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» EgyptSearch Forums » Deshret » Caucasian Berber tribes? Still waiting for any one before the 16th century (Page 5)

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Author Topic: Caucasian Berber tribes? Still waiting for any one before the 16th century
the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

Everyone knows that the white Berbers, for the most part originate from the coasts. As Ausar says, their first historical appearance is in the New Kingdom.

Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop
African Origins of Civilization

p 215

"Meanwhile, the Libyans in the western part of the Delta, were organizing
still another coalition, the fifth directed against the Black Egyptian nation
by the Indo-Europeans. Ramses III defeated them at Memphis in 1188 B.C.
After that date the White Libyans never again revolted against Egypt, but
they tried by every possible means to infiltrate peacefully and to settle
there as serfs or semi-serfs, working at various kinds of manual labor, as
farmers or artisans, especially in the Delta. They were also employed in
the army as an auxiliary foreign corps called Kehek.

The situation was identical in the Nubian Sudan where Libyans were
also used as semi-serfs in the army. But the Libyans settled in the Delta,
because of its proximity. These people, whose alien slave origin was
obvious, would gradually be freed by Egyptian law. Later, some would
become notables as a reward for "loyal" services to the Egyptian ruler.
Yet, their slave origin would never be forgotten by the true Egyptian
national, even when they took advantage of troubled periods to exercise
control of a given district in the Delta where military command had been
entrusted to them by the Pharaoh. We shall see how these foreign elements,
who felt no real sentimental attachment to Egyptian soil, were to undermine
political mores beginning with Psammetichus.

To protect the country against invasion, Ramses III had to resort to
conscription, drafting one Egyptian national out of ten (cf. Pirenne, II, 476).
Because of their immunity, we do not know whether this measure was
applicable to the temple properties. Since Ramses II, Libyans and other
White foreigners who were recruited into the auxiliary armed services had
farmed land belonging to the royal domain, of which the well-informed
Egyptian administration kept a strict accounting. To prevent their flight in
troubled periods, Ramses III had them all branded with the seal of the
local administration. This old Egyptian practice leaves no doubt about
their slave status, whether they were farmers in peacetime or enrolled in
the auxiliary forces in time of war. Authors often misuse the term "mercenaries"
to designate those who were, in fact, slaves bearing the indelible mark of their royal master

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

Everyone knows that the white Berbers, for the most part originate from the coasts. As Ausar says, their first historical appearance is in the New Kingdom.

Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop
African Origins of Civilization

p

in fact there is no reason to think these fair skinned mulatto Libyans who were obviously a mixture of Fulani and European in origin were ancestral to any modern day people.s They were likely absorbed into ancient libyan populations like the Tuareg and Romans and Scythians.

There is no reference to fair-skinned Berber tribe in the history books unless we want to consider the Tuareg fair in color.

We can not just assume because somebody lived in North Africa they were part of the people called Berber.

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Well even more than that you have to understand what racism is. It isn't concerned about facts it only cares about its ability to push its own agenda.

I mean why on earth do we need to resurrect no less than 3 old threads and create new ones to restate the same things that have been stated so many times here before. These people haven't challenged those facts. They simply ignore it because that is their agenda.

And just to be clear, it isn't that anyone here claims that were never any whites in North Africa through history. No, the opposite is true, they claim that there were never any blacks native to north Africa and therefore present throughout history which is a totally demonstrable and provable lie.

dana started this, she is trying to say that non Africans who settled into North Africa prior to the 16th century are not real Berbers, they are fake Berbers. Naturally people react. Even Dr. Clyde Winters has a different view on this.
She is the one trying to racilize Berbers saying they are 100% African only and that they are basically Fulani and Tuareg.
So don't come in here like she didn't start with an agenda.
The thread title uses the term "Caucasian" as if it is valid, like wise "Negroid" would also be valid in her premise and her premise is an either/or proposition, a one or the other set up.
Berber is a language and culture she wants to make it into race and try to justify it because some fools on the opposite extreme, doing the exact same exclusivisizing, would not include Tuareg.
It's an excuse to be reverse racist. The people are who they say they are, who speak the language and maintained the traditions.

I am actually being very objective. Did I ever say anything about fake. Am I a fact AngloAmerican because I live in the U.S. I speak the English because i live in America and some of my ancestors spoke it. But most English didn't look like me now did they!

If I were racisti.e. nationalist I would be saying that the original Englishman of the King James era looked like me or Obama. [Roll Eyes]

People should celebrate their heritage and not ignore history. Modern Berber-SPEAKERS descend from many different groups, and the original ones were NEAR BLACK IN COLOR.


AS WERE THE MESOLITHIC/NEOLITHIC SPANIARDS AND MOST SOUTHERN MEDITERRANEANS!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Big Grin]

 -
Eastern Spain

FACE FACTS!

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

Everyone knows that the white Berbers, for the most part originate from the coasts. As Ausar says, their first historical appearance is in the New Kingdom.

Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop
African Origins of Civilization

p

in fact there is no reason to think these fair skinned mulatto Libyans who were obviously Fulani and European in origin were ancestral to any modern day people.s They were likely absorbed into ancient libyan populations like the Tuareg and Romans and Scythians.

There is no reference to fair-skinned Berber tribe in the history books unless we want to consider the Tuareg fair in color.

.

Above the remarks are referring to the New Kingdom period, 1550–1070 B.C.

You say that these fair skinned mulatto Libyans were Fulani and European in origin.

The you say that they were likely absorbed into ancient libyan populations like the Tuareg and Romans and Scythians.

Who is this large mysterious Libyan population who everybody gets "absorbed" into?
Where is there archeological evidence of large premanent settlements in coastal North Africa prior to the Cartheginians?

You have referred to Libyans having a European component since
at least the New Kingdom period. Why do you assume everybody always mixed with other ethnicities across the board, every single group of Europeans of the period "absorbed" ?
Some populations remain in isolated areas, especially these rocky mounatinous regions such as the Atlas.
You're doing a lot of speculation.
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
We can not just assume because somebody lived in North Africa they were part of the people called Berber

"Berber" is not a term people of the region called themselves. Berber is a variation of the Latin original word Barbarian, earlier in history applied by Romans specifically to their northern hostile neighbors from Germania (modern Germany) and to the hostile Berbers of North Africa.The origins of both the names Berber and Amazigh is ambiguous. The oldest cited reference to "Amazigh" goes back to the neighboring ancient Egyptians when they mentioned an ancient Libyan tribe called Meshwesh. Those Meshwesh are supposed by some scholars to be the same ancient Libyan tribe that was mentioned as Maxyans by the Greek historian Herodotus.

Look at all the coins of the Numidian kings. I'm only showing a few of them below. The people don't look African.
Why is this? Were the people that made the coins incapable of depicting an African? Was it a conspiracy to make them look European?

Why do most coins depicting Numidan kings look like this:
 -
 -
 -




 -

Many, these Numidian kings do not look like this:

why?
 -

may or may not be Hannibal. But these various coins show they had representations of different phenotypes

yes the Tuaregs are also Berber, I give them their props. Like you quoted earlier, Berbers are a "composite people".
Is every branch intermarried ("absorbed") with every other branch? Some are some aren't.

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the Iioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
If Kabyles male DNA is mostly African and mtDNA is mostly Eurasian, then won't you admit that this was a result of Black African men and their mulatto offsprings taking white Eurasian women no?

Why do you automatically assume that the E carriers were Black? At some point I'm sure they were, coming from East Africa. But you had back migrations into North Africa coming out of the Middle East, bringing U6 at least 20,000 years ago. Just look at the depiction of Lower Egypt how many of the inhabitants were lighter than sub Saharan Africans due to mixture I'm sure.

 -


North Africa has always been a sort of crossroads, merging into the Middle East and coming within 9 miles of Europe, across from Gibraltar.

We also have reason to believe that Europeans crossed over into Europe during the Ice Age.

"The sequencing of entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroup U reveals that this clade arose shortly after the out of Africa exit and rapidly radiated into numerous regionally distinct subclades. Intriguingly, the Saami of Scandinavia and the Berbers of North Africa were found to share an extremely young branch, aged merely 9,000 years. This unexpected finding not only confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum but also reveals a direct maternal link between those European hunter-gatherer populations and the Berbers."
http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-929760734-4

So now, Hg U* came from the Saami, Northern Europe?


Problematic is, how did these females end up in North Africa, shortly after the ice age? If they came from Finland. A place historically known for hunter gathering. U6 is not overall, and only makes up 9%, except for some places in North Africa where it reaches higher amounts.


The genetics of the Saami people and their language

(Paper read by Carl O. Nordling on the 9th International Finno-Ugrian Congress, Tartu 2000.)


http://www.carlonordling.se/Saami.html


Interesting to look at too is Saami historic relation as enslaved people by the Vikings.


I have not read this book for myself, yet. I just found out about it.


The Scandinavians from the Vendel period to the tenth century


And enslaved North Africans taken to Northern Europe.

http://www.thebookbag.co.uk/reviews/index.php?title=Wolf_Cry_by_Julia_Golding

i already explained that U6 is one of the oldest genetic marker of the berbers and only common to North Africans [berbers]
U6 is a 30,0000 years old mutation of U which is believed to have entered North Africa via the Middle East thanks to the expansion of the Cro-Magnon.
Thus, Eurasian looking people have been living in North Africa since more than 30,000 years old

 -

1). You did not explain anything, you inserted. I asked you to show me archeological peer reviewed evidence. You did not.

2). I am not the one who posted about the Saami, it was your friend AKA alter-ego.

However, its interesting that North Africans have been taken to Northern Europe and that Vikings enslaved Saami's.

Vikings had their share in North Africa for a while, did you know that?

30.000 years ago North Africa was an extreme cold area.

Another thing I asked you was, did no one else lived in North Africa before?

Thanks in advance.

1)LULZ. I posted facts. No explanations needed.

2) Saamis do NOT have mtDNA U6 but U5. Vikings were probably of Y-DNA I and R. Majority of modern berbers are of E type. FAIL.

North Africa was not extremely cold.....Eh FAIL

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

Everyone knows that the white Berbers, for the most part originate from the coasts. As Ausar says, their first historical appearance is in the New Kingdom.

Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop
African Origins of Civilization

p

in fact there is no reason to think these fair skinned mulatto Libyans who were obviously Fulani and European in origin were ancestral to any modern day people.s They were likely absorbed into ancient libyan populations like the Tuareg and Romans and Scythians.

There is no reference to fair-skinned Berber tribe in the history books unless we want to consider the Tuareg fair in color.

.

Above the remarks are referring to the New Kingdom period, 1550–1070 B.C.

You say that these fair skinned mulatto Libyans were Fulani and European in origin.

The you say that they were likely absorbed into ancient libyan populations like the Tuareg and Romans and Scythians.

Who is this large mysterious Libyan population who everybody gets "absorbed" into?
Where is there archeological evidence of large premanent settlements in coastal North Africa prior to the Cartheginians?

You have referred to Libyans having a European component since
at least the New Kingdom period. Why do you assume everybody always mixed with other ethnicities across the board, every single group of Europeans of the period "absorbed" ?
Some populations remain in isolated areas, especially these rocky mounatinous regions such as the Atlas.
You're doing a lot of speculation.
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
We can not just assume because somebody lived in North Africa they were part of the people called Berber

"Berber" is not a term people of the region called themselves. Berber is a variation of the Latin original word Barbarian, earlier in history applied by Romans specifically to their northern hostile neighbors from Germania (modern Germany) and to the hostile Berbers of North Africa.The origins of both the names Berber and Amazigh is ambiguous. The oldest cited reference to "Amazigh" goes back to the neighboring ancient Egyptians when they mentioned an ancient Libyan tribe called Meshwesh. Those Meshwesh are supposed by some scholars to be the same ancient Libyan tribe that was mentioned as Maxyans by the Greek historian Herodotus.

Look at all the coins of the Numidian kings. I'm only showing a few of them below. The people don't look African.
Why is this? Were the people that made the coins incapable of depicting an African? Was it a conspiracy to make them look European?

Why do most coins depicting Numidan kings look like this:
 -
 -
 -




 -

Many, these Numidian kings do not look like this:

why?
 -

may or may not be Hannibal. But these various coins show they had representations of different phenotypes

yes the Tuaregs are also Berber, I give them their props. Like you quoted earlier, Berbers are a "composite people".
Is every branch intermarried ("absorbed") with every other branch? Some are some aren't.

What time do these coins date?
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
If Kabyles male DNA is mostly African and mtDNA is mostly Eurasian, then won't you admit that this was a result of Black African men and their mulatto offsprings taking white Eurasian women no?

Maybe you can show me the frequency Of this U6 Hg in Berbers, summarized by group? Is shown in my previous post.


Why do you automatically assume that the E carriers were Black? At some point I'm sure they were, coming from East Africa. But you had back migrations into North Africa coming out of the Middle East, bringing U6 at least 20,000 years ago. Just look at the depiction of Lower Egypt how many of the inhabitants were lighter than sub Saharan Africans due to mixture I'm sure.

 -


North Africa has always been a sort of crossroads, merging into the Middle East and coming within 9 miles of Europe, across from Gibraltar.

We also have reason to believe that Europeans crossed over into Europe during the Ice Age.

"The sequencing of entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroup U reveals that this clade arose shortly after the out of Africa exit and rapidly radiated into numerous regionally distinct subclades. Intriguingly, the Saami of Scandinavia and the Berbers of North Africa were found to share an extremely young branch, aged merely 9,000 years. This unexpected finding not only confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum but also reveals a direct maternal link between those European hunter-gatherer populations and the Berbers."
http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-929760734-4

So now, Hg U* came from the Saami, Northern Europe?


Problematic is, how did these females end up in North Africa, shortly after the ice age? If they came from Finland. A place historically known for hunter gathering. U6 is not overall, and only makes up 9%, except for some places in North Africa where it reaches higher amounts.


The genetics of the Saami people and their language

(Paper read by Carl O. Nordling on the 9th International Finno-Ugrian Congress, Tartu 2000.)


http://www.carlonordling.se/Saami.html


Interesting to look at too is Saami historic relation as enslaved people by the Vikings.


I have not read this book for myself, yet. I just found out about it.


The Scandinavians from the Vendel period to the tenth century


And enslaved North Africans taken to Northern Europe.

http://www.thebookbag.co.uk/reviews/index.php?title=Wolf_Cry_by_Julia_Golding

i already explained that U6 is one of the oldest genetic marker of the berbers and only common to North Africans [berbers]
U6 is a 30,0000 years old mutation of U which is believed to have entered North Africa via the Middle East thanks to the expansion of the Cro-Magnon.
Thus, Eurasian looking people have been living in North Africa since more than 30,000 years old

 -

1). You did not explain anything, you inserted. I asked you to show me archeological peer reviewed evidence. You did not.

2). I am not the one who posted about the Saami, it was your friend AKA alter-ego.

However, its interesting that North Africans have been taken to Northern Europe and that Vikings enslaved Saami's.

Vikings had their share in North Africa for a while, did you know that?

30.000 years ago North Africa was an extreme cold area.

Another thing I asked you was, did no one else lived in North Africa before?

Thanks in advance.

1)LULZ. I posted facts. No explanations needed.

2) Saamis do NOT have mtDNA U6 but U5. Vikings were probably of Y-DNA I and R. Majority of modern berbers are of E type. FAIL.

North Africa was not extremely cold.....Eh FAIL

Facts is when one shows peer reviewed evidence.You did not!!!

Tell me how large was the female population and where did they settle? What were the living conditions and survive?


North Africa was cold 30.000 years ago. Fact!


So, this means that the Saami study is incorrect. Right?

Also, I ask, did anyone live in North Africa before 30.000 years?

Yes, the Vikings were probably I* or R*. this can be found in certain Berber populations. Evidence of more admixture in the autosomal.


And last but not least, the E* marker, from where does it stem? What is the basal of the Hg?

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Well even more than that you have to understand what racism is. It isn't concerned about facts it only cares about its ability to push its own agenda.

I mean why on earth do we need to resurrect no less than 3 old threads and create new ones to restate the same things that have been stated so many times here before. These people haven't challenged those facts. They simply ignore it because that is their agenda.

And just to be clear, it isn't that anyone here claims that were never any whites in North Africa through history. No, the opposite is true, they claim that there were never any blacks native to north Africa and therefore present throughout history which is a totally demonstrable and provable lie.

dana started this, she is trying to say that non Africans who settled into North Africa prior to the 16th century are not real Berbers, they are fake Berbers. Naturally people react. Even Dr. Clyde Winters has a different view on this.
She is the one trying to racilize Berbers saying they are 100% African only and that they are basically Fulani and Tuareg.
So don't come in here like she didn't start with an agenda.
The thread title uses the term "Caucasian" as if it is valid, like wise "Negroid" would also be valid in her premise and her premise is an either/or proposition, a one or the other set up.
Berber is a language and culture she wants to make it into race and try to justify it because some fools on the opposite extreme, doing the exact same exclusivisizing, would not include Tuareg.
It's an excuse to be reverse racist. The people are who they say they are, who speak the language and maintained the traditions.

I am actually being very objective. Did I ever say anything about fake. Am I a fact AngloAmerican because I live in the U.S. I speak the English because i live in America and some of my ancestors spoke it. But most English didn't look like me now did they!

If I were racisti.e. nationalist I would be saying that the original Englishman of the King James era looked like me or Obama. [Roll Eyes]

People should celebrate their heritage and not ignore history. Modern Berber-SPEAKERS descend from many different groups, and the original ones were NEAR BLACK IN COLOR.


AS WERE THE MESOLITHIC/NEOLITHIC SPANIARDS AND MOST SOUTHERN MEDITERRANEANS!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Big Grin]

 -
Eastern Spain

FACE FACTS!

Yes, this is evidence.
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Adira and Marra
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[Smile]
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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

Everyone knows that the white Berbers, for the most part originate from the coasts. As Ausar says, their first historical appearance is in the New Kingdom.

Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop
African Origins of Civilization

p

in fact there is no reason to think these fair skinned mulatto Libyans who were obviously Fulani and European in origin were ancestral to any modern day people.s They were likely absorbed into ancient libyan populations like the Tuareg and Romans and Scythians.

There is no reference to fair-skinned Berber tribe in the history books unless we want to consider the Tuareg fair in color.

.

Above the remarks are referring to the New Kingdom period, 1550–1070 B.C.

You say that these fair skinned mulatto Libyans were Fulani and European in origin.

The you say that they were likely absorbed into ancient libyan populations like the Tuareg and Romans and Scythians.

Who is this large mysterious Libyan population who everybody gets "absorbed" into?
Where is there archeological evidence of large premanent settlements in coastal North Africa prior to the Cartheginians?

You have referred to Libyans having a European component since
at least the New Kingdom period. Why do you assume everybody always mixed with other ethnicities across the board, every single group of Europeans of the period "absorbed" ?
Some populations remain in isolated areas, especially these rocky mounatinous regions such as the Atlas.
You're doing a lot of speculation.
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
We can not just assume because somebody lived in North Africa they were part of the people called Berber

"Berber" is not a term people of the region called themselves. Berber is a variation of the Latin original word Barbarian, earlier in history applied by Romans specifically to their northern hostile neighbors from Germania (modern Germany) and to the hostile Berbers of North Africa.The origins of both the names Berber and Amazigh is ambiguous. The oldest cited reference to "Amazigh" goes back to the neighboring ancient Egyptians when they mentioned an ancient Libyan tribe called Meshwesh. Those Meshwesh are supposed by some scholars to be the same ancient Libyan tribe that was mentioned as Maxyans by the Greek historian Herodotus.

Look at all the coins of the Numidian kings. I'm only showing a few of them below. The people don't look African.
Why is this? Were the people that made the coins incapable of depicting an African? Was it a conspiracy to make them look European?

Why do most coins depicting Numidan kings look like this:



Many, these Numidian kings do not look like this:

why?
 -

may or may not be Hannibal. But these various coins show they had representations of different phenotypes

yes the Tuaregs are also Berber, I give them their props. Like you quoted earlier, Berbers are a "composite people".
Is every branch intermarried ("absorbed") with every other branch? Some are some aren't.

Liyin_ ss I can never tell if you are kidding or what.

Why should these coins be pictures of Numidian kings when similar ones are found in Rome and when in fact national geographic mentions some of them thought to have been hannibal were in fact Roman generals.

Are you for real. just because someone on Mathilda pseudo anthropology forum said they were KITAMA and SAHNAJA KINGS as you have stated doesn't make it so. What happened to all of these Greek and Roman looking Sanhaja during the time of Butlan and why does Procopius call them black. He names these same Moor rulers in his book and says the Moors were black skinned UNLIKE THE VANDALS. Of course he didn't say "except for their rulers who looked like Greeks and Romans". [Confused]


HE AND OTHERS ALSO NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT BERBERS ALONG THE COASTS BEING FAIR IN COLOR.

Not everybody in Libya and north africa was a BERBER!

These names Jugurtha, Gildo, massinissa, Takfarinas etc. are names of the leaders of living Berber tribes according to scholars, with names like Kitama, Ifuraces or Iforas and other names associated with modern Tuareg. Why should these individuals have looked like Vandals and Romans when in the time of 14th they are referred to as "black" in color and black from the curse of Ham or Canaan. Why does ibn Khaldun go to such lengths to explain what people in his day thought about HOW THE BERBERS GOT BLACK-SKINNED.


So something is wrong with your logic, wouldn't you say. Or otherwise would we would have to say only the Moorish rulers looked like Romans while the rest looked like Tuareg and Songhai.

Why does Claudius say mixing with the Nasamonii Moors made for "hideous hybrids". Why does Corippus in the 6th century call the Moorish captives 'black as crows".

Why are the Sanhaja in times of Arab writers have the names of Tuareg tribess.

Do you understand that 1+ 3 does not equal -2. What is wrong is that you don't the history of North Africa and nor do most people writing about this topic.

The history of the Berber tribes of North Africa is well documented. These people had names and we know what they were called and how they were described until modern times.

Berber is not a vandal word nor is it derived from the same root as "barbarian". Because you are not interested in nor do you like black African people you do not know that these are two different words "Baribari" is the name of a black African people today still known as Barabir and Baribari. It has ALWAYS BEEN THAT WAY.

of course the people who speak Berber who you want to claim were Berbers don't call themselves by this name. Nor were they ever designated as such.

It was the name used for the Mauri Bavares or Babar a people of the mountains of Babor thought to be ancestral to the Imraguen and Haratin, and sometimes suspected to be ancestral to the black people (according to Butlan) known as Kitama (see UNESCO history of Africa).

The Mauri Bavares and Mauri Baquates were suspected to be related and the latter according to certain scholars became the Berghwata branch of the Masmuda. The same Masmuda who are referred to as blacks by Butlan, Abu Shama and Nasir Khusrau.

That is why what your compatriots write is nothing but repitition of nationalist rhetoric and not based on any historical evidence.

The Barbari are people known in Africa as having moved from the riff region of Abyssinia in ancient times. This name came to be transferred to the Tuareg, or else the Tuareg transferred it to the Wangara.

In any case neither of these people were originally fair in color.

That is why you do not ever hear of fair-skinned Berbers. The term refers to people that emigrated long after the Bronze Age into north Africa from EAST AFRICA.

The only people that are most assuredly from Bronze Age and neolithic African origin are the Haratin or Ikaradan(likely Badarian types), the Fulani or Barzu Fulitani and some of the Mande speakers.

No one is saying there was not some influx of a few non-African people into North Africa but for the most part Eurasiatics are not indicated in the skeletal record regardless of the dna interpretations of Mathilda pseudoresearch forum.

i guess you do know the ancient Berbers neolithic and Mesolithic peoples on both sides of the Mediterranean were for the most part mostly markedly dolichocephalic Africans, like the Egyptians, while todays very fair BERBER-SPEAKERS are NOT.

And southern Mediterraneans in Italy and Lebanon today for example are among the most brachycephalic people in the world.

The only testimony i can find is in the influx of the lateral headed people between the 2nd to 6th dynasties in some northern towns of Egypt. Nor is it reflected in the Saharan rock art until after the age of the "people of the sea", - unless those women riding oxen and possessing profiles (like something out of a 1960s French fashion institute) are fakes - as some historians suspect.

Lyin _ss - if you can not be rational I can not really assist you so you need to stop asking me questions. [Wink]

I remember you have also put up Greek coins of the Sabaean kingdom and called them Sabeans as well. [Frown]

 -

“the Fulbe or Fulahs of the Chad-zone sometimes braid the hair in a manner which strikingly recalls the Libyans of the monuments.” (The Eastern Libyans, Oric Bates, 1914, p. 136).

 -

These people of the western deserts of Egypt are depicted in the same exact color as the Egyptian pharaohs on the same walls and are wearing Fulani hairstyles, Lying A_s.

DEAL WITH IT! [Wink]

PS - still too bad I haven't found the old kingdom paintings YET by Nina Davies that look just like these people but even darker.

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

Everyone knows that the white Berbers, for the most part originate from the coasts. As Ausar says, their first historical appearance is in the New Kingdom.

Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop
African Origins of Civilization

p

in fact there is no reason to think these fair skinned mulatto Libyans who were obviously Fulani and European in origin were ancestral to any modern day people.s They were likely absorbed into ancient libyan populations like the Tuareg and Romans and Scythians.

There is no reference to fair-skinned Berber tribe in the history books unless we want to consider the Tuareg fair in color.

.

Above the remarks are referring to the New Kingdom period, 1550–1070 B.C.


quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
We can not just assume because somebody lived in North Africa they were part of the people called Berber

yes the Tuaregs are also Berber, I give them their props. Like you quoted earlier, Berbers are a "composite people".
Is every branch intermarried ("absorbed") with every other branch? Some are some aren't.

But - You don't get any props LYing.

knock, knock - is there wood in there, or just a numb skull. You just absorb what you want to, apparently. I already told you about the Maxyes.

Did I not post this previously. How many times do I need to repeat this. [Confused]

" the German historian Herbert Wendt noted that “the Negroes” depicted as servants and luxury slaves on vases in the Hellenic world were called Amaseos. He attributes this to them having been mocked as the folk of the Pharaoh known to the Greeks as Amasis. In the same paragraph, he adds, in Rome “every other slave was called Amasix, Maxyx, Maxitanus or simply Max” (Wendt, 1962, p. 66). Wendt refers to Amasis as a Berber king (Herbert Wendt,It began in Babel: The study of the birth and development of race and peoples. Houghton Mifflin Company, 1962, p. 57-58)."

Stephane Gsell quoted from the 4th century Expositio Totius Mundi in an early publication which says one population lived in the desert known both as “Mazices and Ethiopians”( Gsell, 1927, p. 2, Histoire Ancienne de L’Afrique du Nord, Les Royaumes Indigenes Organisation Sociale, Politique et Economique 43. Paris: Librairie Hachette

http://www.archive.org/stream/histoireancienn05gsel/histoireancienn05gsel_djvu.txt

The Mazikes i.e. Maxyes were ACCORDING TO SCHOLARS translations from Latin called "ETHIOPIANS" in ancient Roman texts.


So just try now with your numb skull to figure out why the people called Tuareg or Imoshagh were called "Ethiopians" - dimwitty.

 -

BTW - your repeated trolling is just allowing me to repeatedly get this info out to more people that can look it up and post it around the web.

Thank you! [Wink]

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
.

Which is it?

1. bni touzine
2. metalsa
3. bni buyahyi
4. bni said
5. temsaman
6. bni waryager
7. bni bu yafar
8. bni ulichek
9. bacuya
10. geznaya
11. ouled stut
12. kebdana`
13. bni sicar
14. terguist
15. bni iteft
16. bni bufrah
17. mestasa
18. bni erzin
19. metiua
20. bni smih
21. bni guerir
22. bni buzara
23. bni khalid
24. bni ahmed
25. bni zerwal
26. ketama
27. senhadja srir
28. bni buchibet
29. bni bechir
30. bni amart
31. geznaya
32. bni bu ifrur
33. bni sidel
34. ulad stut
35. mazuza
36. tafersit

None of them [Big Grin]

[QUOTE who="Afreekan"]as a black north african.. i can tell that im related to most of the north african (not all). i can say that the other non black looking north african that im related to, have black ancestry. our genealogic tree speaks by itself.

the average north african have nappy hair, blue/purple lips like obama (lol)..

european looking north african

 -

average north african


 -


black north african


 -

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the lioness,
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dana you need to be concise. Instead your method is too flood a post going off on a million tangents, rambling fragments of information all strung together in a rant. One point at a time girl. -thinking you can overwhelm the opponent in with verbose tidbits.
Van Sertima was creative in his etymology of the word "Berber" borrowing from the pure speculation of a 19th century author.
However it has nothing to do with the Baribari people or the word "Berebere". This type of things gets done all the time. In a multitude of African languages some words are similiar to others. It is then people try to draw connections out of coincidence. Show me any contemporary expert on N. Africa that has that alternate etymolgy for Berber.


quote:
Originally posted by danamarnish:

The history of the Berber tribes of North Africa is well documented. These people had names and we know what they were called and how they were described until modern times.

not at all It is not well documented. What documentation are your referring to? What are the titles? What books?The Berbers had virtually no written records contemporary to dyanstic Egypt. Early writings were in Phoenician. That should tell you something.

Do you want to continue with Van Sertima on Berbers? How about this from Golden Age of the Moor p 209:


Only in later times , after the 12th dynasty, do the paintings show other types under the same terms. Among the most common names for the Libyans in ancient Egypt are Tehenou, Temehou and Lebou. Another scholar more recently places the first appearanceof blond Libyans under the name of Temehou during the time of Seti of the 19th dynasty. The name Temehou previously referred to a land located to the west of the Nile in what is now called Libya and Sudan.

^^^ you wanted something prior to the 16th century. This refers to the 19th dynasty (1298 to 1187 bc) when the Egyptians first recorded these people. What is that 27 centuries before?
You lost the premise of you thread question a long time ago in this thread, by hundreds of years if not even earlier back to the 12th dynasty.

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malibudusul
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NEW! The History of North Africa
http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/North_Africa/North_African_History.htm

FAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!
 -

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
Dana..aka the female Clyde. You're a clown.*After you [fail] attempt to claim the Banu Sulaym as your own, you claim now the Berbers.
Most of the berbers have nothing to do with vandals and the Turks
The eurasian ancestors of the berbers have been in North Africa since more than 30,000 years..
What a clown.

your clown and nut that was cracked long ago by me. You will never be Berber. So get over it. [Wink]
Last time i checked, i have berber ancestries , i eat berber food, im from a berber arabized country and my family name is Berber.

Keep entertaining me, Clown.

You failed with the Banu Sulaym (whom i also descend from) and now you fail with the Berbers.

lets enumerate Dana "Darwisha" theories.
_The Banu Sulaym were blacks
_The Berbers were blacks before the 17th century.
_Most of the modern berbers are of Vandal and Turkish ancestries.

You probably dont want to see the genepool of the modern berbers, right? [Big Grin]

Giiirl

 -

Make up your mind - NEGRESS.

"You failed with the Banu Sulaym (whom i also descend from) and now you fail with the Berbers."

You posted the below a few days ago - REMEMBER!

“First of all, im black. ok? And certainly not because of the arabs

Are you aware that half of the Maghrebins have arab ancestries?
Do they look black to you? or do i need an eye exam?

Are you aware that the blacks in the arabian peninsula are moslty the offsprings of the Black Slaves from South East Africa?”


First you are not Arab and then you are A Sulaym DESCENDANT. First you are Beja and then you are not black. Probably just some white troll, that wants to be Beja. [Roll Eyes]

Go away hater! [Big Grin]

 -

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
dana you need to be concise. Instead your method is too flood a post going off on a million tangents, rambling fragments of information all strung together in a rant. One point at a time girl. -thinking you can overwhelm the opponent in with verbose tidbits.
Van Sertima was creative in his etymology of the word "Berber" borrowing from the pure speculation of a 19th century author.
However it has nothing to do with the Baribari people or the word "Berebere". This type of things gets done all the time. In a multitude of African languages some words are similiar to others. It is then people try to draw connections out of coincidence. Show me any contemporary expert on N. Africa that has that alternate etymolgy for Berber.


quote:
Originally posted by danamarnish:

The history of the Berber tribes of North Africa is well documented. These people had names and we know what they were called and how they were described until modern times.

not at all It is not well documented. What documentation are your referring to? What are the titles? What books?The Berbers had virtually no written records contemporary to dyanstic Egypt. Early writings were in Phoenician. That should tell you something.

Do you want to continue with Van Sertima on Berbers? How about this from Golden Age of the Moor p 209:


Only in later times , after the 12th dynasty, do the paintings show other types under the same terms. Among the most common names for the Libyans in ancient Egypt are Tehenou, Temehou and Lebou. Another scholar more recently places the first appearanceof blond Libyans under the name of Temehou during the time of Seti of the 19th dynasty. The name Temehou previously referred to a land located to the west of the Nile in what is now called Libya and Sudan.

^^^ you wanted something prior to the 16th century. This refers to the 19th dynasty (1298 to 1187 bc) when the Egyptians first recorded these people. What is that 27 centuries before?
You lost the premise of you thread question a long time ago in this thread, by hundreds of years if not even earlier back to the 12th dynasty.

LOL! Why do you keep quoting from what I wrote ,young lady.

Did I ever say those blond people wearing furs and no braids in their hair were ancestral to later people called "Berbers".i.e. Mauri.

I guess you are so thick headed you still don't know who i am.

Get this straight - in case your numbskull doesn't know it yet.

I am the one wrote that authored that article 20 years ago.

I am the one that coaxed Dr. Van Sertima into editing and publishing the book - Golden Age of the Moors.

Lastly, I am thus probably THE REASON we are even talking about the subject on this forum, or on any forum.

GOT IT! [Big Grin]

BTW - and its only the beginning.

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by malibudusul:
NEW! The History of North Africa
http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/North_Africa/North_African_History.htm

FAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!
 -

I hate to say this, malibudusul, but I don't see anything on the site which says that painting of women on oxen is fake. Although it does look like someone without a sense of proportion tried to copy the things Fulani women wear on their heads.

That's the problem. Where does someone say that particular painting was suspected of being fake, not that that doesn't mean it wasn't fake.

Women in Kanem ride oxen like this,as the Garamantians did, but of course these women are black.

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the Iioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
.

Which is it?

1. bni touzine
2. metalsa
3. bni buyahyi
4. bni said
5. temsaman
6. bni waryager
7. bni bu yafar
8. bni ulichek
9. bacuya
10. geznaya
11. ouled stut
12. kebdana`
13. bni sicar
14. terguist
15. bni iteft
16. bni bufrah
17. mestasa
18. bni erzin
19. metiua
20. bni smih
21. bni guerir
22. bni buzara
23. bni khalid
24. bni ahmed
25. bni zerwal
26. ketama
27. senhadja srir
28. bni buchibet
29. bni bechir
30. bni amart
31. geznaya
32. bni bu ifrur
33. bni sidel
34. ulad stut
35. mazuza
36. tafersit

None of them [Big Grin]

[QUOTE who="Afreekan"]as a black north african.. i can tell that im related to most of the north african (not all). i can say that the other non black looking north african that im related to, have black ancestry. our genealogic tree speaks by itself.

the average north african have nappy hair, blue/purple lips like obama (lol)..

european looking north african

 -

average north african


 -


black north african


 -

and?
Posts: 558 | From: forum | Registered: Jul 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the Iioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
Dana..aka the female Clyde. You're a clown.*After you [fail] attempt to claim the Banu Sulaym as your own, you claim now the Berbers.
Most of the berbers have nothing to do with vandals and the Turks
The eurasian ancestors of the berbers have been in North Africa since more than 30,000 years..
What a clown.

your clown and nut that was cracked long ago by me. You will never be Berber. So get over it. [Wink]
Last time i checked, i have berber ancestries , i eat berber food, im from a berber arabized country and my family name is Berber.

Keep entertaining me, Clown.

You failed with the Banu Sulaym (whom i also descend from) and now you fail with the Berbers.

lets enumerate Dana "Darwisha" theories.
_The Banu Sulaym were blacks
_The Berbers were blacks before the 17th century.
_Most of the modern berbers are of Vandal and Turkish ancestries.

You probably dont want to see the genepool of the modern berbers, right? [Big Grin]

Giiirl

 -

Make up your mind - NEGRESS.

"You failed with the Banu Sulaym (whom i also descend from) and now you fail with the Berbers."

You posted the below a few days ago - REMEMBER!

“First of all, im black. ok? And certainly not because of the arabs

Are you aware that half of the Maghrebins have arab ancestries?
Do they look black to you? or do i need an eye exam?

Are you aware that the blacks in the arabian peninsula are moslty the offsprings of the Black Slaves from South East Africa?”


First you are not Arab and then you are A Sulaym DESCENDANT. First you are Beja and then you are not black. Probably just some white troll, that wants to be Beja. [Roll Eyes]

Go away hater! [Big Grin]

 -

Clown. i am not arab. im part arab. Thats different. ive never said i was not black, clown.
And, you are probably unaware that i have NUBIAN ancestries. Thats right clown.
The majority of my family do not "look black". clown.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
Originally posted by the lioness

not at all It is not well documented. What documentation are your referring to? What are the titles? What books?The Berbers had virtually no written records contemporary to dyanstic Egypt. Early writings were in Phoenician. That should tell you something.

Do you want to continue with Van Sertima on Berbers? How about this from Golden Age of the Moor p 209:


Only in later times , after the 12th dynasty, do the paintings show other types under the same terms. Among the most common names for the Libyans in ancient Egypt are Tehenou, Temehou and Lebou. Another scholar more recently places the first appearanceof blond Libyans under the name of Temehou during the time of Seti of the 19th dynasty. The name Temehou previously referred to a land located to the west of the Nile in what is now called Libya and Sudan.

^^^ you wanted something prior to the 16th century. This refers to the 19th dynasty (1298 to 1187 bc) when the Egyptians first recorded these people. What is that 27 centuries before?
You lost the premise of you thread question a long time ago in this thread, by hundreds of years if not even earlier back to the 12th dynasty. [/qb]

quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

! Why do you keep quoting from what I wrote ,young lady.

Did I ever say those blond people wearing furs and no braids in their hair were ancestral to later people called "Berbers".i.e. Mauri.

I guess you are so thick headed you still don't know who i am.

Get this straight - in case your numbskull doesn't know it yet.

I am the one wrote that authored that article 20 years ago.

I am the one that coaxed Dr. Van Sertima into editing and publishing the book - Golden Age of the Moors.

Lastly, I am thus probably THE REASON we are even talking about the subject on this forum, or on any forum.

GOT IT! [Big Grin]

BTW - and its only the beginning. [/QB]

I knew you were associated with Van Sertima but overlooked your associating to this particular article.

But it's irrelevant.
Where is a comtemporary scholar on N. Africa who says Berber is derived from Baribari?

Many scholars and Berbers themselves would include Tehenou, Temehou and Lebou in their ancestry.

The definition of Berber is not a fixed thing and the Berber culture is comprised of a number of tribes including the Tuareg and the Tehenou, Temehou, Lebou and others. perhaps including the Sea people.

Why are we dicussing "Berber"? You agreed that the people didn't and don't call themselves that. How about "Imazighen"

You are simply trying to make yourself an authorty of who has the right to call themselves Imazighen.

The people who have the right are the people who speak the language, live on the land and maintain the culture, not Miss dana.

This includes decendants of Phoenicians and Sea People who go back to the 19th dyansty of Egypt period perhaps as far as the 12th dyn who became part of the Imazighen.

There were large immigrations from Vandals and Phoenicians.
Where is the archaeological evidence that there were large populations of coastal North Africans before them?
I'm not speaking of the interior of Algeria I'm speaking of the coastal areas.
There is no way of knowing how many people if any lived in some of these coastal regions in ancient times.
With no evidence you assume there were large numbers of people there, large enough to "absorb" large immigrations of which there is ample evidence of people from the other side of the Mediterranean in ancient times.

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melchior7
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jari,

This is the scoop on your Siwa Berbers..
Many historical sources state that the Siwa Oasis was a major stop along the slave caravan route:

"The Sanusi continued to dominate the Oasis for many years, and it was a popular crossing for their caravans, particularly those transporting slaves from Kufra. The locals helped in this endeavor, and many of the slaves remained in the Siwa, where many of their descendents remain today.

Within the 20th Century, the first Egyptian ruler to visit the Siwa Oasis was Abbas II, but even he had to disguise his Austrian wife as an Egyptian army officer. He went there in style, with a vanguard consisting of 62 camels and a main entourage of 228 camels and 22 horses.."

The folks from Kufra were Nilo Saharan tribes like the Tebu.

"The most pronounced slavery activity involved the enslavement of black Africans who were brought via trans-Saharan trade routes. For example, in the 1830s - a period of time when slave trade flourished - Ghadamis was handling 2,500 slaves a year[1]. Even though the slave trade was officially abolished in Tripoli in 1853, in practice it continued until the 1890s[2]. The British Consul in Benghazi wrote in 1875 to the effect that the slave trade had reached an enormous scale and that the slaves who were sold in Alexandria and Istanbul quadruple in price. This trade he says was encouraged by the local Government[2]. Adolf Vischer, writes in an article published in 1911 that:"...it has been said that slave traffic is still going on on the Benghazi-Wadai route, but it is difficult to test the truth of such an assertion as, in any case, the traffic is carried on secretly"[3]. At Kufra, the Egyptian traveller Ahmed Hassanein Bey found out in 1916 that he could buy a girl slave for 5 pounds sterling while in 1923 he found that the price had become 30 to 40 pounds sterling.[4]. Another traveler, the Muslim Danish Knud Holmboe, who crossed the Italian Libyan dessert in 1930 was told that slavery is still practiced in Kufra and that he could buy a slave girl for 30 Sterlings in the Thursday market."
^ a b Wright, John (2007). The trans-Saharan slave trade. New York: Routledge. ISBN 0-415-38046-4.


"The inhabitants of Siwa are Berbers mixed with Bedouins and the descendants of Sudanese slaves. The oasis has altogether about 25 000 inhabitants living in six settlements. The town of Siwa with about 12 000 inhabitants is the economic center of the oasis. The other places are Aghurmi, Abu Shuruf, Kamisa, Balad Al Rum and Bahi Al Din, in descending sequence according to their population."
http://www.segap.de/siwa-en.html

The record is consistent.

"Siwa is also an important - and the last - stop on the caravan route before the Libyan Desert. The Berber inheritance is manifested in the red hair and blue eyes in some of the inhabitants, whereas the former slave market has brought with it the dark skin and other African features.

The present day Siwans form two distinct families, the eastern and the western, each divided into smaller communities. The family elders have been and continue to be very important in solving disputes, preserving tradition, administering justice and acting as scribes recording Siwan events. No intermarriage occurs between the eastern and western families, and the dark African and Berber blood are not allowed to mix in marriage either."

http://www.outiofcairo.com/articles/siwa.html

--------------------
In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth.

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melchior7
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Atually Bilad es Sudan among the Syrians refers to Central Arabia as well as parts of southern Asia in various periods, just as Bernard Lewis stated it.

That is because the name Sudan referred to Arab tribes as well as Canaanites and Berbers.

That is why people like the Maghrawa of the Zanata are called "Maghrawat es- Sudani" by Arabized persons like Idrisi.


Is this the Bilad es Sudan you are talking about Melchior -
"Among the descendants of Sudan, son of Kan'an are many nations among them the Ishban (Asben), the Zanj, and many peoples that MULTIPLIED IN THE MAGHRIB about 70 of them." Akhbar al Zaman of the Syrian al Masudi

Al Dimasqi wrote a Chapter entitling it "The Fifth Century of the (th Chapter concerning the sons of Ham son of Noah (peace be upon him) namely the Copts, the Nabataeans, the Berbers and the Sudan with their numerous divisions.


The first thing he states is "The historians assert that the cause of the black complexions of the sons of Ham is that he had..." etc.

From Corpus of early Arabic Sources of West African History, Levtsion and Hopkins, p. 212.

Ibn Khaldun of Tunisia mentions this same thing.

You see Melchior - the early "Near Easterners" didn't distinguish between the blackness of a man of the Sudan and those of the Berbers because in that time they were basically indistinguishable in color, if not in features.

They didn't know people like you were going to come around later and start naming the descendants of Vandals, Romans and European slaves and mercenaries "BERBERS", and start making the descendants of Arabs and Canaanites into modern fair-skinned Syrians.


I am sorry for your loss.


Syrians are in the damn Levant. We are talking about Arabs in general.

"soudan, or Sudan (Bilad es-Sudan, "Country of the Blacks"), a term applied by mediaeval Arab geographers to the region of Africa south of the Sahara mainly inhabited by peoples of Negro blood, hence corresponding to the expressions Nigritia, Negroland, at one time current amongst European writers. It liens mainly between 5° and 18° N. lat., consequently entirely within the tropics, and in its widest sense stretches right across the continent from Cape Verd on the Atlantic to Massowah on the Red Sea. But the term is more usually restricted to the region bounded N. by the Sahara, S. by Upper Guinea and the lands draining to the Congo basin, W. and E. by Senegambia and the Abyssinian highlands repressively (see vol. 1. plate II.).

Desert-dwelling animists were part of the Dar el Harb,
and could be enslaved so that the boundary between the Dar el Harb and Islam in North
West Africa roughly followed the old Roman (Christian) frontier. A slave trade bringing
Saharans and sub-Saharans through the desert to North Africa, which existed in Roman
times, continued and documentary evidence in the Nile Valley shows it to have been regulated
there by treaty. In succeeding centuries the desert routes were increasingly used as
camel nomadism became commoner and the frontier of the Dar el Harb was pushed
further and further southwards until in the twelfth to thirteenth centuries it had reached
Islam, archaeology and slavery in Africa 45
the West African forest zone and the sub-Saharan savannahs became known as the Bilad
es Sudan (the land of the blacks) and the source of slaves. The nature of this trade and
the use of slaves in the savannahs will be discussed below.
The second Muslim penetration of Africa followed a different course
http://faculty.ksu.edu.sa/archaeology/Publications/Islamic%20Archaeology/Islam,%20archaeology%20and%20slavery%20in%20Africa.pdf

And it turns out the Berbers themselves have their own term for Blacks. And the also call the land south of the Sahara "and of the Blacks"

"tymologically speaking, the meaning of Gnawa likely derives from the Berber word aguinaw, which is connected with skin color. It means “black man” in contrast with the white Berber. This word could be itself the origin of the name Guinea because akal n-iguinamen in Berber means the “land of the black men” just like the Arabic term bilad as-sudan, which means, “land of the black people.” The term was also adopted by the Portuguese and appeared mainly as “Guinea” on European maps dating from the 14th century."
http://www.afropop.org/multi/feature/ID/618

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melchior7
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Dana, please stop appealing to racists. They are racists. Of course they are going to do everything in their power to erase, downplay, ignore and outright lie about anything that shows black people in a positive light. They been doing it for hundreds of years. People like that cannot be reasoned with through logic. They are simply trolls and should be ignored.

Umm.. Why am I a racist again? Because I believe that the Berbers were mostly Eurasian? Because that's esentially what Iam arguing about here. If that makes me a racist in your view then you are a pathetically feeble minded moron with serious self esteem issues to boot. Get help!
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melchior7
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quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Has anyone else noticed this clown talks out of his ass.


WHERE IS YOUR PROOF WHITE SLAVES ONLY WENT TO CITIES..


From BBC

There are no records of how many men, women and children were enslaved, but it is possible to calculate roughly the number of fresh captives that would have been needed to keep populations steady and replace those slaves who died, escaped, were ransomed, or converted to Islam.


Unlike the Western Slave Trade No Documents Exist Detailing where slaves ended up...

On this basis it is thought that around 8,500 new slaves were needed annually to replenish numbers - about 850,000 captives over the century from 1580 to 1680.

A Million White Eurpean Slaves are taken to North Africa and somehow had no impact on the native Population...Get Real...SMH


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

Because you know that most of the slaves went to the cities
[/QB][/QUOTE]


Did you not read what was posted about slaves being bought by the pashas sent to the harems and banios? Men being used for contrsuction projects?? Who had the money to purchase slaves??? Where would the major markets have been? And where the Fcuk did I say it had no effect on the native population?? Don't put words in my mouth just because you're not good at making a sensible argument. Obvioulsy the slaves will go the most affluent and would be sold in a market that is the most accesible to would be buiyers..that is the major urban centers. Comon sense!

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malibudusul
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by malibudusul:
NEW! The History of North Africa
http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/North_Africa/North_African_History.htm

FAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!
 -

I hate to say this, malibudusul, but I don't see anything on the site which says that painting of women on oxen is fake. Although it does look like someone without a sense of proportion tried to copy the things Fulani women wear on their heads.

That's the problem. Where does someone say that particular painting was suspected of being fake, not that that doesn't mean it wasn't fake.

Women in Kanem ride oxen like this,as the Garamantians did, but of course these women are black.

"Some of the rock art faked by Henri Lhote"
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melchior7
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Well even more than that you have to understand what racism is. It isn't concerned about facts it only cares about its ability to push its own agenda.

I mean why on earth do we need to resurrect no less than 3 old threads and create new ones to restate the same things that have been stated so many times here before. These people haven't challenged those facts. They simply ignore it because that is their agenda.

And just to be clear, it isn't that anyone here claims that were never any whites in North Africa through history. No, the opposite is true, they claim that there were never any blacks native to north Africa and therefore present throughout history which is a totally demonstrable and provable lie.

dana started this, she is trying to say that non Africans who settled into North Africa prior to the 16th century are not real Berbers, they are fake Berbers. Naturally people react. Even Dr. Clyde Winters has a different view on this.
She is the one trying to racilize Berbers saying they are 100% African only and that they are basically Fulani and Tuareg.
So don't come in here like she didn't start with an agenda.
The thread title uses the term "Caucasian" as if it is valid, like wise "Negroid" would also be valid in her premise and her premise is an either/or proposition, a one or the other set up.
Berber is a language and culture she wants to make it into race and try to justify it because some fools on the opposite extreme, doing the exact same exclusivisizing, would not include Tuareg.
It's an excuse to be reverse racist. The people are who they say they are, who speak the language and maintained the traditions.

I am actually being very objective. Did I ever say anything about fake. Am I a fact AngloAmerican because I live in the U.S. I speak the English because i live in America and some of my ancestors spoke it. But most English didn't look like me now did they!

If I were racisti.e. nationalist I would be saying that the original Englishman of the King James era looked like me or Obama. [Roll Eyes]

People should celebrate their heritage and not ignore history. Modern Berber-SPEAKERS descend from many different groups, and the original ones were NEAR BLACK IN COLOR.


AS WERE THE MESOLITHIC/NEOLITHIC SPANIARDS AND MOST SOUTHERN MEDITERRANEANS!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Big Grin]

 -
Eastern Spain

FACE FACTS!

I asked for documentation on this, where is it? Funny how you allow for Blacks to cross into Europe in prehistoric times, but you refuse to believe that Europeans crossed over during the Ice age??

Admit, you are racially biased, to say the least.

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melchior7
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Dana,

More descriptions of North Africa by Arabs. this from Ibn Khaldūn:

"The human inhabitants of these zones are more temperate (well-proportioned) in their bodies, color, character qualities, and (general) conditions214 They are found to be extremely moderate in their dwellings, clothing, food­stuffs, and crafts. They use houses that are well constructed of stone and embellished by craftsmanship. They rival each other in production of the very best tools and implements. Among them, one finds the natural minerals, such as gold, silver, iron, copper, lead, and tin. In their business dealings they use the two precious metals (gold and silver). They avoid intemperance quite generally in all their conditions. Such are the inhabitants of the Maghrib, of Syria, the two 'Iraqs, Western India (as-Sind), and China, as well as of Spain; also the European Christians nearby, the Galicians,215 and all those who live together with these peoples or near them in the three temperate zones. The 'Iraq and Syria are directly in the middle and therefore are the most temperate of all these countries.

Notice he lumps Maghrebians in with Southern Europeans, Middle easterners and Chinese, people with moderate complexions..

And Blacks.

"The black color (of skin) common to the inhabitants of the first and second zones is the result of the composition of the air in which they live, and which comes about under the influence of the greatly increased heat in the south. The sun is at the zenith there twice a year at short intervals. In (al­most) all seasons, the sun is in culmination for a long time. The light of the sun, therefore, is plentiful.220 People there have (to undergo) a very severe summer, and their skins turn black because of the excessive heat."http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ik/Muqaddimah/Chapter1/Ch_1_03.htm

Al Bakri in his writings also made a distinction between Berbers and Blacks to the South.

http://tinyurl.com/6j3v93w

And here we have a depiction of Moors from mideival Spain. Only one brotha??
 -

SOMEBODY IS LYING!

--------------------
In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth.

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melchior7
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"Algeria
STRUCTURE OF SOCIETY


The heterogeneous population of the cities included men of mixed Turkish and Algerian descent called Kouloughli Moors, a term coined by the French to refer to descendants of Andalusian refugees; Christian slaves from around the Mediterranean captured by Barbary Coast pirates; and African slaves who worked as laborers and domestics. The cities also had small Jewish communities that would become more important under the French colonial system. Many cities had small groups of Mzab who owned grocery and butcher shops and operated the public baths, and Kabyles who came briefly to the cities before returning to their areas of origin."
http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-366.html

--------------------
In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth.

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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Dumbass if Slaves in Barbary went to affluent owners how the f-ck did Slaves alter the siwi Berbers who are an Isolated group of people and who don't admix with non Siwi Berbers.

You lying bitch, you are the one who cant put an argument together. If the Black Slave Trade could alter and produce black berbers the same is true for white Berbers.

Over a Million something white slaves went to Barbary and We are to expect not one went to Berber Villages and areas, BTW, Dumbass the Berbers live in the Major cities dumbfuck. Majority of black slaves ALSO, dumbass.

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Has anyone else noticed this clown talks out of his ass.


WHERE IS YOUR PROOF WHITE SLAVES ONLY WENT TO CITIES..


From BBC

There are no records of how many men, women and children were enslaved, but it is possible to calculate roughly the number of fresh captives that would have been needed to keep populations steady and replace those slaves who died, escaped, were ransomed, or converted to Islam.


Unlike the Western Slave Trade No Documents Exist Detailing where slaves ended up...

On this basis it is thought that around 8,500 new slaves were needed annually to replenish numbers - about 850,000 captives over the century from 1580 to 1680.

A Million White Eurpean Slaves are taken to North Africa and somehow had no impact on the native Population...Get Real...SMH


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

Because you know that most of the slaves went to the cities

Did you not read what was posted about slaves being bought by the pashas sent to the harems and banios? Men being used for contrsuction projects?? Who had the money to purchase slaves??? Where would the major markets have been? And where the Fcuk did I say it had no effect on the native population?? Don't put words in my mouth just because you're not good at making a sensible argument. Obvioulsy the slaves will go the most affluent and would be sold in a market that is the most accesible to would be buiyers..that is the major urban centers. Comon sense! [/QB][/QUOTE]
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-Just Call Me Jari-
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quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
jari,

This is the scoop on your Siwa Berbers..
Many historical sources state that the Siwa Oasis was a major stop along the slave caravan route:



None of your sources mention anything about a large scale of slaves mixing with the Siwa. I will dismantle your argument with your own sources and prove your bias.


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

"The Sanusi continued to dominate the Oasis for many years, and it was a popular crossing for their caravans, particularly those transporting slaves from Kufra. The locals helped in this endeavor, and many of the slaves remained in the Siwa, where many of their descendents remain today.
http://www.outiofcairo.com/articles/siwa.html

Where in this does it say that the Siwa Berbers(Whom are Pictured) mixed with the Slaves on a Large Scale??

Can you comprehend your won source??


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Within the 20th Century, the first Egyptian ruler to visit the Siwa Oasis was Abbas II, but even he had to disguise his Austrian wife as an Egyptian army officer. He went there in style, with a vanguard consisting of 62 camels and a main entourage of 228 camels and 22 horses.."

The folks from Kufra were Nilo Saharan tribes like the Tebu.

Do you know where Kufra is?? Its a hop and skip away from Siwa and located in North africa AKA Lybia.

[img]http://maps.ihs.com/basin-monitor-ordering-service/africa/images/410000oil-and-gas-al-kufra-basin.jpg[img]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kufra

Kufra's natives are Nilo Saharan Tebu but Siwa and the Rest of North Africa have no native blacks..LMAO. Fail.

Also You still have not proven large scale Intermixing with Siwa Berbers.


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
"The most pronounced slavery activity involved the enslavement of black Africans who were brought via trans-Saharan trade routes. For example, in the 1830s - a period of time when slave trade flourished - Ghadamis was handling 2,500 slaves a year[1]. Even though the slave trade was officially abolished in Tripoli in 1853, in practice it continued until the 1890s[2]. The British Consul in Benghazi wrote in 1875 to the effect that the slave trade had reached an enormous scale and that the slaves who were sold in Alexandria and Istanbul quadruple in price. This trade he says was encouraged by the local Government[2]. Adolf Vischer, writes in an article published in 1911 that:"...it has been said that slave traffic is still going on on the Benghazi-Wadai route, but it is difficult to test the truth of such an assertion as, in any case, the traffic is carried on secretly"[3]. At Kufra, the Egyptian traveller Ahmed Hassanein Bey found out in 1916 that he could buy a girl slave for 5 pounds sterling while in 1923 he found that the price had become 30 to 40 pounds sterling.[4]. Another traveler, the Muslim Danish Knud Holmboe, who crossed the Italian Libyan dessert in 1930 was told that slavery is still practiced in Kufra and that he could buy a slave girl for 30 Sterlings in the Thursday market."
^ a b Wright, John (2007). The trans-Saharan slave trade. New York: Routledge. ISBN 0-415-38046-4.



None of this has anything to do with Siwa, Next..


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
"The inhabitants of Siwa are Berbers mixed with Bedouins and the descendants of Sudanese slaves. The oasis has altogether about 25 000 inhabitants living in six settlements. The town of Siwa with about 12 000 inhabitants is the economic center of the oasis. The other places are Aghurmi, Abu Shuruf, Kamisa, Balad Al Rum and Bahi Al Din, in descending sequence according to their population."
http://www.segap.de/siwa-en.html

The record is consistent.

It is really consistant or are you playing google scholar?? First you claim(Your Evidence) says the slaves were Tebu(Did no Admix with the Siwans), now Sudanese and Bedouin people...Make up your mind, where is your evidence that Siwa imported Sudanese Slaves??


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
jari,"Siwa is also an important - and the last - stop on the caravan route before the Libyan Desert. The Berber inheritance is manifested in the red hair and blue eyes in some of the inhabitants, whereas the former slave market has brought with it the dark skin and other African features.

The present day Siwans form two distinct families, the eastern and the western, each divided into smaller communities. The family elders have been and continue to be very important in solving disputes, preserving tradition, administering justice and acting as scribes recording Siwan events. No intermarriage occurs between the eastern and western families, and the dark African and Berber blood are not allowed to mix in marriage either."

http://www.outiofcairo.com/articles/siwa.html

What is this rubbish bases on. Where are the White Red Headed Blue Eyed Siwans?? WHERE ARE THEY And to make it worse your source contradicts itself by claiming the Berbers and slaves DON'T ADMIX. Dumbfuck. Nothing in that proves squat.
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-Just Call Me Jari-
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Siwa Berbers

From their own mouth..

We originate from the North African Berber tribes known as Amazigh. We are the Siwan Berbers. Because of our geographical isolation we have remained relatively unchanged.

http://www.siwaoasis.com/siwa_culture.html

Their Practices which are African in Character have not changed for years..

Siwan's are warm friendly people who will say hello and let you on your way. The children are friendly and 'What is your name" will be ringing in your ears on a return to the Villa from wondering around the back streets of the town. Walk further away from the market area and you will become the focus of interest with the level of "what is your name!" increasing with every 100 m walked. They are great people and very different from the rest of Egypt. They are more african in their ways and they do not constantly hassle you for money like most other places in Egypt. Any offer of a trip to their garden or house for tea is genuine and you will be welcome as long as you like.

http://www.somewheredifferent.com/siwa/siwa-locals.htm


More Importantly....

Their DNA links them to East Africa(Where the Berber Language originated in the first place)


The mitochondrial DNA variation of 295 Berber-speakers from Morocco (Asni, Bouhria and Figuig) and the Egyptian oasis of Siwa was evaluated by sequencing a portion of the control region (including HVS-I and part of HVS-II) and surveying haplogroup-specific coding region markers. Our findings show that the Berber mitochondrial pool is characterized by an overall high frequency of Western Eurasian haplogroups, a somehow lower frequency of sub-Saharan L lineages, and a significant (but differential) presence of North African haplogroups U6 and M1, thus occupying an intermediate position between European and sub-Saharan populations in PCA analysis. A clear and significant genetic differentiation between the Berbers from Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers was also observed. The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa. We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations.

Large groups of Siwa Berbers..

 -


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 -

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 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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http://www.outiofcairo.com/bio.html
^^^^
Liar7's end all source that claims the Siwans were originally "Red Heads" and mixed with black slaves...

but even his own page debunks him..

No intermarriage occurs between the eastern and western families, and the dark African and Berber blood are not allowed to mix in marriage either.

Unfortunately for Liar7 the Elders of the Western Family are what we call "black Africans".

Siwa Elders

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -


Im gonna keep bitch slapping that ass with Truth!!!


quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
jari,

This is the scoop on your Siwa Berbers..
Many historical sources state that the Siwa Oasis was a major stop along the slave caravan route:



None of your sources mention anything about a large scale of slaves mixing with the Siwa. I will dismantle your argument with your own sources and prove your bias.


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

"The Sanusi continued to dominate the Oasis for many years, and it was a popular crossing for their caravans, particularly those transporting slaves from Kufra. The locals helped in this endeavor, and many of the slaves remained in the Siwa, where many of their descendents remain today.
http://www.outiofcairo.com/articles/siwa.html

Where in this does it say that the Siwa Berbers(Whom are Pictured) mixed with the Slaves on a Large Scale??

Can you comprehend your won source??


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Within the 20th Century, the first Egyptian ruler to visit the Siwa Oasis was Abbas II, but even he had to disguise his Austrian wife as an Egyptian army officer. He went there in style, with a vanguard consisting of 62 camels and a main entourage of 228 camels and 22 horses.."

The folks from Kufra were Nilo Saharan tribes like the Tebu.

Do you know where Kufra is?? Its a hop and skip away from Siwa and located in North africa AKA Lybia.

[img]http://maps.ihs.com/basin-monitor-ordering-service/africa/images/410000oil-and-gas-al-kufra-basin.jpg[img]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kufra

Kufra's natives are Nilo Saharan Tebu but Siwa and the Rest of North Africa have no native blacks..LMAO. Fail.

Also You still have not proven large scale Intermixing with Siwa Berbers.


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
"The most pronounced slavery activity involved the enslavement of black Africans who were brought via trans-Saharan trade routes. For example, in the 1830s - a period of time when slave trade flourished - Ghadamis was handling 2,500 slaves a year[1]. Even though the slave trade was officially abolished in Tripoli in 1853, in practice it continued until the 1890s[2]. The British Consul in Benghazi wrote in 1875 to the effect that the slave trade had reached an enormous scale and that the slaves who were sold in Alexandria and Istanbul quadruple in price. This trade he says was encouraged by the local Government[2]. Adolf Vischer, writes in an article published in 1911 that:"...it has been said that slave traffic is still going on on the Benghazi-Wadai route, but it is difficult to test the truth of such an assertion as, in any case, the traffic is carried on secretly"[3]. At Kufra, the Egyptian traveller Ahmed Hassanein Bey found out in 1916 that he could buy a girl slave for 5 pounds sterling while in 1923 he found that the price had become 30 to 40 pounds sterling.[4]. Another traveler, the Muslim Danish Knud Holmboe, who crossed the Italian Libyan dessert in 1930 was told that slavery is still practiced in Kufra and that he could buy a slave girl for 30 Sterlings in the Thursday market."
^ a b Wright, John (2007). The trans-Saharan slave trade. New York: Routledge. ISBN 0-415-38046-4.



None of this has anything to do with Siwa, Next..


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
"The inhabitants of Siwa are Berbers mixed with Bedouins and the descendants of Sudanese slaves. The oasis has altogether about 25 000 inhabitants living in six settlements. The town of Siwa with about 12 000 inhabitants is the economic center of the oasis. The other places are Aghurmi, Abu Shuruf, Kamisa, Balad Al Rum and Bahi Al Din, in descending sequence according to their population."
http://www.segap.de/siwa-en.html

The record is consistent.

It is really consistant or are you playing google scholar?? First you claim(Your Evidence) says the slaves were Tebu(Did no Admix with the Siwans), now Sudanese and Bedouin people...Make up your mind, where is your evidence that Siwa imported Sudanese Slaves??


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
jari,"Siwa is also an important - and the last - stop on the caravan route before the Libyan Desert. The Berber inheritance is manifested in the red hair and blue eyes in some of the inhabitants, whereas the former slave market has brought with it the dark skin and other African features.

The present day Siwans form two distinct families, the eastern and the western, each divided into smaller communities. The family elders have been and continue to be very important in solving disputes, preserving tradition, administering justice and acting as scribes recording Siwan events. No intermarriage occurs between the eastern and western families, and the dark African and Berber blood are not allowed to mix in marriage either."

http://www.outiofcairo.com/articles/siwa.html

What is this rubbish bases on. Where are the White Red Headed Blue Eyed Siwans?? WHERE ARE THEY And to make it worse your source contradicts itself by claiming the Berbers and slaves DON'T ADMIX. Dumbfuck. Nothing in that proves squat.


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Brada-Anansi
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 - <>  -

Just^ look like avarage Blk folk to me just saying!!!

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melchior7
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quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Dumbass if Slaves in Barbary went to affluent owners how the f-ck did Slaves alter the siwi Berbers who are an Isolated group of people and who don't admix with non Siwi Berbers.

You lying bitch, you are the one who cant put an argument together. If the Black Slave Trade could alter and produce black berbers the same is true for white Berbers.

Over a Million something white slaves went to Barbary and We are to expect not one went to Berber Villages and areas, BTW, Dumbass the Berbers live in the Major cities dumbfuck. Majority of black slaves ALSO, dumbass.

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Has anyone else noticed this clown talks out of his ass.


WHERE IS YOUR PROOF WHITE SLAVES ONLY WENT TO CITIES..


From BBC

There are no records of how many men, women and children were enslaved, but it is possible to calculate roughly the number of fresh captives that would have been needed to keep populations steady and replace those slaves who died, escaped, were ransomed, or converted to Islam.


Unlike the Western Slave Trade No Documents Exist Detailing where slaves ended up...

On this basis it is thought that around 8,500 new slaves were needed annually to replenish numbers - about 850,000 captives over the century from 1580 to 1680.

A Million White Eurpean Slaves are taken to North Africa and somehow had no impact on the native Population...Get Real...SMH


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

Because you know that most of the slaves went to the cities

Did you not read what was posted about slaves being bought by the pashas sent to the harems and banios? Men being used for contrsuction projects?? Who had the money to purchase slaves??? Where would the major markets have been? And where the Fcuk did I say it had no effect on the native population?? Don't put words in my mouth just because you're not good at making a sensible argument. Obvioulsy the slaves will go the most affluent and would be sold in a market that is the most accesible to would be buiyers..that is the major urban centers. Comon sense!
Why you gettin all mad and callin me out my name? I thought we were trying to ascertain facts? I thought you were impartial. You seriously need to stop, look and read. The slaves in Siwa did not come from barbary pirates on the coast, Siwa was a stopping point on the Black slave caravan routes. That's how they ended up there. As for how much did the slaves contribute to the Siwa. One thing you may not know is that the Siwa population at one time was on the verge of extinction.

"However, by 1203 we are told that the population of the Siwa Oasis had declined to as low as 40 men from seven families due to constant attacks and particularly after a rather viscous Bedouin assault. In order to found a more secure settlement, they moved from the ancient town of Aghurmi and established the present city called Shali, which simply means town. This new fortified town was built with only three gates. An Islamic historian, Maqrizi, explains that soon after there were 600 people living in the Oasis."

With such a small population, the genetic contribution of even a small number of slaves would be significant. In any case we know that there was a steady influx of slaves over a period of time. A number of Beduin and Arabs mixed in with them as well.

"The Sanusi continued to dominate the Oasis for many years, and it was a popular crossing for their caravans, particularly those transporting slaves from Kufra. The locals helped in this endeavor, and many of the slaves remained in the Siwa, where many of their descendents remain today"

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/siwahistory.htm.

Also for what it's worth the population at Siwa today is only about 23,000! A drop in the bucket with regards to the mass of North African Berbers..the greater majority being Eurasians looking...just like their ancestors.

Did I mention that about 25% of male Siwa Berbers are R carriers of the clade R-V88, which is the result of a back migration from the Middle East.

And NO, most of the Berbers do not live in the cities. How the hell do you think they were able to preerve their language and culture. Only recent times have they been moving to the city. That's another common sense demerit on your part.

"Today they are concentrated mainly in the Rif and the Atlas mountains (and also in the Sous plain) of Morocco, and in the Kabyle and Aures mountains as well as the Mzab and other Saharan oases of Algeria. Small communities are still found on Djerba Island and in a few mainland villages in Tunisia, in the Jebel Nafusah mountain and the Ghudamis and Ghat oases of Libya, and in the Siwa oasis in Egypt.

Many Berbers are farmers who grow wheat, barley, fruits, nuts, vegetables and olives for oil in the lowlands in winter and graze flocks of sheep and goats in the mountains during the summer. Some are still nomads who migrate with their camels and herds around the desert plateaus and oases. Their fortified villages are often located high on the mountain ridges and are composed of houses, a mosque, a fortified threshing floor (kasbah) and a gathering place for the assembly of elders (Jama'ah) which controls village life.

Increasing population density and poverty have caused many Berbers to migrate to the large cities of North Africa in search of employment, there to form an urban proletariat. Others have emigrated to France, which has the largest Berber population outside of the Maghreb, and also to Spain, Belgium and other countries of western Europe."

http://www.angelfire.com/az/rescon/mgcberbr.html.

Tsk..tsk.

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melchior7
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Jari,

Liar7's end all source that claims the Siwans were originally "Red Heads" and mixed with black slaves...

but even his own page debunks him..

No intermarriage occurs between the eastern and western families, and the dark African and Berber blood are not allowed to mix in marriage either.

Unfortunately for Liar7 the Elders of the Western Family are what we call "black Africans"


I don't necessarily stand by the statement about the orginal Siwans being redheads. My main purpose was to show you that Black slaves among the Siwa is a recorded fact. As far as "red heads", I suppose one might consider that many Berbers in the nearby Libyan desert during anicent times were portrayed by the Egyptians as light skinned with red hair. The real Siwa were part of a group of Libyan Berbers you know.

"The Eastern Berbers: those tribes inhabiting the oases of Jalo and Aujila (Jalu, Awjla or Awjilah) in Cyrenaica, Eastern Libya. These tribes were part of a larger group of Berber tribes inhabiting the various oases in the Libyan desert in both countries Libya and Egypt, of which only Siwa in Egypt survives to this day. In ancient times all the oases west of the Nile were inhabited by Berbers (Imazighen), and it is these oases that gave us the name "oasis", from Latin oasis, from Greek, from Coptic ouahe, in turn from Berber-Egyptian wh''t."

http://www.temehu.com/Libyan-People.htm.

 -

In fact Ramses II was discovered to have had red hair and believed to have been of Libyan Berber descent.

"Microscopic inspection of the roots of Ramesses II's hair proved that the the king's hair was originally red, which suggests that he came from a family of redhead. This has more than just cosmetic significance: in ancient Egypt people with red hair were associated with the god Seth, the slayer of Osiris, and the name of Ramesses II's father, Seti I, means "follower of Seth."
Bob Brier, The Encyclopedia of Mummies, Checkmark Books, 1998., p.153

"After having achieved this immense work, an important scientific conclusion remains to be drawn: the anthropological study and the microscopic analysis of hair, carried out by four laboratories: Judiciary Medecine (Professor Ceccaldi), Société L'Oréal, Atomic Energy Commission, and Institut Textile de France showed that Ramses II was a 'leucoderm', that is a fair-skinned man, near to the Prehistoric and Antiquity Mediterraneans, or briefly, of the Berbers of Africa."
Christiane Desroches Noblecourt, Colette Roubet, Lionel Balout, La Momie de Ramsès II: Contribution Scientifique à l'Égyptologie, Paris, Rech. sur les Civilisations, 1985, p. 383

We just can't ignore things becuase they make it difficult for us to maintain our historical fantasies.

Oh and the people in your pictures show some admixture.

[Smile]

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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At this point you are teetering on defeat, Grasping at straws becuase of your Failed Google scholarship.

I want all of Egyptsearch and the World to know I did not start this...

But I will Finish it!!


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

"However, by 1203 we are told that the population of the Siwa Oasis had declined to as low as 40 men from seven families due to constant attacks and particularly after a rather viscous Bedouin assault. In order to found a more secure settlement, they moved from the ancient town of Aghurmi and established the present city called Shali, which simply means town. This new fortified town was built with only three gates. An Islamic historian, Maqrizi, explains that soon after there were 600 people living in the Oasis."


With such a small population, the genetic contribution of even a small number of slaves would be significant. In any case we know that there was a steady influx of slaves over a period of time. A number of Beduin and Arabs mixed in with them as well.

"The Sanusi continued to dominate the Oasis for many years, and it was a popular crossing for their caravans, particularly those transporting slaves from Kufra. The locals helped in this endeavor, and many of the slaves remained in the Siwa, where many of their descendents remain today"

[/QB][/QUOTE]

What you fail to comprehend is the dates of your claims.

The population was down to 40 men(Supposedly) in 1203

The Senusi did not get a foothold on power until the 1800's

The Senussi or Sanussi refers to a Muslim political-religious order in Libya and the Sudan region founded in Mecca in 1837 by the Grand Senussi

Fail..

Also you still have yet to establish that the Siwi Berbers mxed with slaves. None of your sources in your attempts to be a google scholar prove large scale admixture. Nor does this account for the fact that majority of Siwans are African in Appearance.

Once again..

From their own mouth..

We originate from the North African Berber tribes known as Amazigh. We are the Siwan Berbers. Because of our geographical isolation we have remained relatively unchanged.

http://www.siwaoasis.com/siwa_culture.html

Their Practices which are African in Character have not changed for years..

Siwan's are warm friendly people who will say hello and let you on your way. The children are friendly and 'What is your name" will be ringing in your ears on a return to the Villa from wondering around the back streets of the town. Walk further away from the market area and you will become the focus of interest with the level of "what is your name!" increasing with every 100 m walked. They are great people and very different from the rest of Egypt. They are more african in their ways and they do not constantly hassle you for money like most other places in Egypt. Any offer of a trip to their garden or house for tea is genuine and you will be welcome as long as you like.

http://www.somewheredifferent.com/siwa/siwa-locals.htm


More Importantly....

Their DNA links them to East Africa(Where the Berber Language originated in the first place)


The mitochondrial DNA variation of 295 Berber-speakers from Morocco (Asni, Bouhria and Figuig) and the Egyptian oasis of Siwa was evaluated by sequencing a portion of the control region (including HVS-I and part of HVS-II) and surveying haplogroup-specific coding region markers. Our findings show that the Berber mitochondrial pool is characterized by an overall high frequency of Western Eurasian haplogroups, a somehow lower frequency of sub-Saharan L lineages, and a significant (but differential) presence of North African haplogroups U6 and M1, thus occupying an intermediate position between European and sub-Saharan populations in PCA analysis. A clear and significant genetic differentiation between the Berbers from Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers was also observed. The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa. We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations.

Your attempts to play google scholar fail..

 -

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Jari,

[
Oh and the people in your pictures show some admixture.

[Smile]

So do yours...

Speaking of Slavery..

OLUMBUS, Ohio – A new study suggests that a million or more European Christians were enslaved by Muslims in North Africa between 1530 and 1780 – a far greater number than had ever been estimated before.
Robert Davis

In a new book, Robert Davis, professor of history at Ohio State University, developed a unique methodology to calculate the number of white Christians who were enslaved along Africa’s Barbary Coast, arriving at much higher slave population estimates than any previous studies had found.

Most other accounts of slavery along the Barbary coast didn’t try to estimate the number of slaves, or only looked at the number of slaves in particular cities, Davis said. Most previously estimated slave counts have thus tended to be in the thousands, or at most in the tens of thousands. Davis, by contrast, has calculated that between 1 million and 1.25 million European Christians were captured and forced to work in North Africa from the 16th to 18th centuries.

Davis’s new estimates appear in the book Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800 (Palgrave Macmillan).
“Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland.”

“Much of what has been written gives the impression that there were not many slaves and minimizes the impact that slavery had on Europe,” Davis said. “Most accounts only look at slavery in one place, or only for a short period of time. But when you take a broader, longer view, the massive scope of this slavery and its powerful impact become clear.”

Davis said it is useful to compare this Mediterranean slavery to the Atlantic slave trade that brought black Africans to the Americas. Over the course of four centuries, the Atlantic slave trade was much larger – about 10 to 12 million black Africans were brought to the Americas. But from 1500 to 1650, when trans-Atlantic slaving was still in its infancy, more white Christian slaves were probably taken to Barbary than black African slaves to the Americas, according to Davis.

“One of the things that both the public and many scholars have tended to take as given is that slavery was always racial in nature – that only blacks have been slaves. But that is not true,” Davis said. “We cannot think of slavery as something that only white people did to black people.”

During the time period Davis studied, it was religion and ethnicity, as much as race, that determined who became slaves.

“Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland,” he said.

Pirates (called corsairs) from cities along the Barbary Coast in north Africa – cities such as Tunis and Algiers – would raid ships in the Mediterranean and Atlantic, as well as seaside villages to capture men, women and children. The impact of these attacks were devastating – France, England, and Spain each lost thousands of ships, and long stretches of the Spanish and Italian coasts were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants. At its peak, the destruction and depopulation of some areas probably exceeded what European slavers would later inflict on the African interior.

Although hundreds of thousands of Christian slaves were taken from Mediterranean countries, Davis noted, the effects of Muslim slave raids was felt much further away: it appears, for example, that through most of the 17th century the English lost at least 400 sailors a year to the slavers.

Even Americans were not immune. For example, one American slave reported that 130 other American seamen had been enslaved by the Algerians in the Mediterranean and Atlantic just between 1785 and 1793.

Davis said the vast scope of slavery in North Africa has been ignored and minimized, in large part because it is on no one’s agenda to discuss what happened.

The enslavement of Europeans doesn’t fit the general theme of European world conquest and colonialism that is central to scholarship on the early modern era, he said. Many of the countries that were victims of slavery, such as France and Spain, would later conquer and colonize the areas of North Africa where their citizens were once held as slaves. Maybe because of this history, Western scholars have thought of the Europeans primarily as “evil colonialists” and not as the victims they sometimes were, Davis said.

Davis said another reason that Mediterranean slavery has been ignored or minimized has been that there have not been good estimates of the total number of people enslaved. People of the time – both Europeans and the Barbary Coast slave owners – did not keep detailed, trustworthy records of the number of slaves. In contrast, there are extensive records that document the number of Africans brought to the Americas as slaves.

So Davis developed a new methodology to come up with reasonable estimates of the number of slaves along the Barbary Coast. Davis found the best records available indicating how many slaves were at a particular location at a single time. He then estimated how many new slaves it would take to replace slaves as they died, escaped or were ransomed.

“The only way I could come up with hard numbers is to turn the whole problem upside down – figure out how many slaves they would have to capture to maintain a certain level,” he said. “It is not the best way to make population estimates, but it is the only way with the limited records available.”

Putting together such sources of attrition as deaths, escapes, ransomings, and conversions, Davis calculated that about one-fourth of slaves had to be replaced each year to keep the slave population stable, as it apparently was between 1580 and 1680. That meant about 8,500 new slaves had to be captured each year. Overall, this suggests nearly a million slaves would have been taken captive during this period. Using the same methodology, Davis has estimated as many as 475,000 additional slaves were taken in the previous and following centuries.

The result is that between 1530 and 1780 there were almost certainly 1 million and quite possibly as many as 1.25 million white, European Christians enslaved by the Muslims of the Barbary Coast.

Davis said his research into the treatment of these slaves suggests that, for most of them, their lives were every bit as difficult as that of slaves in America.

“As far as daily living conditions, the Mediterranean slaves certainly didn’t have it better,” he said.

While African slaves did grueling labor on sugar and cotton plantations in the Americas, European Christian slaves were often worked just as hard and as lethally – in quarries, in heavy construction, and above all rowing the corsair galleys themselves.

Davis said his findings suggest that this invisible slavery of European Christians deserves more attention from scholars.

“We have lost the sense of how large enslavement could loom for those who lived around the Mediterranean and the threat they were under,” he said. “Slaves were still slaves, whether they are black or white, and whether they suffered in America or North Africa


Im have 100% respect for this man Davis for speaking the Truth, facts that the historical academia tries to ignore. The History books should reflect this. It pisses me off when I read about Nubia or West African kingdoms they always talk about the main export was Slaves and Gold.

It also helps explain this..

 -

 -

 -

 -
^^^
Euro-Arab Mongrels of the result of slavery..

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melchior7
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Jari,

At this point you are teetering on defeat, Grasping at straws becuase of your Failed Google scholarship.

I want all of Egyptsearch and the World to know I did not start this...

But I will Finish it!!


There ya go. Act like you mean it..let me see your war face!

 -
LMAO!

What you fail to comprehend is the dates of your claims.

The population was down to 40 men(Supposedly) in 1203

The Senusi did not get a foothold on power until the 1800's

The Senussi or Sanussi refers to a Muslim political-religious order in Libya and the Sudan region founded in Mecca in 1837 by the Grand Senussi


The main point is that the Siwa have always been a small population, with a lot of input from invaders and slaves. Even today they only number 23,000!


Also you still have yet to establish that the Siwi Berbers mxed with slaves. None of your sources in your attempts to be a google scholar prove large scale admixture. Nor does this account for the fact that majority of Siwans are African in Appearance.


Dude you read the quotes from the previous posts about the African features steming from Black slaves. In any case, you have to contend with the fact that in ancient times, Eurasian looking Libyans have been documented, most maghrebian Berbers are Eurasian looking, the neighboring Egyptians are lighter etc And we know that Siwa was on the path of a Black slave route. So then what are the odds that the were originally Black?

 -

See the folks in the upper right hand corner?


Also look how far North it is in Egypt.
 -

Greeks used to live near those parts.


"Siwa is closely linked to Libya, and many families have relatives in villages and oases across the border. Others are descendants of African blacks brought the oasis in past centuries by caravans that traded slaves. The original language Siwan is a Berber dialect, very different from Arabic. Siwan I learn in the family as their first language and then studied Arabic at school. The Siwan language is only passed down orally, there is no written form."

http://tourismeg2011.blogspot.com/2011/05/most-famous-oasis-in-egypt.html

--------------------
In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth.

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

The main point is that the Siwa have always been a small population, with a lot of input from invaders and slaves. Even today they only number 23,000!


Once again you have yet to post any evidence of large scale slave intermixing and the dates you posted were hundreds of years apart.


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Dude you read the quotes from the previous posts about the African features steming from Black slaves.

You also read from the Siwans themselves who claim to be unchanged.

Once again..

From their own mouth..

We originate from the North African Berber tribes known as Amazigh. We are the Siwan Berbers. Because of our geographical isolation we have remained relatively unchanged.

http://www.siwaoasis.com/siwa_culture.html

Their Practices which are African in Character have not changed for years..

Siwan's are warm friendly people who will say hello and let you on your way. The children are friendly and 'What is your name" will be ringing in your ears on a return to the Villa from wondering around the back streets of the town. Walk further away from the market area and you will become the focus of interest with the level of "what is your name!" increasing with every 100 m walked. They are great people and very different from the rest of Egypt. They are more african in their ways and they do not constantly hassle you for money like most other places in Egypt. Any offer of a trip to their garden or house for tea is genuine and you will be welcome as long as you like.

Once again...

None of your sources have offered any evidence of large scale admixing with slaves.


quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
In any case, you have to contend with the fact that in ancient times, Eurasian looking Libyans have been documented, most maghrebian Berbers are Eurasian looking, the neighboring Egyptians are lighter etc And we know that Siwa was on the path of a Black slave route. So then what are the odds that the were originally Black?

First you claim that it was the "Black Slave Route" Which one?? First you claim the Tebu wier enslaved there then Sub Saharans??

Once again you have yet to establish Large Scale Admixture with Slaves...

Speaking of Slavery...

COLUMBUS, Ohio – A new study suggests that a million or more European Christians were enslaved by Muslims in North Africa between 1530 and 1780 – a far greater number than had ever been estimated before.
Robert Davis

In a new book, Robert Davis, professor of history at Ohio State University, developed a unique methodology to calculate the number of white Christians who were enslaved along Africa’s Barbary Coast, arriving at much higher slave population estimates than any previous studies had found.

Most other accounts of slavery along the Barbary coast didn’t try to estimate the number of slaves, or only looked at the number of slaves in particular cities, Davis said. Most previously estimated slave counts have thus tended to be in the thousands, or at most in the tens of thousands. Davis, by contrast, has calculated that between 1 million and 1.25 million European Christians were captured and forced to work in North Africa from the 16th to 18th centuries.

Davis’s new estimates appear in the book Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800 (Palgrave Macmillan).
“Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland.”

“Much of what has been written gives the impression that there were not many slaves and minimizes the impact that slavery had on Europe,” Davis said. “Most accounts only look at slavery in one place, or only for a short period of time. But when you take a broader, longer view, the massive scope of this slavery and its powerful impact become clear.”

Davis said it is useful to compare this Mediterranean slavery to the Atlantic slave trade that brought black Africans to the Americas. Over the course of four centuries, the Atlantic slave trade was much larger – about 10 to 12 million black Africans were brought to the Americas. But from 1500 to 1650, when trans-Atlantic slaving was still in its infancy, more white Christian slaves were probably taken to Barbary than black African slaves to the Americas, according to Davis.

“One of the things that both the public and many scholars have tended to take as given is that slavery was always racial in nature – that only blacks have been slaves. But that is not true,” Davis said. “We cannot think of slavery as something that only white people did to black people.”

During the time period Davis studied, it was religion and ethnicity, as much as race, that determined who became slaves.

“Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland,” he said.

Pirates (called corsairs) from cities along the Barbary Coast in north Africa – cities such as Tunis and Algiers – would raid ships in the Mediterranean and Atlantic, as well as seaside villages to capture men, women and children. The impact of these attacks were devastating – France, England, and Spain each lost thousands of ships, and long stretches of the Spanish and Italian coasts were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants. At its peak, the destruction and depopulation of some areas probably exceeded what European slavers would later inflict on the African interior.

Although hundreds of thousands of Christian slaves were taken from Mediterranean countries, Davis noted, the effects of Muslim slave raids was felt much further away: it appears, for example, that through most of the 17th century the English lost at least 400 sailors a year to the slavers.

Even Americans were not immune. For example, one American slave reported that 130 other American seamen had been enslaved by the Algerians in the Mediterranean and Atlantic just between 1785 and 1793.

Davis said the vast scope of slavery in North Africa has been ignored and minimized, in large part because it is on no one’s agenda to discuss what happened.

The enslavement of Europeans doesn’t fit the general theme of European world conquest and colonialism that is central to scholarship on the early modern era, he said. Many of the countries that were victims of slavery, such as France and Spain, would later conquer and colonize the areas of North Africa where their citizens were once held as slaves. Maybe because of this history, Western scholars have thought of the Europeans primarily as “evil colonialists” and not as the victims they sometimes were, Davis said.

Davis said another reason that Mediterranean slavery has been ignored or minimized has been that there have not been good estimates of the total number of people enslaved. People of the time – both Europeans and the Barbary Coast slave owners – did not keep detailed, trustworthy records of the number of slaves. In contrast, there are extensive records that document the number of Africans brought to the Americas as slaves.

So Davis developed a new methodology to come up with reasonable estimates of the number of slaves along the Barbary Coast. Davis found the best records available indicating how many slaves were at a particular location at a single time. He then estimated how many new slaves it would take to replace slaves as they died, escaped or were ransomed.

“The only way I could come up with hard numbers is to turn the whole problem upside down – figure out how many slaves they would have to capture to maintain a certain level,” he said. “It is not the best way to make population estimates, but it is the only way with the limited records available.”

Putting together such sources of attrition as deaths, escapes, ransomings, and conversions, Davis calculated that about one-fourth of slaves had to be replaced each year to keep the slave population stable, as it apparently was between 1580 and 1680. That meant about 8,500 new slaves had to be captured each year. Overall, this suggests nearly a million slaves would have been taken captive during this period. Using the same methodology, Davis has estimated as many as 475,000 additional slaves were taken in the previous and following centuries.

The result is that between 1530 and 1780 there were almost certainly 1 million and quite possibly as many as 1.25 million white, European Christians enslaved by the Muslims of the Barbary Coast.

Davis said his research into the treatment of these slaves suggests that, for most of them, their lives were every bit as difficult as that of slaves in America.

“As far as daily living conditions, the Mediterranean slaves certainly didn’t have it better,” he said.

While African slaves did grueling labor on sugar and cotton plantations in the Americas, European Christian slaves were often worked just as hard and as lethally – in quarries, in heavy construction, and above all rowing the corsair galleys themselves.

Davis said his findings suggest that this invisible slavery of European Christians deserves more attention from scholars.

“We have lost the sense of how large enslavement could loom for those who lived around the Mediterranean and the threat they were under,” he said. “Slaves were still slaves, whether they are black or white, and whether they suffered in America or North Africa


Im have 100% respect for this man Davis for speaking the Truth, facts that the historical academia tries to ignore. The History books should reflect this. It pisses me off when I read about Nubia or West African kingdoms they always talk about the main export was Slaves and Gold.

It also helps explain this..

 -

 -

 -

 -
^^^
Euro-Arab Mongrels of the result of slavery..

Posts: 8805 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
melchior7
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Jari,

Davis said it is useful to compare this Mediterranean slavery to the Atlantic slave trade that brought black Africans to the Americas. Over the course of four centuries, the Atlantic slave trade was much larger – about 10 to 12 million black Africans were brought to the Americas. But from 1500 to 1650, when trans-Atlantic slaving was still in its infancy, more white Christian slaves were probably taken to Barbary than black African slaves to the Americas, according to Davis.

Dude, I have no dispute with that. I even posted on another thread about how Vikings would help in raiding villages in the Birish Isles and slavic countries to acuire slaves to sell to the Arabs. Folks in Venice also sold other Europeans to the Moors.

"The Venetians supplied the markets of the Saracens with slaves purchased from the Slavonian tribes which bordered on the Adriatic. Besides, as personal slavery and the traffic in slaves continued in all Mohammedan countries, Christian captives taken by Musselmans were sold in the markets of Asia and Northern Africa, and have continued to be sold till within our own times, when Christian slavery has been abolished in Barbary, Egypt, and the Ottoman empire, by the interference of the Christian powers, the emancipation of Greece, and the conquest of Algiers by the French."
http://www.magnumarchive.com/c/cyclopedia-of-knowledge-volume-4/Slavery-Slave.html

That's something you will rarely hear baout.

But I ain't trippin on some White vs. Black kick. I jsut want to weigh facts and get to truth. Who were the original Berbers in North Africa. I am saying they were mostly Eurasian.

"Additionally, recent studies have discovered a close mitochondrial link between Berbers and the Saami of Scandinavia which confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum and reveals a direct maternal link between those European hunter-gatherer populations and the Berbers. With regard to Mozabite Berbers, one-third of Mozabite Berber mtDNAs have a Near Eastern ancestry, probably having arrived in North Africa ∼50,000 years ago, and one-eighth have an origin in sub-Saharan Africa. Europe appears to be the source of many of the remaining sequences, with the rest having arisen either in Europe or in the Near East."
http://www.busuu.com/enc/topic/9140449.

--------------------
In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth.

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How the Lybians were Depicted by themselves and Egyptians[/b]

Lybians of the Egyptian/Lybian Oasis..

Dakhla:

The master of the house ..

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Above the front door, travel by boat.
Pilgrimage to Abydos

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26th Lybian Dynasty Tomb..

The founder of the dynasty was Psammetichus I, originally a member of the Libyan royal house in Saïs (which is why the period is also called the Saite Period). Psammetichus originally ruled in Egypt with the help of Assyria and ruled over Lower Egypt with other local princes (Herodotus speaks of twelve kings). With the help of Greek and Carian mercenaries he eventually succeeded in ruling alone.

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quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:


See the folks in the upper right hand corner?



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How the Lybians were Depicted by themselves and Egyptians[/b]

21st "Meshwesh" Lybian Dynasty..
Smendes

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Sheshonq II

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Pseusennes I
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http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Golden_Mask_of_Psusennes_I.jpg

Pinudjem I

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The mummy Nesikhonsu A is a supreme example of 21st Dynasty (c. 1070-945 B.C.) embalming. Her body was molded to retain a lifelike form, stones were inlaid under her eyelids, and flowers were wrapped around her toes. Like most ancient Egyptians, this wife of a pharaoh died young. But her body was prepared for a glorious afterlife.

Nesitanebetashrua A -21st dynasty queen

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quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:


See the folks in the upper right hand corner?



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So now after citing a Dance website you jump to a Tourism website.

Does your site mention the "30 Families" of Arab Asiatics who invaded Siwa?? Does your Tourism site mention that Siwi Berbers are relatively unmixed, isolated, and did not mix much with outsiders..??

Once again from the Siwi not a Tourism site or a Dance Site...

We originate from the North African Berber tribes known as Amazigh. We are the Siwan Berbers. Because of our geographical isolation we have remained relatively unchanged.

http://www.siwaoasis.com/siwa_culture.html

Their Practices which are African in Character have not changed for years..

Siwan's are warm friendly people who will say hello and let you on your way. The children are friendly and 'What is your name" will be ringing in your ears on a return to the Villa from wondering around the back streets of the town. Walk further away from the market area and you will become the focus of interest with the level of "what is your name!" increasing with every 100 m walked. They are great people and very different from the rest of Egypt. They are more african in their ways and they do not constantly hassle you for money like most other places in Egypt. Any offer of a trip to their garden or house for tea is genuine and you will be welcome as long as you like.

http://www.somewheredifferent.com/siwa/siwa-locals.htm


More Importantly....

Their DNA links them to East Africa(Where the Berber Language originated in the first place)


The mitochondrial DNA variation of 295 Berber-speakers from Morocco (Asni, Bouhria and Figuig) and the Egyptian oasis of Siwa was evaluated by sequencing a portion of the control region (including HVS-I and part of HVS-II) and surveying haplogroup-specific coding region markers. Our findings show that the Berber mitochondrial pool is characterized by an overall high frequency of Western Eurasian haplogroups, a somehow lower frequency of sub-Saharan L lineages, and a significant (but differential) presence of North African haplogroups U6 and M1, thus occupying an intermediate position between European and sub-Saharan populations in PCA analysis. A clear and significant genetic differentiation between the Berbers from Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers was also observed. The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa. We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations.


quote:
Originally posted by Liar7:



"Siwa is closely linked to Libya, and many families have relatives in villages and oases across the border. Others are descendants of African blacks brought the oasis in past centuries by caravans that traded slaves. The original language Siwan is a Berber dialect, very different from Arabic. Siwan I learn in the family as their first language and then studied Arabic at school. The Siwan language is only passed down orally, there is no written form."

http://tourismeg2011.blogspot.com/2011/05/most-famous-oasis-in-egypt.html


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melchior7
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So now after citing a Dance website you jump to a Tourism website.

Does your site mention the "30 Families" of Arab Asiatics who invaded Siwa?? Does your Tourism site mention that Siwi Berbers are relatively unmixed, isolated, and did not mix much with outsiders..??

Once again from the Siwi not a Tourism site or a Dance Site...

We originate from the North African Berber tribes known as Amazigh. We are the Siwan Berbers. Because of our geographical isolation we have remained relatively unchanged.

http://www.siwaoasis.com/siwa_culture.html

Their Practices which are African in Character have not changed for years..

Siwan's are warm friendly people who will say hello and let you on your way. The children are friendly and 'What is your name" will be ringing in your ears on a return to the Villa from wondering around the back streets of the town. Walk further away from the market area and you will become the focus of interest with the level of "what is your name!" increasing with every 100 m walked. They are great people and very different from the rest of Egypt. They are more african in their ways and they do not constantly hassle you for money like most other places in Egypt. Any offer of a trip to their garden or house for tea is genuine and you will be welcome as long as you like.

]http://www.somewheredifferent.com/siwa/siwa-locals.htm
[/b]


So basically you are denying that there was any mixing with slaves, even though we know that they live in the middle of a major slave caravan route?

Some your egyptian depictions look like regular Egyptians. There were not wearing Libyan dress etc. Many of the mummies had straight or wavy hair.

What about the Egyptian depictions of light skinned Libyans? What about Ramses II? What about the fact that Ptolemy mentions numbers of "Leuco-Ethiopians in Libya? I am not even going to post images from Greco Roman times.

But I think you might want to tak a look at their Y dna compared to other Berbers.


 -

E-m81 which is the Berber marker is only at 1.1 percent!!!! Compare that to the rest of the Berber groups. Look at their frequncies of R-V88. That means these folks cluster more with Central Africans than with Berbers. And B??? That's like Pygmy!


Also despite whatever anyone claims. The Siwa were not isolated.

The place was the site of a famous oracle, often visited by the Greeks.


"Located 4 km from Siwa is the temple Aghurmi. This temple probably housed the famous Greek oracle of Jupiter Amun (Darius) and dates to the 26th Dynasty, though there was possibly an earlier temple located on this spot. The temple has a forecourt, a vestibule and a sanctuary.



The base of the western column of the Doric-style facade, erected by the Greeks, remains. It's remarkable to note the decorations which show King Ahmose making offerings to the gods, and on the reverse side the Siwan governor doing the same. This suggests that the Siwa was far enough removed from the Egyptian Empire for her leaders to rule almost as king.



Yet this must have been a well known religious center, for when Alexander the Great came to Egypt for the first time, he headed directly to Siwa to consult the oracle in about 331. Thus, the religious significance of this site must have been known prior to Alexander's occupation and the beginnings of the Greek period of Egypt's history. In fact, it was this temple that the Persian King, Cambyses sent an army of 50,000 men to destroy in about 524 BC."


http://www.touregypt.net/aghurmi.htm

BUSTED! [Razz]

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So basically you are denying that there was any mixing with slaves, even though we know that they live in the middle of a major slave caravan route?

Like how you are denying European slaves mixed with white Berbers??...

Mixing occured but no evidence has been posted of Large Scale Admixture..I suppose the blackest Siwi are Mixed but the majority of the population is Reddish Brown to wheat colored with African features. Matching Egyptian depictions of various Lybians.

One of your own sites claims that the Berbers don't mix with the slaves.

Speaking of Slave Admixture over a Million White Europeans were enslaved in North Africa(Should I continue to Post the info or do you want to continue with slavery??)


Some your egyptian depictions look like regular Egyptians. There were not wearing Libyan dress etc.

These people were Egyptianized Lybian Pharoahs, like the Nubians who did the same thing.

Let me guess the Meshwesh Lybians who built their Tombs in the Oaisis were Regualr Egyptians ...

Meshwesh: a powerful group of allied Berber tribes of eastern Libya, who were able to take control of the Egyptian throne (Shoshenq, Sheshenq). The name Meshwesh is but one form of the generic Berber appellative MZGH, as seen in such classical forms as MaXY-es and MaZY-es. In ca. 945 BC the the Libyan Berber king Shishenq, Sheshenq or Shoshenq, from the Meshwash tribe, succeeded in establishing the 22nd Dynasty in Egypt.

http://www.temehu.com/Libyan-People.htm


Many of the mummies had straight or wavy hair.

And...?? The signifigance please??


What about the Egyptian depictions of light skinned Libyans?

A Minority who were probably Greek/Med. Settlers.


What about Ramses II?

What about him??


What about the fact that Ptolemy mentions numbers of "Leuco-Ethiopians in Libya?


PHny, Mela and Ptolemy all refer to the Leucaethiopes, but they give no
description of the people thus designated.
Pliny in his Lib. v. cap. 8, Hist. Natur.
writes : Interiori autem ambitu Africae ad meridiem versus superque Gaetulos, inter-
venientibus desertis, primi omnium Libyaegyptii, deinde Leucaethiopes habitant.

Pomponius Mela, Be situ orbis, Lib. i. cap. 4, is somewhat more explicit : At
super ea quae Libyco mari abluuntur, Libyes Aegypti sunt, et Leucoaethiopes, et natio
frequens multiplexque Gaetuli. For Mela the Leucaethiopes appear to be between
the Troglodytes and the Nile, scarcely in Western Africa.


Agathemenos retires again behind those convenient intervening deserts, and
merely says that west of Egypt are situated among other nations the Aeu/cat^toTj-es.
De geographia, Lib. ii. cap. 5
[/QUOTE]

Funny part is they were called Leuko-Ethiopians not "Lybians" so they were associated with Blacks in some way. I even read they could have been an Albino colony of black Ethiopies, but who knows, as no description exists on the Leuko Ethiopians. Further damaging is if The Lueko Ethiopians were Blond and Blue Eyed resembling Southern Europeans how come the Greeks and Romans did not connect them with Germanics, themselves or any European Group but with Ethiopians..

Fail...


I am not even going to post images from Greco Roman times.

I wont Either, as If no black images exist and as If they were not called Maure AKA Black by the same people they are supposed to resemble in skin color..LMAO.


But I think you might want to tak a look at their Y dna compared to other Berbers.

I already posted they are genetically East African.

E-m81 which is the Berber marker is only at 1.1 percent!!!! Compare that to the rest of the Berber groups. Look at their frequncies of R-V88. That means these folks cluster more with Central Africans than with Berbers. Other Berbers have a high influence of European ancestry via Slavery and Invasion...makes sense the best preserved Berbers are African Genetically. Esp considering the Siwi are genetically East African and Nile Valley..


Also despite whatever anyone claimes. The Siwa were not isolated.

The place was the site of a famous oracle, often visited by the Greeks.


"Located 4 km from Siwa is the temple Aghurmi. This temple probably housed the famous Greek oracle of Jupiter Amun (Darius) and dates to the 26th Dynasty, though there was possibly an earlier temple located on this spot. The temple has a forecourt, a vestibule and a sanctuary.



The base of the western column of the Doric-style facade, erected by the Greeks, remains. It's remarkable to note the decorations which show King Ahmose making offerings to the gods, and on the reverse side the Siwan governor doing the same. This suggests that the Siwa was far enough removed from the Egyptian Empire for her leaders to rule almost as king.



Yet this must have been a well known religious center, for when Alexander the Great came to Egypt for the first time, he headed directly to Siwa to consult the oracle in about 331. Thus, the religious significance of this site must have been known prior to Alexander's occupation and the beginnings of the Greek period of Egypt's history. In fact, it was this temple that the Persian King, Cambyses sent an army of 50,000 men to destroy in about 524 BC."


How does this disprove that the Siwi were Isolated until recent times?? LMAO another fail...

As I said earlier you have yet to post or provide evidence of large scale Admixture with slaves. You google scholarship has failed.

You lost on the Leukoethiopians..

You Lost on the Egyptian Depiction of Lybians

You lost on the Siwi, Temgroute, Taureg, Tissint Berbers being slave descendants...

You lost on the White slave Influence on North Africa..

You lost on the Siwi...

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Bitch!!

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Adira and Marra
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 -
Congrats. I hope it works.

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melchior7
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Mixing occured but no evidence has been posted of Large Scale Admixture..

Really? Where is the Berber Y Dna. Whats with the Central African markers?? Lol.

One of your own sites claims that the Berbers don't mix with the slaves.

Apparently the originals must have died out.

And Greek setlers in the time of Seti?? Oh ok. [Roll Eyes]

The signifigance please..of wavy straight hair??

EURASIAN! Also look at their noses.

I even read they could have been an Albino colony of black Ethiopies
Lol.

Further damaging is if The Lueko Ethiopians were Blond and Blue Eyed resembling Southern Europeans how come the Greeks and Romans did not connect them with Germanics, themselves or any European Group but with Ethiopians.

Who said they were all Blond with blue eyes? I thought we said some were red haired. They obviously had different culture..languages and lived in Africa etc

I already posted they are genetically East African... Other Berbers have a high influence of European ancestry via Slavery and Invasion...makes sense the best preserved Berbers are African Genetically. Esp considering the Siwi are genetically East African and Nile Valley..

Nah dude, were talking Y dna. That nonsense you posted earlier refered to their mtDNA. Most Berbers in the Mahgreb show dominant frequencies of E-m81 which is their signature EAST AFRICAN marker, the other one is E-m78. Both of these are scarce in the Siwa Berbers. In fact their Y Dna is more Central African than East African. That means there is little relation. U6 is also absent in the mtDNA. Face it dude these ancestors of these people are not the ancestors of the Berbers. Don't be too blind to see. LOL!

How does this disporve that the Siwi were Isolated until recent times??

How isolated was it if Greeks built temples there? Did I mention it was a Roman province? Then you had Arabs and Beduins raiding the place, before it became a major stop for slave caravans. How isolated is that, really?

As I said earlier you have yet to post or provide evidence of large scale Admixture with slaves. You google scholarship has failed.

Yeah ok. [Roll Eyes] If you really understood anything about all of this you would have realized that the Y dna proves they ain't related to other Berbers but from African slaves brought in from deep within Africa.

You lost on the Leukoethiopians..

You Lost on the Egyptian Depiction of Lybians

You lost on the Siwi, Temgroute, Taureg, Tissint Berbers being slave descendants...

You lost on the White slave Influence on North Africa..


Oh sure.. [Roll Eyes]


Your argument for the Siwa is a lost cause.
Go get the Explorer or whoever's butt you habitually kiss on this forum to help you. Cuz as it is YOU LOSE! [Eek!]

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by melchior7:
[QB] Mixing occured but no evidence has been posted of Large Scale Admixture..

Really? Where is the Berber Y Dna. Whats with the Central African markers?? Lol.

The Siwi are Genetically East African and Nile Valley Africans..

The mitochondrial DNA variation of 295 Berber-speakers from Morocco (Asni, Bouhria and Figuig) and the Egyptian oasis of Siwa was evaluated by sequencing a portion of the control region (including HVS-I and part of HVS-II) and surveying haplogroup-specific coding region markers. Our findings show that the Berber mitochondrial pool is characterized by an overall high frequency of Western Eurasian haplogroups, a somehow lower frequency of sub-Saharan L lineages, and a significant (but differential) presence of North African haplogroups U6 and M1, thus occupying an intermediate position between European and sub-Saharan populations in PCA analysis. A clear and significant genetic differentiation between the Berbers from Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers was also observed. The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa. We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations.

Further Damaging is E-m81 is Eastern African derived anyway..

"Several observations point to eastern Africa as the homeland for haplogroup E3b—that is, it had (1) the highest number of different E3b clades (table 1), (2) a high frequency of this haplogroup and a high microsatellite diversity, and, finally, (3) the exclusive presence of the undifferentiated E3b* paragroup."

Cruciani et al. (2004)

The Highest Genes on that Chart in the Siwi are R1b a clad you claim is Eurasian in origin yet in the very same breath you claim that the Siwi are majority "Central African" derived.

You are all over the place google Scholar...

First the Siwi are Genetically Eurasian with R1b Dominating now they are Central African

Next you claim that the Siwi are mixed with Tebu(Nilo Saharan Lybians)

Then Sudanses Nilo Sharans, now "Central Afrians"...Pray tell when did Central Africans become a large player in the North African slave trade.


Apparently the originals must have died out. Who are the originals?? What are you talking about, where is your evidence for this outlandish claim?? LMAO, Now let me guess The Siwi wen from being Admixed to now being Dead replaced by black slaves..LOL

Then in another post the Siwi did not mix with their slaves..??

You are all over the place...

And Greek setlers in the time of Seti?? Oh ok.

LOL, so now Greeks are Berbers??


EURASIAN. Also look at their noses.

African have Wavy and Straight hair with no "Eurasian Admixture"...

The diversity of Africans has been proven 1 million times..

Next.

Their noses?? So now the only blacks are Blubbery Lipped, and nappy haired, but Im sure you will make an acception for the Big Lipped and Nosed Olmec, Chinese, and other Statues of Non Africans, Im sure your bitch ass will make an acception then.


How isolated was it if Greeks built temples there? Did I mention it was a Roman province? Then you had Arabs and Beduins raiding the place, before it became a major stop for slave caravans. How isolated is that, really? So now a Greek Temple and a Roman Province proves Siwi was not isolated...LMAO, Wait did your bitch ass not claim that the Greeks and Romans did not admix or interact with the White Berbers, but you will make an acception for the Siwi huh...

True Colors are showing..

Yeah ok. If you really understood anything about all of this you would have realized that the Y dna proves they ain't related to other Berbers but from African slaves brought in from deep within Africa.

The Dominant Genes are East African derived and does not prove admiture with slaves...


Your argument for the Siwa is a lost cause.
Go get the Explorer or whoever's butt you habitually kiss on this forum to help you. Cuz as it is YOU LOSE!


More Wishful thining, your google Scholar smokes and mirriors has failed. You lost a long time ago..

Once again..


[i]The mitochondrial DNA variation of 295 Berber-speakers from Morocco (Asni, Bouhria and Figuig) and the Egyptian oasis of Siwa was evaluated by sequencing a portion of the control region (including HVS-I and part of HVS-II) and surveying haplogroup-specific coding region markers. Our findings show that the Berber mitochondrial pool is characterized by an overall high frequency of Western Eurasian haplogroups, a somehow lower frequency of sub-Saharan L lineages, and a significant (but differential) presence of North African haplogroups U6 and M1, thus occupying an intermediate position between European and sub-Saharan populations in PCA analysis. A clear and significant genetic differentiation between the Berbers from Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers was also observed. The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa. We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations.

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melchior7
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Further Damaging is E-m81 is Eastern African derived anyway.

The main reason people argue for East African origins are because of the predominance in Berbers of E markers. In the Siwa E markers are scarce.

The Highest Genes on that Chart in the Siwi are R1b a clad you claim is Eurasian in origin yet in the very same breath you claim that the Siwi are majority "Central African" derived.

Yes the R-V88 is part of a back migration into Africa. They reached all the way to cameroon which is where we find the higherst frequncies at 90% and among certian Chadic speakers. B is most common among Pygmies, also from Central Africa

You are all over the place google Scholar...

First the Siwi are Genetically Eurasian with R1b Dominating now they are Central African


I am sorry that you get confused so easily. They are central African markers orginally of Eurasian origin.


Next you claim that the Siwi are mixed with Tebu(Nilo Saharan Lybians)

Then Sudanses Nilo Sharans, now "Central Afrians"...Pray tell when did Central Africans become a large player in the North African slave trade.


I had thought they were mixed with Tebu although I don't know about the Tebu genetic markers. What's clear is that Arabs brought slaves from all over Africa.

"Black Africans were transported to the Islamic empire across the Sahara to Morocco and Tunisia from West Africa, from Chad to Libya, along the Nile from East Africa, and up the coast of East Africa to the Persian Gulf. This trade had been well entrenched for over 600 years before Europeans arrived, and had driven the rapid expansion of Islam across North Africa."

http://africanhistory.about.com/od/slavery/a/IslamRoleSlavery01.htm.
Chad or further south is a likely candidate.


Now let me guess The Siwi wen from being Admixed to now being Dead replaced by black slaves..LOL

Bravo!


LOL, so now Greeks are Berbers??
No, that's your suggestion. Read what you wrote.

African have Wavy and Straight hair with no "Eurasian Admixture"...

Yeah ok. Someone must have forgot to tell these Siwa bothas to straighten they naps out. [Big Grin]

 -

The diversity of Africans has been proven 1 million times..

Yeah and just about all these diverse Africans are in North Africa or in the Horn of Africa among Afro Asiatic speakers..Go figure. [Eek!]

Next.

Their noses?? So now the only blacks are Blubbery Lipped, and nappy haired, but Im sure you will make an acception for the Big Lipped and Nosed Olmec, Chinese, and other Statues of Non Africans, Im sure your bitch ass will make an acception then.

So you claiming the Olmecs now too?? Lol!


Wait did your bitch ass not claim that the Greeks and Romans did not admix or interact with the White Berbers, but you will make an acception for the Siwi huh.

Ooh look at that ghetto style ad hominem..a true syptom of the butt hurt when they know they have lost. Lol!

Anyway, we have historical accounts of Greeks in Siwa, don't we?


The Dominant Genes are East African derived and does not prove admiture with slaves.

The maternal dna is East African but even that is of a different kind than most Berbers. Give it up already.


More Wishful thining, your google Scholar smokes and mirriors has failed. You lost a long time ago..

Your Siwa "Berbers" Are not related to other Berbers. Case closed!

Therefore you can't use them to argue that the orginal Berbers were Black.

I knew that the Y DNA was different from the begining and led you on just for hell of it. No, you certaintly aren't the Exlporer but you sure are worth a few good laffs!
[Big Grin]

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