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Polimorfismos de DNA mitocondrial en poblaciones antiguas de la cuenca mediterránea.
Fernández Domínguez, E.
(2005)
The presence of almost 50% of sub-Saharan lineages L1b, L2 and L3 in Abauntz Chalcolithic deposits and Tres Montes, in Navarre, suggests the existence of an important gene flow from Africa to this geographic region. The low frequency of these lineages in the current Spanish population indicates that it has gene produced a replacement from the Chalcolithic period. The entry of African lineages could occur during the Paleolithic, during the Neolithic period, or during both periods. The phylogenetically related sequences present in the Chalcolithic deposit Iberian Peninsula and Neolithic and Chalcolithic samples of the Middle East points to Neolithic as most likely time of entry into the peninsula of these lineages.Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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Sage! More data. . .on entry of Africans(including SSA) across Gibralta. As I said, DNA testing on ancient remains is going to punch a lot of holes in egos. They better put a lid on it . . .quick!
ha! Ha! Ha! Thing is . Almost all develop nations have this tool. from Australia, to Spain, to Russua, to South Africa. It will be difficult to control DNA result getting out there. And with Google translator. "Man this is exciting times" for us truth seekers.
Hey CT. Stop watching YouTube and watch this onfold.
Nice find, Evergreen. Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Got it in Spanish. I believe from the University of Barcelona. Will have to use Google translator to read in English. Will try to find an English version.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Loosely translated from Spanish using Google Translator. As I always say. Testing the extant population don’t mean dick! Testing ancient population gives a clearer picture. %50 sub-saharans in southern Europe during Paleolithic and Neolithic times. What about the supra-saharans? What happened to these Africans? Were they exterminated during historical times? Circa “Europeans are new to Europe” a la Marcs thread =================
CONCLUSIONS POPULATION 26. The distance of Reynolds and cluster analysis show that the three sets sample set ("Paleolithic", "Neolithic Middle East" and "Neolithic of Iberian Peninsula ") are phylogenetically closer to each other than to current populations. 27. The three sample sets have in general a large number of haplotypes unrepresented and low-frequency current populations. 28. Although ancient populations differ from current procedures Phylogenetic reconstruction places the ancient haplotypes as closely related to the current, and indicate that both new and old, come from a common gene pool. 29. Samples Neolithic Middle East have a high genetic diversity, similar to the current populations of the same geographic region. 30. Samples Neolithic Middle East are of composition and frequency haplotypes and haplogroups different from the current population of the same region geography. It is inferred that in the Middle East has been a change in the genetic composition from the Neolithic period. 31. The presence of rare haplotypes now common to some samples of the Neolithic site of Tell Ramadan and the Druze population of the current Israel, suggests a likely relationship between matrilineal. 32. The presence of mitochondrial variations in the sample sub-Saharan Neolithic Discussed the Middle East, suggests that gene flow between this region and the continent Africa has been occurring since before the Neolithic. 33. Haplogroups proposed as markers of the Neolithic expansion into Europe from the Middle East, especially the haplogroup J-, are not old in the sample obtained in this geographic area. If we discard the Conclusions 637 sampling bias as the cause, the results suggest that: 1) or populations Neolithic spread in Europe that belonged to a later archaeological phase, or 2) the current substructure of haplogroup J does not have its origin in the Neolithic. 34. Considering only the composition of the samples Neolithic lineages Middle East, it is equally possible that the mitochondrial diversity of appropriate European populations: 1) demographic Neolithic expansions, 2) of a genetic continuity from Paleolithic. 35. The oldest samples of the Iberian Peninsula and composition are analyzed here frequency of haplotypes and haplogroups different populations of Iberian current, suggesting that, from the Neolithic there was a change in genetic composition of populations. 36. The presence of the 16126C-16311C �� reason now common in populations of Middle East in samples of the stratum �� Solutrean the Cave of Nerja and the Chalcolithic sites of Tres Montes and Abauntz, move to consider a Link matrilineal between these ancient populations and current populations of the East East. The lack of information from other periods dating prevents the potential connection. However, the absence of this motif in our sample of the Middle Neolithic East could indicate that this connection was back to the Neolithic PPNB. 37. The presence of almost 50% of sub-Saharan lineages L1b, L2 and L3 in Abauntz Chalcolithic deposits and Tres Montes, in Navarre, suggests the existence the past of an important gene flow from Africa to this geographic region. The low frequency of these lineages in the current Spanish population indicates that it has gene produced a replacement from the Chalcolithic period. The entry of African lineages could occur during the Paleolithic, during the Neolithic period, or during both periods. The phylogenetically related sequences present in the Chalcolithic deposits Iberian Peninsula and Neolithic and Chalcolithic samples of the Middle East points to Neolithic as most likely time of entry into the peninsula of these lineages. Eva Fernández Domínguez 638 38. Haplogroup V �� supposedly originating from the Pyrenean-Cantabrian strip �� is absent in samples from Chalcolithic period sites and Navarrese Abauntz Tres Montes. The results suggest that the high frequency current haplogroup mentioned in this zone is probably due to other factors such as Genetic drift and founder effect. 39. Overall, the results show that since the Neolithic is a change in the composition of mitochondrial populations of Syria and the Iberian Peninsula. The conclusions drawn from the diversity of mtDNA in existing populations should take this into consideration. 40. None of the sequences retrieved old, partial or complete, exhibits mutational pattern comparable to that of the Neanderthal specimens studied to date. The result is to suggest that, had produced a contribution Neanderthal gene pool to Europe, it would have been lost before the Neolithic.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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what happened was the Paleolithic black people who left Africa and settled in Europe 2.5 millions years ago eventually lost skin pigmentation and became the honkeys of Europe
Posts: 42935 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: what happened was the Paleolithic black people who left Africa and settled in Europe 2.5 millions years ago eventually lost skin pigmenation and became the honkeys of Europe
Shut you god damn ass up! _____________________
xyyman Do you have the link where this comes from. I want to save it. Thanks,
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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Typical white male response. Ridicule when cornered. You know I never believed you were black or a sista? Your MO is typical white male. Now CT I believe is black Haitian albiet NOT a brotha. He probably once was. Now he is just a confused HN.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: what happened was the Paleolithic black people who left Africa and settled in Europe 2.5 millions years ago eventually lost skin pigmenation and became the honkeys of Europe
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Typical white male response. Ridicule when cornered. You know I never believed you were black or a sista? Your MO is typical white male. Now CT I believe is black Haitian albiet NOT a brotha. He probably once was. Now he is just a confused HN.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: what happened was the Paleolithic black people who left Africa and settled in Europe 2.5 millions years ago eventually lost skin pigmenation and became the honkeys of Europe
It doesn't matter if the response is typical.
It matters if it's true or not.
Posts: 42935 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Typical white male response.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: what happened was the Paleolithic black people who left Africa and settled in Europe 2.5 millions years ago eventually lost skin pigmenation and became the honkeys of Europe
It doesn't matter if the response is typical.
It matters if it's true or not.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
You know I never believed you were black or a sista? Your MO is typical white male.
sometimes racial profiling methods fail
Sisterhood is powerful
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This information fits in nicely with the already reported African haplotypes in modern Iberian livestock, and the presence of certain West African markers (E1?) in the Iberian peninsula.
I believe Evergreen also posted an abstract some time ago that said that certain Ancient Portugese remains beared a resemblance to the Badarians.
Nice to see that the genetic data confirms the idea of a strong presence of African people in that region.
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^ Anyone remember Brace 2005 finding the Portuguese Mesolithic to cluster close to NE Africans? I initially thought that was due to methodological flaws, but now it all makes sense.
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Yep, the same goes for the Portugese Neolithic sample, the CV plot depicted them close as well
But like you said, I have my reservations when it comes to Brace's work, and his trivial traits, which is why I didnt bring it up
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I apologize for not properly formatting and correcting the CG translation to follow. Maybe 0ne of our knowledgeable native Spanish speakers will take a crack at it. The original is here.
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2.2.2.2. African genetic contribution to the European gene pool
The genetic history of human populations in the European and Africa has traditionally been performed separately. Contacts with the Africa-evident in some European populations such as Sicily, the Canary Islands or Andalusia, have been interpreted as the result of gene flow relatively recent. The high percentage of mitochondrial lineages of ancient samples currently located only in sub-Saharan Africa is to suggest that the roots Gene flow of this go much further back in the past, at least until the Neolithic. This is particularly evident in ancient samples of the Peninsula Ibérica, where 5 of the 11 complete sequences recovered, and at least one of the 9, partial sequences can be attributed unequivocally to African haplogroups subSahara.
As noted earlier, none of these lines is present in current populations used for comparison, although some haplotypes related. It follows that, in the geographic regions studied, took place population replacement. The result forces the other hand consider the following main issues: when the loss occurred in these lineages?; can Africa's influence extrapolated to other regions of the Iberian Peninsula and European continent?, and, what started this season gene flow from Africa? Regarding the first question, the information available to the only time can say that this loss must have been needed later the Chalcolithic. As for the second one, the small number of samples analyzed requires caution: to answer the question would be necessary to extend the
contemporary samples analysis from other geographical regions. The type and distribution of lineages obtained, however, suggests that the phenomenon could affect the entire peninsula. The two sites in the region in which it appears that type lineages are one in the south-in Nerja (Málaga) - and the other north in Navarre. Mitochondrial lines are present at both ends to different haplogroups, which makes plausible both the entry of two migratory waves from Africa as a single entry in a heterogeneous group with possible effects founders derivatives.
Africa's role in the prehistory of our country was very much a hypothesis prehistorians of fashion among the 20, later abandoned and incarnated later, the figure of Luis Pericot. Three are the times that proposed for the arrival of items and people from Africa: the Upper Paleolithic, Mesolithic and Neolithic.
During the Upper Paleolithic, Solutrean culture period could correspond to a stream arrival Africa across the Strait of Gibraltar, to judge by the similarities between the tips of the Cave Solutrean Mugaret the Aliya (Tangier) and those of the Cave Parpalló (Catalonia) (Pericot 1950).
According Pericot at the beginning of the Mesolithic penetrate the Peninsula's first major population flow from Africa. They were the bearers of the industry, "Capsiense" microlithic characterized by elements in a triangle and trapezoid decorated with shapes. There is evidence of the expansion of this industry for all Spain. Pericot also points out the presence of elements similar to microlithic capsienses in Portugal, the Muge shell middens. The availability of samples This location offered us a unique opportunity to test the veracity of this hypothesis. However, contamination of samples during the extraction process frustrated the target. Instead, it was obtained a complete sequence of another former contemporary midden next. The sample Toledo-1 (TO1) certainly belongs to African haplogroup L3, which supports the thesis of an African substratum Pericot Mesolithic in the Iberian Peninsula.
Of the four sequences obtained Paleolithic complete this work Magdalenian stratum-two and two-Solutrean, none shows the pattern characteristic mutational Africa. Neither the other two sequences exhibit Paleolithic published so far (DE BENEDETTO et al. 2000; Caramelli et al. 2003)-setting aside the skepticism about its authenticity (Abbott 2003) -. The small sample size does not, however, entirely rule out the existence of African gene flow in the Upper Paleolithic.
The second arrival of African immigrants corresponds to the Neolithic. By Pericot are two routes leading from the Neolithic to the Middle East Peninsula Ibérica. The first entered Europe through the Pyrenees and the second older, from Egypt through the Straits of Gibraltar. The input from Africa have occurred in two distinct waves of migration, the earliest associated cardial type ceramic carrier and a subsequent one undecorated pottery. Already in Peninsula, the cultural type characteristic of the second wave of migration Neolithic would have extended from the region of Almeria to virtually the whole Peninsula, so this phase has traditionally been called "Culture of Almería ". Potentially any of these two lineages could have left waves typically African in Andalusia and Navarre.
In the writings of Pericot-see The Roots of Spain or Spain Primitiva- , Stresses in particular that the various waves of immigration from Africa is not substantially modified the inhabitants of the Iberian Peninsula, as these Gravettian descended from ancestral substrate with roots in Africa too. The hypothesis fell into disuse and has long been challenged by many prehistory. Come, now, now back to these results, though not our prehistorians intended to replace but to contribute to the inquiry into the origin biological control of the ancient inhabitants of Iberia.
The mitochondrial DNA of European populations descended from a current few lines belonging to haplogroup L3 African who left the continent and led to the founding types M and N. Immigrants who settled in Europe descendant lineages carrying N-type, probably the haplogroups U, I, H and JT (Forster 2004). Thus, there is some consensus that the mtDNA of the first
European Homo sapiens was already different from African populations of the moment. The few individuals Paleolithic sequences available so far corroborate. However, it can not completely rule out the possibility of survival those of the first people who left Africa mitochondrial lines, and / or the existence of a continuous flow from the Palaeolithic between this continent and Eurasia. The results of this thesis demonstrate the substantial loss of genetic lineages from the Chalcolithic period to the present, what can be inferred that such loss has been place since the dawn of humanity.
If we accept that the mtDNA of the first inhabitants of modern Europe - and therefore, our Peninsula-haplogroups are ranked among the Europeans, African haplotypes entry Iberia must have occurred at later stages. Considering the data obtained, and without ruling out other minority waves from Africa, the most likely time for the entry of the lineages detected here is Neolithic.
In the sequences recovered from Cueva de Nerja there are two distinct groups differentiated. While the sequences of samples of the stratum Solutrean European haplogroups belong to the two other Neolithic samples exhibit African motifs. This distribution would be consistent with an African entry Neolithic which would be superimposed on a substrate Paleolithic European lineages. However, there are doubts about the attribution of the samples and 3NE level 2NE Solutrean-remember-as we recently reported (Dr. Miguel Cortes, personal communication). If so, all samples would be Neolithic. This scenario would see the entry of African lineages as much during the Paleolithic the Neolithic, accompanied, perhaps, a second contribution from Middle East today typically European lineages.
In the sequences of individuals from the Chalcolithic burial caves And Tres Montes Abauntz appear both African and European haplotypes, which could be explained from different situations: 1) persistence of ancestral stratum African roots mixed with 2) a mixture of immigrants from Africa during the Capsiense or Neolithic, with native European descent, 3) mixture of immigrants from Europe or the Middle East, indigenous descendants
African origin, 4) or in situ confluence of two related migration flows the Neolithic, one from Africa and one from Europe. The fact that sequences closely related to the Three Mountains are also in the Tell Halul deposit suggests that Africa may enter from stage Initial Neolithic.
Lineages "African" Tell Halul (samples H20 and 2H31) are now These days only two sub-Saharan African individuals belonging to the tribes Yoruba and Senegal. Another related haplotype Halul Tell-not described currently-listed five millennia later in the same geographic region in the village Mari (displayed 1MA12). This is to suggest that in the past, the presence of Sub-Saharan African lines L2a in the Middle East was superior to the present. It is to explain how it occurred, on the one hand, the arrival of these lines to the East East and, secondly, the presence of derivatives of this node in the Iberian Peninsula five millennia later. According to Salas et al. 2002, haplogroup L2a is rooted in Central Africa from where it spread to East Africa and West during the LGM. From East Africa to the Middle East could be extended as its predecessors L3- adding to the inherent variability of these populations. From the Middle East these lineages could arrive at the Iberian Peninsula with the Neolithic by two potential pathways: across the strait, as is Pericot-, or through the Pyrenees. If you could or would have been the second tract would be expected to detect "waste" of this ancient migration currently in Europe, which today has not been demonstrated.
If so important was the contribution of the African continent over the Peninsula should have been in it, even anecdotally, some "footprint genetics. " And so, in effect. Although the percentage of sub-Saharan African lineages present Iberia is currently very small-not more than 3% according to recent studies-not think should be attributed to recent gene flow from North Africa, as it is characteristic of sub-Saharan African lineages. Moreover, it is still possible to guess some affinity between some of the sequences of the Peninsula and Yoruba groups and Senegalese are so evident in our study (Plaza et al. 2003). This relationship is not maintained, however, for other genetic markers such as Y chromosome (Bosch et al. 2001), which may be due to genetic drift or a difference in migration patterns of men and women.
Eva Fernández Domínguez Polimorfismos de DNA mitocondrial en poblaciones antiguas de la cuenca mediterránea. Universitat de Barcelona. Departament de Biologia Animal, 2005 (PhD thesis) pp. 622-626
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The Bell-Beaker culture ca. 2800 – 1900 B.C, is the term for a widely scattered cultural phenomenon of prehistoric western Europe starting in the late Neolithic or Chalcolithic running into the early Bronze Age. The term was coined by John Abercromby, based on their distinctive pottery drinking vessels.
Beaker culture is defined by the common use of a pottery style — a beaker with a distinctive inverted bell-shaped profile found across the western part of Europe during the late 3rd millennium B.C. The pottery is well-made, usually red or red-brown in colour, and ornamented with horizontal bands of incised, excised or impressed patterns. The early Bell Beakers have been described as "International" in style, as they are found in all areas of the Bell Beaker culture. These include cord-impressed types, such as the "All Over Corded" (or "All Over Ornamented"), and the "Maritime" type, decorated with bands filled with impressions made with a comb or cord. Later characteristic regional styles developed.
It has been suggested that the beakers were designed for the consumption of alcohol and that the introduction of the substance to Europe may have fueled the beakers' spread. Beer and mead content have been identified from certain examples. However, not all Beakers were drinking cups. Some were used as reduction pots to smelt copper ores, others have some organic residues associated with food, and still others were employed as funerary urns. Beakers may have been a special form of pottery with a ritual character.
Many theories of the origins of the Bell Beakers have been put forward and subsequently challenged. The Iberian peninsula has been argued as the most likely place of Beaker origin. The oldest AOO shards have so far been found in northern Portugal. Bell Beaker is often suggested as a candidate for an early Indo-European culture or, more specifically, an ancestral proto-Celtic or proto-Italic (Italo-Celtic) culture.
The Kurgan hypothesis initially proposed by Marija Gimbutas derived the Beakers from east central European cultures that became "kurganized" by incursions of Steppe Tribes (White people). Her general proposition is supported, though with modifications, by archaeologists J. P. Mallory, and David Anthony.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Loosely translated from Spanish using Google Translator. As I always say. Testing the extant population don’t mean dick! Testing ancient population gives a clearer picture. %50 sub-saharans in southern Europe during Paleolithic and Neolithic times. What about the supra-saharans? What happened to these Africans? Were they exterminated during historical times? Circa “Europeans are new to Europe” a la Marcs thread .
The 50% Sub Saharan lineage refers to the mtDNA in one small region, Navarre. That is not all of Souhern Europe or even Iberia. Try and keep things in context, son. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: The 50% Sub Saharan lineage refers to the mtDNA in one small region, Navarre. That is not all of Souhern Europe or even Iberia. Try and keep things in context, son.
From the study:
The composition of haplotypes and haplogroups of ancient samples from the Near East and the Iberian Peninsula differs markedly from that found in the current populations of these geographical regions.
In the ancient Middle East shows highlights especially the absence of mitochondrial haplogroup J, U3, W and X, associated with the Neolithic expansion into Europe. This may be due either to the sample obtained is representative old-chronologically or geographically, populations of the Middle East that spread during the Neolithic either that these variants were not introduced in Europe during the Neolithic.
In the ancient sample of the Iberian Peninsula highlights the presence of 50% of sub-Saharan lines. These lines may have been introduced during the Solutrean, the Mesolithic or Neolithic.Posts: 314 | From: Home | Registered: Apr 2011
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Loosely translated from Spanish using Google Translator. As I always say. Testing the extant population don’t mean dick! Testing ancient population gives a clearer picture. %50 sub-saharans in southern Europe during Paleolithic and Neolithic times. What about the supra-saharans? What happened to these Africans? Were they exterminated during historical times? Circa “Europeans are new to Europe” a la Marcs thread .
The 50% Sub Saharan lineage refers to the mtDNA in one small region, Navarre. That is not all of Souhern Europe or even Iberia. Try and keep things in context, son.
You the same person who uses the small minority Guances to represent all Canarians and coastal Maghrebi to represent all Berbers! You are pathetic.
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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You're one to talk! Your hypocrisy is hilarious.
You the same person who uses the small minority Guances to represent all Canarians and coastal Maghrebi to represent all Berbers! You are pathetic.
I never said they wwere all Blondes, I said they looked like modern Berbers and they did. Which means I WIN!
-------------------- In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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The Iberian neolithic "sub-Saharan" mtDNA was found in the Pyrenees and in Andalusia, the top and the bottom of the peninsula.
Note Abaunz(L2) in the Pyrenees and Nerja (L1b) in Andalusia.
Melchior is dishonest and operates from a biased anti-black agenda refusing to see that North Africa was inhabited by its own local stock of blacks who were steadilyly infused with small numbers of foreign stock European whites up until the Islamic slave trade and modern times when whites were brought in in droves with white women even being bought by Berbers beyond the Atlas.
Melchior is just playing a game as his exclamation I WIN proves he's not at all interested in checking historical documentation on North Africa and its ongoing peopling.
Not a coastal NA that I personally know who will notfinally admit a Spanish, French, Italian, or Greek, mother, grandmother, or greatgrandmother. Especially Spanish for the Moroccans some of whom simply say their folk migrated from Spain after the expulsion of Moors, moriscos, and Jews.
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-------------------- The best way to know where you're going is to look at where you've been Posts: 7 | From: France | Registered: Oct 2011
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Don't try and be slick with me son, 50% was only reported in Aboauntz and Tres Montes.
Melchior is dishonest and operates from a biased anti-black agenda refusing to see that North Africa was inhabited by its own local stock of blacks who were steadilyly infused with small numbers of foreign stock European whites up until the Islamic slave trade and modern times when whites were brought in in droves with white women even being bought by Berbers beyond the Atlas.
Can you document all of these Europeans being sold to Berbers and not Pashas?
Melchior is just playing a game as his exclamation I WIN proves he's not at all interested in checking historical documentation on North Africa and its ongoing peopling.
Wrong if you can prove to me that a great part of the Europan slaves went to Berber villages as opposed to the large Arabized cities. I will accept it.
Not a coastal NA that I personally know who will notfinally admit a Spanish, French, Italian, or Greek, mother, grandmother, or greatgrandmother. Especially Spanish for the Moroccans some of whom simply say their folk migrated from Spain after the expulsion of Moors, moriscos, and Jews.
First how many NAs do you know and are they culturally Berbers or Arabized NAs?? And yes some communities in North Africa along the coast are direct descendants of expulsed Moors. That doesn't quite involve slavery..
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Hey I was just thinking of something. There was once a pariah group in France near the Pyreness called the Cagots. They were discriminated against for the longest time. Could it be because they retained some African traits that set them apart?
-------------------- In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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^Dumbass, how exactly do 50% Sub Saharan lineages reach Northern Spain, if there were no populations with predominant SSA lineages in the Maghreb?
If all those SSA lineages managed to reach Iberia, what makes you think they were absent or rare in coastal Northern Africa?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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Boy, it involves moriscos and other renegade white Spaniards.
quote:Originally posted by melanophobe: ... some communities in North Africa along the coast are direct descendants of expulsed Moors. That doesn't quite involve slavery..
You are totally incapable of reasoning, inductive or deductive.
All you do is promote melanophobia and you can't even do that right.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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50% is for the entire sample set. Prove you've read the thesis by supplying cited quote references as I have done.
Bet you can't find anything for any one place with 50% L derivatives and I bet you can't quote which L derivatives appear where at what frequency.
You're just an idealogue relict from the early 20th century wheezing your last gasp outmoded viewpoints
" La presencia de casi un 50% de linajes subsaharianos L1b, L2 y L3 en los yacimientos calcolíticos de Abauntz y Tres Montes, en Navarra, sugiere la existencia en el pasado de un flujo genético importante desde África hacia esta región geográfica"
If you can read Spanish which I can, they are saying that the nearly 50% Sub Saharan lineages were found in sites in the region of Navarre. Prove me wrong if you can. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Boy, it involves moriscos and other renegade white Spaniards.
quote:Originally posted by melanophobe: ... some communities in North Africa along the coast are direct descendants of expulsed Moors. That doesn't quite involve slavery..
You are totally incapable of reasoning, inductive or deductive.
All you do is promote melanophobia and you can't even do that right.
And I would say it's quite ambitious of you to believe you can even discern deductive or inductive reasoning skills in people. But let's not get into the ad hominem just yet. Moriscos were Moors who converted to Christianity. But many of the expulsed where just regualr old Moors. You want to claim they were White Spaniards beacuse you know what the memebers of these communities look like...they ain't Black.
Oh look here is midieval Spanish depiction of the Moors..
Don't see that many brothas. You think maybe the Spanish were raaycists and decided to get even with the Blacks by excluding them from their depictions??
Hmmmm..
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: 50% is for the entire sample set. Prove you've read the thesis by supplying cited quote references as I have done.
Bet you can't find anything for any one place with 50% L derivatives and I bet you can't quote which L derivatives appear where at what frequency.
You're just an idealogue relict from the early 20th century wheezing your last gasp outmoded viewpoints
" La presencia de casi un 50% de linajes subsaharianos L1b, L2 y L3 en los yacimientos calcolíticos de Abauntz y Tres Montes, en Navarra, sugiere la existencia en el pasado de un flujo genético importante desde África hacia esta región geográfica"
If you can read Spanish which I can, they are saying that the nearly 50% Sub Saharan lineages were found in sites in the region of Navarre. Prove me wrong if you can.
So? Navarre is in the northern part of Spain. If 50% of northern Iberians during the Chalcolithic had sub-Saharan mtDNA, what makes you think the south had lower sub-Saharan affinity during this time period?
This is a really neat finding, though I can't help but wonder what happened to these black Iberians. Did the Celts drive them away or something?
Posts: 7082 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Proving you wrong is easier than swatting flies.
You've just proved you haven't read the entire thesis. "A su vez, los haplotipos de las muestras 4NE y 5 NE del yacimiento de Nerja se engloban dentro del haplogrupo L1b."
No L3 was found in the neolithic samples of Dominguez' thesis. One has to know how to differentiate Dominguez' material from the material she quotes from others' reports.
You don't have the skill but to put up some out of context quote without having scoured the entire thesis.
The L3 was found in paleolithic, Near Eastern neolithic, and Mari samples but not in the Iberian Peninsula neolithic.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: 50% is for the entire sample set. Prove you've read the thesis by supplying cited quote references as I have done.
Bet you can't find anything for any one place with 50% L derivatives and I bet you can't quote which L derivatives appear where at what frequency.
You're just an idealogue relict from the early 20th century wheezing your last gasp outmoded viewpoints
" La presencia de casi un 50% de linajes subsaharianos L1b, L2 y L3 en los yacimientos calcolíticos de Abauntz y Tres Montes, en Navarra, sugiere la existencia en el pasado de un flujo genético importante desde África hacia esta región geográfica"
If you can read Spanish which I can, they are saying that the nearly 50% Sub Saharan lineages were found in sites in the region of Navarre. Prove me wrong if you can.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
So? Navarre is in the northern part of Spain. If 50% of northern Iberians during the Chalcolithic had sub-Saharan mtDNA, what makes you think the south had lower sub-Saharan affinity during this time period?
This is a really neat finding, though I can't help but wonder what happened to these black Iberians. Did the Celts drive them away or something?
Well all we have is a piece of a puzzle. I would like to know what the male lineages in the region were. Also the area around the pyrenees could serve as a refuge. It's also where the Basque live which makes even stranger. And again the 50% pertains to those two sites in Navarre. I don't know the percentage in the other sites listed. But I don't think it's necesarily enough of a reason to believe that Iberia was overruning with Sub Saharans. And if you will notice all the sites are for the most part near the periphery of Spain with nothing is the center. Hmmmmmm.
-------------------- In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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posted
You are correct about the term morisco. I'm not used to this rapid fire debate technique. Normally I'd've taken the time to find the word for renegade Spaniards who converted to Islam not that the majority of expellees were descended from Spaniards who willingly converted to Islam many generations earlier than expulsion.
Where is the thread that put up the figures of Spanish Muslims by ethnic origin showing Berbers and Arabs were in time the minority of the Muslim population?
posted
"A su vez, los haplotipos de las muestras 4NE y 5 NE del yacimiento de Nerja se engloban dentro del haplogrupo L1b."
No L3 was found in the neolithic samples of Dominguez'thesis. One has to know how to differentiate Dominguez'material from the material she quotes from others' reports.
That particular quote is not supporting what you are saying.
The L3 was found in paleolithic, Near Eastern neolithic,and Mari samples but not in the Iberian Peninsula neolithic.
Umm getting back to your initial statement where is your proof that the 50% pertains to the entire sample set, hmm?
-------------------- In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: You are correct about the term morisco. I'm not used to this rapid fire debate technique. Normally I'd've taken the time to find the word for renegade Spaniards who converted to Islam not that the majority of expellees were descended from Spaniards who willingly converted to Islam many generations earlier than expulsion.
Where is the thread that put up the figures of Spanish Muslims by ethnic origin showing Berbers and Arabs were in time the minority of the Muslim population?
Maybe you are thinking of Mozarabs? But I think they were still Christians. Anyway I got to go. I'll be back Tomorrow.
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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The 50% refers partially to Abauntz way up north by the border in the the Pyrenees and Nerja way down south by the sea in Andalusia.
Real life beckons me. In the meantime try this.
List the total number of Dominguez' samples and the separate numbers for each L derivative of Dominguez' neolithic (not any paleolithic) samples.
quote:Originally posted by melchior7: [b]So? Navarre is in the northern part of Spain. If 50% of northern Iberians during the Chalcolithic had sub-Saharan mtDNA, ..
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Africa began at the Pyrenees said Napoleon,and by the looks of it he wasn't kiddin, there is a reason I kept posting the signet rings and the links to the Lesbos coins as it shows continuity and it lead right up to the Islamic era Moors and even today's economic migrations of Africans pressing into Europe
As for what became of them Truthcentric asked..sex! more likely,they were absorbed into the non African population but were reinforced periodically to this day,some eras their presence were greater than others.
And as per our discussion on another thread between you and Osirion about the presence of blacks with broad features north of the Atlas with the sterotype notions of them being mare slaves or a few foreigners never held water.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by malcontent7: I never said they were all Blondes, I said they looked like modern Berbers and they did. Which means I WIN!
Even though modern Berbers vary in appearance since MOST Canarians were black as are many Berbers from the Sahara to the Atlas and in certain areas near the coast.
Which means YOU LOSE!
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The Iberian neolithic "sub-Saharan" mtDNA was found in the Pyrenees and in Andalusia, the top and the bottom of the peninsula.
Note Abaunz(L2) in the Pyrenees and Nerja (L1b) in Andalusia.
Melchior is dishonest and operates from a biased anti-black agenda refusing to see that North Africa was inhabited by its own local stock of blacks who were steadilyly infused with small numbers of foreign stock European whites up until the Islamic slave trade and modern times when whites were brought in in droves with white women even being bought by Berbers beyond the Atlas.
Melchior is just playing a game as his exclamation I WIN proves he's not at all interested in checking historical documentation on North Africa and its ongoing peopling.
Not a coastal NA that I personally know who will notfinally admit a Spanish, French, Italian, or Greek, mother, grandmother, or greatgrandmother. Especially Spanish for the Moroccans some of whom simply say their folk migrated from Spain after the expulsion of Moors, moriscos, and Jews.
And this is news?? LOLPosts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: You don't have the slightest idea of what you're talking about because you haven't even read the entire thesis.
Note Abauntz(L2) in the Pyrenees and Nerja(L1b) in Andalusia.
50% is for the entire sample set. Prove you've read the thesis by supplying cited quote references as I have done.
Bet you can't find anything for any one place with 50% L derivatives and I bet you can't quote which L derivatives appear where at what frequency.
You're just an idealogue relict from the early 20th century wheezing your last gasp outmoded viewpoints.
LOL
As I said, his hypocrisy is hilarious. This is the same fool that loves to stress and emphasize European mt lineages like H and V in North Africa allegedly from prehistoric times, but now that we cite a study showing African mt lineages in southern Europe also from around the same periods, he desperately begins spinning.
He first tries to skewer the numbers saying the frequencies are lower and from minute populations than what is actually stated. Then he tries to attribute them to "slaves". LOL This guy is a pathetic joke.
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Africa began at the Pyrenees said Napoleon,and by the looks of it he wasn't kiddin, there is a reason I kept posting the signet rings and the links to the Lesbos coins as it shows continuity and it lead right up to the Islamic era Moors and even today's economic migrations of Africans pressing into Europe
As for what became of them Truthcentric asked..sex! more likely,they were absorbed into the non African population but were reinforced periodically to this day,some eras their presence were greater than others.
And as per our discussion on another thread between you and Osirion about the presence of blacks with broad features north of the Atlas with the sterotype notions of them being mare slaves or a few foreigners never held water.
quote:Originally posted 18 November, 2009 by dana marniche: Here's the Greek Strabo, but I guess more gibberish and too old a source for you too or maybe too Mediterranean.
"Ephorus says the Tartessians report that Ethiopians overran Libya as far as Dyris, and that some of them stayed in Dyris, while others occupied a great part of the sea-board; and he conjectures it was from this circumstance that Homer spoke as he did: 'Ethiopians that are sundered in twain, the farthermost of men.'"
Strabo Geography 1.2.26
Now what will any Greek historian or European geneticist be able to say that will convince me that at one time some black people did not settled in North Africa along the coast as far as the Atlas. Absolutely NOTHING - because every historian knows what "Ethiopians" looked like, that seaboard meant "the coast" and that "Libya" stood for NORTH AFRICA and thankfully the skeletal evidence confirms it as do other disciplines. That is how to put two and two together and use historical method know it all.
If that's not enough historical method for you than you better continue on your education past history teacher certificate and into graduate school.
Note that Dyris is "Berber" for Mount Atlas per Strabo 17.3.2
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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"As I said, his hypocrisy is hilarious. This is the same fool that loves to stress and emphasize European mt lineages like H and V in North Africa allegedly from prehistoric times, but now that we cite a study showing African mt lineages in southern Europe also from around the same periods, he desperately begins spinning.
He first tries to skewer the numbers saying the frequencies are lower and from minute populations than what is actually stated. Then he tries to attribute them to "slaves". LOL This guy is a pathetic joke"
And I stand by what I say. About Canarians they were similar to the Berbers and the majority were not Black!
Also don't think you really understand Altakruri's little spanish study..unfortunately neither does he. I have yet to see where the study implies that Iberia once had 50% Sub Sharan dna. So far we have one incidence where nearly half the women in one site had SS mtDNA. Technically that means the majority of women didn't. LOL! And that is just one site. There are only a few sites scattered around the EDGE of Iberia. And you all jump to extreme conclusions that Spain was mostly all Black or its where Africa begins..Lol. You all are just too dumb. LMAO!
Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by EuroNutSlayer: LOL! Look at garrig being a silly nanny, boy I know who else this would upset Jeff LOL LMBAO!
Actually you should be happy that most of these posters don't seem to be any more intelligent than you. Well maybe...just a little bit. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Africa began at the Pyrenees said Napoleon,and by the looks of it he wasn't kiddin, there is a reason I kept posting the signet rings and the links to the Lesbos coins as it shows continuity and it lead right up to the Islamic era Moors and even today's economic migrations of Africans pressing into Europe
As for what became of them Truthcentric asked..sex! more likely,they were absorbed into the non African population but were reinforced periodically to this day,some eras their presence were greater than others.
And as per our discussion on another thread between you and Osirion about the presence of blacks with broad features north of the Atlas with the sterotype notions of them being mare slaves or a few foreigners never held water.
quote:Originally posted 18 November, 2009 by dana marniche: Here's the Greek Strabo, but I guess more gibberish and too old a source for you too or maybe too Mediterranean.
"Ephorus says the Tartessians report that Ethiopians overran Libya as far as Dyris, and that some of them stayed in Dyris, while others occupied a great part of the sea-board; and he conjectures it was from this circumstance that Homer spoke as he did: 'Ethiopians that are sundered in twain, the farthermost of men.'"
Strabo Geography 1.2.26
Now what will any Greek historian or European geneticist be able to say that will convince me that at one time some black people did not settled in North Africa along the coast as far as the Atlas. Absolutely NOTHING - because every historian knows what "Ethiopians" looked like, that seaboard meant "the coast" and that "Libya" stood for NORTH AFRICA and thankfully the skeletal evidence confirms it as do other disciplines. That is how to put two and two together and use historical method know it all.
If that's not enough historical method for you than you better continue on your education past history teacher certificate and into graduate school.
Note that Dyris is "Berber" for Mount Atlas per Strabo 17.3.2
Of course the Malcontent ignores this. Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by melchior7: Also don't think you really understand Altakruri's little spanish study..unfortunately neither does he. I have yet to see where the study implies that Iberia once had 50% Sub Sharan dna. So far we have one incidence where nearly half the women in one site had SS mtDNA.
Another failing grade for you. You prove you have neither digested nor analyzed FernandezDominguez' thesis discussion section 2.2.2.2. African genetic contribution to the European gene pool -- posted days ago -- nor have you examined her Tables D1 and D11.
The high percentage of sampled ancient mitochondrial lineages currently found only in sub-Saharan Africa suggests the roots of this gene flow go much further back in the past, at least to the Neolithic. This is particularly evident in ancient samples of the Iberian Peninsula where 5 of the 11 complete sequences recovered, and at least 1 of the 9 partial sequences, can be attributed unequivocally to subSaharan African haplogroups.
Bottom line mtDNA haplogroups now equated to Africans south of the Sahara were found in neolithic Iberia at Navarra (Pyrenees) and Malaga (Andalusia).
Nothing you can say changes the facts L2 (Navarre) and L1b (Malaga) people were found respectively at the northernmost and southern entrance points of the peninsula way back in the neolithic/chalcolithic.
You can't minimalize the importance of this information.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote: Originally posted by melchior7:Actually you should be happy that most of these posters don't seem to be any more intelligent than you. Well maybe...just a little bit [QUOTE]
LOL shut up you quack! Posts: 90 | Registered: Oct 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^Dumbass, how exactly do 50% Sub Saharan lineages reach Northern Spain, if there were no populations with predominant SSA lineages in the Maghreb?
If all those SSA lineages managed to reach Iberia, what makes you think they were absent or rare in coastal Northern Africa?
Hasn't there been enough literature on the remains of Dhar Tichitt to suggest Mande settlements in Mauritania dating 2000 BC or so?
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Sage! More data. . .on entry of Africans(including SSA) across Gibralta. As I said, DNA testing on ancient remains is going to punch a lot of holes in egos. They better put a lid on it . . .quick!
ha! Ha! Ha! Thing is . Almost all develop nations have this tool. from Australia, to Spain, to Russua, to South Africa. It will be difficult to control DNA result getting out there. And with Google translator. "Man this is exciting times" for us truth seekers.
Hey CT. Stop watching YouTube and watch this onfold.
Nice find, Evergreen.
I have said it in the black European art thread, and will say it again; if Africa is just a stone's throw away from Europe, such that illegal African immigration from Africa to Europe is still a problem and has been a problem in Europe for decades now because of Europe's geographical proximity to africa; and there was an ice age land bridge connecting the British Isles and Western Europe to Africa via the gibralter straits, why wouldn't Blacks Africans have been the first settlers and builders of civilization in Europe?
Common sense and logic, cannot override indoctrination and personal feelings for some "knowledgeable" individuals here it seems. I mean we actually have direct scientific literature, stating that without a shadow of doubt that BLACKS WERE THE FIRST SETTLERS OF EUROPE! We have the Black carpathian man, the German Black bog people, and the peat bog men in Denmark, whom all were BLACK!
We also have INDIGENOUS Blacks in the Arabian peninsula, and even as far away as places like Kuwait, the Levant, Iran/Iraq area, to the Indian sub continent, to places like Australia, the Andaman Islands, the Phillipines, Papa New Guinea, New Zealand, South East Asia, Oceania etc etc etc.
And those regions are FAR FAR FAR more further from Africa, THEN EUROPE IS! Europe IS RIGHT NEXT DOOR TO AFRICA! So why wouldn't Blacks be native & indigenous to Europe based on simple deductive logic and given the above circumstances?
Even the term EUROPE, REFERS TO A BLACK PHOENICIAN PRINCESS, and THE TERM WAS NEVER CREATED OR CONCEIVED TO INCLUDE OR TALLY IN MODERN DAY WHITE EUROPEANS!
Modern day White Europeans are recent Siberian/Eurasian steppe migrants/immigrants/invaders, and transplants, and their resultant mixed mongrel off-spring in Europe. Even many of the modern white european genetic haplogroups/genes are not found in Ancient Europeans, like these Bell Beaker people or Otzi the Ice man etc etc.
CLEARLY there were major episodes of population influx's, immigration, migrations and replacements starting from the late Neolithic to 2500 BC to ending around the dark ages in Europe; FROM OUTSIDE OF EUROPE, PARTICUALLY THE EURASIAN STEPPE REGIONS AND FROM ISOLATED CORNERS OF EUROPE, LIKE NORTH EAST EUROPE; such that the Bell Beaker and original Neolithic Black European populations no longer exist in Europe today...
And the Bell Beaker gene results posted in this thread seems to show evidence and clues of this. Central Asia and Siberia IS MORE FARTHER FROM EUROPE, THEN AFRICA IS GEOGRAPHIC WISE! PARTICULARLY THE REGIONS IN CENTRAL ASIA AND SIBERIA, WHERE WHITE INDO-EUROPEANS WERE SAID TO ORIGINATE AND MIGRATE TO EUROPE FROM, IN ANCIENT TIMES!
I covered and illustrated this here in this map that I posted before here:
If anything, IT'S STRANGE THAT MODERN DAY WHITES ARE CONSIDERED INDIGENOUS AND NATIVE TO EUROPE, WHNE THEY AREN'T! AND WE HAVE COUNTLESS ANCIENT GRECO-ROMAN RECORDS, ARCHEOLOGICAL RECORDS, GENETIC AND MEDICAL DATA, HISTORICAL RECORDS, AND ANECDOTAL ACCOUNTS THAT PROVE THAT THEY AREN'T! MODERN DAY WHITE EUROPEANS HAVE MORE DEEPER ROOTS IN SIBERIA AND CENTRAL ASIA/SOUTH ASIA THEN THEY DO IN EUROPE!
Yet people cannot seem to see past the obvious lies and propaganda and falsehoods, that White Europeans seem to have cast through the public and in the mainstream which is sad. Critical thinking and deductive skills are becoming a scarce commodity in this day and age it seems.....
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