El-Najjar and McWilliams (1978:74) describe the Caucasoid face as a "hatchet face" due to the fact that the face aligns vertically in the sagittal plane. There is little or no prognathism exhibited, because Caucasoids have an orthognathic face with little protrusion in the dental region of the skull (Bass 1995:88).
The malar bones (zygomatic bones) retreat in the Caucasoid skull which can make the skull appear somewhat "pointed" (Ubelaker 1989: 119). In the nasal region, Caucasoids possess a rather large and sharp nasal sill (Bass 1995:88). EI-Najjar and McWilliams (1978:74) describe the Caucasoid nasal root depression as well-marked, and mention that the "...superior ends of the nasal bones often seem to disappear beneath an overhanging projection at glabella". Gill (1986:148-149) refers to the Caucasoid nose as narrow with a long, straight nasal spine and large nasal bones.
Ubelaker (1989:119) describes the Caucasoid palate as narrow and triangular, as does Gill (1986:150) who also mentions that the palatine suture has sharp angles close to, but not on, the midline. El-Najjar and McWilliams (1978:74) and Gill (1986:149) both describe the Caucasoid orbital form as rounded. Gill (1986:151) discusses the mastoid form and its use in identifying race from a skull, and states that the Caucasoid mastoid process is narrower, and more pointed than Negroid or Mongoloid mastoid processes. According to Lahr (1996:47), metopism "...is by definition the abnormal persistence of the mediofrontal suture into adulthood", and Lahr states that metopism can occur in Caucasoid, Negroid and Mongoloid skulls, but it is most commonly found in Caucasoid skulls.
Negroid Face
According Negroid faces to Bass (1995:92), are renowned for exhibiting prognathism, facial prognathism, is pronounced in Negroid skulls (Gill 1986:149). The nasal form is broad, the nasal bones are medium/small and heavy, the nasal profile is straight or concave and the nasal spine is somewhat reduced (Gill 1986: 148-149). Ubelaker (1989:119) describes the Negroid palate as wide, and rectangular in shape. When discussing the use of the mastoid form in determining race from a skull, Gill (1986:150-151) states that "...the very oblique angle of the Negroid mastoid with its characteristically small tubercle along the inferior border constitutes the most distinctive of the mastoid forms".
Post (1969) conducted a study comparing the size of the external opening of the tear duct, or nasolachrymal canal, between American Negroids and Caucasoids. Post (1969:85) concluded that American Negroids possessed shorter nasolachrymal canals.
Mongoloid Face
Bass (1995:92) describes the Mongoloid face as flat, due to the extreme projection of the malar bones. Bass mentions that not only do the zygomatic bones protrude forward, but they also project inferiorly, below the inferior border of the maxilla. Mongoloid faces exhibit medium prognathism, but it is not as extreme as it is in Negroid skulls (El- Najjar & McWilliams 1978:75). El- Najjar and McWilliams (1978:75) describe the Mongoloid orbital form as triangular.
Mongoloid nose form is medium, with small nasal bones and a concave nasal profile. The nasal spine and nasal sill are described as medium (Gill 1986:149). Ubelaker (1989:119) mentions that the Mongoloid nasal aperture tends to have a pointed lower margin, and Bass (1995:92) notes that Mongoloid skulls exhibit a nasal overgrowth. "The nasal bones project forward beyond their junction with the frontal portion of the maxilla" (Bass 1995:92). Gill (1986: 151) describes the Mongoloid mastoid process as wide and vertical, and mentions that there is some similarity between the shape of Mongoloid and Caucasoid mastoid processes.
Racial Difference in Mandible
Shultz argues that a Negroid mandible has a "...lower, wider, and more vertical ramus; greater corpal and dental arch length, i.e., a long U-shaped dental arch; relatively smaller breadth dimensions; a less dominant chin, i.e., mental tubercles more medial in position and smaller" (Shultz in Krogman & Iscan 1986:280).
In contrast, a Caucasoid mandible "...has larger breadth measures; a higher, narrower ramus; a greater gonial angle; ramal surfaces more parallel to the median sagittal plane; (and) a more protrusive chin with mental tubercles more lateral in position" (Krogman & Iscan 1986:279).
Gill (1986:149) also notes racial variations in the mandible, and describes a Negroid mandible as gracile, with an oblique gonial angle. It has a reduced chin projection, a median chin form and "...an undulating mandibular border, (and) a narrow posterior aspect to the horizontal mandibular ramus" (Gill 1986:149-150). A Caucasoid mandible exhibits a medium degree of robusticity, with prominent chin projection and a bilateral chin form. A Mongoloid mandible is robust, similar to a Negroid mandible, with moderate chin projection and a median chin form (Gill 1986:149).
Ubelaker (1989:119) has made the observation that the anterior alveolus in a Negroid mandible is quite projecting in comparison with Caucasoid and Mongoloid mandibles. This is due to the pronounced prognathism.
Racial Differences in Teeth
It has lonh been observed that Caucasoids have the smallest (microdont) teeth (Coon, 1962: 354). According to Ubelaker (1989:120), evidence suggests that "...maxillary lateral incisors of diminished size and variable form are more common among whites, such as peg-shaped forms and miniature versions of normal teeth".
Gill (1986:149-150) describes the Caucasoid parabolic palate as triangular, and states that the reduced prognathism seen in Caucasoid skulls is due to consistent dental crowding.
Krogman and Iscan (1986:369) describe Caucasoid dental roots as shorter, straighter, and less splayed than Negroid or Mongoloid dental roots.
One major feature of Mongoloid dentition is an edge-to-edge bite that occurs when the mandible and maxilla are occluded. The incisor teeth will occlude edge-to-edge without showing the overbite that is commonly found in Caucasoid dentition. Occlusal wear on the incisors will usually indicate a Mongoloid skull (Bass 1995:92).
The one dental trait that can be said to be diagnostic of Mongoloid dentition is shovel-shaped incisors. Shovel-shaped incisors have "...prominent marginal ridges on the lingual surface, giving them a "shovel-shaped" appearance" (Ubelaker 1989: 120). This occurs with a high frequency in Mongoloidpopulations. According to Eckert (1997:308), shovel-shaped incisors occur in 85-99% of Mongoloid dentitions.
Sources
Bass, William M. 1995. Human Osteology: A Laboratory and Field Manual. Columbia: Missouri Archaeological Society, Inc.
Coon, Origin of Races. 1962.
Eckert, William G. 1997. Introduction to Forensic Science. United States of America: CRC Press, Inc.
EI-Najjar, Mahmoud Y. and K Richard McWilliams 1978. Forensic Anthropology: The Structure, Morphology and Variation of Human Bone and Dentition. Illinois: Charles C. Thomas.
Gill, George W. 1998. "Craniofacial Criteria in the Skeletal Attribution of Race. " In Forensic Osteology: Advances in the Identification of Human Remains. (2nd edition) Reichs, Kathleen l(ed.), pp.293- 315.
Gill, George W. 1986. "Craniofacial Criteria in Forensic Identification." In Forensic Osteology: Advances in the identification of Human Remains. Reichs, KI(ed.). pp. 143- 159. Springfield: Charles C.
Krogman, Wilton Marion and Mehmet Yascar Iscan 1986. The Human Skeleton in Forensic Medicine. Springfield: Charles C.Thomas.
Lahr, Marta Mirazon 1996. The Evolution of Modern Human Diversity: A Study of Cranial Variation. Britain: University Press, Cambridge. Thomas.
Post, Richard H. 1969. Tear Duet Size Differences of Age, Sex and Race. American Journal of Physical Anthropology. 30:85-88.
Ubelaker, Douglas H. 1989. Human Skeletal Remains: Excavation, Analysis and Interpretation. Washington: Taraxacum.
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posted
There are tribes in Africa that contain all of the racial forms you have illustrated because of climatic and dietary variations.
Since we know that these facial forms are due to climate and diet then features that are Caucasoid can change to Negroid simply due to migration and in situ evolution consequently these facial forms do not imply relatedness. The only relatedness implied by facial form is climate and diet adaptation.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: There are tribes in Africa that contain all of the racial forms you have illustrated because of climatic and dietary variations.
Since we know that these facial forms are due to climate and diet then features that are Caucasoid can change to Negroid simply due to migration and in situ evolution consequently these facial forms do not imply relatedness. The only relatedness implied by facial form is climate and diet adaptation.
Go back to cuckooland. Negroid tribes do not have Caucasoid features. You have an obsession to attatch yourself to white features when you are black. You repeatedly expose your self-hate. If you think Negroids have Caucasoid features such as blonde or red straight-wavy hair and thin noses then show the scientific evidence. Where are these supposed negroes with thin noses and straight hair?
Above are all scientific sources. Go through them and actually learn something. Stop denying science for your own biased agenda. And for the last time - stop the self hate, just admit what your race looks like. Next you will probably be claiming negroes have pale white skin, Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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(a) leptorrhine (thin) prominent nose (Coon, 1939, 1962; Cole, 1965; Pearson, 1974; Hinderer, 1978; Brues, 1990) but a wide nasal septum (on average 4. 75 mm) because of the nasal cartilage supporting its shape (Schultz, 1913; Wilkinson 2004).
(c) heavy growth of facial and body hair (Coon, 1962; Pearson, 1985; Brues, 1990).
(d) pigmentation of skin hue ranging from pale white, ruddy-pink to a darker brunette-white or olive colour (Grant, 1916; Hooton, 1946; Coon, 1939; 1962; Pearson, 1985).
(e) The hair colour in Caucasoids also is incredibly diverse, ranging from fair to dark of all shades, red, auburn, brown, black and blonde (Taylor, 1949; Cole, 1965; Coon, 1982).
=====================================
osirion has made the crackpot claim Negroid tribes have the above features -
So here is my challenge:
POST A PHOTO of a -
*Thin nosed/wavy haired/straight jawed Negro with freckles, and red or blonde hair.
Good luck. Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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posted
Anyone wanting to learn about Caucasoid, Negroid and Mongoloid racial differences and origins should look at the following works -
Researches into the Physical History of Man by James Cowles Prichard (1813, 3rd Ed. 1844) Races of Man and Their Geographical Distribution by Charles Pickering (1848) The Races of Man: a fragment by Robert Knox (1850) An Essay on the Inequality of the Human Races by Arthur de Gobineau (1853) Types of Mankind by George Gliddon, Josiah Nott, Samuel George Morton and Louis Aggasiz (1854) Indigenous Races of the Earth by George Gliddon and Josiah Nott (1857, 2nd Ed. 1868) On the Geographical Distribution of the Chief Modifications of Mankind by Thomas Huxley (1870) The Races of Man: and their geographical distribution by Oscar Peschel (1876) The Races of Britain by John Beddoe (1885) Anthropological History of Europe by John Beddoe (1893) The Study of Man by Alfred Cort Haddon (1898) The Races of Europe by William Zebina Ripley (1899) The Races of Man: an outline of anthropology and ethnography by Joseph Deniker (1900) The Mediterranean Race by Guiseppe Sergi (1901) The Races of Man and their Distribution by Alfred Cort Haddon (1909) Jews: A Study of Race and Environment by Maurice Fishberg (1911) European and Other Race Origins by Herbert Bruce Hannay (1915) Men of the Old Stone Age by Henry Fairfield Osborn (1916) The Passing of the Great Race by Madison Grant (1916) The Peoples of Europe by Herbert John Fleure (1922) The Racial History of Man by Roland Burrage Dixon (1923) Racial Realities in Europe by Lothrop Stoddard (1924) The Racial Elements in European History by Hans Friedrich Karl Günther (1927) The Makers of Civilization in Race and History by Laurence Waddell (1929) Races of Africa by Charles Gabriel Seligman (1930) Human History by Grafton Elliot Smith (1930) The Races of Man by Robert Bennett Bean (1932, 2nd Ed. 1935) The Races of Europe by Carleton Stevens Coon (1939) Up from the Ape by Earnest Albert Hooton (1946) Human Genetics by Renigald Ruggles Gates (1946) Races of Man by Maurice Seal White (1947) Human Ancestry from a Genetical Point of View by Renigald Ruggles Gates (1948) Environment, Race and Migration by Thomas Griffith Taylor (1949) Genetics and the Races of Man by William Clouser Boyd (1950, 2nd Ed. 1958) Races and People by William Clouser Body (1958) Races of Mankind, their origin and migration by Calvin Ira Kephart (1960) The Origin of Races by Carleton Stevens Coon (1962, 2nd Ed. 1963) Races of Man by Sonia Mary Cole (1965) Living Races of Man by Carleton Stevens Coon (1965) Race and Civilization by Roger Pearson (1966) Races and Race by Richard Allen Goldsby (1971, 2nd Ed. 1977) Race by John Baker (1974) Introduction to Anthropology by Roger Pearson (1974) The Races and Peoples of Europe by Bertil Lundman (1977) Racial Adaptations by Carleton Stevens Coon (1982) Anthropological Glossary by Roger Pearson (1985) Heredity and Humanity: Race, Eugenics and Modern Science by Roger Pearson (1996, 2nd Ed. 1998)
Forensic Works which prove race exists -
Alice M. Brues, People and Races (1990); Schultz AH, Relation of the external nose to the bony nose and nasal cartilages in whites and negroes. Am J Phys Anthropol. 1913;1:329; Gill, George W. 1986, Craniofacial Criteria in Forensic Identification, Forensic Osteology. Reichs, KI(ed.), pp. 143-159; 2nd Edition, 1998, Reichs, Kathleen 1 (ed.), pp. 293-315; Gill George W., 1990, ''Skeletal Attribution of Race: Methods for Forensic Anthropology'', Maxwell Museum of Anthropology, Anthropological Papers, No. 4; Wilton Marion Krogman, The Human Skeleton in Forensic Medicine (1986); Carlonine Wilkinson, Forensic Facial Reconstruction (Cambridge University Press, 2004).
Race and Races: a Black Biologist Writes About Actual Racial Differences and Their Significance
It is not common that you hear of a Black biologist on the subject of race who is not influenced by political correctness or a multiracial agenda. However in 1971 (2nd Ed. 1977) the Black biologist Richard Allen Goldsby put out an excellent work on the reality of race entitled: Race and Races: a Black Biologist Writes About Actual Racial Differences and Their Significance.
Goldsby's work shows that race is a reality and maintains that races are different not only phenotypically and genetically but also in behavioural and mental aspects. You can puchase this excellent work from Amazon.
posted
"race classification of all individuals in this sample using the Forensic Data Bank option. Of the 95 individuals, 42 (44 percent) were classified as white, 35 percent as black, 9 percent as Hispanic, 4 percent as Japanese, 4 percent as American Indian, and the remaining three individuals as Chinese and Vietnamese" - Ubelaker et al., Application of Forensic Discriminant Functions to a Spanish Cranial Sample, 2002.
Going by cassiterides stuck-on 19th century pseudo science constructs, then the "Cro-Magnons" of European fulfill the "Negroid" banner.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: There are tribes in Africa that contain all of the racial forms you have illustrated because of climatic and dietary variations.
Since we know that these facial forms are due to climate and diet then features that are Caucasoid can change to Negroid simply due to migration and in situ evolution consequently these facial forms do not imply relatedness. The only relatedness implied by facial form is climate and diet adaptation.
Go back to cuckooland. Negroid tribes do not have Caucasoid features. You have an obsession to attatch yourself to white features when you are black. You repeatedly expose your self-hate. If you think Negroids have Caucasoid features such as blonde or red straight-wavy hair and thin noses then show the scientific evidence. Where are these supposed negroes with thin noses and straight hair?
Above are all scientific sources. Go through them and actually learn something. Stop denying science for your own biased agenda. And for the last time - stop the self hate, just admit what your race looks like. Next you will probably be claiming negroes have pale white skin,
Besides the ad hominem attack, let's be sure we are talking about the same thing.
The definition of Caucasoid you have given in this thread is simply this:
quote:Originally posted by osirion: There are tribes in Africa that contain all of the racial forms you have illustrated because of climatic and dietary variations.
Africans with Caucasoid physical tendencies have ancient admixture from the Middle East. They are not true Africans.
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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So, the hg J2 carrying Lemba have "Caucasoid physical tendencies"?
What about the "Middle Easterners" who give these Africans their "caucasoid physical tendencies"? They have plenty of admixture from Africa. They are not true "Middle Easterners". They ought to look like the "admixed" Africans, should they not?
What about Southern Europeans: They ought to look like 'admixed" Africans, since they are not true Europeans. They have admixture from Africa.
Mind briefing me on what caucasoid physical tendencies you have in mind.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Caucasoid Cranialfacial features have been posted above. A skull fitting those traits has the probability of being 95% Caucasoid (which is a high number, which is why forensic physical anthropology is a legitimate science).
If race didn't exist then forensic scientists would be out of jobs. That's how crazy race denialism is.
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posted
Rice?? did someone said rice?? I am sick of rice!! although I heard brown rice is actually good for you same with brown bread rather than white bread... Cassis do you like Ham??
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
Clear retard 1 above. Many of my sources are from the late 1990's. They are not outdated. My most recent is 2004.
Alice M. Brues, People and Races (1990); Schultz AH, Relation of the external nose to the bony nose and nasal cartilages in whites and negroes. Am J Phys Anthropol. 1913;1:329; Gill, George W. 1986, Craniofacial Criteria in Forensic Identification, Forensic Osteology. Reichs, KI(ed.), pp. 143-159; 2nd Edition, 1998, Reichs, Kathleen 1 (ed.), pp. 293-315; Gill George W., 1990, ''Skeletal Attribution of Race: Methods for Forensic Anthropology'', Maxwell Museum of Anthropology, Anthropological Papers, No. 4; Wilton Marion Krogman, The Human Skeleton in Forensic Medicine (1986); Carlonine Wilkinson, Forensic Facial Reconstruction (Cambridge University Press, 2004).
Forensic Science. United States of America: CRC Press, Inc.
EI-Najjar, Mahmoud Y. and K Richard McWilliams 1978. Forensic Anthropology: The Structure, Morphology and Variation of Human Bone and Dentition. Illinois: Charles C. Thomas.
Gill, George W. 1998. "Craniofacial Criteria in the Skeletal Attribution of Race. " In Forensic Osteology: Advances in the Identification of Human Remains. (2nd edition) Reichs, Kathleen l(ed.), pp.293- 315.
Gill, George W. 1986. "Craniofacial Criteria in Forensic Identification." In Forensic Osteology: Advances in the identification of Human Remains. Reichs, KI(ed.). pp. 143- 159. Springfield: Charles C.
Krogman, Wilton Marion and Mehmet Yascar Iscan 1986. The Human Skeleton in Forensic Medicine. Springfield: Charles C.Thomas.
Lahr, Marta Mirazon 1996. The Evolution of Modern Human Diversity: A Study of Cranial Variation. Britain: University Press, Cambridge. Thomas.
Post, Richard H. 1969. Tear Duet Size Differences of Age, Sex and Race. American Journal of Physical Anthropology. 30:85-88.
Ubelaker, Douglas H. 1989. Human Skeletal Remains: Excavation, Analysis and Interpretation. Washington: Taraxacum.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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So, the hg J2 carrying Lemba have "Caucasoid physical tendencies"?
Show me analyses done on their autosomal DNA. I am pretty sure they are over 85% Negrid, consistent with their phenotype.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: What about the "Middle Easterners" who give these Africans their "caucasoid physical tendencies"? They have plenty of admixture from Africa. They are not true "Middle Easterners". They ought to look like the "admixed" Africans, should they not?
What about Southern Europeans: They ought to look like 'admixed" Africans, since they are not true Europeans. They have admixture from Africa.
posted
There is a 95% accuracy of race determination from a skull, however these traits are not clear until puberty.
^^OK, let's go with this for now. Since 95% "proves" race, then it is clear that the ancient Egyptians, until the late era of Assyrians, Greeks, Arabs etc, cluster more with tropical Africans than Europeans or Middle Easterners via craniofacial studies. You just debunked yourself, once again.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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TABLE 1: Cranial Ancestral Traits: A Summary of the Current Research Methodology
Source: Gill, George W. and Rhine, Stanley, eds. 1990 Skeletal Attribution of Race: Methods for Forensic Anthropology. Maxwell Museum of Anthropology, Anthropological Papers No. 4 (Albuquerque, NM).
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
^^OK, let's go with this for now. Since 95% "proves" race, then it is clear that the ancient Egyptians, until the late era of Assyrians, Greeks, Arabs etc, cluster more with tropical Africans than Europeans or Middle Easterners via craniofacial studies. You just debunked yourself, once again.
Ancient Egyptian skulls NEVER cluster closely to racially pure Africans.
Ethiopians and the like with heavy Caucasoid ancestry do not count.
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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TABLE 1: Cranial Ancestral Traits: A Summary of the Current Research Methodology
Source: Gill, George W. and Rhine, Stanley, eds. 1990 Skeletal Attribution of Race: Methods for Forensic Anthropology. Maxwell Museum of Anthropology, Anthropological Papers No. 4 (Albuquerque, NM).
Thanks.
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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Caucasoid Cranialfacial features have been posted above. A skull fitting those traits has the probability of being 95% Caucasoid (which is a high number, which is why forensic physical anthropology is a legitimate science).
If race didn't exist then forensic scientists would be out of jobs. That's how crazy race denialism is.
Tutsi?
A single tribe that has Caucasoid facial features among its population as well as Negroid.
SAN?
Negroid and Mongoloid facial features in its population.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: the most recent study this "cassiterides" has is from the late 1800s. lol
^^You caught him on this. In another thread he was said that "Cavalli-Sforza1986" suggests or said that "true" Black africans were "absent" from the continent's "central, eastern, and southern regions"..
Originally posted by Casterides:
quote: ''True Black Africans appear as a recent adaptive radiation apparently branching off from an ancestral Pygmy population — a line of ancestry also indicated by osteological data (Coon 1962:651-656; Watson et al. 1996). This radiation seems to have occurred somewhere in West Africa. Before the Bantu expansion about 3,000 years ago, true Black Africans were absent from the continent's central, eastern, and southern regions (Cavalli-Sforza 1986:361-362; Oliver 1966). They were also absent from the middle Nile until about 4,000 years ago, at which time they begin to appear in paintings from Pharaonic Egypt and in skeletal remains from Nubia (Junker 1921).''
He ran away in the other thread when asked for proof but you are now still holding his feet to the fire. What's taking him so long in providing *his own* reference to back up his claim, re these mysteriously "missing" Africans?
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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A single tribe that has Caucasoid facial features among its population as well as Negroid.
Some Tutsi have strong Hamitic Caucasoid admixture, especially among their elites.
The aboriginals of Rwanda, the Twa, have extreme Paleo-Negrid features. Clearly Caucasoid features are not native to those environs.
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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posted
Cranial Analysis of Nubians reveals Caucasoid admixture.
Source(s):
G. Elliot-Smith and F. Wood Jones 'Report of the Human Remains', The Archaeological Survey of Nubia, Report for 1907-1908, II (1910), Cairo.
A. M. Batrawi, 'The Racial History of Egypt and Nubia. Part I. The craniology of Lower Nubia from Predynastic Times to the sixth century AD.' J. R. Anthrop. Inst. LxxV, 1945, pp.81-101.
E. Stroughal, 'Anthropologicka problematika nubijiske skupiny X', Comenius University, Bratislava, 1966.
The indigenous inhabitants of Nubia were Capoids (Bushmen) who were then pushed south by the Caucasoids from the Mediterranean around 14,000 - 12,000 years ago.
Source:
D. R. Burnor and J.E Harris, 'Racial continuity in Lower Nubia: 12,000 BC. to the present', Proc. Indiana Acad. Sci. for 1967, lxxvii (1968) pp. 113-121.
Negroids arrived in Nubia about 7,000 years after the Caucasoids had displaced the Capoids. Negroes then appeared in Egypt around 2,000 BC as slaves or as the Nubia population (which by then had Negroid admixture).
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: What's taking him so long in providing *his own* reference to back up his claim, re these mysteriously "missing" Africans? [/QB]
The source is Cavalli-Sforza's book on the Pygmies entitled 'African pygmies' (Academic Press, 1986).
This work shows that Negroids mutated from an ancestral pygmy population around 9,000 BC in West Africa. So the 'true' Black African today is a recent mutation. Caucasoids and Mongoloids predate them. Negroids only migrated into other parts of Africa during the Bantu expansion or slightly earlier. Prior to them, Caucasoids inhabited North Africa and Bushmen (Capoids) to the south who were displaced by the Caucasoids from the Mediterranean around 12,000 BC.
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posted
The source is Cavalli-Sforza's book on the Pygmies entitled 'African pygmies' (Academic Press, 1986).
This work shows that Negroids mutated from an ancestral pygmy population around 9,000 BC in West Africa.
^^A bogus reference. Why should anyone take your word for it given past bogus references? Quote where Cavalli-Sforza says these so-called "negroids" "mutated" from Pygmies. The burden of proof is on you, since you made the claim.
While you scurry to cover your tracks with yet more bogus claims, Cavali Sforza, in his well known The History and Geography of Human Genes, 1994 Cavalli-Sforza summarizes his 1986 work on Pygmies and specifically debunks the "Pygmy as ancestor" theory held by other older writings. QUOTE:
"It remains difficult to pinpoint an ancient place of origin for the Negroid type which includes all West, Central and South Africans. Contrary to many earlier opinions, modern Pygmies and Khosians are not good candidates for a proto-African population."
--Cavalli Sforza et al, 1994. The history and geography of human genes. 194
SO much for your lying claims of "mutations" from "Pygymy" ancestors. In short, you lied about Cavalli-Sforza, creating a falsified claim and a bogus "supporting" reference to a claim that is nowhere supported in his work. You are once again exposed as yet another racist, who relies on bogus "evidence" to advance, dubious and debunked claims. You are not fooling anyone.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: Cranial Analysis of Nubians reveals Caucasoid admixture.
Source(s):
G. Elliot-Smith and F. Wood Jones 'Report of the Human Remains', The Archaeological Survey of Nubia, Report for 1907-1908, II (1910), Cairo.
A. M. Batrawi, 'The Racial History of Egypt and Nubia. Part I. The craniology of Lower Nubia from Predynastic Times to the sixth century AD.' J. R. Anthrop. Inst. LxxV, 1945, pp.81-101.
E. Stroughal, 'Anthropologicka problematika nubijiske skupiny X', Comenius University, Bratislava, 1966.
The indigenous inhabitants of Nubia were Capoids (Bushmen) who were then pushed south by the Caucasoids from the Mediterranean around 14,000 - 12,000 years ago.
Source:
D. R. Burnor and J.E Harris, 'Racial continuity in Lower Nubia: 12,000 BC. to the present', Proc. Indiana Acad. Sci. for 1967, lxxvii (1968) pp. 113-121.
Negroids arrived in Nubia about 7,000 years after the Caucasoids had displaced the Capoids. Negroes then appeared in Egypt around 2,000 BC as slaves or as the Nubia population (which by then had Negroid admixture).
You are displaying your ignorance of the history of the Nubian people. If you knew the population changes in the last 800 years especially after conquest by Saladin, you would know the history of rape and genocide that has occurred in Sudan that has displaced many of original people and introduced a skewed haplogoup frequency.
As for the Tutsi, there is no genetic evidence of East African admixture.
If you want me to cite reports I will but I think you just need to do your homework a bit here.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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So you are new at this; you didn't know that hg J2 parents would have had to have contributed half of the offspring's 44 chromosomes?
The fact that J2 is there, should have rendered these groups "caucasoid" and "not true Africans", given your philosophy.
quote: I am pretty sure they are over 85% Negrid, consistent with their phenotype.
Prove it...and I don't mean lazily posted links, left for me to sort out.
How is it that "ancient admixture from the Middle East" renders Africans "caucasoid tendencies", your words, but not in this (Lemba) case?
quote:Negrid admixture is rather low in those groups. They are overwhelmingly Caucasoid (85-98%).
It has been found in Greek sample, for example, as high as ~ 21%, and about the same for Sicilians, Romanians -- about 22%, and going even as high as 32% in Albanians. Using your philosophy, Greeks should look like the "admixed Africans", shouldn't they?
I'm guessing you have not acquainted yourself with Luis et al. (2004), for example, to get some figures of African ancestry in Arabia?
Your so-called "ancient admixture from the Middle East" is also low, lest you are prepared to show otherwise.
quote:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Mind briefing me on what caucasoid physical tendencies you have in mind.
quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: Cranial Analysis of Nubians reveals Caucasoid admixture.
Source(s):
G. Elliot-Smith and F. Wood Jones 'Report of the Human Remains', The Archaeological Survey of Nubia, Report for 1907-1908, II (1910), Cairo.
A. M. Batrawi, 'The Racial History of Egypt and Nubia. Part I. The craniology of Lower Nubia from Predynastic Times to the sixth century AD.' J. R. Anthrop. Inst. LxxV, 1945, pp.81-101.
E. Stroughal, 'Anthropologicka problematika nubijiske skupiny X', Comenius University, Bratislava, 1966.
The indigenous inhabitants of Nubia were Capoids (Bushmen) who were then pushed south by the Caucasoids from the Mediterranean around 14,000 - 12,000 years ago.
Source:
D. R. Burnor and J.E Harris, 'Racial continuity in Lower Nubia: 12,000 BC. to the present', Proc. Indiana Acad. Sci. for 1967, lxxvii (1968) pp. 113-121.
Negroids arrived in Nubia about 7,000 years after the Caucasoids had displaced the Capoids. Negroes then appeared in Egypt around 2,000 BC as slaves or as the Nubia population (which by then had Negroid admixture).
This is obviously a strawman because I was referring to the Tutsi. They have Caucasoid and Negroid facial features in their population and there is no evidence that they are horn Africans.
Genetically they appear the same as the Hutu who are Negroid according to your classification.
You also failed to answer my question about Caucasoid facial features. If you a missing any of them are you less Caucasoid? Example, if you have a receding chin and prognathism.
Where does Caucasoid end and Negroid begin?
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: So you are new at this; you didn't know that hg J2 parents would have had to have contributed half of the offspring's 44 chromosomes?
The fact that J2 is there, should have rendered these groups "caucasoid" and "not true Africans", given your philosophy. Prove it...and I don't mean lazily posted links, left for me to sort out.
How is it that "ancient admixture from the Middle East" renders Africans "caucasoid tendencies", your words, but not in this (Lemba) case?
Lemba mtDNA is highly Bantuid.
''These studies revealed that mtDNA types found in the Lemba are indistinguishable from the Venda and other south-eastern Bantu- speakers.''
Refiguring the archive - C. Hamilton.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: It has been found in Greek sample, for example, as high as ~ 21%, and about the same for Sicilians, Romanians -- about 22%, and going even as high as 32% in Albanians. Using your philosophy, Greeks should look like the "admixed Africans", shouldn't they?
I'm guessing you have not acquainted yourself with Luis et al. (2004), for example, to get some figures of African ancestry in Arabia?
Your so-called "ancient admixture from the Middle East" is also low, lest you are prepared to show otherwise.
E1b1b1a is a Hamitic/Eurafrican marker. The basal branches of E1b1b1a-V68 (without the M78 mutation) have only been found in Southern Europe, suggesting Mediterranean origins for this clade. E1b1b1a in Europe is mostly E1b1b1a-V13, which is pretty much absent in Africa.
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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''These studies revealed that mtDNA types found in the Lemba are indistinguishable from the Venda and other south-eastern Bantu- speakers.''
Refiguring the archive - C. Hamilton.
Aren't you something? You qualified "caucasoid tendencies" in Africans with "ancient admixture from the Middle East", and now you are throwing it under the bus, when a population fitting the bill, but which you think doesn't jive with your "cacasid theory", is presented to you.
Your one line extract doesn't say much either. A similar assessment can be made of any of your nameless fake Africans with "caucasoid tendencies".
Also on notice, is your pretty sure comment about the "over 85% Negrid" gene pool of the Lemba, which you were supposed to back up via autosomal data; instead, you thought a one liner on mtDNA would make up for absence of that data.
quote: E1b1b1a is a Hamitic/Eurafrican marker. The basal branches of E1b1b1a-V68 (without the M78 mutation) have only been found in Southern Europe, suggesting Mediterranean origins for this clade. E1b1b1a in Europe is mostly E1b1b1a-V13, which is pretty much absent in Africa.
Stop kidding yourself with make feel-good labels. You know very well that E1b1b1a is a "Negrid" marker.
Given your philosophy, the presence of this marker should render these untrue or borderline Europeans the same physiological tendencies as the "admixed Africans".
Somebody fooled you, when they said V13 marker was absent in Africa. But to get at your intended point, which is to say that the Europeans carry a distinct sub-clade of E1b1b1a not widely distributed in Africa, one can pretty much apply the same rational towards your "fake" Africans with "cacasid tendencies". The markers they carry are distinguishable from the "Middle Easterners".
Still on notice: Absence of your description of "caucasoid tendencies" in your own words.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
Stop kidding yourself with make feel-good labels. You know very well that E1b1b1a is a "Negrid" marker.
Osiron trolls as Cassiretedes. He has a hard time keeping his labels straight.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: Cranial Analysis of Nubians reveals Caucasoid admixture.
Source(s):
G. Elliot-Smith and F. Wood Jones 'Report of the Human Remains', The Archaeological Survey of Nubia, Report for 1907-1908, II (1910), Cairo.
A. M. Batrawi, 'The Racial History of Egypt and Nubia. Part I. The craniology of Lower Nubia from Predynastic Times to the sixth century AD.' J. R. Anthrop. Inst. LxxV, 1945, pp.81-101.
E. Stroughal, 'Anthropologicka problematika nubijiske skupiny X', Comenius University, Bratislava, 1966.
The indigenous inhabitants of Nubia were Capoids (Bushmen) who were then pushed south by the Caucasoids from the Mediterranean around 14,000 - 12,000 years ago.
Source:
D. R. Burnor and J.E Harris, 'Racial continuity in Lower Nubia: 12,000 BC. to the present', Proc. Indiana Acad. Sci. for 1967, lxxvii (1968) pp. 113-121.
Negroids arrived in Nubia about 7,000 years after the Caucasoids had displaced the Capoids. Negroes then appeared in Egypt around 2,000 BC as slaves or as the Nubia population (which by then had Negroid admixture).
lol, you are loco in the head!
Wadi Kubbaniya (ca. 17,000–15,000 B.C.)
In Egypt, the earliest evidence of humans can be recognized only from tools found scattered over an ancient surface, sometimes with hearths nearby. In Wadi Kubbaniya, a dried-up streambed cutting through the Western Desert to the floodplain northwest of Aswan in Upper Egypt, some interesting sites of the kind described above have been recorded. A cluster of Late Paleolithic camps was located in two different topographic zones: on the tops of dunes and the floor of the wadi (streambed) where it enters the valley. Although no signs of houses were found, diverse and sophisticated stone implements for hunting, fishing, and collecting and processing plants were discovered around hearths. Most tools were bladelets made from a local stone called chert that is widely used in tool fabrication. The bones of wild cattle, hartebeest, many types of fish and birds, as well as the occasional hippopotamus have been identified in the occupation layers. Charred remains of plants that the inhabitants consumed, especially tubers, have also been found.
It appears from the zoological and botanical remains at the various sites in this wadi that the two environmental zones were exploited at different times. We know that the dune sites were occupied when the Nile River flooded the wadi because large numbers of fish and migratory bird bones were found at this location. When the water receded, people then moved down onto the silt left behind on the wadi floor and the floodplain, probably following large animals that looked for water there in the dry season. Paleolithic peoples lived at Wadi Kubbaniya for about 2,000 years, exploiting the different environments as the seasons changed. Other ancient camps have been discovered along the Nile from Sudan to the Mediterranean, yielding similar tools and food remains. These sites demonstrate that the early inhabitants of the Nile valley and its nearby deserts had learned how to exploit local environments, developing economic strategies that were maintained in later cultural traditions of pharaonic Egypt.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: So you are new at this; you didn't know that hg J2 parents would have had to have contributed half of the offspring's 44 chromosomes?
The fact that J2 is there, should have rendered these groups "caucasoid" and "not true Africans", given your philosophy. Prove it...and I don't mean lazily posted links, left for me to sort out.
How is it that "ancient admixture from the Middle East" renders Africans "caucasoid tendencies", your words, but not in this (Lemba) case?
Lemba mtDNA is highly Bantuid.
''These studies revealed that mtDNA types found in the Lemba are indistinguishable from the Venda and other south-eastern Bantu- speakers.''
Refiguring the archive - C. Hamilton.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: It has been found in Greek sample, for example, as high as ~ 21%, and about the same for Sicilians, Romanians -- about 22%, and going even as high as 32% in Albanians. Using your philosophy, Greeks should look like the "admixed Africans", shouldn't they?
I'm guessing you have not acquainted yourself with Luis et al. (2004), for example, to get some figures of African ancestry in Arabia?
Your so-called "ancient admixture from the Middle East" is also low, lest you are prepared to show otherwise.
E1b1b1a is a Hamitic/Eurafrican marker. The basal branches of E1b1b1a-V68 (without the M78 mutation) have only been found in Southern Europe, suggesting Mediterranean origins for this clade. E1b1b1a in Europe is mostly E1b1b1a-V13, which is pretty much absent in Africa.
How did this V13 mutation occur?
And what is a Eurafrican marker? lol
The Masalit posses by far the highest frequency of E-M78.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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So, the hg J2 carrying Lemba have "Caucasoid physical tendencies"?
Show me analyses done on their autosomal DNA. I am pretty sure they are over 85% Negrid, consistent with their phenotype.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: What about the "Middle Easterners" who give these Africans their "caucasoid physical tendencies"? They have plenty of admixture from Africa. They are not true "Middle Easterners". They ought to look like the "admixed" Africans, should they not?
What about Southern Europeans: They ought to look like 'admixed" Africans, since they are not true Europeans. They have admixture from Africa.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Also on notice, is your pretty sure comment about the "over 85% Negrid" gene pool of the Lemba, which you were supposed to back up via autosomal data; instead, you thought a one liner on mtDNA would make up for absence of that data.
I couldn't care less about the Lemba. They are obviously predominantly Negrid, autosomal analyses on them will soon confirm it.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Given your philosophy, the presence of this marker should render these untrue or borderline Europeans the same physiological tendencies as the "admixed Africans".
Somebody fooled you, when they said V13 marker was absent in Africa. But to get at your intended point, which is to say that the Europeans carry a distinct sub-clade of E1b1b1a not widely distributed in Africa, one can pretty much apply the same rational towards your "fake" Africans with "cacasid tendencies". The markers they carry are distinguishable from the "Middle Easterners".
Still on notice: Absence of your description of "caucasoid tendencies" in your own words.
- The basal form of E1b1b1a*-V68* has only been found in Southern Europe. - Cruciani et al. proposed a northern Northeast Africa origin for M78*, the region of Egypt and Libya. - E1b1b1a in the Balkans is invariably E1b1b1a-V13. There is very little E-V13 in North Africa and where it is, it seems likely to be Jewish or Greek. - The Autosomal DNA of people in the Balkans is firmly European & West Asian. http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F9XoyN2wE-w/ToZBZZT7jdI/AAAAAAAAAmI/qwmGu64Xvwk/s1600/admixture.png
Iberia is where the true African autosomal mixture in Europe is at (albeit very low!). Not the Balkans.
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Perahu: 40-50% of Nubian mtDNA is M/N
And their yDNA is loaded with J/R/E1b1b/I
Clearly a heavily admixed population.
Not racially pure at all
1) I have my doubts in this claim.
2) I do know that in some regions there is admixture, like in parts of Luxor. But over all not. Especially further down South it's not. Nubians in fact are a bit exhenophoic.
I also remember a time when Eurocentrist called Nubians n*gg*rs. And unrelated to ancient Egypt.
Then came this Nubian claim, when it appeared that people from the South like nubians are at the foundation of ancient Egypt.
How typically and ironic.
Question is: why are the still the same in warm adapted body portions and a continues people. Why are Nubians not hairy on the body like Eurasians? If there was truthfully this amount of overall foreign genetic input. Etc...
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Idiot, there many African minority groups in Arab countries. That first man is obviously not a native of Socotra, he looks to be from Southeast Africa. Probably a lower class slave descendant.
This is how the aboriginals of Socotra look like. Quite East Indian looking.
Socotri Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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Idiot, there many African minority groups in Arab countries. That first man is obviously not a native of Socotra, he looks to be from Southeast Africa. Probably a lower class slave descendant.
This is how the aboriginals of Socotra look like. Quite East Indian looking.
Socotri
lol, I did not know it would pain you this much, to see such image. And I truly don't know about your assessment. The man with the so called South African features was on that site.
Anyway, the reason why I posted those pictures was because the Lemba have stated, out of their own mouth, that they came from Yemen. And are from the tribe of Benjamin, this is what I've heard coming from their own mouth. Their story attests all of this.
This is what they look like.
They also carry the particular Cohanim-gene in highest frequency.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche, posted 13 October, 2011 01:59 PM :
The people shown here are the result of a mixture of the Afro-Arabian Kamar branch of the Mahra Arabians original "Ethiopic" occupants of these islands and the people who named the Komoros or Comoros Islands. These dark brown fuzzy headed Ethiopic people or original Sabaic-Himyarites, mixed with people from India and Africa and later fair-skinned peoples who had come into Arabia especially in the last millenium.
The name Socotra comes from the Bani Sakun and Saksak tribes (or Kindite Arabians), known also anciently to the Greeks as the Ascitae or Skenitas Arabus. These Shahra-Mahra related and other Ethiopians are no longer there in any purity as they are in Hadramaut, Somalia and Oman.
There are no pure type in Socotra any more, they are a mixture of many populations as is modern Arabia and North Africa in general making dna analysis of modern populations rather pointless or irrelevant.
This topic was discussed several times before by one poster in here (I forgot who) as well as the moderator Henu (Yom) who is Ethiopian. Again, that J1 originated either in or close to Africa is no surprise. Euronuts like Malcontent love to define the Arabian-Palestine region as 'Eurasian' even though it is right next to Africa and its geology is continuous to Africa as well as contiguous with it. Keita himself stated that it is a Eurocentric ploy to label such lineages and the populations they entail as automatically 'Eurasian' when they derive so close to Africa.
Yemenis
As for the island of Socotra, while its indigenous population was described as 'Hamitic', it was settled by Indians and others during Medieval Islamic times. This explains why some Socotrans look Indian as per Lyinass's picture. Even the very name 'Socotra' is an Indian word for 'paradise'.
*Note dead Israelites at left. From Bas Relief at Nineveh.
I couldn't care less about the Lemba. They are obviously predominantly Negrid, autosomal analyses on them will soon confirm it.
I understand. It's natural for you to care less about matter that falsifies your ideology.
You were already falsified on your "ancient admixture from Middle Eastern" as a justification for promoting your "caucasoid tendencies" in Africans; that's no longer an issue. So, the request for atDNA was just gravy.
quote:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
Given your philosophy, the presence of this marker should render these untrue or borderline Europeans the same physiological tendencies as the "admixed Africans".
Somebody fooled you, when they said V13 marker was absent in Africa. But to get at your intended point, which is to say that the Europeans carry a distinct sub-clade of E1b1b1a not widely distributed in Africa, one can pretty much apply the same rational towards your "fake" Africans with "cacasid tendencies". The markers they carry are distinguishable from the "Middle Easterners".
Still on notice: Absence of your description of "caucasoid tendencies" in your own words.
- The basal form of E1b1b1a*-V68* has only been found in Southern Europe. - Cruciani et al. proposed a northern Northeast Africa origin for M78*, the region of Egypt and Libya. - E1b1b1a in the Balkans is invariably E1b1b1a-V13. There is very little E-V13 in North Africa and where it is, it seems likely to be Jewish or Greek. - The Autosomal DNA of people in the Balkans is firmly European & West Asian. http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F9XoyN2wE-w/ToZBZZT7jdI/AAAAAAAAAmI/qwmGu64Xvwk/s1600/admixture.png
Iberia is where the true African autosomal mixture in Europe is at (albeit very low!). Not the Balkans.
This is a diversion. As noted, your rational of a distinct European sub-clade of M78, as a justification for nullifying your own underlying premise of "admixed Africans with caucasoid tendencies", can just as well be applied to those "admixed Africans" of your's.
It can be said that those Africans carry clades distinct from the "Middle Eastern" examples, and even have basal clades for them.
And still no word on "caucasoid tendencies" in your own words. What; you don't know what your own words mean?
Ps-I'll deal with your diversion separately, notwithstanding.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Perahu: Certain Yemenis have *RECENT* slave ancestry from *SOUTH*-East Africa. Not even the Horn, but from the far South (i.e. Tanzania/Mozambique).
Those foreign looking Yemenis with profound Negrid phenotypes you like to spam are *NOT* true Natives.
Indigenous Yemenis have markedly Caucasoid physical features.
Yes, you're right. Certain have slave ancestry, but not all. There is an ancient in put in Yemen, from Africa which has nothing to do with slavery or being enslaved. There are classic texts confirming and attesting this.
As you probebly already know, there is Northern Arabic and Southern Arabic. We also know that Arabic actually split from Afroasian as the original proto-Arabic speakers from Africa moved into the Levant. Further into Southwest Asia. Where it evolved into a Semitic branch.
And, we know that Northern Arabic speakers came from the region of the Crescent, and aren't native to Yemen, but are recent immigrants.
I have always wondered why Rasulullah fled to Abyssinia, to seek refuge?
Speaking of aboriginals, the pre-Islamic time?
Khaled K Abu-Amero et al.
Mitochondrial DNA structure in the Arabian Peninsula
Two potential migratory routes followed by modern humans to colonize Eurasia from Africa have been proposed. These are the two natural passageways that connect both continents: the northern route through the Sinai Peninsula and the southern route across the Bab al Mandab strait.
Recent archaeological and genetic evidence have favored a unique southern coastal route. Under this scenario, the study of the population genetic structure of the Arabian Peninsula, the first step out of Africa, to search for primary genetic links between Africa and Eurasia, is crucial.
The haploid and maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) molecule has been the most used genetic marker to identify and to relate lineages with clear geographic origins, as the African Ls and the Eurasian M and N that have a common root with the Africans L3.
"Particularly, Yemen has the largest contribution of L lineages (30). So, most probably, this area was the entrance gate of a portion of these lineages in prehistoric times, which participated in the building of the primitive Arabian population."
Viktor Černý1 et al.
Migration of Chadic speaking pastoralists within Africa based on population structure of Chad Basin and phylogeography of mitochondrial L3f haplogroup
Quote:
We use high-resolution genetic data to investigate the genetic and linguistic support for hypotheses concerning the population history in the Chad Basin. The mitochondrial L3f3 haplogroup is found almost exclusively in Chadic speaking populations and its TMRCA corresponds well with archaeological and linguistic dates of the proposed migration of Chadic speaking pastoralists from East or North East Africa to the Chad Basin.
Haplogroup L3f is defined by the coding variants
3396-4218-15514-15944del and the control region motif 16209–16519 with a TMRCA of 57,100 ± 9,400 YBP. This haplogroup diversifies into sub-haplogroups L3f1, L3f2 and L3f3. The most geographically widespread sub-haplogroup is L3f1, which is distributed across the African continent [3] and also Arabia [32,33] and has a TMRCA of 48,600 ± 11,500 YBP.
..."The youngest clade, L3f1b2, seems to be more frequent in the Middle East. L3f1a seems to be older (37,700 ± 10,000 YBP) than its sister sub-haplogroup L3f1b and is also less diversified. A few samples from Chad belong to these sub-haplogroups: two to L3f1a and one to L3f1b3."
"We then estimated pairwise FST genetic distances between populations (Additional file 4) and displayed these on a MDS plot (Figure 3). Interesting results are immediately evident – while Chadic populations form a relatively homogeneous group, the Cushitic populations split into two completely different clusters. The first group is composed of Horn of African populations, such as Ethiopian and Somali Cushitic populations, which are close to neighbouring Ethiopian Semitic speaking groups and relatively close also to Chadic people from the Chad Basin. The second Cushitic group is composed by more southern groups from Tanzania, i.e. Burunge and Iraqw, who occupy outlier positions even within the Afro-Asiatic MDS plot. In the MDS plot, geography is more strongly associated with genetic distance than is linguistic affiliation.
Overall, we observe that Chadic speaking populations are intermixed with other populations from Chad Basin, including Niger-Congo, Semitic, and Berber speaking people. In this context, it seems that the linguistic categories play a secondary role in structuring the genetic diversity."
quote:It is known and generally accepted that the original Arabs came from and arose at Yemen.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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- The basal form of E1b1b1a*-V68* has only been found in Southern Europe.
But you see, that doesn't do you much good, because undifferentiated M78 chromosomes are virtually absent in Europe. The bulk of these are of African gene pool. Without M78, there can be no V13 (which itself is not European in origin).
As for the V68, these are more than likely chromosomes directly brought in from Africa. They are likely chromosomes whose positions within the M78 network will be determined later, as DNA screening gets refined in the future, just as some of the undifferentiated African M35* have been recently refined, with new binary markers.
For V68 to emerge in Europe, as you are insinuating, the most basic M35 chromosomes would have to have been in Europe. But these chromosomes are almost restricted to Africa, with the greatest diversity found anywhere. It's odd that there are no unique V68 sub-clades of Europe, yet the African-based V68 has spawned at least 3 different haplogroups. Don't you agree?
This is a very strong signal of the African origin to an African gene flow of V68 directly into Europe (seems to be what Trombetta et al. were tacitly getting at), as opposed to using the "Near East" as stopping point in the route.
There are also conflicting reports of V13's place in the M78 network. Can you explain this:
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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- Cruciani et al. proposed a northern Northeast Africa origin for M78*, the region of Egypt and Libya.
Cruciani et al. would not make a proposition like that, because their results don't say that. There is no M78* in Libya.
The reported high frequency was found in an upper Egyptian population: the Gurna.
quote:- E1b1b1a in the Balkans is invariably E1b1b1a-V13. There is very little E-V13 in North Africa and where it is, it seems likely to be Jewish or Greek.
That's because the V13 emerged in Anatolia (among first farmers) en-route to Europe via "Middle East", from Africa.
Iberia is where the true African autosomal mixture in Europe is at (albeit very low!). Not the Balkans.
I guess this is why Greeks cluster closest to sub-Saharan Africans in HLA genes, which seems to be missing in your unsourced "admixture" map, even before the Spanish do.
I guess that's why admixture analysis elsewhere have reported traces of "sub-Saharan" in Spanish samples by around 10% and Turkish samples by around 9.4%, not factoring coastal north African ancestry and sub-Saharan east and central African influence.
Your link displays a "southeastern" component and a "far Asian" in the Ethiopian sample with a predominant "African" segment. What could those possibly be?
Here's something to stump you with:
How about the darkest Somalis (nearly the same skin color as the Dinka) who look no cranio-facially different from the lighter Somalis. How does your "ancient admixture from the Middle East" play into this?
How come the Rendille or say the Iraqw, as another example, who look no different from certain "Afro-Asiatic" groups in the African Horn, virtually show very little in common with Europeans?
Last but not least: Don't forget to tell me what "caucasoid tendencies" means in your own words. Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
^ If Greeks cluster 'closest' to Sub-Saharan Black Africans why don't they look Negroid?
And how did black genes enter the Greeks? The only population of blacks in ancient Greece were slaves.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:Originally posted by cassiterides: ^ If Greeks cluster 'closest' to Sub-Saharan Black Africans why don't they look Negroid?
And how did black genes enter the Greeks? The only population of blacks in ancient Greece were slaves.
Because they mutated at the Crescent many thousands of years ago. Hence V13.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Troll Patrol: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Perahu: [qb] Certain Yemenis have *RECENT* slave ancestry from *SOUTH*-East Africa. Not even the Horn, but from the far South (i.e. Tanzania/Mozambique).
Those foreign looking Yemenis with profound Negrid phenotypes you like to spam are *NOT* true Natives.
Indigenous Yemenis have markedly Caucasoid physical features.
“This is the meaning of the saying, … ‘a red man as if he is one of the slaves’. The speaker meant that his color is like that of the slaves..." Al Dhahabi in SIYAR AL NUBALA"A
These are people with the "ahmar" complexion of Syrians and Iranians and Rum (GREEK-Romans) which he Arabs said "RESEMBLED THE SLAVES" Siyar al Nubala
Even Central Arabia was considered Bilad es Sudan by the Syrians like Al Umari 14th century A.D.. There is nothing indigenous to the Yemen in the people above. The Yemen was considere4d part of Ethiopia by the Persians and Syrians, Tihama and North Arabia WAS THE LAND OF kush and kedar.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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I posted this to show the relation and correlation between the Yemeni Yahudi population and the Lemba-Cohanim population who've stated they came from Yemen, and descent from the tribe of Benjamin.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
The word Negroid refers to physical characteristics characteristic of certain Africans and not to a race.
Many black Africans with narrow noses get their traits and other elongated features from desert evolution not from being related to Eurasiatics. Eurasiatic "Caucasoids have their own separate evolution and these groups come from populations that were not very numerous in Europe until 5,000 years ago, let alone in North Africa.
Most Mesolithic and Neolithic peoples in the Mediterranean and Anatolia and North Africa resembled Africans and not Eurasiatics.
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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