posted
Recently from exchanges with Garrig AKA Melchio7 and others Ive come to the conclusion that many people here have a certain view of the relationship between North Africa and her people and Africa below the Saharah known as Bilad es Sudan or "Western Sudan" for relevance to this topic..and her people.
This relationship usually mirrors that of Egypt and "Nubia" one of a Middle Eastern or Eurasian North and a Negriod/Negro South. The North is Dominant and South very rarely has a dominant role.
We have "Invasions of Egyptians" and in the case of Sudan/Mahgreb the Moroccan Invasion in 1590 by Al Mansur..
So to help people better understand the true role of Sudan and the Mahgeb Im having a conversation with Lioness..
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] ^^^ Yeah, but Honestly from reading the first few pages of Africans and Native Americans Lioness is on to something, but Im sure she will be equally shocked because according to forbes(and he back his claims up) The Term Negro was applied to "Black Africans, Indians of India, Native Americans, Japanese and Slaves of any color"
yes, the quote about Moors being "quite black" does not mean that they were of African descent or not of African descent in the context it was used it meant dark skin relative to Europeans.
Im gonna have to read more though...
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
To Lioness
Where is your proof that
1) the Moroccans invaded Songhai for Gold.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
2)The Invasion of Songhai is the reason that Moors were in Timbuctu when Adams arrived..
my remark was a generalized statement about what the Moors did to the Songhai
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
3) Explain the relationship between the Mehgreb and Sudan..
I've never heard of the Mehgreb, just the Mahgreb
UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA - AFRICAN STUDIES CENTER The Invasion of Morocco in1591 and the Saadian Dynasty [J. Michel]
An Examination of The Role of Europe in the Morocco Invasion of 1591 and the Rise to Power of the Saadian Dynasty
Jonathan Michel
December 1, 1995 The invasion of Sudan began from Marrakech on October 16, 1590. Al-Mansur, the Shariff of Morocco, ordered his best warriors to invade the Songhai Empire and capture the source of gold. Mulai Ahmad al-Mansur (the victorious) also known as al-Dhahabi (the golden one) was the ruler of Morocco from 1578 -1603. Under the command of Pasha Judar the troops marched south toward the desert. After a long and dangerous journey across th e Sahara they arrived in the Empire of Songhai. There the soldiers would enter in a series of battles adventures and emerge victorious. The well equipped Moroccan army captured many of the Empire's principal cities and forced the the Songhai leader to sur render. The source of gold remained outside their reach. The location of the mines were a secret known only to one tribe which lived along the southern Niger River and guarded by the silent trade.
You may be aware of the Book "The Golden Trade of the Moors"
Another interesting book:
On Trans-Saharan Trails: Islamic Law, Trade Networks, and Cross-Cultural Exchange in Nineteenth-Century Western Africa Ghislaine Lydon
.
and my response to her...
quote:I will have to do more research, I had read that in part of a Runoko Rashidi book.
Cool, Im still researching as well.
quote:my remark was a generalized statement about what the Moors did to the Songhai
So are you claiming that there were no "Moors" In Songhai or Timbuctu or that Moors did not fight for the Songhai??
quote:I've never heard of the Mehgreb, just the Mahgreb
Mehgreb/Mahgreb comes from the Semetic word "MRGB"
or M-'-r-b in Latin we add Vowels, Hence M"e"or M"a" and Greb for our latinized speach..
although you are right it's usually with an "a" vowel in "Mah"
quote:m-`-r-b <= `-r-b meaning dusk[y], crow, Arab, and is obviously the Semitic root ma`arab whence Maghreb pay attention to the final b. No west without it.
Sources: Richard S. Tomback A comparative Semitic Lexicon of the Phoenician and Punic Languages Missouri, Montana: Scholars Press, 1978
Francis Brown; S R Driver; Charles A Briggs A Hebrew and English lexicon of the Old Testament Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1906
Samuel Prideaux Tregelles Gesenius' Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Pub. Co., 1949 [1857]
Ill make a seperate tread..
I think this deserves a seperate thread...
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quote:my remark was a generalized statement about what the Moors did to the Songhai
Lioness, when you say "Moors did to Songhai" you support or uphold the idea that Moors=North Africans and Sonhai=Sudanis or "Negros" correct??
Further were Moors at all vital to Songhai, Sudan etc and vice versa?? and If so would it not be devastating to these Moors as well if their Intellectual center was destroyed??
If not..explain??
quote:The invasion of Sudan began from Marrakech on October 16, 1590. Al-Mansur, the Shariff of Morocco, ordered his best warriors to invade the Songhai Empire and capture the source of gold. Mulai Ahmad al-Mansur (the victorious) also known as al-Dhahabi (the golden one) was the ruler of Morocco from 1578 -1603. Under the command of Pasha Judar the troops marched south toward the desert. After a long and dangerous journey across th e Sahara they arrived in the Empire of Songhai. There the soldiers would enter in a series of battles adventures and emerge victorious. The well equipped Moroccan army captured many of the Empire's principal cities and forced the the Songhai leader to sur render. The source of gold remained outside their reach. The location of the mines were a secret known only to one tribe which lived along the southern Niger River and guarded by the silent trade
Gold was certainly a factor, but were there anyother reasons for the Invasion of Songhai??
Why were the Scholars of Timbuctu exiled In your opinion??
Also why was Morocco and the Mahgreb for that matter, after the invasion of Songhai, never again relevant nor as powerful as it once was in the past??
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posted
While I wait for Lioness(She might be sleeping..LOL) and if anyone want to chime in go ahead ....
let me give some facts..
First off, When it comes to the Western Sudan and Mahgreb Relationship, Western Sudan was never a Docile player. As a matter of fact most of the time she was a dominant player leading the role in Trade relations and establishing some of the most detailed Trade routes in history.
Old Ghana/Walatta
Let me start with Tilchtt because its foundation goes back to the B.C era.
quote:major trade route connected Ouadane with Oualata (Arabic: ولاته) (sometimes "Walata"), a ksar in the southeast part of the country. Oualata is believed to have been first settled by an agro-pastoral people akin to the Mandé Soninke who lived along the rocky promontories of the Tichitt-Oualata and Tagant cliffs of Mauritania. There, they built what are among the oldest stone settlements on the African continent.
The modern city was founded in the eleventh century, when it was part of the Ghana Empire. It was destroyed in 1076 but re-founded in 1224, and again became a major trading post for trans-Saharan trade and an important center of Islamic scholarship.
Oualata was a prosperous settlement, especially between the 14th and 18th centuries, such that it appeared on European maps. Trade was not its sole source of wealth; it had become a renowned intellectual center that attracted foreign students.
Old Ghana was very vital and probably the first entity to have considerable control on the Sahran Trade that was vital to both the Mahgreb and Sudan in terms of prosperity and power. This Empire's power was noted even by Andaluci and other non African Geographers and Merchants
Al, Bakri, Al-Masudi and Ibn Hakwal to name a few,
Moving on lets examine how the Megreb and Sudan relationship was during Old Ghana's time..
Not Only was Ghana Sophisticated, Powerful, and advance but the Empire was dominant in terms of the Mahgreb/Sudan and the Saharah. The Megrebi Berbers set up shop in Awdaghust and intermarried with Sonnike and other Sudani women they also assited the Ghana in their Wars etc.
So the relationship between Ghana and the Mahgreb was Mutual and both depended on each other.
The fact that despite the role of Islam and the fact that the king converted to Islam during the latter days of Ghana's history, her people and obviously Nobility resisted converting to Islam en masse. This speaks volumes to the Role Ghana played. You would be hard pressed to find any other Pagan Empire praised so highly by Muslims writers during this time.
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posted
Great thread! ^^BTW, the above citation would seem to be superseded by the publications of Conrad and Fisher (for instance, the Almoravids never "united against Ghana", and they obviously weren't a "racially mixed Hamitic people").
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
Another interesting book:
On Trans-Saharan Trails: Islamic Law, Trade Networks, and Cross-Cultural Exchange in Nineteenth-Century Western Africa Ghislaine Lydon
I have this book. Funny you cite it as Prof. Lydon's work does much to counter the phony divisions that people such as yourself try to create between Northern and "sub-Saharan" Africans. From the book:
quote:Muslim geographers named the region al-S _ah_ ra¯ ’, Arabic for “the Desert,” also referred to as al-S _ah_ ra¯ ’ al-Kubra¯ (or “the Great Desert”). They viewed it as an intermediate zone beyond which was the Bila¯d al-Suda¯n or “Land of the Blacks.” In an attempt to describe an area they barely understood, these early writers used this expression to discriminate between Africans so as to set apart “Blacks” from “Arabs” and “Berbers” of Muslim North Africa, recently incorporated into the abode of Islam (Da¯ r al-Isla¯m). The limits of an imaginary Bila¯d al-Suda¯n were redefined when a series of North African migrations, which began in earnest in the eleventh century [the Almoravids(?)], displaced many Saharan dwellers forced to migrate toward the southern desert edge. Ironically, some of these groups began identifying themselves as “Whites” (Bı¯d_a¯n) and speaking of a “Land of the Whites” (T_ ra¯b al-Bı¯d_ a¯n) united by the use of a common language, the Arabic-based H_ asa¯ nı¯ya.13 In the fifteenth century, Portuguese maritime explorers, vying for African gold, heralded a new age of imperialism. European explorers, and later colonial rulers, would reinvent Africa on their own terms by also applying a color line to their racial mappings of the continent.
--Page 6
and:
quote:For ages, the Sahara has been portrayed as an ‘empty-quarter’ where only nomads on their spiteful camels dare to tread. Colonial ethnographic templates reinforced perceptions about the Sahara as a ‘natural’ boundary between the North and the rest of Africa, separating ‘White’ and ‘Black’ Africa and, by extension, ‘Arabs’ and ‘Berbers’ from ‘Africans’. Consequently, very few scholars have ventured into the Sahara despite the overwhelming historical evidence pointing to the interactions, interdependencies and shared histories of neighbouring African countries. By transcending the artificial ‘Saharan frontier’, it is easy to see that the Sahara has always been a hybrid space of cross-cultural interactions marked by continuous flows of peoples, ideas and goods. This paper discusses a methodological approach for writing Saharan history which seeks to transcend this artificial divide and is necessarily transnational.
posted
^^^ Yes Sundjaita thanks for posting that because it relates to my next point...the idea of the Superior North Invading the Docile South..
This idea plays into the myth that the North or Africa was connected to Eurasia or Arabia etc. was superior and the South was docile and primitive and eventually was invaded and subjugated by the North.
However this is simply not true as You and Al-takruir have proved that is the Almoravid invasion of Ghana is false and mythical...
We do however know that the Almoravids originated around Senegal, and they incorporated Sudanis into their Armies. They also conquered Al-Andalucia as well as the Mahgreb..
So one can easily see the Almoravid conquest as a Sudani/Saharah/Berber unification and Invasion of Andalucia not Sudan.
For my evidence I provide..
1) The Almoravids wrote in the Mahgrebi Script on their Architecture rather than Andaluci. We know the Almoravids were familiar with andaluci script because the Almoravid Manuscripts found in Mauritania have some written in Andaluci.
2) The Almoravid Architecture to most Muslim Historians and Architects was "Plain" with little Decoration. This was not the case with Al Andalucia and her Architects but WAS the Case in the Mahgreb and Sudan(Ghana) where the Outer Facade are almost bare in decoration but the interior is heavily decorated.
This is seen in the Architecture of the Sonnike Builders at Oulata..
Now alot of the Almoravid architectue was destroyed by the Almohads but we can compare to Almoravid Architecture to Berber and Sudani Style with The Almoravid Koubba in Merrakesh..
Now notice the Exterior is plain..however the interior is where the decoration is..
quote:The interior is richly decorated with floral patterns (pine cones, palms and acanthus leaves) and calligraphy. The epigraphic decoration, which covers the frames and borders, is noteworthy for the fact that the foundation inscription is the oldest inscription in cursive Maghrebi script in North Africa. Materials used are marble and cedar wood. At the entrance and at the top of the prayer room is the inscription:
I was created for science and prayer, by the prince of the believers, descendant of the prophet, Abdallah, most glorious of all Caliphs. Pray for him when you enter the door, so that you may fulfill your highest hopes.
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The Almoravid Koubba is also influenced by Andalucian Architecture styles, yet it is not as elaborate. The Almoravid approach In my opinion shows a fusion of Mahgrebi and Sudani ideas fused with Andalucian styles and ideas.
To get a better understanding Ill present the kasbah and Ksour, or fortefied towns of Morocco and Mali etc.
The kasbah and Ksar are Adobe style architecture of the Berbers or Morocco. This Style is one of the best examples of Berber Architecture style..
Some Examples..
Another Berber architecture style the Tighremt
High Atlas region Morocco
Draa Valley
Notice the Plain exterior and compare it to the Almoravid Koubba, also notice the subtle influence of Sonnoki and other Sudani style of Oulata etc.
posted
Now that I introduced the Amazigh style of the Tighremt and Ksar of the Amazigh or Morocco let me show you how Sudani Architects were inspired by this African Berber style...
From Jenne..
As you can see both the Sudani and Magreb influenced each other. This style of architecture is unique to the Western region of Africa and was reflected in Almoravid architecture.
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posted
So I take it Lioness is not going to explain herself further..??
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posted
^ You mean the lyinass worm. She's probably figuring a way to wriggle out of this one.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^ Yes Sundjaita thanks for posting that because it relates to my next point...the idea of the Superior North Invading the Docile South..
This idea plays into the myth that the North or Africa was connected to Eurasia or Arabia etc. was superior and the South was docile and primitive and eventually was invaded and subjugated by the North.
However this is simply not true as You and Al-takruir have proved that is the Almoravid invasion of Ghana is false and mythical...
We do however know that the Almoravids originated around Senegal, and they incorporated Sudanis into their Armies. They also conquered Al-Andalucia as well as the Mahgreb..
So one can easily see the Almoravid conquest as a Sudani/Saharah/Berber unification and Invasion of Andalucia not Sudan....
I was just going to say all this. The Zenaga or Sanhaja roots of the Moors lay in the SOUTH. So Moorish expansion was the opposite of the Euronut tradition-- it was SOUTH to NORTH.
Have any of you guys read the book Sahara: A Natural History by Marq de Villiers and Sheila Hirtle? It has some really good info on the historical relationship between Mahgreb and western Sudan. Here is what it says about the early history of the Maghreb vs. the western Sudan:
Farther to the west, there were no indigenous organized states or political confederations in the northern Sahara until the Arabs arrived in the seventh century A.D. The indigenous people were the Berbers, who lived in and on the fringes of the northwestern Sahara...
On the southern fringes of the desert were the greatest empires of Old Africa, whose stories are only now beginning to emerge in their fullness. The settled cultures along the southern rim date back as far as Egypt, and owe their flowering, at least in part, to the same grim fact of climate change: Adversity bred ingenuity, ingenuity bred technology and thus an increasing population, population bred organized politics, and the Sahara, in the progression, bred empire...
This begs the question, how at least in the western part of Africa can the north be 'superior' if the south was politically organized first??
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posted
أبو حفص المرتضى عمر بن أبي إبراهيم اسحاق بن يوسف بن عبد المؤمن; Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada
Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada died 1266) was an Almohad caliph who reigned in part of Morocco from 1248 until his death. a portrait done in his lifetime commissioned by Castilian monarch Alfonso X (23 November 1221 – 4 April 1284)
Islam In Mali, Songhai and the Sudan Coming of the Almoravids
The Almoravids were a Berber dynasty of Morocco, who formed an empire in the 11th-century that stretched over the western Maghreb and Al-Andalus. Their capital was Marrakesh, a city which they founded in 1062 C.E. The Almoravid dynasty originated from a religious and political movement founded by the Berber tribes of the southern Sahara around 1039. A Malikite jurist named ‘Abd Allah ibn Yasin went into the desert to preach religious and moral reform to the tribes of the Sahara at the behest of the leader of the Gdala tribe. Ibn Yasin gathered his disciples in a ribat, which was both a spiritual retreat and a base for jihad. He gave them the name of murabitun (the people of the ribat), which became “Almoravids” when transcribed into European languages. He made an alliance with another powerful tribe, the Lamtuna, and set out to conquer the Sahara and western Maghreb, following the Trans-Saharan trade routes. He was able to take Sijilmasa (1054) and Aghmat (1058) but lost his life in a battle against the Barghwata of the Atlantic plains in 1059. After his death, power came into the hands of Abu Bakr ibn ‘Umar who started the conquest of the kingdom of Ghana (in today’s southern Mauritania). His lieutenant and successor Yusuf ibn Tashfin came into power around 1070 and expanded Almoravid territories through the conquest of the western half of the Maghreb as far as Algiers (1083). He founded his new capital at Marrakech in 1070 and proclaimed himself Emir of the Muslims. This new title allowed him to legitimize his position, while recognising the Abbasid caliphate in Baghdad and respecting the principal of unity of the caliphate so dear to the Malikite jurists.
Ghana
Although originally a diverse settlement of agro-pastoralists, the Ghana empire was soon dominated by the Soninké, a Mandé speaking people. The Soninké kings never fully adopted Islam, but the empire had good relations with Muslim traders. Nevertheless, the Ghana Empire fell in 1078 as a result of inter-dynastic turmoil and a sweeping change in political structure, likely attributable to Almoravid intervention. Ghana survived in a diminished form until Kumbi Saleh was destroyed in 1203 by a former vassal state, the anti-Muslim Sosso Kingdom, which ultimately controlled the southern portions of the former Ghana Empire.
Mali's early history was dominated by three famed West African empires-- Ghana, Mali or "Manden Kurufa", and Songhay. These empires controlled trans-Saharan trade in gold, salt, and other precious commodities and were in touch with Mediterranean and Middle Eastern centers of civilization. All of the empires arose in the area then known as the western Sudan, a vast region of savanna between the Sahara Desert to the north and the tropical rain forests along the Guinean coast to the south. All were characterized by strong leadership (matrilineal) and kin-based societies. None had rigid geopolitical boundaries. The early Islamic penetration of Africa was limited to the north, across Egypt and the Maghrib. By the 13th century, however, the religion had travelled further south, through the work of missionaries and along trade routes, into sub-Saharan Africa. The gold kingdoms of West Africa were one area in which Islam established itself.
The Kingdom of Mali soon filled the void left by the collapse of Ghana, and some of Mali's leaders adopted the religion brought by the invading Almoravids - Islam. Because the Kingdom of Mali controlled all three of the main gold fields in West Africa, whereas Ghana had controlled only one, it grew very wealthy and Timbuktu rose as a major trading city. The most influential and memorable ruler of Mali was Mansa Musa, who ruled from 1312 to 1337, over what has been called the "Golden Age" of Mali. He is generally credited with solidifying the presence of Islam in West Africa, which until his rule was present only in missions and Muslim trading posts, although the religion still had little influence on the general population. As well, Mansa Musa was instrumental in expanding his kingdom's gold trade to the Mediterranean, through increased trading ties with the Merinid empire in North Africa and the Mamluks in Egypt. Mansa Musa is also well known for his pilgrimage to Mecca, which he undertook in 1324. It was reported in sources of the time that he brought 60,000 followers, 500 slaves, and 80 camels with him, all carrying gold. Passing through Tripoli and Cairo, among other cities, also helped in developing trade relationships with foreign cities, because Mali's wealth in gold did not go unnoticed. The Kingdom of Ghana had ruled much of West Africa, and had controlled much of the gold and salt trade in the region, immediately prior to the arrival of Islam. This kingdom covered a wide expanse of territory in West Africa, but it must be noted that it did not correspond to the territory of the present-day country of Ghana. The spread of the Muslim Almoravids from Morocco into Ghana in the mid-11th century marked the beginning of Ghana's downfall, and by the 13th century it had completely disappeared as a state. Timbuktu's importance continued to grow as the Kingdom of Mali faded under the increasing power of one of Mali's subject peoples, the Songhai. The Songhai empire, which had completely eclipsed Mali by the late 14th century, was the last of what has been called the "Great Three" West African empires - after Ghana and Mali. Songhai built upon the existing Islamic tradition established by the Kingdom of Mali, and most of Songhai's 17 kings, the administrators, and the bureaucrats in urban centres were Muslim.
In the history of Sudan, the coming of Islam eventually changed the nature of Sudanese society and facilitated the division of the country into north and south. The spread of Islam began shortly after the Prophet Muhammad's death in 632. By that time, he and his followers had converted most of Arabia's tribes and towns to Islam, which Muslims maintained united the individual believer, the state, and society under God's will. Islamic rulers, therefore, exercised temporal and religious authority. Islamic law (sharia), which was derived primarily from the Qur'an, encompassed all aspects of the lives of believers, who were called Muslims ("those who submit" to God's will). Within a generation of Muhammad's death, Arab armies had carried Islam north and west from Arabia into North Africa. Muslims imposed political control over conquered territories in the name of the caliph (the Prophet's successor as supreme earthly leader of Islam). The Islamic armies won their first North African victory in 643 in Tripoli (in modern Libya). However, the Muslim subjugation of all of North Africa took about seventy-five years. The Arabs invaded Nubia in 642 and again in 652, when they laid siege to the city of Dunqulah and destroyed its cathedral. The Nubians put up a stout defense, however, causing the Arabs to accept an armistice and withdraw their forces.
Sudan represents and earier period of Isamic conquest of North Africa. Contacts between Nubians and Arabs long predated the coming of Islam, but the arabization of the Nile Valley was a gradual process that occurred over a period of nearly 1,000 years. Arab nomads continually wandered into the region in search of fresh pasturage, and Arab seafarers and merchants traded in Red Sea ports for spices and slaves. Intermarriage and assimilation also facilitated arabization. After the initial attempts at military conquest failed, the Arab commander in Egypt, Abd Allah ibn Saad, concluded the first in a series of regularly renewed treaties with the Nubians that, with only brief interruptions, governed relations between the two peoples for more than 600 years. This treaty was known as the baqt. So long as Arabs ruled Egypt, there was peace on the Nubian frontier; however, when non-Arabs (for example, the Mamluks) acquired control of the Nile Delta, tension arose in Upper Egypt. The Arabs realized the commercial advantages of peaceful relations with Nubia and used the baqt to ensure that travel and trade proceeded unhindered across the frontier. The baqt also contained security arrangements whereby both parties agreed that neither would come to the defense of the other in the event of an attack by a third party. The baqt obliged both to exchange annual tribute as a goodwill symbol, the Nubians in slaves and the Arabs in grain. This formality was only a token of the trade that developed between the two, not only in these commodities but also in horses and manufactured goods brought to Nubia by the Arabs and in ivory, gold, gems, gum arabic, and cattle carried back by them to Egypt or shipped to Arabia. Acceptance of the baqt did not indicate Nubian submission to the Arabs, but the treaty did impose conditions for Arab friendship that eventually permitted Arabs to achieve a privileged position in Nubia. Arab merchants established markets in Nubian towns to facilitate the exchange of grain and slaves. Arab engineers supervised the operation of mines east of the Nile in which they used slave labor to extract gold and emeralds. Muslim pilgrims en route to Mecca traveled across the Red Sea on ferries from Aydhab and Suakin, ports that also received cargoes bound from India to Egypt. Traditional genealogies trace the ancestry of most of the Nile Valley's mixed population to Arab tribes that migrated into the region during this period. Even many non-Arabic-speaking groups claim descent from Arab forebears. The two most important Arabic-speaking groups to emerge in Nubia were the Ja'Alin and the Juhayna. Both showed physical continuity with the indigenous pre-Islamic population. The former claimed descent from the Quraysh, the Prophet Muhammad's tribe. Historically, the Jaali have been sedentary farmers and herders or townspeople settled along the Nile and in Al Jazirah. The nomadic Juhayna comprised a family of tribes that included the Kababish, Baqqara, and Shukriya. They were descended from Arabs who migrated after the 13th century into an area that extended from the savanna and semidesert west of the Nile to the Abyssinian foothills east of the Blue Nile. Both groups formed a series of tribal shaykhdoms that succeeded the crumbling Christian Nubian kingdoms and that were in frequent conflict with one another and with neighboring non-Arabs. In some instances, as among the Beja, the indigenous people absorbed Arab migrants who settled among them. Beja ruling families later derived their legitimacy from their claims of Arab ancestry. Although not all Muslims in the region were Arabic-speaking, acceptance of Islam facilitated the Arabizing process. There was no policy of proselytism, however. Islam penetrated the area over a long period of time through intermarriage and contacts with Arab merchants and settlers. The western Sanhaja had been converted to Islam sometime in the 9th C. They were subsequently united in the 10th C., and with the zeal of neophyte converts launched several campaigns against the "Sudanese" (pagan black peoples of sub-Saharan Africa). Under their king Tinbarutan ibn Usfayshar, the Sanhaja Lamtuna erected (or captured) the citadel of Awdaghust, a critical stop on the trans-Saharan trade route.
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posted
^^^^ Instead of Copy N pastine why not explain your beliefs/ideas so we can have an open and intellectual conversation..
quote:my remark was a generalized statement about what the Moors did to the Songhai
Lioness, when you say "Moors did to Songhai" you support or uphold the idea that Moors=North Africans and Sonhai=Sudanis or "Negros" correct??
Further were Moors at all vital to Songhai, Sudan etc and vice versa?? and If so would it not be devastating to these Moors as well if their Intellectual center was destroyed??
If not..explain??
quote:The invasion of Sudan began from Marrakech on October 16, 1590. Al-Mansur, the Shariff of Morocco, ordered his best warriors to invade the Songhai Empire and capture the source of gold. Mulai Ahmad al-Mansur (the victorious) also known as al-Dhahabi (the golden one) was the ruler of Morocco from 1578 -1603. Under the command of Pasha Judar the troops marched south toward the desert. After a long and dangerous journey across th e Sahara they arrived in the Empire of Songhai. There the soldiers would enter in a series of battles adventures and emerge victorious. The well equipped Moroccan army captured many of the Empire's principal cities and forced the the Songhai leader to sur render. The source of gold remained outside their reach. The location of the mines were a secret known only to one tribe which lived along the southern Niger River and guarded by the silent trade
Gold was certainly a factor, but were there anyother reasons for the Invasion of Songhai??
Why were the Scholars of Timbuctu exiled In your opinion??
Also why was Morocco and the Mahgreb for that matter, after the invasion of Songhai, never again relevant nor as powerful as it once was in the past??
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posted
One of the reasons for the Moroccan invasion was partly because of an earlier invasion of Moroccan territory by the Songhay.
In the early 14th century the rulers of Mali managed to maintain some control over the routes leading these mines from the south. By the end of the following century, the askias of Songhay, which had superceded superceded Mali as the dominant power in Western Africa, extended their rule even further in the desert and appointed a governor in Taghaza. However, in 1544, Sultan Muhammad al-Mahdi, the founder of Sa'did power in Morocco, demanded the ruler of Songhay, askia Ishaq I, to give him the mines. Askia Ishaq naturally refused to do it, and a war broke out. The Moroccans sent an army to occupy Taghaza, but the army was destroyed in the desert. As response to this, a Songhay army consisting of Tuaregs, attacked northwards and sacked the southern parts of Morocco, forcing Sultan Muhammad to flee from Marrakesh. The above was referenced from both Markellion and Rastlivewire http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/the-so-called-arab-conquest-of-africa-is-a-mythology/
P. 40 quote from Yaqut
"The king of Zafun is stronger than the veiled people of the Maghreb and more versed in the art o kingship. The veiled people acknowledge his superiority over them, obey him and resort to him in all important matters of governmentOne year the king, on his way to the pilgrimage, came to the Maghreb to pay a visit to the commander of the Muslims, the veiled king of the Maghreb, of the tribe of Lamtuna. The Commander of the Muslims met him on foot, wheras the king of Zafun did not dismount for him."
page 44
From Ibn Sa'id
"This sultan has authority there over kingdoms such as those of the Tajuwa, Kawar, and FazzanGod has assisted him and he has many descendants and armies. His clothes are brought to him from the capital of Tunish. He has scholars around him
The region where Zaghawa wander is to the east of Manan. They are for the most part Muslims owing obedience to the sultan of KanimTo the north of Manan are the terrirory of the Kanim the Akawwar wander. Their well-known towns are in the Second Clime and they are Muslims owing obedience to the sultan of Kanim"
page 45
"There is no town worthy of mention in this section (second climate) except for Awdaghust. A mixture of Muslim Berbers inhabits it, but authority rests with the Sanhaja. There is an account of this town and its ruler in al-Bakri. It is on the line of the Second Clime in longitude 22 degrees. In the same latitude is Zafun, which belongs to pagan Sudan and whose ruler enjoys a good reputation among (other) kings of the Sudan"
Page 99 from Ibn Khaldun
"Sultan Abul-Hasan was well known for his ostentatious ways and his presumption to vie with the mightiest monarchs and adopt their customs in exchanging gifts with their peers and counterparts and dispatching emissaries to distant kings and far frontiers. In his time the king of Mali was the greatest of the kings of the Sudan and the nearest to his kingdom in the Maghrib. Mali was 100 stages distant from the southern frontiers of his realms" http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:PtuGhgrLYQsJ:www.amazon.com/Medieval-West-Africa-Scholars-Merchants/product-reviews/155876304X+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk It wouldn't hurt to clik the accompanying vid on the link.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^^ Instead of Copy N pastine why not explain your beliefs/ideas so we can have an open and intellectual conversation..
quote:my remark was a generalized statement about what the Moors did to the Songhai
Lioness, when you say "Moors did to Songhai" you support or uphold the idea that Moors=North Africans and Songhai=Sudanis or "Negros" correct??
Further were Moors at all vital to Songhai, Sudan etc and vice versa?? and If so would it not be devastating to these Moors as well if their Intellectual center was destroyed??
If not..explain??
you mixing up two things. There was a time when Mali and Songhai were various tribal people with indigenous culture religions. This is a lost unrecorded history. The Islamic conquest of NA itself. we have no cotemporary record of it. accounts come later. The first invasion of North Africa, ordered by the caliph, was launched in 647. Marching from Medina, Arabia, 20,000 Arabs were joined in Memphis, Egypt, by another 20,000 and led into the Byzantine Exarchate of Africa by Abdallah ibn al-Sa’ad. Tripolitania in what is modern Libya was taken.The Islamic conquest of North Africa of Umayyad is around 647. The motive was expansion of an empire and acquistion of resources, gold, salt, slaves and to a lesser extent convert people to their montheistic way of thinking. They sometimes let the people continue their "pagan" ways to an extent, as long as the Muslim leadership had estabished control of the region.
In later Muslim conquest periods West Africa is conquered
Mali was once part of three famed West African empires which controlled trans-Saharan trade in gold, salt, slaves, and other precious commodities.These Sahelian kingdoms had neither rigid geopolitical boundaries nor rigid ethnic identities.The earliest of these empires was the Ghana Empire, which was dominated by the Soninke, a Mande-speaking people. The nation expanded throughout West Africa from the 8th century until 1078, when it was conquered by the Almoravids. The Mali Empire later formed on the upper Niger River, and reached the height of power in the 14th century. Under the Mali Empire, the ancient cities of Djenné and Timbuktu were centers of both trade and Islamic learning.The empire later declined as a result of internal intrigue, ultimately being supplanted by the Songhai Empire. The Songhai people originated in current northwestern Nigeria. The Songhai had long been a major power in West Africa subject to the Mali Empire's rule. In the late 14th century, the Songhai gradually gained independence from the Mali Empire and expanded, ultimately subsuming the entire eastern portion of the Mali Empire. The Songhai Empire's eventual collapse was largely the result of a Moroccan invasion in 1591, under the command of Judar Pasha. The fall of the Songhai Empire marked the end of the region's role as a trading crossroads. Following the establishment of sea routes by the European powers, the trans-Saharan trade routes lost significance. One of the worst famines in the region's recorded history occurred in the 18th century. According to John Iliffe, "The worst crises were in the 1680s, when famine extended from the Senegambian coast to the Upper Nile and 'many sold themselves for slaves, only to get a sustenance', and especially in 1738–56, when West Africa's greatest recorded subsistence crisis, due to drought and locusts, reportedly killed half the population of Timbuktu." _________________________________________________________
"Moors" are not a distinct or self-defined people. Medieval and early modern Europeans applied the name primarily to Berbers, but also at various times to Arabs and Muslim Iberians. Mainstream scholars observed in 1911 that "The term 'Moors' has no real ethnological value. In 711 CE, the now Islamic Moors conquered Visigothic Christian Hispania. This is the beginning of al-Andalus, the power center in Spain. Later Islamic pentration into West Africa are in this context.
Starting out as a seasonal settlement, Timbuktu became a permanent settlement early in the 12th century. After a shift in trading routes, Timbuktu flourished from the trade in salt, gold, ivory and slaves and became part of the Mali Empire early in the 13th century. In the first half of the 15th century the Tuareg tribes took control of the city for a short period until the expanding Songhay Empire absorbed the city in 1468. A Moroccan army defeated the Songhay in 1591, and made Timbuktu, rather than Gao, their capital. The invaders established a new ruling class, the arma, who after 1612 became independent of Morocco. However, the golden age of the city was over and it entered a long period of decline. In its Golden Age, the town's numerous Islamic scholars and extensive trading network made possible an important book trade: together with the campuses of the Sankore madrassah, an Islamic university, this established Timbuktu as a scholarly centre in Africa.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Why were the Scholars of Timbuctu exiled In your opinion??
Because of our Moorish friends:
Following the Battle of Tondibi, the city was captured on 30 May 1591 by an expedition of mercenaries and slaves, dubbed the Arma. They were sent by the Saadi ruler of Morocco, Ahmad I al-Mansur, and were led by Judar Pasha in search of gold mines. The Arme brought the end of an era of relative autonomy. The following period brought economic and intellectual decline. In 1593, Ahmad I al-Mansur cited 'disloyalty' as the reason for arresting, and subsequently killing or exiling, many of Timbuktu's scholars, including Ahmad Baba.] Perhaps the city's greatest scholar, he was forced to move to Marrakesh because of his intellectual opposition to the Pasha, where he continued to attract the attention of the scholarly world. Ahmad Baba later returned to Timbuktu, where he died in 1608. The city's decline continued, with the increasing trans-atlantic trade routes – transporting African slaves, including leaders and scholars of Timbuktu – marginalising Timbuktu's role as a trade and scholarly centerPosts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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In later Muslim conquest periods West Africa is conquered
When and where did this occur? Unless you're referring to the Fulani Jihads, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.
quote:Mali was once part of three famed West African empires which controlled trans-Saharan trade in gold, salt, slaves, and other precious commodities.These Sahelian kingdoms had neither rigid geopolitical boundaries nor rigid ethnic identities.The earliest of these empires was the Ghana Empire, which was dominated by the Soninke, a Mande-speaking people. The nation expanded throughout West Africa from the 8th century until 1078, when it was conquered by the Almoravids.
This has been proven as untrue in recent decades (see Conrad and Fisher, Insoll, Lange, etc.). All that is is regurgitated medieval Arab mythology. Refer to the Egyptsearch archives for previous discussions.
quote: The Songhai had long been a major power in West Africa subject to the Mali Empire's rule. In the late 14th century, the Songhai gradually gained independence from the Mali Empire and expanded, ultimately subsuming the entire eastern portion of the Mali Empire. The Songhai Empire's eventual collapse was largely the result of a Moroccan invasion in 1591, under the command of Judar Pasha.
This had nothing to do with the Muslim expansion first of all and second of all, Morocco pulled out after 20 years and the ruling Arma class who remained in Timbuktu only exerted their authority as far south as Djenne (the Songhai had since moved their capital to Dendi). What does this have to do with any "conquest of West Africa"? In fact, one of the Pasha's from Timbuktu was killed in an early raid by one of the Askiya's from Dendi who severed the head of the Pasha for it to be on display in Kebbi for the kinfolk in Hausaland (where many of the Askiyas were originally from).
How's that for a "conquest of West Africa"?
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Mansa Musa's crowning achievment was bringing an entourage including 12,000 slaves, to pay tribute to Arabia
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Mansa Musa paid tribute to no one and merely brought gifts. In fact, there is an anecdote about Musa concerning his encounters in Egypt with the Mamluk Sultan, whereby Musa refused to pay homage to him by kneeling and kissing his shoe, claiming (and I'm paraphrasing) that he kneels before no one but god, after which the Sultan accepted him as his equal and offered him a seat.
In addition, the Malians themselves were shrewd tradesmen. It is reported that Musa's entourage went wild in Egypt, buying everything in sight but quickly went broke because the Egyptians took advantage of their excitement by overpricing all of the market products and the Malians had to sell back everything they'd bought at half price and borrow just to get home. When they got home, the Malians remembered the greed of the Egyptians and nobody paid back the creditors except Musa himself (who only partially compensated his creditor) and after that, Mali switched the priority of their trade allegiances to Morocco, leaving Egypt to deal with a recession.
So clearly you have no idea what you're talking about, as usual. Not that your distortion of history has anything to do with the above as quoted.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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^^^^ makes the religious pilgrimage of a devout Muslim to the holiest site in Islam seem like a shopping spree.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: When an empire collapses there is no reversion to tribes. What remains are the various nations/states that comprised the empire.
If somebody thinks they have a better outline of thefollowing please post:
The invasion of Sudan began from Marrakech on October 16, 1590. Al-Mansur, the Shariff of Morocco, ordered his best warriors to invade the Songhai Empire and capture the source of gold. Mulai Ahmad al-Mansur (the victorious) also known as al-Dhahabi (the golden one) was the ruler of Morocco from 1578 -1603.
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quote:In addition, the Malians were shrewd tradesmen. It is reported that Musa's entourage went wild in Egypt, buying everything in sight but quickly went broke because the Egyptians took advantage of their excitement by overpricing all of the market products and the Malians had to sell back everything they'd bought at half price and borrow just to get home. When they got home, the Malians remembered the greed of the Egyptians and nobody paid back the creditors except Musa himself (who only partially compensated his creditor) and after that, Mali cut economic ties with Egypt and switched their trade allegiances to Morocco, leaving Egypt to deal with a recession.
Great piece of info to have and yes there was no conquest of West Africa as being suggested by lioness nor was there any over lordship from either Arabia or north African powers see the Pagan King of Zufun punking the leader of the Muslim above the link said that the Berbers were his slaves,or the fact that the Kenem carved out territory deep in the Fezzan, the people above the Sahara were converted due to military conquest not so the people of the Sahel they chose or chose not to, they had the armies to keep just about anyone at bay.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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naturally many of the people of West Africa who saw the organizational power Umayyad armies decided to join them rather than beat them, proxy Moorish warriors led by Arabs
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:naturally many of the people of West Africa who saw the organizational power Umayyad armies decided to join them rather than beat them, proxy Moorish warriors led by Arabs
Or maybe the conversation went something like this: We going waay up north take white folks stuff you want in on the action?
In any case I don't think they were over awed by either Arabs or coastal north Africans many did became Muslims for it suited good trade relations a few became even good Muslims unlike Sonni Ali Ber,who is known for his rootlessness against Muslims causing many of them to flee Timbuktu.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:There was a time when Mali and Songhai were various tribal people with indigenous culture religions. This is a lost unrecorded history. The Islamic conquest of NA itself. we have no cotemporary record of it. accounts come later. The first invasion of North Africa, ordered by the caliph, was launched in 647. Marching from Medina, Arabia, 20,000 Arabs were joined in Memphis, Egypt, by another 20,000 and led into the Byzantine Exarchate of Africa by Abdallah ibn al-Sa’ad. Tripolitania in what is modern Libya was taken.The Islamic conquest of North Africa of Umayyad is around 647. The motive was expansion of an empire and acquistion of resources, gold, salt, slaves and to a lesser extent convert people to their montheistic way of thinking. They sometimes let the people continue their "pagan" ways to an extent, as long as the Muslim leadership had estabished control of the region.
I don't understand how this pertains to my questions directed at you but ill play along..
You whole premise is against Islam replacing native Religions, Im assuming by this is where you mean "conquered" here..
quote:In later Muslim conquest periods West Africa is conquered
Because if not you are simply spouting off at the mouth with no direct evidence to back up your claims. Further even if Islam displaced the native people of Western Africa both in the North and South, it still does not mean that these African people controlled and maintained power for a considerable time.
In North Africa the Berbers held considerable sway during the Andaluci periods, When untied their Armies were more effective than European, Arabs, Saqalibba etc peoples. During Almoravid and Almohad periods you had parts of the Sudan and Megreb united. Further even as late as Mali you had princes and Kings who were non Muslim.
quote:"Moors" are not a distinct or self-defined people. Medieval and early modern Europeans applied the name primarily to Berbers, but also at various times to Arabs and Muslim Iberians. Mainstream scholars observed in 1911 that "The term 'Moors' has no real ethnological value.
If this is the case then why do you claim this in your very next post..
quote:Because of our Moorish friends:
Following the Battle of Tondibi, the city was captured on 30 May 1591 by an expedition of mercenaries and slaves, dubbed the Arma. They were sent by the Saadi ruler of Morocco, Ahmad I al-Mansur, and were led by Judar Pasha in search of gold mines. The Arme brought the end of an era of relative autonomy. The following period brought economic and intellectual decline. In 1593, Ahmad I al-Mansur cited 'disloyalty' as the reason for arresting, and subsequently killing or exiling, many of Timbuktu's scholars, including Ahmad Baba.] Perhaps the city's greatest scholar, he was forced to move to Marrakesh because of his intellectual opposition to the Pasha, where he continued to attract the attention of the scholarly world. Ahmad Baba later returned to Timbuktu, where he died in 1608. The city's decline continued, with the increasing trans-atlantic trade routes – transporting African slaves, including leaders and scholars of Timbuktu – marginalising Timbuktu's role as a trade and scholarly cente
Are you saying there were no Moors in Timbucktu, what about Awaghast??
Did you pay attention to what Brada posted about WHO was fighting for the Songhai Army??
quote:The Moroccans sent an army to occupy Taghaza, but the army was destroyed in the desert. As response to this, a Songhay army consisting of Tuaregs, attacked northwards and sacked the southern parts of Morocco, forcing Sultan Muhammad to flee from Marrakesh.
What is the description of the Almoravid Moors Lioness, what were their customs that set them apart from other Muslims and Berbers at the Time??
Were the Almoravids "Moors" in your opinion.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:This had nothing to do with the Muslim expansion first of all and second of all, Morocco pulled out after 20 years and the ruling Arma class who remained in Timbuktu only exerted their authority as far south as Djenne (the Songhai had since moved their capital to Dendi). What does this have to do with any "conquest of West Africa"? In fact, one of the Pasha's from Timbuktu was killed in an early raid by one of the Askiya's from Dendi who severed the head of the Pasha for it to be on display in Kebbi for the kinfolk in Hausaland (where many of the Askiyas were originally from).
How's that for a "conquest of West Africa"?
This is True. Further the Moroccan Invasion was more than just an attempt to control the Gold mines as Lioness et al. try to portray. There were also Political reasons. Al Mansur was trying to unite the whole of Western African Islam to counter the encroaching Ottoman Turkish Empire.
If Al-Mansur simply invaded the primitive Sudanis for gold and nothing else(A usual Euroclown tactic is to try to portray Early Non European who went into "SSA" as "Colonizers" in the same category as 19th century European powers) why did Al-Mansur send letters to Both the King of Songhai as well as Borneu asking for their support in creating a West African version of a "Caliphate"...
quote:Ahmad al-Mansur had similar ambitions as his father, but he was enough of a political realistic to recognize that he lacked the strength to challenge the Ottomans directly. And yet, it was under al-Mansur that the theory of sharifian supremacy was developed to its fullest extent.
Al Manusur's idea of "Supremacy" had nothing to do with color but with the fact that he claimed to be from the Bloodline of Muhammed..
quote:It was in his role as the rightful caliph over the Islamic world that al-Mansur made his approach to the Islamic rulers of the kingdoms bordering the Sahara on the south. In letters written to the rulers of Bornu, Kebbi, and Songhay, al-Mansur asserted his caliphal supremacy and maintained that he was only attempting to restore Islamic unity as God intended it, under the rightful leadership of the family of the Prophet. The sultan's letters to the sub-Saharan monarchs emphasized that he needed their support in order to stem the progress of the unbelieving Europeans, and to fulfill his role as leader of holy war to advance the expansion of Islam. Nowhere in his letters did al-Mansur ever indicate that he viewed the sub-Saharan lands as a different region from his own territory. Instead, the clear implication of his message was that, as members of Dar al-Islam (the House of Islam), the sub-Saharan Africans should willingly submit to al-Mansur as the rightful caliph over all Muslims.
When did Europeans ever send letters to Rulers of African nations and people..People keep trying to push the European invented and European taught LIE of a Sub-Sahran Africa aka a Primitive Negro land. We have the evidence that soundly debunks this myth.
1) The first people to take control of the Trade routes of the Sahrah were Sonnike and other Africans as well as Berbers who had a Mutual and rescpected relationship.
2) Even after Rivalry with Sanhadja the non Berber sudanis were still able to Ally with Berbers and Megrebis as can be seen by the amount of Taureg and others in Timbucktu and who fought for Songhai.
3) Architecture unique to Jenne and Morocco are clear Africa derived styles that have been influenced both ways, proving Sudanis and Megrebis were learning from each other.
4) The Role of the Megreb and Sudan is similar to other African Empires such as Nubia and Egypt where Mutual respect, Rivalry and Influences was essential to both empires greatness. Heck Europeans were the "Dominating/Colonizers" if one compares Ireland and England to Sudan and the Megreb. Yet Europeans and Eurocentrics rarely talk about that.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Al Manusur's idea of "Supremacy" had nothing to do with color but with the fact that he claimed to be from the Bloodline of Muhammed..
This was more so the case given the fact that his mother was a Fulani concubine.
lioness is definitely out of her element here.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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"The nomadic Juhayna comprised a family of tribes that included the Kababish, Baqqara, and Shukriya. "
Absolutely NOT TRUE.
Kababish have nothing to with Juhaynas. they are a mix of Arabs, Bejas and Berbers. They were no kabbabish in Sudan before the 16th century since the kabbabish originally came from the MAGHREB.
Pure bullshit.. i know this, because i am 1...
I know nothing about that specific point.
However this can be said:
أبو حفص المرتضى عمر بن أبي إبراهيم اسحاق بن يوسف بن عبد المؤمن; Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada died 1266) was an Almohad caliph who reigned in part of Morocco from 1248 until his death. a portrait done in his lifetime commissioned by Castilian monarch Alfonso X (23 November 1221 – 4 April 1284)
___________
^^^^ Here we have a rendition of an Almohad caliph in his time commisioned by Alfonso X
Alfonso X (23 November 1221 – 4 April 1284) was a Castilian monarch (Christian) who ruled as the King of Castile, León and Galicia from 1252 until his death. He also was elected King of the Germans in 1257.From the beginning of his reign, Alfonso employed Jewish, Christian and Muslim scholars at his court, primarily for the purpose of translating books from Arabic and Hebrew into Latin and Castilian, although he always insisted in supervising personally the translations.
He also commissioned the book of games, we see black Muslims and white Muslims in it:
We have both blacks and straight haired whites being portrayed. Or if you prefer dark skinned and light skinned persons. Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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when one country invades another to acquire resources and booty and you don't like them they are "invaders". When you do like them you call these same invaders "unifiers". They came in with armies and forced the people into "unity". And for this favor, they are paid in gold
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: As for the depictions of Almohads and Almoravids, there is no definitive artwork showing anyone that is clearly labeled as being an Almoravid or Almohad from the 11th-13th century when they actually ruled Spain. And again, they were a minority in the Islamic population of Spain. Most of the Muslims in Spain at the time were converts. The cantiagas actually shows clearly that many of the muslims used Christian mercenaries and many were themselves converts to Islam.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
And it is funny that the OP has still not found any actual pictures from the time of the berbers in the Almoravid and Almohad armies from the 12th century AD.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: However this can be said:
أبو حفص المرتضى عمر بن أبي إبراهيم اسحاق بن يوسف بن عبد المؤمن; Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada died 1266) was an Almohad caliph who reigned in part of Morocco from 1248 until his death. a portrait done in his lifetime commissioned by Castilian monarch Alfonso X (23 November 1221 – 4 April 1284)
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
You have had plenty of time to offer support for your "Invasion" opinions. Yet, the only thing you have done is copy n paste and resort to worthless whining. In other words you can't defend your position so you are throwing a hissy fit.
sad..
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: when one country invades another to acquire resources and booty and you don't like them they are "invaders". When you do like them you call these same invaders "unifiers". They came in with armies and forced the people into "unity". And for this favor, they are paid in gold
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: As for the depictions of Almohads and Almoravids, there is no definitive artwork showing anyone that is clearly labeled as being an Almoravid or Almohad from the 11th-13th century when they actually ruled Spain. And again, they were a minority in the Islamic population of Spain. Most of the Muslims in Spain at the time were converts. The cantiagas actually shows clearly that many of the muslims used Christian mercenaries and many were themselves converts to Islam.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
And it is funny that the OP has still not found any actual pictures from the time of the berbers in the Almoravid and Almohad armies from the 12th century AD.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: However this can be said:
أبو حفص المرتضى عمر بن أبي إبراهيم اسحاق بن يوسف بن عبد المؤمن; Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada died 1266) was an Almohad caliph who reigned in part of Morocco from 1248 until his death. a portrait done in his lifetime commissioned by Castilian monarch Alfonso X (23 November 1221 – 4 April 1284)
I don't know why you are quoting me, but Al Murtada was the second to last Almohad and he was not ruling in Spain he was ruling in a little part of Morocco. Again, you will have to look up his ancestry in the Arab writings. Nine times out of ten he was probably of Spanish stock and not representative of the original African/Arab Almohades that invaded Spain a hundred years earlier.
Suffice to say one image of one sultan from the end of the Almohad dynasty is not enough to prove what the original Berber armies of the Almohads looked like.
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^ What do you expect from the lyinass worm. LOL Her passive-aggressive tactic of trolling never works out.. for her.
In the meantime this issue brings us back to another old topic that we've discussed in the past and that is exactly how prominent were the Arabs in the Maghreb? From what I understand the Arab home-base in Africa has always been Egypt and that it served as a launching pad for more migratory/invasive waves but that their numbers became thinner and more spread out. That said, the Muslim conquest of the western Sudan was carried out not by Arabs but by Berbers claiming Arab ancestry.
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Im quoting you because Lyin ass keeps posting that Image but has yet to provide the primary source you have been asking for.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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LOL! You don't have to quote me for that. Just ask him for his sources that describe the ancestry and phenotype of this person from the histories written at the time. Certainly we cannot expect one image from a non Muslim work to be taken as the definitive truth? And this is only one person what does that say about the rest of the Almohad movement?
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: LOL! You don't have to quote me for that. Just ask him for his sources that describe the ancestry and phenotype of this person from the histories written at the time. Certainly we cannot expect one image from a non Muslim work to be taken as the definitive truth? And this is only one person what does that say about the rest of the Almohad movement?
Of course it's not one image it's multiple images from Alfonso X.
Look at these manuscript illustrations, then what is your conclusion about them? the Almohad dynasty was founded by an Atlas mountain Berber Ibn Tumart.
In 1125 he began open revolt against Almoravid rule.
__________________________________
backtrack:
The Almoravid dynasty originated amongst the Lamtuna and the Gudala, which were nomadic Berber tribes of the Sahara traversing the territory between southern Morocco, the Niger river and the Senegal river. The western Sanhaja had been converted to Islam sometime in the 9th C. They were subsequently united in the 10th C., and with the zeal of neophyte converts launched several campaigns against the Sudanese pagan black peoples of sub-Saharan Africa. Under their king Tinbarutan ibn Usfayshar, the Sanhaja Lamtuna erected (or captured) the citadel of Awdaghust, a critical stop on the trans-Saharan trade route. After the collapse of the Sanhaja union, Awdagust passed over to the Ghana empire and the trans-Saharan routes were taken over by the Zenata Maghrawa of Sijilmassa. The Maghrawa also exploited this disunion to dislodge the Sanhaja Gazzula and Lamta out of their pasturelands in the Sous and Draa valleys.
see: Lewicki, T. (1988) "The Role of the Sahara and Saharians in relationships between north and south", in M. Elfasi, editor, General History of Africa, Africa from the Seventh to the Eleventh Century, UNESCO. 1992 ed., ch.11, p.276-313.
all of this in context of the Muslim copnquestof North Africa, a monotheist religion and expansionist political movement, it's spiritual center Mecca, Arabia
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: That said, the Muslim conquest of the western Sudan was carried out not by Arabs but by Berbers claiming Arab ancestry.
There was never a Berber "conquest" of the Western Sudan.
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
In later Muslim conquest periods West Africa is conquered
When and where did this occur? Unless you're referring to the Fulani Jihads, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.
quote:Mali was once part of three famed West African empires which controlled trans-Saharan trade in gold, salt, slaves, and other precious commodities.These Sahelian kingdoms had neither rigid geopolitical boundaries nor rigid ethnic identities.The earliest of these empires was the Ghana Empire, which was dominated by the Soninke, a Mande-speaking people. The nation expanded throughout West Africa from the 8th century until 1078, when it was conquered by the Almoravids.
This has been proven as untrue in recent decades (see Conrad and Fisher, Insoll, Lange, etc.). All that is is regurgitated medieval Arab mythology. Refer to the Egyptsearch archives for previous discussions.
quote: The Songhai had long been a major power in West Africa subject to the Mali Empire's rule. In the late 14th century, the Songhai gradually gained independence from the Mali Empire and expanded, ultimately subsuming the entire eastern portion of the Mali Empire. The Songhai Empire's eventual collapse was largely the result of a Moroccan invasion in 1591, under the command of Judar Pasha.
This had nothing to do with the Muslim expansion first of all and second of all, Morocco pulled out after 20 years and the ruling Arma class who remained in Timbuktu only exerted their authority as far south as Djenne (the Songhai had since moved their capital to Dendi). What does this have to do with any "conquest of West Africa"? In fact, one of the Pasha's from Timbuktu was killed in an early raid by one of the Askiya's from Dendi who severed the head of the Pasha for it to be on display in Kebbi for the kinfolk in Hausaland (where many of the Askiyas were originally from).
How's that for a "conquest of West Africa"?
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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^ But wasn't there an attempt at conquest or at least the spread of Islam? From what I understand the Almohads tried to wage jihad to at least convert others.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^Yea, further North. Yet and still there was never an Almoravid conquest of the western Sudan, which at that time would have been controlled by Ghana and Tekrur.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ What do you expect from the lyinass worm. LOL Her passive-aggressive tactic of trolling never works out.. for her.
In the meantime this issue brings us back to another old topic that we've discussed in the past and that is exactly how prominent were the Arabs in the Maghreb? From what I understand the Arab home-base in Africa has always been Egypt and that it served as a launching pad for more migratory/invasive waves but that their numbers became thinner and more spread out. That said, the Muslim conquest of the western Sudan was carried out not by Arabs but by Berbers claiming Arab ancestry.
Baybars not Berbers:
Christians and Muslims: AD 543-1821
Nubia has Christian neighbours to the north and to the southeast from the 4th century, when Egypt formally adopts the religion (along with the rest of the Byzantine empire) and when the ruler of Ethiopia is converted to Christianity by Frumentius. But it is another 200 years before Dongola, by now the main kingdom in Nubia, is brought within the Christian fold.
In about AD 543 the king of Dongola is converted to the monophysite version of Christanity, associated in particular with the Coptic church of Egypt and Ethiopia. A few years later, in about 569, the orthodox Christianity of the Byzantine empire reaches Mukarra, a neighbouring kingdom to the south.
During the following century the Christians of Egypt and north Africa succumb to the expansionist vigour of Islam. But Nubia is left free to follow its new Christian path, thanks partly to a treaty agreed in 652. In this year Muslim Arabs invade the northern part of the region from Egypt. But they agree to withdraw on condition that they are sent an annual tribute of 400 slaves.
The treaty holds for more than six centuries, during which the trade routes bring many Muslims south into Nubia. But Muslim raids begin in earnest in the 1270s during the reign of Baybars, the energetic Mameluke sultan of Egypt. In 1315 the annual tribute is finally abolished and a Muslim is placed on the throne of Dongola.
For the next five centuries the Muslim rulers of the Sudan are sometimes the representatives of a powerful administration in Egypt (for example in the early Ottoman years, after 1517). But they are more often tribal dynasties, managing to assert control for a while over a territory more extensive than their immediate local area.
This changes in 1821, when the the region is forcefully taken in hand by the most aggressive ruler of Egypt since the time of Baybars - the Ottoman viceroy Mohammed Ali.
Egyptian rule: from AD 1821
In 1820 Mohammed Ali sends two armies south into the Sudan, each commanded by one of his younger sons. By 1821 they have conquered sufficient of the territory to establish themselves in military headquarters on the point of land formed by the confluence of the Blue and White Niles. The long narrow shape of the camp, coming to a point where the waters join, gives it the name 'elephant's trunk' - or Khartoum in Arabic.
A few years later Khartoum is made the administrative centre of an Egyptian province in the Sudan, acquiring the status of a capital which it and Omdurman, on the opposite bank, have retained ever since.
Though at first seen as part of the Ottoman empire, the independence claimed by Mohammed Ali means that the Sudan becomes once again what it has been in ancient times - the southern province of Egypt. And Egypt steadily claims more and more of the surrounding territory.
Jari, do you have any info on how classical Ghana compared with contemporary European kingdoms of the same era, in terms of say economy, military, size etc?
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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^ Dammit! I used to have all that info in a book I had years ago. Let's just say during Medieval times Ghana was indeed far superior especially economically, but so were many states outside of Europe for that matter.
Remember that before Columbus, 80% of Europe's gold came from Africa and much of it was imported from Ghana.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Dammit! I used to have all that info in a book I had years ago. Let's just say during Medieval times Ghana was indeed far superior especially economically, but so were many states outside of Europe for that matter.
What I do sometimes is put in my search engine the book and chap. perhaps a key word example gold. and I could recover what I am looking for saving time from thumbing through the physical book even if I have it on hand. if you got taken to the Amazon site where you can't cut and paste the text or passage then just share the link only the extremely lazy person won't bother clicking the link and they are not worth your effort. Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada
Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada died 1266) was an Almohad caliph who reigned in part of Morocco from 1248 until his death. a portrait done in his lifetime commissioned by Castilian monarch Alfonso X (23 November 1221 – 4 April 1284)
Islam In Mali, Songhai and the Sudan Coming of the Almoravids
The Almoravids were a Berber dynasty of Morocco, who formed an empire in the 11th-century that stretched over the western Maghreb and Al-Andalus. Their capital was Marrakesh, a city which they founded in 1062 C.E. The Almoravid dynasty originated from a religious and political movement founded by the Berber tribes of the southern Sahara around 1039. A Malikite jurist named ‘Abd Allah ibn Yasin went into the desert to preach religious and moral reform to the tribes of the Sahara at the behest of the leader of the Gdala tribe. Ibn Yasin gathered his disciples in a ribat, which was both a spiritual retreat and a base for jihad. He gave them the name of murabitun (the people of the ribat), which became “Almoravids” when transcribed into European languages. He made an alliance with another powerful tribe, the Lamtuna, and set out to conquer the Sahara and western Maghreb, following the Trans-Saharan trade routes. He was able to take Sijilmasa (1054) and Aghmat (1058) but lost his life in a battle against the Barghwata of the Atlantic plains in 1059. After his death, power came into the hands of Abu Bakr ibn ‘Umar who started the conquest of the kingdom of Ghana (in today’s southern Mauritania). His lieutenant and successor Yusuf ibn Tashfin came into power around 1070 and expanded Almoravid territories through the conquest of the western half of the Maghreb as far as Algiers (1083). He founded his new capital at Marrakech in 1070 and proclaimed himself Emir of the Muslims. This new title allowed him to legitimize his position, while recognising the Abbasid caliphate in Baghdad and respecting the principal of unity of the caliphate so dear to the Malikite jurists.
Ghana
Although originally a diverse settlement of agro-pastoralists, the Ghana empire was soon dominated by the Soninké, a Mandé speaking people. The Soninké kings never fully adopted Islam, but the empire had good relations with Muslim traders. Nevertheless, the Ghana Empire fell in 1078 as a result of inter-dynastic turmoil and a sweeping change in political structure, likely attributable to Almoravid intervention. Ghana survived in a diminished form until Kumbi Saleh was destroyed in 1203 by a former vassal state, the anti-Muslim Sosso Kingdom, which ultimately controlled the southern portions of the former Ghana Empire.
Mali's early history was dominated by three famed West African empires-- Ghana, Mali or "Manden Kurufa", and Songhay. These empires controlled trans-Saharan trade in gold, salt, and other precious commodities and were in touch with Mediterranean and Middle Eastern centers of civilization. All of the empires arose in the area then known as the western Sudan, a vast region of savanna between the Sahara Desert to the north and the tropical rain forests along the Guinean coast to the south. All were characterized by strong leadership (matrilineal) and kin-based societies. None had rigid geopolitical boundaries. The early Islamic penetration of Africa was limited to the north, across Egypt and the Maghrib. By the 13th century, however, the religion had travelled further south, through the work of missionaries and along trade routes, into sub-Saharan Africa. The gold kingdoms of West Africa were one area in which Islam established itself.
The Kingdom of Mali soon filled the void left by the collapse of Ghana, and some of Mali's leaders adopted the religion brought by the invading Almoravids - Islam. Because the Kingdom of Mali controlled all three of the main gold fields in West Africa, whereas Ghana had controlled only one, it grew very wealthy and Timbuktu rose as a major trading city. The most influential and memorable ruler of Mali was Mansa Musa, who ruled from 1312 to 1337, over what has been called the "Golden Age" of Mali. He is generally credited with solidifying the presence of Islam in West Africa, which until his rule was present only in missions and Muslim trading posts, although the religion still had little influence on the general population. As well, Mansa Musa was instrumental in expanding his kingdom's gold trade to the Mediterranean, through increased trading ties with the Merinid empire in North Africa and the Mamluks in Egypt. Mansa Musa is also well known for his pilgrimage to Mecca, which he undertook in 1324. It was reported in sources of the time that he brought 60,000 followers, 500 slaves, and 80 camels with him, all carrying gold. Passing through Tripoli and Cairo, among other cities, also helped in developing trade relationships with foreign cities, because Mali's wealth in gold did not go unnoticed. The Kingdom of Ghana had ruled much of West Africa, and had controlled much of the gold and salt trade in the region, immediately prior to the arrival of Islam. This kingdom covered a wide expanse of territory in West Africa, but it must be noted that it did not correspond to the territory of the present-day country of Ghana. The spread of the Muslim Almoravids from Morocco into Ghana in the mid-11th century marked the beginning of Ghana's downfall, and by the 13th century it had completely disappeared as a state. Timbuktu's importance continued to grow as the Kingdom of Mali faded under the increasing power of one of Mali's subject peoples, the Songhai. The Songhai empire, which had completely eclipsed Mali by the late 14th century, was the last of what has been called the "Great Three" West African empires - after Ghana and Mali. Songhai built upon the existing Islamic tradition established by the Kingdom of Mali, and most of Songhai's 17 kings, the administrators, and the bureaucrats in urban centres were Muslim.
In the history of Sudan, the coming of Islam eventually changed the nature of Sudanese society and facilitated the division of the country into north and south. The spread of Islam began shortly after the Prophet Muhammad's death in 632. By that time, he and his followers had converted most of Arabia's tribes and towns to Islam, which Muslims maintained united the individual believer, the state, and society under God's will. Islamic rulers, therefore, exercised temporal and religious authority. Islamic law (sharia), which was derived primarily from the Qur'an, encompassed all aspects of the lives of believers, who were called Muslims ("those who submit" to God's will). Within a generation of Muhammad's death, Arab armies had carried Islam north and west from Arabia into North Africa. Muslims imposed political control over conquered territories in the name of the caliph (the Prophet's successor as supreme earthly leader of Islam). The Islamic armies won their first North African victory in 643 in Tripoli (in modern Libya). However, the Muslim subjugation of all of North Africa took about seventy-five years. The Arabs invaded Nubia in 642 and again in 652, when they laid siege to the city of Dunqulah and destroyed its cathedral. The Nubians put up a stout defense, however, causing the Arabs to accept an armistice and withdraw their forces.
Sudan represents and earier period of Isamic conquest of North Africa. Contacts between Nubians and Arabs long predated the coming of Islam, but the arabization of the Nile Valley was a gradual process that occurred over a period of nearly 1,000 years. Arab nomads continually wandered into the region in search of fresh pasturage, and Arab seafarers and merchants traded in Red Sea ports for spices and slaves. Intermarriage and assimilation also facilitated arabization. After the initial attempts at military conquest failed, the Arab commander in Egypt, Abd Allah ibn Saad, concluded the first in a series of regularly renewed treaties with the Nubians that, with only brief interruptions, governed relations between the two peoples for more than 600 years. This treaty was known as the baqt. So long as Arabs ruled Egypt, there was peace on the Nubian frontier; however, when non-Arabs (for example, the Mamluks) acquired control of the Nile Delta, tension arose in Upper Egypt. The Arabs realized the commercial advantages of peaceful relations with Nubia and used the baqt to ensure that travel and trade proceeded unhindered across the frontier. The baqt also contained security arrangements whereby both parties agreed that neither would come to the defense of the other in the event of an attack by a third party. The baqt obliged both to exchange annual tribute as a goodwill symbol, the Nubians in slaves and the Arabs in grain. This formality was only a token of the trade that developed between the two, not only in these commodities but also in horses and manufactured goods brought to Nubia by the Arabs and in ivory, gold, gems, gum arabic, and cattle carried back by them to Egypt or shipped to Arabia. Acceptance of the baqt did not indicate Nubian submission to the Arabs, but the treaty did impose conditions for Arab friendship that eventually permitted Arabs to achieve a privileged position in Nubia. Arab merchants established markets in Nubian towns to facilitate the exchange of grain and slaves. Arab engineers supervised the operation of mines east of the Nile in which they used slave labor to extract gold and emeralds. Muslim pilgrims en route to Mecca traveled across the Red Sea on ferries from Aydhab and Suakin, ports that also received cargoes bound from India to Egypt. Traditional genealogies trace the ancestry of most of the Nile Valley's mixed population to Arab tribes that migrated into the region during this period. Even many non-Arabic-speaking groups claim descent from Arab forebears. The two most important Arabic-speaking groups to emerge in Nubia were the Ja'Alin and the Juhayna. Both showed physical continuity with the indigenous pre-Islamic population. The former claimed descent from the Quraysh, the Prophet Muhammad's tribe. Historically, the Jaali have been sedentary farmers and herders or townspeople settled along the Nile and in Al Jazirah. The nomadic Juhayna comprised a family of tribes that included the Kababish, Baqqara, and Shukriya. They were descended from Arabs who migrated after the 13th century into an area that extended from the savanna and semidesert west of the Nile to the Abyssinian foothills east of the Blue Nile. Both groups formed a series of tribal shaykhdoms that succeeded the crumbling Christian Nubian kingdoms and that were in frequent conflict with one another and with neighboring non-Arabs. In some instances, as among the Beja, the indigenous people absorbed Arab migrants who settled among them. Beja ruling families later derived their legitimacy from their claims of Arab ancestry. Although not all Muslims in the region were Arabic-speaking, acceptance of Islam facilitated the Arabizing process. There was no policy of proselytism, however. Islam penetrated the area over a long period of time through intermarriage and contacts with Arab merchants and settlers. The western Sanhaja had been converted to Islam sometime in the 9th C. They were subsequently united in the 10th C., and with the zeal of neophyte converts launched several campaigns against the "Sudanese" (pagan black peoples of sub-Saharan Africa). Under their king Tinbarutan ibn Usfayshar, the Sanhaja Lamtuna erected (or captured) the citadel of Awdaghust, a critical stop on the trans-Saharan trade route.
Lying _ss what kind of B.S. are u trying to pull here now.
There are millions of black AFricans whose history you are attempting to distort. WHY!??
Stop with your despicable, trifling lies.
Al Murtada "who reigned in part of Morocco from 1248 until his death" before the white slave trade - was part of the "black African" Masmuda Almohade dynasty.
You have got to be kidding me!
Do you think just because Alphonse had his man depict some blonde red people probably similar to his own Gallic kind that these were actually a true reflection of Masmuda Berber dynasty known as Al-Muwahhidun or Almohades, or any other Berber tribe of that era.
It is no longer funny what you are doing.
Why do you think there is only mention of Masmuda as "the blacks" in that same century of Al-Murtada by Abu Shama.lol!
Why does Nasir Khusrau of Central Asia speak of 20,000 Masmuda soldiers of the Fatimid Dynasty in Egypt as "blacks"!
“Masamida were Berbers from the Western Maghreb. Nasir-i Khusrau, however, SAYS THAT THEY WERE BLACKS and characterized them as infantry who used lances and swords” (Yaacov Lev, 1987. Army, regime, and society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094. International Journal of Middle East Studies, 19(3), 337-365. p. 342). Haven't I copied and pasted this stuff enough?
So apparently Alphonse had never seen the Al-Muwahhidun if he is making them into some Dutch looking men.lol!
Here is what a recent author writes about al-Murtada whose people never saw Alphonse contrary to your half-lying suggestions and picture spam. "Of the motley of troops that had declared allegiance to al-Murtada only his own guard composed mainly of black African soldiers, remained loyal in fighting a losing battle against the stronger and better trained Sanhaja army"!!!! p. 234 Occident and Orient by Sandor Scheiber, 1988.
Guess who these "black African" soldiers were?
Ibn Butlan 11th century - "The Berber women are from the island of Barbara... THEIR COLOR IS MOSTLY BLACK though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of KUTAMA, whose father is of SANHAJA, and whose origin is MASMUDA..."!
Lamtuna of the Sanhaja are the Tuareg still called by the same name Kel Aulammiden. Sanhaja equals Tuareg, Lying A _ _ . Did u notice there don't appear to have been any paintings of Tuareg i.e. Sanhaja looking people in Spain when there are in fact descriptions of veiled Berbers there?!
And Almoravid were Sanhaja composed only Tuareg, Zaghawa, Fulani and Haratin before they mixed with white slaves.
Keep dreaming.lol!
Sanhaja general Abu Bakr of the Almoravids by a Spaniard who went to Africa and saw what Sanhaja looked like!
Just like someone already said on this site - u R like a devil with "blackface" on. And I don't care whether you are truly black or not. Worse racist on this site - no holds barred!!!. No wonder u make Djehuti so mad. lol!
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Both Almoravid and Almuwahhid were black African almost purely Fulani or Guddala Waritan, Sanhaja/Massufa or Tuareg, Haratin and Zaghawa/Wangara people. These people that lived in Sudan and founded Sudanese states such as Songhai/Sughai or Zaghai, Ghana and Zaghawa were the same people that lived further North.
Please learn African history, people! Fulani/Woodabe/Fulitani, Wangara or el Berabir, Gnawa, Zagha and Haratin/Bafour or Mauri Bavares have always lived in places like Morocco/Algeria and Mauretania along with Tuareg or Ethiopians known as "Mezikes".
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada
Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada died 1266) was an Almohad caliph who reigned in part of Morocco from 1248 until his death. a portrait done in his lifetime commissioned by Castilian monarch Alfonso X (23 November 1221 – 4 April 1284)
dana marniche: Do you think just because Alphonse had his man depict some blonde red people probably similar to his own Gallic kind that these were actually a true reflection of Masmuda Berber dynasty known as Al-Muwahhidun or Almohades, or any other Berber tribe of that era.
As with Alphonso X's book of games the below, these images of Muslim soldiers show both Africans and non-African Arabs, people not similar to his own Castilians:
the term "black" was not used in medieval writings as it is in modern America to mean dark skinned people of African descent. In Medieval times and later the term "black" included swarthy non-African types as well as dark skinned (and lighter skinned) Africans. These were all "blacks" relative to paler Europeans. Even today in some parts of Europe, Dutch schools which are comprised of many Muslim immigrants are often called "black" schools even though some of these schools have a lot more brown skinned Turks and brown skinned non-African Middle Easterners but a lesser amount of dark skinned North Africans.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
It is no longer funny what you are doing.
I never intended this stuff to be funny
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
Here is what a recent author writes about al-Murtada whose people never saw Alphonse contrary to your half-lying suggestions and picture spam. "Of the motley of troops that had declared allegiance to al-Murtada only his own guard composed mainly of black African soldiers, remained loyal in fighting a losing battle against the stronger and better trained Sanhaja army"!!!! p. 234 Occident and Orient by Sandor Scheiber, 1988.
This is exactly what Alphoso X depicts as Muslims armies, a "motely" crew, a variety of differnt ethnicities.
More from your source, Occident and Orient by Sandor Scheiber, 1988: Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Thanks for the zoomed and lighter background crop from Mecia de Viladestes, in 1413, on his portolan (likely an update to Abraham Cresques' 1375 one) identifying Rex Bubeder i.e., Abu Bakr famed amir of the 11th c. Sanhadja confederacy in the Sahara.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada
Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada died 1266) was an Almohad caliph who reigned in part of Morocco from 1248 until his death. a portrait done in his lifetime commissioned by Castilian monarch Alfonso X (23 November 1221 – 4 April 1284)
dana marniche: Do you think just because Alphonse had his man depict some blonde red people probably similar to his own Gallic kind that these were actually a true reflection of Masmuda Berber dynasty known as Al-Muwahhidun or Almohades, or any other Berber tribe of that era.
As with Alphonso X's book of games the below, these images of Muslim soldiers show both Africans and non-African Arabs, people not similar to his own Castilians:
the term "black" was not used in medieval writings as it is in modern America to mean dark skinned people of African descent. In Medieval times and later the term "black" included swarthy non-African types as well as dark skinned (and lighter skinned) Africans. These were all "blacks" relative to paler Europeans. Even today in some parts of Europe, Dutch schools which are comprised of many Muslim immigrants are often called "black" schools even though some of these schools have a lot more brown skinned Turks and brown skinned non-African Middle Easterners but a lesser amount of dark skinned North Africans.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
It is no longer funny what you are doing.
I never intended this stuff to be funny
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
Here is what a recent author writes about al-Murtada whose people never saw Alphonse contrary to your half-lying suggestions and picture spam. "Of the motley of troops that had declared allegiance to al-Murtada only his own guard composed mainly of black African soldiers, remained loyal in fighting a losing battle against the stronger and better trained Sanhaja army"!!!! p. 234 Occident and Orient by Sandor Scheiber, 1988.
This is exactly what Alphoso X depicts as Muslims armies, a "motely" crew, a variety of differnt ethnicities.
More from your source, Occident and Orient by Sandor Scheiber, 1988:
You keep repeating your outright lies. I notice. You have been doing this for many months now.
The reason why they call Islam schools and schools composed of many immigrants black schools. Is because of resentment towards immigrants of Islamic background, and those of non-Western origin. It has nothing to do with their ethnicity, because that is not being called black. When they speak of the black community it's clear of whom they speak. Also in historical context. There are clear distinctions. And yes, of course lighter skinned Africans are black as well.
There aren't many middle eastern people here. Unless you speak of those of Arab descent, who came from North Africa. lol
If you want to speak of Holland, let's talk about Sinter Klaas and Zwarte Piet. The portrayal the pope and Moors. Since you are a specialist on Dutch history and social construction.
The word swarthy is Yidish and means black indeed, this was a cures word used by Akhenasi Jews, towards Sephardic Jews. In fact all none white Jews are being called Sephardic. So this notion is a bit more complex. Simple minded clown.
ClickPosts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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^ LOL And the Lyinass worm again gets busted!
It seems she is trying to 'lighten up' the Moorish invasion of Europe so to speak by making the black presence less than it really was.
Funny how the actual topic of this thread is not even about the Moorish invasion of Europe but of Moorish homelands in the Maghgreb in relation to other Africans further south, yet she manages to interject her silly lies anyway.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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