posted
"Ancient Egyptians as a whole generally exhibit intermediate body breadths relative to higher and lower latitude populations, with Lower Egyptians possessing wider body breadths, as well as lower brachial and crural indices, compared to Upper Egyptians and Upper Nubians. This may suggest that Egyptians are closely related to circum-Mediterranean and/or Near Eastern groups, but quickly developed limb length proportions more suited to their present very hot environments. These results may also reflect the greater plasticity of limb length compared to body breadth.
... It can be seen that previous stature estimation methods tend to overestimate Egyptian stature for both sexes.It can be seen that previous stature estimation methods tend to overestimate Egyptian stature for both sexes. The present studys stature estimates (bolded) are about 1-3 cm less than that of other studies for the same time periods, with an average 1.5 cm difference. New Kingdom pharaoh males may have been taller because of their higher status, however Robins and Shute (1983) used Trotter and Glesers (1958) equations for American Blacks to estimate their statures is the mean using regression formulae for the femur). Raxter et al. (2008) showed that although ancient Egyptians proportions are closer to American Blacks than they are to American Whites, they are not identical. Stature regression equations derived from American Black populations may therefore not be appropriate to estimate the statures of ancient Egyptians.
...The fact that limb proportions in ancient Egyptians are somewhat more “tropical” may reflect the greater lability of limb length compared to body breadth. The results may also suggest that Egyptians are closely related to circum-Mediterranean and/or Near Eastern groups and have retained those body breadths acquired earlier in time, but quickly developed limb length proportions more suited to their present very hot environments. The present results for bi-iliac breadth are also consistent with various genetic studies that have found modern Egyptians to have close affinities to Middle and Near Easterners (Manni et al., 2002; Arredi et al., 2004; Shepard and Herrera, 2006; Rowold et al., 2007) and Southern Europeans/Mediterranean groups (Capelli et al., 2006). Some of these authors suggested their results may have been associated with a diffusion from the Near East during the expansion of early food-producing societies (Arredi et al., 2004; Rowold et al., 2007)....MK, NK, and Roman-Byzantine Nubian males exhibit greater stature variation than their Egyptian counterparts from the same periods, with Nubian males possessing more variation compared to Nubian females. The greater variation in Nubian males may be indicative of greater in-migration of and intermarriage with foreign males. (Raxter; 2011)
posted
Compared to Upper Egyptians and Nubians guess what?? the greater population density and the origins of Kemetian culture was in the south.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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White Nord
A banned big lipped primate
Member # 14093
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So basically Lower Egyptians came from the East and adapted to the hot climate of Egypt, while the Upper Egyptians are group in the middle of the two. In other words "Super Negroid" Egyptians has been debunked, with these new methods.
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White Nord
A banned big lipped primate
Member # 14093
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So basically Lower Egyptians came from the East and adapted to the hot climate of Egypt, while the Upper Egyptians are group in the middle of the two. In other words "Super Negroid" Egyptians has been debunked, with these new methods.
Don't celebrate too soon Ace. Raxter is a solid researcher, but there are some flaws in her presentation. In fact, your use of her bi-iliac ranges will not do much for your much touted "wandering Caucasoids" project.
In earlier studies (one of which Raxter herself did) US Blacks as a tropial people were used as a stand-in to estimate height of Ancient Egyptians. In those studies Black AMericans were found to cluster closer to Ancient Egyotians than EUropeans. That finding is not changed at all by Raxter's 2011 study. In fact, the new study AGAIN confirms that tropical peoples have similar limb proportions- hence Egyptians and Nubians cluster thereby. And the clustering of Black Americans has not changed one bit. Sorry.
Bi-iliac ranges are correlated with many things including thermoregulation and locomotion. They are also correlated with stature, and with a shift to agriculture. Hence an "intermediate" bi-iliac range could be easily due to any of the above, including a shift from the mixed economy pre-dynastics, to the more agricultural early dynastic/dynastic types. Such ranges change slowly hence there would not be dramatic jumps in the data over time. Thus "incoming Caucasoids" are not needed to explain "intermediate" bi-iliac ranges lest anyone be tempted to make that interpretation.
QUOTES: "Furthermore bi-iliac breadth appears to change slowly over time, likely due to multiple factors (thermoregulation, obstetrics, locomotion) influencing its shape (Ruff 1994; Auerback 2007).."
"Generally narrower body breaths of the foragers contrast markedy with the wider-bodied agriculturalists. Although bi-iliac breadth has been argued to be stable over long periods of time (Auerbach, 2007), this shift in mean body breath may be indicative of changes correlated with subsistence economy."
"Any use of the bi-iliac breath/stature body mass estimations would inherently reflect changes in stature.."
-- Pihasi & Stock. 2011. Human Bioarchaeology of the Transition to Agriculture
1--"Ancient Egyptians as a whole generally exhibit intermediate body breadths relative to higher and lower latitude populations, with Lower Egyptians possessing wider body breadths, as well as lower brachial and crural indices, compared to Upper Egyptians and Upper Nubians. This may suggest that Egyptians are closely related to circum-Mediterranean and/or Near Eastern groups, but quickly developed limb length proportions more suited to their present very hot environments. These results may also reflect the greater plasticity of limb length compared to body breadth.
^1-- Actually it doesn't automatically "suggest" AEs are "closely related to circum-Mediterranean and/or Near Eastern groups." [/b]All the data shows is that the peoples of the Nile Valley had built-in native variation as expected for the many different micro climes of tropical Africa. Almost 20% of Egypt falls within the tropic zone by the way.
And as noted above, bi-ilac ranges/breadth are also correlated with several other things such as changes in diet and lifestyle as other scholars show. For example agriculturalists tend to have greater body breath than exclusively foraging/hunting peoples. It does not automatically follow that greather breadth ranges mean "circum-Mediterranean" relations. Rather the shift to more dynastic agriculture, from a more mixed pre- dynastic economy can well accommodate changes in body breath without the need for any mass influx of "Near Easterners."
See quotes above to this effect. And it should be noted that the pre-Dynastic Badari, who cluster with tropical Africans were ALREADY farming and stock-raising with some hunting/ foraging on the side. In other words, tropical African variants were ALREADY engaging in the agricultural practices that are correlated with greater bi-iliac ranges. "Diffusion" from the Middle East of plants such as wheat, is just that, diffusuion that was adopted by the indigenous tropical variants on their own terms. They could grow wheat or peas, on their own ground, without needing any "wandering Caucasoids" to be present. This is the precise point stated by Keita 2005, 1992.
QUOTE: Furthermore, the archaeology of northern Africa DOES NOT SUPPORT demic diffusion of farming from the Near East. The evidence presented by Wetterstrom indicates that early African farmers in the Fayum initially INCORPORATED Near Eastern domesticates INTO an INDIGENOUS foraging strategy, and only OVER TIME developed a dependence on horticulture. This is inconsistent with in-migrating farming settlers, who would have brought a more ABRUPT change in subsistence strategy. "The same archaeological pattern occurs west of Egypt, where domestic animals and, later, grains were GRADUALLY adopted after 8000 yr B.P. into the established pre-agricultural Capsian culture, present across the northern Sahara since 10,000 yr B.P. From this continuity, it has been argued that the pre-food-production Capsian peoples spoke languages ancestral to the Berber and/or Chadic branches of Afroasiatic, placing the proto-Afroasiatic period distinctly before 10,000 yr B.P." --Source: The Origins of Afroasiatic Christopher Ehret, S. O. Y. Keita, Paul Newman;, and Peter Bellwood Science 3 December 2004: Vol. 306. no. 5702, p. 1680 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2--Stature regression equations derived from American Black populations may therefore not be appropriate to estimate the statures of ancient Egyptians.
^^In earlier studies (one of which Raxter herself did) US Blacks as a tropial people were used as a stand-in to estimate height of Ancient Egyptians. In those studies Black AMericans were found to cluster closer to Ancient Egyotians than EUropeans. That finding is not changed at all by Raxter's 2011 study. In fact, the new study AGAIN confirms that tropical peoples have similar limb proportions- hence Egyptians and Nubians cluster thereby.
Even if stature was over-estimated in earlier studies as Raxter claims, the data STILL showed US Blacks closer to AE proportions. Whether the use of US blacks is "appropriate" to estimate the statures of AEs makes little difference because in limb to limb comparison, the AE's are closer to the US blacks. Throw out the stature estimation task and this central result STILL stands.
Even if stature estimation is excluded the bottom line results are STILL the same- the AE's cluster more closely with US Blacks. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3-- but quickly developed limb length proportions more suited to their present very hot environments.
^^A misleading claim by Raxter. Actually limb length proportions do not "quickly" change, but are heavily genetically embedded.
Limb proportions DON'T "quickly" change. They are rather slow in fact. Hence tropical proportions found in the Nile Valley are not the product of "Mediterranean" or "Middle Eastern" migrants who "quickly" changed to "tropical Africans." Limb proportions don't work that way. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4-- The present results for bi-iliac breadth are also consistent with various genetic studies that have found modern Egyptians to have close affinities to Middle and Near Easterners (Manni et al., 2002; Arredi et al., 2004; Shepard and Herrera, 2006; Rowold et al., 2007) and Southern Europeans/Mediterranean groups (Capelli et al., 2006). ^^No surprise there. We all know MODERN Egyptians are not identical to the ancients and are more varied, a result that shows up in ancient samples as well. Note below that Zakrewski found one widely used sampling set was not at all typically Egyptian. And whether samples were pooled or not pooled in other studies MADE LITTLE DIFFERENCE. The AEs STILL cluster more with tropical Africans than Europeans or "Middle Easterners."
Some tail end sampling sets are not typical of Ancient Egypt.
5--Some of these authors suggested their results may have been associated with a diffusion from the Near East during the expansion of early food-producing societies ^^Sure some plant and animal domesticates filtered into AE from the "Middle East." That was never at issue. But most of the archaelogical evidence shows no mass influx of "Caucasoids" or "circum-Mediterranean" types to instruct the natives. QUOTE:
Ovacaprines appear in the western desert before the Nile valley proper (Wendorf and Schild 2001). However, it is significant that ancient Egyptian words for the major Near Eastern domesticates - Sheep, goat, barley, and wheat - are not loans from either Semitic, Sumerian, or Indo-European. This argues against a mass settler colonization (at replacement levels) of the Nile valley from the Near East at this time. This is in contrast with some words for domesticates in some early Semitic languages, which are likely Sumerian loan words (Diakonoff 1981).. This evidence indicates that northern Nile valley peoples apparently incorporated the Near Eastern domesticates into a Nilotic foraging subsistence tradition on their own terms (Wetterstrom 1993). There was apparently no “Neolithic revolution” brought by settler colonization, but a gradual process of neolithicization (Midant-Reynes 2000). -- Keita and Boyce, Genetics, Egypt, And History: Interpreting Geographical Patterns Of Y Chromosome Variation, History in Africa 32 (2005) 221-246 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6--Ancient Egyptians "as a whole" Sure. If you lump in the more varied New Kingdom types and Hyskos/Roman era/Greek era types you will get more variation. Everyone knows the tail end period of AE had more variation. Even Zakrewski says that one tail-end series is not "typically" Egyptian. That was never at issue. What is at issue is the genesis and maintenance of the pre-Dynastic and early Dynastic period. Later periods were to have a more mixed pattern, The 12th Dynasty for example had several pharaohs of Nubian origin (Yurco 1989), as did the 18th, as did the 25th. Raxter is eager to highlight the "close links" with "circum-Mediterranean" types it seems, but not the other way.
Whether stature estimation is involved makes little difference. AEs STILL cluster more with Black Americans. ANd limb proportions do not "quickly" change. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7-- FInally Raster's presentation doesnt make a dime's worth of difference on the fact that based on limb proportions, AEs cluster more towards Nubians and other tropical Africans than EUropeans or Middle Easterners. Body breath indexes are accounted for via dietary/economic shifts and do not necessarily point to any influx of "Middle Esterners" or "Mediterraneans"
Note how Raxter presents the data:
A-- It is admitted that the AEs have more tropical proportions. B-- It is admitted that the Nubians have even more tropical proportions. C-- But then the author quickly leaps to highlight body breath and talk about close links with Europe and the Mid East.
--In fact though, there are EVEN CLOSER links in A and B above than C, between Egytians and other Africans via limb proportions. Highlighting body breadth cannot obscure this reality.
Why not the flip side of the "intermediate" body breadth picture? If half is Euro/Mideast, then the other half is African. But why is the highlight only one way towards the EUro/Mideast side where body breadth is concerned?[/n]
And if body breadth is "intermediate"- half of the "close links" - then the second half of the body breath equation is with tropical Africans. If intermediate body breadths tell about Euro/Mid East Links, then THE OTHER HALF LIKEWISE SPEAKS OF AFRICAN LINKS. But how come Raxter never uses a consistent approach on this count - on the flip side?
[b]Sorry... Nord. Back to the "biodiversity" cellar for you.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Limb proportions have never been used as a racial identification factor. Its just another Afrocentric fail. No anthropologist defines races by their limb size.
Posts: 1575 | From: - | Registered: May 2011
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Holliday who the afronuts quote mine accepts the reality that nasal breadths and indices are largest in tropical regions, while the nose is narrow and higher in cold regions.
As everyone knows the AE's were thin nosed and Caucasoid, yet the Afrocentrics in denial want it both ways. They admit AE's had cold adapted traits like thin noses, but at the same time ''tropical limb proportions''.
Posts: 1575 | From: - | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist: Limb proportions have never been used as a racial identification factor. Its just another Afrocentric fail. [qb]
The interesting thing is you had nothing to say on the matter until Nord got debunked. Why weren't you here to say anything when he had bolded parts of limb size. In any case why don't they? Why focus on the face and not account for features of the other 7/8ths of the body? Probably because you'll fail majorly. 1/7th-1/8th "Caucasoid" even if we were to follow you isn't much.
quote:[qb]No anthropologist defines races by their limb size.
Appealing to "authority?" This doesn't make the practice of doing so factually wrong unless you can make a case for why it would be and to provide legitimate reasons why "no anthropologists" do it. Ignoring features of majority of the body and obsessing strictly on the head is foolish if noteworthy differences between groups can be found.It's your job to find reasons why some may discredit the practice and bring that here not just say "no one does it"
Good luck
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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As noted above, body size increases are associated with transition to agriculture. "Wandering Caucasoids" are not needed. Additional quote:
"In this study, skeletal measures of body size were analysed to evaluate the long-term impact of the transition to agriculture in the Nile Valley.. Here we demonstrate that this transition is also associated with a modest reduction and subsequent improvement in stature and body mass. This trend could be broadly interpreted in the context of models of relationship between body size and nutrition." -- Pinhasi & Stock. 2011. Human Bioarchaeology of the Transition to Agriculture
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Oshun: Appealing to "authority?" This doesn't make the practice of doing so factually wrong unless you can make a case for why it would be and to provide legitimate reasons why "no anthropologists" do it. Ignoring features of majority of the body and obsessing strictly on the head is foolish if noteworthy differences between groups can be found.It's your job to find reasons why some may discredit the practice and bring that here not just say "no one does it"
Limb size is not a factor of racial identification because not all members of the same race have the same limb size, furthermore you find races living in environments where they are the opposite adapted to in limb proportion. South Amerindians for example who live in a hot tropical climate have cold adapted limbs.
Cro-Magnons had tropical limb proportions yet they were proto-Caucasoid with no Negroid affinities (their skulls are orthognathic, leptoprosopic with thin nasal holes etc).
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There's no getting around it! The ancient Egyptians were not descendants from "Super NEgroid" populations from the south! It's conclusive with this new method. lol All the years of harping about that have blown up in your faces.
Posts: 219 | Registered: Aug 2007
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Sorry but if you hadn't noticed, Zarahan has concisely dissected your claims and blew them up right in your face! I don't know why you are still going on after the beating he just gave you. Obviously you are too stupid to realize it.
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidiot: Limb proportions have never been used as a racial identification factor. Its just another Afrocentric fail. No anthropologist defines races by their limb size.
There is no such thing as 'race', but of course limb proportions were used in racial identification the same way nasal index was. Why do you think tropically adapted bodies were once called "negroid" builds?? It is only "negroid" until it is found outside of Africa like in Upper Paleolithic Europeans (who descend from Africans) then it no longer negroid but "cacasoid"! LOL You are pathetic!
Nina Jabolonski from 'The Real Eve' : "They [Upper Paleolithic Europeans] still had the tall skinny bodies of Africans..."
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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The idiot boy is just grasping in the dark for ANYTHING the thinks will support his lost cause. But to avail. Zarahan has quickly refuted his claims, though obviously he is denial of that.
Watch him try to squirm his way out of the basal epithelial studies. What's he going to say? That those mummies with black skins aren't really Egyptians but Nubians?? LOLPosts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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...The fact that limb proportions in ancient Egyptians are somewhat more “tropical” may reflect the greater lability of limb length compared to body breadth. The results may also suggest that Egyptians are closely related to circum-Mediterranean and/or Near Eastern groups and have retained those body breadths acquired earlier in time, but **quickly developed limb length proportions more suited to their present very hot environments**.
Her research is exhaustive but her hypotheses are sloppy. This has already been debunked over at ESR but here's the specific reference:
quote:Migration within a larger time framework took place ca. 15,000–18,000 BP, when the first Asian populations crossed the Bering Strait, ultimately founding the modern Amerindian population. Despite having as much as 18,000 years of selection in environments as diverse as those found in the Old World, body mass and proportion clines in the Americas are less steep than those in the Old World (Newman, 1953; Roberts, 1978). In fact, as Hulse (1960) pointed out, Amerindians, even in the tropics, tend to possess some ‘‘arctic’’ adaptations. Thus he concluded that it must take more than 15,000 years for modern humans to fully adapt to a new environment (see also Trinkaus, 1992). This suggests that body proportions tend not to be very plastic under natural conditions, and that selective rates on body shape are such that evolution in these features is long-term."
- Holliday T. (1997). Body proportions in Late Pleistocene Europe and modern human origins. Jrnl Hum Evo. 32:423-447
^Completely contradicting Raxter's hypothesis! Even her Algerian sample shows clustering [in body breadth] with "high latitude" populations as Upper Egyptians still cluster with Nubians. She is merely muddying up the water for whatever reason but trust that there's no evidence to support the above interpretation. Not in her own data and certainly not in evolutionary principle.
BTW, just so everyone knows this is not published, it's actually a thesis (PHD) paper.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Might I add that if you actually look at Raxter's data for Egypto-Nubian bi-iliac breadths, you'll find that it's only the men who have the "intermediate" breadths between Europeans and other Africans; female Egypto-Nubian breadths are significantly closer to African norms. This sex disparity looks bizarre but would suggest against a Near Eastern origin for the Egypto-Nubians.
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Egypt's cultural origins are from Nabta Playa. I am not sure why White Noise is focused on the migrants from the Levant.
I must admit I am confused by the author's mentioning of biocultural connections to the Middle East. What is that based on when all the biocultural connections are to the south with the Nubians?
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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^^OK, but doesn't make a dime's worth of difference in the bottom line..
quote:Originally posted by White Nord: There's no getting around it! The ancient Egyptians were not descendants from "Super NEgroid" populations from the south! It's conclusive with this new method. lol All the years of harping about that have blown up in your faces.
Uhhh... hold on there Ace. You may need a trip back to the "biodiversity" cellar..
In earlier studies (one of which Raxter herself did) US Blacks as a tropical people were used as a stand-in to estimate height of Ancient Egyptians. In those studies Black AMericans were found to cluster closer to Ancient Egyotians than Europeans. That finding is not changed at all by Raxter's 2011 study. In fact, the new study AGAIN confirms that tropical peoples have similar limb proportions- hence Egyptians and Nubians cluster thereby. And the pimb indices clustering of Black Americans with ancient Egyptians has not changed one bit. Throw out the stature estimation task, and it STILL doesn't make a bit of difference.
Raxter's main data variation point is Lower Egypt. But even this varied over time. In the early period, the limb length proportions of northern samples, per Kemp cited above show more affinities with the Africans rather than the Europeans.
And her use of the term "intermediate" is used by some in a misleading way. The Egyptians can still be "intermediate" and cluster with tropical Africans. Which they do. Egypt on the map may be "intermediate" between the Sudan and Sweden but guess which country is closer to Egypt- the African Sudan. So much for the notion of "intermediate" as used by some.
Also flawed is Raxter's blanket notion of "quickly developing" tropical limb lengths, for which she offers little clear evidence. To the contrary, as other scholars show, limb proportions are relatively stable, genetically embedded, and do not quickly change.
If anything the weight of the overall Nile Valley picture also points to another alternative- that of tropical Africans with extreme proportions- having such proportions modified over the millennia by (a) cooler Mediterranean temperatures of Egypt, and (b) a shift to a more agricultural lifestyle.
Body mass variation is thus accounted for by (a) adaptation to cooler climates, and (b) a shift to more agriculture. This does not at all rule out small scale movement from the Levant/Maghreb. We all know it occurred, as well as trade links, prisoners taken in warfare from Palestine etc. But mass influxes of "Mediterraneans" or "Middle Easterners" are not at all needed to give the peoples of the Nile Valley diversity or variation in body mass.
QUOTES: "Generally narrower body breaths of the foragers contrast markedy with the wider-bodied agriculturalists. Although bi-iliac breadth has been argued to be stable over long periods of time (Auerbach, 2007), this shift in mean body breath may be indicative of changes correlated with subsistence economy."
"In this study, skeletal measures of body size were analysed to evaluate the long-term impact of the transition to agriculture in the Nile Valley.. Here we demonstrate that this transition is also associated with a modest reduction and subsequent improvement in stature and body mass. This trend could be broadly interpreted in the context of models of relationship between body size and nutrition."
-- Pinhasi & Stock. 2011 Human Bioarchaeology of the Transition to Agriculture
Well now "Nord"! Looks like you stand once again: Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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“The change found in body plan is suggested to be the result of the later groups having a more tropical (Nilotic) form than the preceding populations.” Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions. Am. J. Phys. Anthropol., Wiley-Liss, Inc. 121(3):219-229 _________________________________________________________
there is a similarity in body breadth between ancient Egyptians and Mediterraneans/Near Easterners. This does not prove that the ancient Egyptians were part Mediterranean or Near Eastern. It shows they might have been. It's uncertain. It could also be soley African
This Egyptian item for instance,
The Gebel el-Arak Knife is a 25.50 cm long knife dating from circa 3300 to 3200 BCE, the late pre-dynastic period in Egypt, which when it was purchased in Cairo[1] was said to have been found at the site of Gebel el-Arak, south of Abydos.
The opposite side of the handle shows Mesopotamian influence[2] featuring the god El, wearing Mesopotamian clothing, flanked by two upright lions symbolizing the Morning and Evening Stars (now both identified with the planet Venus)
this does not prove anything but it does show some cultural connection between Egypt and the Caananites. It's possible they may have been fucking each other sometimes
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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^ some cultural influence is to be expected but there is far more Southern connections.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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^ Cultural influence is expected indeed, especially if Egypt was involved in TRADE with Asia! Trade in items is NOT the same as immigration or incoming geneflow. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Cultural influence is expected indeed, especially if Egypt was involved in TRADE with Asia! Trade in items is NOT the same as immigration or incoming geneflow.
Amenhotep III ordered forty girls from Milkilu, a Canaanite prince, paying 40 kit of silver for each:
"Behold, I have sent you Hanya, the commissioner of the archers, with merchandise in order to have beautiful concubines, i.e. weavers; silver, gold, garments, turquoises, all sorts of precious stones, chairs of ebony, as well as all good things, worth 160 deben. In total: forty concubines - the price of every concubine is forty of silver. Therefore, send very beautiful concubines without blemish."
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Might I add that if you actually look at Raxter's data for Egypto-Nubian bi-iliac breadths, you'll find that it's only the men who have the "intermediate" breadths between Europeans and other Africans; female Egypto-Nubian breadths are significantly closer to African norms. This sex disparity looks bizarre but would suggest against a Near Eastern origin for the Egypto-Nubians.
^WHat set of figures or charts (page numbers etc) are you referring to?
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Here we demonstrate that this transition is also associated with a modest reduction and subsequent improvement in stature and body mass. This trend could be broadly interpreted in the context of models of relationship between body size and nutrition."
An approach that Raxter irresponsibly doesn't adhere to. I don't believe this is an issue of what her data is telling her but a contrived attempt to have her data fit pre-conceived notions. That's my only explanation for her seemingly counter-intuitive interpretation.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Indeed. The slant of some of her presentation makes you wonder. Limb proportions even more show "close relationships" of Egyptians with Nubians and other tropical African populations. But strangely, that isn't stated forthrightly. The "Mediterranean"/"Middle Eastern" angle though, is curiously highlighted out of the more ambiguous body mass data.
Still it doesn't make a dime's worth of difference as regards the clustering based on limb proportions. That hasnt changed' whether stature is estimated by proxy or not- makes no difference.
Found the other info in Pinhasi below- they note that the Badarians were perhaps the MOST DENSE CONTEMPORARY CIVILIZATION in terms of population. Based on this data, the Badarians were world leaders at the time on this score.
What other info from Ehret, Bellwood, etc seems to tell us is that these people, and their predecessors, were storing, harvesting and processing grain for a long time, along with handling domestic animals. In short, they had millennia to undergo body mass increases from expanded food bases. Incorporation of Mid East domesticates only added to an ALREADY dense population and rich economic base. They had more than enough time to see a reduction in earlier foraging morphology toward more increases in body mass- millennia.
Furthermore they had millennia in the Sahara and Nile Valley to adjust to the fluctuating climates, and cooler "Mediterranean" temperatures. That is why these groups did not all look like stereotypical (and distorted) "true" broad morphology. WHy should they after millennia in a more temperate zone, with increasing animal and plant domestication and sedentism in that zone?
WHat do you think?
QUOTE: "With the onset of the Neolithic, the dietary diversity of hunter-gatherers is replaced with dietary specialization on one or a few cereal crops and the products of domestic animals... Increasing sedentism and population density are almost universally associated with increases in infectious disease.. and may underpin the the reduction in stature in the Predynastic period. Archaeological evidence suggests that the Badarian civilization had higher population density than did any other contemporaneous civilizations (Gabriel, 1987, Hassan 1988)." --Pinhasi and Stock 2011. Human Bioarchaelogy of the Transition to Agriculture
and: if the Nile Valley folks were perhaps the first to have the most organized food production system then known on earth, doesn't that say that they had "the body mass thing" covered a long time ago? QUOTE:
“The adoption of this broad adaptive strategy provided the large food supply needed by a growing population, but achieving maximum production called for a good deal of planning and the management of labour. This marks the beginning of an organized food-producing system: agriculture.”
“Dating from more than 15,000 years ago, the evidence from the Nile valley is arguably the earliest comprehensive instance of an organized food-producing system known anywhere on Earth.” --Africa: A Biography of the Continent, by John Reader, 1998, pp. 120-173
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by White Nord: So basically Lower Egyptians came from the East and adapted to the hot climate of Egypt, while the Upper Egyptians are group in the middle of the two. In other words "Super Negroid" Egyptians has been debunked, with these new methods.
Lower Egyptians historically have more admixture. This has always been stated. (thus becoming more intermediate.)
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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^ Of course and as Zakrzewski's studies have shown this admixture occurred during the historical periods from late dynastic times and especially during Islamic times.
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Cultural influence is expected indeed, especially if Egypt was involved in TRADE with Asia! Trade in items is NOT the same as immigration or incoming geneflow.
Amenhotep III ordered forty girls from Milkilu, a Canaanite prince, paying 40 kit of silver for each:
"Behold, I have sent you Hanya, the commissioner of the archers, with merchandise in order to have beautiful concubines, i.e. weavers; silver, gold, garments, turquoises, all sorts of precious stones, chairs of ebony, as well as all good things, worth 160 deben. In total: forty concubines - the price of every concubine is forty of silver. Therefore, send very beautiful concubines without blemish."
Okay, worm! You cited records from New Kingdom (late dynastic times). Show us evidence of an influx of people from Asia whether slaves, concubines, or free migrants, during predynastic times! Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Holliday who the afronuts quote mine accepts the reality that nasal breadths and indices are largest in tropical regions, while the nose is narrow and higher in cold regions.
As everyone knows the AE's were thin nosed and Caucasoid, yet the Afrocentrics in denial want it both ways. They admit AE's had cold adapted traits like thin noses, but at the same time ''tropical limb proportions''.
Body covering is the keyword. The face is not! DUH!!!
Overall, these studies can be interpreted as suggesting that the Egyptian Nile Valley's indigenous population had a craniofacial pattern that evolved and emerged in northeastern Africa, whose geography in relationship to climate largely explains the variation.
semi-tropical/arid tropic zones, show clear limb proportion characteristics of tropically adapted people, and MORE closely resemble other tropically adapted Africans on the continent, than Europeans or Middle Easterners. (Raxter and Ruff 2008, Zakrewski 2003, 2007; Holliday et al, 2003, Kemp, 2005) 3) Undermining claims of cold-climate or skin color primacy for civilization, the great ancient Nile Valley civilization arose from the 'darker' more tropical south, NOT the cold climate or cool climate Mediterranean, Europe or Asia. (Clark, 1982; Shaw 1976, 2003; Bard, 2004; Vogel, 1997; Kemp 2005)
African peoples are the most diverse in the world whether analyzed by DNA or skeletal or cranial methods. The peoples of the Nile Valley vary but they are still related. The people most related ethnically to the ancient Egyptians are other Africans like Nubians not cold-climate/light skinned Europeans or Asiatics. (Keita 1996; Rethelford, 2001; Bianchi 2004, Yurco 1989; Godde 2009)
However, still parts Egypt has cold nightly temperatures and cold winters. In some parts it can get very cold during the night and early morning, like °F 37.4 sometimes lower. As the temperature rises slow during 6-am and 10-am to °F 60.8. Then rises quickly up to °F 77 and higher to during the middle of the day, till it reacher its hot peak. In the afternoon is lowers again by 22:00 PM it has dropped dramatically, already. Hence semi-Tropical zone.
This brought rise to the particular gene-, phenotype we see in Northeast Africans. And we know diet too effects the body.
quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist: ^ You can't have it both ways...
You are just picking and choosing.
Negroids are wooly haired, not straight.
quote:Morphological characteristics ...like skin color, hair form, bone traits, eyes, and lips tend to follow geographic boundaries coinciding often with climatic zones . This is not surprising since the selective forces of climate are probably the primary forces of nature that have shaped human races with regard not only to skin color and hair form but also the underlying bony structures of the nose, cheekbones, etc. (For example, more prominent noses humidify air better.) As far as we know, blood-factor frequencies are not shaped by these same climatic factors
Gill, George W. Does Race Exist? A Proponent's Perspective. University of Wyoming, 2000
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol
have you actually ever been to these locations yourself? (Egypt)
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Of course and as Zakrzewski's studies have shown this admixture occurred during the historical periods from late dynastic times and especially during Islamic times.
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Cultural influence is expected indeed, especially if Egypt was involved in TRADE with Asia! Trade in items is NOT the same as immigration or incoming geneflow.
Amenhotep III ordered forty girls from Milkilu, a Canaanite prince, paying 40 kit of silver for each:
"Behold, I have sent you Hanya, the commissioner of the archers, with merchandise in order to have beautiful concubines, i.e. weavers; silver, gold, garments, turquoises, all sorts of precious stones, chairs of ebony, as well as all good things, worth 160 deben. In total: forty concubines - the price of every concubine is forty of silver. Therefore, send very beautiful concubines without blemish."
Okay, worm! You cited records from New Kingdom (late dynastic times). Show us evidence of an influx of people from Asia whether slaves, concubines, or free migrants, during predynastic times!
Added to that is, Lower Egypt naturally occurs closer to the Mediterranean climate...duh. So naturally they gradually adapted to that climate. S.O.Y. Keita spoke of this somewhere in one of his studies. Maybe you know about it.
The place which comes closets to the Med temperature is Sharm el Sheikh.
Climate: Egypt has a desert climate (except the coastal strip along the Mediterranean). hot, dry summers with moderate winters. Daily sunshine averages 12 hours in the summer and 8-10 hours in the winter. There are some cloudy days in the north during the winter months, with some rain but few in the south.
Southern Egypt is hot in the summer with low humidity. During the winter months - December, January and February - average daily temperatures stay up around 20°C (68°F) on the Mediterranean coast and a pleasant 26°C (80°F) in Aswan. Maximum temperatures get to 31°C (88°F) and 50°C (122°F) respectively. Winter nights only get down to 8°C (45°F), a very Egyptian version of chilly. Alexandria receives the most rain, with 19cm (7.5in) each year, while Aswan is almost bone-dry with just 2mm annually. Between March and April the khamsin blows in from the Western Desert at up to 150kmph (93mph).
Weatherwise: June to August is unbearably hot and temperatures during the day can soar up to 40°C. The best time to visit is in the spring, March to May or Autumn, September to November. In January the weather can be overcast and frequent downpours in some areas. Sinai's beaches are a tad chilly for sunbathing.
The landscape in Egypt can be broadly divided into the elevated structural plateaus and the low plains (which include the fluviatile and coastal plains). These geomorphologic units play a significant role in determining the hydrogeological framework of Egypt and natural constraints facing population distribution. The structural plateaus constitute the active and semi-active watershed areas. The low plains can contain productive aquifers and are also, in places, areas of groundwater discharge.
Egypt lies in the dry equatorial region except its northern areas which lay in the moderate warm region with a climate similar to that of the Mediterranean region. Hot dry summers characterizes Egypt’s climate while in the winter it is moderate with limited rain fall that increases at the coast.
Summer temperatures are extremely high, reaching 38°C to 43°C with extremes of 49°C in the southern and western deserts. The northern areas on the Mediterranean coast are much cooler, with 32°C as a maximum. Around April, a hot windstorm called the Khamsin sweeps through Egypt. Its driving winds blow large amounts of sand and dust at high speeds. The khamsin may raise temperatures as much as 38°C in two hours, and the hot winds can damage crops.
Egypt is known for its hot arid climate. Luxor weather is no exception. The summers are extremely hot and dry. The average temperature at Luxor through the year is about 77°F i.e. about 25°C. Temperature through the year may go up to 104°F i.e. a scorching 40°C the average low temperature may dip to a lowest of about 44°F i.e. about 4°C. Thus we see that Luxor like the rest of Egypt is given to extreme temperature fluctuations. Summers are accompanied by extremely high temperatures and heat waves. Hot winds blow inward from the desert region making life extremely uncomfortable. Light cotton clothes are recommended to the tourists who visit the region in spring or autumn. Winter is the best season in Luxor. Tourists make a beeline to this historic city during this season. The days are warm and pleasant though the nights could get a bit cold. Tourists from European and other western nations often visit Luxor over the Christmas New Year extended weekend. The average temperature at Luxor in December is 60°F or 15.5°C and in January is about 57°F or 13.8°C. If you are visiting Luxor over winter do remember to carry winter clothes and a blanket. Luxor experiences almost no rainfall. The city's average precipitation is about 0.1 inches for the whole year round. Sometimes a rare thunderstorm hits the city in January, but even these are more of dust storms than rain. Though winter is the peak tourist season, autumn and spring is preferred by many as most accommodations offer off season discounts and the weather is quite pleasant. Spring and autumn are also the best seasons to enjoy long cruises down the Nile and picnic on the banks of this river. Before you embark on your trip to Luxor, do enquire about the current year's weather conditions.
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: Appealing to "authority?" This doesn't make the practice of doing so factually wrong unless you can make a case for why it would be and to provide legitimate reasons why "no anthropologists" do it. Ignoring features of majority of the body and obsessing strictly on the head is foolish if noteworthy differences between groups can be found.It's your job to find reasons why some may discredit the practice and bring that here not just say "no one does it"
Limb size is not a factor of racial identification because not all members of the same race have the same limb size, furthermore you find races living in environments where they are the opposite adapted to in limb proportion. South Amerindians for example who live in a hot tropical climate have cold adapted limbs.
Cro-Magnons had tropical limb proportions yet they were proto-Caucasoid with no Negroid affinities (their skulls are orthognathic, leptoprosopic with thin nasal holes etc).
Cro-Magnon skull (Caucasoid) -
Negroid skull -
Then by your logic: progenitors like Tutsi, Maasai types are the original Extreme Tropical Adapted Africans with "caucasoid" crania. Cro-Magnons/ Proto-caucasoids. LOOOOOOL
Euro's are cold adapted!!!!!
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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“The change found in body plan is suggested to be the result of the later groups having a more tropical (Nilotic) form than the preceding populations.” Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions. Am. J. Phys. Anthropol., Wiley-Liss, Inc. 121(3):219-229
Meaning preceding populations were already tropical but became even MORE, as others moved in.
adjective, compar. of much or many with most as superl. "in greater quantity, amount, measure, degree, or number."
“The change found in body plan is suggested to be the result of the later groups having a more tropical (Nilotic) form than the preceding populations.” Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions. Am. J. Phys. Anthropol., Wiley-Liss, Inc. 121(3):219-229 _________________________________________________________
there is a similarity in body breadth between ancient Egyptians and Mediterraneans/Near Easterners. This does not prove that the ancient Egyptians were part Mediterranean or Near Eastern. It shows they might have been. It's uncertain. It could also be soley African
This Egyptian item for instance,
The Gebel el-Arak Knife is a 25.50 cm long knife dating from circa 3300 to 3200 BCE, the late pre-dynastic period in Egypt, which when it was purchased in Cairo[1] was said to have been found at the site of Gebel el-Arak, south of Abydos.
The opposite side of the handle shows Mesopotamian influence[2] featuring the god El, wearing Mesopotamian clothing, flanked by two upright lions symbolizing the Morning and Evening Stars (now both identified with the planet Venus)
Louvre Museum
Ceremonial dagger of silex (blade), hippopotamus ivory (handle) L. 25.50 cm
Work
Dagger from Gebel el-Arak
Department of Egyptian Antiquities: From the late prehistoric period to the late Middle Kingdom (circa 3800 - 1710 BC)
Egyptian Antiquities
From the late prehistoric period to the late Middle Kingdom (circa 3800 - 1710 BC
This unique dagger from the late predynastic period consists of a light silex blade, sculpted using a highly sophisticated technique, and an ivory handle featuring carved bas-relief scenes. It is one of the oldest known examples of bas-relief sculpture. The themes come from Nilotic as well as Mesopotamian traditions: animals, the hunt, lions overwhelmed by a figure, boats, and human combats.
A luxury object
Everything in this weapon illustrates luxury and technical expertise. The blade, made of extremely high-quality, light ocher slate, reflects an accomplished mastery of stone-cutting techniques. Parallel strips were removed on one side to form a regular pattern. The other side of the blade is simply polished. Small areas were reworked to form a sharp serrated edge.
Egyptian craftsmen used this meticulous technique for a short period only, between 3500 and 3200 BC.
This is the most accomplished example of the silex tool making technique. Analyses of the handle determined that it is made of a hippopotamus tooth. Only a small number of ivory dagger handles of this type, decorated with relief carving, exist. These were exceptional works, reserved to an elite.
Men and animals
The blade is set into a carved hippopotamus tooth and has a central knob with a hole for attaching a cord. On one side is a bearded figure wearing a cap, standing between and subduing two lions. Below are two domesticated dogs and wild animals; a hunter seems to be catching an antelope. The other side depicts combats arranged in several registers. At the top are quasi-nude men wearing penis sheaths, in hand-to-hand combat. At the bottom, dead bodies are strewn between two different types of boats, both in use in Egypt during the Naqada period.
A key work
Animal life, hunting, and boating on the Nile are ancient themes that had already appeared on ceramics and paintings during the Naqada Period.
The bas-relief carving that appeared at this time on large contemporaneous palettes depicted more dynamic and less static scenes than images on earlier traditional ceramic pieces.
Furthermore, the battle theme appeared toward the end of this period, which is why researchers have tried to find a narrative link to historical events.
Today they are interpreted more as referential images, a catalogue of themes that were important to the ruling class during a period when the Egyptian state was taking shape.
As is often the case, certain motifs are variations of those from the contemporaneous Mesopotamian culture, such as the bearded figure of the priest king (AO5718, AO5719) and the "Master of Animals" figure subduing two beasts.
Direct or indirect contacts certainly existed between the two civilizations. The design of superimposed registers and the conventions used to represent the human figure were used throughout the entire pharaonic period. This object illustrates the shift from the late predynastic period to the birth of the pharaonic civilization.
Statuette of a Hippopotamus, Middle Kingdom, Dynasty 12, ca. 1981–1885 B.C.
Egyptian; Middle Egypt, Meir Faience
This well-formed statuette of a hippopotamus demonstrates the Egyptian artist's appreciation for the natural world. It was molded in faience, a ceramic material made of ground quartz. Beneath the blue-green glaze, the body was painted with the outlines of river plants, symbolizing the marshes in which the animal lived.
The seemingly benign appearance that this figurine presents is deceptive. To the ancient Egyptians, the hippopotamus was one of the most dangerous animals in their world.
The huge creatures were a hazard for small fishing boats and other rivercraft. The beast might also be encountered on the waterways in the journey to the afterlife. As such, the hippopotamus was a force of nature that needed to be propitiated and controlled, both in this life and the next. This example was one of a pair found in a shaft associated with the tomb chapel of the steward Senbi II at Meir, a site about thirty miles south of modern Asyut. Three of its legs, originally broken to prevent the creature from harming the deceased, have been restored. The hippo was part of Senbi's burial equipment, which included a canopic box (also in the Museum), a coffin, and numerous models of boats and food production.
The seemingly benign appearance that this figurine presents is deceptive. To the ancient Egyptians, the hippopotamus was one of the most dangerous animals in their world.
There are suggestions that the Dagger was symbolic and a mark for WAR! See the correlation?
quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ its an example of contact: Mesopotamian traditions
But one only needs to look at the Narmer Palette to quickly understand the state of affairs between West Asians and Black Nilotic Africans.
Even at Nabta Playa there's evidence of West Asian influence.
^^Operating under your current troll name at the present Osirion, can you tell us the details and extent of your claimed "West Asian" influence at Nabata Playa? Don't switch to your other accounts. Go ahead and post an answer under Osirion. We'll wait...
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
^ West Asian goats and sheep. Clearly introduced from West Asia.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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posted
^West Asian goats and sheep could have easily been transported to Nabta Playa locals through Upper Egyptian middlemen. Even Upper Egyptians appear to have been active participants in importing West Asian domesticates (that is to say, imaginary 'civilisation bringing West Asians' are not needed). Those Caprines even skipped Lower Egypt, going straight to Upper Egypt via the Eastern Desert, further strengthening the above scenario, that the Upper Egyptians/Middle Nile area peoples imported those domesticates themselves.
posted
Indeed, and I am glad you add detail about the Caprines. As numerous scholars note, there was no mass influx of "West Asian" migrants to the Nile Valley re the appearance of certain domesticates. It should be noted that Africa also has its own breed of cattle that was domesticated as well, independently of West Asia. The most credible scenario is of the middlemen gradually incorporating certain imports of plants and animals into the Nile Valley on their own terms. The Chinese incorporated peanuts, potatoes and and corn from South America into their agricultural and saw increases in food production, but no mass migration of Mexicans or Peruvians migrated to China to bring these crops to the natives, nor was any migration necessary.
we know the quote- let's play it agaon: "Ovacaprines appear in the western desert before the Nile valley proper (Wendorf and Schild 2001). However, it is significant that ancient Egyptian words for the major Near Eastern domesticates - Sheep, goat, barley, and wheat - are not loans from either Semitic, Sumerian, or Indo-European. This argues against a mass settler colonization (at replacement levels) of the Nile valley from the Near East at this time. This is in contrast with some words for domesticates in some early Semitic languages, which are likely Sumerian loan words (Diakonoff 1981).. This evidence indicates that northern Nile valley peoples apparently incorporated the Near Eastern domesticates into a Nilotic foraging subsistence tradition on their own terms (Wetterstrom 1993). There was apparently no “Neolithic revolution” brought by settler colonization, but a gradual process of neolithicization (Midant-Reynes 2000)." -- Keita and Boyce, Genetics, Egypt, And History: Interpreting Geographical Patterns Of Y Chromosome Variation, History in Africa 32 (2005) 221-246r
Nabta Playa, and the Saharan Zone (which extends into the Sudan) is also important in the formation of the Nile Valley Civilization because of its religious foundations particularly the cattle cults. These indigenous religions were very different from those of West Asia, as several researchers note:
"A large number of gods go back to prehistoric times. The images of a cow and star goddess (Hathor), the falcon (Horus), and the human-shaped figures of the fertility god (Min) can be traced back to that period. Some rites, such as the "running of the Apis-bull," the "hoeing of the ground," and other fertility and hunting rites (e.g., the hippopotamus hunt) presumably date from early times.. Connections with the religions in southwest Asia cannot be traced with certainty."
"It is doubtful whether Osiris can be regarded as equal to Tammuz or Adonis, or whether Hathor is related to the "Great Mother." There are closer relations with northeast African religions. The numerous animal cults (especially bovine cults and panther gods) and details of ritual dresses (animal tails, masks, grass aprons, etc) probably are of African origin. The kinship in particular shows some African elements, such as the king as the head ritualist (i.e., medicine man), the limitations and renewal of the reign (jubilees, regicide), and the position of the king's mother (a matriarchal element). Some of them can be found among the Ethiopians in Napata and Meroe, others among the Prenilotic tribes (Shilluk)." (Encyclopedia Britannica 1984 ed. Macropedia Article, Vol 6: "Egyptian Religion" , pg 506-508)
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Indeed, and I am glad you add detail about the Caprines. As numerous scholars note, there was no mass influx of "West Asian" migrants to the Nile Valley re the appearance of certain domesticates. It should be noted that Africa also has its own breed of cattle that was domesticated as well, independently of West Asia. The most credible scenario is of the middlemen gradually incorporating certain imports of plants and animals into the Nile Valley on their own terms. The Chinese incorporated peanuts, potatoes and and corn from South America into their agricultural and saw increases in food production, but no mass migration of Mexicans or Peruvians migrated to China to bring these crops to the natives, nor was any migration necessary.
we know the quote- let's play it agaon: "Ovacaprines appear in the western desert before the Nile valley proper (Wendorf and Schild 2001). However, it is significant that ancient Egyptian words for the major Near Eastern domesticates - Sheep, goat, barley, and wheat - are not loans from either Semitic, Sumerian, or Indo-European. This argues against a mass settler colonization (at replacement levels) of the Nile valley from the Near East at this time. This is in contrast with some words for domesticates in some early Semitic languages, which are likely Sumerian loan words (Diakonoff 1981).. This evidence indicates that northern Nile valley peoples apparently incorporated the Near Eastern domesticates into a Nilotic foraging subsistence tradition on their own terms (Wetterstrom 1993). There was apparently no “Neolithic revolution” brought by settler colonization, but a gradual process of neolithicization (Midant-Reynes 2000)." -- Keita and Boyce, Genetics, Egypt, And History: Interpreting Geographical Patterns Of Y Chromosome Variation, History in Africa 32 (2005) 221-246r
Nabta Playa, and the Saharan Zone (which extends into the Sudan) is also important in the formation of the Nile Valley Civilization because of its religious foundations particularly the cattle cults. These indigenous religions were very different from those of West Asia, as several researchers note:
"A large number of gods go back to prehistoric times. The images of a cow and star goddess (Hathor), the falcon (Horus), and the human-shaped figures of the fertility god (Min) can be traced back to that period. Some rites, such as the "running of the Apis-bull," the "hoeing of the ground," and other fertility and hunting rites (e.g., the hippopotamus hunt) presumably date from early times.. Connections with the religions in southwest Asia cannot be traced with certainty."
"It is doubtful whether Osiris can be regarded as equal to Tammuz or Adonis, or whether Hathor is related to the "Great Mother." There are closer relations with northeast African religions. The numerous animal cults (especially bovine cults and panther gods) and details of ritual dresses (animal tails, masks, grass aprons, etc) probably are of African origin. The kinship in particular shows some African elements, such as the king as the head ritualist (i.e., medicine man), the limitations and renewal of the reign (jubilees, regicide), and the position of the king's mother (a matriarchal element). Some of them can be found among the Ethiopians in Napata and Meroe, others among the Prenilotic tribes (Shilluk)." (Encyclopedia Britannica 1984 ed. Macropedia Article, Vol 6: "Egyptian Religion" , pg 506-508)
Great post, and major exposure!
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^West Asian goats and sheep could have easily been transported to Nabta Playa locals through Upper Egyptian middlemen. Even Upper Egyptians appear to have been active participants in importing West Asian domesticates (that is to say, imaginary 'civilisation bringing West Asians' are not needed). Those Caprines even skipped Lower Egypt, going straight to Upper Egypt via the Eastern Desert, further strengthening the above scenario, that the Upper Egyptians/Middle Nile area peoples imported those domesticates themselves.
Try again.
Never said anything about mass migration. I said some cultural influnce is to be expected.
Another example (a more recent one) would be Camels from West Asia.
It means contact was made and there was trade.
One point that should be noted, is that there isn't a lot of evidence for megalithic societies in Africa. Nabta Playa is probably the only Neolithic example of an African megalithic society.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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posted
This is this woman's Thesis, who here read the full text of it? I am sure that the OP has not read the full text, if you read it...........or even a portion of it you can see there is nothing to really debunk.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
It is an unpublished thesis now, but you know the deal. Assorted "biodiversity" cultists are already beating the drum re the much touted, long awaited, "wandering Caucasoids." So let's recap the debunking of the cultists for the new readers.
SUMMARY Tropical African have variation in body breadth/mass in numerous ways:
a) Millennia of adaptation in the cool, monsoon-swept Sahara when it was a lush greenbelt before its arid phase, AND millennia of adaptation in the cool subtropical Medit zone of Egypt
b) Millennia as pioneers and operators advanced food production and forms of agriculture.
These factors cover the bases. No "Mediterraneans" or "Middle Easterners" are needed to give the natives diversity in body mass. in addition Africa's built in diversity also more than covers all bases:
(c) The vast built-in genetic diversity of Africa home of modern humanity- with the most genetic diversity on the planet
(d) Continual movement of numerous variants and blends of tropical African peoples and tribes out of the Saharan zone, East Africa etc into the Nile Valley. Mass influxes of "Middle Easterners" or bogus "Mediterraneans" are not needed to give tropical Africans diversity. Such outsiders were always present, particularly in the later stages but did not significantly affect the fundamental, overall core population for millennia.
RECAP THE 8 POINTS TO CONSIDER: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
per Raxter: "Ancient Egyptians as a whole generally exhibit intermediate body breadths relative to higher and lower latitude populations, with Lower Egyptians possessing wider body breadths, as well as lower brachial and crural indices, compared to Upper Egyptians and Upper Nubians. This may suggest that Egyptians are closely related to circum-Mediterranean and/or Near Eastern groups, but quickly developed limb length proportions more suited to their present very hot environments. These results may also reflect the greater plasticity of limb length compared to body breadth.
^1-- Actually it doesn't automatically "suggest" AEs are "closely related to circum-Mediterranean and/or Near Eastern groups." [/b] Connections between regions occurred in all eras but the body mass data also shows that the peoples of the Nile Valley had built-in native variation as expected for the many different climes of Africa. Tropical people adapted in Europe. They also adapted in the Nile Valley, as they did on East African mountains, as they did in humid jungle and dry savannah.
And as noted below, bi-ilac ranges/breadth are also correlated with several other things such as changes in diet and lifestyle as other scholars show. For example agriculturalists tend to have greater body breath than exclusively foraging/hunting peoples. It does not automatically follow that greather breadth ranges mean "circum-Mediterranean" relations. Rather the shift to more dynastic agriculture, from a more mixed pre- dynastic economy can well accommodate changes in body breath without the need for any mass influx of "Near Easterners."
Bi-iliac ranges are correlated with many things including thermoregulation and locomotion. They are also correlated with stature, and with a shift to agriculture. Hence an "intermediate" bi-iliac range could be easily due to any of the above, including a shift from the mixed economy pre-dynastics, to the more agricultural early dynastic/dynastic types.
QUOTES: "Furthermore bi-iliac breadth appears to change slowly over time, likely due to multiple factors (thermoregulation, obstetrics, locomotion) influencing its shape (Ruff 1994; Auerback 2007).."
"Generally narrower body breaths of the foragers contrast markedy with the wider-bodied agriculturalists. Although bi-iliac breadth has been argued to be stable over long periods of time (Auerbach, 2007), this shift in mean body breath may be indicative of changes correlated with subsistence economy."
"Any use of the bi-iliac breath/stature body mass estimations would inherently reflect changes in stature.."
"In this study, skeletal measures of body size were analysed to evaluate the long-term impact of the transition to agriculture in the Nile Valley.. Here we demonstrate that this transition is also associated with a modest reduction and subsequent improvement in stature and body mass. This trend could be broadly interpreted in the context of models of relationship between body size and nutrition." -- Pinhasi & Stock. 2011. Human Bioarchaeology of the Transition to Agriculture
And it should be noted that the pre-Dynastic Badari, who cluster with tropical Africans were ALREADY farming and stock-raising with some hunting/ foraging on the side. In other words, tropical African variants were ALREADY engaging in the agricultural practices that are correlated with greater bi-iliac ranges. "Diffusion" from the Middle East of plants such as wheat, is just that, diffusuion that was adopted by the indigenous tropical variants on their own terms. They could grow wheat or peas, on their own ground, without needing any "wandering Caucasoids" to be present. This is the precise point stated by Keita 2005,et al
QUOTE: Furthermore, the archaeology of northern Africa does not support demic diffusion of farming from the Near East. The evidence presented by Wetterstrom indicates that early African farmers in the Fayum initially incorporated Near Eastern domesticates into an INDIGENOUS foraging strategy, and only over time developed a dependence on horticulture. This is inconsistent with in-migrating farming settlers, who would have brought a more abrupt change in subsistence strategy. "The same archaeological pattern occurs west of Egypt, where domestic animals and, later, grains were gradually adopted after 8000 yr B.P. into the established pre-agricultural Capsian culture, present across the northern Sahara since 10,000 yr B.P. From this continuity, it has been argued that the pre-food-production Capsian peoples spoke languages ancestral to the Berber and/or Chadic branches of Afroasiatic, placing the proto-Afroasiatic period distinctly before 10,000 yr B.P." --Source: The Origins of Afroasiatic Christopher Ehret, S. O. Y. Keita, Paul Newman;, and Peter Bellwood Science 3 December 2004: Vol. 306. no. 5702, p. 1680 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PEr Raxter: 2--Stature regression equations derived from American Black populations may therefore not be appropriate to estimate the statures of ancient Egyptians.
^^In earlier studies (one of which Raxter herself did) US Blacks as a tropical people were used as a stand-in to estimate height of Ancient Egyptians. In those studies Black AMericans were found to cluster closer to Ancient Egyotians than EUropeans. That finding is not changed at all by Raxter's 2011 study. In fact, the new study AGAIN confirms that tropical peoples have similar limb proportions- hence Egyptians and Nubians cluster thereby.
Even if stature was over-estimated in earlier studies as Raxter claims, the data STILL showed US Blacks closer to AE proportions. Whether the use of US blacks is "appropriate" to estimate the statures of AEs makes little difference because in limb to limb comparison, the AE's are closer to the US blacks. Throw out the stature estimation task and this central result STILL stands.
Even if stature estimation is excluded the bottom line results are STILL the same- the AE's cluster more closely with US Blacks. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Per Raxter: 3-- but quickly developed limb length proportions more suited to their present very hot environments.
^^A misleading claim by Raxter. Actually limb length proportions do not "quickly" change, but are heavily genetically embedded.
Limb proportions DON'T "quickly" change. They are rather slow in fact. Hence tropical proportions found in the Nile Valley are not the product of "Mediterranean" or "Middle Eastern" migrants who "quickly" changed to "tropical Africans." Limb proportions don't work that way. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Per Raxter: 4-- The present results for bi-iliac breadth are also consistent with various genetic studies that have found modern Egyptians to have close affinities to Middle and Near Easterners (Manni et al., 2002; Arredi et al., 2004; Shepard and Herrera, 2006; Rowold et al., 2007) and Southern Europeans/Mediterranean groups (Capelli et al., 2006). ^^No surprise there. We all know MODERN Egyptians are not identical to the ancients and are more varied, a result that shows up in ancient samples as well. Note below that Zakrewski found one widely used sampling set was not at all typically Egyptian. And whether samples were pooled or not pooled in other studies MADE LITTLE DIFFERENCE. The AEs STILL cluster more with tropical Africans than Europeans or "Middle Easterners."
Some tail end sampling sets are not typical of Ancient Egypt.
Per Raxter 5--Some of these authors suggested their results may have been associated with a diffusion from the Near East during the expansion of early food-producing societies ^^Sure some plant and animal domesticates filtered into AE from the "Middle East." That was never at issue. But most of the archaelogical evidence shows no mass influx of "Caucasoids" or "circum-Mediterranean" types to instruct the natives. QUOTE:
Ovacaprines appear in the western desert before the Nile valley proper (Wendorf and Schild 2001). However, it is significant that ancient Egyptian words for the major Near Eastern domesticates - Sheep, goat, barley, and wheat - are not loans from either Semitic, Sumerian, or Indo-European. This argues against a mass settler colonization (at replacement levels) of the Nile valley from the Near East at this time. This is in contrast with some words for domesticates in some early Semitic languages, which are likely Sumerian loan words (Diakonoff 1981).. This evidence indicates that northern Nile valley peoples apparently incorporated the Near Eastern domesticates into a Nilotic foraging subsistence tradition on their own terms (Wetterstrom 1993). There was apparently no “Neolithic revolution” brought by settler colonization, but a gradual process of neolithicization (Midant-Reynes 2000). -- Keita and Boyce, Genetics, Egypt, And History: Interpreting Geographical Patterns Of Y Chromosome Variation, History in Africa 32 (2005) 221-246 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6--Ancient Egyptians "as a whole" Sure. If you lump in the more varied New Kingdom types and Hyskos/Roman era/Greek era types you will get more variation. Everyone knows the tail end period of AE had more variation. Even Zakrewski says that one tail-end series is not "typically" Egyptian. That was never at issue. What is at issue is the genesis and maintenance of the pre-Dynastic and early Dynastic period. Later periods were to have a more mixed pattern, The 12th Dynasty for example had several pharaohs of Nubian origin (Yurco 1989), as did the 18th, as did the 25th. Raxter is eager to highlight the "close links" with "circum-Mediterranean" types it seems, but not the other way.
Whether stature estimation is involved makes little difference. AEs STILL cluster more with Black Americans. ANd limb proportions do not "quickly" change. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7--RaXter's presentation doesnt make a dime's worth of difference on the fact that based on limb proportions, AEs cluster more towards Nubians and other tropical Africans than EUropeans or Middle Easterners. Body breath indexes are accounted for via dietary/economic shifts and do not necessarily point to any influx of "Middle Esterners" or "Mediterraneans"
Note how Raxter presents the data:
A-- It is admitted that the AEs have more tropical proportions. B-- It is admitted that the Nubians have even more tropical proportions. C-- But then the author quickly leaps to highlight body breath and talk about close links with Europe and the Mid East.
--In fact though, there are EVEN CLOSER links in A and B above than C, between Egytians and other Africans via limb proportions. Highlighting body breadth cannot obscure this reality.
And if body breadth is "intermediate"- half of the "close links" - then the second half of the body breath equation is with tropical Africans. If intermediate body breadths tell about Euro/Mid East Links, then THE OTHER HALF LIKEWISE SPEAKS OF AFRICAN LINKS. But how come Raxter never uses a consistent approach on this count - on the flip side?
Raxter's blanket claim of Egyotians as a whole is flawed. Her main data point is Lower Egypt. But even this varied over time. In the early period, the limb length proportions of northern samples, per Kemp cited above show more affinities with the Africans rather than the Europeans. Also flawed is Raxter's blanket notion of "quickly developing" tropical limb lengths, for which she offers little clear evidence. To the contrary, as other scholars show, limb proportions are relatively stable, genetically embedded, and do not quickly change.
If anything the weight of the overall Nile Valley picture also points to another alternative- that of tropical Africans with extreme proportions- having such proportions modified over the millennia by (a) cooler Mediterranean temperatures of Egypt, and (b) a shift to a more agricultural lifestyle.
The Egyptians are more similar to the Nubians via limb proportions. Both peoples are from warm climes as Raxter notes. Hence the link with US blacks on limb proportions, another tropical people from warm climes, and who have the same typical linear body build, IS NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST BIT AFFECTED. The limb proportion data still stands. Body mass variation is accounted for by (a) adaptation to cooler climates, and (b) a shift to more agriculture. This does not at all rule out small scale migration from the Levant/Maghreb. We all know it occurred, as well as trade links, prisoners taken in warfare from Palestine etc. But mass influxes of "Mediterraneans" or "Middle Easterners" are not at all needed to give the peoples of the Nile Valley diversity or variation in body mass.
8 -- Adaption to environment is another way tropical peoples may vary. Nasal shape for example can vary with the environment. Tropical Africans moving into the Egypt and staying millennia would not remain static without any changes caused by the environment.
Likewise in Europe, tropical African migrants gradually got lighter skin colors, under cooler more temperate climates or colder climates. There is no mass influx of cold-adapted Neanderthals needed to explain such routine adaptation. Tropical African variants adapted in temperate EUrope. ANd they adapted in the temperate Nile Valley and/or the much fluctuating Saharan climates in varying proportions. Tropical Africa it should also be noted has numerous micro-climates- from cold thin altitude cloud forest to sweltreing desert and junge. All these areas change people if they are there long enough, without the need for any outside migrants to explain why.
Tropical African have variation in body breadth/mass in numerous ways:
a) Millennia of adaptation in the cool, monsoon-swept Sahara when it was a lush greenbelt before its arid phase, AND millennia of adaptation in the cool subtropical Medit zone of Egypt
b) Millennia as pioneers and operators advanced food production and forms of agriculture.
These factors cover the bases. No "Mediterraneans" or "Middle Easterners" are needed to give the natives diversity in body mass. in addition Africa's built in diversity also more than covers all bases:
(c) The vast built-in genetic diversity of Africa home of modern humanity- with the most genetic diversity on the planet
(d) Continual movement of numerous variants and blends of tropical African peoples and tribes out of the Saharan zone, East Africa etc into the Nile Valley. Mass influxes of "Middle Easterners" or bogus "Mediterraneans" are not needed to give tropical Africans diversity. Such outsiders were always present, particularly in the later stages but did not significantly affect the fundamental, overall core population for millennia.
FINAL QUOTE:
"Generally narrower body breaths of the foragers contrast markedy with the wider-bodied agriculturalists. Although bi-iliac breadth has been argued to be stable over long periods of time (Auerbach, 2007), this shift in mean body breath may be indicative of changes correlated with subsistence economy."
"In this study, skeletal measures of body size were analysed to evaluate the long-term impact of the transition to agriculture in the Nile Valley.. Here we demonstrate that this transition is also associated with a modest reduction and subsequent improvement in stature and body mass. This trend could be broadly interpreted in the context of models of relationship between body size and nutrition."
-- Pinhasi & Stock. 2011 The Bioarchaeology of the Transition to Agriculture
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by astenb: This is this woman's Thesis, who here read the full text of it? I am sure that the OP has not read the full text, if you read it...........or even a portion of it you can see there is nothing to really debunk.
Indeed, which is why I never felt compelled to address any of the OP's arguments, and how they relate to the findings (not interpretations) of the paper. This is a perfect example of someone shooting himself in the foot, and actually debunking himself.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
^ Zarahan, You cave save the cut and paste though. It is a waste of space at this point. What I am asking is has anyone else actually READ some of the text of the Thesis?
There is no need to cut and paste in an attempt to debunk her Thesis when her paper offers nothing but more of the Same in reference to Egyptian Limbs being Tropically Adapted....this NEW paper does not change OLD measurements.
Also there are other areas in her paper that are far from stating what White Nord Highlighted in the areas she states as a conclusion.
I thought people were going to actually READ the information vs being "Spoon Fed" exactly what page to go to to find Point ABC.
The Thesis because of its NATURE is inherently "Afrocentric." We need to read it and point that out instead of dismissing the entire 300 pages. It is about time we do away with so much cutting and pasting and start putting things into our own words and listing sources. There has to be some NEW research and some NEW hypothesis. What is happening NOW is when people try to research Africana they see a same list of stuff on every search engine. It reduces the research pool of Africana data to an area that is actually QUITE SMALL on the internet. Anyone trying to learn something new just seems the SAME STUFF wherever they go. That is what is reallying going on with THIS Thread. .
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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