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Originally posted by melchior7:

Yeah I'll be sure to call my local Library and see if they can put those books on hold..

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Originally posted by melchior7:
.Um excuse me. But how the hell can you tell who is of Berber origns in a city like Algiers where people have been Arabized for several hundered years and mixed with who knows what?? Obviously you don't know as much about North Africa as you think you do.

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Originally posted by melchior7:
Yeah well most North Africans now identify as Arabs. Go figure.

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Originally posted by melchior7:
Culture and langauge go hand in hand. The Arabs were small in number but they managed to convert many of the tribes to Islam. These tribes and clans managed to remain intact. But the Arabs dominated the urban centers and then Turks. To this day the Berber culture and langauge survives outside the cities.

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Once again you are not answering my question. You claim the Urbanized Berbers who speak Latin or Arabic etc are not really Berbers so then why quote Ibn Bhutatta, why post your mosaics?? You have not answered this question, just off topic babble..

You get no argument from me about Rural Berbers, esp the Saharan Berbers whom Darker than the Coastal Berbers.

quote:

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Originally posted by melchior7:
Easy, this was before the Vandals, Arabs etc. North Africans still dominated in the Roman provinces(compared to actual Roamns) Though some may have been mixed with Romans, we are a bit closer to what the original Berbers would have looked like, n'est ce pas? As opposed to looking for Berbers in cities today, where we have a mixture of Vandals, Arabs, Turks, Jews, Europans and Sub Saharan slaves.

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quote:

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Originally posted by melchior7:
No, the Majority of Berbers were never in the cities. That's why I question this notion that they absorbed so many White slaves. That's like a German immigrant coming to the states only to end up living among an Indian tribe, speaking Navajo!

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Originally posted by melchior7:
Yeah it was because it was taken over by The Byzantines which was actually part of the Eastern Roman Empire. They held on to North Africa and Egypt until Islamic invasions. If I remember right, the Byzantines may have moved into to Tunis area before Rome fell.

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quote:

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Originally posted by melchior7:
Oh so they are not Black? So then how was Septimus a mulatto? I AM a Mulatto btw.

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I don't think Septimius came from the Tribe that Juba did, I think he was a Moor not a Numidian.

This is what I picture the Numidians looking like..





Also, I do know you are a Mulatto, I remember this from topix.

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Originally posted by melchior7:
You didn't, I thought you held that Numidians were Black.

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quote:

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Originally posted by melchior7:
Why would it hurt me? I would believe it if it could be proven without a doubt. But you are talking about something incredible, a major population replacement! I'm not sure if you realize the magnitude of this. But yeah North Africans mixed with Europeans often do take after the North African side though sometimes not. I lived in France and have seen this. I really don't want to have to go looking for pictures of mixed North Africans etc.

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quote:

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Originally posted by melchior7:
It would be interesting if you could show a current North African culture that has that kind of hairstyle. But seriously I am intereted in that figurine of the Mauri. Where did you find it, and can you post more?

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quote:

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Originally posted by melchior7:
Ok, that can make sense. But we know that there were a lot of Black slaves brought into Morocco, especially under crazy ass Moulay Ismail.

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Originally posted by melchior7:
I think that applies to to the males. I'm sure there were many offspring through the females. And how did they become racist?

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Originally posted by melchior7:
But remember historical records show that the Berbers moved southward during the Arab invasions. I already argue this point with the Explorer on another thread. This means there origins were not from these areas. And who lived in thses areas before the Berbers migrated there???...Blacks. And if they look Black Today is it really surprising?

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quote:

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Originally posted by melchior7:
Also I believed you mentioned somewhere else that the Tuaregs orginate with the Garamantes which I agree with. Now Herodutus says there were two different groups.

"Herodotus in his “the Histories” described two types of northern Africans: the light skinned Garamentes of northern Libya and the dark-skinned, “Trogdolyte Ethiopians” in the southern Fezzan and northeast Africa"

Now I will be honest. I have heard many say that the Tuaregs were orignally light skiined and you can see they do have some mixture. But i also know that there was a Black culture deep in the Fezzan were a Black mummy was found...earlier than any Egyptian mummy. This area is generally associated with Tuaregs. So maybe they are a fusion of two differnt peoples.

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The Taureg are still lightskinned as compared to other Africans, and the Garamantes were described as Athipies meaning blacks.

Here is something interesting from Snowden..

http://books.google.com/books?id=KWHMc-jNzlwC&pg=PA9&dq=ethiopians+garamantes&hl



I think the Taureg still resemble how the Garamantians looked. Some are Dark most are light skinned.

How would you classify someone like this according to Classical standards..

http://www.frenchcreoles.com/@ARM775~Young-Berber-Girl-Posters.jpg

http://www.transafrika.org/media/Nordafrika/berber07.jpg

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTiVNDIqY2W_OKhHzKFrIAUYiZrKbuyAZyfbxS1n9v6uwW4Ugne73GxBU2KJQ

again I think they would have had darker folks like they do today.

Posts: 8812 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by melchior7:

In the third and fourth centuries A.D., this southward migration was intensified by the arrival of Berber groups from the north who were searching for pasturage or fleeing political anarchy and war. The wide-ranging activities of these turbulent Berber warriors were made possible by the introduction of the camel to the Sahara in this period. This first wave of Berber invaders subjugated and made vassals of those Bafour who did not flee south. Other Berber groups followed in the seventh and eighth centuries, themselves fleeing in large numbers before the Arab conquerors of the Maghrib."

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You are asking to me research this when you likely already have the answers.

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You miss the point. The only way you can have people so light is if they have married among themselves. Intermediate? Are you now implying that North Tamazight groups are inherently lighter? Actaully the indiginous Of Mauretania are mostly Black.

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The light skinned Folks who maintain their distinct pehenotype claim that they are descendants of the Moors and Arabs.

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Well then there you go. They are admitting that they have "mixed" heritage, which could very well speak to skin tones.

Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by melchior7:
Yeah well most North Africans now identify as Arabs. Go figure.

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Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:

Arab and the Arab identity is by and large a Language group. People who speak Arabic and worship an Arab religion see themselves as Arabs. Which is why you have people like the Janjaweed and other SSA claiming to Arabs. Which is why you had President Sedat claiming to Arab, and why Arabs were upset that an English speaking AA with no Arab blood played Sedat.(anyone in the West that claims Sedat did not look "Black" is delusional, but again in Arab society one drop of Arab blood makes one Bidan and thus Arab. the Pole opposite of the west).

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Posts: 22249 | From: Omni | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Doug M:
Still waiting for citations putting the origin of Berber tongues in the mouths an cultures of Rome, Spain, Greece or Turkey, ie any part of Eurasia. And on top of that, citations for the Eurasian populations that introduced those tongues to Africa. Barring that, no degree of mixture in North Africa is proof of the Eurasian origin of Berber language and culture. Berber language and culture is simply an extension of Afroasiatic adapted to a pastoral nomadic lifestyle in the desert and scrubland of Northern Africa. That pastoral nomadic lifestyle developed purely within Africa as a result of thousands of years of fluctuations in the wet/dry phases of the Sahara. Those are fully attested and documented facts along with the movements of Africa blacks from the South, West, East and North of the Sahara. Hence, no need for "Eurasians" to introduce African culture to Africans.

And it is funny that the OP has still not found any actual pictures from the time of the berbers in the Almoravid and Almohad armies from the 12th century AD.

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Alfonso X of the next is the closet thing we have.
If Berber originated in African does not mean that it was not developed by migrants. I said "if". The Proto Berber spilt may have been as recent as 3,000 years. Some of the migrants may have setteled into previously unihabited areas in the Atlas and therefore be the first people in some areas, therefore indigenous in that sense.
The earliest written records in rhe region are Punic.


Almohad Caliphate

The dynasty originated with Ibn Tumart, a member of the Masmuda, a Berber tribe of the Atlas Mountains of Morocco. Ibn Tumart was the son of a lamplighter in a mosque and had been noted for his piety from his youth. In his early life, he performed the hajj to Mecca, whence he was expelled on account of his severe strictures on the laxity of others, and thence wandered to Baghdad, where he attached himself to the school of the orthodox doctor al-Ash'ari.
Al-Andalus followed the fate of Africa. Between 1146 and 1173, the Almohads gradually brought the various principalities under Almoravid rule under their control. The Almohads transferred the capital to from Cordoba to Seville, a step followed by the founding of the great mosque, the tower of which, The Giralda, they erected in 1184 to mark the accession of Abu Yusuf Ya'qub al-Mansur.

List of Almohad caliphs (1121–1269)

Ibn Tumart 1121–1130
Abd al-Mu'min 1130–1163
Abu Ya'qub Yusuf I 1163–1184
Abu Yusuf Ya'qub al-Mansur 1184–1199
Muhammad an-Nasir 1199–1213
Abu Ya'qub Yusuf II 1213–1224
Abd al-Wahid I 1224
Abdallah al-Adil 1224–1227
Yahya 1227–1235
Idris I 1227–1232
Abdul-Wahid II 1232–1242
Ali 1242–1248
Umar 1248–1266
Idris II 1266–1269

almohad architecture








_____________________________________________________

By 698 the Arabs had conquered most of North Africa from the Byzantines. The area was divided into three provinces: Egypt with its governor at al-Fustat, Ifrikquiya with its governor at Kairouan, and the Maghreb (modern Morocco and Mauritania) with its governor at Fes.
Musa bin Nusair, a successful Yemeni general in the campaign, was made governor of Ifrikquiya and given the responsibility of putting down a renewed Berber rebellion and converting the population to Islam. Musa and his two sons prevailed over the rebels and enslaved 300,000 captives. The caliph's portion was 60,000 of the captives. These the caliph sold into slavery, the proceeds from their sale going into the public treasury. Another 30,000 captives were pressed into military service.

Posts: 43045 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by melchior7:
What evidence does the author(s) cite for the fleeing of the "Bafours"?

And let me get this straight: Some "Berbers" decided to stick it out in the coastal north and fight the intruding Arabs, but the ancestors of "Moors" and the Kel Tamasheq, who are known to be effective warriors, decided to flee?

The Kel Tamasheq were one of the people the Europeans feared in West Africa, by some European accounts themselves of the time, when the Europeans had their eyes set on colonizing African lands. Did you know that?

Furthermore, your source suggests that the "Berbers" were willing to face the Bafours in armed conflict, having access to camels, but not have the guts to face invading Arabs?

By making this sort of argument, do you realize that you are saying "Berbers" of the coastal north, who would have otherwise been sedentary before the Arab invasions, moved southward and became the nomads of the Sahel and Sahara for the remainder of their existence?

Where would the coastal Berbers flee to? They have Atlas mountains to the south. Those who were already on the edges of the Sahara migrated South. But if you do not agree with this version of events then when do you think the Berbers migrated South?

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So would many of the Moors who invaded Spain have been folks on the light side of pigmentation as well?

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Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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I believe so some early sources mention that some of the bafor were very light. "It emerges from archaeolgical excavations and oral trraditions that in certain parts of the Western Sahara alongside the nomad population, there were also groups of agriculturalists whose descendants have survived to the present day. According to some portuguese sources they belonged to two groups. The white agriculturalists were known as the Baffor or Abofur (in local traditions Bafur) and the black agriculturalists as the Barbar (Barbara, Barabir, Barbaraos) who were related to the Soninke." Africa from the seventh to the eleventh century by Ivan Hrbek

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Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

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quote:

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Originally posted by melchior7:
Were they?

I believe so some early sources mention that some of the bafor were very light.

"It emerges from archaeolgical excavations and oral trraditions that in certain parts of the Western Sahara alongside the nomad population, there were also groups of agriculturalists whose descendants have survived to the present day. According to some portuguese sources they belonged to two groups. The white agriculturalists were known as the Baffor or Abofur (in local traditions Bafur) and the black agriculturalists as the Barbar (Barbara, Barabir, Barbaraos) who were related to the Soninke."
Africa from the seventh to the eleventh century by Ivan Hrbek

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Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

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Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
We know what's going on we told you from three pages ago, no one here was making a case for Black only Moors,it's your insistence in trying to remove

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wrong, Doug and dana DO argue the Moors and Berbers were exclusively "black"

whatever black means exactly (anything you want it to basically)

notice my question about the half million descendants of Carthage has her lips sealed

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Carthaginian descendants - do you mean the Vandal ones?

Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by melchior7:
Were they?

I believe so some early sources mention that some of the bafor were very light.

"It emerges from archaeolgical excavations and oral trraditions that in certain parts of the Western Sahara alongside the nomad population, there were also groups of agriculturalists whose descendants have survived to the present day. According to some portuguese sources they belonged to two groups. The white agriculturalists were known as the Baffor or Abofur (in local traditions Bafur) and the black agriculturalists as the Barbar (Barbara, Barabir, Barbaraos) who were related to the Soninke."
Africa from the seventh to the eleventh century by Ivan Hrbek

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Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by melchior7:
Melchior if you knew that before hand then why did you spend much bandwidth trying to make the dark-skinned Moors out to be slaves.

I don't say they were all slaves. My point is that majority of Moors who invaded Spain weren't Blacks.

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Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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quote:

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Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Melchior if you knew that before hand then why did you spend much bandwidth trying to make the dark-skinned Moors out to be slaves.

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I believe so some early sources mention that some of the bafor were very light. "It emerges from archaeolgical excavations and oral trraditions that in certain parts of the Western Sahara alongside the nomad population, there were also groups of agriculturalists whose descendants have survived to the present day. According to some portuguese sources they belonged to two groups. The white agriculturalists were known as the Baffor or Abofur (in local traditions Bafur) and the black agriculturalists as the Barbar (Barbara, Barabir, Barbaraos) who were related to the Soninke." Africa from the seventh to the eleventh century by Ivan Hrbek

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Posts: 22249 | From: Omni | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by melchior7:


And Khaldun likened North Africans compexion to people in Spain.

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Posts: 22249 | From: Omni | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by melchior7:
Of course the Zenata, Masmuda, Kitama, Sanhaja were the majority of the Moors who invaded Spain. The "Moorish Arabs" or Arabians were the other blacks who invaded Spain.

What?? So the Arabs were all Blacks too??? Do people on here really believe this woman?

Moors, Berbers, Nubians, Egyptians, Indi, Habesh, Arabians were all the same color ranging from copper brown to deep black and were once the same populations. At one time or another all were considered of "Ethiopian" origin.

Oh ok. So how did the Arabians get their current Eurasian/Semitic traits?? Was that the result of fcuking one million White slaves too?

And Khaldun likened North Africans compexion to people in Spain.

"The human inhabitants of these zones are more temperate in their bodies, color, character qualities... Such are the inhabitants of the Maghrib, of Syria, the two 'Iraqs, Western India, and China, as well as of Spain; also the European Christians nearby, the Galicians, and all those who live together with these peoples or near them in the three temperate zones."

No where to run and no where to hide.

Don't need to, cuz all your Black Moorish Arabians, Zenata, Sanhaja whatever storming Spain is just a figment of your imagination. Me, I live in the real world.

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Funny you should mention Ibn Khaldun who apparently wasn't specifically talking about Berbers in the above paragraph.

Here is what he writes about the explanation given by most people in his day of why Berbers in WERE BLACK, “Ham, having become black because of a curse pronounced against him by his father, fled to the Maghrib to hide in shame.... Berber, son of Kesloudjim [Casluhim], one of his descendants, left numerous posterity in the Maghrib” (Smith, 2003, Smith, R. (2003). “What happened to the ancient Libyans? Chasing sources
across the Sahara from Herodotus to Ibn Khaldun,” Journal of World History 14:4, page 482.

Nice try though.

Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by melchior7:
How many times do i have to mention what white means in Africa.

White Africans refers to people like the Haratin, Fulani, along with Tuareg, Hassan, Trarza Moor,etc. Some Somali still calls them white men in Africa just as certain Chinese texts refer to the white faces of Somalis.

Did you not read that it was the Portuguse who called them White??? Did they defer to your African definitions too.

Adn as far as I'm concerned your claims are mostly bunk. Ibn Batutta was a Berber who defintely looked caucasian.



When he went to Africa and talked about where the land of the Blacks began and White men shouldn't eat certain African foods, that was clearly a racial reference and there is very little you can do, to spin or lie your way around it.

Stop spreading lies about Africans.

The Almohad dynasty was founded by the Masmuda still mostly dark brown in color and the Sanhaja still mostly dark brown in color though the smith castes among this group is blacker. All of the castes of the Sanhaja were teh bulk of the Almuhade and AlMurabid'un dynasties.

If you notice when ever you see pictures of these Black masmuda they often look like West Africans which they have asorbed. And though some are still light with straight or wavy hair which reveals their original Eurasian phenotype.



There were no other Berber people involved but these people whom the Spaniards called black - as witnessed in Primera Cronica where Nugaymath the Tuareg leader of the Almoravid seige of Valencia "star of the Targiyat (Tuareg) archers" and her followers are called black Amazons.

The Almoravids brought Blacks from Senegal and Mali.

"Yusef had crossed over into al-Andalus and also achieved victory at the Battle of az-Zallaqah, also known as the Battle of Sagrajas in the west. He came to al-Andalus with a force of 15,000 men, armed with javelins, daggers, most of his soldiers carried two swords, shields, cuirass of the finest leather and animal hide, as well as drummers for psychological combat. Yusef's cavalry was said to have included 6,000 shock troops from Senegal mounted on white Arabian horses."

See it's all documented. Blacks were from Sub Sahara and most were not Berbers,

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THe Lamtuna were the modern Kel Aulamidden Tuareg of NIGER. Those were the Almoravids whether or not they brought other blacks with them or not. And whether you like it or not.

You are talking about Yusef the Tuareg who is either of noble or vassal stock. Tuareg are what they are and if you want to think of them as not East African in origin that is your prerogative.
Yes, Yusef - a dark brown skinned kinky haired African went with 15,000 of HIS PEOPLE and other black Africans into Andalusia.

Now you can tell me which tribe Battuta was from.

Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by melchior7:
Of course the Zenata, Masmuda, Kitama, Sanhaja were the majority of the Moors who invaded Spain. The "Moorish Arabs" or Arabians were the other blacks who invaded Spain.

What?? So the Arabs were all Blacks too??? Do people on here really believe this woman?

[

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Umm... no - all the Arabs aren't blacks. Only some of them - including the remnants of the original ones, just like they and the Syrians said they were.



If you want me to post descriptions of ALL the original Arabians - again - before Arabia was "inundated by foreigners" - I will.

Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

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Originally posted by melchior7:
How many times do i have to mention what white means in Africa.

White Africans refers to people like the Haratin, Fulani, along with Tuareg, Hassan, Trarza Moor,etc. Some Somali still calls them white men in Africa just as certain Chinese texts refer to the white faces of Somalis.

Did you not read that it was the Portuguse who called them White??? Did they defer to your African definitions too.

Adn as far as I'm concerned your claims are mostly bunk. Ibn Batutta was a Berber who defintely looked caucasian.



When he went to Africa and talked about where the land of the Blacks began and White men shouldn't eat certain African foods, that was clearly a racial reference and there is very little you can do, to spin or lie your way around it.

Stop spreading lies about Africans.

The Almohad dynasty was founded by the Masmuda still mostly dark brown in color and the Sanhaja still mostly dark brown in color though the smith castes among this group is blacker. All of the castes of the Sanhaja were teh bulk of the Almuhade and AlMurabid'un dynasties.

If you notice when ever you see pictures of these Black masmuda they often look like West Africans which they have asorbed. And though some are still light with straight or wavy hair which reveals their original Eurasian phenotype.



There were no other Berber people involved but these people whom the Spaniards called black - as witnessed in Primera Cronica where Nugaymath the Tuareg leader of the Almoravid seige of Valencia "star of the Targiyat (Tuareg) archers" and her followers are called black Amazons.

The Almoravids brought Blacks from Senegal and Mali.

"Yusef had crossed over into al-Andalus and also achieved victory at the Battle of az-Zallaqah, also known as the Battle of Sagrajas in the west. He came to al-Andalus with a force of 15,000 men, armed with javelins, daggers, most of his soldiers carried two swords, shields, cuirass of the finest leather and animal hide, as well as drummers for psychological combat. Yusef's cavalry was said to have included 6,000 shock troops from Senegal mounted on white Arabian horses."

See it's all documented. Blacks were from Sub Sahara and most were not Berbers,

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THe Lamtuna were the modern Kel Aulamidden Tuareg of NIGER. Those were the Almoravids whether or not they brought other blacks with them or not. And whether you like it or not.

You are talking about Yusef the Tuareg who is either of noble or vassal stock. Tuareg are what they are and if you want to think of them as not East African in origin that is your prerogative.
Yes, Yusef - a dark brown skinned kinky haired African went with 15,000 of HIS PEOPLE and other black Africans into Andalusia.

Now you can tell me which tribe Battuta was from.

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Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

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Originally posted by melchior7:
How many times do i have to mention what white means in Africa.

White Africans refers to people like the Haratin, Fulani, along with Tuareg, Hassan, Trarza Moor,etc. Some Somali still calls them white men in Africa just as certain Chinese texts refer to the white faces of Somalis.

Did you not read that it was the Portuguse who called them White??? Did they defer to your African definitions too.

Adn as far as I'm concerned your claims are mostly bunk. Ibn Batutta was a Berber who defintely looked caucasian.



When he went to Africa and talked about where the land of the Blacks began and White men shouldn't eat certain African foods, that was clearly a racial reference and there is very little you can do, to spin or lie your way around it.

Stop spreading lies about Africans.

The Almohad dynasty was founded by the Masmuda still mostly dark brown in color and the Sanhaja still mostly dark brown in color though the smith castes among this group is blacker. All of the castes of the Sanhaja were teh bulk of the Almuhade and AlMurabid'un dynasties.

If you notice when ever you see pictures of these Black masmuda they often look like West Africans which they have asorbed. And though some are still light with straight or wavy hair which reveals their original Eurasian phenotype.



There were no other Berber people involved but these people whom the Spaniards called black - as witnessed in Primera Cronica where Nugaymath the Tuareg leader of the Almoravid seige of Valencia "star of the Targiyat (Tuareg) archers" and her followers are called black Amazons.

The Almoravids brought Blacks from Senegal and Mali.

"Yusef had crossed over into al-Andalus and also achieved victory at the Battle of az-Zallaqah, also known as the Battle of Sagrajas in the west. He came to al-Andalus with a force of 15,000 men, armed with javelins, daggers, most of his soldiers carried two swords, shields, cuirass of the finest leather and animal hide, as well as drummers for psychological combat. Yusef's cavalry was said to have included 6,000 shock troops from Senegal mounted on white Arabian horses."

See it's all documented. Blacks were from Sub Sahara and most were not Berbers,

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THe Lamtuna were the modern Kel Aulamidden Tuareg of NIGER. Those were the Almoravids whether or not they brought other blacks with them or not. And whether you like it or not.

You are talking about Yusef the Tuareg who is either of noble or vassal stock. Tuareg are what they are and if you want to think of them as not East African in origin that is your prerogative.
Yes, Yusef - a dark brown skinned kinky haired African went with 15,000 of HIS PEOPLE and other black Africans into Andalusia.

Now you can tell me which tribe Battuta was from.

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I forgot to mention that true islamic peoples other than Central Asians (TurkoPersians) never would have represented themselves in human form. it was against Islam. I doubt the many so-called depictions of Ibn Battuta were even done by people who saw him. I have seen many on line depictions none of which look alike.lol!

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Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

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Originally posted by malibudusul:
This is Hebrews not muslim!

see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmlsfrx41xo&list=UU9iub0kprywQo3YjfFACNmw&index=31&feature=plcp

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THE OLDER FLAG OF MORROCO (used by Muslims)


http://www.tingismagazine.com/review.php?reviewid=45

Fabric of Our Identity
By: Anouar Majid

Not long ago, I came across a thought-provoking article by Jamal Boudouma about the history of Morocco’s flag and our national hymn. If you go back to Issue No. 262 of the Moroccan weekly TelQuel, you will find out that it was General Lyautey who, through a dahir (royal decree) promulgated on November 17, 1917, gave the Moroccan flag the shape and colors with which we are now familiar. TelQuel doesn’t mention that the French added a mini tricolore on the upper left corner to indicate who were the actual rulers of the country at the time, but this detail is not the point of the article. The point is to show that prior to this period, the Moroccan flag sported not the five-pointed star (pentagram), but the Star of David (the hexagram known in Arabic as Khatam Suleyman and in Judaism as the Seal of Solomon). Morocco’s Semitic heritage, which it shares with Jews, was acknowledged on the most visible symbol of the nation, until French colonialists thought differently.

I consulted a major study of the flags of Islam and discovered that according to an old Spanish manuscript, a flag used in Morocco between the 11th and 13th centuries consisted of a white and black chessboard inside an all-red flag. It was an interesting compromise, indicating the various poles of commitment within the Andalusian-Moroccan sphere, with white referring to the Umayyads, black to the Abbasids, and red to the Fatimids, a Shiite group. By the 18th century, according to the political scientist and vexillologist Pierre C. Lux-Wurm, the black element had disappeared. (Vexillology, from the Latin vexillum, which, in Roman times, designated the standard of the army, is the study of flags.) The flag on a shipwrecked Moroccan ship displayed a red flag with two crossed white swords. By the 20th century, the Moroccan flag appeared with two gold-rimmed interlaced squares. Meanwhile, Abdelkrim Khattabi used a red flag with the white upper left part containing a crescent, while the red flag of the ephemeral Republic of Rif featured a white lozenge containing a crescent and the Star of David. The Star of David, in fact, was used in the Spanish zone of influence until 1956.

Reading more on the Seal of Solomon, or, as it later became known among the Ashkenazi Jews, the Star of David, one finds mutual influences in usage of this symbol among Jews and Muslims, as both sought to associate themselves with the legacy of the wise king Solomon (Shlomo, in Hebrew, which, as in Arabic, is associated with the term shalom, or peace), son of the other biblical figure, King David. Interestingly, it was the Alawite monarch, Sultan Moulay Suleyman (popularly known as Moulay Slimane in Morocco) who used the Seal of Solomon on the newly minted bronze coins in the late 18th century to add to the standard coin metals in the Islamic world--gold and silver--and, at the same time, protect the new money with the magical powers of his ancient namesake.

Moulay Suleyman Sultanate, bronze coin

Posts: 43045 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by malibudusul:
but you
not explained
why the harp is
written in
Hebrew.

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O que estamos vendo aqui é um homem tocando uma harpa.
As cordas da harpa são realizadas pela ponte da harpa, um pedaço de madeira atravessando. No outro lado da ponte vemos as extremidades pequenas das cordas de suspensão para fora frouxamente. Bem parecido com letras hebraicas, mas eles não são letras hebraicas.
O narrador do vídeo quer estes mouros muçulmanos de serem judeus. Mas eles não são judeus.
Olhe para as duas últimas seqüências da esquerda. Eles ficam fora um pouco sobre o corpo do harpa. Estes não são cartas pintadas sobre o instrumento. Eles são apenas cadeias


What we are seeing here is a man playing a harp.
The harp strings are held by the bridge of the harp, a crossing piece of wood. On the other side of the bridge we see the small ends of the strings hanging out loosely. They look similar to Hebrew letters but they aren't Hebrew letters.
The narrator of the video wants these Muslim Moors to be Jews. But they aren't jews.
Look at the last two strings of the left. They hang off a little bit over the harp's body. These are not letters painted on the instrument. They are only strings

Posts: 43045 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by malibudusul:
Então
prove que
estas não são letras
do alfabeto hebraico.

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Posts: 43045 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

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Originally posted by malibudusul:
Então
prove que
estas não são letras
do alfabeto hebraico.

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levar 20 peças curtas de corda. Jogá-los no chão.
Você provavelmente encontrará algumas letras hebraicas e algumas letras de outras línguas diferentes.
Você pode encontrar a letra "C" em Inglês ou um "U".
Em seguida, perguntar-me a provar que não é a letra "C".

Você ganha é a letra "C"
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parar de ser bobo, as cordas da harpa são realizadas por uma peça transversal e as extremidades dos fios são soltos sair do outro lado. Mas as pessoas preferem fantasiar e inventar histórias de que gostam. É besteira.

Enviar um enail a judaica ou um erudito árabe eles lhe dirão aqueles que não são cadeias de letras.
Então, o que se acidentalmente corresponde a uma letra hebraica,
absurdo

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Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by typeZeiss:
your mind is mush. You typing something doesn't make it true. Proof i.e. from someone educated would help. Or if someone who knows Hebrew fluently can look and see if it actually says anything or not, that's how you prove it. You just typing dribble doesn't add anything of any real significance.

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The burden of proof is on the person who claims that strings on a harp are supposed Hebrew letters (and doesn't even have a word claimed)
It's ridiculous, you can even see a couple of the strings danging off the end of the instrument.
The shapes are repeated anyway like nonsense, like this
LLLLL CCCCCC
end the retardation, thanks
Look up an ancient Hebrew expert, send an email
If you want to waste your time and mine

Here is the other item in the video:



The ornate soundhole of an Oud misconstrued as a Star of David.
(there are many variations and the painting is damaged)
Irrelevant anyway becasue I have already shown the use of the Seal of Solomon six pointed star sometimes by Muslims in earlier periods

Posts: 43045 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

---

Originally posted by typeZeiss:
your mind is mush. You typing something doesn't make it true. Proof i.e. from someone educated would help. Or if someone who knows Hebrew fluently can look and see if it actually says anything or not, that's how you prove it. You just typing dribble doesn't add anything of any real significance.

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The burden of proof is on the person who claims that strings on a harp are supposed Hebrew letters (and doesn't even have a word claimed)
It's ridiculous, you can even see a couple of the strings danging off the end of the instrument.
The shapes are repeated anyway like nonsense, like this
LLLLL CCCCCC
end the retardation, thanks
Look up an ancient Hebrew expert, send an email
If you want to waste your time and mine

Here is the other item in the video:



The ornate soundhole of an Oud misconstrued as a Star of David.
(there are many variations and the painting is damaged)
Irrelevant anyway becasue I have already shown the use of the Seal of Solomon six pointed star sometimes by Muslims in earlier periods

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Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness:

quote:

---

Originally posted by typeZeiss:
your mind is mush. You typing something doesn't make it true. Proof i.e. from someone educated would help. Or if someone who knows Hebrew fluently can look and see if it actually says anything or not, that's how you prove it. You just typing dribble doesn't add anything of any real significance.

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The burden of proof is on the person who claims that strings on a harp are supposed Hebrew letters (and doesn't even have a word claimed)
It's ridiculous, you can even see a couple of the strings danging off the end of the instrument.
The shapes are repeated anyway like nonsense, like this
LLLLL CCCCCC
end the retardation, thanks
Look up an ancient Hebrew expert, send an email
If you want to waste your time and mine

Here is the other item in the video:



The ornate soundhole of an Oud misconstrued as a Star of David.
(there are many variations and the painting is damaged)
Irrelevant anyway becasue I have already shown the use of the Seal of Solomon six pointed star sometimes by Muslims in earlier periods

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Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Doug M:
[QB] Note also this later depiction of blacks fighting against Christians in the Monastery of Santa María de Valbuena in Spain (Valledolid)


http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Valladolid_monasterio_Valbuena_36_iglesia_pintura_gotica_lou.jpg

A better image:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/paulayjesus/7614102504/in/set-72157631311804322/

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1st picture, detail


larger 2nd picture, detail



I don't know why you would call a picture in heavy shadow "better" than one that is not in heavy shadow.

Clearly in the heavily shadowed 2nd picture we can see both dark skinned individauls and lighter skinned individuals.
How can you call this a depiction of blacks? At best the lighter skinned individuals are of unknown ethnicity.

It looks similar to the multi ethnic combination in this 13th century piece from Alfonso X

_________________________________________mourus________________

Posts: 43045 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by mena7:
How can European writers stated that the Moors were white when so many Spanish paintings and Church murals depicted them as black and metis.

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ZENAGA (SANHAJA, SENAJER) , a Berber tribe of southern Morocco who gave their name to Senegal, once their tribal home . They formed one of the tribes which, uniting under the leadership of Yusef bin Tashfin, crossed the Sahara and gave a dynasty to Morocco and Spain, namely, that of the Almoravides (q.v.) . The Zeirid dynasty which supplanted the Fatimites in the Maghrib and founded the city of Algiers was also of Zenaga origin . The Zenaga dialect of Berber is spoken in southern Morocco and on the banks of the lower Senegal, largely by the negro population .

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Posts: 22249 | From: Omni | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged |