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Author Topic: Caucasian Berbers etc.
Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
There was a black population on the Canary Islands prior to the slave trade and European Invasions...

Mathilda won't talk about this will she??

Pope Eugene IV Against the Enslaving of Black Natives from the Canary Islands
January 13, 1435



http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Eugene04/eugene04sicut.htm


Some six decades before Columbus set out for the new world, Pope Eugene IV condemned the enslavement of black natives from the Canary Islands. This 1435 papal command demanded the European slave-masters to release them within 15 days or face the weight of excommunication from the Church.

http://fatherjoe.wordpress.com/instructions/other/catholicism-the-black-experience/

1402

Juan de Bethencourt became the first European to settle in the Canary Islands and made slaves of several natives heralding the beginning of the black slave trade. At this time slavery had been practically eliminated in Europe, thanks to the influence of the Church. The Holy Roman Church later would not only condone and support slavery even of those baptized into the Roman Catholic Church but also would hold their own slaves. Europe, led by Spain, would begin over four centuries of slave trading that included some twenty million Africans alone, of which half died in transit. Jewish children deported from Portugal during the Inquisition settle Sao Tome e Principe, two islands 320 kilometers west of Gabon. It then became a transit point for the slave trade. Pope John Paul II (1978 - ) in 1992 deplored the Roman Catholic Church's condoning of that sad offense to human dignity.

Thanks for adding another piece of the puzzle.


quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
In the interest of a watertight proof text do the
words "Black Natives from the Canary Islands"
actually appear in the original language of the
document or the assumption of a modern writer
inserting the misconception that enslaved Africans
must have been black as a header for the translated Sicut Dudum?

Anyway ...
Contrary to the idea the Canarians were all blond
whites, George Glas' 1764 translation of an older
Spanish document says they were darker the people
of southern Spain and their hair was black and bushy.
I use Canarians instead of Guanches because only
the people of northern Tenerife are the Guanches
and only this small subset were light in colour.

 -
 -


Juan de Abreu de Galindo
, trans George Glas
The History of the Discovery and Conquest of the Canary Islands

Palmas, 1632
London, 1764
pp.281-282

Thanks for sharing this highly interesting documented part.

Indeed. There goes the lie of white indigenes of the Canary Islands! [Big Grin]
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the lioness,
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19th century Canary Island people:

(from above book "f" s modernized to "s" s - lioness productions 2011):

All the lower fort of the people in thefe islands wear their own hair which is black and generally bushy; they let it grow to great length and when they dress, comb it out in such a manner that the fashion of wearing hair at present here seems to be the same as that which prevailed in England in the reign of King James I. They tuck the hair in the rights side of the head behind the ear.
__________________________________________________

ancient Roman period, Guanches

 -

The Museum of Nature and Man, opens the exhibition "The Guanches and the Sea: Fishing in the ancient world" from April 24 to June 28, 2009.

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anguishofbeing
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^ bitch you just got roasted, again.
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alTakruri
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
There goes the lie of white indigenes of the Canary Islands!

Yep, they took one set of people in the north
parts of Tenerife, the Gaunches, and magically
deceitfully made them into as if they were the
inhabitants of the entire chain of Canary Islands
though they were just an infinitesimal subset of the
Canarian peoples. I had no idea until coming across
this old book a few days ago. Before then I was down
with the okey doke.

The vast majority of white people only want to see
themselves, or something resembling themselves,
where ever they look be it modern mass media or
the pages of history and pre-history including
stone age.

They view themselves, what they do, and their ideas
as universal and everybody else, what they do, and
their ideas as ethnic.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
[QB] 19th century Canary Island people:

(from above book "f" s modernized to "s" s - lioness productions 2011):

All the lower fort of the people in thefe islands wear their own hair which is black and generally bushy; they let it grow to great length and when they dress, comb it out in such a manner that the fashion of wearing hair at present here seems to be the same as that which prevailed in England in the reign of King James I. They tuck the hair in the rights side of the head behind the ear.
__________________________________________________


somebody post a modern photo of a group of people who could fit this description, thank you

-it shouldn't be that difficult

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alTakruri
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
There goes the lie of white indigenes of the Canary Islands!

Yep, they took one set of people in the north
parts of Tenerife, the Gaunches, and magically
deceitfully made them into as if they were the
inhabitants of the entire chain of Canary Islands
though they were just an infinitesimal subset of the
Canarian peoples. I had no idea until coming across
this old book a few days ago. Before then I was down
with the okey doke.

The vast majority of white people only want to see
themselves, or something resembling themselves,
where ever they look be it modern mass media or
the pages of history and pre-history including
stone age.

They view themselves, what they do, and their ideas
as universal and everybody else, what they do, and
their ideas as ethnic.

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melchior7
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Where did I say anything about light features?? I'm talking about founder effect in terms of Y lineages.

Not arguing about the origin of Y leneages.


What's ignorant is that you deny blacks as the truly indigenous people despite that Berber is an African language and there is no proof of any non-African language in the region

I don't really consider Afro Asiatic languages African. Even its very name suggests that it is only part African. Berber is related to languages like Arabic and Hebrew. Afro Asiatic language bear no relation to most other African language families. Many Afro Asiatics speaker in Africa look mixed with Semitic features like the Ethipians Somalians etc

Now what's so funny about R originating in Africa when there are a high percentage underived R* markers in rural areas of Cameroon but only a few outside of Africa? Has it not occurred to you that downstream R carriers in Eurasia inherited it from their African ancestors??

You are ignoring the fact that R* markers are also found in Pakistan. And that parent haplogroup P orginates in Central Asia. Also R is scarce in Africa, existing in only a few areas.

--------------------
In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth.

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melchior7
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Indeed. There goes the lie of white indigenes of the Canary Islands!

Nobody used the term White here. But we did mention that some Guanche were fair comlexioned with light hair. The main point here is to show that these people who are believed to have been for the most part descendants of ancient Berbers were not Blacks, but they resembled most of the Berbers Today.

The book describes the inhabitanst as dusky meaning swarthy like many North Africans today. You notice the author did not say they were negroes. And I'm sure he knew what Blacks looked
like and would said as much. That they can grow their hair long enough and tuck behind their ear in the style of the English should give us some indication of its texture.
Any case as I said there were variations in phenotypes among people from different Islands. There is no denying that there were fair types as well.

And here are some exapmles of what people refer to as dusky. Have a look.

http://celebrityemails.blogspot.com/2007/07/dusky-beauties-of-bollywood.html

Here is a statue of a Guanche leader.

 -

How the Spanish depict them.

 -

--------------------
In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth.

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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I don't really consider Afro Asiatic languages African.
^^^
Does it matter what YOU Think or does it matter what the truth tells.

Even its very name suggests that it is only part African.

How many of the Languages of "Afro-Astiatc is spoken in Africa and how many in Asia??

Also many people call it "Afrasan".

Berber is related to languages like Arabic and Hebrew.

Berber is not Semetic..

Many Afro Asiatics speaker in Africa look mixed with Semitic features like the Ethipians Somalians etc

What is an African supposed to look like and what is a "Semite" supposed to look like?? How did you come to the conclusion that all the Afro-asiatic speakers are mixed, what proof do you offer.

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melchior7
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
There goes the lie of white indigenes of the Canary Islands!

Yep, they took one set of people in the north
parts of Tenerife, the Gaunches, and magically
deceitfully made them into as if they were the
inhabitants of the entire chain of Canary Islands
though they were just an infinitesimal subset of the
Canarian peoples. I had no idea until coming across
this old book a few days ago. Before then I was down
with the okey doke.

The vast majority of white people only want to see
themselves, or something resembling themselves,
where ever they look be it modern mass media or
the pages of history and pre-history including
stone age.

They view themselves, what they do, and their ideas
as universal and everybody else, what they do, and
their ideas as ethnic.

A lot of what you are stating is true. But as the saying goes, "just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean people aren't out to get ya". Or in the case of the Guanche just because Whites may have a tendency to project themselves into other people, doesn't that most Guanche weren't Eurasians looking. [Smile]
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melchior7
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Does it matter what YOU Think or does it matter what the truth tells.
What does the truth tell?


How many of the Languages of "Afro-Astiatc is spoken in Africa and how many in Asia??

I don't know but Arabic has the largest amount of speakers of any Afro Asiatic language.


Berber is not Semetic..

But it is still related to Semitic languages while it is not related to West African language like Wolof...you know this, right?


What is an African supposed to look like and what is a "Semite" supposed to look like?? How did you come to the conclusion that all the Afro-asiatic speakers are mixed, what proof do you offer.

I don't know Jari but when a woman looks like this..
 -

and we know that they live in close proximity to Arabia, and their genetic makeup shows non African haplogroups like J, T..and MtDNA R0a and HV1b, we have to wonder if this might have something to do with the fact that they look different from other Africans, no?

--------------------
In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth.

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alTakruri
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quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

in the case of the Guanche just because Whites may have a tendency to project themselves into other people, doesn't that most Guanche weren't Eurasians looking. [Smile]

Sure, the Guanches -- a minority population of
Tenerife only found in the north -- were likey
Eurasian in appearance. So what?

Guanches are a small minority of the Canarians.
They only inhabited the north of Tenerife.

Besides the north part of Tenerife we have to
consider the central and south parts of Tenerife
along with the great bulk of the Canary Islands:
2 - Alegranza
3 - El Hierro
4 - Fuerteventura
5 - Gran Canaria
6 - Isla de Lobos
7 - La Gomera
8 - Lanzarote
9 - La Graciosa
10 - La Palma
11 - Montaña Clara
12 - Roque del Este
13 - Roque del Oeste.

We have seen them documented as darker skinned than
southern Spaniards and having bushy hair black in color.

No need for you to swear to the lie that all
Canarians are the pale blond north Tenerifeans
known as Gaunches, a small subset of the whole.

Of course, for some, a lie is more comforting than the truth.

If you can't produce older records than the one
I did about the discovery and colonization of
the Canaries you should please keep any of your
unsubstantited opinionated views to yourself.


quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
There goes the lie of white indigenes of the Canary Islands!

Yep, they took one set of people in the north
parts of Tenerife, the Gaunches, and magically
deceitfully made them into as if they were the
inhabitants of the entire chain of Canary Islands
though they were just an infinitesimal subset of the
Canarian peoples. I had no idea until coming across
this old book a few days ago. Before then I was down
with the okey doke.

The vast majority of white people only want to see
themselves, or something resembling themselves,
where ever they look be it modern mass media or
the pages of history and pre-history including
stone age.

They view themselves, what they do, and their ideas
as universal and everybody else, what they do, and
their ideas as ethnic.


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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
del Oeste.

We have seen them documented as darker skinned than
southern Spaniards and having bushy hair black in
color.


this is the description. a gun but not a smoking one:

i]All the lower sort of the people in the islands wear their own hair which is black and generally bushy; they let it grow to great length and when they dress, comb it out in such a manner that the fashion of wearing hair at present here seems to be the same as that which prevailed in England in the reign of King James I. They tuck the hair in the rights side of the head behind the ear. [/i]


^^^ their hair is described as bushy, yet grows to a great length.
The hair is also in a condition that it could be tucked behind the ear.

You left all that part out and just went with "bushy" which by itself is more ambiguous

but the description says that the hair could be grown long, long like in the period of King James in which some men would grow their hair well below their shoulders (King James II)
and the the hair was in the condition that it could be tucked behind their ears
 -


lioness productions 2011

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Omo Baba
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quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
I don't really consider Afro Asiatic languages African. Even its very name suggests that it is only part African. Berber is related to languages like Arabic and Hebrew. Afro Asiatic language bear no relation to most other African language families. Many Afro Asiatics speaker in Africa look mixed with Semitic features like the Ethipians Somalians etc

Hausa language and Hausa people prove you wrong here. But then I assume already you don't what you're talking about.
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alTakruri
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quote:
Originally posted by astenb:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
wah wah wah

Shut you god damn ass up!
What he said!
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melchior7
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

in the case of the Guanche just because Whites may have a tendency to project themselves into other people, doesn't that most Guanche weren't Eurasians looking. [Smile]

Sure, the Guanches -- a minority population of
Tenerife only found in the north -- were likey
Eurasian in appearance. So what?

Guanches are a small minority of the Canarians.
They only inhabited the north of Tenerife.

Besides the north part of Tenerife we have to
consider the central and south parts of Tenerife
along with the great bulk of the Canary Islands:
2 - Alegranza
3 - El Hierro
4 - Fuerteventura
5 - Gran Canaria
6 - Isla de Lobos
7 - La Gomera
8 - Lanzarote
9 - La Graciosa
10 - La Palma
11 - Montaña Clara
12 - Roque del Este
13 - Roque del Oeste.

We have seen them documented as darker skinned than
southern Spaniards and having bushy hair black in color.

No need for you to swear to the lie that all
Canarians are the pale blond north Tenerifeans
known as Gaunches, a small subset of the whole.

Of course, for some, a lie is more comforting than the truth.

If you can't produce older records than the one
I did about the discovery and colonization of
the Canaries you should please keep any of your
unsubstantited opinionated views to yourself.


quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
There goes the lie of white indigenes of the Canary Islands!

Yep, they took one set of people in the north
parts of Tenerife, the Gaunches, and magically
deceitfully made them into as if they were the
inhabitants of the entire chain of Canary Islands
though they were just an infinitesimal subset of the
Canarian peoples. I had no idea until coming across
this old book a few days ago. Before then I was down
with the okey doke.

The vast majority of white people only want to see
themselves, or something resembling themselves,
where ever they look be it modern mass media or
the pages of history and pre-history including
stone age.

They view themselves, what they do, and their ideas
as universal and everybody else, what they do, and
their ideas as ethnic.


Bushy Black hair, swarthy complexion.

 -

I never said all Canarians were fair and blond. Don't straw man me. Some of them idndeed where but I said that they varied according to the Islands they lived on.

The bottom line is that they were not Blacks. And if they are desecendants of Berbers as linguistic and genetic studies seem to indicate then that would imply that the Berbers tribes that they are descendant from in antiquity were not Black either.

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melchior7
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quote:
Originally posted by Omo Baba:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
I don't really consider Afro Asiatic languages African. Even its very name suggests that it is only part African. Berber is related to languages like Arabic and Hebrew. Afro Asiatic language bear no relation to most other African language families. Many Afro Asiatics speaker in Africa look mixed with Semitic features like the Ethipians Somalians etc

Hausa language and Hausa people prove you wrong here. But then I assume already you don't what you're talking about.
Here are some Hausa.
 -

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alTakruri
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What? More picture spam that can't tell bushy from wavy???

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
... the Berbers tribes that they are descendant from in antiquity were not Black either.

Sorry too many written notices from Greek, Latin,
Byzantine, and Arab authors classifying coastal NAs
as black despite sprinkles of whites among them.

For starters look up what's been posted here by
* Aeschylus
* Manilius
* Procopius
* al~Jahiz
on North African overall appearance and ranking
with dark and African populations south and east
of the Mediterranean Sea but never with light and
European populations north of the same said sea.

Too bad your idea of black is the old negro canard.

Besides, neither linguistics nor genetics can
conclusively show what a population's colour is.

I'm not the one for a lot of useless hem and haw
jaw jacking so put up supportive evidence primary
contemporaneous documentation or shut it.

Until you do I have nothing more to say to you.

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by malcontent7:

Bushy Black hair, swarthy complexion.

 -

I never said all Canarians were fair and blond. Don't straw man me. Some of them idndeed where but I said that they varied according to the Islands they lived on.

The bottom line is that they were not Blacks. And if they are desecendants of Berbers as linguistic and genetic studies seem to indicate then that would imply that the Berbers tribes that they are descendant from in antiquity were not Black either.

LOL Speaking of strawman arguments...

Since when is not being black proof of non-black ancestry?? Last time I checked about a third of European men including a quarter of Greeks carry E-M78 which is African derived yet they are not black. Similarly there are African Americans who are very black and African in appearance yet carry R1b ancestry from white slave masters!

As for Berber, how many times must we bash it into your thimble head that proto-Berber originated among Africans only (NO Eurasians) and thus indeed black!

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Omo Baba
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quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Here are some Hausa.
www.nairaland.com/attachments/267049_wedding_0003_jpgd748416f414aba7cf2ad63a43e301ff6

Those are Nigerian Hausa-nized Fulanis.

These are Hausas

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Four_Hausa_Gun_Carriers_of_the_South_Nigerian_Regiment_by_Sir_%28John%29_Benjamin_Stone_cropped.jpg

--------------------
It was high time

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

Sorry too many written notices from Greek, Latin,
Byzantine, and Arab authors classifying coastal NAs
as black despite sprinkles of whites among them.

For starters look up what's been posted here by
* Aeschylus
* Manilius
* Procopius
* al~Jahiz
on North African overall appearance and ranking
with dark and African populations south and east
of the Mediterranean Sea but never with light and
European populations north of the same said sea.

Too bad your idea of black is the old negro canard.

Besides, neither linguistics nor genetics can
conclusively show what a population's colour is.

I'm not the one for a lot of useless hem and haw
jaw jacking so put up supportive evidence primary
contemporaneous documentation or shut it.

Until you do I have nothing more to say to you.

LOL Indeed all the 'Classical' sources including sources from Arab conquerers describe the predominant Berber inhabitants as black.

And all his whining won't make this Roman mosaic of Numidians go away either.

 -

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melchior7
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LOL Speaking of strawman arguments...

Since when is not being black proof of non-black ancestry??

If Guanche Dna was predomiantly E-m81 and U6 and H like the anicent berber, then what was there for them to mix with to lose their Blackness you big doofus?


As for Berber, how many times must we bash it into your thimble head that proto-Berber originated among Africans only (NO Eurasians) and thus indeed black!

Tyhe Berbers I know of are the ones who lived in the Maghreb were most are Middle Eastern looking. Whatever the E carriers derived couldn't properly be called Berber.

--------------------
In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth.

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Malcontent7:

I don't really consider Afro-Asiatic languages African.

LMAO [Big Grin]

And who cares what you consider?! All valid scholars consider it African because the phylum originated in Africa with only one sub-family outside of Africa, namely Semitic.

quote:
Berber is related to languages like Arabic and Hebrew.
Yeah as much as Egyptic and Cushitic. Your point? Berber is its own family. Arabic and Hebrew are languages belonging to the Semitic family and so are Amhara and Tigrinya of Ethiopia making them far more related to Arabic and Hebrew.

quote:
Many Afro Asiatics speaker in Africa look mixed with Semitic features like the Ethipians Somalians etc
Define "Semitic features". Also, Ethiopians and especially Somalis are overwhelmingly African genetically with only minimal Eurasian lineages. And what of Semitic speakers in the Middle East like in the Levant and Arabia? You do realize they carry E lineages and that there are some Arabian tribes that are black in appearance. The 'Near East' you always love to emphasize is right next door to Africa, hence how acquired Afrasian Semitic in the first place!
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by malcontent7:

If Guanche Dna was predomiantly E-m81 and U6 and H like the anicent berber, then what was there for them to mix with to lose their Blackness you big doofus?

Again you presume that the lineages especially in regards to mitochondrial ones are uniform for all Berbers. You ask about the Guance but what of the majority of Canarians who are/were black??

quote:
The Berbers I know of are the ones who lived in the Maghreb were most are Middle Eastern looking. Whatever the E carriers derived couldn't properly be called Berber.
I take it (from your selective spam) that by Middle Eastern, you mean mixed. How can you judge the appearance of the ancestors by those of the descendants?? The majority of Berbers NOT living in the Maghreb ARE black in appearance. Proto-Berber was said to originate in the eastern Sahara splitting from the common ancestor as proto-Egyptic and proto-Semitic. We have skeletal remains from that very region, an NO they do not resemble your conceived 'Middle Eastern' look!
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melchior7
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

LOL Indeed all the 'Classical' sources including sources from Arab conquerers describe the predominant Berber inhabitants as black.

And all his whining won't make this Roman mosaic of Numidians go away either.

 - [/QB][/QUOTE]
Those folks do not look Black to me. [Big Grin]

And for Al Tratuckie and his old negro canard comment. If we can't agree on what Black is, then I suppose you can claim anyone as Black. I will say this much people describing North Africans as swarthy or Dusky doen't make them Black. Just like I don't consider these typical looking Moroccans Black.

 -


You just want to call them Black to tie them to yourself so you can claim their achievments.

Anyway many of the ancients thought that Berbers had come from some place other than Africa..I wonder why?

"The Greek historian Herodotus said 5 centuries B.C. that Berbers descended from the inhabitants of Troy who had sought refuge in North Africa after their city was conquered by the Greeks.

A few centuries later the Roman historian Sallustus claimed they originated in Persia.

Later still the Byzantine historian Procopus saw the Berbers as being Cananeans who were expelled from Palestine by the tribes of Israel after the defeat of Goliath by David.

Perhaps one should ask oneself why the Berbers should have to come from some other land rather than have originated in this region of Northern Africa where traces of their civilization are found in the form of Capsian art (from contemporary Gafsa) from the 8th to the 5th millennium B.C."
http://www.amazighworld.org/eng/studies/index_show.php?id=20

Were the Trojans Black?? [Eek!]

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melchior7
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All valid scholars consider it African because the phylum originated in Africa with only one sub-family outside of Africa, namely Semitic.

Valid according to who??

Your point? Berber is its own family. Arabic and Hebrew are languages belonging to the Semitic family and so are Amhara and Tigrinya of Ethiopia making them far more related to Arabic and Hebrew.


The point is that the majority of Afro Asiatic speakers are not evern Black. Lol!

Define "Semitic features". Also, Ethiopians and especially Somalis are overwhelmingly African genetically with only minimal Eurasian lineages.

So you don't think those lineages have anything to do with how they look? How dishonest.

 -

--------------------
In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth.

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melchior7
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Again you presume that the lineages especially in regards to mitochondrial ones are uniform for all Berbers.

Go check on mtDNA for both and then get back to me.


You ask about the Guance but what of the majority of Canarians who are/were black??

Oh boy. Where did anyone is establish that the majority of Canarians were Blacks??

The majority of Berbers NOT living in the Maghreb ARE black in appearance.

Of course those in the Sahara mixed with Blacks.


Proto-Berber was said to originate in the eastern Sahara

Nah it likely originated in the Maghreb with the Capsian culture.

--------------------
In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth.

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alTakruri
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Sorry too many written notices from Greek, Latin,
Byzantine, and Arab authors classifying coastal NAs
as black despite sprinkles of whites among them.

For starters look up what's been posted here by
* Aeschylus
* Manilius
* Procopius
* al~Jahiz
on North African overall appearance and ranking
with dark and African populations south and east
of the Mediterranean Sea but never with light and
European populations north of the same said sea.

Too bad your idea of black is the old negro canard.

Besides, neither linguistics nor genetics can
conclusively show what a population's colour is.

I'm not the one for a lot of useless hem and haw
jaw jacking so put up supportive evidence primary
contemporaneous documentation
or shut it.

Until you do I have nothing more to say to you.

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alTakruri
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quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Proto-Berber was said to originate in the eastern Sahara

Nah it likely originated in the Maghreb with the Capsian culture.

According to who? Your arse?

You're just a dissident with no scholarship to
back up your opinionated anti-black insecurities.

Proto-Berber originated in the region of Darfur.


 -
See what Peter Behrens says in the last paragraph of the above image.
In this map accompanying her article Western African Languages in Historical
Perspective
, Kay Williamson sees proto-Tamazight (the first "Berber" language)

1. originating in the Gharb Darfur region of Sudan 8kya
2. spreading from there to
_a. the Dongola Reach/3rd cataract Tmhhw and to
_b. the Air-Hoggar region
3. before proto-North Tamazight developed
4. and went to
_a. the Maghreb and then eastward to
__* Rebu/Libou and
5. proto-Zenaga left Air/Adrar des Ifores for
_a. the Tagant (southern Mauritania).

See also
Roger Blench

Types of language spread and their archaeological correlates: the example of Berber

Origini, XXIII: 169-190 (2001)


Are there any current linguists proposing Melchior's
bullshit? No. But I'm tiring of countering Melchy
boy now. I realize his concern is not about facts
but about what's comforting to his silly unfounded
viewpoints. Either that or he's yanking chains, not
believing a word of what he posts, sitting back and
laughing at those foolish enough to accept his roorag.

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melchior7
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Lol. Kay Williamson's expertise was on West African languages of Nigeria. The experts can't even agree where proto Afro Asuatc comes from but many believe that Proto Berber originates with the Capsian culture in North Africa.

"The Neolithic Capsian culture appeared in North Africa around 9,500 B.C.E. and lasted until possibly 2700 B.C.E. Linguists and population geneticists alike have identified this culture as a probable period for the spread of an Afro-Asiatic language (ancestral to the modern Berber languages) to the area."
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Berber.

Which means you are full of you know what!

--------------------
In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth.

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lonelykiller
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Scientists never change.

When they think they're right, they're being dismissive and insultant.

--------------------
The best way to know where you're going is to look at where you've been

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lonelykiller
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Case dismissed then

--------------------
The best way to know where you're going is to look at where you've been

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alTakruri
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Only the ignorant are swayed by your lack of scholarship.

Williamson is based on Behrens as you'd see if you
could read. Prove you know how to read and quote the
Berber place of origin per Behrens.

And what about Blench?

Most important of all where is the scholar who
supports your bullshit place of origin for the
language?

Put up linguist scholars not some encyclopedia entry
that isn't even specific about the Berber language.

You're less than a joke. You can't name a single
modern day linguist to back up your full of bull.

Refuting you is easier than wrestling a paraplegic.

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Lol. Kay Williamson's expertise was on West African languages of Nigeria. The experts can't even agree where proto Afro Asuatc comes from but many believe that Proto Berber originates with the Capsian culture in North Africa.

"The Neolithic Capsian culture appeared in North Africa around 9,500 B.C.E. and lasted until possibly 2700 B.C.E. Linguists and population geneticists alike have identified this culture as a probable period for the spread of an Afro-Asiatic language (ancestral to the modern Berber languages) to the area."
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Berber.

Which means you are full of you know what!


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-Just Call Me Jari-
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What does the truth tell?

Afro-Asiatic originated in Africa, stop playing games.


I don't know but Arabic has the largest amount of speakers of any Afro Asiatic language.

WTF. What does that have to do with anything, Majority of African Americans speak English, Did we originate in England, or better yet using your criteria did English Originate in West Africa.

All of the Afro-Asiatic languages originated IN AFRICA except Semitic.

But it is still related to Semitic languages while it is not related to West African language like Wolof...you know this, right?

Who in the hell is talking about West African Languages specifically. I love how you Eurocentrics bend over backwards, changing the rules and segregating and nit picking when it suits you. The Same can be applied to Berber speakers and Southern Europeans, as Berbers are closer to Pitch black Oromos and Cushitic speaker than to the Europeans/Caucasian they resemble more, but of course this does'nt matter does it, In your world only things that matter are those that don't fit your Blubbery Lipped Pepper Corn Haired Negro image.


and we know that they live in close proximity to Arabia, and their genetic makeup shows non African haplogroups like J, T..and MtDNA R0a and HV1b, we have to wonder if this might have something to do with the fact that they look different from other Africans, no?

Im not going to play your cherry picked Images game. I can post images of Afro-Asiatic Speakers who look no different than "Other Africans" also concerning HG J Explorer makes a good case of its African origin.

The fact remains that All the languages of the Afro-Asiatic languages except possibly Semetic(even that though Might have) originated in Africa.

Case closed.

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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Dude who the f-ck cares what the hell you think. seriously. I-this, me-that, History does'nt revolve around you.

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

Those folks do not look Black to me. [Big Grin]


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:


I don't really consider Afro Asiatic languages African.

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:


I know of are the ones who lived in the Maghreb were most are Middle Eastern looking.

Just as you can claim any non Blubbery Lipped, Non Pepper Corn Nappy headed African is mixed with "Eurasians(Caucasians) and every Black Berber is mixed with Slaves or people who fit closer to your imaginary Negro image.

Your failed attempts to push and get us at Egyptsearch to accept Negro steryotype as a basis for African people and phenotype fails. We are'nt buying your shi@ and we see past the Semantics and Fallacies.

Give it a rest already..... you Will fail.


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
[
And for Al Tratuckie and his old negro canard comment. If we can't agree on what Black is, then I suppose you can claim anyone as Black.

Just as those living Near Europe mixed with Whites..


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:


Of course those in the Sahara mixed with Blacks.



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Brada-Anansi
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 -
Not Blk enough fer ya???
 -  -
 -  -  -
"BLACK " enough fer ya Melchoir??
http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=bag&action=display&thread=25&page=6

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by malcontent7:

 -

Those folks do not look Black to me. [Big Grin]

LMAO

Now I know you are just being a disingenuous little liar!

Anybody with eyes can see the milk-chocolate complexions of the Numidians are more than just tans.

quote:
And for Al Tratuckie and his old negro canard comment. If we can't agree on what Black is, then I suppose you can claim anyone as Black. I will say this much people describing North Africans as swarthy or Dusky doen't make them Black. Just like I don't consider these typical looking Moroccans Black.

 -

You just want to call them Black to tie them to yourself so you can claim their achievements.

More disingenuous lying. You know damn well what 'black' entails.

Does this ancient North African (Egyptian) not count as 'black'??

 -

What of these (Libyans)?

 -

Tunsians?

 -

Finally Moroccans?

 -

Funny how even those Moroccans and other Berbers off the coast of lighter complexions are called "mongrels" and "mulattoes" by Europeans.

 -

quote:
Anyway many of the ancients thought that Berbers had come from some place other than Africa..I wonder why?

"The Greek historian Herodotus said 5 centuries B.C. that Berbers descended from the inhabitants of Troy who had sought refuge in North Africa after their city was conquered by the Greeks.

A few centuries later the Roman historian Sallustus claimed they originated in Persia.

Later still the Byzantine historian Procopus saw the Berbers as being Cananeans who were expelled from Palestine by the tribes of Israel after the defeat of Goliath by David.

Perhaps one should ask oneself why the Berbers should have to come from some other land rather than have originated in this region of Northern Africa where traces of their civilization are found in the form of Capsian art (from contemporary Gafsa) from the 8th to the 5th millennium B.C."
http://www.amazighworld.org/eng/studies/index_show.php?id=20

Were the Trojans Black??

But does this not only prove our point that Berbers were not uniform in looks as you yourself recalled how the Greeks distinguished Leuoco-Libyes and Black Gaetuli! Your own sources shoot yourself in the face by exposing how the peoples they point out look different from the [BLACK] indigenes and therefore originate somewhere else, stupid!
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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Where did I say anything about light features?? I'm talking about founder effect in terms of Y lineages.

Not arguing about the origin of Y leneages.


What's ignorant is that you deny blacks as the truly indigenous people despite that Berber is an African language and there is no proof of any non-African language in the region

I don't really consider Afro Asiatic languages African. Even its very name suggests that it is only part African. Berber is related to languages like Arabic and Hebrew. Afro Asiatic language bear no relation to most other African language families. Many Afro Asiatics speaker in Africa look mixed with Semitic features like the Ethipians Somalians etc

Now what's so funny about R originating in Africa when there are a high percentage underived R* markers in rural areas of Cameroon but only a few outside of Africa? Has it not occurred to you that downstream R carriers in Eurasia inherited it from their African ancestors??

You are ignoring the fact that R* markers are also found in Pakistan. And that parent haplogroup P orginates in Central Asia. Also R is scarce in Africa, existing in only a few areas.

Why do you keep trying to pretend that Berbers are some kind of race or single population is what I'm trying to figure out.

The semitic dialects are African too. So WHAT! Does that mean every person that speaks semitic is related to the original semitic speaker or Afro-Asiatic?

I speak English? Does that mean the original English speaker who came to this country looked like me?

Furthermore whether Afro-Asiatic originated in the Anatolia, in a UFO, Atlantis, the North Pole or on Mars, all evidence shows whoever was originally speaking that language group was BLACK. [Roll Eyes]

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Lol. Kay Williamson's expertise was on West African languages of Nigeria. The experts can't even agree where proto Afro Asuatc comes from but many believe that Proto Berber originates with the Capsian culture in North Africa.

"The Neolithic Capsian culture appeared in North Africa around 9,500 B.C.E. and lasted until possibly 2700 B.C.E. Linguists and population geneticists alike have identified this culture as a probable period for the spread of an Afro-Asiatic language (ancestral to the modern Berber languages) to the area."
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Berber.

Which means you are full of you know what!

Did you know Melchior that several specialists have noted obvious connections of the neolithic Capsians to East African people both osteologically or skeletally and culturally speaking.

I'm not certain what you are implying by persistently bringing up these notably black African ancestors in your argument. Do you have some information that I haven't heard about? [Confused]

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Lol. Kay Williamson's expertise was on West African languages of Nigeria. The experts can't even agree where proto Afro Asuatc comes from but many believe that Proto Berber originates with the Capsian culture in North Africa.

"The Neolithic Capsian culture appeared in North Africa around 9,500 B.C.E. and lasted until possibly 2700 B.C.E. Linguists and population geneticists alike have identified this culture as a probable period for the spread of an Afro-Asiatic language (ancestral to the modern Berber languages) to the area."
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Berber.

Which means you are full of you know what!

Did you know Melchior that several specialists have noted obvious connections of the neolithic Capsians to East African people both osteologically or skeletally and culturally speaking.


^^

As well as genetically.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
[QB] 19th century Canary Island people:

(from above book "f" s modernized to "s" s - lioness productions 2011):

All the lower fort of the people in thefe islands wear their own hair which is black and generally bushy; they let it grow to great length and when they dress, comb it out in such a manner that the fashion of wearing hair at present here seems to be the same as that which prevailed in England in the reign of King James I. They tuck the hair in the rights side of the head behind the ear.
__________________________________________________


somebody post a modern photo of a group of people who could fit this description, thank you

-it shouldn't be that difficult

 -
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Djehuti
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^ LOL Yes black bushy hair is no longer a trait of black Africans either, huh.

quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

Why do you keep trying to pretend that Berbers are some kind of race or single population is what I'm trying to figure out.

The semitic dialects are African too. So WHAT! Does that mean every person that speaks semitic is related to the original semitic speaker or Afro-Asiatic?

I speak English? Does that mean the original English speaker who came to this country looked like me?

Furthermore whether Afro-Asiatic originated in the Anatolia, in a UFO, Atlantis, the North Pole or on Mars, all evidence shows whoever was originally speaking that language group was BLACK. [Roll Eyes]

This is the strawman logic Malcontent keeps using. To cherry pick the non-black Berber speakers as representative of all Berbers including the proto-Berbers! It is laughable and ridiculous if anything else.
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alTakruri
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Juba II madness

_______ Juba II Numidian African ____________ Typical Euro-Roman
 -  -


The Numidian differs from the European in all the stereotypical hair and facial
features. The hair is thicker and "wilder." The eye is larger and rounder. The
cheek bones are higher and more protruding. The nose is flatter and broader
with nostrils tending to round/oval rather than oblong/slit shape. The lips are
thicker and more everted. King Juba II's antecedents thus seem the type of black
autochthonous to littoral North Africa.


 -

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the lioness,
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quote:
Takruri's True Negro identification Field Gude and Handbook, chapter 4, Facial features of the Common Negro, p 3:
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:


The Numidian differs from the European in all the stereotypical hair and facial
features. The hair is thicker and "wilder." The eye is larger and rounder. The
cheek bones are higher and more protruding. The nose is flatter and broader
with nostrils tending to round/oval rather than oblong/slit shape. The lips are
thicker and more everted. King Juba II's antecedents thus seem the type of black
autochthonous to littoral North Africa.



what nonsense, one person as prototypical "European"
one person as prototypical "Numidian"

that "wilder hair" thing was completely ridiculous, you can't be serious. have you turned into one of the curly hair = black theorists now, Mike and Iron finally got to you?
His hair consists of wavy curls of straight strand hair,
the straight strand lines clear in this sculpture.
Lips a little Mick Jaggerish so what


 -
Juba II

why do you delude yourself like this? The hair is a dead giveaway
not tightly coiled, not African indigenous or mulatto


 -

^^^ wild and crazy primitive hair

 -

the jig is up

well what about Juba I he's Rastafraian right?
 -

^^^wrong, this is obviously a Euro or Middleastern type trying to look hip by Africanizing his hair (or hat/wig whatever the hell is on his head)


the jig is up,

blacks in Carthage, yeah some, but look at all the Carthginian coins, It's primarily Phoenicians
and the Numidians next door, the kings had Punic names
this indicates who the majority population was, migrants from outside of Africa who settled nearly 3000 years ago.
Were there also dark skinned people of SS backgound around,

.

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Doug M
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One cannot rely on coins and statuary alone to determine the predominant phenotype in any place hundreds or thousands of years ago. If you would collect all the coins, statuary from the times of the Numidians you will definitely see blacks depicted among them. No amount of spinning will change the facts that these blacks have always been there or that mixed types were there as well. Anybody with eyes and can read a map can see that the proximity of Europe to North Africa makes it prone to mixing of populations from across and along the Mediterranean.

However, what is not clear and what has not been supported by those making the claim, is that Berber languages originates with Eurasian migrants to North Africa. Whether it be the Phoenicians, the Greeks, the Romans, the Normans, the Vandals, the Sea Peoples, the Turks, the Arabs or anyone else. Berber languages are strictly an African phenomenon not originating from populations outside the continent. Hence it is of no merit to say that because some Berbers are European in phenotype, that means that Berber is a European or Eurasian linguistic and cultural import to Africa. It is not. Cite whoever you want that says this from a scholarly perspective, but I doubt you will find any.

However, you will find many scholars and writers from throughout history who have talked of the mixed populations in parts of North Africa. Who in their right mind would even begin to suggest this is the debate? Of course they are there. However, when you speak of mixed this implies a native aboriginal component and a non native component. And in almost all cases the black African component is the aboriginal component. Please cite any author you wish who claims otherwise from literary sources. Scientifically this has also been shown through genetics and isn't really an argument either, but again show me some scientists who claim that black Africans are not the aboriginal indigenous populations of North Africa prior to any "mixed" populations of various backgrounds.

But these clowns want it both ways. The original populations were white and the later populations with whom they mixed and of course Berber languages popped up and originated with these white populations from outside of Africa. None of which is supported by any facts at all. But they will nit pick and argue about anything and everything that supports the identification of blacks in North Africa, because in order to support their absurd claims of an ancient aboriginal and pure non black "African" population in North Africa, they have to promote the idea of no indigenous black African features in no part of the population at any point of time in history. This is obviously demonstrably false, but that is their silliness at this point.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Anybody with eyes and can read a map can see that the proximity of Europe to North Africa makes it prone to mixing of populations from across and along the Mediterranean.

you will find many scholars and writers from throughout history who have talked of the mixed populations in parts of North Africa. Who in their right mind would even begin to suggest this is the debate? Of course they are there.

I agree

quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:

However, what is not clear and what has not been supported by those making the claim, is that Berber languages originates with Eurasian migrants to North Africa. Whether it be the Phoenicians, the Greeks, the Romans, the Normans, the Vandals, the Sea Peoples, the Turks, the Arabs or anyone else. Berber languages are strictly an African phenomenon not originating from populations outside the continent.
Hence it is of no merit to say that because some Berbers are European in phenotype, that means that Berber is a European or Eurasian linguistic and cultural import to Africa. It is not. Cite whoever you want that says this from a scholarly perspective, but I doubt you will find any.

Berber languages and Berber peoples: genetic and linguistic diversity:

Naima Louali

Dating Proto-Berber remains a difficult task, and Berber represents a fascinating case for historical linguistic: it is very different from the other families of the Afro-Asiatic phylum which would indicate a very old split (around 8 000 ~ 9 000 years BP). On the other hand, present-day Berber languages are quite homogeneous suggesting that they shared a common ancestor not more than about 3000 years BP by comparison say to other families such as Romance or Germanic. Given this contradiction, it is practically impossible to identify the immediate ancestor of present-day Berber languages with the first stage of differentiation of Berber within the Afro-Asiatic phylum. We propose, on the basis of the lexical reconstruction of livestock-herding, a Proto-Berber 1 (PB1) around 7 000 BP and a Proto-Berber 2 (PB2) the direct ancestor of contemporary Berber languages (Louali & Philippson 2003).

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melchior7
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Only the ignorant are swayed by your lack of scholarship.

Williamson is based on Behrens as you'd see if you
could read. Prove you know how to read and quote the
Berber place of origin per Behrens.

And what about Blench?

Most important of all where is the scholar who
supports your bullshit place of origin for the
language?

Put up linguist scholars not some encyclopedia entry
that isn't even specific about the Berber language.

You're less than a joke. You can't name a single
modern day linguist to back up your full of bull.

Refuting you is easier than wrestling a paraplegic.

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Lol. Kay Williamson's expertise was on West African languages of Nigeria. The experts can't even agree where proto Afro Asuatc comes from but many believe that Proto Berber originates with the Capsian culture in North Africa.

"The Neolithic Capsian culture appeared in North Africa around 9,500 B.C.E. and lasted until possibly 2700 B.C.E. Linguists and population geneticists alike have identified this culture as a probable period for the spread of an Afro-Asiatic language (ancestral to the modern Berber languages) to the area."
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Berber.

Which means you are full of you know what!


You refute noting.
I don't need to search for some obscure studies to prove my point. The Encyclopedia reflects the consenus...Berber langauge likely orginated with Capsian culture in North africa. Deal with it.

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melchior7
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quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
What does the truth tell?

Afro-Asiatic originated in Africa, stop playing games.


I don't know but Arabic has the largest amount of speakers of any Afro Asiatic language.

WTF. What does that have to do with anything, Majority of African Americans speak English, Did we originate in England, or better yet using your criteria did English Originate in West Africa.

All of the Afro-Asiatic languages originated IN AFRICA except Semitic.

But it is still related to Semitic languages while it is not related to West African language like Wolof...you know this, right?

Who in the hell is talking about West African Languages specifically. I love how you Eurocentrics bend over backwards, changing the rules and segregating and nit picking when it suits you. The Same can be applied to Berber speakers and Southern Europeans, as Berbers are closer to Pitch black Oromos and Cushitic speaker than to the Europeans/Caucasian they resemble more, but of course this does'nt matter does it, In your world only things that matter are those that don't fit your Blubbery Lipped Pepper Corn Haired Negro image.


and we know that they live in close proximity to Arabia, and their genetic makeup shows non African haplogroups like J, T..and MtDNA R0a and HV1b, we have to wonder if this might have something to do with the fact that they look different from other Africans, no?

Im not going to play your cherry picked Images game. I can post images of Afro-Asiatic Speakers who look no different than "Other Africans" also concerning HG J Explorer makes a good case of its African origin.

The fact remains that All the languages of the Afro-Asiatic languages except possibly Semetic(even that though Might have) originated in Africa.

Case closed.

Dude when will you face facts? I don't care that you call it AFRO asiatic, most people don't associate those langauges with Blacks,ok? They think of Arabs, hebrews, Berbers etc.

And about Horn Africans are you going to pretend that their look has nothing to do with back migrations into Africa and the proximity of Ethiopia, Somalia etc to it's Semetic neighbors??

Ofd course you will cuz you're dishonest and desperate.

So the Explorer now claims J is African , does he? LOL! How surprising. Next he will be saying Louis XIV was Black. And of course you will believe him..What a trip. Lol!

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melchior7
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Where did I say anything about light features?? I'm talking about founder effect in terms of Y lineages.

Not arguing about the origin of Y leneages.


What's ignorant is that you deny blacks as the truly indigenous people despite that Berber is an African language and there is no proof of any non-African language in the region

I don't really consider Afro Asiatic languages African. Even its very name suggests that it is only part African. Berber is related to languages like Arabic and Hebrew. Afro Asiatic language bear no relation to most other African language families. Many Afro Asiatics speaker in Africa look mixed with Semitic features like the Ethipians Somalians etc

Now what's so funny about R originating in Africa when there are a high percentage underived R* markers in rural areas of Cameroon but only a few outside of Africa? Has it not occurred to you that downstream R carriers in Eurasia inherited it from their African ancestors??

You are ignoring the fact that R* markers are also found in Pakistan. And that parent haplogroup P orginates in Central Asia. Also R is scarce in Africa, existing in only a few areas.

Why do you keep trying to pretend that Berbers are some kind of race or single population is what I'm trying to figure out.

The semitic dialects are African too. So WHAT! Does that mean every person that speaks semitic is related to the original semitic speaker or Afro-Asiatic?

I speak English? Does that mean the original English speaker who came to this country looked like me?

Furthermore whether Afro-Asiatic originated in the Anatolia, in a UFO, Atlantis, the North Pole or on Mars, all evidence shows whoever was originally speaking that language group was BLACK. [Roll Eyes]

I happen to believe the langauge family orgionated in Asia. Most African populations that speak it are distinguished by having certain mediterranean or Caucasian features.


 -

You all know damn well, a narrow nose, light skin and straight hair are not tropically adapted traits. THEY COME FOM NON AFRICAN BLOOD!

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melchior7
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Yohooti,

The images on thoses stamps just look like swarthy North Africans, not sub Saharans. And's whith the pictures of Black Libyans, Tunisians? Ar you trying to claim the majority of Tunisians etc are Black ? Lol.

And when I lived in France I never heard anyone call North Africans Mongrels or Mulatoes. They called them ARABS! Lol!

--------------------
In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth.

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