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Carlos Coke
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I'm about to put my credibility as an armchair egyptologist on the line, but hey WTF!

The idea of African trans-Atlantic contact with the Americas is something that I've previously dismissed out of hand, and I'm still pretty sceptical. However, one thing that I've learned in reading this forum and general reading around Ancient Egypt is to try to keep an open mind.

As yet there is no evidence that the Egyptians made it to the Americas,but my question relates more to the technological and logistical feasibility. Given the expeditions to Punt, the Egyptians clearly had a degree of seafaring expertise. I have no information on how large their biggest ships were, but I remember seeing a replica of a Portuguese caravel on the Thames several years ago and was struck by how small it was for an ocean-going vessel. Also, from what I understand,the Egyptians did build vessels longer in length than the Santa Maria, Nina and Pinta, the ships Colombus sailed with. (Although the length of a vessel wouldn't necessarily make it ocean-going.)

It's also worth noting that the Portuguese established staging posts on islands off Africa and actually on continental Africa along the route to Asia.Could the Egyptians have likewise had staging posts along the coast of North Africa, through the straits of Gibraltar and then down West Africa before crossing to the Americas?

So again, my question is not so much whether the Egyptians or other Africans got to the Americas, but whether it would have been technologically and logistically possible given what we know so far about Egypt's maritime capabilities.

The question stems from the documentary Channel 4 showed in the late 90's about the cocaine found in the mummy in Germany, and the controversy surrounding the Olmecs.

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Clyde Winters
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The Egyptians had the capasity to sail to America. This is supported by the mention of Egyptian ships trading with Sumer and Akkad.

The most important thing you have to realize is that if the Egyptians sailed to America they would have used ancient rivers leading from middle Africa to the Atlantic. And from the Western/Northwestern parts of Africa to the Americas.


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The Egyptians would not have sailed to the Americas via the Indian and Pacific oceans.

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Mike111
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claus3600 - Your view is much too limited, Cretans and Phoenicians were also great sea-farers. All built ships more Ocean capable than Columbus's ships - thousands of years EARLIER!. BTW - It really is rather foolish of you to expect the Albinos to tell you of the exploits of ancient Blacks.

Egyptian ship from 3,000 B.C. (which was 143 ft.), and Columbus' ships: Of the three ships of Columbus, the Santa Maria (a small carrack) was a much slower, heavier ship, about 70-feet long — and carried close to 40 men. The Nina and Pinta were caravel-type ships just 66 feet long and with a width of 23 feet - each carried 26 men, the crew slept on deck. Having learned the hammock from native Americans, the crews slept better on their return trip.

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The Santa Maria

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Phoenician ship - 1,000 B.C.
A typical Phoenician merchant ship was 30 metres long and 7 metres wide and had a crew of about 20.

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Cretan/Minoan Ship 1,500 B.C.

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Nigerian boat - 6,000 B.C.

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Egyptians in Australia
A News Article - 1996

Egyptian hieroglyphs found in New South Wales:

The hieroglyphs tell the tale of early Egyptian explorers, injured and stranded, in ancient Australia. The discovery centers around a most unusual set of rock carvings found in the National Park forest of the Hunter Valley, 100 km north of Sydney.

The enigmatic carvings have been part of the local folklore of the area for nearly a century with reports of people who sighted them as far back as the early 1900's.

The site was secretly visited by families "in the know" in the 1950's and fell back into local mythology for a couple of decades until it was accidentally rediscovered by a man looking for his lost dog.

The carvings are in a rock cleft, a large block of split sandstone on a cliff-face that has created a small chasm or "chamber" of two flat stone walls facing each other that widens out from two to four meters and is covered in by a huge flat rock as a "roof" at the narrow end.

The cleft is most cave-like and only accessible by a small rock chute from above or below, well disguised from the average bush-walker.

When you first come up the rock chute and climb into the stone hallway you are immediately confronted by a number of worn carvings that are obviously ancient Egyptian symbols. These are certainly not your average Aboriginal animal carvings, but something clearly alien in the Australian bush setting.

There are at least 250 hieroglyphs.

At the end of the chamber, protected by the remaining section of stone roof, is a remarkable life sized carving of the ancient Egyptian god "Anubis", the Judge of the Dead !

The hieroglyphs were extremely ancient, in the archaic style of the early dynasties.

This archaic style is very little known and untranslatable by most Egyptologists who are all trained to read Middle Egyptian upward.

The classic Egyptian dictionaries only handle Middle Egyptian, and there are few people in the world who can read and translate the early formative style.

Because the old style contains early forms of glyphs that correlate with archaic Phoenician and Sumerian sources one can see how the university researchers who saw them could so easily have thought them to be bizarre and ill-conceived forgeries.

The aging Egyptologist Ray Johnson, who had translated extremely ancient texts for the Museum of Antiquities in Cairo eventually was successful in documenting and translating the two facing walls of Egyptian characters - which stemmed from the Third Dynasty.

The rock walls chronicle a tragic saga of ancient explorers shipwrecked in a strange and hostile land, and the untimely death of their royal leader, "Lord Djes-eb".

A group of three cartouches (framed clusters of glyphs) record the name of "RA-JEDEF" as reigning King of the Upper and Lower Nile, and son of "KHUFU" who, in turn, is son of the King "SNEFERU".

This dates the expedition just after the reign of King Khufu (known in the Greek as "Cheops" reputed builder of the Great Pyramid) somewhere between 1779 and 2748 BC.

Lord Djes-eb may have actually been one of the sons of the Pharaoh Ra Djedef, who reigned after Khufu.

The hieroglyphic text was apparently written under the instruction of a ship's captain or similar, with the corner glyph on the wall displaying the title of a high official or chief priest.

The scribe is "speaking for his Highness, the Prince, from this wretched place where we were carried by ship."

The expedition's leader, as mentioned before is described in the inscriptions as the King's son, "Lord Djes-eb", who came to grief a long way from home.

The hieroglyphics sketch his journey and his tragic demise: "For two seasons he made his way westward, weary, but strong to the end.

Always praying, joyful, and smiting insects. He, the servant of God, said God brought the insects.

Have gone around hills and deserts, in wind and rain, with no lakes at hand.

He was killed while carrying the Golden Falcon Standard up front in a foreign land, crossing mountains, desert and water along the way.

He, who died before, is here laid to rest.
May he have life everlasting. He is never again to stand beside the waters of the Sacred Mer. MER meaning "love".

There was a moat around the pyramid called the "waters of Mer".

The second facing wall, which was much more seriously eroded, details the tragedy further.

This wall begins with the badly eroded glyph of a snake (Heft), with a glyph of jaws (to bite) and the symbol for 'twice'.

The snake bit twice.
Those followers of the diving Lord "KHUFU", mighty one of Lower Egypt, Lord of the Two Adzes, not all shall return.

We must go forward and not look back.

All the creek and river beds are dry. Our boat is damaged and tied up with rope.

Death was caused by snake. We gave egg-yolk from the medicine-chest and prayed to AMEN, the Hidden One, for he was struck twice."

Burial rituals, prayers and preparations are described.

"We walled in the side entrance to the chamber with stones from all around. We aligned the chamber with the Western Heavens."

The three doors of eternity were connected to the rear end of the royal tomb and sealed in.

We placed beside it a vessel, the holy offering, should he awaken from the tomb.

Separated from home is the Royal body and all others.

Visual observation of the site makes it obvious that the very worn carvings exposed to the coastal weather would have to be several centuries to a thousand years old at least.

When first found the site was completely overgrown with thick vegetation and filled in with smashed rock and a much higher soil line.

A number of excavation attempts by interested parties have not turned up any artifacts or bodies but sophisticated and expensive laser scanning techniques have not been applied.

There is significant evidence that the ancients were well aware of the Great South land.

There were both Sumerian and Mayan traditions of a "lost motherland" in the Pacific.

Australia appears under the name of "Antoecie" on the famous spherical world map of Crates of Mallos, even appearing on the Greek map of Eratosthenese in 239 BC.

It seems fairly certain that the maritime civilizations of antiquity were quite capable of extensive ocean voyages.

Particularly the early Egyptians, as evidenced by Giza's remarkable "Tomb of the Boat".

In the 1950's, a streamlined 4,500 year old, hundred foot, ocean going vessel was excavated from right next to the Great Pyramid.

In 1991 an entire fleet of even older boats was found buried in the desert at Abydos in Upper Egypt.

According to Cairo Times, in 1982, archaeologists working at Fayum, near the Siwa Oasis uncovered fossils of kangaroos and other Australian marsupials.

And there's also the strange set of golden boomerangs discovered by Prof. Carter in the tomb of Tutankhamen in 1922.

Comment: They traveled westward for two seasons. Where were they coming from: India, China, the Americas?

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Carlos Coke
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I've just googled this and I have to admit I'm having a stunned moment...scroll down for images.

http://www.zakairan.com/CosmicCookies/EgyptHierosInOZ.htm

Are they definitely real?

They actually do look fake.

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Mike111
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^You have been well programmed. Though I must admit surprise that you seem so comfortable with it.
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Carlos Coke
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^
Unfair.

If I'm ever to enter into debate on the identity and achievements of the Egyptians, which I may well do if I decide to study an MA in the subject, then I will need to be absolutely sure of my sources and arguments.

At great financial cost I've travelled to 20 countries in Africa and studied an MA in African Studies. I'm here on this forum so I can give my children a three-dimensional view of Africa, it's people and history.

And what do you say when I express doubt about a source - that I've been well programmed.

Over to you.

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africurious
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^Claus, that's mike's usual m.o.--if someone disagrees with him then they're a house negro or programmed or some other nonsense. Ignore that fool. This is the first i'm hearing about the australian heiroglyphs but it sounds suspect to me too. I'm glad that you're educating your kids with a holistic view of africa. I hope to do the same when I have mine.
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Mike111
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^It was a fair criticism; There is no substitute for common sense. If you are uncertain of the authenticity of a claim or artifact, the logical thing to do is to research scientific refutation of same. Absent refutation after over 100 years, one may feel reasonably certain of authenticity.

But my comment was mostly toward your reluctance to believe something so contrary to that which you have been taught. You have been "Conditioned" to disbelieve Black achievement, and you still don't understand that.

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africurious
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quote:
The idea of African trans-Atlantic contact with the Americas is something that I've previously dismissed out of hand, and I'm still pretty sceptical. However, one thing that I've learned in reading this forum and general reading around Ancient Egypt is to try to keep an open mind.
I completely feel you on this one. Reading Van Sertima's "They Came Before Columbus" opened my eyes to the possibility. I recommend it (he also discusses africans from the mali empire going to the americas too).

Regarding the possibilty of american voyages by AE's, it's very possible. Thor Hyerdahl did the voyage himself on a boat similar to what the egyptians used to show it was possible. Also, it's not necessary to have a ship or large boat to do open ocean travel--that is just something ppl who don't know much about ocean travel think (this would include the vast majority of ppl, especially archaeologists). Large vessels can be tossed about in stormy waters but small vessels due to their small size just kinda ride the waves. Also, strong currents off the west end of africa travel straight to the southern part of the americas. So even if you knew nothing of the americas you could be caught in one of the currents and end up in the caribbean basin or the NE end of south america. Columbus's ships were apparently caught in such currents and pushed to the americas. Van Sertima discusses all this in his book.

So, yes, it was very technologically and logistically possible but did it actually happen?

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Mike111
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africurious - Does the term "Negro" ring a bell?
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Carlos Coke
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@Mike111

You have been "Conditioned" to disbelieve Black achievement, and you still don't understand that.

Or

Maybe it's because I'm so confident in my own personal achievements and good fortune - two healthy beautiful kids, debt free and mortgage paid off at 39, travel to over 40 countries worldwide, educated to MA level, Mandarin speaking (top grade SAT equivalent) - that as a self-assured black man I do not have to clutch at straws regarding black achievement.

You may well still call me a house nigger, but how many house niggers do you know that have had the testicular fortitude to broadcast on Iranian television, hosting discussions dissecting US and Western foreign policy toward the Middle East and wider global south?

Over to you.

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by claus3600:
^
Unfair.

If I'm ever to enter into debate on the identity and achievements of the Egyptians, which I may well do if I decide to study an MA in the subject, then I will need to be absolutely sure of my sources and arguments.

At great financial cost I've travelled to 20 countries in Africa and studied an MA in African Studies. I'm here on this forum so I can give my children a three-dimensional view of Africa, it's people and history.

And what do you say when I express doubt about a source - that I've been well programmed.

Over to you.

If plan to get a MA, you should never think about debating your professors.

If you plan to study Egyptology you have to go for the PhD. Most people taking the PhD in Egyptology usually spend around 7-8 years studying for the degree. Most people never complete their degree because of the time and money involved in studying for a PhD in egyptology.

.

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Marc Washington
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.
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Egypt, Africa, and the Americas – some considerations:

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http://www.beforebc.de/Related.Subjects/Ships.Sea-faring/64-11-00-10.html

e.g. 3, 4 & 5 compared to 7 - 9:

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http://www.beforebc.de/Made.by.Humankind/Human.Animal.RockArt/01-17-800-00-08.html


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http://www.beforebc.de/all_america/900_america/02-16-900-00-03.html

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http://www.beforebc.de/Related.Subjects/Queen.Califia.and.California/02-16-900-09.html

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http://www.beforebc.de/all_america/900_america/02-17-900-15-00-10.html

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The nature of homelife is the fate of the nation.

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Marc Washington
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.
.

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http://www.beforebc.de/all_america/900_america/02-16-900-07.html


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http://www.beforebc.de/Made.by.Humankind/Fun.Furniture/59-13-900-00-20.html


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http://www.beforebc.de/all_america/900_america/02-16-900-20-SE.chi.bon-80-500-15-10-01.MayansSmokingCigarettes.html


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http://www.beforebc.de/all_america/900_centralamerica/02-16-900-00-08.OlmecAndMexican.html


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http://www.beforebc.de/all_america/900_centralamerica/02-16-900-20-SE.chi.bon-76-100-20-10-06.html

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The nature of homelife is the fate of the nation.

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Whatbox
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claus3600, thread already started

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000033

esreloaded page:

http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=hist&action=display&thread=591

infact, threads were already started specifically on Sesostris but I don't know where at the moment I just remember like me asking, maybe Masonic Rebel or Truthcentric commenting the same question, and then ausar speaking briefly what he knows of it (I think little) and then linking to this old C. Bass (RU2, or one of them) forum that had a thread where pictures in histry books of supposed black Georgian descendants. I don't really remember at all, maybe it was like two pics or so. Maybe more. Infact, since I believe I started that thread maybe you'll find it (lol) after clicking on my profile and going to recent posts. It's late; after typing this all out for some reason I don't feel like looking it up.

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the lioness,
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claus, Mike has exposed you as a negro

The Gosford Glyphs

David Coltheart visits the "Kariong Egyptoid" site near Sydney, Australia

The following text and images are adapted from an excellent Australian magazine on the middle east called Archaeological Diggings which is published every two months by David Down, PO Box 341 Hornsby NSW Australia.

You can find the website at www.diggingsonline.com

In response to the many requests that regularly come to Archaeological Diggings, I decided for once and for all to check the claims made for the so-called "Gosford Glyphs" located near Kariong, about 60 km north of Sydney. Following a suggestion made by a regular reader of AD, I made an appointment with Neil Martin, Ranger with the National Parks and Wildlife Service (NPWS) at Gosford who recently took me on a guided tour to the site. This was my third visit to the cleft in the rock where about 100 Egyptian looking hieroglyphs carved into the sandstone cliffs have given rise to all sorts of speculation about their age and significance.The carvings are located within the Brisbane Water National Park inside a rock cleft that the local NPWS people refer to as the "Kariong Egyptoid" site. However, access is through private property and visitors should get permission to enter. Alternately, they can access the site through the national park via the "Lyre Trig" mountain above the site. The road rises gently to the summit of the mountain (241 m) and is well worth the half-hour climb because of the breath taking 360-degree view right over the Central Coast and down as far as Sydney. (Some locals have whimsically identified a nearby flat rock as a landing site for a space ship!
The area around Lyre Trig is famous for numerous Aboriginal carvings, including figures of giant kangaroos, men holding nulla nullas and spears, as well as carvings of hands and tools. The Aboriginal carvings, many in very inaccessible places, have been well researched and their positions noted long before the discovery of the so-called Egyptian hieroglyphs.
At the southern base of the Lyre Trig, in a very accessible location, two parallel sandstone cliffs, 1.5 m apart and 3 m high, run up the hill for about 15 metres. On both cliffs there are carved familiar Egyptian hieroglyphs, but among them are some stranger figures - a stick man hanging out the washing, a dog's bone, a very unEgyptian bell and several symbols that look like flying saucers.Alan Dash, a surveyor with the Gosford City Council between 1968 and 1993, first noticed the carvings about 1975. Thoroughly familiar with the area, he revisited the site several times over the next 5 years, each time observing that more and more carvings appeared on the rock face. He considered the engravings the work of an irresponsible vandal.

Neil Martin himself found the man responsible. "In 1984 1 was in the area helping to put out a fire", he told me. "As I came around the base of the hill, I could hear a noise like someone chipping stone. I walked over to the cleft and found an old Yugoslavian man, chipping the stone with a Sidchrome cold chisel. Because this was national park property, I confiscated the chisel and the man left. Because he was mentally handicapped, we took no further action, but I later gave the chisel to the local historical society. We never saw the old man again."

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike111:
africurious - Does the term "Negro" ring a bell?

I heard negro was the Spanish word for black, is it true?
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TruthAndRights
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quote:
At great financial cost I've travelled to 20 countries in Africa and studied an MA in African Studies. I'm here on this forum so I can give my children a three-dimensional view of Africa, it's people and history.

And what do you say when I express doubt about a source - that I've been well programmed.

Over to you.

quote:
^Claus, that's mike's usual m.o.--if someone disagrees with him then they're a house negro or programmed or some other nonsense. Ignore that fool. This is the first i'm hearing about the australian heiroglyphs but it sounds suspect to me too. I'm glad that you're educating your kids with a holistic view of africa. I hope to do the same when I have mine.
quote:
Or

Maybe it's because I'm so confident in my own personal achievements and good fortune - two healthy beautiful kids, debt free and mortgage paid off at 39, travel to over 40 countries worldwide, educated to MA level, Mandarin speaking (top grade SAT equivalent) - that as a self-assured black man I do not have to clutch at straws regarding black achievement.

You may well still call me a house nigger, but how many house niggers do you know that have had the testicular fortitude to broadcast on Iranian television, hosting discussions dissecting US and Western foreign policy toward the Middle East and wider global south?

Over to you.

 -  -
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TruthAndRights
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike111:
africurious - Does the term "Negro" ring a bell?

I heard negro was the Spanish word for black, is it true?
 -

 -

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