posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:

___________________________________________________________________________^^^^Libyan
tomb of Ramses III
1186–1155 BC




Mummy, Takarkori. Libya
radiocarbon date, about 6,000 years ago

*note: the term "Caucasian" has been disproven by Egyptsearch associates please revise terminology

---

As you wish - change it to "fair-skinned" or "white BERBER TRIBE" Still waiting for anyone to make mention of one before the 16th century.



BTW - Paintings of ancient Fulani people (ancestors of millions of African Americans) wearing their Fulani hairstyle and with the paint coming off don't mean their was any fair-skinned BERBER TRIBE on record.

Neither do paintings of tribes of "peoples of the sea" i.e. Scythians and proto-Greeks, who mixed with them. They have nothing to do with the BERBER tribes mentioned by Byzantine and Arab writers. Neither do descendants of Vandals, Romans, Greeks, Scythians, Greco-Romans, European slaves, Turkoman, Turks (East Europeans), or Syrians.






If you are going to keep posting photos from the mathilda site you've gotta do better than that.lol!

Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Good Question Dana, lets examine what the Egyptians and eventually the Lybians themselves represented..

Lybians of the Egyptian/Lybian Oasis..

Dakhla:

The master of the house ..





Above the front door, travel by boat.
Pilgrimage to Abydos



26th Lybian Dynasty Tomb..

The founder of the dynasty was Psammetichus I, originally a member of the Libyan royal house in Saïs (which is why the period is also called the Saite Period). Psammetichus originally ruled in Egypt with the help of Assyria and ruled over Lower Egypt with other local princes (Herodotus speaks of twelve kings). With the help of Greek and Carian mercenaries he eventually succeeded in ruling alone.

---

I've seen some of these paintings previously, but not all of them. Thanks for the extras. I didn't know the guy below was also a Libyan pharaoh.


His name was Input II of the 25th dynasty

Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
[qb]
___________________________________________________________________________^^^^Libyan
tomb of Ramses III
1186–1155 BC




Mummy, Takarkori. Libya
radiocarbon date, about 6,000 years ago

*note: the term "Caucasian" has been disproven by Egyptsearch associates please revise terminology

---

As you wish - change it to "fair-skinned" or "white BERBER TRIBE" Still waiting for anyone to make mention of one before the 16th century.



BTW - Paintings of ancient Fulani people with the paint wearing off and wearing their Fulani hairstyle with the paint coming off don't mean their was any fair-skinned BERBER TRIBE on record.

---

the Libyans depicted in ancient Egyptian art are Fulani?
Dana, stop making up stuff.




first King of Numidia

Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
[qb]
___________________________________________________________________________^^^^Libyan
tomb of Ramses III
1186–1155 BC




Mummy, Takarkori. Libya
radiocarbon date, about 6,000 years ago

*note: the term "Caucasian" has been disproven by Egyptsearch associates please revise terminology

---

As you wish - change it to "fair-skinned" or "white BERBER TRIBE" Still waiting for anyone to make mention of one before the 16th century.



BTW - Paintings of ancient Fulani people with the paint wearing off and wearing their Fulani hairstyle with the paint coming off don't mean their was any fair-skinned BERBER TRIBE on record.

---

the Libyans depicted in ancient Egyptian art are Fulani?
Dana, stop making up stuff.




first King of Numidia

---

Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

---

Dynasty of Ancient Egypt 1069-945 BCE, 124 years, consisting of 7 kings, belonging to the Third Intermediate Period.
This dynasty was ruled from Tanis in Lower Egypt, but Egypt was effectively a divided country during this era.
The north was ruled by the kings, the Middle and Upper Egypt was under the effective control of the High Priests of Amon at Thebes. He was even the commander of the army of the whole country.
The dividing line between Tanite and Theban Egypt appears to have been at the site of Teudjoi, south of the entrance to the oasis of Fayoum.
The political fragmentation between north and south predates the dynasty, Egypt had been divided for along period during the reign of Ramses 11, the last king of the 20th Dynasty. His period had been one of hard civil wars between the king and the High Priest of Amon in Thebes.
Much of strength of the Theban office was established by chief general Herihor, while Piankh established a hereditary priestly and military dynasty. This regional dynasty would be replaced by the family of Osorkon the Elder, who was of Meshwesh Libyan origin. From this, would eventually emerge the 22nd Dynasty of the whole of Egypt.
Between the kings at Tanis and the effective rulers in Thebes, the situation was stable, without confrontations. As a matter of fact, Theban documents were dated according ot the kings of Tanis. There were close family links between Tanis and Thebes.
The links were so stong that in 959, the Theban high priest became king in Tanis: Psusennes 2. He is considered the last ruler of the 21st; the change into the 22nd Dynasty was undramatic, coming from his own family: Its 2nd ruler, Osorkon 1, was Psusennes 2's son.
There appears to have been a Libyan element in the ruling classes both in Thebes and Tanis. Eventually, with the next dynasty, the 22nd, the Libyans emerged as the rulers of Egypt.
Egypt of this time was largely a theocracy, and political power was vested in the god Amon himself. The kings of Tanis built an enormous temple dedicated to him, as well as large temples to other central Theban gods, where even the layout resembled that of the temples at Karnak. In the case of King Psusennes 1 he was also a high priest of Amon.
Royal burials of this period often reused artefacts of fresh graves, causing the available material limited for modern researchers. Yet, this is an indicator of relative poverty of the society, and perhaps even of weak social structures (lack of respect of the recently deceased). Perhaps because of impatience of the kings of a new capital,perhaps because of economic shortcomings, perhaps because of cultural and technological decline; Tanis was largely built from material taken from other sites, especially the town of Piramesse together with other sites in the Nile Delta.
On foreign fronts, the federation of the Philistines served as a buffer for the emerging kingdom of Israel. During the reign of Israeli king Solomon, Egypt chose diplomatic methods of keeping up good relations, marrying Egyptian princesses and offering territory as dowry. This indicates, more than anything, Egyptian economic and military weakness.

---

Smendes




Sheshonq II




Pseusennes I

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Golden_Mask_of_Psusennes_I.jpg

Pinudjem I

Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
21st "Meshwesh" Lybian Dynasty..

quote:

---

Dynasty of Ancient Egypt 1069-945 BCE, 124 years, consisting of 7 kings, belonging to the Third Intermediate Period.
This dynasty was ruled from Tanis in Lower Egypt, but Egypt was effectively a divided country during this era.
The north was ruled by the kings, the Middle and Upper Egypt was under the effective control of the High Priests of Amon at Thebes. He was even the commander of the army of the whole country.
The dividing line between Tanite and Theban Egypt appears to have been at the site of Teudjoi, south of the entrance to the oasis of Fayoum.
The political fragmentation between north and south predates the dynasty, Egypt had been divided for along period during the reign of Ramses 11, the last king of the 20th Dynasty. His period had been one of hard civil wars between the king and the High Priest of Amon in Thebes.
Much of strength of the Theban office was established by chief general Herihor, while Piankh established a hereditary priestly and military dynasty. This regional dynasty would be replaced by the family of Osorkon the Elder, who was of Meshwesh Libyan origin. From this, would eventually emerge the 22nd Dynasty of the whole of Egypt.
Between the kings at Tanis and the effective rulers in Thebes, the situation was stable, without confrontations. As a matter of fact, Theban documents were dated according ot the kings of Tanis. There were close family links between Tanis and Thebes.
The links were so stong that in 959, the Theban high priest became king in Tanis: Psusennes 2. He is considered the last ruler of the 21st; the change into the 22nd Dynasty was undramatic, coming from his own family: Its 2nd ruler, Osorkon 1, was Psusennes 2's son.
There appears to have been a Libyan element in the ruling classes both in Thebes and Tanis. Eventually, with the next dynasty, the 22nd, the Libyans emerged as the rulers of Egypt.
Egypt of this time was largely a theocracy, and political power was vested in the god Amon himself. The kings of Tanis built an enormous temple dedicated to him, as well as large temples to other central Theban gods, where even the layout resembled that of the temples at Karnak. In the case of King Psusennes 1 he was also a high priest of Amon.
Royal burials of this period often reused artefacts of fresh graves, causing the available material limited for modern researchers. Yet, this is an indicator of relative poverty of the society, and perhaps even of weak social structures (lack of respect of the recently deceased). Perhaps because of impatience of the kings of a new capital,perhaps because of economic shortcomings, perhaps because of cultural and technological decline; Tanis was largely built from material taken from other sites, especially the town of Piramesse together with other sites in the Nile Delta.
On foreign fronts, the federation of the Philistines served as a buffer for the emerging kingdom of Israel. During the reign of Israeli king Solomon, Egypt chose diplomatic methods of keeping up good relations, marrying Egyptian princesses and offering territory as dowry. This indicates, more than anything, Egyptian economic and military weakness.

---

Smendes




Sheshonq II




/bodp.jpg[/IMG]

---

Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
Romans come from Rome dimwitty.lol! This is the profile of my Kabyle ex husband from Souk Ahras where the Romans settled.

Naturally his grandfather told him they came from Sicily. Just because a coin existed under Massinissa doesn't make him a Tuareg.

YOU LOSE!

---

did I say he was Tuareg?

dana your husband was Kabyle?

The Kabyle people are the largest homogeneous Algerian cultural-linguistic-ethnic community and the largest nation in North Africa to be considered exclusively Berber.

Kabylia is a series of villages on the peaks [altitude 6000–9000 ft.] of the eastern part of the Atlas (100 km east of Algiers) In ancient times, Kabylia was an empty, rocky and wild area, inhabited by various animals including bears, wild boar, wolves, monkeys, eagles, and even hyenas. No human settlement is mentioned in any historical books documenting the peaceful period between Numidians (east northern Africa approx. modern Algeria + Tunisia) with Rome through the alliance and dating back to 500 BC, against the Phoenicians.

The term Berber, progressively was applied to all native north Africans, starting their invasion in 1871. Until then, and for centuries since the departure of Rome, North Africa is a vast territory occupied by a confederation of various Peoples and city-states, without a central power. Of these the Libyans to the Mauritanians, the Moors(Morocco), the Tunisians, the Touaregs (Sahel/Desert), the Mzab, the Chenouas, the Chaouis and Kabyles.



^^^this is a Fulani? dana stop playin

Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
Romans come from Rome dimwitty.lol! This is the profile of my Kabyle ex husband from Souk Ahras where the Romans settled.

Naturally his grandfather told him they came from Sicily. Just because a coin existed under Massinissa doesn't make him a Tuareg.

YOU LOSE!

---

did I say he was Tuareg?

dana your husband was Kabyle?

The Kabyle people are the largest homogeneous Algerian cultural-linguistic-ethnic community and the largest nation in North Africa to be considered exclusively Berber.

Kabylia is a series of villages on the peaks [altitude 6000–9000 ft.] of the eastern part of the Atlas (100 km east of Algiers) In ancient times, Kabylia was an empty, rocky and wild area, inhabited by various animals including bears, wild boar, wolves, monkeys, eagles, and even hyenas. No human settlement is mentioned in any historical books documenting the peaceful period between Numidians (east northern Africa approx. modern Algeria + Tunisia) with Rome through the alliance and dating back to 500 BC, against the Phoenicians.

The term Berber, progressively was applied to all native north Africans, starting their invasion in 1871. Until then, and for centuries since the departure of Rome, North Africa is a vast territory occupied by a confederation of various Peoples and city-states, without a central power. Of these the Libyans to the Mauritanians, the Moors(Morocco), the Tunisians, the Touaregs (Sahel/Desert), the Mzab, the Chenouas, the Chaouis and Kabyles.



^^^this is a Fulani? dana stop playin

---

Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
What Latins like Luxurious thought of the Garamantes is below showing how European academics made up nonsense about white Garamantes and Gaitules


From a Professor John Sparks - EuroAmerican professor of classics - New York University wrote

an article on what "Was White Beautiful in Vandal Africa?" chapter in G.K. Bhambra, D. Orrells, T. Roynon, edd. African Athena: New Agendas epxected publishing date 1/15/2012


"Two spottepigramme viciously attack the blackness of ‘Berber’ Garamantes from the African interior. AL183Riese labels a black man, possibly a successful athlete (Stevens,Kay), as ‘dregs that have invaded our space,’ ‘a black homeboy (verna) that loves his pitchy skin,’ an inhuman specter so dreadful that Dis should hire ‘the ink-blackened monster’ to guard the doors of hell. Luxorius 329R calls black Garamantian women ugly and white Pontic women beautiful indicating apt local color in his West-East geographical twist on the South-North Greek racial dichotomy of Ethiopians and Thracians/Scythians (Xenoph. fr.16Diehls).
Luxorius praises white, feminine beauty in classic terms (364R), but with stronger cultural relevance in tributes to the white Vandal women among his ruling-class patrons (18R.36-7; 345R.6; George). By contrast, he castigates the dancer Gattula (361,362R), whose name may suggest Gaetulian heritage (Rosenblum; Melanogaetuli
Ptol. 4.6.5) and her blackness (gattula/francolin-black partridge TLL 1629), as the epitome of horrifying ugliness, an ominous evil who disgusts audiences with her gyrating body and attracts only corpses with the fruits of her success."

---

Your source mentions Garamantes from the African INTERIOR.

And this is before the 16th century:

"The Tunisian traveler Ibn Battuta specified a boundary of the Black lands when he wrote "We then arrived at the town of Iwalatan... Iwalatan is the northernmost province of the Blacks."7 Iwalatan, presently Walata/Oualata near the southeast corner of Mauritania, sits near the southern limit of the Sahara desert. The lands north of that, which make up the main bulk of Berber territory, were not counted by Ibn Battuta as among the black lands.

In the course of his travels, he observed a notably pale Berber tribe which he described as follows:

"At length we arrived among the Bardama. They are a Berber tribe.[...] The Bardama women are the most perfect in beauty, most remarkable in their appearance, of the purest white in their complexion and very fat."8

The writer al-'Umari counted even the southernmost Berber tribes as white:

"In the north of the country of Mali, there are Berber tribes who are white and are under [the Sultan of Mali's] dominion .... They are: the Yatansir, the Shagharasan, the Maddusa and the Lamtuna."9

Also the Greeks refered to some Libyan and Tunisian Berbers as "Leuco-Ethiopians"


I should mention as well that there is a historical tradition among muslims that Tariq the Berber general who led the Moors into Spain was from a familiy of fair haired Berbers.

This is from an Islamic site.

"Through Taariq Ibn Ziyaad, a Muslim state was established in Andalusia, known nowadays as Spain and Portugal. This state lasted for eight centuries. This great hero was not originally an Arab, rather he was one of the Berbers who lived in Morocco. Many of these Berbers embraced Islam, including `Abdullaah, the grandfather of Taariq.`Abdullaah is the first Arab Muslim name in his family but the rest of his grandfathers were Berbers who were distinctly tall and blond."
http://www.islamweb.net/kidsen/Kids%20Corner%201,2/subjects/tarekibnzeyad1.html

But even you if you doubt that Europeans crossed over from Iberia during the LGM. Or that a Back migration of Near Easterners entered North Africa from the East evern earlier, you can not deny that Germanic tribes like the Vandals settled in North Africa. Reportedly 80,000 strong, many settled in among the Kabyle after their little empire was crushed. Thats a documented fact. And you can not say that Kabyles are not Berbers jsut becuase they have Vandal ancestry. That would be ridiculous since the intermixture with Vandals would have occured about 1500 years ago! Besides many other Berber tribes have similar traits.

The alternate scenario of so many European slaves being sent to live among rural Berber popluations is a hard sell. Records show most of the slaves went to the major urban centers.

"The historian Robert C. Davis has estimated that between 1530 and 1780 1-1.25 million Europeans were captured and enslaved in North Africa, principally in Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli, with further captives in Istanbul and Salé." Ekin, Des (2006). The Stolen Village - Baltimore and the Barbary Pirates. OBrien.


How is it these recessive White traits have survived for so long if the majority of Berbers were Blacks??



The French put an end to much of the White slavery when they conquered the Maghreb in 1830!

And what did you say. The Egyptian depictions of Libyans are Fulanis????

Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Speaking of Mummies here is some Lybian Mummies Mathilda wont host..








The mummy Nesikhonsu A is a supreme example of 21st Dynasty (c. 1070-945 B.C.) embalming. Her body was molded to retain a lifelike form, stones were inlaid under her eyelids, and flowers were wrapped around her toes. Like most ancient Egyptians, this wife of a pharaoh died young. But her body was prepared for a glorious afterlife.

Nesitanebetashrua A -21st dynasty queen



of Course Uan...





Djedptahiuankh also dates to the 21st Dynasty. His body cavity was packed with lichen, his mouth filled with sawdust, and sculpted stone eyes were inserted under his half-closed lids.

---

Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
What Latins like Luxurious thought of the Garamantes is below showing how European academics made up nonsense about white Garamantes and Gaitules


From a Professor John Sparks - EuroAmerican professor of classics - New York University wrote

an article on what "Was White Beautiful in Vandal Africa?" chapter in G.K. Bhambra, D. Orrells, T. Roynon, edd. African Athena: New Agendas epxected publishing date 1/15/2012


"Two spottepigramme viciously attack the blackness of ‘Berber’ Garamantes from the African interior. AL183Riese labels a black man, possibly a successful athlete (Stevens,Kay), as ‘dregs that have invaded our space,’ ‘a black homeboy (verna) that loves his pitchy skin,’ an inhuman specter so dreadful that Dis should hire ‘the ink-blackened monster’ to guard the doors of hell. Luxorius 329R calls black Garamantian women ugly and white Pontic women beautiful indicating apt local color in his West-East geographical twist on the South-North Greek racial dichotomy of Ethiopians and Thracians/Scythians (Xenoph. fr.16Diehls).
Luxorius praises white, feminine beauty in classic terms (364R), but with stronger cultural relevance in tributes to the white Vandal women among his ruling-class patrons (18R.36-7; 345R.6; George). By contrast, he castigates the dancer Gattula (361,362R), whose name may suggest Gaetulian heritage (Rosenblum; Melanogaetuli
Ptol. 4.6.5) and her blackness (gattula/francolin-black partridge TLL 1629), as the epitome of horrifying ugliness, an ominous evil who disgusts audiences with her gyrating body and attracts only corpses with the fruits of her success."

---

Your source mentions Garamantes from the African INTERIOR.

And this is before the 16th century:

"The Tunisian traveler Ibn Battuta specified a boundary of the Black lands when he wrote "We then arrived at the town of Iwalatan... Iwalatan is the northernmost province of the Blacks."7 Iwalatan, presently Walata/Oualata near the southeast corner of Mauritania, sits near the southern limit of the Sahara desert. The lands north of that, which make up the main bulk of Berber territory, were not counted by Ibn Battuta as among the black lands.

In the course of his travels, he observed a notably pale Berber tribe which he described as follows:

"At length we arrived among the Bardama. They are a Berber tribe.[...] The Bardama women are the most perfect in beauty, most remarkable in their appearance, of the purest white in their complexion and very fat."8

The writer al-'Umari counted even the southernmost Berber tribes as white:

"In the north of the country of Mali, there are Berber tribes who are white and are under [the Sultan of Mali's] dominion .... They are: the Yatansir, the Shagharasan, the Maddusa and the Lamtuna."9

Also the Greeks refered to some Libyan and Tunisian Berbers as "Leuco-Ethiopians"


I should mention as well that there is a historical tradition among muslims that Tariq the Berber general who led the Moors into Spain was from a familiy of fair haired Berbers.

This is from an Islamic site.

"Through Taariq Ibn Ziyaad, a Muslim state was established in Andalusia, known nowadays as Spain and Portugal. This state lasted for eight centuries. This great hero was not originally an Arab, rather he was one of the Berbers who lived in Morocco. Many of these Berbers embraced Islam, including `Abdullaah, the grandfather of Taariq.`Abdullaah is the first Arab Muslim name in his family but the rest of his grandfathers were Berbers who were distinctly tall and blond."
http://www.islamweb.net/kidsen/Kids%20Corner%201,2/subjects/tarekibnzeyad1.html

But even you if you doubt that Europeans crossed over from Iberia during the LGM. Or that a Back migration of Near Easterners entered North Africa from the East evern earlier, you can not deny that Germanic tribes like the Vandals settled in North Africa. Reportedly 80,000 strong, many settled in among the Kabyle after their little empire was crushed. Thats a documented fact.
The alternate scenario of so many European slaves being sent to live among rural Berber popluations is a hard sell. Records show most of the slaves went to the major urban centers.

"The historian Robert C. Davis has estimated that between 1530 and 1780 1-1.25 million Europeans were captured and enslaved in North Africa, principally in Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli, with further captives in Istanbul and Salé." Ekin, Des (2006). The Stolen Village - Baltimore and the Barbary Pirates. OBrien.


How is it these recessive White traits have survived for so long if the majority of Berbers were Blacks??



The French put an end to much of the White slavery when they conquered the Maghreb in 1830!

---

Sorry but the term white is used only for Tuareg and related Fulani peoples in Africa. That is why Leo Africanus and others use it for the Sanhaja and Yantararas Tuareg.

THe term for your people was "red" in Africa as well as Arabia.

Funny you should post the picture of the Swedish Kabyle girl wearing the dress similar to modern Gereeks and people of the Balkans.

Vandals became quite numerous in North AFrica and Turks also settled in the same region that is why many of the Kabyle women look like Albanians, Swedes, and Central East Asians.

You said and I said, "Reportedly 80,000 strong, many settled in among the Kabyle after their little empire was crushed. Thats a documented fact."

Try telling Lyin_ss that. IT IS MY EXACT POINT> LET VANDALS BE VANDALS AND BERBERS BE BERBERS!

The Berbers of Kabylia included two still black groups known as the Kitama and Sanhaja.
They had nothing to do with Germanic people who have also influenced North Africa.

The below are all inhabitants of Kabylia. One of these folks is a lot like the others one of these folks ....well you answer.

Like I've said before Berber kabyles were not Vandals and Romans in Kabyles



Kabyle


Kabyle


Kabyle


Kabyle


Keep trying to tell me these people came from the same Africans.

keep trying to tell me that the colonialists did not speak of two separate peoples in the kabyles. One were dark and near black in color and one the less populous - according to them were not.

Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
AFricans and Europeans are two different people your Lyin_ess

---

Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:
you can not deny that Germanic tribes like the Vandals settled in North Africa. Reportedly 80,000 strong, many settled in among the Kabyle after their little empire was crushed. Thats a documented fact. And you can not say that Kabyles are not Berbers jsut becuase they have Vandal ancestry. That would be ridiculous since the intermixture with Vandals would have occured about 1500 years ago! Besides many other Berber tribes have similar traits.

---

Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:
[qb]
"The Tunisian traveler Ibn Battuta specified a boundary of the Black lands when he wrote "We then arrived at the town of Iwalatan... Iwalatan is the northernmost province of the Blacks."7 Iwalatan, presently Walata/Oualata near the southeast corner of Mauritania, sits near the southern limit of the Sahara desert. The lands north of that, which make up the main bulk of Berber territory, were not counted by Ibn Battuta as among the black lands.

In the course of his travels, he observed a notably pale Berber tribe which he described as follows:

"At length we arrived among the Bardama. They are a Berber tribe.[...] The Bardama women are the most perfect in beauty, most remarkable in their appearance, of the purest white in their complexion and very fat."8

The writer al-'Umari counted even the southernmost Berber tribes as white:

"In the north of the country of Mali, there are Berber tribes who are white and are under [the Sultan of Mali's] dominion .... They are: the Yatansir, the Shagharasan, the Maddusa and the Lamtuna."9

Also the Greeks refered to some Libyan and Tunisian Berbers as "Leuco-Ethiopians"


I should mention as well that there is a historical tradition among muslims that Tariq the Berber general who led the Moors into Spain was from a familiy of fair haired Berbers.

This is from an Islamic site.

"Through Taariq Ibn Ziyaad, a Muslim state was established in Andalusia, known nowadays as Spain and Portugal. This state lasted for eight centuries. This great hero was not originally an Arab, rather he was one of the Berbers who lived in Morocco. Many of these Berbers embraced Islam, including `Abdullaah, the grandfather of Taariq.`Abdullaah is the first Arab Muslim name in his family but the rest of his grandfathers were Berbers who were distinctly tall and blond."
http://www.islamweb.net/kidsen/Kids%20Corner%201,2/subjects/tarekibnzeyad1.html

But even you if you doubt that Europeans crossed over from Iberia during the LGM. Or that a Back migration of Near Easterners entered North Africa from the East evern earlier, you can not deny that Germanic tribes like the Vandals settled in North Africa. Reportedly 80,000 strong, many settled in among the Kabyle after their little empire was crushed. Thats a documented fact. And you can not say that Kabyles are not Berbers jsut becuase they have Vandal ancestry. That would be ridiculous since the intermixture with Vandals would have occured about 1500 years ago! Besides many other Berber tribes have similar traits.

The alternate scenario of so many European slaves being sent to live among rural Berber popluations is a hard sell. Records show most of the slaves went to the major urban centers.

"The historian Robert C. Davis has estimated that between 1530 and 1780 1-1.25 million Europeans were captured and enslaved in North Africa, principally in Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli, with further captives in Istanbul and Salé." Ekin, Des (2006). The Stolen Village - Baltimore and the Barbary Pirates. OBrien.


How is it these recessive White traits have survived for so long if the majority of Berbers were Blacks??



The French put an end to much of the White slavery when they conquered the Maghreb in 1830!

And what did you say. The Egyptian depictions of Libyans are Fulanis????

---

I have posted many pictures of the Auelamidden Tuareg and Yantaras Tuareg. Beautiful dark brown people even today.

They were also the Bardoa or Bardama of Western Maghreb and of Libya.

As I have started many times on this forum the term "white" or "abyad" was commonly used in Arabic for brown beautiful complexioned people NOT EUROPEAN- looking people who were called "red or "Ahmar" in color.



"white" Lamtuna or Auelimmidden and Yantaras Tuareg occupy Niger

Lol! - i am with the early Libyan anthropologists who considered the white Ethiopians Africans who painted themselves white.



Jebel Nafusa Berber woman

Tariq bin Ziyaad was a Nafzawa Berber like this woman. If he was blond that would be surprising since Zenata were dark brown (Tuareg - Iforas and near black (Zuwagha, Jarawa) and not TALL BLONDS like the Slavic slaves of the Arabs.

Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Speaking of Mummies here is some Lybian Mummies Mathilda wont host..






The mummy Nesikhonsu A is a supreme example of 21st Dynasty (c. 1070-945 B.C.) embalming. Her body was molded to retain a lifelike form, stones were inlaid under her eyelids, and flowers were wrapped around her toes. Like most ancient Egyptians, this wife of a pharaoh died young. But her body was prepared for a glorious afterlife.

Nesitanebetashrua A -21st dynasty queen



of Course Uan...





Djedptahiuankh also dates to the 21st Dynasty. His body cavity was packed with lichen, his mouth filled with sawdust, and sculpted stone eyes were inserted under his half-closed lids.

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^^^ dana whose side are you on?

Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Speaking of Mummies here is some Lybian Mummies Mathilda wont host..






The mummy Nesikhonsu A is a supreme example of 21st Dynasty (c. 1070-945 B.C.) embalming. Her body was molded to retain a lifelike form, stones were inlaid under her eyelids, and flowers were wrapped around her toes. Like most ancient Egyptians, this wife of a pharaoh died young. But her body was prepared for a glorious afterlife.

Nesitanebetashrua A -21st dynasty queen








Djedptahiuankh also dates to the 21st Dynasty. His body cavity was packed with lichen, his mouth filled with sawdust, and sculpted stone eyes were inserted under his half-closed lids.

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^^^ dana whose side are you on?

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Lol! Not the Roman one and Vandal or Turkish descended one.


Berber (non-vandal non-Greek-Roman, non-Turkish descended) woman of Kabylia



Fulani


Bilen cushitic woman

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posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:


Algeria: A Country Study, which reads: “The Berbers are a composite people, presenting a broad range of physical types and the bond among various Berber groups is almost entirely a linguistic one."

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Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by melchior7:
Sorry but the term white is used only for Tuareg and related Fulani peoples in Africa. That is why Leo Africanus and others use it for the Sanhaja and Yantararas Tuareg.

THe term for your people was "red" in Africa as well as Arabia.

Funny you should post the picture of the Swedish Kabyle girl wearing the dress similar to modern Gereeks and people of the Balkans.

Vandals became quite numerous in North AFrica and Turks also settled in the same region that is why many of the Kabyle women look like Albanians, Swedes, and Central East Asians.

You said and I said, "Reportedly 80,000 strong, many settled in among the Kabyle after their little empire was crushed. Thats a documented fact."

Try telling Lyin_ss that. IT IS MY EXACT POINT> LET VANDALS BE VANDALS AND BERBERS BE BERBERS!

The Berbers of Kabylia included two still black groups known as the Kitama and Sanhaja.
They had nothing to do with Germanic people who have also influenced North Africa.

The below are all inhabitants of Kabylia. One of these folks is a lot like the others one of these folks ....well you answer.

Like I've said before Berber kabyles were not Vandals and Romans in Kabyles


Keep trying to tell me these people came from the same Africans.

keep trying to tell me that the colonialists did not speak of two separate peoples in the kabyles. One were dark and near black in color and one the less populous - according to them were not.

The Tuareg and Fulanis are not WHite. Ibn Battuta refered to himself as "white" man and cleary his use of the term clearly shows that he percived a psiological difference along racial lines. Observe.


"Travellers in this region needed neither money nor food for their trip. Instead, they carried slabs of salt, glass trinkets [beads] and perfumery, which they traded for their needs. The local blacks had millet porridge, chicken, milk, rice, flour and fonio to trade. Battuta warned that the rice was bad for white men, and wrote that the fonio was better.

Ten days from Walata, they reached the village of Zaghari, where black merchants called Wanjarata lived. There was also a community of white Muslim Kharrijite followers of the Ibadi called the Saghanagbu. Zaghari was tributary to Malli."

He finds the difference significant enough that he doesn't think they should eat the same foods.

And how did the Blonde Berber girl manage to preserve such European features down to this day, as if she has no Black admixture??

Face it the Vandals and others were asorbed by Berbers long ago, and today that is part of WHO THEY ARE.

And one thing that is hardly ever mentioned is aside from the European slaves brought by the Barbary pirates, there was also many Black slave brought from the Southern Sahara. And this is where I believe is the origin of the Black Kabyles. Also these postcards prbably date no earlier than the 1880's. White slavery ended generations before that. So then I ask you what happend to all of these Black Kabyles?? Why don't we see them today.

---

The Tuareg Yantasir and Lamtuna and other Tuareg tribes are called "white" by the Arabic writers MELCHIOR - you just posted it just like I posted it many times before.

I am sorry you didn't know the Aulamidden Tuareg and the Lamtuna are the Tuareg i.e. Sanhaja Berber peoples, and remnants of the Numidians if we are to believe Leo Africanus, who also calls them (the TUAREG)white.

Similarly, the Abyssinians and Somali are called "white" in Arab sources.

Just as I walked into an Ivory Coast African party in Harlem one day and someone started whispering what is that white girl doing here. I am sorry to bust your bubble, but that is what "white" meant to Africans and Arabs (another people who once looked like Africans).

BTW the European looking probably Germanic or Greek descended girl you posted probably doesn't have any ancient African blood whatsoever. lol! You are exactly right!

BTW - I never said the Berbers didn't absorb Vandal people just as I would never say the Vandals in Africa haven't absorbed the Berber people.

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posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] @ Mel7
Your Sources and argument does not change thr Truth, hell if anything it proves our point, that the Vandals, Romans, and Byzantines had an impact on the African Berbers who were called Black Mauros by the Romans and Greeks.

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Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
[QB] @ Mel7
Your Sources and argument does not change thr Truth, hell if anything it proves our point, that the Vandals, Romans, and Byzantines had an impact on the African Berbers who were called Black Mauros by the Romans and Greeks.

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Berbers are a combination of
Vandals, Romans, Byzantines and Africans. That's who they are

Berbers by definition are a composite people defined by human settlement and the Berber language.

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Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
@ Mel7
Your Sources and argument does not change thr Truth, hell if anything it proves our point, that the Vandals, Romans, and Byzantines had an impact on the African Berbers who were called Black Mauros by the Romans and Greeks.

Your quotation of a 17th Century manuscript wont change the facts. From Egypt to the Sahel the Berbers were a Dark Skinned race of people.



South Tunisian HLA gene profile has studied for the first time. HLA-A, -B, -DRB1 and -DQB1 allele frequencies of Ghannouch have been compared with those of neighboring populations, other Mediterraneans and Sub-Saharans. Their relatedness has been tested by genetic distances, Neighbor-Joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. Our HLA data show that both southern from Ghannouch and northern Tunisians are of a Berber substratum in spite of the successive incursions (particularly, the 7th–8th century A.D. Arab invasion) occurred in Tunisia. It is also the case of other North Africans and Iberians. This present study confirms the relatedness of Greeks to Sub-Saharan populations. This suggests that there was an admixture between the Greeks and Sub-Saharans probably during Pharaonic period or after natural catastrophes (dryness) occurred in Sahara.

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Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
@ Mel7
Your Sources and argument does not change thr Truth, hell if anything it proves our point, that the Vandals, Romans, and Byzantines had an impact on the African Berbers who were called Black Mauros by the Romans and Greeks.

Your quotation of a 17th Century manuscript wont change the facts. From Egypt to the Sahel the Berbers were a Dark Skinned race of people.



South Tunisian HLA gene profile has studied for the first time. HLA-A, -B, -DRB1 and -DQB1 allele frequencies of Ghannouch have been compared with those of neighboring populations, other Mediterraneans and Sub-Saharans. Their relatedness has been tested by genetic distances, Neighbor-Joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. Our HLA data show that both southern from Ghannouch and northern Tunisians are of a Berber substratum in spite of the successive incursions (particularly, the 7th–8th century A.D. Arab invasion) occurred in Tunisia. It is also the case of other North Africans and Iberians. This present study confirms the relatedness of Greeks to Sub-Saharan populations. This suggests that there was an admixture between the Greeks and Sub-Saharans probably during Pharaonic period or after natural catastrophes (dryness) occurred in Sahara.

---

Ibn Battuta wrote in 1330. Is that the 17th century?? Of course the Vandals and others had some impact on the Berbers. But think for a minute, could they possibly have caused such a drastic change in the Berber phenotype?? Do you think that the Vandals and others ever outnumbered your Berber Blacks?? Doubtful. Most of these Byzantines etc likely remained in the urban areas where they were converted and Arabized. Many Berbers have remained in the country and thus have been able to preserve some of their language and culture.

Do you really think people couldn't make it across the straits of Gilbratar before historic times. Important question.

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Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:
Jari,

The Ironic part is that despite the Eurocentics attempts to Equate the Berbers with Blond Fair Europeans, it was Europeans(Greeks and Romans) who equated the Berbers with the African/Dark Skinned race by calling the Moors I.E Blacks. Why would White people call other White people(Who are supposed to more fair in skin and hair than themselves)

No I don't think many equate the Berbers with fair haired Europeans. We know that the blond types are a minority. The majority are swarthy Middle Eastern looking types. It's just that there is such a fascination with the fairer types and people love to fuss about their true origins.

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
@ Mel7
Your Sources and argument does not change thr Truth, hell if anything it proves our point, that the Vandals, Romans, and Byzantines had an impact on the African Berbers who were called Black Mauros by the Romans and Greeks.

Your quotation of a 17th Century manuscript wont change the facts. From Egypt to the Sahel the Berbers were a Dark Skinned race of people.



South Tunisian HLA gene profile has studied for the first time. HLA-A, -B, -DRB1 and -DQB1 allele frequencies of Ghannouch have been compared with those of neighboring populations, other Mediterraneans and Sub-Saharans. Their relatedness has been tested by genetic distances, Neighbor-Joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. Our HLA data show that both southern from Ghannouch and northern Tunisians are of a Berber substratum in spite of the successive incursions (particularly, the 7th–8th century A.D. Arab invasion) occurred in Tunisia. It is also the case of other North Africans and Iberians. This present study confirms the relatedness of Greeks to Sub-Saharan populations. This suggests that there was an admixture between the Greeks and Sub-Saharans probably during Pharaonic period or after natural catastrophes (dryness) occurred in Sahara.

---

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Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:
Dana Marniche

The Tuareg Yantasir and Lamtuna and other Tuareg tribes are called "white" by the Arabic writers MELCHIOR - you just posted it just like I posted it many times before.

I am sorry you didn't know the Aulamidden Tuareg and the Lamtuna are the Tuareg i.e. Sanhaja Berber peoples, and remnants of the Numidians if we are to believe Leo Africanus, who also calls them (the TUAREG)white.

Similarly, the Abyssinians and Somali are called "white" in Arab sources.

Just as I walked into an Ivory Coast African party in Harlem one day and someone started whispering what is that white girl doing here. I am sorry to bust your bubble, but that is what "white" meant to Africans and Arabs (another people who once looked like Africans).

BTW the European looking probably Germanic or Greek descended girl you posted probably doesn't have any ancient African blood whatsoever. lol! You are exactly right!

BTW - I never said the Berbers didn't absorb Vandal people just as I would never say the Vandals in Africa haven't absorbed the Berber people.

I do know that Tuaregs initailly lived further north and that there current phenotype is believed to be due to recent admixture with Sub Saharan peoples. So maybe during the time of Africanus the ones he say were light skinned. reagrdless I'm not buying your attempt to tweak the meaning of the word White. Perhaps it minght be usueful to know what the Moor africanus looked like himself.




Certianly with regard to his own light coloration,if indeed the picture is authentic it would be asurd for him to call someone darker than himself, WHITE. If you akcnowledge that they were light skiined descentdants of Vandals or Byzantines roaming around, which apparently you do, then Leo Africanus had a pretty good point of reference on which to base his phenotypical descriptions.

So if the blond berber girl doesn't have any African mixture then this implies some kind of Aparthied among berbers down through the centuries? Is this what your implying. Yet their DNA clearly shows mixture. Hmmmmm.

"BTW - I never said the Berbers didn't absorb Vandal people just as I would never say the Vandals in Africa haven't absorbed the Berber people"

They either did or didn't. In fact Eurasian mtDNA is so prevalent among Berbers it's oneone of their defining triats. To screen out Berbers with Eurasian admixture would leave you with hardly anybody.

As we say on Topix, watchu gonna do??

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Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:
Do you think that the Vandals and others ever outnumbered your Berber Blacks??

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Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:
Dana Marniche

The Tuareg Yantasir and Lamtuna and other Tuareg tribes are called "white" by the Arabic writers MELCHIOR - you just posted it just like I posted it many times before.

I am sorry you didn't know the Aulamidden Tuareg and the Lamtuna are the Tuareg i.e. Sanhaja Berber peoples, and remnants of the Numidians if we are to believe Leo Africanus, who also calls them (the TUAREG)white.

Similarly, the Abyssinians and Somali are called "white" in Arab sources.

Just as I walked into an Ivory Coast African party in Harlem one day and someone started whispering what is that white girl doing here. I am sorry to bust your bubble, but that is what "white" meant to Africans and Arabs (another people who once looked like Africans).

BTW the European looking probably Germanic or Greek descended girl you posted probably doesn't have any ancient African blood whatsoever. lol! You are exactly right!

BTW - I never said the Berbers didn't absorb Vandal people just as I would never say the Vandals in Africa haven't absorbed the Berber people.

I do know that Tuaregs initailly lived further north and that there current phenotype is believed to be due to recent admixture with Sub Saharan peoples. So maybe during the time of Africanus the ones he say were light skinned. reagrdless I'm not buying your attempt to tweak the meaning of the word White. Perhaps it minght be usueful to know what the Moor africanus looked like himself.




Certianly with regard to his own light coloration,if indeed the picture is authentic it would be asurd for him to call someone darker than himself, WHITE. If you akcnowledge that they were light skiined descentdants of Vandals or Byzantines roaming around, which apparently you do, then Leo Africanus had a pretty good point of reference on which to base his phenotypical descriptions.

So if the blond berber girl doesn't have any African mixture then this implies some kind of Aparthied among berbers down through the centuries? Is this what your implying. Yet their DNA clearly shows mixture. Hmmmmm.

"BTW - I never said the Berbers didn't absorb Vandal people just as I would never say the Vandals in Africa haven't absorbed the Berber people"

They either did or didn't. In fact Eurasian mtDNA is so prevalent among Berbers it's oneone of their defining triats. To screen out Berbers with Eurasian admixture would leave you with hardly anybody.

As we say on Topix, watchu gonna do??

---

I'm not tweaking anything Melchior i repeated what you said about the Tuareg people who are still called whites in parts of Africa just like the Fulani are called whites.

Don't put that on me.

BTW - nobody attributes the dark -skin of the Sanhaja or Tuareg to their coming south but white people like you who want to put themselves in their place.

Tuareg are an Afro-Asiatic people from East Africa who like AFro-Americans have absorbed some whites during their long stay along the coasts and inland regions of North Africa and nothing you EURONUTS write is going to change that. '


That's why these descendants of the Lam and Lamtuna or Sanhaja, Kutama, Luwata were called black for centuries by you came along.

"The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then ..." 11th century A>D> Byzantine Arab Ibn Butlan of Iraq

---

That is you who is calling Germanic-looking people in Africa Berbers and colonial Europeans not me. I actually call European descendants in Africa Berber speakers.

As shown by history, - the Arabs called Berbers blacks.

The Berber or Amazigh nationality has been adopted only recently by such people as look European in the past century and a half.

It was previously the name for the Tuareg and Masmuda or Shluh of the Upper Atlas.

Can't win can you.lol!

BTW - Moor did not mean any Muslim from Spain or North Africa. That is European colonial rhetoric, and your wishful thinking.

Why do you think "moro" the synonym for Negro among the Christian Spaniards? Why do you think Europeans invented the term tannimoor and white Moor. If Moor meant Muslim

Leo Africanus had nothing to do with the Moors of ancient North Africa, although he does look like he could have had some African blood.

Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

Bhutta was Arabized . You do realize the Elite inhabitants of Walata(Whom are supposed to be the Northern Most "Blacks) also described themselves as Bidan or white. Im not an Arab but accrding to Dana and Alwaad being white had nothing to do with being white in the modern Western sense in Arabic times.

I would love to get an original translation to see what word he used for Blacks. Blacks aka Bilad es Sudan did not describe all the blacks on planet Earth.

Isolated Berber Village of Tamegroute..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G13ginEFMvc

http://www.5min.com/Video/Visit-the-Pottery-Factory-in-Tamegroute-Morocco-516957189

As you can see Tamegroute(Morocco) is much further North than Oulata(Mauritania)



But Im sure you will make a Case for Slavery for these Berbers..

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:

---

Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:
Jari,

The Ironic part is that despite the Eurocentics attempts to Equate the Berbers with Blond Fair Europeans, it was Europeans(Greeks and Romans) who equated the Berbers with the African/Dark Skinned race by calling the Moors I.E Blacks. Why would White people call other White people(Who are supposed to more fair in skin and hair than themselves)

No I don't think many equate the Berbers with fair haired Europeans. We know that the blond types are a minority. The majority are swarthy Middle Eastern looking types. It's just that there is such a fascination with the fairer types and people love to fuss about their true origins.

---

Can you summaries the Hg-autosomals, found within Berbers of North Africa? Maternal and paternal?


Frigi et al.

Human Biology

August 2010 (82:4)

Discussion

In this study we attempted to better elucidate the ancient African genetic background in the northwest African area, particularly in Tunisia. To this aim, we focused our study on Berber populations that are considered representative of the ancient North African populations that probably derived from Neolithic Capsians.

"During historic times, Berbers experienced a long and complicated history with many invasions, conquests, and migrations by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, Arabs, Bedouins, Spanish, Turks, Andalusians, sub-Saharans (communities settled in Jerba and Gabes in the 16th–19th centuries), and French (Brett and Fentress 1996). During these invasions, Berbers were forced back to the mountains and to certain villages in southern Tunisia (Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004)."

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Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:

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Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:
Do you think that the Vandals and others ever outnumbered your Berber Blacks??

---

Of course they did. Many of these areas had little to no human settlement in most of these regions until people came in from out of Africa. The is no historical record showing otherwise

Indigenous nomadic Africans who passed through these areas should not be identified as Berbers because Berber is defined by language and the Berber language comes later. They became Berber later

Once the permanent human settlements were established out of this the Berber language. Then anybody who was part of this Berber culrure and spoke the Berber language is Berber, a composite people.

---

Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:
Dana Marniche

There has been no change in phenotype Melchior most Berbers are still dark brown and near black in color which is how they are described before the 16th century while the descendants of Greeks and Vandals still look like what they look like - "not black like the Mauri" (per Procopius de Bello Vandalico. )

Really?? I hope you know that the majority of Berbers live in the Northern most parts of North Africa.



The majority are Eurasian looking. And I can post countless pictures which demonstrate this.


On the other hand most of the pictures of dark skined Berbers are usually of folks who live deep in the Sahra like Tuareg, Siwa Berbers or Fulani etc.


If you don't mind I would ask you to take a look at this thread from Topix where debated this matter to infinity, and weigh in if you care to. I hate to have to keep bringing up the same material over and over again.
http://www.topix.com/forum/afam/TVT37FQA3VMA9AMGP/p676#lastPost

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YES - REALLY - MELCHIOR. Most Berber tribes including the descendants of the Masmuda, Zanata, Kitama, Sanhaja are still dark brown and near black in color. I am not including people who speak Berber and yet have know tribal affiliation such as many of the EURASIANS of North AFRICA!

There is no Berber tribe named Kabyle in ancient records now is there. Unless of course we want to consider them the Greek Cabali meantioned by Herodotus.

one of teh reasons we know that a lot of the Berbers did mix with Europeans recently is because of rather large fair skinned tribes like the Ghomara of the northern Atlas who claim descent from a southern Atlas dark brown Masmuda invasion.

CAn't win, can you.


Masmuda or Shluh Berber

Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:
Do you think that the Vandals and others ever outnumbered your Berber Blacks??

---

Of course they did. Many of these areas had little to no human settlement in most of these regions until people came in from out of Africa. The is no historical record showing otherwise

Indigenous nomadic Africans who passed through these areas should not be identified as Berbers because Berber is defined by language and the Berber language comes later. They became Berber later

Once the permanent human stettlements were established out of this the Berber language. Then anybody who was part of this Berber culrure and spoke the Berber language is Berber, a composite people.

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Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

You are such a sneaky Liar. If a Berber is Darker he is admixed with Blacks, but the Lighter Berbers are pure and isolated. The Berbers of the South cant be Isolated, they must surly be mixed with Negros, but the Norther Berbers are Isolated and unmixed.

Slavery only affects Dark North Africans, the Millions of White Slaves had no impact on North Africa,..


I already debunked your claims by showcasing the Berbers of Tamegroute who are majority blacks.

quote:

---

Originally posted by melchior7:
Dana Marniche

There has been no change in phenotype Melchior most Berbers are still dark brown and near black in color which is how they are described before the 16th century while the descendants of Greeks and Vandals still look like what they look like - "not black like the Mauri" (per Procopius de Bello Vandalico. )

Really?? I hope you know that the majority of Berbers live in the Northern most parts of North Africa.



The majority are Eurasian looking. And I can post countless pictures which demonstrate this.


On the other hand most of the pictures of dark skined Berbers are usually of folks who live deep in the Sahra like Tuareg, Siwa Berbers or Fulani etc.


If you don't mind I would ask you to take a look at this thread from Topix where debated this matter to infinity, and weigh in if you care to. I hate to have to keep bringing up the same material over and over again.
http://www.topix.com/forum/afam/TVT37FQA3VMA9AMGP/p676#lastPost

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Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged |