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Author Topic: ARE INDIANS BLACKS?
Egmond Codfried
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tHIS THREAD IS INSPIRED BY PARTS OF THIS THREAD:http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=005215

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The Indian as "Black White" and as "Nigger"
By Francis C. Assisi on Indolink, Feb. 1, 2006

There is this essential contradiction in being a South Asian, or a person of Indian origin, in America: on one hand the South Asian is perceived as being black by the majority white population, and on the other the South Asian is eager to be categorized alongside whites, as Caucasians.

Brown on the outside, "white" on the inside, South Asians are mostly perceived in America as being too white to be black, and too black to be white. But with the increase in post 9/11 attacks against South Asians, at least some are being forced to come to grips with the myth that equates Indo-Aryan with Caucasian and with being white.

But for a hundred years South Asians have been harassed, intimidated, assaulted, humiliated, abused, and even killed because of what they represent through their color, their religion, their language, and their culture. And it continues to this day.

Take for example an incident from 1929: as a result of the humiliation that he received from U.S. immigration officials, the poet Rabindranath Tagore was forced to cancel his fourth lecture tour. That incident prompted the Nobel laureate to remark that if Jesus Christ himself were to come to America, he would be kicked out of the country - because he was an Asiatic.

Tagore explained his sentiments later by stating, "I arrived at Los Angeles, and I felt something in the air - a cultivated air of suspicion and general incivility towards Asiatics… I felt that I should not stay in a country on sufferance. It was not a question of personal grievance or of ill-treatment from some particular officer. I felt the insult was directed towards all Asiatics, and I made up my mind to leave a country where there was no welcome for ourselves… I have great regard for your people. But I have also my responsibility towards those whom you classify as colored people of whom I am one. I am a representative of Asiatic peoples and I could not remain in a country where Asiatics are not wanted."

Another Nobel laureate, astrophysicist Dr. S.Chandrashekar of the University of Chicago, confessed to biographer Kameshwar Wali that he was subjected to humiliating experiences in America because of the color of his skin. Chandrashekhar was born in India, educated in England, and lived all his professional life in the U.S until his death in 1991.

In the 1930s Chandrashekar taught, conducted research, and collaborated with the United States War Department on the atomic weapons research project. He became the first nonwhite person to be appointed to the faculty of the University of Chicago. According to Wali, the chairman of the physics department summarily opposed the appointment of Chandrashekhar to the faculty "because he was an Indian, and black". The dean, Henry G. Gale, also did not approve of the participation of the brilliant young Indian astronomer in teaching an elementary course in astronomy for precisely that reason. That objection was not lifted until the president of the university intervened.

Direct evidence of prejudice based on "race" or "color" may be scant. It has become bad taste for sure, to express such feelings openly. In the case of South Asians, moreover, there are so many other grounds, religious and cultural, for overt hostility that feelings about "color" or "race" could easily remain safely submerged. But as far as Euro-Americans are concerned, the skin color of the South Asian serves as a "label of primary potency," psychologist Gordon Allport's term for the most highly visible impression of a person or a people.

In some major respects, American color prejudice indiscriminately embraces everything non-"white." According to Harold Isaacs there are also shades of prejudice as various as the shades of color, and they flicker often according to place, person, and circumstance. And it is "black" - wherever it comes from - that sets the racial-color counters clicking the most violently. The South Asian, shading along a wide spectrum from fair to brown to black, arouses these reactions in varying measures.

For example, President Lyndon Johnson was reported to have said while canceling the visits of the heads of state from India and Pakistan in 1965: "After all, what would Jim Eastland (the conservative senator from Mississippi) say if I brought those two niggers over here." (Quoted in Richard Goodwin, "The War Within," The New York Times Magazine, 21 August 1988, P.3. It was reported that the American President decided to cancel the visits of Prime Minister Lal Bahadur Shastri of India and President Ayub Khan from Pakistan when the two countries expressed opposition to U.S. policies in Vietnam.)

In his path-breaking study of American images of Indians, MIT's Harold Isaacs reported one respondent who confessed: "skin color causes a certain tension in meetings with Indians." Another said explicitly: "in dealing with Indians you feel you're dealing with colored people, the same way you feel in the presence of Negroes…" A third, speaking of people in his circle of friends, said: "The Indian with his darker skin perhaps consciously or unconsciously suggests the Negro in the United States." A college professor in Texas expressed it openly when he declared: "They're just damn Niggers to me!" When the same professor was asked what he thought the American man-in-the-street might mentally associate with Indians, the reply was instantaneous: "Nigger!"

It took someone like Professor Sucheta Mazumder of Duke University to acknowledge that for most South Asian immigrants the myth of their Caucasian racial origin forms the basis of their identity and political mobilization. And that there are those Indians who really think of themselves as more 'white' than the 'whites,' indeed as descendants from that 'pure Aryan family' of prehistoric time.

According to Mazumder, South Asians invariably see themselves as "Aryan" and, therefore, as "Caucasian" and "white". This perception prevents the immigrants from making common cause with other people of color who were barred from citizenship on grounds of color or race. Thus, instead of challenging racism, the early Indian-American struggle for citizenship rights became an individualized and personalized mission to prove that he was of "pure-blood Aryan stock". Though victimized by white racism, which denied them citizenship, the South Asian response was equally racist, observes Mazumder. Instead of challenging the white man's racism, the Indian immigrant responds with "How dare you assume your air of Aryan superiority over me when I am just as Aryan as you, even more so!" This was the substance of the Indian claim in the courts back in the 1920s and it is still the substance of many an Indian response to American racism, asserts Mazumder.

This mythography of "Aryan origins" has wide currency among today's South Asian immigrants in America, says Mazumder, suggesting that this notion of white (Caucasian or Aryan) origin has led to a confused rejection of the color of their own skin.

This leads to an almost paranoid response to even being thought of as black. For example, Bharati Mukherjee, the noted Indian writer, complains: "I am less shocked, less outraged and shaken to my core, by a purse-snatching in New York City in which I lost all of my dowry gold- everything I'd been given by my mother in marriage- than I was by a simple question asked of me in the summer of 1978 by three high-school boys on the Rosedale subway station platform in Toronto. Their question was, 'Why don't you go back to Africa?'"

Meanwhile, one second-generation South Asian-American recalls: My father has said in anger, more than once, that he is black in his coworkers' and boss's eyes.

THE CONSCIOUSNESS OF COLOR

Color in itself is meaningless. Color is just color. It is a physical, spectroscopic fact. It ought to carry no compelling conclusions regarding a person's beliefs or his position in any social structure. It should be like height or weight. Yet, it attracts the mind; it is the focus of passionate sentiments and beliefs.

Sociologists have noted that oftentimes the issue of color in relation to South Asians in America rises in a setting of great mutual self-conscious sensitivity: South Asians watch for it to come up, Americans are embarrassed that it does. Currently, South Asians may not be a clear-cut case of "black" in US consciousness, but they are definitely "other," which is one reason why Mazumder, as well as other intellectuals, believe that only if South Asians develop a broader consciousness of themselves as people of color will they be able to participate in a genuine struggle for social justice.
This consciousness is still in its formative phase, as we witness some second- and third-generation South Asians who are emerging as advocates for peace and social justice alongside people of color in America.

Francis C. Assisi can be reached at indiaspora@gmail.com
http://www.indolink.com/displayArticleS … 605113928`

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PS
Mijn inzien begon de onterechte haternij tussen Afrikaanse Surinamers en Hindostanen pas goed toen Surinaamse politieke leiders, Hindostanen wilden assimileren. De Hindostaanse leiders kwamen in het geweer en gaven de Surinaamse Hindostanen een identiteit en een stem. Wij zien dat deze groep in andere Carabische landen hun hele cultuur kwijt zijn geraakt. Dat vind ik jammer, ook omdat ikzelf niet geassimileerd zou willen worden. Verder staat verdeel en heers ons in de weg, of wij nou in Suriname of Nederland wonen.

Egmond Codfried

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the lioness,
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the thread asks are Indians "Blacks" ?

It's an impossible question to answer because the term "black" means differnt things to different people.

Some Indians have dark skin and have been subjected to prejudice due to it.

Should they be regarded as "black" ?

"Black" is a term that gets imposed on dark skinned people by some light skinned people.
The dark skinned person then is faced with accepting the term or not.
Some may say o.k. I accept the term "black" and hope they can ally with other people that get called "black" as a power base.

Many Indians have dark skin similar to Africans but they also have differences in appearance in many cases.
So in recognizing that many have dark skin do they want to identify with Africans from Africa and people of African ancestry who live in other parts of the world?

There could be an advantage in doing this if it could add to a larger group of people to oppose a group that sometimes oppresses them on the basis of skin color.

However, there are more considerations involved in such alliances because once you make an alliance you have to cooperate and share resources in other areas when you are not actively engaged in countering racism.
So the different groups will weigh the advantages and disadvantages in allying with another group.

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Brada-Anansi
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Lioness some people.. for example some Indians called themselves Blks not based on oppression from lite-skinned folks but on what they think is cool your distaste for folks calling themselves Blks does not change this.. do we have to go over this again??..

"It is a fact that in this country when a child is born they anoint him once a week with oil of sesame, and this makes him grow much darker than when he was born. For I assure you that the darkest man is here the most highly esteemed and considered better than those who are not so dark. Let me add that in very truth these people portray and depict their gods and idols black and their devils white as snow. For they say that God and all the saints are black and the devils are all white..."
Marco Polo.
 -  -  -

First pic from Sri Lanka been there in person have friends there..the rest The Gondi (Gōndi) are a people in central India. The Gondi, or Gond people are spread over the states of Madhya Pradesh, eastern Maharashtra(Vidarbha), Chhattisgarh, northern Andhra Pradesh, and western Orissa. With over four million people, they are the largest tribe in Central India.
http://www.shahamaasi.com/18.html

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
the thread asks are Indians "Blacks" ?

It's an impossible question to answer because the term "black" means differnt things to different people.

Some Indians have dark skin and have been subjected to prejudice due to it.

Should they be regarded as "black" ?

"Black" is a term that gets imposed on dark skinned people by some light skinned people.
The dark skinned person then is faced with accepting the term or not.
Some may say o.k. I accept the term "black" and hope they can ally with other people that get called "black" as a power base.

Many Indians have dark skin similar to Africans but they also have differences in appearance in many cases.
So in recognizing that many have dark skin do they want to identify with Africans from Africa and people of African ancestry who live in other parts of the world?

There could be an advantage in doing this if it could add to a larger group of people to oppose a group that sometimes oppresses them on the basis of skin color.

However, there are more considerations involved in such alliances because once you make an alliance you have to cooperate and share resources in other areas when you are not actively engaged in countering racism.
So the different groups will weigh the advantages and disadvantages in allying with another group.

Either you are trying to be funny or you are a very silly and strange woman. Speak for yourself whatever you are, because you don't speak for any colored person including east Indians. [Big Grin]
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
]Either you are trying to be funny or you are a very silly and strange woman. Speak for yourself whatever you are, because you don't speak for any colored person including east Indians. [Big Grin] [/QB]

obviously you have not understood
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Morpheus
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They are Indian. Dark-skinned Indians are not accepted as White in America. Not even the tan complexioned ones. But most don't identify as Black. Some are even racist against people of African descent. I've read that even Gandhi had racist opinions of Blacks in South Africa.

I knew a man from Trinidad who looked like a dark-skinned Indian (dark brown skin, straight hair and narrow facial features). He considered himself to be a Black man of Indian descent no less Black than a dark-skinned person of African descent.

There is skin color prejudice in India amongst lighter and darker skinned Indians. It's fashionable among many in Indian to use skin lightening products.

I think the safe thing to say is that skin color discrimination is a reality and some people from India experience racism due to skin color. Some people in India are racist based on skin color.

Generally they tend to identify with their culture rather than their skin color.

I no longer have interest in putting people into boxes and labeling them one way or another.

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Brada-Anansi
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Morpheus long time bro!! but check this out back in Marco Polo's time some Indians self Id as Blks,others may not have Id themselves as such..see above quote,yet others in modern times self Id as blacks because of well they are and want to link with the global communities based on similar system of oppression.
http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=pav&action=display&thread=838
clik^ here and check-out the vid of a self Id Black from India addressing the AAs in a lecture.

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Egmond Codfried
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http://files.prokerala.com/movies/pics/1280/shahid-kapoor-in-mausam-mausam-movie-stills-8842.jpg

I was swooning away with Mr. Shahid Kapoors extremely charming looks. He looks like Tom Cruise, but superior. In India he was shown as fair, fair does not mean white, but in Europe he was quite brown. His dark lips forming a perfect heartshape: he was quite as pretty as the leading lady. Indan movies are today much about multi-culturalism, and cosmopolitanism. They played a Mozart piece in this movie, the actress was wearing an 18th century costume.

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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by Morpheus:
They are Indian. Dark-skinned Indians are not accepted as White in America. Not even the tan complexioned ones. But most don't identify as Black. Some are even racist against people of African descent. I've read that even Gandhi had racist opinions of Blacks in South Africa.

I knew a man from Trinidad who looked like a dark-skinned Indian (dark brown skin, straight hair and narrow facial features). He considered himself to be a Black man of Indian descent no less Black than a dark-skinned person of African descent.

There is skin color prejudice in India amongst lighter and darker skinned Indians. It's fashionable among many in Indian to use skin lightening products.

I think the safe thing to say is that skin color discrimination is a reality and some people from India experience racism due to skin color. Some people in India are racist based on skin color.

Generally they tend to identify with their culture rather than their skin color.

I no longer have interest in putting people into boxes and labeling them one way or another.

The preference for lighter skin in India is primarily due to the influence of foreigners. I am not even talking about Aryans. The Greeks were one group, but they weren't that numerous to begin with. But with the Greeks began the history of "modern" India. Most history before that is blurred by myth, fantasy and mystery, with Harrappan civilization still not being fully understood. It was during the Persian era and then the Mughal era that light skin as a symbol of beauty really became predominant. Mughal art almost always shows people with features similar to themselves (IndoPersian and Mongol/Asian). After the Mughals came the British and the white skin preference became even more blatant and it was during British rule that movies and entertainment became standardized according to "British taste", which meant that actors and actresses are all light bright and trying to be white or European looking, Persian looking or sometimes even Asian looking, anything other than the natural dark brown that is predominant in India. And Gandhi was indeed racist in the sense that he didn't want to be lumped with blacks as a 3rd class citizen, but would accept 2nd class status under the British. Indians were often considered as some of the most loyal and trustworthy of the colonized peoples of the British and because of this the British often took them to many of their colonies around the world. This is what led to the rise of Indian populations in the Caribbean, Africa and the Pacific. But they were always used as a buffer, meaning they were always placed above the natives as second class under the British and because of this came a feeling of superiority and resentment from the locals.

Now, some may feel a sense of Aryan superiority in India with their light skin, but the wheels come off the wagon when they go to Europe because no matter how light or "Aryan" they think they are, the British still don't consider them as "one of them" and look down on them because of the history of the British conquest of India. The fact is that British aren't Aryans, as Aryans are in reality populations in and between India and Iran and are not Europeans. But because European scholars trumped up Aryan supremacy as the basis for global European supremacy and based the colonial education system around it, a lot of Indians subscribed to it, not realizing that the British are not Aryans and are simply doing what they always do, making up stuff to justify their rule.

Traces of the Mughal and Persian communities are still found in India with names like "Khan" and features similar to old Mongol and Mughal paintings like joined eyebrows, but those features have absolutely nothing to do with Europe.

The fact is that the whole Aryan supremacy myth created by Europe is an attempt to put the basis of Indian culture in the hands of Europeans, by claiming some close relationship to the lighter skinned peoples of the Indo Iranian plateau, with Europe somehow an ancient homeland of these people. In other words, to turn history upside down. The truth is that Indo Europeans are a population partly derived from Indian, Asian and Aryan Persian stock and it is from this stock that the Indo European languages derive. In Hindi you say "Mera Nam es" in English you say "My name is". Sounds quite similar doesn't it, but of course I am no linguist.

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Those who deny the Aryan invasion of India, need to explain the following:

 -

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by cassiterides:
Those who deny the Aryan invasion of India, need to explain the following:

 -

First of all,

R1b-M412 appears to be the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup in Western Europe (470%), while being virtually absent in the Near East, the Caucasus and West Asia. lol


Second, how did whites became white?


Who is to deny? lol

Most Indians!!!


And Aryans are Iranians. Not Europeans by the way. lol

Demise of the Aryan Invasion Theory


By Dr.Dinesh Agrawal


Aryan Race and Invasion Theory is not a subject of academic interest only, rather it conditions our perception of India's historical evolution, the sources of her ancient glorious heritage, and indigenous socio-economic-political institutions which have been developed over the millennia. Consequently, the validity or invalidity of this theory has an obvious and strong bearing on the contemporary Indian political and social landscape as well as the future of Indian nationalism. The subject matter is as relevant today as it was a hundred years ago when it was cleverly introduced in the school text books by British rulers.


http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/aryan/aryan_agrawal.html

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Doug M
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Not only were the Aryans Iranians, but they were also descended from an even more ancient population of Indian folks who settled in the region. Hence, the strong linguistic ties between populations in Iranian Plateau and Mesopotamia. Old Iranian (pre persian) languages are a branch of the Indo Iranian language family. Of course this is classed as a member of IndoEuropean but the European part of Indo European is a child of IndoIranian not the other way around. And there are still elements of the old IndoIranian folks in the western regions of Iran.
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^ Aryan (Indo-European) homeland was in Anatolia, or the adjacent Black Sea region (e.g. Danube Valley or Balkans).

The Indo-Europeans were racially Nordic, fair haired, long-skulled - a fact preserved in the Rig-Veda and other Indian texts.

The Aryan Gods in the Rig-Veda are described as having white skin and yellow hair, while the ''dasyu'' monsters (modeled on the dark skinned dravidians) are described as brown or black and ugly.

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MelaninKing
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The term "black" imparts a physical state of being which is fundamentally enhanced by the basic sheath of blackness; Melanin.
Those with strong melanin subsystems, be they Indian, Australian, Native American, Asian, can physically be defined as "black".
The further these people dilute themselves by mixing with Albinos, the further they are removing themselves from their Melanin heritage, blackness, and all the superior attributes associated with heavily melaniated people.

--------------------
Melanin King 4Shared Ebook and video depository;
http://www.4shared.com/u/vprmsqkz/1027fc89/melaninking.html

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IronLion
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quote:

^ blah..blah..blah...

The Aryan Gods in the Rig-Veda are described as having white skin and yellow hair, while the ''dasyu'' monsters (modeled on the dark skinned dravidians) are described as brown or black and ugly.

The name Krishna means Black Beauty.

or rather, "Beautiful is black."

Krishna is the head God of the Indians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krishna

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Doug M
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Iran is named after the term Aryan. Aryans
Aryan is a reference to a language family and most of this association with North Central Europe(Andronovo) is largely based on speculation not actual linguistic evidence. Most of the association with Europe has to be put into context as the location of this mythical proto-indo Aryan population is far from western Europe and closer to Asia.

The fact is that the only populations most strongly associated with Indo Aryan languages are those of the Iranian plateau and India. The largest population of IndoAryan speakers is the Hindu population. These people, even the lightest of them, are not nordics in any sense of the term. In fact the home land of these so called proto-aryans is not even in Europe (not by today's standard). It is in the regions now known as Kazakhstan, Siberia and the Central Asian steppe. Again, not the home land of the nordics.

Nordic means northern, from the north, in other words north Eastern Eurasia, around Denmark. That is not the homeland of true Aryans. But again, this is mythology created by Europeans to put themselves into other people's history as the creators as opposed to the inheritors.

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MelaninKing
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Melanin means "Black" mainly because, the substance itself is one of the blackest substances known to man.
Lack of Melanin means Albino, or as relabeled by Europeans; White.

If you adhere to the flawed, racist Albino European interpretation of color, then you will be incorrect and confused on fundamental elements of "true" human physiology.

These are the only true "races" of mankind:

Melanin Mel"a*nin, n. [Gr. me`las, me`lanos, black.]

Albino Al*bi"no (?; 277), n.; pl. Albinos. [Sp. or Pg. albino, orig. whitish, fr. albo white, L. albus.]

Mulatto Mu*lat"to, n.; pl. Mulattoes. [Sp. & Pg. mulato, masc., mulata, fem., of a mixed breed, fr. mulo mule, L. mulus. See Mule.]

The offspring of a Negress by a white man (Albino), or of a white woman (Albino) by a Negro, -- usually of a brownish yellow complexion.
[1913 Webster]


The women Troll Patrol posted above show one woman on the left who is a mulatto, and one on the right who is black.

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Clyde Winters
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The original inhabitants of the Sahara where the Kemetic civilization originated were Blacks not Berbers or Indo-European speakers. These Blacks formerly lived in the highland regions of the Fezzan and Hoggar until after 4000 BC. This ancient homeland of the Dravidians, Egyptians, Sumerians, Niger-Kordofanian-Mande

and Elamite speakers is called the Fertile African Crescent. ( Anselin, 1989, p.16; Winters, 1981,1985b,1991). We call these people the Proto-Saharans (Winters 1985b,1991). The generic term for this group is Kushite. This explains the analogy between the Bafsudraalam languages outlined briefly above. These Proto-Saharans were called Ta-Seti and Tehenu by the Egyptians. Farid (1985,p.82) noted that "We can notice that the beginning of the Neolithic stage in Egypt on the edge of the Western Desert corresponds with the expansion of the Saharian Neolithic cultureand the growth of its population".

The inhabitants of the Fezzan were round headed Africans. (Jelinek, 1985,p.273) The cultural characteristics of the Fezzanese were analogous to C-Group culture items and the people of Ta-Seti . The C-Group people occupied the Sudan and Fezzan regions between 3700-1300 BC (Jelinek 1985).

The inhabitants of Libya were called Tmhw (Temehus). The Temehus were organized into two groups the Thnw (Tehenu) in the North and the Nhsj (Nehesy) in the South. (Diop 1986) A Tehenu
personage is depicted on Amratian period pottery (Farid 1985 ,p. 84). The Tehenu wore pointed beard, phallic-sheath and feathers on their head.

The Temehus are called the C-Group people by archaeologists(Jelinek, 1985; Quellec, 1985). The central Fezzan was a center of C-Group settlement. Quellec (1985, p.373) discussed in detail the presence of C-Group culture traits in the Central Fezzan along with their cattle during the middle of the Third millennium BC.

The Temehus or C-Group people began to settle Kush around 2200 BC. The kings of Kush had their capital at Kerma, in Dongola and a sedentary center on Sai Island. The same pottery found at Kerma is also present in Libya especially the Fezzan.



The C-Group founded the Kerma dynasty of Kush. Diop (1986, p.72) noted that the "earliest substratum of the Libyan population was a black population from the south Sahara". Kerma was first inhabited in the 4th millennium BC (Bonnet 1986). By the 2nd millennium BC Kushites at kerma were already worshippers of Amon/Amun and they used a distinctive black-and-red ware (Bonnet 1986; Winters 1985b,1991). Amon, later became a major god of the Egyptians during the 18th Dynasty.


The linguistic, anthropological and linguistic data make it clear that these people came to India from Africa during the Neolithic and not the Holocene period.

In the sub-continent of India, there were several main groups. The traditional view for the population origins in India suggest that the earliest inhabitants of India were the Negritos, and this was followed by the Proto-Australoid, the Mongoloid and the so-called mediterranean type which represent the ancient Egyptians and Kushites (Clyde A. Winters, "The Proto-Culture of the Dravidians, Manding and Sumerians",Tamil Civilizations 3, no.1(1985), pp.1-9. (http://olmec98.net/Fertile1.pdf ). The the Proto-Dravidians were probably one of the cattle herding groups that made up the C-Group culture of Nubia Kush (K.P. Aravanan, "Physical and Cultural Similarities between Dravidian and African", Journal of Tamil Studies, no.10 (1976, pp.23-27:24. ).

B.B. Lal ("The Only Asian expedition in threatened Nubia:Work by an Indian Mission at Afyeh and Tumas", The Illustrated London Times , 20 April 1963) and Indian Egyptologist has shown conclusively that the Dravidians originated in the Saharan area 5000 years ago. He claims they came from Kush, in the Fertile African Crescent and were related to the C-Group people who founded the Kerma dynasty in the 3rd millennium B.C. (Lal 1963) The Dravidians used a common black-and-red pottery, which spread from Nubia, through modern Ethiopia, Arabia, Iran into India as a result of the Proto-Saharan dispersal.


B.B. Lal (1963) a leading Indian archaeologist in India has observed that the black and red ware (BRW) dating to the Kerma dynasty of Nubia, is related to the Dravidian megalithic pottery. Singh (1982) believes that this pottery radiated from Nubia to India. This pottery along with wavy-line pottery is associated with the Saharo-Sudanese pottery tradition of ancient Africa .


Aravaanan (1980) has written extensively on the African and Dravidian relations. He has illustrated that the Africans and Dravidian share many physical similarities including the dolichocephalic indexes (Aravaanan 1980,pp.62-263; Raceand History.com,2006), platyrrhine nasal index (Aravaanan 1980,pp.25-27), stature (31-32) and blood type (Aravaanan 1980,34-35; RaceandHistory.com,2006). Aravaanan (1980,p.40) also presented much evidence for analogous African and Dravidian cultural features including the chipping of incisor teeth and the use of the lost wax process to make bronze works of arts (Aravaanan 1980,p.41).

There are also similarities between the Dravidian and African religions. For example, both groups held a common interest in the cult of the Serpent and believed in a Supreme God, who lived in a place of peace and tranquility ( Thundy, p.87; J.T. Cornelius,"Are Dravidians Dynastic Egyptians", Trans. of the Archaeological Society of South India 1951-1957, pp.90-117; and U.P. Upadhyaya, "Dravidian and Negro-African", International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics 5, no.1) .

There are also affinities between the names of many gods including Amun/Amma and Murugan . Murugan the Dravidian god of the mountains parallels a common god in East Africa worshipped by 25 ethnic groups called Murungu, the god who resides in the mountains .


There is physical evidence which suggest an African origin for the Dravidians. The Dravidians live in South India. The Dravidian ethnic group includes the Tamil, Kurukh, Malayalam, Kananda (Kanarese), Tulu, Telugu and etc. Some researchers due to the genetic relationship between the Dravidians and Niger-Congo speaking groups they call the Indians the Sudroid (Indo-African) Race(RaceandHistory,2006).

Dravidian languages are predominately spoken in southern India and Sri Lanka. There are around 125 million Dravidian speakers. These languages are genetically related to African languages. The Dravidians are remnants of the ancient Black population who occupied most of ancient Asia and Europe.

Linguistic Evidence

1.1 Many scholars have recognized the linguistic unity of Black African (BA) and Dravidian (Dr.) languages. These affinities are found not only in the modern African languages but also that of ancient Egypt. These scholars have made it clear that lexical, morphological and phonetic unity exist between African languages in West and North Africa as well as the Bantu group.

1.2 K.P. Arvaanan (1976) has noted that there are ten common elements shared by BA languages and the Dr. group. They are (1) simple set of five basic vowels with short-long consonants;(2) vowel harmony; (3) absence of initial clusters of consonants; (4) abundance of geminated consonants; (5) distinction of inclusive and exclusive pronouns in first person plural; (6) absence of degrees of comparison for adjectives and adverbs as distinct morphological categories; (7) consonant alternation on nominal increments noticed by different classes; (8)distinction of completed action among verbal paradigms as against specific tense distinction;(9) two separate sets of paradigms for declarative and negative forms of verbs; and (l0) use of reduplication for emphasis.

1.3 There has been a long development in the recognition of the linguistic unity of African and Dravidian languages. The first scholar to document this fact was the French linguist L. Homburger (1950,1951,1957,1964). Prof. Homburger who is best known for her research into African languages was convinced that the Dravidian languages explained the morphology of the Senegalese group particularly the Serere, Fulani group. She was also convinced that the kinship existed between Kannanda and the Bantu languages, and Telugu and the Mande group. Dr. L. Homburger is credited with the discovery for the first time of phonetic, morphological and lexical parallels between Bantu and Dravidians

1.6 By the 1970's numerous scholars had moved their investigation into links between Dr. and BA languages on into the Senegambia region. Such scholars as Cheikh T. N'Diaye (1972) a Senegalese linguist, and U.P. Upadhyaya (1973) of India , have proved conclusively Dr. Homburger's theory of unity between the Dravidian and the Senegalese languages.

1.7 C.T. N'Diaye, who studied Tamil in India, has identified nearly 500 cognates of Dravidian and the Senegalese languages. Upadhyaya (1973) after field work in Senegal discovered around 509 Dravidian and Senegambian words that show full or slight correspondence.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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The linguistic, anthropological and linguistic data make it clear that these people came to India from Africa during the Neolithic and not the Holocene period.

In the sub-continent of India, there were several main groups. The traditional view for the population origins in India suggest that the earliest inhabitants of India were the Negritos, and this was followed by the Proto-Australoid, the Mongoloid and the so-called mediterranean type which represent the ancient Egyptians and Kushites (Clyde A. Winters, "The Proto-Culture of the Dravidians, Manding and Sumerians",Tamil Civilizations 3, no.1(1985), pp.1-9. (http://olmec98.net/Fertile1.pdf ). The the Proto-Dravidians were probably one of the cattle herding groups that made up the C-Group culture of Nubia Kush (K.P. Aravanan, "Physical and Cultural Similarities between Dravidian and African", Journal of Tamil Studies, no.10
(1976, pp.23-27:24. ).

Genetics as noted by Mait Metspalu et al writing in 2004, in “Most extant mtDNA boundaries in South and Southwest Asia were likely shaped during the initial settlement of Eurasia by anatomically modern humans” http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/5/26

can not tell which group first entered India. Mait Metspalu wrote
_________________________________________________________________
Language families present today in India, such as Indo-European, Dravidic and Austro-Asiatic, are all much younger than the majority of indigenous mtDNA lineages found among the present day speakers at high frequencies. It would make it highly speculative to infer, from the extant mtDNA pools of their speakers, whether one of the listed above linguistically defined group in India should be considered more “autochthonous” than any other in respect of its presence in the subcontinent (p.9).
________________________________________________________________________


B.B. Lal ("The Only Asian expedition in threatened Nubia:Work by an Indian Mission at Afyeh and Tumas", The Illustrated London Times , 20 April 1963) and Indian Egyptologist has shown conclusively that the Dravidians originated in the Saharan area 5000 years ago. He claims they came from Kush, in the Fertile African Crescent and were related to the C-Group people who founded the Kerma dynasty in the 3rd millennium B.C. (Lal 1963) The Dravidians used a common black-and-red pottery, which spread from Nubia, through modern Ethiopia, Arabia, Iran into India as a result of the Proto-Saharan dispersal.


B.B. Lal (1963) a leading Indian archaeologist in India has observed that the black and red ware (BRW) dating to the Kerma dynasty of Nubia, is related to the Dravidian megalithic pottery. Singh (1982) believes that this pottery radiated from Nubia to India. This pottery along with wavy-line pottery is associated with the Saharo-Sudanese pottery tradition of ancient Africa .


Aravaanan (1980) has written extensively on the African and Dravidian relations. He has illustrated that the Africans and Dravidian share many physical similarities including the dolichocephalic indexes (Aravaanan 1980,pp.62-263; Raceand History.com,2006), platyrrhine nasal index (Aravaanan 1980,pp.25-27), stature (31-32) and blood type (Aravaanan 1980,34-35; RaceandHistory.com,2006). Aravaanan (1980,p.40) also presented much evidence for analogous African and Dravidian cultural features including the chipping of incisor teeth and the use of the lost wax process to make bronze works of arts (Aravaanan 1980,p.41).

There are also similarities between the Dravidian and African religions. For example, both groups held a common interest in the cult of the Serpent and believed in a Supreme God, who lived in a place of peace and tranquility ( Thundy, p.87; J.T. Cornelius,"Are Dravidians Dynastic Egyptians", Trans. of the Archaeological Society of South India 1951-1957, pp.90-117; and U.P. Upadhyaya, "Dravidian and Negro-African", International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics 5, no.1
) .

There are also affinities between the names of many gods including Amun/Amma and Murugan . Murugan the Dravidian god of the mountains parallels a common god in East Africa worshipped by 25 ethnic groups called Murungu, the god who resides in the mountains .


There is physical evidence which suggest an African origin for the Dravidians. The Dravidians live in South India. The Dravidian ethnic group includes the Tamil, Kurukh,Malayalam, Kananda (Kanarese), Tulu, Telugu and etc. Some researchers due to the genetic relationship between the Dravidians and Niger-Congo speaking groups they call the Indians the Sudroid (Indo-African) Race (RaceandHistory,2006).

Dravidian languages are predominately spoken in southern India and Sri Lanka. There are around 125 million Dravidian speakers. These languages are genetically related to African languages. The Dravidians are remnants of the ancient Black population who occupied most of ancient Asia and Europe.

Linguistic Evidence

1.1 Many scholars have recognized the linguistic unity of Black African (BA) and Dravidian (Dr.) languages. These affinities are found not only in the modern African languages but also that of ancient Egypt. These scholars have made it clear that lexical, morphological and phonetic unity exist between African languages in West and North Africa as well as the Bantu group.

1.2 K.P. Arvaanan (1976) has noted that there are ten common elements shared by BA languages and the Dr. group. They are (1) simple set of five basic vowels with short-long consonants;(2) vowel harmony; (3) absence of initial clusters of consonants; (4) abundance of geminated consonants; (5) distinction of inclusive and exclusive pronouns in first person plural; (6) absence of degrees of comparison for adjectives and adverbs as distinct morphological categories; (7) consonant alternation on nominal increments noticed by different classes; (8)distinction of completed action among verbal paradigms as against specific tense distinction;(9) two separate sets of paradigms for declarative and negative forms of verbs; and (l0) use of reduplication for emphasis.

1.3 There has been a long development in the recognition of the linguistic unity of African and Dravidian languages. The first scholar to document this fact was the French linguist L. Homburger (1950,1951,1957,1964). Prof. Homburger who is best known for her research into African languages was convinced that the Dravidian languages explained the morphology of the Senegalese group particularly the Serere, Fulani group. She was also convinced that the kinship existed between Kannanda and the Bantu languages, and Telugu and the Mande group. Dr. L. Homburger is credited with the discovery for the first time of phonetic, morphological and lexical parallels between Bantu and Dravidians

1.6 By the 1970's numerous scholars had moved their investigation into links between Dr. and BA languages on into the Senegambia region. Such scholars as Cheikh T. N'Diaye (1972) a Senegalese linguist, and U.P. Upadhyaya (1973) of India , have proved conclusively Dr. Homburger's theory of unity between the Dravidian and the Senegalese languages.

1.7 C.T. N'Diaye, who studied Tamil in India, has identified nearly 500 cognates of Dravidian and the Senegalese languages. Upadhyaya (1973) after field work in Senegal discovered around 509 Dravidian and Senegambian words that show full or slight correspondence.

1.8 As a result of the linguistic evidence the Congolese linguist Th. Obenga suggested that there was an Indo-African group of related languages. To prove this point we will discuss the numerous examples of phonetic, morphological and lexical parallels between the Dravidian group: Tamil (Ta.), Malayalam (Mal.), Kannanda/Kanarese (Ka.), Tulu (Tu.), Kui-Gondi, Telugu (Tel.) and Brahui; and Black African languages: Manding (Man.),Egyptian (E.), and Senegalese (Sn.)
_________________________________________________________________
code:
COMMON INDO-AFRICAN TERMS

ENGLISH DRAVIDIAN SENEGALESE MANDING
MOTHER AMMA AMA,MEEN MA
FATHER APPAN,ABBA AMPA,BAABA BA
PREGNANCY BASARU BIIR BARA
SKIN URI NGURU,GURI GURU
BLOOD NETTARU DERET DYERI
KING MANNAN MAANSA,OMAAD MANSA
GRAND BIIRA BUUR BA
SALIVA TUPPAL TUUDDE TU
CULTIVATE BEY ,MBEY BE
BOAT KULAM GAAL KULU
FEATHER SOOGE SIIGE SI, SIGI
MOUNTAIN KUNRU TUUD KURU
ROCK KALLU XEER KULU
STREAM KOLLI KAL KOLI

6.1 Dravidian and Senegalese. Cheikh T. N'Diaye (1972) and U.P. Upadhyaya (1976) have firmly established the linguistic unity of the Dravidian and Senegalese languages. They present grammatical, morphological, phonetic and lexical parallels to prove their point.

6.2 In the Dravidian and Senegalese languages there is a tendency for the appearance of open syllables and the avoidance of non-identical consonant clusters. Accent is usually found on the initial syllable of a word in both these groups. Upadhyaya (1976) has recognized that there are many medial geminated consonants in Dravidian and Senegalese. Due to their preference for open syllables final consonants are rare in these languages.

6.3 There are numerous parallel participle and abstract noun suffixes in Dravidian and Senegalese. For example, the past participle in Fulani (F) -o, and oowo the agent formative, corresponds to Dravidian -a, -aya, e.g., F. windudo 'written', windoowo 'writer'.

6.4 The Wolof (W) -aay and Dyolo ay , abstract noun formative corresponds to Dravidian ay, W. baax 'good', baaxaay
'goodness'; Dr. apala 'friend', bapalay 'friendship'; Dr. hiri
'big', hirime 'greatness', and nal 'good', nanmay 'goodness'.

6.5 There is also analogy in the Wolof abstract noun formative suffix -it, -itt, and Dravidian ita, ta, e.g., W. dog 'to cut', dogit 'sharpness'; Dr. hari 'to cut', hanita 'sharp-ness'.

6.6 The Dravidian and Senegalese languages use reduplication of the bases to emphasize or modify the sense of the word, e.g., D. fan 'more', fanfan 'very much'; Dr. beega 'quick', beega 'very quick'.


6.7 Dravidian and Senegalese cognates.
code:
English                Senegalese            Dravidian
body W. yaram uru
head D. fuko,xoox kukk
hair W. kawar kavaram 'shoot'
eye D. kil kan, khan
mouth D. butum baayi, vaay
lip W. tun,F. tondu tuti
heart W. xol,S. xoor karalu
pup W. kuti kutti
sheep W. xar 'ram'
cow W. nag naku
hoe W. konki
bronze W. xanjar xancara
blacksmith W. kamara
skin dol tool
mother W. yaay aayi
child D. kunil kunnu, kuuci
ghee o-new ney

Above we provided linguistic examples from many different African Supersets (Families) including the Mande and Niger-Congo groups to prove the analogy between Dravidian and Black African languages. The evidence is clear that the Dravidian and Black African languages should be classed in a family called Indo-African as suggested by Th. Obenga. This data further supports the archaeological evidence accumulated by Dr. B.B Lal (1963) which proved that the Dravidians originated in the Fertile African Crescent.

The major grain exploited by Saharan populations was rice ,the yam and pennisetum. McIntosh and McIntosh (1988) has shown that the principal domesticate in the southern Sahara was bulrush millet. There has been considerable debate concerning the transport of African millets to India. Weber (1998) believes that African millets may have come to India by way of Arabia. Wigboldus (1996) on the other hand argues that African millets may have arrived from Africa via the Indian Ocean in Harappan times.

Both of these theories involve the transport of African millets from a country bordering on the Indian Ocean. Yet, Weber (1998) and Wigboldus (1996) were surprised to discover that African millets and bicolor sorghum , did not reach many East African countries until millennia after they had been exploited as a major subsistence crop at Harappan and Gujarat sites.

This failure to correlate the archaeological evidence of African millets in countries bordering on the Indian Ocean, and the antiquity of African millets in India suggest that African millets such as Pennisetum and Sorghum must have come to India from another part of Africa. To test this hypothesis we will compare Dravidian and African terms for millet.

Winters (1985) has suggested that the Proto-Dravidians formerly lived in the Sahara. This is an interesting theory, because it is in the Sahara that the earliest archaeological pennisetum has been found.

Millet impressions have been found on Mande ceramics from both Karkarchinkat in the Tilemsi Valley of Mali, and Dar Tichitt in Mauritania between 4000 and 3000 BP. (McIntosh & McIntosh 1983a,1988; Winters 1986b; Andah 1981)

Given the archaeological evidence for millets in the Sahara, leads to the corollary theory that if the Dravidians originated in Africa, they would share analogous terms for millet with African groups that formerly lived in the Sahara.
The linguistic and anthropological data make it clear that the Dravidian speaking people were part of the C-Group people who formed the backbone of the Niger-Congo speakers. It indicates that the Dravidians took there red-and-black pottery with them from Africa to India, and the cultivation of millet. The evidence makes it clear that the genetic evidence indicating a Holocene migration to India for the Dravidian speaking people is wrong. The Dravidian people given the evidence for the first cultivation of millet and red-and-black pottery is firmly dated and put these cultural elements in the Neolithic. The evidence makes it clear that genetic evidence can not be used to effectively document historic population movements.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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All Indians are not Black. You may be able to classify the Dravidian and Munda people as Black.


There is mtDNA data uniting Africans and Dravidians.


Can Parallel Mutation and neutral genome selection explain Eastern African M1 consensus HVS-1 motifs in Indian M haplogroup
http://www.bioline.org.br/pdf?hg07022

Did the Dravidian Speakers Originate in Africa
http://academia.edu.documents.s3.amazonaws.com/1773184/PossibleDraOrigin.pdf

Origin and Spread of Dravidian Speakers

http://www.krepublishers.com/02-Journals/IJHG/IJHG-08-0-000-000-2008-Web/IJHG-08-4-317-368-2008-Abst-PDF/IJHG-08-4-325-08-362-Winder-C/IJHG-08-4-325-08-362-Winder-C-Tt.pdf

Sickle Cell Anemia in Africa and India

http://www.ispub.com/journal/the_internet_journal_of_hematology/volume_7_number_1_40/article/sickle-cell-anemia-in-india-and-africa.html


Y-Chromosome evidence of African Origin of Dravidian Agriculture

http://www.academicjournals.org/ijgmb/PDF/pdf2010/Mar/Winters.pdf


The most interesting fact about this evidence is that the Dravidian language is closely related to the Niger-Congo group. There are other linguistic groups that separate the Niger-Congo speakers from the Dravidians. The fact that they are genetically related indicates that the Dravidians recently came to India.

http://arutkural.tripod.com/tolcampus/drav-african.htm

.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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One of the principal groups to use millet in Africa are the Northern Mande speaking people (Winters, 1986). The Norther Mande speakers are divided into the Soninke and Malinke-Bambara groups. Holl (1985,1989) believes that the founders of the Dhar Tichitt site where millet was cultivated in the 2nd millenium B.C., were northern Mande speakers.

To test this theory we will compare Dravidian and Black African agricultural terms, especially Northern Mande. The linguistic evidence suggest that the Proto-Dravidians belonged to an ancient sedentary culture which exitsed in Saharan Africa. We will call the ancestor of this group Paleo-Dravido-Africans.


The Dravidian terms for millet are listed in the Dravidian Etymological Dictionary at 2359, 4300 and 2671. A cursory review of the linguistic examples provided below from the Dravidian, Mande and Wolof languages show a close relationship between these language. These terms are outlined below:
code:
Kol                sonna       ---             ---       ----

Wolof (AF.) suna --- ---- ---

Malinke (AF) suna bara, baga de-n, doro koro

Tamil connal varaga tinai kural

Malayalam colam varaku tina ---

Kannanda --- baraga, baragu tene korale,korle

*sona *baraga *tenä *kora

It is clear that the Dravidian and African terms for millet are very similar. The Proto-Dravidian terms *baraga and *tena have little if any affinity to the African terms for millet.

The Kol term for millet ‘sonna’, is very similar to the terms for millet used by the Wolof ‘suna’ ( a West Atlantic Language), and Mande ‘suna’ (a Mande language). The agreement of these terms in sound structure suggest that these terms may be related.

The sound change of the initial /s/ in the African languages , to the /c/ in Tamil and Malayalam is consistent with the cognate Tamil and Malayalam terms compared by Aranavan(1979 ,1980;) and Winters ( 1981, 1994). Moreover, the difference in the Kol term ‘ soona’,which does retain the complete African form indicates that the development in Tamil and Malayalam of c < s, was a natural evolutionary development in some South Dravidian languages. Moreover, you will also find a similar pattern for other Malinke and Dravidian cognates, e.g., buy: Malinke ‘sa, Tamil cel; and road: Malinke ‘sila’, Tamil ‘caalai’.


African Millets Carried to India by Dravidian Speakers
http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/letters/


.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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Bradaa were these Indians Christians?? Certainly "Gods and the Saints" means Christianity, or Shia Islam. I can't fathom Hindus makng such a claim..I take it the people Marco Polo met were Dalit Christians.

quote:
Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Lioness some people.. for example some Indians called themselves Blks not based on oppression from lite-skinned folks but on what they think is cool your distaste for folks calling themselves Blks does not change this.. do we have to go over this again??..

"It is a fact that in this country when a child is born they anoint him once a week with oil of sesame, and this makes him grow much darker than when he was born. For I assure you that the darkest man is here the most highly esteemed and considered better than those who are not so dark. Let me add that in very truth these people portray and depict their gods and idols black and their devils white as snow. For they say that God and all the saints are black and the devils are all white..."
Marco Polo.
 -  -  -

First pic from Sri Lanka been there in person have friends there..the rest The Gondi (Gōndi) are a people in central India. The Gondi, or Gond people are spread over the states of Madhya Pradesh, eastern Maharashtra(Vidarbha), Chhattisgarh, northern Andhra Pradesh, and western Orissa. With over four million people, they are the largest tribe in Central India.
http://www.shahamaasi.com/18.html


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quote:
Originally posted by cassiterides:
^ Aryan (Indo-European) homeland was in Anatolia, or the adjacent Black Sea region (e.g. Danube Valley or Balkans).

The Indo-Europeans were racially Nordic, fair haired, long-skulled - a fact preserved in the Rig-Veda and other Indian texts.

The Aryan Gods in the Rig-Veda are described as having white skin and yellow hair, while the ''dasyu'' monsters (modeled on the dark skinned dravidians) are described as brown or black and ugly.

I beg to differ. [Smile]

Go to an Indian forum and tell them this. [Big Grin]

See how your white behind will get Booted! [Wink]


Make sure you link that forum/ thread to this thread so we all can enjoy your severe nazi-clown beat down.


REMEMBER: R1b-M412 appears to be the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup in Western Europe (470%), while being virtually absent in the Near East, the Caucasus and West Asia. lol

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quote:
Originally posted by IronLion:
quote:

^ blah..blah..blah...

The Aryan Gods in the Rig-Veda are described as having white skin and yellow hair, while the ''dasyu'' monsters (modeled on the dark skinned dravidians) are described as brown or black and ugly.

The name Krishna means Black Beauty.

or rather, "Beautiful is black."

Krishna is the head God of the Indians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krishna

By PhD. Wesley Muhammad.

Article I Summary:

Black God and the Ancient Mysteries: Or, why is Vishnu Blue?

The religious texts of the ancient East and India, i.e. the hieroglyphic writings of ancient Kemet (Egypt), the cuneiform writings of ancient Sumer (Chaldea/Mesopotamia), and the Sanskrit writings of ancient India, record the history of God as a divine Black man. According to these texts, God was originally a luminous, formless essence hidden within a primordial* substantive darkness called ‘waters’. At some point, this divine luminosity concentrated itself within the darkness and produced the atom or first particle of distinct matter, the ‘golden egg’ of ancient myth*. From this first atom there emerged many atoms, which the God used to build up his own luminous body. This body was anthropomorphic and thus this God was the first man in existence, a self-created man. This was a brilliantly luminous man, represented by the so-called ‘sun-gods’ of ancient myth. Indeed, the sun in the sky was said to be only a sign of the luminous anthropomorphic body of the creator-god.


This God’s initial attempts at creation proved unsuccessful, as the brilliant luminosity of the divine form scorched material creation. As a solution the God veiled his luminosity with a body made from that same primordial dark substance from which he initially emerged. This divine black body refracted the divine light as it passed through the hair pores covering the body. This black body is therefore referred to in later literature as God’s ‘shadow’ as it shades creation from the scorching heat of the ‘sun’ or luminous body of God. As the light passed through the hair pores of this divine black body it produced a dark-blue iridescence or glow. The ancients symbolized this visual effect by the semiprecious stone sapphire or lapis lazuli, which was a dark blue stone with golden speckles throughout. The God’s body at this stage was thus depicted dark blue and said to be made of sapphire/lapis lazuli. Veiled in this (blue-)black body, the God successfully produced the material cosmos. The creator-gods of ancient myth were thus often painted dark blue.

http://www.truthofgodinstitute.com/documents/Truth_of_God_I-encrypt.pdf

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Egmond Codfried
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 -

Dr. S. Chandrashekar

quote:
Another Nobel laureate, astrophysicist Dr. S.Chandrashekar of the University of Chicago, confessed to biographer Kameshwar Wali that he was subjected to humiliating experiences in America because of the color of his skin. Chandrashekhar was born in India, educated in England, and lived all his professional life in the U.S until his death in 1991.

In the 1930s Chandrashekar taught, conducted research, and collaborated with the United States War Department on the atomic weapons research project. He became the first nonwhite person to be appointed to the faculty of the University of Chicago. According to Wali, the chairman of the physics department summarily opposed the appointment of Chandrashekhar to the faculty "because he was an Indian, and black". The dean, Henry G. Gale, also did not approve of the participation of the brilliant young Indian astronomer in teaching an elementary course in astronomy for precisely that reason. That objection was not lifted until the president of the university intervened.


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Egmond Codfried
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cILw5BlRk9I

Mausam trailer


http://3gpsongs.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/john-abraham/840058John-Abraham.jpg

http://www.google.nl/search?q=john+abraham&btnG=Zoeken&um=1&hl=nl&tbm=isch&ei=K0qDTt2KJs3z-gbZ_tW3Dw&sa=N&oq=john+abraham&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=0l0l0l4912l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0ll 0l0

Bollywood actor John Abraham

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Egmond Codfried
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http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&source=hp&q=jesus+was+indian&meta=&oq=jesus+was+indian&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=827l4023l0l4319l16l16l0l3l3l0l218l1871l2.9.2l13l0

Jesus was Indian

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malibudusul
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this actor
is the face of Tom Cruise.

This should be a plagiarism of "top gun"

Racism in India is
strong as in Brazil.
In Brazil in the novels only have white players.

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xyyman
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Ha! Ha! Ha!. Leave it to this uneducated fool to get it wrong.
1. Aryan (Indo-European) homeland was in Anatolia – WRONG!!
2. The Indo-Europeans were racially Nordic – WRONG
3. long-skulled – WRONG!!

This ass is a really stupid!!! Where does he get is BS????


quote:
Originally posted by cassiterides:
^ Aryan (Indo-European) homeland was in Anatolia, or the adjacent Black Sea region (e.g. Danube Valley or Balkans).

The Indo-Europeans were racially Nordic, fair haired, long-skulled - a fact preserved in the Rig-Veda and other Indian texts.

The Aryan Gods in the Rig-Veda are described as having white skin and yellow hair, while the ''dasyu'' monsters (modeled on the dark skinned dravidians) are described as brown or black and ugly.


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malibudusul
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Michael Jackson was indian
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malibudusul
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Michael Jackson was indian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2k3gE9ibso

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Egmond Codfried:
http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&source=hp&q=jesus+was+indian&meta=&oq=jesus+was+indian&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=827l4023l0l4319l16l16l0l3l3l0l218l1871l2.9.2l13l0

Jesus was Indian

Sir, this is not how you represent a case. This is far from acedemia.


It makes you look foolish.


And it's also an insulte to the posters here on our intellect. Do you think we go for stupidity, without thinking or verifying?

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Lioness some people.. for example some Indians called themselves Blks not based on oppression from lite-skinned folks but on what they think is cool your distaste for folks calling themselves Blks does not change this.. do we have to go over this again??..

"It is a fact that in this country when a child is born they anoint him once a week with oil of sesame, and this makes him grow much darker than when he was born. For I assure you that the darkest man is here the most highly esteemed and considered better than those who are not so dark. Let me add that in very truth these people portray and depict their gods and idols black and their devils white as snow. For they say that God and all the saints are black and the devils are all white..."
Marco Polo.

There is a difference between people who say their skin is brown from them saying they are "blacks" ("browns" being more accurate) as an identity.

Also the term "black" as it is used by average people America does not just mean a person of dark skin. As average people and the media and U.S. census use this term it is meant dark skin person of African descent .

Darker skinned Indian people in America sometimes experience racism based on their skin color but do they identify themselves as "black people" ? Don't ask me ask an Indian person.
Also when there is a grocery store run by a dark skin Pakistani person would the average "black" person ("brown" more accurate) say the this person was black?

Also, historically, Africans did not categorize themselves by skin color, similarly Chinese and other Asians living today do not identify themsleves as a color. They might describe the complexion of their skin but they don't identify themselves as a category named by a color.

Of course "black" and "white" are not accurate skin color terms.
Why is "black" even used when most people are "browns" anyway?

So are Indians black white or mulatto?


This question assume that these categories "black" "white" and "mulatto" are valid and are a three color method of categorizing people that people have always subscribed to.

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the lioness is a guy IRL
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
The Indo-Europeans were racially Nordic – WRONG

So why are all Gods of Indo-European myths described as blonde/red haired and white?

Why were all Indo-European kings, nobles etc also blonde?

Name a civilization - and i'll give you the ancient literature evidence.

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Indian:

 -

Black African:

 -

Both are not the same race.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by cassiterides:
Indian:

 -

Black African:

 -

Both are not the same race.

Most Africans don't look like the woman from South Sudan. But what does your dumb white arse know?


Just the other minute you showed this picture.


You are a hilarious stupid meth addict.

 -


What you Garrig, apparently still don't get is that you are not important and don't decide who's black or not. And all that pussy farting you're doing.


Get it through your thick dumb skull. Africans are most diverse.



 -
 -
 -
 -

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Ish Geber
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REMEMBER: R1b-M412 appears to be the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup in Western Europe (470%), while being virtually absent in the Near East, the Caucasus and West Asia. lol


REMEMBER: R1b-M412 appears to be the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup in Western Europe (470%), while being virtually absent in the Near East, the Caucasus and West Asia. lol


REMEMBER: R1b-M412 appears to be the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup in Western Europe (470%), while being virtually absent in the Near East, the Caucasus and West Asia. lol


REMEMBER: R1b-M412 appears to be the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup in Western Europe (470%), while being virtually absent in the Near East, the Caucasus and West Asia. lol


REMEMBER: R1b-M412 appears to be the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup in Western Europe (470%), while being virtually absent in the Near East, the Caucasus and West Asia. lol


REMEMBER: R1b-M412 appears to be the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup in Western Europe (470%), while being virtually absent in the Near East, the Caucasus and West Asia. lol


quote:
Originally posted by cassiterides:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
The Indo-Europeans were racially Nordic – WRONG

So why are all Gods of Indo-European myths described as blonde/red haired and white?

Why were all Indo-European kings, nobles etc also blonde?

Name a civilization - and i'll give you the ancient literature evidence.

Stop your idiocy.

I told you to go to an Indian forum, and tell them this. So they can boot you in your dumb nazi ass. And have a good laugh.

Propel your text in ancient sancrit. And make sure you link the thread/ forum to this forum.


REMEMBER: R1b-M412 appears to be the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup in Western Europe (470%), while being virtually absent in the Near East, the Caucasus and West Asia. lol


REMEMBER: R1b-M412 appears to be the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup in Western Europe (470%), while being virtually absent in the Near East, the Caucasus and West Asia. lol


REMEMBER: R1b-M412 appears to be the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup in Western Europe (470%), while being virtually absent in the Near East, the Caucasus and West Asia. lol


REMEMBER: R1b-M412 appears to be the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup in Western Europe (470%), while being virtually absent in the Near East, the Caucasus and West Asia. lol


REMEMBER: R1b-M412 appears to be the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup in Western Europe (470%), while being virtually absent in the Near East, the Caucasus and West Asia. lol


It's a myth, got it.

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Africans are most diverse
=====

And look at the photo you pasted - all are dark haired and dark eyed.

True diversity only exists in Caucasoids who have all hair and eye shades.

Are you aware before Europeans colonised Sub-Sahara Africa, blacks didn't know what red or blonde hair was?

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by cassiterides:
Africans are most diverse
=====

And look at the photo you pasted - all are dark haired and dark eyed.

True diversity only exists in Caucasoids who have all hair and eye shades.

Are you aware before Europeans colonised Sub-Sahara Africa, blacks didn't know what red or blonde hair was?

 -


You are too dumb to understand physical anthropology and the genotypes or even genetics.


I showed women similar in looks, but of different complexion with a purpose, dumbass.

The two (three) Indian women you showed also have dark hair and dark eyes. [Big Grin] [Cool]


Damn you're dumb. [Smile]

Are you aware, that you're yapping nonsense out of your arse?

Whe have shown you traits and studies, on how to and why these traits do exist in Africa.

But you lack logic to comprehend all this. It is simply put too complex for you to grasp. So you're looking for excuses.


REMEMBER: R1b-M412 appears to be the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup in Western Europe (470%), while being virtually absent in the Near East, the Caucasus and West Asia. Stop confusing mythology with reality. lol

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Whe have shown you traits and studies, on how to and why these traits do exist in Africa.

But you lack logic to comprehend all this. It is simply put too complex for you to grasp. So you're looking for excuses.
=======

According to the anthropological and genetic evidence East Africans cluster closer to Eurasians than Negroids.

This is why Somalis have straight hair and thinner noses.

Negroids (pure-blooded) don't have these features. But since virtually every negroid is a self-hater they can never admit this and it just goes round and round in circles.

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A quote from your fellow afrocentric buddy mike:

quote:
Originally posted by Mike111:

THE "ONE" THING THEY ALL HAVE IN COMMON, IS THAT THEY ARE ALL "HIGHLY" MELANINATED!


What they Don't "NORMALLY" have: EXCEPT in the case of Albinism.

Pale skin.

Red, Blond, Hair.

Blue, Green, Violet, Gray, Eyes.

Note how mike admits pale skin, red and blonde hair and light eyes don't appear in Blacks. He claims they are all mutations from albinos.

But these features are what make the white race the most phenotypically unique and special, it seperates us from the non-white races who are all dark haired and dark eyed.

Blacks don't have red or blonde hair or light eye shades. Your typical black is wooly haired, fat lipped, wide nosed and dark eyed. Blacks however hate these features which is why black woman spend money on green or light eye contacts so they can have light eyes like white woman.

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MelaninKing
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These are the only true "races" of mankind:

Melanin Mel"a*nin, n. [Gr. me`las, me`lanos, black.]

Albino Al*bi"no (?; 277), n.; pl. Albinos. [Sp. or Pg. albino, orig. whitish, fr. albo white, L. albus.]

Mulatto Mu*lat"to, n.; pl. Mulattoes. [Sp. & Pg. mulato, masc., mulata, fem., of a mixed breed, fr. mulo mule, L. mulus. See Mule.]

--------------------
Melanin King 4Shared Ebook and video depository;
http://www.4shared.com/u/vprmsqkz/1027fc89/melaninking.html

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Red hair occurs on approximately 1–2% of the human population. It occurs most frequently (2–6%) in people of northern or western European ancestry, and less frequently in other populations.

Who are the ''other'' populations?

(a) Ashkenazi Jews (who have European genes).
(b) Berbers (who are Caucasoid).
(c) Middle-easteners (such as modern Iranians who are of partial Aryan extraction).
(d) Island of Hirado, Japan (Ainu).

Red hair appears most high in white north-western europeans, the highest among around 10-13% of Scottish people. It is also found among other Caucasoids, but not non-white races apart from the Ainu.

But since you are claiming redhaired negroids now exist, where are blacks who look like this then?:

 -

Where are blacks with hair like this?

Stop the self-hate, its so sad reading that you can't even agree with what your race looks like...

 -

No wonder...

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by cassiterides:
Whe have shown you traits and studies, on how to and why these traits do exist in Africa.

But you lack logic to comprehend all this. It is simply put too complex for you to grasp. So you're looking for excuses.
=======

According to the anthropological and genetic evidence East Africans cluster closer to Eurasians than Negroids.

This is why Somalis have straight hair and thinner noses.

Negroids (pure-blooded) don't have these features. But since virtually every negroid is a self-hater they can never admit this and it just goes round and round in circles.

Really, are you really that stupid? lol

You keep babbling about Somalis as if your life depends on it.

I wonder do you actually know where East Africa is?

The traits you see like a thin nose small lips, thin hair are originally from East Africans, which by the way also can be found in West Africa as was shown to your dumb ass already. These East Africans migrated out of Africa to populate the world in several streams. This is why you have these traits not the other way around. You got them from African populations. This too was already shown to your dumb arse.


According to the anthropological and genetic evidence East Africans cluster closer to other Africans, and are also "Negroids", meaning black. This is why all Africans have the same basal clade.


This is why your classic Greeks and Romans spoke of Moors Ethiopians....

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by cassiterides:
Red hair occurs on approximately 1–2% of the human population. It occurs most frequently (2–6%) in people of northern or western European ancestry, and less frequently in other populations.

Who are the ''other'' populations?

(a) Ashkenazi Jews (who have European genes).
(b) Berbers (who are Caucasoid).
(c) Middle-easteners (such as modern Iranians who are of partial Aryan extraction).
(d) Island of Hirado, Japan (Ainu).

Red hair appears most high in white north-western europeans, the highest among around 10-13% of Scottish people. It is also found among other Caucasoids, but not non-white races apart from the Ainu.

But since you are claiming redhaired negroids now exist, where are blacks who look like this then?:

 -

Where are blacks with hair like this?

Stop the self-hate, its so sad reading that you can't even agree with what your race looks like...

 -

No wonder...

This post by you shows, how dumb you actually are.

You can't out and in a critical point.

So you spam with the thread with stupidity and nonsense. Of some overweight person.


Pathetic individual you are. I truly pity you.


Has your arse already been torn apart at the Indian forum. Claiming mythology as facts? [Big Grin]

Link it, so I can have a good laugh too.


Plus, you have seen the images of Africans with red hair. Like it or not. It doesn't matter.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by cassiterides:
A quote from your fellow afrocentric buddy mike:

quote:
Originally posted by Mike111:

THE "ONE" THING THEY ALL HAVE IN COMMON, IS THAT THEY ARE ALL "HIGHLY" MELANINATED!


What they Don't "NORMALLY" have: EXCEPT in the case of Albinism.

Pale skin.

Red, Blond, Hair.

Blue, Green, Violet, Gray, Eyes.

Note how mike admits pale skin, red and blonde hair and light eyes don't appear in Blacks. He claims they are all mutations from albinos.

But these features are what make the white race the most phenotypically unique and special, it seperates us from the non-white races who are all dark haired and dark eyed.

Blacks don't have red or blonde hair or light eye shades. Your typical black is wooly haired, fat lipped, wide nosed and dark eyed. Blacks however hate these features which is why black woman spend money on green or light eye contacts so they can have light eyes like white woman.

First off all, do you actually know what the word mutation means? lol


And yes they are mutations.....plus I don't know what you keep ranting and raving about hating features? It's you who hates it and has a problem with it. Although you have seen different many times by now. lol

Blacks/ Africans differ in phenotype and genotype more than anyone else. Face it nazi boy.


 -


1. The act or process of being altered or changed.
2. An alteration or change, as in nature, form, or quality.
3. Genetics
a. A change of the DNA sequence within a gene or chromosome of an organism resulting in the creation of a new character or trait not found in the parental type.
b. The process by which such a change occurs in a chromosome, either through an alteration in the nucleotide sequence of the DNA coding for a gene or through a change in the physical arrangement of a chromosome.
c. A mutant.


Now it's up to you to explain what the conditions are to cause these mutations you keep parading with, while you wave your pompons..

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KING
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cassiterides

Here is some advice Cassi, Listen to what Troll Patrol is telling you.

The reason why East Africans like Ethiopians and Somalis are closer to Euros, is not because of there Features. It's because ALL People descend from East Africans.

Non Africans, are an subset of EA and In turn are linked with Ethiopians and Somalis. This does not mean that EA are not linked with the rest of Africa, far from it.

The PN2 clade links All Africans in the continent together. E1b1a and E1b1b are siblings that unites Light and Dark Africans as one family.

Hence the reason why many people claim that Africans are Thee most Diverse people in the World. There is more Diversity in an village in Africa, then the rest of the world combined.

Narrow Features and Wavy Hair does not make an EA less African, it just links people outside Africa, to Africans. Common Origin from the Creator.

Stop with the racist attacks and let Troll Patrol teach you truth.

Peace

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Has your arse already been torn apart at the Indian forum. Claiming mythology as facts?
========

THE “ARYAN COLOR” – THE RIG VEDA

The Rig Veda praises the god who "destroyed the Dasyans and protected the Aryan colour." - Rg.V. III 34.9

It then goes on to thank the god who "bestowed on his white friends the fields, bestowed the sun, bestowed the waters." - Rg.V. I 100.18

RIG VEDA DESCRIBES ARYAN GODS AS BLONDS

Indra - X 23.4 - "With him too is this rain of his that comes like herds: Indra throws drops of moisture on his yellow beard. When the sweet juice is shed he seeks the pleasant place, and stirs the worshipper as wind disturbs the wood."

Indra - 10.96.8 - "At the swift draught the Soma-drinker waxed in might, the Iron One with yellow beard and yellow hair. He, Lord of Tawny Coursers, Lord of fleet-foot Mares, will bear his Bay Steeds safely over all distress."

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^^^

Racial Affinities of Prehistoric East Africans

W.W. Howells' study of world craniometric variation is especially relevant to the racial affinity of East Africans before the expansion of Negroids into the region. Howells studied some 2,500+ skulls from 28 populations of recent Homo sapiens based on 57 metric variables [1], including skulls from the Teita tribe of East Africa. These recent Teita tribesmen (and women) clustered with other Sub-Saharan Africans, indicating that (as is obvious) recent Kenyans belong primarily to the Negroid race.

Howells then studied prehistoric East Africans and other humans from around the world to determine whether or not they show any affinities with living races [2]. He did this to examine whether the morphological complexes of modern races can be discerned in remote times. Using the same multivariate approach he studied the Elmenteita, Nakuru and Willey's Kopje skulls from Kenya. His conclusion was that there is no racial continuity between recent Negroid East African skulls and these prehistoric remains, as the following passage illustrates ([2, p. 41]:

(...) The DISPOP [Dienekes: DISPOP is Howells' program] results here are not indicative of anything, except a general non-African nature for all these skulls. Display of POPKIN distances (infra) reinforces this and seems to find nearer neighbors among such more generalized populations as Peru, Guam, or Ainu, but also Europeans or even Easter Island.

Remembering that the Teita series (Bantu speakers of southeastern Kenya), and the recent East African skulls in table 4 above, do clearly exhibit African affiliations, it is fair to say, contra Rightmire, that there seems to be no clear continuity here in late prehistory. On the broad scale, looking at an "Out-of-Africa" scenario, one would expect that, in some region between southern and northeastern Africa, some differentiation would have been taking place within a Homo sapiens stock, evolving into something beginning to approximate later Sub-Saharan peoples on the one hand, and evolving in another direction on the other hand. East Africa would be a likely locale for appearance of the latter. So anyone is welcome to argue that this is what Elmenteita et al. are manifesting. The ensuing picture for East Africa, that is to say, would later have beeen changed through replacement by the expansion of Bantu or other "Negroid" tribes.

[1] Howells WW (1989) Skull shapes and the map: craniometric analyses in the dispersion of modern Homo. Peabody Museum Papers 79:1-189.
[2] Howells WW (1995) Who's Who in skulls: ethnic identification of crania from measurements. Peabody Museum Papers 82:1-108.


=====

Prehistoric East Africans were not Negroid.

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Well Lioness, I'm an Indian and I know of no Indian that considers him/herself to be black as in someone of African descent. I also don't know of any Indian that is delusional enough to think of him/herself as white. I'm sure someone will point to a some Indian friend that thinks otherwise but, by and large, Indians don't think of themselves of recent African descent.

However, most Indians do sympathize with the plight of African Americans and I believe the Indian community voted for Obama at the rate of 90%.

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