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» EgyptSearch Forums » Ancient Egypt » Caucasian Berber tribes? Still waiting for any one before the 16th century (Page 6)

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Author Topic: Caucasian Berber tribes? Still waiting for any one before the 16th century
-Just Call Me Jari-
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The main reason people argue for East African origins are because of the predominance in Berbers of E markers. In the Siwa E markers are scarce.


Yes the R-V88 is part of a back migration into Africa. They reached all the way to cameroon which is where we find the higherst frequncies at 90% and among certian Chadic speakers. B is most common among Pygmies, also from Central Africa


The B hg markers are native, due to Isolation represent the founding population of Siwa. This has nothing to do with slave trade as been demonastated 100 times that the Siwi Berbers did not mix with slaves.


I am sorry that you get confused so easily. They are central African markers orginally of Eurasian origin.

So now their R1b is Chadic in origin..LMFA, Firs Tibu, Sudansese, Chadic, Central African..whats next.

I had thought they were mixed with Tebu although I don't know about the Tebu or ultimate origins.

The Only Large scale slave trade in the area was of the Tibu, now suddenly you abandon your Tibu theory..

What's clear is that Arabs brought slaves from all over Africa.

Black Africans were transported to the Islamic empire across the Sahara to Morocco and Tunisia from West Africa, from Chad to Libya, along the Nile from East Africa, and up the coast of East Africa to the Persian Gulf. This trade had been well entrenched for over 600 years before Europeans arrived, and had driven the rapid expansion of Islam across North Africa.

http://africanhistory.about.com/od/slavery/a/IslamRoleSlavery01.htm.
Chad is a likely candidate.


All Tests done on the Siwa indicate they are Nilotic and East African in origin meaning their B hg is native not derived from slavery. You are just scrambling like a rat to validate yourself because you lost this debate.

E1b1a, B2a1a are Nilotic and East African derived together with the Isolation and tendency not to intermarry it makes sense.

If the Siwi were so Chadian derived both with B and the R1 hg they would resemble Chadians, yet every image of a Siwi would stick out in Chad.

Your Boat is sinking quick..

Bravo!

LMAO

These are Chadian Slaves who replaced the Siwi Berbers...

(Im sure you will try your hardest to back peddle from this..LOL)

 -

 -

Give it up..

No, that's you're suggestion. Read what you wrote.

You are losing your mind, I said Siwa was Isolated you claim Greeks and Romans built temples..

You Serious..??

Is this how you debate??

You are becoming unhinged...

Yeah ok. Someone must have forgot to tell these Siwa bothas to straighten they naps out.

None of the men depicted are Siwi, more proof of your fail attempt to google Scholar.....(Dumbass)..LOL


BTW, lets see what others in that thread think about the Siwi..

by a poster Asauro
what I am really trying to say is that , A and B hgs ARE north African lineages ...

the Siwan B hg is native , it doesn't need to be 'Berberized' .....it is perhaps, because of the oasis isolation, it was not absorbed by the parallel clades of E1b1b in the region (M-78 / M-81 ) ..
on the other hand, R-V88 and J1 are the adapters of the Berber language , along with other non-native haplogroups in the region...

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...02929711001649

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05...years-ago.html

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05...f-mankind.html
Last edited by asarou; 08-05-2011 at 06:58 AM.
asarou is offline Reply With Quote


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recently Berberized is a non starter , if we look at the big picture, they will rather have more chance being Arabized instead , in fact, it was their isolation that made the preservation of their ancestral tongue possible..

M-78 , A , B and other E clades are Berber haplogroups as well...

and from the last Cruciani paper , it seems that the Siwans are members of 'the major league'


http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?t=12599&page=2

Unfortuneatly for you they seem to agree with me that the B and R1 Hgs represent the Founding Native population of Siwi..


Yeah and just about all these diverse Africans are in North Africa or in the Horn of Africa among Afro Asiatic speakers..Go figure.

African Diversity is noted by most mainstream Geneticists and scinetists, the fact you fail to know or realize this only further proves your ignorance..


So you claiming the Olmecs now too?? Lol!

Who the F-k said Im claiming Olmecs, Learn to Comprehend. Using your damn specifics(Nose Shape, Hair, etc) the Olmecs and other non Africans can be black, which is why Afrocentrics claim them because like you they rely on Eyeball anthropology.


Yeah ok. If you really understood anything about all of this you would have realized that the Y dna proves they ain't related to other Berbers but from African slaves brought in from deep within Africa

You realize you are the only motherf-ker that claims this all tests show the Siwi to be East African and Nilotic in origin. Dude you f-ing lose. Get over it...


The mitochondrial DNA variation of 295 Berber-speakers from Morocco (Asni, Bouhria and Figuig) and the Egyptian oasis of Siwa was evaluated by sequencing a portion of the control region (including HVS-I and part of HVS-II) and surveying haplogroup-specific coding region markers. Our findings show that the Berber mitochondrial pool is characterized by an overall high frequency of Western Eurasian haplogroups, a somehow lower frequency of sub-Saharan L lineages, and a significant (but differential) presence of North African haplogroups U6 and M1, thus occupying an intermediate position between European and sub-Saharan populations in PCA analysis. A clear and significant genetic differentiation between the Berbers from Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers was also observed. The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa. We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations.

 -

The Nail in your coffin is that the Siwi probably represent the best of what the original Berbers looked like with some influence from Nilo-Saharan speakers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TX6o7R8LSg

"Put the Mouse down and walk away, You still might have a little dignity"

LMAO..

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quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Siwa Berbers

From their own mouth..

We originate from the North African Berber tribes known as Amazigh. We are the Siwan Berbers. Because of our geographical isolation we have remained relatively unchanged.

http://www.siwaoasis.com/siwa_culture.html

Their Practices which are African in Character have not changed for years..

Siwan's are warm friendly people who will say hello and let you on your way. The children are friendly and 'What is your name" will be ringing in your ears on a return to the Villa from wondering around the back streets of the town. Walk further away from the market area and you will become the focus of interest with the level of "what is your name!" increasing with every 100 m walked. They are great people and very different from the rest of Egypt. They are more african in their ways and they do not constantly hassle you for money like most other places in Egypt. Any offer of a trip to their garden or house for tea is genuine and you will be welcome as long as you like.

http://www.somewheredifferent.com/siwa/siwa-locals.htm


More Importantly....

Their DNA links them to East Africa(Where the Berber Language originated in the first place)


The mitochondrial DNA variation of 295 Berber-speakers from Morocco (Asni, Bouhria and Figuig) and the Egyptian oasis of Siwa was evaluated by sequencing a portion of the control region (including HVS-I and part of HVS-II) and surveying haplogroup-specific coding region markers. Our findings show that the Berber mitochondrial pool is characterized by an overall high frequency of Western Eurasian haplogroups, a somehow lower frequency of sub-Saharan L lineages, and a significant (but differential) presence of North African haplogroups U6 and M1, thus occupying an intermediate position between European and sub-Saharan populations in PCA analysis. A clear and significant genetic differentiation between the Berbers from Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers was also observed. The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa. We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations.

Large groups of Siwa Berbers..

 -


 -
 -

 -

 -

Yes, this is what Siwas in general look like. And we know the Berber langage is East African in origin. They will always use the excuse "ohw" they were just slaves".

And at the same time they will leave out the invasions by the Romans, Greeks, Persians Turks / Ottomans and their Mamluk's, Arabs and their Saqaliba's.

It's like spinning in circles with these folks.

The extends of lies is awesome covering up one lie with another.

Like the Saami relation I spoke of earlier. [Smile]

They claimed they we related to Berbers, then I showed the enslavement of the Saami's by the Vikings and enslavement of North Africans taken to North Europe. And all of a sudden the Saami's weren't U6 but U5 and so on? [Wink]

 -

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Folks can only spin in circles for so long with out vomiting from throwing off equilibrium. The Garrig Bitch is all over the place, in a frenzy to find an African people to make the Siwi as slaves, yet I have not changed my position which is supported by the very people who studied the Siwa and anyone familiar with the Siwa, even non Afrocentrics from Antrocivs and Antroscape know this.

Liar7 is a Google Scholar which is why he constantlty changes his argument. LMAO, and he thinks he can match wits with folks like Expolorer and Sundjaita..LOL.

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melchior7
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The B hg markers are native, due to Isolation represent the founding population of Siwa.

Nope. It is not.

"B2a1a originated in Central/Western Africa, while E1b1b1e is common in Eastern
Africa. Thus, it poses a question about the Sahara desert’s role in population movements
and exchanges."

And it's highest frequencies are in still central Africa. Observe.

"Haplogroup B2a1a (M109, M152, P32, P50) is the most commonly observed subclade of haplogroup B.

In Central Africa, haplogroup B2a1a Y-DNA has been found in 23% (7/31) of Ngumba males from southern Cameroon,[2] 18% (7/39) of Fali males from northern Cameroon,[6] 5% (1/21)[6] to 31% (4/13)[2] of Uldeme males from northern Cameroon, 10% (3/29) of Ewondo males from southern Cameroon,[6] 7% (1/15) of a mixed sample of speakers of various Chadic languages from northern Cameroon,[6] 6% (1/18) of a mixed sample of speakers of various Adamawa languages from northern Cameroon,[6] 6% (2/33) of Bakola males from southern Cameroon,[2] 4% (1/28) of Mandara males from northern Cameroon,[2] and 3% (1/31)[2] to 5% (1/20)[6] of Biaka males from Central African Republic.

In East Africa, haplogroup B2a1a Y-DNA has been found in 11% (1/9) of a small sample of Iraqw males from Tanzania,[2] 11% (1/9) of a small sample of Luo males from Kenya,[2] 8% (2/26) of Massai males from Kenya,[2] and 4.5% (4/88) of a sample of Ethiopians.[7]

In Southern Africa, haplogroup B2a1a Y-DNA has been found in 18% (5/28) of Sotho–Tswana males from South Africa,[2] 14% (4/29) of Zulu males from South Africa,[2] 13% (7/53) of an ethnically mixed sample of non-Khoisan Southern Africans,[7] 10% (5/49) of Shona males from Zimbabwe,[2] and 5% (4/80) of Xhosa males from South Africa.[2]

In North Africa, haplogroup B2a1a Y-DNA has been found in 12.5% (5/40) of Sudanese[7] and 2% (2/92) of Egyptians.[2]"

Also R-V88 has it's highest concentration in Central Africa.

This has nothing to do with slave trade as been demonastated 100 times that the Siwi Berbers did not mix with slaves.

Yeah? Where did you demonstrate that? Lol

Many believe that the Current Siwa genetics are not that of the orignal Berbers

"However we know that throughout history the oasis was called at by successive
human groups, like pilgrims travelling to Mecca, Mediterranean tradesmen, or Sahelian
slave merchants.
Siwa may even have been repopulated at a certain moment
in time by Libyan Berber-speakers driven from their land by Arab conquerors.
Lastly, it experienced a period of decline and faced between the ninth and twelfth
century AD a drastic demographic decline (Fakhry 1973). Therefore, the current
gene pool
of Siwa people could be related to recent migrations/founder effects or it
could be the result of the various genetic exchanges which occurred in the Past."
http://npu.edu.ua/!e-book/book/djvu/A/iif_kgpm_Errico_Becoming_Eloquent_pdf.pdf

We have many accounts of slaves being left in Siwa. If they did not mix with the local population then what happened to them?


So now their R1b is Chadic in origin..LMFA, Firs Tibu, Sudansese, Chadic, Central African..whats next.

I never mentioned Sudanese. If you are not familiar with where R-V88 is concentrated in Africa then look it up. I'll give you a clue, it ain't East Africa.

The Only Large scale slave trade in the area was of the Tibu, now suddenly you abandon your Tibu theory.

I have not abandoned anything. I need to look at the Tibu to see how they cluster genetically with the Siwa.

All Tests done on the Siwa indicate they are Nilotic and East African in origin meaning their B hg is native not derived from slavery. You are just scrambling like a rat to validate yourself because you lost this debate.

There is no certianty of that. B's highest concentration is among Pygmies.

If the Siwi were so Chadian derived both with B and the R1 hg they would resemble Chadians, yet every image of a Siwi would stick out in Chad.

They are obviously mixed with Arab as well as demonstrated by the presence of J in their genetics.

Your Boat is sinking quick..

Nah its smooth sailing for me on a most pleasant and tranquil sea. You on the other hand..


The Nail in your coffin is that the Siwi probably represent the best of what the original Berbers looked like with some influence from Nilo-Saharan speakers.

The funny part is that all the facts are before you, and you can't comprehend ****. There is very little shared genetic lineage between the Siwa and other Berbers. Most of the so called non Afrocentrics who wish to ignore the influx of slaves end up concluding that the Siwa were Sub saharan Africans that were berberized.

"Originally Posted by Elan-y
Not that really wrong. They only have 1.1% of E-M81 Hg . Many might be from a Nilotic/Chadic population that was recently Berberized.

That's a very low percentage for a berber population"


Why? Because they have no genetic afinity with other Berbers. All they have is the language and culture, which they could have been imposed or absorbed by them. The Berbers are in part the result of a migration out of the Horn of Africa by E M35 and it's dervicitve E-m81 which are believed to have carried AFRO-ASIATIC languages into North Africa.
And What's this??

 -

So now you want to imply that the Siwa were orginally Middle Eastern looking?? [Big Grin]

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melchior7
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Folks can only spin in circles for so long with out vomiting from throwing off equilibrium. The Garrig Bitch is all over the place, in a frenzy to find an African people to make the Siwi as slaves, yet I have not changed my position which is supported by the very people who studied the Siwa and anyone familiar with the Siwa, even non Afrocentrics from Antrocivs and Antroscape know this.

Liar7 is a Google Scholar which is why he constantlty changes his argument. LMAO, and he thinks he can match wits with folks like Expolorer and Sundjaita..LOL.


many on Antrocivsa nd elsewhere think that the Siwa are Berberized sub saharan Africans not related to real Berbers.

And I use google to back up what I already know, unlike you who just pulls crap out of your ass and expects every one to believe you.

As far as Explorer or Sundjiata, I have had the pleasure of arguing with both of them, and one thing I can say for sure, in comparison, you are definitely light work.

 -

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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many on Antrocivsa nd elsewhere think that the Siwa are Berberized sub saharan Africans not related to real Berbers.

Sure, but as I said only those who know what they are talking about know the Siwi are not "Berberized" Sub Saharans...


quote:



Aasaru
what I am really trying to say is that , A and B hgs ARE north African lineages ...


the Siwan B hg is native , it doesn't need to be 'Berberized' .....it is perhaps, because of the oasis isolation, it was not absorbed by the parallel clades of E1b1b in the region (M-78 / M-81 ) ..
on the other hand, R-V88 and J1 are the adapters of the Berber language , along with other non-native haplogroups in the region...


but the again who gives a Damn what I, You or anyone on any website thinks when we have the words of the people who studied the Siwi..


The mitochondrial DNA variation of 295 Berber-speakers from Morocco (Asni, Bouhria and Figuig) and the Egyptian oasis of Siwa was evaluated by sequencing a portion of the control region (including HVS-I and part of HVS-II) and surveying haplogroup-specific coding region markers. Our findings show that the Berber mitochondrial pool is characterized by an overall high frequency of Western Eurasian haplogroups, a somehow lower frequency of sub-Saharan L lineages, and a significant (but differential) presence of North African haplogroups U6 and M1, thus occupying an intermediate position between European and sub-Saharan populations in PCA analysis. A clear and significant genetic differentiation between the Berbers from Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers was also observed. The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa. We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations.


Their B and other Hgs are native and links them to Nile Valley and East Africa.

And I use google to back up what I already know, unlike you who just pulls crap out of your ass and expects every one to believe you.

How Ironic, Everyone can read who was pulling sh3t out their ass. I mean how many times did you change your position?? You dumbass google scholar scrambling for some info to validate your B.S.

As far as Explorer or Sundjiata, I have had the pleasure of arguing with both of them, and one thing I can say for sure, in comparison, you are definitely light work.

Yeah but you lost this debate against me, so what does that say about you kid.??

Damn Dude, I ate you alive in this debate....
.... Jesus Christ..

LOL,

You're dismissed.

 -

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melchior7
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Sure, but as I said only those who know what they are talking about know the Siwi are not "Berberized" Sub Saharans

Says you. Is Aasaru an expert?

"Aasaru
what I am really trying to say is that , A and B hgs ARE north African lineages ...
the Siwan B hg is native , it doesn't need to be 'Berberized' .....it is perhaps, because of the oasis isolation, it was not absorbed by the parallel clades of E1b1b in the region (M-78 / M-81 ) ..
on the other hand, R-V88 and J1 are the adapters of the Berber language , along with other non-native haplogroups in the region..."

He doesn't know what the hell he is talking about. A and B are not North African lineages. And the links he posted do not support his claim.


but the again who gives a Damn what I, You or anyone on any website thinks when we have the words of the people who studied the Siwi..


"The mitochondrial DNA variation of 295 Berber-speakers from Morocco (Asni, Bouhria and Figuig) and the Egyptian oasis of Siwa was evaluated by sequencing a portion of the control region (including HVS-I and part of HVS-II) and surveying haplogroup-specific coding region markers. Our findings show that the Berber mitochondrial pool is characterized by an overall high frequency of Western Eurasian haplogroups, a somehow lower frequency of sub-Saharan L lineages, and a significant (but differential) presence of North African haplogroups U6 and M1, thus occupying an intermediate position between European and sub-Saharan populations in PCA analysis. A clear and significant genetic differentiation between the Berbers from Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers was also observed. The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa. We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations."


This article analyses the mtDNA of Berbers and notes that there is a difference between Egyptian Berbers and others. It concludes by saying that the differences are likely the result of mixing with migrating and surrounding populations. This does not come close to saying what you you think it means. I wonder why you can't see that? Lol. And aside from the differences in mtDNA. Again we have this.

 -
That says it all buddy.


How Ironic, Everyone can read who was pulling sh3t out their ass. I mean how many times did you change your position?? You dumbass google scholar scrambling for some info to validate your B.S.

All you did was nitpick of over minor issues about whether their ancestry was Chadic or Nilotic etc. The bottom line is that THEY DON"T CARRY the genetic marker of most Aftro Asiatic Berbers, capish?

Yeah but you lost this debate against me, so what does that say about you kid.??

Damn Dude, I ate you alive in this debate....
.... Jesus Christ..


Yeah? what color is the sky in your world???

How about a reality check. I have claimed that Berbers were mostly Eurasians in appearance, and I provided quotes from 14th century scholars like Ibn Battuta who did mention light skinned Berber tribes. Then your silly butt comes on here arguing about Black Berbers in Southern Morocco who I told you represent a minority in Morocco. You can even tell by their appearance that they look West African Lol. You disputed this and I posted a map to show that the town in question was in Southern Morocco near the Draa valley as I said. Lol. Then the Siwa Berbers are brought up as examples of what the original Berber looked like. I mentioned the Egyptian depctions of Lbyans Berbers which you claimed were Greeks. [Roll Eyes] I post a link on Ramses II being of likely Libyan descent with red hair and light skin which of course you ignore. You then tried to claim that Siwa were isolated and you were soon educated to the fact that the Siwa oasis is at a virtual crossroads, and has seen many people come and go. Once the site of a famous oracle frequented by Greeks and others. You read about how the population was nearly depleted and then attacked by Arabs and Beduins etc And finally a place where Slaves were sold. But you persited stubbornly in claiming that the Siwa were somehwo able to maintian their genetic integrity. So I dropped the bomb on you showing how their Y dna is drastically different from other Berbers, and has makers not even seen in other Berber groups. What you don't realize is that you have been put in position where you can not demonstrate any geneological connection of Siwa Berbers with the majority of other Berbers.

Even funnier is that you first post pictures of Dark skkinned Berbers to buttress your claim that the original Berbers were Black. Then in order to refute the claim that they are descendants of slaves you start posting Middle Eastern looking folk. Lol.

Buddy if you really think you won this debate, you are certianly beyond reason. And the only thing that might bring you around is professional therapy and some serious meds.

 -

Sorry dude.

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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Nope. It is not.

"B2a1a originated in Central/Western Africa, while E1b1b1e is common in Eastern
Africa. Thus, it poses a question about the Sahara desert’s role in population movements
and exchanges."

And it's highest frequencies are in still central Africa. Observe.

"Haplogroup B2a1a (M109, M152, P32, P50) is the most commonly observed subclade of haplogroup B.

In Central Africa, haplogroup B2a1a Y-DNA has been found in 23% (7/31) of Ngumba males from southern Cameroon,[2] 18% (7/39) of Fali males from northern Cameroon,[6] 5% (1/21)[6] to 31% (4/13)[2] of Uldeme males from northern Cameroon, 10% (3/29) of Ewondo males from southern Cameroon,[6] 7% (1/15) of a mixed sample of speakers of various Chadic languages from northern Cameroon,[6] 6% (1/18) of a mixed sample of speakers of various Adamawa languages from northern Cameroon,[6] 6% (2/33) of Bakola males from southern Cameroon,[2] 4% (1/28) of Mandara males from northern Cameroon,[2] and 3% (1/31)[2] to 5% (1/20)[6] of Biaka males from Central African Republic.

In East Africa, haplogroup B2a1a Y-DNA has been found in 11% (1/9) of a small sample of Iraqw males from Tanzania,[2] 11% (1/9) of a small sample of Luo males from Kenya,[2] 8% (2/26) of Massai males from Kenya,[2] and 4.5% (4/88) of a sample of Ethiopians.[7]

In Southern Africa, haplogroup B2a1a Y-DNA has been found in 18% (5/28) of Sotho–Tswana males from South Africa,[2] 14% (4/29) of Zulu males from South Africa,[2] 13% (7/53) of an ethnically mixed sample of non-Khoisan Southern Africans,[7] 10% (5/49) of Shona males from Zimbabwe,[2] and 5% (4/80) of Xhosa males from South Africa.[2]

In North Africa, haplogroup B2a1a Y-DNA has been found in 12.5% (5/40) of Sudanese[7] and 2% (2/92) of Egyptians.[2]"

Also R-V88 has it's highest concentration in Central Africa.


The B hg is East African in Origin, and by the way South Africans, Pygmies etc. Were not involved in the slave Trade. The Study is pretty clear that the Siwi are linked Via the Nile Valley..for example the B is present in the Sudan and Egypt and East Africa.

Many believe that the Current Siwa genetics are not that of the orignal Berbers

So Im Sure you are going to give us this "Many" people in the quote you post.

"However we know that throughout history the oasis was called at by successive
human groups, like pilgrims travelling to Mecca, Mediterranean tradesmen, or Sahelian
slave merchants. Siwa may even have been repopulated at a certain moment
in time by Libyan Berber-speakers driven from their land by Arab conquerors.
Lastly, it experienced a period of decline and faced between the ninth and twelfth
century AD a drastic demographic decline (Fakhry 1973). Therefore, the current
gene pool of Siwa people could be related to recent migrations/founder effects
or it
could be the result of the various genetic exchanges which occurred in the Past."[/i]

According to that quote the slave trade is but one possible effect on the Siwi. Despite that the Siwi still are genetically East African and Nilotic. Funny how majority of the people from that study are Meds and Arabs yet the Siwi still remain African in Phenotype, Language, and Customs.

Influences from the Middle East and East Africa are marked in Siwa, while southwestern European influences are observed in the Maghreb[i]

Yeah? Where did you demonstrate that? Lol


The Siwi Language is preserved and Historically to this day the Siwi do not marry with the Arab Families or slaves.

The Siwians themselves claim to be unchanged. I would believe a Siwan over a Google Scholar anyday.


I never mentioned Sudanese. If you are not familiar with where R-V88 is concentrated in Africa then look it up. I'll give you a clue, it ain't East Africa.

Who mentioned Sudanese?? You/I said Chad dumbass, read my quote you posted above this.


Why? Because they have no genetic afinity with other Berbers. All they have is the language and culture, which they could have been imposed or absorbed by them. The Berbers are in part the result of a migration out of the Horn of Africa by E M35 and it's dervicitve E-m81 which are believed to have carried AFRO-ASIATIC languages into North Africa.
And What's this??


They have Genetic Affinity to Nile Valley and East African Populations, where Afroasiatic and Berber originated.

You keep running and avoiding this like the plague but it wont go away..

[i]The mitochondrial DNA variation of 295 Berber-speakers from Morocco (Asni, Bouhria and Figuig) and the Egyptian oasis of Siwa was evaluated by sequencing a portion of the control region (including HVS-I and part of HVS-II) and surveying haplogroup-specific coding region markers. Our findings show that the Berber mitochondrial pool is characterized by an overall high frequency of Western Eurasian haplogroups, a somehow lower frequency of sub-Saharan L lineages, and a significant (but differential) presence of North African haplogroups U6 and M1, thus occupying an intermediate position between European and sub-Saharan populations in PCA analysis. A clear and significant genetic differentiation between the Berbers from Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers was also observed. The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa. We conclude that the origins and maternal diversity of Berber populations are old and complex, and these communities bear genetic characteristics resulting from various events of gene flow with surrounding and migrating populations.



So now you want to imply that the Siwa were orginally Middle Eastern looking??

Where did I say that??

I mean can you go with out resorting to Red Herring and Strawman Fallacy arguments..??

Actually they look East African and Nile Valley(Whom the Link to Genetically)..

Sudanese

 -

Ethiopian

 -

Egyptian

 -

Siwans

 -


 -

The Link and resemblence in undeniable..LOL.

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Says you. Is Aasaru an expert?


He doesn't know what the hell he is talking about. A and B are not North African lineages. And the links he posted do not support his claim.


Who says you are an expert?? You know nothing of what you are talking about. B originated in East Africa and is found in Nile Valley Populations. The B hg is native.


This article analyses the mtDNA of Berbers and notes that there is a difference between Egyptian Berbers and others. It concludes by saying that the differences are likely the result of mixing with migrating and surrounding populations. This does not come close to saying what you you think it means. I wonder why you can't see that? Lol.

It concludes by saying that the conclusion is old and complex. Try to claim that slavery is the answer is not supported by the study which links the Siwi to East African and Nile Valley populations.

I can see that for sure.


All you did was nitpick of over minor issues about whether their ancestry was Chadic or Nilotic etc. The bottom line is that THEY DON"T CARRY the genetic marker of most Aftro Asiatic Berbers, capish?

No you changed your position to fit the bill of which population was the better Slave. The Bottom Line is they STILL are Linked Genetically to Afro-Asiatic East African Populations. No Wishful thinking and slave fairytales wont change the facts..

.. Capish.

That says it all buddy.

Proves that the Siwi are the best preserved of the Berbers linking them to East Africa where the language arose in the first place. Even funnier is the Siwi have the highest amount of J1 of the Berbers in that study yet they are supposed to be African slaves..


How about a reality check. I have claimed that Berbers were mostly Eurasians in appearance, and I provided quotes from 14th century scholars like Ibn Battuta who did mention light skinned Berber tribes.

Who cares, where did I say there were no Eurasian looking Berbers dumbfuck?? 14th provides plenty of time for European Immigrants to arrive in coastal North Africa.

hen your silly butt comes on here arguing about Black Berbers in Southern Morocco who I told you represent a minority in Morocco. You can even tell by their appearance that they look West African Lol

What does this have to do with anything, how does this disprove the fact that the Tamegroute Berbers are Berbers??


Then the Siwa Berbers are brought up as examples of what the original Berber looked like. I mentioned the Egyptian depctions of Lbyans Berbers which you claimed were Greeks.

Please provide a Post where I said the Lybian Depictions were Greeks


You then tried to claim that Siwa were isolated and you were soon educated to the fact that the Siwa oasis is at a virtual crossroads, and has seen many people come and go. Once the site of a famous oracle frequented by Greeks and others. You read about how the population was nearly depleted and then attacked by Arabs and Beduins etc And finally a place where Slaves were sold.

The Siwa Oasia was Isolated by various accounts. Further the Siwi Berbers moved to the East of the Oasisi and Further Isolated themselves. The Period between the Slave Trade and the Population decline was Hundreds of years. You have yet to provide evidence of a large scale Admixing or replacing of the Siwi Population by slaves.

So I dropped the bomb on you showing how their Y dna is drastically different from other Berbers, and has makers not even seen in other Berber groups. What you don't realize is that you have been put in position where you can not demonstrate any geneological connection of Siwa Berbers with the majority of other Berbers.

And their DNA is Genetically East African and Nile Valley.


So I dropped the bomb on you showing how their Y dna is drastically different from other Berbers, and has makers not even seen in other Berber groups. What you don't realize is that you have been put in position where you can not demonstrate any geneological connection of Siwa Berbers with the majority of other Berbers.

Show me the "Middle Eastern Folk" LMAO, You are such a failure. Every Siwi I posted are East African and Nile Valley in Appearance.


Buddy if you really think you won this debate, you are certianly beyond reason. And the only thing that might bring you around is professional therapy and some serious meds.

I don't think I won, I know I did. You claims about Black Berbers steming from slaves is unfounded. As the Original Berbers probably resembled the Siwi.

The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa.

While the other Berbers are the result of European influences..(Slavery, Invasions etc.)

the first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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I don't think the Siwi Girls look Middle Eastern they look East African/Nile Valley..

Siwi
 -

Eritrea
 -

Siwi
 -

Egyptians
 -

Siwans
 -

Ethiopian
 -

Siwi
 -
^^^
You would have no problem seeing those Elders as Tewahedo Christian Preists in Ethiopia.

Central Africans...??? Come on dude, The blackest of the Siwi would stick out in Chad.

anyway Im done, if you don't see a problem with claiming every single black Berber as the result of slaves because of your fixed notion of what you think the Berbers looked like oh well.

No where did I say there were no Eurasian Berbers, Ive always maintained there were black and white berbers.

Ive spent way to much time and energy on this.

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melchior7
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B originated in East Africa and is found in Nile Valley Populations. The B hg is native.

He went on to say it was Notrh African. It's certianly not a Berber marker

"Haplogroup B is localized to sub-Saharan Africa, especially to tropical forests of West-Central Africa. After Y-haplogroup A, it is the second oldest and one of the most diverse human Y-haplogroups. It was the ancestral haplogroup of not only modern Pygmies like the Baka and Mbuti, but also Hadzabe from Tanzania, who often have been considered, in large part because of some typological features of their language, to be a remnant of Khoisan people in East Africa."


Proves that the Siwi are the best preserved of the Berbers linking them to East Africa where the language arose in the first place.

Nope and their language is an offshoot of Libyan Berber


Even funnier is the Siwi have the highest amount of J1 of the Berbers in that study yet they are supposed to be African slaves.

That's from the Arbs and Beduins, obviously.


You claims about Black Berbers steming from slaves is unfounded. As the Original Berbers probably resembled the Siwi.

And you can not prove any of this especially not the later.

And these look Middle Eastern to me.

 -


The B hg is East African in Origin, and by the way South Africans, Pygmies etc. Were not involved in the slave Trade. The Study is pretty clear that the Siwi are linked Via the Nile Valley..for example the B is present in the Sudan and Egypt and East Africa.

A and B are the haplogroups of the first Africans which were Khoisans and pygmies. The E Haplogroup which is predominante among most Berbers comes out of East Africa at a much later date.

The Siwi Language is preserved and Historically to this day the Siwi do not marry with the Arab Families or slaves.

The Siwians themselves claim to be unchanged. I would believe a Siwan over a Google Scholar anyday.


Have at then.

"The alleles O483, O934 and O03 (649&689) which were discovered in the population of Siwa could be specific to this population. These alleles probably come from external contributions, although the inhabitants of Siwa are known for their will to preserve the integrity of their community by marriages within the widened family. Siwa was an important stage for the caravans. The foreigners were to sleep outside the city and the contacts were limited (Fakhry A., 1973). But it appears not very probable that no contact took place.

Moreover, if O01 and O02 are the alleles characteristic of Berber (bus being present at an important frequency), one should find only these two alleles in the population of Siwa (if it is really endogame). Indeed, the very important reductions of populations which occurred in the history of the oasis should have contributed to an important genetic impoverishment. However it is not the case since one notes polymorphism in the studied sample. Lastly, one will note the relatively important frequency of the allele O03 (649&689) which derives from a rare allele having in more two additional specific changes.
Conclusion

The study of the polymorphism of the allele O at the Berber ones of the oasis of Siwa enabled us to characterize 3 alleles not yet described so far. The presence of these alleles cannot be explained only by genetic insulation and the history of this population. Exchanges with the populations of passage or the populations surrounding had to take place. The results obtained confirm all the interest of the study of gene ABO in genetics of the populations."
http://thenile.phpbb-host.com/ftopic571.php.


Questions about the linguistics:

"Carles Múrcia has recently completed his PhD at Barcelona, and put it up online: La llengua amaziga a l’antiguitat a partir de les fonts gregues i llatines. I'm afraid it's in Catalan, but if you can read French or Spanish you shouldn't have much difficulty (although it would be nice if he had translated more of the Greek quotations.) So far I've read the parts about Egypt and Cyrenaica. For Egypt, he points out there is no linguistic evidence that the Lebu / Libyans or Meshwesh, or any of the other Western Desert tribes recorded before the Mazices of the Byzantine era, spoke Berber, nor even that Siwa spoke Berber before the Byzantine era. This fits with my own observations that Siwi is simply too much like Western Libyan Berber to be the survival of an ancient Berber language of the Western Desert - although the activists who urge Imazighen to date their calendar from the "Amazigh" conquest of Egypt by the Libyans may not be happy with this cautious conclusion! For Cyrenaica, on the other hand, he shows that a number of words recorded in classical sources have convincing Berber etymologies, suggesting that Awjila may represent the continuation of a very early Berber-speaking population."

So Im Sure you are going to give us this "Many" people in the quote you post.

Here is just and example, just look at some of the comments on here.

http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=MtK3sCs-Jlk


They have Genetic Affinity to Nile Valley and East African Populations, where Afroasiatic and Berber originated.
You keep running and avoiding this like the plague but it wont go away..


That is only one side of their DNA. What about the Y dna? Where is the signature Berber haplotypes? Obviously these folks don't descend from the same male lineages as the majority of Amazigh so to use them as an example of the orginal Berbers doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

"The distri-bution of E-M81 chromosomes in Africa closely matches the present area of distribution of Berber-speaking populations on the continent, suggesting a close haplo-group–ethnic group parallelism: in northwestern Africa,the lowest frequencies for this haplogroup have beenreported in two Arab-speaking Moroccan populations(31% and 52% vs. 65%–80% in six Berber speakinggroups from Morocco and Algeria [Bosch et al. 2001;Cruciani et al. 2002; present study]); in Egypt, where Berbers are restricted to a few villages, E-M81 is rare(1.9%), and the southernmost finding of E-M81 chromosomes on the continent is that here reported in the Tuareg from Niger (9.1%), who also speak a Berber"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181964/

Nuff said.

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melchior7
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anyway Im done, if you don't see a problem with claiming every single black Berber as the result of slaves because of your fixed notion of what you think the Berbers looked like oh well.

No where did I say there were no Eurasian Berbers, Ive always maintained there were black and white berbers.

Ive spent way to much time and energy on this.


I never said all Black Berbers were descendant of slaves. I only posted some articles that mentioned that the gnawa in Morocco and some of the Siwa were descendant of slaves. Certianly many Black Berbers were not slaves. Many of the ones in the Southern Sahara were probably assimilated as the Moorish empire expanded Southward over time.

The main contention was with Dana Marniche and the her OP. You seemed to be saying that the real Berbers were Blacks and the rest descendant of White slaves. If this is not what you believe than we are wasting each other's time.

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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^^^^^^^^
My contention is that the Berbers are a mixed group to begin with who arose from populations out of East Africa and the Eastern Saharah and were likely black. They obviously mixed with Europeans and Eurasian from an early date to create light skinned and white Berbers.

My problem is with this idea that the Black Berbers are descended from slaves which is a hyocritical stance to take given the European Genetic influence on the White Berbers and the European slave trade one can make the same argument.

Obviously the Siwi mixed with other people but I think they were native Nile Saharans rather than slaves. The Siwi were very selective in who they inter married with and they Isolated themselves and built Fotresses to bar outsiders. I doubt a large scale mixing with slaves occured, it makes much more sense that the Berbers mixed with native Nilo Sahrans(if anyt large scale mixing occured).

BTW, You certainly make it seem that you believe Black Berbers=Slaves.


"The alleles O483, O934 and O03 (649&689) which were discovered in the population of Siwa could be specific to this population. These alleles probably come from external contributions, although the inhabitants of Siwa are known for their will to preserve the integrity of their community by marriages within the widened family. Siwa was an important stage for the caravans. The foreigners were to sleep outside the city and the contacts were limited (Fakhry A., 1973). But it appears not very probable that no contact took place.

Moreover, if O01 and O02 are the alleles characteristic of Berber (bus being present at an important frequency), one should find only these two alleles in the population of Siwa (if it is really endogame). Indeed, the very important reductions of populations which occurred in the history of the oasis should have contributed to an important genetic impoverishment. However it is not the case since one notes polymorphism in the studied sample. Lastly, one will note the relatively important frequency of the allele O03 (649&689) which derives from a rare allele having in more two additional specific changes.
Conclusion

The study of the polymorphism of the allele O at the Berber ones of the oasis of Siwa enabled us to characterize 3 alleles not yet described so far. The presence of these alleles cannot be explained only by genetic insulation and the history of this population. Exchanges with the populations of passage or the populations surrounding had to take place. The results obtained confirm all the interest of the study of gene ABO in genetics of the populations."


I don't understand how this means that a large scale replacement or admixture occured. I never denied mixing occured I denied the idea that slaves made the Siwi go from Blond Kabyles to Brown East Africans, makes no sense.

Also the Siwi carry the highest amount of J1 of the Berbers in your chart yet they jumped all over slaves??

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melchior7
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BTW, You certainly make it seem that you believe Black Berbers=Slaves.

But I don't.

I never denied mixing occured I denied the idea that slaves made the Siwi go from Blond Kabyles to Brown East Africans, makes no sense.

But it seems that you did with your quotes about the Siwa never mixing with foreigners. One last question, what happened to the light sklined Libyans that the Egyptians depicted and red haired berbers like Ramses II?

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But I don't.

Then I have no argument with you then, this was the main reason why I was arguing.

But it seems that you did with your quotes about the Siwa never mixing with foreigners. I did not mean to imply that the Siwa never mixed with foreigners, I was against the notion of a replacement or large scale admixure with slaves. The Siwi certainly mixed with Merchants and some slaves but I don't see how a large scale influx of Central African slaves can produce a people who look identical to Nile Valley and East African populations. Even other Africans of the diaspora who are heavily mixed like Dominicans don't look like that.

I believe the Siwi are still legit Berbers I don't see why that should be denied of them, esp. when they speak the language and practice the culture. I think if the Siwi Mixed they mixed with a Native Nile-Saharan group who inhabited the Oasis who would be similar to the Tibu. This Mixture would be as old as the Mixing of the maghrebian Berbers with European/Eurasian settlers. This is what I think folks on Antrocivics were getting at as this would explain their looks and customs.

One last question, what happened to the light sklined Libyans that the Egyptians depicted and red haired berbers like Ramses II?

In my opinion I don't think the Light Lybian depicted by Egyptians would have looked like Blond Kabyles or Riffians. I think they would look similar to people like Kadaffi and his son/Family. So In essence these people are still in North Africa. I believe Red Headed N.A were rare and are rare today but still present in N.A. Again there is good evidence that the Lybians depicted were a mixture of European settlers on the Coast of North Africa, This would help explain why berbers have such a signifigant amount of European DNA.

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KoKaKoLa
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Ramses II was not berber...
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Frigi et al.

Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra- Saharan Africa.


Oasis Berber language
Sioua language
Siouah language
Siouwa language
Siua language
Siuwah language
Siwah language
Siwi language
Syouah language
Zenati language (Siwa)
Broader Terms
Berber languages
Egypt--Languages
Sources
found: Linguasphere, 1999 (Siwa, Siwah, Siouwa; Siwah oasis; Egypt (As-Sahra Al-Gharbiyah)
found: Biebuyck, D. African ethnonyms, 1996 (Siwa (Egypt); Berber language)
found: Ethnologue, 2009 (Siwi; a language of Egypt; northwest desert, Siwa Oasis; several isolated villages in west oasis; alt. names: Oasis Berber, Sioua, Siwa, Zenati)


East Africa.

quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:


And these look Middle Eastern to me.

 -


That's a weak argument,


 -

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quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
^^^^^^^^
My contention is that the Berbers are a mixed group to begin with who arose from populations out of East Africa and the Eastern Saharah and were likely black. They obviously mixed with Europeans and Eurasian from an early date to create light skinned and white Berbers.

My problem is with this idea that the Black Berbers are descended from slaves which is a hyocritical stance to take given the European Genetic influence on the White Berbers and the European slave trade one can make the same argument.

Obviously the Siwi mixed with other people but I think they were native Nile Saharans rather than slaves. The Siwi were very selective in who they inter married with and they Isolated themselves and built Fotresses to bar outsiders. I doubt a large scale mixing with slaves occured, it makes much more sense that the Berbers mixed with native Nilo Sahrans(if anyt large scale mixing occured).

BTW, You certainly make it seem that you believe Black Berbers=Slaves.


"The alleles O483, O934 and O03 (649&689) which were discovered in the population of Siwa could be specific to this population. These alleles probably come from external contributions, although the inhabitants of Siwa are known for their will to preserve the integrity of their community by marriages within the widened family. Siwa was an important stage for the caravans. The foreigners were to sleep outside the city and the contacts were limited (Fakhry A., 1973). But it appears not very probable that no contact took place.

Moreover, if O01 and O02 are the alleles characteristic of Berber (bus being present at an important frequency), one should find only these two alleles in the population of Siwa (if it is really endogame). Indeed, the very important reductions of populations which occurred in the history of the oasis should have contributed to an important genetic impoverishment. However it is not the case since one notes polymorphism in the studied sample. Lastly, one will note the relatively important frequency of the allele O03 (649&689) which derives from a rare allele having in more two additional specific changes.
Conclusion

The study of the polymorphism of the allele O at the Berber ones of the oasis of Siwa enabled us to characterize 3 alleles not yet described so far. The presence of these alleles cannot be explained only by genetic insulation and the history of this population. Exchanges with the populations of passage or the populations surrounding had to take place. The results obtained confirm all the interest of the study of gene ABO in genetics of the populations."


I don't understand how this means that a large scale replacement or admixture occured. I never denied mixing occured I denied the idea that slaves made the Siwi go from Blond Kabyles to Brown East Africans, makes no sense.

Also the Siwi carry the highest amount of J1 of the Berbers in your chart yet they jumped all over slaves??

Fundamentally what that study tells is that Siwas have been there long this comprises with the artifacts and hyroglyps you've shown. And it shows they have some admixture. Which is historically correct. I already summed up the invaders of that area, this led to mixture.
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melchior7
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quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
But I don't.

Then I have no argument with you then, this was the main reason why I was arguing.

But it seems that you did with your quotes about the Siwa never mixing with foreigners. I did not mean to imply that the Siwa never mixed with foreigners, I was against the notion of a replacement or large scale admixure with slaves. The Siwi certainly mixed with Merchants and some slaves but I don't see how a large scale influx of Central African slaves can produce a people who look identical to Nile Valley and East African populations. Even other Africans of the diaspora who are heavily mixed like Dominicans don't look like that.

I believe the Siwi are still legit Berbers I don't see why that should be denied of them, esp. when they speak the language and practice the culture. I think if the Siwi Mixed they mixed with a Native Nile-Saharan group who inhabited the Oasis who would be similar to the Tibu. This Mixture would be as old as the Mixing of the maghrebian Berbers with European/Eurasian settlers. This is what I think folks on Antrocivics were getting at as this would explain their looks and customs.

One last question, what happened to the light sklined Libyans that the Egyptians depicted and red haired berbers like Ramses II?

In my opinion I don't think the Light Lybian depicted by Egyptians would have looked like Blond Kabyles or Riffians. I think they would look similar to people like Kadaffi and his son/Family. So In essence these people are still in North Africa. I believe Red Headed N.A were rare and are rare today but still present in N.A. Again there is good evidence that the Lybians depicted were a mixture of European settlers on the Coast of North Africa, This would help explain why berbers have such a signifigant amount of European DNA.

I believe the majority probably looked like Kadaffi as well but I beleive that their phenotype resulted from the influx of folks from the Middle East 20,000 years ago.
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quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
Ramses II was not berber...

It is not 100% certain he was Berber but apparently some feel that his phenotype and hair color was unusual for an Egyptian and closer to that of Libyan Berbers.

"Ramses II , according to L. Balout, C. Roubet and C. Desroches-Noblecourt, study titled 'La Momie de Ramsès II: Contribution Scientifique à l'Égyptologie (1985).' Balout and Roubet concluded that "the anthropological study and the microscopic analysis" of the pharaoh's hair showed that Ramses II was "a fair-skinned man related to the Prehistoric and Antiquity Mediterranean peoples, or briefly, of the Berber of Africa."

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KoKaKoLa
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quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
Ramses II was not berber...

It is not 100% certain he was Berber but apparently some feel that his phenotype and hair color was unusual for an Egyptian and closer to that of Libyan Berbers.

"Ramses II , according to L. Balout, C. Roubet and C. Desroches-Noblecourt, study titled 'La Momie de Ramsès II: Contribution Scientifique à l'Égyptologie (1985).' Balout and Roubet concluded that "the anthropological study and the microscopic analysis" of the pharaoh's hair showed that Ramses II was "a fair-skinned man related to the Prehistoric and Antiquity Mediterranean peoples, or briefly, of the Berber of Africa."

/Resources/ramses2ankh.jpeg[/IMG]
 -
LOL French people..fair skinned? NO.
berber?No

He looked beja to me.

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melchior7
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quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
Ramses II was not berber...

It is not 100% certain he was Berber but apparently some feel that his phenotype and hair color was unusual for an Egyptian and closer to that of Libyan Berbers.

"Ramses II , according to L. Balout, C. Roubet and C. Desroches-Noblecourt, study titled 'La Momie de Ramsès II: Contribution Scientifique à l'Égyptologie (1985).' Balout and Roubet concluded that "the anthropological study and the microscopic analysis" of the pharaoh's hair showed that Ramses II was "a fair-skinned man related to the Prehistoric and Antiquity Mediterranean peoples, or briefly, of the Berber of Africa."

/Resources/ramses2ankh.jpeg[/IMG]
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LOL French people..fair skinned? NO.
berber?No

He looked beja to me.

Yes very very Beja looking. [Big Grin]
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KoKaKoLa
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 -
Seti I looked 100% Beja. the features that he and Ramses had ..are 'typically' Beja.

 -

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Djehuti
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LOL The Malcontent and Kookoohead are all getting their brains splattered.

The earliest depiction of Libyans comes from the Old Kingdom. Very few have their paint in tact but according to the writings of Oric Bates these early Libyans were of the same brown (chocolate) complexion as the Egyptians. Fair types were not portrayed until the late Middle Kingdom.

The Malconent speaks of a migration from the Iberian Peninsula to North Africa during the Last Glacial Maximum when in fact there is more evidence of the opposite-- hg E1b1b and even early E2 found in Iberia as well as cattle remains of African origin.

He speaks of African "diverse" looks associated with Afroasiatic speakers but where did the Afroasiatic langauge originate? Certainly not in Iberia! LOL The language phylum originated in Africa where the vast majority of languages are still found. Only Semitic is an outlier found in Southwest Asia.

As for mitchondrial U6 that has been discussed many times in this forum. U6 is found in its highest frequency and diversity in North Africa NOT in the Near East and is just as much African as Y-chromosomal E.

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melchior7
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The Malconent speaks of a migration from the Iberian Peninsula to North Africa during the Last Glacial Maximum when in fact there is more evidence of the opposite-- hg E1b1b and even early E2 found in Iberia as well as cattle remains of African origin.

Oh ok. So folks and their livestock can cross into Europe but not the other way around. Yeah that seems pretty logical. [Roll Eyes]

And U6 stems from U in the Near East. So it spread into North Africa but that doesn't mean that it's carriers didn't resemble folks who carried the ancestor clade in the Near East. Oh wait... let me guess because they had entered Africa they magically became Black. [Eek!] Dude step off, you're too dumb for you're own good.

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

As you wish - change it to "fair-skinned" or "white BERBER TRIBE" Still waiting for anyone to make mention of one before the 16th century.

 -

BTW - Paintings of ancient Fulani people (ancestors of millions of African Americans) wearing their Fulani hairstyle and with the paint coming off don't mean their was any fair-skinned BERBER TRIBE on record. [Wink]

You're right, there are traces of dark paint left which makes me question the existence of fair Libyans altogether.

Remember this picture.

 -

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

Oh ok. So folks and their livestock can cross into Europe but not the other way around. Yeah that seems pretty logical. [Roll Eyes]

Of course the other way happened how else do you explain white Berbers, dimwit?!

quote:
And U6 stems from U in the Near East. So it spread into North Africa but that doesn't mean that it's carriers didn't resemble folks who carried the ancestor clade in the Near East. Oh wait... let me guess because they had entered Africa they magically became Black. [Eek!] Dude step off, you're too dumb for you're own good.
First of all proto-U6 has not been located in the Near East or anywhere. Second, it is not even found among eastern Berber speakers like the Siwa so this puts a hole in the 'Near Eastern' expansion. Third, how the original carriers look like is irrelevant to how their descendants look like. Genes for phenotype have no correlation to the actual uniparental signature. By the way, what do you think Near Eastern people 30 kya looked like? Do you think they were white red-heads?? LOL Lastly the actual estimated age of U6 in general is dated to 50 kya. You do realize that this coincides when humans first left Africa to colonize Eurasia, right?! How do you think these peoples looked like? Rather yet, since the Near East is right next door to Africa why do you assume there is a phenotypic disconnect??

By the way, you can read more about U6 as well as M1 and other Eurasianized Afrian lineages here!

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:

And these look Middle Eastern to me.

 -

Of course because they are obviously of mixed ancestry. Though as was shown to you the MAJORITY of Siwans do not look like this, but are very much obviously black!

Unlike you we don't resort to cherry picking even if it means picking what the majority look like! LOL [Big Grin]

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melchior7
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Of course the other way happened how else do you explain white Berbers, dimwit?!

I hope you realize I am talking prehistoric times, which would place Eursasians in the Magrheb around the time that Berber cultures were first forming.


First of all proto-U6 has not been located in the Near East or anywhere. Second, it is not even found among eastern Berber speakers like the Siwa so this puts a hole in the 'Near Eastern' expansion.

Oh ok U6 is unrelated to it's parent clade in the Near east and just pops up indepenently in North Africa. [Roll Eyes] And the distinct genetic signatures of Siwa (not having U6 etc) was one of the reasons why I expressed doubt they were descendants of actual Berbers as opposed to being a group of "Berberized" Nilo-Saharans.
I guess you missed that.

Third, how the original carriers look like is irrelevant to how their descendants look like. Genes for phenotype have no correlation to the actual uniparental signature. By the way, what do you think Near Eastern people 30 kya looked like? Do you think they were white red-heads?? LOL Lastly the actual estimated age of U6 in general is dated to 50 kya. You do realize that this coincides when humans first left Africa to colonize Eurasia, right?! How do you think these peoples looked like? Rather yet, since the Near East is right next door to Africa why do you assume there is a phenotypic disconnect??

No, I don't think they looked like "White" red heads, I think they looked Middle Eastern. Also, rephrasing your quote, North Africa is next to the Near East and Southern Europe, why exactly would you assume that a tropical African type is that one that spills over? Where do you think Eurasian traits begin, in Anatolia? On the contrary, Eurasisn traits began in North Africa. You can see Mediteranean traits in some East Africans. I think you fail to realize that Africa is an arbitrialy drawn continent whose boundries do not reflect any real racial demarcations. One could easily include the Arabian penisisula or Palestine which lies on the African tectonic plate as part of Africa. The same thing with Asia. It's the simpleton who believes that once someone crosses the Bosphorus in Europe all the folks on the other side are suddenly racially Asians becuase they happen to be on the Asian continent.


As far as U6 being 50,000 years that is an extreme estimate.

"U6, a maternal haplotype which originated in western Asia some 30,000 ago is very important ... The most probable origin of the proto-U6 lineage was the Near East. Around 30,000 years ago it spread to North Africa where it represents a signature of regional continuity. Subgroup U6a reflects the first African expansion from the Maghrib [see "Maghreb" ] returning to the east in Paleolithic times. Derivative clade U6a1 signals a posterior movement from East Africa back to the Maghrib and the Near East. This migration coincides with the probable Afroasiatic linguistic expansion. U6b and U6c clades, restricted to West Africa, had more localized expansions."
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/4/15

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Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor
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So according to that study, Afroasiatic was found in Eurasia 30.000 years ago?


Every linguist and historian knows that's major B.S. But if you want to, you can give some examples....of root words.


Plus U6 only makes up 9% frequency in some of the population. (and where is the prove, of all the "probability" historical female early migrationist / pastorals).


Now if it originated in western Asia, how come it's not found there in large numbers? Or spread to other regions of the world?


And I remember you wrote in an earlier post that U6 wasn't maternal....when here they say it is?


Than again they use the word...probably.....also on needs to understand that during the time of that study and before. Most studies were based Eurocentric. These are the words of Sharah Thiskoff. Who did an extensive study on Africans.

Also, prominent linguistics have steated that the Afroaciatic phylum derived from Northeast Africa Nuba leak (if I'm not mistaking).

Lastly, how did these "chicks" supposedly moved into all these places by themselves?

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the lioness,
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 -
___________________________________________________________________________^^^^Libyan
photo of tomb wall, Ramses III
1186–1155 BC

Note: The color of the belt/strap that is around the waist and across the chest of the two black figures in the center panel
is dark brown

Note: The Libyan from the same wall section painting is not dark brown


_________________________________________________
 -

^^^Libyan

Foreign prisoners of Ramesses IIIFaience tiles from the royal palace at Medinet Habu.

Note: the second figure from the left, again his belt/strap is the color brown.

Note: the Libyan's skin is not this color brown



 -

Mummy, Takarkori. Libya
radiocarbon date, about 6,000 years ago


 -

Tarim Mummy, Northern China bordering Russia


 -


.

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
 -
___________________________________________________________________________^^^^Libyan
photo of tomb wall, Ramses III
1186–1155 BC

Note: The color of the belt/strap that is around the waist and across the chest of the two black figures in the center panel
is dark brown

Note: The Libyan from the same wall section painting is not dark brown


_________________________________________________
 -

^^^Libyan

Foreign prisoners of Ramesses IIIFaience tiles from the royal palace at Medinet Habu.

Note: the second figure from the left, again his belt/strap is the color brown.

Note: the Libyan's skin is not this color brown



 -

Mummy, Takarkori. Libya
radiocarbon date, about 6,000 years ago


 -

Tarim Mummy, Northern China bordering Russia


 -


.

LYIng As.. - can you tell me why you keep posting photos from Mathilda's web-site as if you have discovered some information that there were some European-related people in the Sahara 6,000 years ago who made mummies before the Africans.

Her 2009 posting about Takarkori wasn't answered FOR A REASON. LOL!



http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2009/01/21/the-six-thousand-year-old-mummies-from-takarkori-libya/

Do you actually think Euronuts such as yourself would not have jumped all over this if such were the case. [Big Grin] [Roll Eyes]


BTW - repeated posting of Fulani ancestors and the same mulatto wearing a Fulani hairstyle is not going to change the matter.

[Cool]


http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=15&t=005359#000000

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Of course the other way happened how else do you explain white Berbers, dimwit?!

I hope you realize I am talking prehistoric times, which would place Eursasians in the Magrheb around the time that Berber cultures were first forming.


First of all proto-U6 has not been located in the Near East or anywhere. Second, it is not even found among eastern Berber speakers like the Siwa so this puts a hole in the 'Near Eastern' expansion.

Oh ok U6 is unrelated to it's parent clade in the Near east and just pops up indepenently in North Africa. [Roll Eyes] And the distinct genetic signatures of Siwa (not having U6 etc) was one of the reasons why I expressed doubt they were descendants of actual Berbers as opposed to being a group of "Berberized" Nilo-Saharans.
I guess you missed that.

Third, how the original carriers look like is irrelevant to how their descendants look like. Genes for phenotype have no correlation to the actual uniparental signature. By the way, what do you think Near Eastern people 30 kya looked like? Do you think they were white red-heads?? LOL Lastly the actual estimated age of U6 in general is dated to 50 kya. You do realize that this coincides when humans first left Africa to colonize Eurasia, right?! How do you think these peoples looked like? Rather yet, since the Near East is right next door to Africa why do you assume there is a phenotypic disconnect??

No, I don't think they looked like "White" red heads, I think they looked Middle Eastern. Also, rephrasing your quote, North Africa is next to the Near East and Southern Europe, why exactly would you assume that a tropical African type is that one that spills over? Where do you think Eurasian traits begin, in Anatolia? On the contrary, Eurasisn traits began in North Africa. You can see Mediteranean traits in some East Africans. I think you fail to realize that Africa is an arbitrialy drawn continent whose boundries do not reflect any real racial demarcations. One could easily include the Arabian penisisula or Palestine which lies on the African tectonic plate as part of Africa. The same thing with Asia. It's the simpleton who believes that once someone crosses the Bosphorus in Europe all the folks on the other side are suddenly racially Asians becuase they happen to be on the Asian continent.


As far as U6 being 50,000 years that is an extreme estimate.

"U6, a maternal haplotype which originated in western Asia some 30,000 ago is very important ... The most probable origin of the proto-U6 lineage was the Near East. Around 30,000 years ago it spread to North Africa where it represents a signature of regional continuity. Subgroup U6a reflects the first African expansion from the Maghrib [see "Maghreb" ] returning to the east in Paleolithic times. Derivative clade U6a1 signals a posterior movement from East Africa back to the Maghrib and the Near East. This migration coincides with the probable Afroasiatic linguistic expansion. U6b and U6c clades, restricted to West Africa, had more localized expansions."
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/4/15

Tell us Melchior what did people look like in the Middle East 30,000 years ago. I would love it hear it.
\
And thank you for your consideration of this matter. [Roll Eyes]

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
Sure, but as I said only those who know what they are talking about know the Siwi are not "Berberized" Sub Saharans
I have claimed that Berbers were mostly Eurasians in appearance, and I provided quotes from 14th century scholars like Ibn Battuta who did mention light skinned Berber tribes...

Ummm you most certainly have not all you told us is that Ibn Battuta like al Dukkali called the Tuareg Kel Antasar, Kel Ghiris, and Yantaras clans "white' "Abyad" as they are today in Mali and Niger.

We told you what the word "abyad" meant in Arabic on this forum. your European people are called ahmar "red" not abyad


Like you said - "Tuareg are not white" in the western European sense of the word.

al-Dukkali wrote like Battuta, “To the North of Mali there are tribes of white Berbers under the rule of its sultan namely Yantasar, Tin Gharas, Madusa and Lamtuna” (Levtzion & Spaulding, 2003, p. 54). These so-called ‘whites’ are the ancestors of the modern-day “golden brown” to dark-brownish Tuareg still known under their same names in Mali and Niger.

So much for your wqhite Berber evidence.

This is my last call. Still waiting for any single Berber tribe before the 16th century that is designated fair in color.


Why are you here arguing with people about black Moroccans. What proof do you have the Masmuda did not occupy the Riff coastal Morocco and rule Western Algeria all of the coast of Morocco 1000 years ago as all known scholarship says they did. you lose this arguement by avoiding history.


There are no black Berbers all of the peoples known as Masmuda, Zanata, Garawa, Maghrawa, Sanhaja Luwata, Kitama, Hawara, Mazikes were Ethiopians or "aswadun" or black and near black in color in the history books.

Its over! [Frown]

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melchior7
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Tell us Melchior what did people look like in the Middle East 30,000 years ago. I would love it hear it.
And thank you for your consideration of this matter.


Apparenly some had mixed with cold adapted Neanderthals and had crania seemed to be in between African and "Caucasian" types. And this was 100,000 years ago!

"100,000 YA. The Homo sapiens Skull Skhul 5 was discovered by T. McCown near Mount Carmel, Israel in 1932. McCown first described the skull in 1936 in the Bulletin American School of Prehistoric Research (Issue 12). The remains of 10 individuals were excavated from Skhul cave in 1932 and are widely considered to be the earliest examples of H. sapiens. The Skhul skulls show much variation in the expression of modern traits. With a cranial capacity of 1520 cc, features common to modern skulls are the high forehead, expanded frontal portion of the braincase, and rounded back of the skull. Differences from modern skulls include its more pronounced brow ridges, and prognathic lower face. Skhul 5 has been suggested as providing evidence of hybridization between humans and Neanderthals. Current evidence, indicates that Neanderthals and early modern Homo sapiens alternately occupied the Near East during cold and warm periods, respectively, for thousands of years. Custom Display Stand available below.


The Qafzeh VI skull was found in 1934 by R. Neuville in a Mousterian industry level. It belonged to an adult man. The present study shows that, for the greatest part of its characteristics—high cranial vault, upright frontal, orthognathism, presence of a canine fossa, shape of the orbits, etc.—the Qafzeh man is closer to Upper Paleolithic Homo sapiens than to Neandertal man. Some of its traits, the supra-orbital torus for example, recall the Neandertalian characteristics but without ever attaining the development observed on the latter.
Braincase Calculated cranial capacity (Pearson) 1568 cm3 Maximum".

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melchior7
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Ummm you most certainly have not all you told us is that Ibn Battuta like al Dukkali called the Tuareg Kel Antasar, Kel Ghiris, and Yantaras clans "white' "Abyad" as they are today in Mali and Niger.

And I call BS. Some Tuaregs are Eusasian looking and many more so in the past.

Also in the name of logic, if Berbers were Black like other Africans, then why does Battutta make special mention that the land of the Blacks begins in Mauretania?? If you travel across the Sahara Today you will find that this still pretty much true. Coincidence???

And you forget that whatever the term Batutta used he considered the distinction to be more than just a matter of complexion. As he said White people shouldn't eat the food of Blacks. I'm sure you are are smart enough to understand the impication.

"Among the trees on the road between Walata and Malli, there are some with fruits that resembled plums, apples, apricots, and peaches. Battuta described other edible plants, including the Karité palm and the Baobab fruit, which yielded a sort of flour. Battuta also mentioned the large calabashes that were common to the region.

Travellers in this region needed neither money nor food for their trip. Instead, they carried slabs of salt, glass trinkets [beads] and perfumery, which they traded for their needs. The local blacks had millet porridge, chicken, milk, rice, flour and fonio to trade. Battuta warned that the rice was bad for white men, and wrote that the fonio was better.

"Battuta listed the names of towns downriver on the Niger below Zagha. There was Tunbuktu [Timbuktu], then Kawkaw [Gao], then Muli in the land of the Limuyyun, at the frontier of the kingdom of Malli. Beyond Muli lay Nupe (located in northwestern Nigeria), "one of the biggest cities of the blacks. Their sultan is one of their great sultans. A white cannot go there because they would kill him before he arrived there." "


The context makes it clear they are talking along racial lines. Most of your afrocentic arguments cater to the simple minded. I guess some people can't see how specious and non sequitur many of them are. That's not the case with me.

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melchior7
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And here is something else to consider.

"In Morocco, and north Africa, there is a problem of racism towards Black people. Called “Black Africans,” they are considered descendants of slaves and labeled “hartani”—or “aâzi”. Blacks in Morocco, be they students, migrants, from the South of the Sahara or others, are victims of discrimination...
In Morocco there is a prejudice towards people with darker skin shades. In Morocco and the rest of the Maghreb, Black people have long been subject to different forms of discrimination. To better understand this phenomenon, this reporter met African students, Moroccan citizens and an association.
A different kind of racism
According to Pierre Vermeren, a historian specialized in North African societies, there is a different degree of racism towards the Black Moroccan as against the Black foreigner.

“There are several categories of Blacks in Morocco. The first includes the endogenous Black populations who are directly descended from slaves and are now mixed with the Moroccan population. The second concerns the Black peoples of the South. They are concentrated in oases entirely populated by Black Africans and are yet to mix with Berbers or Arabs. The third includes Africans, mostly Senegalese, who come on pilgrimage to the Medina of Fez. The last category concerns students and migrants—those most affected by racism.”

For the majority of Moroccans, this anti-Black attitude is reflected in their behavior towards Black foreigners who either haven’t integrated with the general population or who aren’t Muslim. The underlying superiority complex dates back to Antiquity. At that time, there were thousands of Black slaves in Morocco. Some were part of the Moroccan military corps and the Civilian Guard, while others fulfilled various tasks given to them during the reign of Ahmed El-Mansour Eddahbi or even that of Moulay Ismail in the 16th and 17th centuries.

But, "slavery was never officially abolished. The French Protectorate at the beginning of the 20th century, simply forbid the act. But the initiative never came from Moroccan society itself,” says the historian while making reference to a book written by Mohammed Ennaji Soldats, esclaves et concubines which, according to him, perfectly illustrates this period.

"It is rare for a Moroccan woman to marry a Black man"

For Nadia, a fifty something year old Moroccan, the problem runs deeper than common racism. “It’s even deeper than that. This attitude is passed down from generation to generation. It is extremely unusual, for example, for a Moroccan woman to marry a Black man, even if he is a Muslim. It’s just not done. The only condition under which this might be ‘tolerated’ would be if the man didn’t have too obvious Black features. People worry about what their family or friends would think. The woman in question is likely to hear her mother or a friend tell her that there are ‘enough good Moroccan men for one not to have to go looking for a Black one.’”

According to Nadia, this attitude is commonplace in Morocco, and everywhere else in the Maghreb. “Even for a man who is usually freer for the fact that he is the one who passes down his name and religion to the children, to marry a ‘woman of color’ is not accepted by his family and friends. And this is even more difficult when a non-Muslim is involved. Mixed marriages are already rare in our culture—so marrying a non-Muslim or a Black Moroccan is simply unacceptable. This applies to my father’s generation, my generation, and also my children’s generation.”

Black in Morocco: The Nightmare of Students and Immigrants

“The most violent forms of racism are towards Black students. At the Cité international universitaire (international students dorms) in Rabat, it is visible. Students coming from all parts of the African continent to further their studies are regrouped amongst themselves, or even isolated. They do not share the same facilities with the ‘white’ Moroccan students. It’s all very communitarian,” says Hervé Baldagai, former Secretary-General of CESAM (Confederation of African Foreign Students in Morocco). “Black people face difficult conditions and regular abuse. We are called ‘bloody Negroes’ in Arabic, asked to leave the country, called ‘AIDS carriers’. We even have stones thrown at us. It’s unbearable. We face administrative difficulties, especially when go for our student permit or scholarships.”
http://www.moroccoboard.com/news/1124-racism-in-morocco

All of this is very bizzare indeed if the Moroccans were all originally Blacks. That is one hell of a monumental turn around of events if I ever seen one.

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Djehuti
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^ Please explain to us Malconent, how the country Morocco got it's name. What is the etymology of the word Morocco??
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:



BTW - repeated posting of Fulani ancestors and the same mulatto wearing a Fulani hairstyle is not going to change the matter.


 -

how can we be sure these are not Turbans? Also the middle figure has a lighter round thingy on top and the woman on the upper left has a small one there. This may be carrying an object because the other women don't have it.

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Djehuti
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^ Does it really matter?! That painting was proven to be a fake period! Also, even the scholars who thought it to be real pointed out that they resemble fulani hairstyle worn by women! Quit with the same stupid strawman your lyingass!
quote:
[qb]Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB]
^ Please explain to us Malcontent, how the country Morocco got it's name. What is the etymology of the word Morocco??

Since the Malcontent refuses to answer my query I'll do it.

The English name "Marocco" originates from Spanish "Marruecos" or the Portuguese "Marrocos", from medieval Latin "Morroch", which referred to the name of the former Almoravid and Almohad capital, Marrakesh.[10] In Persian and Urdu, Morocco is still called "Marrakesh".

From Wiki.

Who are the Almoravid and Almohad people?

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melchior7
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Please explain to us Malconent, how the country Morocco got it's name. What is the etymology of the word Morocco??

From Moro..Mauri.. "mahur" meaning West.
[Big Grin]

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Omo Baba
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quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Please explain to us Malconent, how the country Morocco got it's name. What is the etymology of the word Morocco??

From Moro..Mauri.. "mahur" meaning West.
[Big Grin]

Wow!!!
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melchior7
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Bochart derives the name of the Mauri, or Moors, from Mahur, the West.

"the name which, as at present used, is loosely applied to any native of Morocco, but in its stricter sense only to the townsmen of mixed descent. In this sense it is also used of the Mahommedan townsmen in the other Barbary states.' It has been by some connected with the Hebrew and Phoenician mahur, western." MFIYA.

And in case your wondering, MFIYA derives from MY FOOT IN YO ASS!

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alTakruri
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quote:
Originally posted by melchior7:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Please explain to us Malconent, how the country Morocco got it's name. What is the etymology of the word Morocco??

From Moro..Mauri.. "mahur" meaning West.
[Big Grin]

As our DownYard sistren recently said, no matter how
many times repeated a lie remains what it is, a lie.

I've proven you wrong on this flat out bullshit
etymology before but pushing a blackout agenda
I see you refused to learn from a good schooling.

First of all Morocco derives from Marakesh but
here's the word on Mauretania of which what's
now northern Morocco was a part.

 -

Source:
Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography (1854), MAURETA´NIA

Bottomline, Mauri = blacks per researches of the
Eurocentric white man named William Smith, LLD.

Those of you bamboozled by Melchior's bullshit
should remember that the blind led by the blind
results in both of them laying face flat in a
septic drainage ditch somewhere covered in odure.

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Djehuti
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^ Of course the malcontent is left with no choice but to white-wash the Moors as the epitomical Berbers themselves. [Big Grin]
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melchior7
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Bottomline, Mauri = blacks per researches of the Eurocentric white man named William Smith, LLD.

And we have experts who say the term goes back to the Phoenicians and Carthaginins even Today the we use the related term Mahgreb. Meaning the West.

Bottomline is I say Tomato and you say Tomaahto.

Please tell me why this Berber king Juba II is not depcited as Black?

 -

Here is another North African from Roman times. Kinda looks like Kadaffi.


 -

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the lioness,
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The word Moor is one applied by Europeans meaning "dark skin" is "dark skin" relative to paler Europeans.

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:


 -

Coat of arms of Alcanadre-La Rioja-Spain
Depicting slayed heads of the Moors

Ludovico Sforza, below, (also known as Ludovico il Moro
(1452 – -1508)) was Duke of Milan from 1489 until his death.

"Il Moro" literally means "The Moor", an epithet said to have been given to Ludovico because of his dark complexion.
 -

Ludovico Sforza, a member of the Sforza family, he was the fourth son of Francesco Sforza. He was famed as a patron of Leonardo da Vinci and other artists, and presided over the final and most productive stage of the Milanese Renaissance. He is probably best known as the man who commissioned the The Last Supper.

Ludovico Sforza was born on July 27, 1452, at Vigevano, in what is now Lombardy. He was the fourth son of Francesco I Sforza and Bianca Maria Visconti and, as such, was not expected to become ruler of Milan.

"Il Moro" literally means "The Moor", an epithet said to have been given to Ludovico because of his dark complexion. Some scholars have posited that the name Moro came from Ludovico's coat of arms, which contained the mulberry tree, "mora" in Italian. In modern Italian "moro" is also a synonym for "bruno", the masculine equivalent of "brunette" ("mora" in Italian).


Typical lighter skinned noble:
 -

King Edward


related thread discussing the pitch black versions of Moors:

early art depicting 12th cent The Almohad Dynasty, BERBERS /MOORS

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=005374

.

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melchior7
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Oh yeah Morocco was all Black. Well they must have forgot.

"Contrary to a widely held assumption, black slavery inMorocco is a modern phenomenon (or ancien regime), not aMedieval one. Blacks from the Western Sudan were firstimported in great numbers during the Saadian dynasty (16th
century) to be employed in the sugar industry. Thisindustry collapsed when cheaper sugar from Brazil floodedthe European market. The heyday of slavery in Morocco camelater, in the 17th-18th century. Moulay Ismail (1672-1727)
created a slave army (on the model of the Ottoman
Janissaries) which consisted not only of blacks importedfrom West Africa but of black populations enslaved in-situin Morocco's Saharan oases. This enslavement of felowMuslims was condemned unanimously by jurists, specially those of the Qayrawayyin in Fez, but the sultan was strongenough to ignore the reprimands of his own clergy. This kind of mass slavery in the employ of the state dwindled during the 19th century but its legacy can still be experienced in Morocco today in the following ways:
Several Sufi brotherhoods (namely the Gnawa, the Aisawiyya and the Hamadsha) are directly descended from the blackslave regiments. They are known for their use of music and trance in the treatment of mental disorders (Gnawa music,
often in "fusion", is now a part of the World Beat scene).For the Gnawa especially, descent from slaves is a mark of distinction; they trace their spiritual roots back to Bilal, the Abyssinian slave who won his freedom in Islam and was chosen by the prophet Muhammad to be the one who calls to prayer."
http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h- ica&month=0309&week=c&msg=VgdzCH1TOBy5lYcksIFTAg&user=&pw=


They must've forgot their roots.

"Today, Slavery was never formally abolished. The French protectorate in the early 20th century, had banned the practice. But the initiative never came to Moroccan society itself, "says the historian who refers us to the work of Mohammed Ennaji, soldiers, slaves and concubines, which he illustrates this period.

"It is rare for a Moroccan marries a Black"

For Nadia, a Moroccan woman aged fifty years, it is not simply a racial problem. "It's deeper than that. It is a sentiment that has been perpetuated from generation to generation. It is extremely rare, for example, a Moroccan marries a Black, a Muslim. This does not happen. The only case which is, strictly speaking, 'tolerated' is when the man was not too Negroid features. There are fears the famous 'that will say on' family and / or the environment. The woman will often hear his mother near him or say he is 'good enough Moroccans not to pick up a Black'. "

In the words of Nadia, the feeling is widespread in Morocco, and elsewhere in the Maghreb. "Even for a man who is generally more 'free' as it is he who sends his name and his religion to his children, marry a woman of color is not accepted by his entourage. And it's even harder when he's not one or a non-Muslim. Mixed marriages are already very rare in our culture, then with black non-Moroccan, not Muslims, it is never acceptable. Whether my generation, the generation of my father or my children. "

Being Black in Morocco: a nightmare for students and immigrants"
http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/2491510/1/.

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Djehuti
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^ LOL That depends on how "black". We know that African Americans of a certain complexion especially light ones get mistaken for native Egyptians in Egypt. It's only those that are really dark or very black that are easily spotted as foreigners and subject to discrimination. The same is true in other North African countries like Morocco.

Of course the reason is quite obvious-- because most North Africans especially along the coast are mixed.

Racial political definitions of black are the opposite in Africa, where any light hue makes one non-black.

This typical Moroccan woman for example would be labeled 'black' in America and in much of Europe but not in her country of origin.

 -

Similarly Halle Berry could blend right in with the 'non-black' locals in Morocco.

 -

 -

^ Both women would be considered 'black' in the West including the Moroccan on the right, but the Moroccan would not be considered 'black' in her home country. On the contrary, the darker more pristine black woman on the left would be discriminated against as a foreign 'black' person in Morocco.

Modern Moroccans mixed ancestry is common knowledge to everyone but willful ignoramuses like yourself, but the question is was such the case a thousand years ago or two thousand years ago?? Have you forgotten the very topic of this thread?-- Caucasian Berber tribes? Still waiting for any one before the 16th century

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Djehuti
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By the way...
quote:
Originally posted by the lyinass:


Note: the Libyan's skin is not this color brown
 -

Mummy, Takarkori. Libya
radiocarbon date, about 6,000 years ago

Hey, Lyinass! Didn't we tell you about a dozen times already that you can't expect the skin complexion of a 6,000 year old dried up corpse to look the same as it did when alive??!

I take it you think Tut's mother then must have had a pale gray complexion as well.

 -

And maybe this Danish mummy was also black in life?

 -

*sigh* [Embarrassed] A mind is a terrible thing to waste in your case UCCF (United Caucasian College Fund)

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