbaric splendour of the imperial court, as well as experience daily terror. For twenty-three years, he would dream of his home, his family and freedom. He was one of the fortunate few who survived to tell his tale.
A letter from English slave, Robert Adams, circa 1620.
'Lovinge and kind father and mother... I am here in Salley [a Moroccan port] in most miserable captivitye, under the hands of most cruell tyrants... [I] worke at a mill like a horse, from morninge untill night, with chaines uppon my legges, of 36 pounds waights a peece.' "
The history of European slaves is not as obsure as you would like to think. We have many documents, survivors, memoirs, correspondance etc.
Andeverything so far has European slaves going to to the major cities, not to remote Berber villages.
-------------------- In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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Berbers came down from the mountains tto retrieve their white concubines just as the old texts including National Geographic said they did. And just like they do today in Morocco.
Nice try though.
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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^ LOL Notice that Malcontent desperately tries to evade from the FACT that most Berbers especially in coastal areas look 'mulatto' for a reason. He desperately attributes this reason to black slaves as if the original Berbers were white. LOL
Yet who is aboriginal and who his a newcomer? Does the fool really believe whites are aboriginal to Africa??
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26307 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ LOL Notice that Malcontent desperately tries to evade from the FACT that most Berbers especially in coastal areas look 'mulatto' for a reason. He desperately attributes this reason to black slaves as if the original Berbers were white. LOL
Yet who is aboriginal and who his a newcomer? Does the fool really believe whites are aboriginal to Africa??
I don't know about the term "Whites" jackass. But many anthropologist believe that folks from the Near East settled into North Africa 20,000 years ago. And Some Europeans crossed over during the Late Glacial Maximum. These people would have lived in the coastal areas. What, did your retarded ass think Africa was sealed off from the rest of the world or what?? Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Berbers came down from the mountains tto retrieve their white concubines just as the old texts including National Geographic said they did. And just like they do today in Morocco.
Nice try though.
Why don't you post those texts then? And better yet bring them to Topix since you have now starting posting there.
Also do you realize the amount of White slaves it would take to transform Black Berbers into people who look like this??
That means that generations of mofos had to abandon their own Black women for White booty. I don't buy that crap and neither do you. And how did these Berber peasants compete with the wealthy pashas in the city who were constantly looking to fill their harems? Moreover if the Berbers absorbed so many Europeans women, there should be some European cultural and linguistic survivals, passed on from the mothers to their children, no? And again most of the Slaves were caught off the Mediterranean coasts of Spain, France and Italy. Yet the tendency of some Berber groups toward fair traits is greater than any Southern European nation!!
Also we were debating about the Guanche who were related to ancient North Africans and you said more or the less that the descriptions of the now extinct Guanche having fair traits was bogus. Well I found a picture of the remains of a Guanche skull for your edification.
Interesting isn't it?
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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Yes it's interesting how ignorance can gain a complete hold of someone. You don't realize that mitochondrial diversity among Berbers is great and European ones aren't the only ones found so it wasn't like black men took up white women as mates only. There is also something called founder-effect that happens in some gene pools so quit with the lies.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26307 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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You don't realize that mitochondrial diversity among Berbers is great and European ones aren't the only ones
Which means they haven't been taking in so many European women after all.
The founder effect? The founder effect is the loss of genetic variation that occurs when a new population is established by a very small number of individuals from a larger population. Can you tell me where this happened in North Africa in recent times?
-------------------- In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Which means they haven't been taking in so many European women after all.
Yes they have in certain areas, especially in the northwestern most parts you nitwit!
quote:The founder effect? The founder effect is the loss of genetic variation that occurs when a new population is established by a very small number of individuals from a larger population. Can you tell me where this happened in North Africa in recent times?
How about I direct you to this old thread here. Scroll down to what Rasol says. Also look here.
Posts: 26307 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: All I know is that the painting comes from the XIX dynasty which is the period commonly cited as the era of the fair-skinned Berbers.
Notice, not the Libyans but the two central figures. The skin color of them is jet black
The color of the belt/strap that goes around their waste, across their chest and hangs down is
dark brown __________________________________________________________
^^^Libyan
tomb of Rameses
Again look to the figure second from left for color reference. The skin color, black. The belt/strap is brown The Libyan at far left is not the same color or as dark as that belt/strap
Libyan Mummy, 6000 years old
Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Which means they haven't been taking in so many European women after all.
Yes they have in certain areas, especially in the northwestern most parts you nitwit!
quote:The founder effect? The founder effect is the loss of genetic variation that occurs when a new population is established by a very small number of individuals from a larger population. Can you tell me where this happened in North Africa in recent times?
How about I direct you to this old thread here. Scroll down to what Rasol says. Also look here.
I don't see where Rasol talks about a founder effect resulting in Berbers with light features.
"However, what you cannot explain is their language. If the Berbers speak Afro-Asiatic then at some point in time, regardless of their current phenotype, the founder group was East African and recently; depending on similarities. If they were original Caucasian people (like Europeans) then why don't they speak Latin or at least some form of Sanscript."
Is this what you are talking about? He expects them to speak Latin or Sanscrit. LMAO! how ignorant.
And I have argued at length with that racist the Explorer who refuses to beleive that any Europeans entered North Africa before histroic times. We went over the liklihood of light Berber traits being the result of recent slavery. He refuses to concede anything. I posted historical documents, descriptions.. even various studies on the age of Eurasian mtdna etc and the guy has the audacity to say the studies are all wrong. He knows more then they do. Lol! The guy believes that R originates in Africa.. Bwaaa haaa ha ha ha!
Basil is Saying that they have hairstyles like the Fulani people
____^^^^^don't smoke reefer when stepping to the lioness
to say that the Tassili Ladies are not wearing hats or headgear of some sort, to say that these are Fulani hairstyles is complete speculation on Mr. Djehuti's part. In my opinion it's wrong.
There is no expert on Algerian rock art who has said the Tassili Ladies have a Fulani hairstyle or even that their hair is what is represented by those shapes. It's wrong they are headgear not hats and their color matches colors on their capes. How many times have I told you check what Djehuti says, he makes up stuff.
They look entirely fake.
lol!
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Which means they haven't been taking in so many European women after all.
Yes they have in certain areas, especially in the northwestern most parts you nitwit!
quote:The founder effect? The founder effect is the loss of genetic variation that occurs when a new population is established by a very small number of individuals from a larger population. Can you tell me where this happened in North Africa in recent times?
How about I direct you to this old thread here. Scroll down to what Rasol says. Also look here.
I don't see where Rasol talks about a founder effect resulting in Berbers with light features.
"However, what you cannot explain is their language. If the Berbers speak Afro-Asiatic then at some point in time, regardless of their current phenotype, the founder group was East African and recently; depending on similarities. If they were original Caucasian people (like Europeans) then why don't they speak Latin or at least some form of Sanscript."
Is this what you are talking about? He expects them to speak Latin or Sanscrit. LMAO! how ignorant.
And I have argued at length with that racist the Explorer who refuses to beleive that any Europeans entered North Africa before histroic times. We went over the liklihood of light Berber traits being the result of recent slavery. He refuses to concede anything. I posted historical documents, descriptions.. even various studies on the age of Eurasian mtdna etc and the guy has the audacity to say the studies are all wrong. He knows more then they do. Lol! The guy believes that R originates in Africa.. Bwaaa haaa ha ha ha!
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti:
Libyan Mummy, 6000 years old
So says the Broomhilda searchforum lol! Lets see the 2011 or even less recent paper on that one. I sure as heck can't find one. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Berbers came down from the mountains tto retrieve their white concubines just as the old texts including National Geographic said they did. And just like they do today in Morocco.
Nice try though.
Why don't you post those texts then? And better yet bring them to Topix since you have now starting posting there.
Also do you realize the amount of White slaves it would take to transform Black Berbers into people who look like this??
That means that generations of mofos had to abandon their own Black women for White booty. I don't buy that crap and neither do you. And how did these Berber peasants compete with the wealthy pashas in the city who were constantly looking to fill their harems? Moreover if the Berbers absorbed so many Europeans women, there should be some European cultural and linguistic survivals, passed on from the mothers to their children, no? And again most of the Slaves were caught off the Mediterranean coasts of Spain, France and Italy. Yet the tendency of some Berber groups toward fair traits is greater than any Southern European nation!!
Also we were debating about the Guanche who were related to ancient North Africans and you said more or the less that the descriptions of the now extinct Guanche having fair traits was bogus. Well I found a picture of the remains of a Guanche skull for your edification.
Interesting isn't it?
Its not me thaat's saying those people have a lot of Berber in them Melchior that you and some of the compromisers on this forum that don't care to look into AFrican history.
I will post this. AGAIN!
Robert Brown, the late 19th century translator and commenter of Leo Africanus’s voluminous work on Africa remarked on this diversity in stating, “The many European races, including the Vandals under Genseric, and the ENDLESS EUROPEAN SLAVES who, turning renegade, became absorbed into the population must have left their mark over the all the Barbary states” Brown, R. . A History and Description of Africa: and of the notable things therein contained; Cambridge University Press. 2010 edition
No one is saying all of the slaves brought into North Africa from Europe were women either. As you have already mentioned there were plenty of European mercenaries and corsairs after the 15th century as well.
And that is leaving out the many 10,000s of slave soldiers who made up the bulk of the slave soldiers in the Islamic world from the east European Turks and Slavs who have long ago turned "Turk" (Muslim).
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Berbers came down from the mountains tto retrieve their white concubines just as the old texts including National Geographic said they did. And just like they do today in Morocco.
Nice try though.
Why don't you post those texts then? And better yet bring them to Topix since you have now starting posting there.
Also do you realize the amount of White slaves it would take to transform Black Berbers into people who look like this??
That means that generations of mofos had to abandon their own Black women for White booty. I don't buy that crap and neither do you. And how did these Berber peasants compete with the wealthy pashas in the city who were constantly looking to fill their harems? Moreover if the Berbers absorbed so many Europeans women, there should be some European cultural and linguistic survivals, passed on from the mothers to their children, no? And again most of the Slaves were caught off the Mediterranean coasts of Spain, France and Italy. Yet the tendency of some Berber groups toward fair traits is greater than any Southern European nation!!
Also we were debating about the Guanche who were related to ancient North Africans and you said more or the less that the descriptions of the now extinct Guanche having fair traits was bogus. Well I found a picture of the remains of a Guanche skull for your edification.
Interesting isn't it?
You also need to go now and look up who settled North Africa and when. Cause I'm not doing anymore Euronut work any more.
They aren't the only peoples who settled the Canary Islands and certainly nowhere near the earliest.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Berbers came down from the mountains tto retrieve their white concubines just as the old texts including National Geographic said they did. And just like they do today in Morocco.
Nice try though.
Why don't you post those texts then? And better yet bring them to Topix since you have now starting posting there.
Also do you realize the amount of White slaves it would take to transform Black Berbers into people who look like this??
That means that generations of mofos had to abandon their own Black women for White booty. I don't buy that crap and neither do you. And how did these Berber peasants compete with the wealthy pashas in the city who were constantly looking to fill their harems? Moreover if the Berbers absorbed so many Europeans women, there should be some European cultural and linguistic survivals, passed on from the mothers to their children, no? And again most of the Slaves were caught off the Mediterranean coasts of Spain, France and Italy. Yet the tendency of some Berber groups toward fair traits is greater than any Southern European nation!!
Also we were debating about the Guanche who were related to ancient North Africans and you said more or the less that the descriptions of the now extinct Guanche having fair traits was bogus. Well I found a picture of the remains of a Guanche skull for your edification.
Interesting isn't it?
You also need to go now and look up who settled North Africa and when. Cause I'm not doing anymore Euronut's work .
They aren't the only peoples who settled the Canary Islands and certainly are nowhere near the earliest.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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^^^ Yes,, Dana I read somewhere that blacks were also present on the canary Islands with others except I cant find any info on this but I know for a fact I read it.
Its simply something Mathilda wont talk about.
Posts: 8806 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: All I know is that the painting comes from the XIX dynasty which is the period commonly cited as the era of the fair-skinned Berbers.
Above are a set of three photo details that nobody disputes it showing an actual section of a wall in the tomb of Ramesses III (KV11)
For color reference in this painting look at the two figures in the center panel. The color of the belt/strap that goes around their waists, across their chest and hangs down is
dark brown
Now referring to the two figures at the far right labeled "Libyan" dana or somebody else please post a photo of a modern person from North Africa you feel could a possibility of someone or several people that you feel might resemble these two figures marked "Libyan" above.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Berbers came down from the mountains tto retrieve their white concubines just as the old texts including National Geographic said they did. And just like they do today in Morocco.
Nice try though.
Why don't you post those texts then? And better yet bring them to Topix since you have now starting posting there.
Also do you realize the amount of White slaves it would take to transform Black Berbers into people who look like this??
That means that generations of mofos had to abandon their own Black women for White booty. I don't buy that crap and neither do you. And how did these Berber peasants compete with the wealthy pashas in the city who were constantly looking to fill their harems? Moreover if the Berbers absorbed so many Europeans women, there should be some European cultural and linguistic survivals, passed on from the mothers to their children, no? And again most of the Slaves were caught off the Mediterranean coasts of Spain, France and Italy. Yet the tendency of some Berber groups toward fair traits is greater than any Southern European nation!!
Also we were debating about the Guanche who were related to ancient North Africans and you said more or the less that the descriptions of the now extinct Guanche having fair traits was bogus. Well I found a picture of the remains of a Guanche skull for your edification.
Interesting isn't it?
You also need to go now and look up who settled North Africa and when. Cause I'm not doing anymore Euronut's work .
They aren't the only peoples who settled the Canary Islands and certainly are nowhere near the earliest.
Ancient mtDNA analysis and the origin of the Guanches.
Nicole Maca-Meyer, Matilde Arnay, Juan Carlos Rando, Carlos Flores, Ana M González, Vicente M Cabrera and José M Larruga Eur J Hum Genet 12(2):155-62 (2004) PMID 14508507
The prehistoric colonisation of the Canary Islands by the Guanches (native Canarians) woke up great expectation about their origin, since the Europeans conquest of the Archipelago. Here, we report mitochondrial DNA analysis (HVRI sequences and RFLPs) of aborigine remains around 1000 years old. The sequences retrieved show that the Guanches possessed U6b1 lineages that are in the present day Canarian population, but not in Africans. In turn, U6b, the phylogenetically closest ancestor found in Africa, is not present in the Canary Islands. Comparisons with other populations relate the Guanches with the actual inhabitants of the Archipelago and with Moroccan Berbers. This shows that, despite the continuous changes suffered by the population (Spanish colonisation, slave trade), aboriginal mtDNA lineages constitute a considerable proportion of the Canarian gene pool. Although the Berbers are the most probable ancestors of the Guanches, it is deduced that important human movements have reshaped Northwest Africa after the migratory wave to the Canary Islands.
"This shows that, despite the continuous changes suffered by the population (Spanish colonisation, slave trade)"
"Furthermore, after the Conquest, the need of labour led to the introduction of slaves from the Northwest African coast..With time, these slaves were freed and integrated into the island population"
"With time, these slaves were freed and integrated into the island population"!
C. Loring Brace et al. University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI, November 11, 2005
When the Basques are run with the other samples used in Fig. 1, they link with Germany and more remotely with the Canary Islands. They are clearly European, although the length of their twig indicates that they have a distinction all their own.
It is clear, however, that they do not represent a survival of the kind of craniofacial form indicated by Cro-Magnon any more than do the Canary Islanders, nor does either sample tie in with the Berbers of North Africa as has previously been claimed (37, 44-45). …
It all came from Alfred Rosenberg, Von Schlegel and Blavatsky with their Atlantic fantasies.
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Some six decades before Columbus set out for the new world, Pope Eugene IV condemned the enslavement of black natives from the Canary Islands. This 1435 papal command demanded the European slave-masters to release them within 15 days or face the weight of excommunication from the Church.
Juan de Bethencourt became the first European to settle in the Canary Islands and made slaves of several natives heralding the beginning of the black slave trade. At this time slavery had been practically eliminated in Europe, thanks to the influence of the Church. The Holy Roman Church later would not only condone and support slavery even of those baptized into the Roman Catholic Church but also would hold their own slaves. Europe, led by Spain, would begin over four centuries of slave trading that included some twenty million Africans alone, of which half died in transit. Jewish children deported from Portugal during the Inquisition settle Sao Tome e Principe, two islands 320 kilometers west of Gabon. It then became a transit point for the slave trade. Pope John Paul II (1978 - ) in 1992 deplored the Roman Catholic Church's condoning of that sad offense to human dignity.Posts: 8806 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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In the interest of a watertight proof text do the words "Black Natives from the Canary Islands" actually appear in the original language of the document or the assumption of a modern writer inserting the misconception that enslaved Africans must have been black as a header for the translated Sicut Dudum?
Anyway ... Contrary to the idea the Canarians were all blond whites, George Glas' 1764 translation of an older Spanish document says they were darker the people of southern Spain and their hair was black and bushy. I use Canarians instead of Guanches because only the people of northern Tenerife are the Guanches and only this small subset were light in colour.
Juan de Abreu de Galindo, trans George Glas The History of the Discovery and Conquest of the Canary Islands Palmas, 1632 London, 1764 pp.281-282
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Some six decades before Columbus set out for the new world, Pope Eugene IV condemned the enslavement of black natives from the Canary Islands. This 1435 papal command demanded the European slave-masters to release them within 15 days or face the weight of excommunication from the Church.
Juan de Bethencourt became the first European to settle in the Canary Islands and made slaves of several natives heralding the beginning of the black slave trade. At this time slavery had been practically eliminated in Europe, thanks to the influence of the Church. The Holy Roman Church later would not only condone and support slavery even of those baptized into the Roman Catholic Church but also would hold their own slaves. Europe, led by Spain, would begin over four centuries of slave trading that included some twenty million Africans alone, of which half died in transit. Jewish children deported from Portugal during the Inquisition settle Sao Tome e Principe, two islands 320 kilometers west of Gabon. It then became a transit point for the slave trade. Pope John Paul II (1978 - ) in 1992 deplored the Roman Catholic Church's condoning of that sad offense to human dignity.
Thanks for adding another piece of the puzzle.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: In the interest of a watertight proof text do the words "Black Natives from the Canary Islands" actually appear in the original language of the document or the assumption of a modern writer inserting the misconception that enslaved Africans must have been black as a header for the translated Sicut Dudum?
Anyway ... Contrary to the idea the Canarians were all blond whites, George Glas' 1764 translation of an older Spanish document says they were darker the people of southern Spain and their hair was black and bushy. I use Canarians instead of Guanches because only the people of northern Tenerife are the Guanches and only this small subset were light in colour.
Juan de Abreu de Galindo, trans George Glas The History of the Discovery and Conquest of the Canary Islands Palmas, 1632 London, 1764 pp.281-282
Thanks for sharing this highly interesting documented part.
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
^^^ I believe some of the Natives of the Canaries were also described as having brown skin.
In the interest of a watertight proof text do the words "Black Natives from the Canary Islands" actually appear in the original language of the document or the assumption of a modern writer inserting the misconception that enslaved Africans must have been black as a header for the translated Sicut Dudum?
That could very well be the case, a modern misconception. I however do believe there were blacks in the Canary Islands, although Info on that is scarce seeing as how Blond Guanches and other Atlantis non sense dominates any discussion about the Canary Natives.
That Blond Guanche Mummy is suspect...considering that this mummy once looked like this..
Is in reality this..
You can clearly see the Frizzy hair which fits with the descriptions given in the book Al posted..
Is it not odd that so many Mummies spanning the globe have light colored Blond and Reddish hair..I remember a coule years ago White Suprimists claiming that there were "Celtic" Mummies in China as their proof that the Celts built or brought in Chinese Civilization. Their proof was the Red Hair on the Mummies. Yet Red Hair is a rare color how is it that this hair is found in Peru, China, Egypt etc. Obviously its the result of the preservation.
posted
In the interest of a watertight proof text do thewords "Black Natives from the Canary Islands" actually appear in the original language of the document or the assumption of a modern writer inserting the misconception that enslaved Africans must have been black as a header for the translated Sicut Dudum?
Good question. I heard about the Spanish selling Canary Islanders as slaves in Spain but never heard that they were Blacks. That certianly doesn't fit the discription of how the Spanish described the Canarians. Some could have been Black or darker skinned however as there seems to have been distintions among people from the different Islands. The folks from Tenerife being the taller fairer sort.
-------------------- In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^ I believe some of the Natives of the Canaries were also described as having brown skin.
In the interest of a watertight proof text do the words "Black Natives from the Canary Islands" actually appear in the original language of the document or the assumption of a modern writer inserting the misconception that enslaved Africans must have been black as a header for the translated Sicut Dudum?
That could very well be the case, a modern misconception. I however do believe there were blacks in the Canary Islands, although Info on that is scarce seeing as how Blond Guanches and other Atlantis non sense dominates any discussion about the Canary Natives.
That Blond Guanche Mummy is suspect...considering that this mummy once looked like this..
Is in reality this..
You can clearly see the Frizzy hair which fits with the descriptions given in the book Al posted..
Is it not odd that so many Mummies spanning the globe have light colored Blond and Reddish hair..I remember a coule years ago White Suprimists claiming that there were "Celtic" Mummies in China as their proof that the Celts built or brought in Chinese Civilization. Their proof was the Red Hair on the Mummies. Yet Red Hair is a rare color how is it that this hair is found in Peru, China, Egypt etc. Obviously its the result of the preservation.
Your mummy has curly hair this is clear in both pictures. My mummies hair was not red or curly. With regard to the Peruvians and Chinese etc. I have heard that some of Spanish did report seeing Idnians with Red Hair and fair skin in the Andes.
"The conquistador, Pedro Pizarro, reported in his account of the great Spanish invasion of South America in the 1500s, that while the masses of Andes Indians were small and dark, the members of the ruling Inca family were tall and had whiter skins than the Spaniards themselves. He mentions in particular certain individuals in present day Peru who were White and had red hair."(Heyerdahl, page 351).
I have no idea why this was so. But I believe they were still indigenous.
Also the were the Indo European Tocharins who migrated to China. But they were not Celts.
"The Tocharians were the Tocharian-speaking inhabitants of the Tarim Basin, making them the easternmost speakers of Indo-European languages in antiquity. They were known as, or at least closely related to, the Yuezhi of Chinese sources.[1][2] After wars against the northern Xiongnu, the Tocharians migrated out of the Tarim Basin, and the Indo-European language of the Tocharians became supplanted by the Turkic languages of the Uighur tribes about 800 CE." Some of those mummies are probably Tocharian.
But the idea that they brought civilization to China is absurd. China's civilization began thousands of years ago. And these mummies are in the extreme west of China were the Uyghur peoples live.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: In the interest of a watertight proof text do thewords "Black Natives from the Canary Islands" actually appear in the original language of the document or the assumption of a modern writer inserting the misconception that enslaved Africans must have been black as a header for the translated Sicut Dudum?
Good question. I heard about the Spanish selling Canary Islanders as slaves in Spain but never heard that they were Blacks. That certianly doesn't fit the discription of how the Spanish described the Canarians. Some could have been Black or darker skinned however as there seems to have been distintions among people from the different Islands. The folks from Tenerife being the taller fairer sort.
Neither does it fit the description by: Alfred Rosenberg, Von Schlegel and Blavatsky and their Atlantic fantasies.
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: I don't see where Rasol talks about a founder effect resulting in Berbers with light features.
Where did I say anything about light features?? I'm talking about founder effect in terms of Y lineages.
quote:Rasol wrote: ** E3b appears to be confined mostly to the sub-Saharan populations, it is conceivable that the initial migrations toward North Africa from the south primarily involved derivative E3b-M35 lineages.
They are saying that E3b, diveraged in the horn of Africa into E3b1,2 and 3.
These downstream lineages and peoples then spread into North Africa and across the Levant.
They are very explicit on the details and paths the different lineages took from the horn/sub-sahara into NorthEast, NorthWest Africa, and Eurasia.
*** These include E3b1-M78, a haplogroup especially common in Ethiopia (23%), and, perhaps, E3b2-M123 (2%), which is present as well (Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2002; Semino et al. 2002). The data suggest that two later expansions may have followed: one eastward along the Levantine corridor into the Near East and the other toward northwestern Africa. The extant North African and Middle Eastern distribution (Underhill et al. 2001b; Cruciani et al. 2002; present study) of these lineages suggests that both routes are associated with the dissemination of E3b1-M78. However, the E3b3-M123 chromosomes may have spread predominantly toward the east, whereas E3b2-M81, which is present in relatively high levels in Morocco (33% and 69% in Moroccan Arabs and Moroccan Berbers, respectively [Cruciani et al. 2002]), dispersed mainly to the west.
Cruciani further date the mrca of the E3b2 haplogroup at 5.6 ky~, which is similar to its expansion date in Egypt.
However, in NorthWest Africa, per Cruciani:
The coalescence age of the E3b2 bearing chromosomes, estimated from the variation observed at the three microsatellite loci, was only 1,995 years.
Coalescence time measures the point of the common ancestor of a group of individuals.
The older the coalescence date the longer that population - defined in genetics as a group of interbreeding individuals - has existed.
From this Cruciani,2002 concludes:
Thus, both the age and the high frequency of the M81 haplotypes suggest that a [recent] demographic expansion has occurred in northwestern africa.
And that is what is referenced by Luis, et. al....
This proposal is in accordance with a population expansion involving E3b2-M81 believed to have occurred in northwestern Africa 2 ky ago (Cruciani et al. 2002).
The considerably older linear expansion estimate of the Egyptian E3b2-M81 (5.4 ky ago) is also compatible with this scenario.
Thus, they conclude, that the E3b2 lineage:
a) derived from E3b in the horn 5.6ky~ b) the current E3b2 population expanded in Egypt 5.4 ky~ c) the current NW african E3b2 population expanded 2ky~
The founder effect was in regards to the paternal lineage. The maternal lineages are diverse though.
quote:"However, what you cannot explain is their language. If the Berbers speak Afro-Asiatic then at some point in time, regardless of their current phenotype, the founder group was East African and recently; depending on similarities. If they were original Caucasian people (like Europeans) then why don't they speak Latin or at least some form of Sanscript."
Is this what you are talking about? He expects them to speak Latin or Sanscrit. LMAO! how ignorant.
What's ignorant is that you deny blacks as the truly indigenous people despite that Berber is an African language and there is no proof of any non-African language in the region. Yet you dismiss the black presence as recent slave immigrants. LOL
quote:And I have argued at length with that racist the Explorer who refuses to beleive that any Europeans entered North Africa before histroic times. We went over the liklihood of light Berber traits being the result of recent slavery. He refuses to concede anything. I posted historical documents, descriptions.. even various studies on the age of Eurasian mtdna etc and the guy has the audacity to say the studies are all wrong. He knows more then they do. Lol! The guy believes that R originates in Africa.. Bwaaa haaa ha ha ha!
LOL Yes Berber beauties of obvious foreign descent. Now what's so funny about R originating in Africa when there are a high percentage underived R* markers in rural areas of Cameroon but only a few outside of Africa? Has it not occurred to you that downstream R carriers in Eurasia inherited it from their African ancestors??
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