posted
Hi guys, I am rather a new guy on this forum. Haivng read a few books on the racial makw up of the Kmtwy and their language commonly given as Afrasan I am aware that people like Profs Cheikh Anta Diop and Theophile Obenga have disputed this categorization, bringing undeniable evidence and as a sort of long time reader of the information posted here, I know many of the posters on here have used and do appreciate that Wolof is very close to Egyptian but I have never seen anyone mention the outstanding researches of one Ferg Somo who I have found to be a fairly outstanding researcher. He shows a relationship between Egyptian and the (dreaded) 'Bantu' languages, at least on the lexical level. What do you guys make of his research findings? do you find any fault in his methods? or is his findings invalid? I have tried to find any 'refutals' or a 'peer-review'(if he has been published) but I haven't seen any andI was wondering what you guys think, here is his homepage (http://www.kaa-umati.co.uk/)
Posts: 49 | From: South Africa | Registered: Feb 2012
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posted
There are a zillion different people on the internet running around claiming they have research showing close AE language or ethnic links with whatever not african group or language that is highly suspect. Just like there are a zillion people showing close links between AE's and their language with whatever not european/caucasoid/aryan/etc group or language. Someone's calling something research doesn't make it valid.
I took a quick look on that site and the author is using wikipedia as one of his sources so he doesn't seem to be a professional linguist or even a good amatuer one. That should be a hint why you didn't find anybody rebutting his research. If one were to use this author's feeble methods, one could link all kinds of distant languages in the world to each other.
AE's were african like any other african. It's not necessary to fudge evidence to show them or their culture/language as closely related to other africans. There is already reliable evidence on their relations with africans. Why invent, twist and use feeble support to link them with more distantly related africans?
Bantu languages are reckoned by linguists to be 4,000 yrs old. AE was already a well established language by over 7,000 yrs ago. Any supposed close links are wishful thinking.
Posts: 214 | Registered: Oct 2011
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quote:Originally posted by africurious: There are a zillion different people on the internet running around claiming they have research showing close AE language or ethnic links with whatever not african group or language that is highly suspect. Just like there are a zillion people showing close links between AE's and their language with whatever not european/caucasoid/aryan/etc group or language. Someone's calling something research doesn't make it valid.
I took a quick look on that site and the author is using wikipedia as one of his sources so he doesn't seem to be a professional linguist or even a good amatuer one. That should be a hint why you didn't find anybody rebutting his research. If one were to use this author's feeble methods, one could link all kinds of distant languages in the world to each other.
AE's were african like any other african. It's not necessary to fudge evidence to show them or their culture/language as closely related to other africans. There is already reliable evidence on their relations with africans. Why invent, twist and use feeble support to link them with more distantly related africans?
Bantu languages are reckoned by linguists to be 4,000 yrs old. AE was already a well established language by over 7,000 yrs ago. Any supposed close links are wishful thinking.
The Bantu languages are older than 4000 years. This date relates to the so called Bantu disperal from Nubia and Cameroon across Sub-Saharan Africa.
The Bantu languages are related to Egyptian. This results from the fact that ancient Egyptian was a lingua franca that united the many African ethnic groups that formerly lived in ancient Egypt. Since the Bantu formed one of the southern nomes of Egypt it is only natural that Egyptian would be related to the Bantu and other Niger-Congo languages.
Many African linguists have noted the genetic relationship between Egyptian and African languages. You can read more about this phenomena here:
quote:Originally posted by africurious: There are a zillion different people on the internet running around claiming they have research showing close AE language or ethnic links with whatever not african group or language that is highly suspect. Just like there are a zillion people showing close links between AE's and their language with whatever not european/caucasoid/aryan/etc group or language. Someone's calling something research doesn't make it valid.
I took a quick look on that site and the author is using wikipedia as one of his sources so he doesn't seem to be a professional linguist or even a good amatuer one. That should be a hint why you didn't find anybody rebutting his research. If one were to use this author's feeble methods, one could link all kinds of distant languages in the world to each other.
AE's were african like any other african. It's not necessary to fudge evidence to show them or their culture/language as closely related to other africans. There is already reliable evidence on their relations with africans. Why invent, twist and use feeble support to link them with more distantly related africans?
Bantu languages are reckoned by linguists to be 4,000 yrs old. AE was already a well established language by over 7,000 yrs ago. Any supposed close links are wishful thinking.
LOL, but Ferg Somo ACTUALLY DOES REFER E.A WALLIS BUDGE, as well as Mr. FAULKNER! He uses Budge's and Faulkner's hieroglyphic dictionaries and compares the skeletal consonants of Mdw Ntr to words in Niger-Congo (especially Bantu) languages, unlike some some researchers who really on made up words like the 'Rmt = Remetch' european nonsense. Anyway mind producing evidence to show that Ferg is incorrect in what he has shown to be in the Bantu languages, which in turn are related to many West African tongues, at least vocabulary-wise? Remember, if Bantu is shown to be related to Mdw Ntr then that will also force us to reconsider the so called Bantu-migrations and whence they 'started' out.
Posts: 49 | From: South Africa | Registered: Feb 2012
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Thanks Dr. Clyde on your view. It is basically what Ferg Somo says, that the Mdw Ntr was a lingua franca of virtually all Africans around the Nile Valley at the time. Now compare the fact that Kenyan and Ugandan Bantu elders claim a migration from Egypt/'Misiri' to their current country, the DNA TRIBES results which appear to suggest a biological affinity of some Kemetic mummies with populations classified as Bantu... if all this is correct then it shouldn't solicit a kneejerk reaction from you. I am not trying to claim the ancient egyptians as Bantu but that the Bantu may have been there indeed. I am actually happy with them being who they are - whether west Africans or Somali-like, fact is they were Black - I am more interested in the Spirituality and thus the language, hope that clarifies things.
Posts: 49 | From: South Africa | Registered: Feb 2012
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posted
Well I am flat out telling you that the Bantu speakers of South, West and central Africa are the ancestors of the ancient Egyptians
DNA does not lie, does not make mistakes, and does not play favorites and the DNA of the Armana mummies PROVES thst king Tut and his family were sub Sharan Africans
They were not Somali like, they were not Beja or anything else! They were sub saharan Africans whose ancestors can be found today in South, West and Central Africa
I REALIZE THAT FACT IS VERY HARD TO SWALLOW!
Posts: 166 | Registered: Mar 2012
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quote:Originally posted by africanolmec: Well I am flat out telling you that the Bantu speakers of South, West and central Africa are the ancestors of the ancient Egyptians
DNA does not lie, does not make mistakes, and does not play favorites and the DNA of the Armana mummies PROVES thst king Tut and his family were sub Sharan Africans
They were not Somali like, they were not Beja or anything else! They were sub saharan Africans whose ancestors can be found today in South, West and Central Africa
I REALIZE THAT FACT IS VERY HARD TO SWALLOW!
Yes it is. Egypt was a Pan-African civilization that was made up of numerous African groups in addition to Bantu speaking people.
quote: Originally posted by Wally: Ethnic names in the Mdu Ntr (updated)
Tutsi Tutsi "the assembled gods"; "all of them (gods)"
Akan Akan - the name of a god Akaniu - a class of gods like Osiris
Fante Fante - "he of the nose" - a name of Thoth - one of the 42 judges in the Hall of Osiris ("Shante" in modern Egyptian)
Hausa Hosa - a singing god (The Sahidic Coptic word for 'to sing; song' is Hos. Note: There are also towns in Ethiopia & Angola named 'Hosa'.
Yoruba Ourbaiu - great of souls, a title of gods or kings Ouruba - Great God of soul
Fulani The word for Fulani in Wolof is Pėl, from this the French derived Peul Paal - a Kushite god; a form of Ra
Twi (an Akan linguistic group) Twi - the name of a god
Oromo Oromo is derived from 'orma' - person to 'oromo' - people in the Oromo language Orma ; Oromo - the name of a god
Edo Edo - name of a god; also a city in Keme
The Bini, the original people and founders of the Benin empire (aka, Edo empire) Binni - a phallic god ...
With the possible exception of the Tutsi and the Oromo, African Americans are genetically descendants of all these ethnic groups...
Over the years Diop and other researchers have identified linguistic evidence that ancient Egyptian and Black African languages are related. This suggest that speakers of these languages formerly lived together.
It has been pointed out that the ancestors of the Egyptians originally lived in the Sahara.
There are similarities between Egyptian and Saharan motifs (Farid,1985). It was in the Sahara that we find the first evidence of agriculture, animal domestication and weaving (Farid , 1985, p.82). This highland region is the Kemites "Mountain of the Moons " region, the area from which the civilization and goods of Kem, originated.
The rock art of the Saharan Highlands support the Egyptian traditions that in ancient times they lived in the Mountains of the Moon. The Predynastic Egyptian mobiliar art and the Saharan rock art share many common themes including, characteristic boats (Farid 1985,p. 82), men with feathers on their head (Petrie ,1921,pl. xvlll,fig.74; Raphael, 1947, pl.xxiv, fig.10; Vandier , 1952, p.285, fig. 192), false tail hanging from the waist (Vandier, 1952, p.353; Farid, 1985,p.83; Winkler 1938,I, pl.xxlll) and the phallic sheath (Vandier, 1952, p.353; Winkler , 1938,I , pl.xvlll,xx, xxlll).
Due to the appearance of aridity in the Mountains of the Moon the Proto-Saharans migrated first into Nubia and thence into Kem. The Proto-Saharan origin of the Kemites explain the fact that the Kushites were known for maintaining the most ancient traditions of the Kemites as proven when the XXVth Dynasty or Kushite Dynasty ruled ancient Egypt. Farid (1985, p.85) wrote that "To conclude, it seems that among Predynastic foreign relations, the [Proto-]Saharians were the first to have significant contact with the Nile Valley, and even formed a part of the Predynastic population" (emphasis author).
This means that the Nomes probably represent different "states" incorporated into ancient Egypt. It is quite possible that each nome represented a different ethnic group.
If this is true the Egyptian language was probably a lingua franca used to provide a means of communication for the diverse people who lived in ancient Egypt. This would explain why Egyptian was used to write Kushite text until Egyptians migrated into Meroitic lands once Egypt was under the control of the Romans.
Alain Anselin La Question Peule, makes it clear that the Fula originated in Egypt. He supports this theory with the obvious similarity between the words for cattle and milk shared by the Egyptians, Fula and Dravidians (Tamil). He believes that by the 12 Dynasty of Egypt Fula were settled in Egypt.
The Egyptians had many gods. They had these gods because as new ethnicities formed nomes in Egypt they brought their gods with them.
A good example of this amalgamation of various African ethnicities into Egypt is the followers of the god Ra. Some of the first rulers of Egypt saw Ra as the main god.
Later the Egyptians worshipped Aman/Amun which was a Saharan god. ). By the 2nd millennium BC Kushites at kerma were already worshippers of Amon/Amun and they used a distinctive black-and-red ware (Bonnet 1986; Winters 1985b,1991). Amon, later became a major god of the Egyptians during the 18th Dynasty.
A majority of Fula may have remained nomadic, but settled Fula probaly form a major ethnic group in an Egyptian Nome, as did Wolof and Mande speaking people. This is the best way to explain the close genetic linguistic relationship between these groups.
Granted, some Wolof, Mande and Fula made their way to West Africa, but many speakers of these languages remained in Egypt and made up one of the various nomes associated with Egypt.
DNA can tells us little about this period unless they recover DNA from the people living at that time. DNA from living individuals only tell us about the contemporary group. Not the original people. This is supported by the DNA of the Armana mummies that proved that king Tut and his family was of Sub-Sharan origin.
Egypt was a cosmopolitan area inhabited by diverse people who move up the Nile from the south to found the First Dynasty. Since the people of Dynastic Egypt originated in the Sahara and moved from south to north . The archaeological evidence makes it clear that no one originated in Egypt.
We know that in African societies great ancestors are made into gods. This is interesting because Wally has discovered a number of African ethnonyms among the gods of Egyptian nomes.
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
Ethnic names in the Mdu Ntr
Tutsi Tutsi "the assembled gods"; "all of them (gods)"
Akan Akan - the name of a god Akaniu - a class of gods like Osiris
Fante Fante - "he of the nose" - a name of Thoth - one of the 42 judges in the Hall of Osiris ("Shante" in modern Egyptian)
Hausa Hosa - a singing god
Yoruba Ourbaiu - great of souls, a title of gods or kings Ouruba - Great God of soul
The permutations of names of such folks as the Wolof or the Fulani are so many, that it requires the effort of those who speak the language, to properly interpret the names -ie, Djoloff, Oulof, etc. and then look for their meanings in Budge's dictionary...
It would be quite interesting if these nomes were formerly prominent southern nomes who gained prominence once the Inyotefs came to power.
The appearence of these ethnonyms in Egyptian suggest that African tribes now living in West Africans formerly lived in ancient Egypt in the nomes that made up this great empire.
posted
Originally posted by africurious: There are a zillion different people on the internet running around claiming they have research showing close AE language or ethnic links with whatever not african group or language that is highly suspect. Sure you can find idiots someplace making any and all kind of language connections without foundation, including "connections" to reputed "extra-terrestial" civilizations, like von Daniken's "Chariots of the Gods."
But there is a well documented scholarship showing Egyptian links to other African languages such as the Chadic languages. QUOTE:
"The evidence also points to linkages to other northeast African peoples, not coincidentally approximating the modern range of languages closely related to Egyptian in the Afro-Asiatic group (formerly called Hamito-Semetic). These linguistic similarities place ancient Egyptian in a close relationship with languages spoken today as far west as Chad, and as far south as Somalia.
Archaeological evidence also strongly supports an African origin. A widespread northeastern African cultural assemblage, including distinctive multiple barbed harpoons and pottery decorated with dotted wavy line patterns, appears during the early Neolithic (also known as the Aqualithic, a reference to the mild climate of the Sahara at this time). Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this time resembles early Egyptian iconography. Strong connections between Nubian (Sudanese) and Egyptian material culture continue in later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper Egypt. Similarities include black-topped wares, vessels with characteristic ripple-burnished surfaces, a special tulip-shaped vessel with incised and white-filled decoration, palettes, and harpoons...
Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization.."
-- Source: Donald Redford (2001) The Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt, Volume 3. Oxford University Press. p.28
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5906 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Ausar Amen8, beware of the pseudo-linguists. Case in point Clyde Winters. I suggest you do independent research on your own on Egyptian language and see what can come up with.
Posts: 26311 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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It has been pointed out that the ancestors of the Egyptians originally lived in the Sahara.
Indeed. I think the Saharan model gives something fundamentally Pan-African- Egypt as a Saharan, pan-African civilization, with the Sahara (that greenbelt that once covered one-third of Africa) as the central locus. The Sahara would be the "mother" of African civilizations, giving birth to several children- Egypt in the Nile Valley, and the great Sahelian/Saharan kingdoms of West Africa. What info out there links the Bantu to the Saharan zones?
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5906 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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