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Author Topic: West Africans discovered America before Columbus
MANGO
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Africa's 'greatest explorer'

 -

Wednesday, 13 December, 2000, 22:27 GMT

By Joan Baxter in Mali

An African emperor who ruled Mali in the 14th century discovered America nearly 200 years before Christopher Columbus, according to a book to be launched this month.

Abubakari II ruled what was arguably the richest and largest empire on earth - covering nearly all of West Africa.


According to a Malian scholar, Gaoussou Diawara in his book, 'The Saga of Abubakari II...he left with 2000 boats', the emperor gave up all power and gold to pursue knowledge and discovery.

Abubakari's ambition was to explore whether the Atlantic Ocean - like the great River Niger that swept through Mali - had another 'bank'.

In 1311, he handed the throne over to his brother, Kankou Moussa, and set off on an expedition into the unknown.

His predecessor and uncle, Soundjata Keita, had already founded the Mali empire and conquered a good stretch of the Sahara Desert and the great forests along the West African coast.


Gold fields

The book also focuses on a research project being carried out in Mali tracing Abubakari's journeys.

"We are not saying that Abubakari II was the first ever to cross the ocean," says Tiemoko Konate, who heads the project

"There is evidence that the Vikings were in America long before him, as well as the Chinese," he said.


The researchers claim that Abubakari's fleet of pirogues, loaded with men and women, livestock, food and drinking water, departed from what is the coast of present-day Gambia.

They are gathering evidence that in 1312 Abubakari II landed on the coast of Brazil in the place known today as Recife.

"Its other name is Purnanbuco, which we believe is an aberration of the Mande name for the rich gold fields that accounted for much of the wealth of the Mali Empire, Boure Bambouk."

Another researcher, Khadidjah Djire says they have found written accounts of Abubakari's expedition in Egypt, in a book written by Al Omari in the 14th century.

"Our aim is to bring out hidden parts of history", she says.


Black traders

Mr Konate says they are also examining reports by Columbus, himself, who said he found black traders already present in the Americas.

They also cite chemical analyses of the gold tips that Columbus found on spears in the Americas, which show that the gold probably came from West Africa.


But the scholars say the best sources of information on Abubakari II are Griots - the original historians in Africa.

Mr Diawara says the paradox of Abubakari II, is that the Griots themselves imposed a seal of silence on the story.

"The Griots found his abdication a shameful act, not worthy of praise," Mr Diawara said.

"For that reason they have refused to sing praise or talk of this great African man."

Mr Diawara says the Griots in West Africa such as Sadio Diabate, are slowly starting to divulge the secrets on Abubakari II.

'Hard-nosed historians'

But the research team says an even bigger challenge is to convince hard-nosed historians elsewhere that oral history can be just as accurate as written records.

Mr Diawara believes Abubakari's saga has an important moral lesson for leaders of small nation states in West Africa, which were once part of the vast Mande-speaking empire.

"Look at what's going on in all the remnants of that empire, in Ivory Coast, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Guinea.

"Politicians are bathing their countries in blood, setting them on fire just so that they can cling to power," says Mr Diawara.

"They should take an example from Abubakari II. He was a far more powerful man than any of them. And he was willing to give it all up in the name of science and discovery."

"That should be a lesson for everyone in Africa today," concludes Mr Diawara.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1068950.stm

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zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
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^^lol at new troll account trying to spark "controversy"
after which the "Afrocentrics" can be "refuted."

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MANGO
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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
^^lol at new troll account trying to spark "controversy"
after which the "Afrocentrics" can be "refuted."

i've no idea what you're talking about, i'm native american bro [Roll Eyes]
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Clyde Winters
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Check out my video on Abubakari's voyage to America:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHT4p6DWoWg

Enjoy

.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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Whatbox
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Very cool thread Mango, I've heard of a bit of this but hadn't heard they were coming out with a book, thanks.
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osirion
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Probably the most interesting thing I have read in awhile. Especially considering this mural:

 -

--------------------
Definition of Insanity: Doing the same thing the same way over and over again but expecting different results.

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Quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
Probably the most interesting thing I have read in awhile. Especially considering this mural:

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Look at the color of the figures's hands and feet-- not black. They are either pained black or wearing black costumes.
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facts
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Supreme idiocy!

Look at the feet, chin and eyes of the two in question on the mural. Very revealing LMAO!!! This is what you are seeing, as the tradition, body paint/art, lingers on today...

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SMDH at sheer buffoonery.


quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
Probably the most interesting thing I have read in awhile. Especially considering this mural:

 -


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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by MANGO:
Africa's 'greatest explorer'

 -

Wednesday, 13 December, 2000, 22:27 GMT

By Joan Baxter in Mali

An African emperor who ruled Mali in the 14th century discovered America nearly 200 years before Christopher Columbus, according to a book to be launched this month.

Abubakari II ruled what was arguably the richest and largest empire on earth - covering nearly all of West Africa.


According to a Malian scholar, Gaoussou Diawara in his book, 'The Saga of Abubakari II...he left with 2000 boats', the emperor gave up all power and gold to pursue knowledge and discovery.

Abubakari's ambition was to explore whether the Atlantic Ocean - like the great River Niger that swept through Mali - had another 'bank'.

In 1311, he handed the throne over to his brother, Kankou Moussa, and set off on an expedition into the unknown.

His predecessor and uncle, Soundjata Keita, had already founded the Mali empire and conquered a good stretch of the Sahara Desert and the great forests along the West African coast.


Gold fields

The book also focuses on a research project being carried out in Mali tracing Abubakari's journeys.

"We are not saying that Abubakari II was the first ever to cross the ocean," says Tiemoko Konate, who heads the project

"There is evidence that the Vikings were in America long before him, as well as the Chinese," he said.


The researchers claim that Abubakari's fleet of pirogues, loaded with men and women, livestock, food and drinking water, departed from what is the coast of present-day Gambia.

They are gathering evidence that in 1312 Abubakari II landed on the coast of Brazil in the place known today as Recife.

"Its other name is Purnanbuco, which we believe is an aberration of the Mande name for the rich gold fields that accounted for much of the wealth of the Mali Empire, Boure Bambouk."

Another researcher, Khadidjah Djire says they have found written accounts of Abubakari's expedition in Egypt, in a book written by Al Omari in the 14th century.

"Our aim is to bring out hidden parts of history", she says.


Black traders

Mr Konate says they are also examining reports by Columbus, himself, who said he found black traders already present in the Americas.

They also cite chemical analyses of the gold tips that Columbus found on spears in the Americas, which show that the gold probably came from West Africa.


But the scholars say the best sources of information on Abubakari II are Griots - the original historians in Africa.

Mr Diawara says the paradox of Abubakari II, is that the Griots themselves imposed a seal of silence on the story.

"The Griots found his abdication a shameful act, not worthy of praise," Mr Diawara said.

"For that reason they have refused to sing praise or talk of this great African man."

Mr Diawara says the Griots in West Africa such as Sadio Diabate, are slowly starting to divulge the secrets on Abubakari II.

'Hard-nosed historians'

But the research team says an even bigger challenge is to convince hard-nosed historians elsewhere that oral history can be just as accurate as written records.

Mr Diawara believes Abubakari's saga has an important moral lesson for leaders of small nation states in West Africa, which were once part of the vast Mande-speaking empire.

"Look at what's going on in all the remnants of that empire, in Ivory Coast, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Guinea.

"Politicians are bathing their countries in blood, setting them on fire just so that they can cling to power," says Mr Diawara.

"They should take an example from Abubakari II. He was a far more powerful man than any of them. And he was willing to give it all up in the name of science and discovery."

"That should be a lesson for everyone in Africa today," concludes Mr Diawara.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1068950.stm

quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
Probably the most interesting thing I have read in awhile. Especially considering this mural:

 -

Interesting storyline, Mango.


Song Ge et al.


Phylogeny of rice genomes with emphasis on origins of allotetraploid species


The African cultivated species, Oryza glaberrima, is most closely related to two African wild species, Oryza barthii and Oryza longistaminata, and also to Oryza glumaepatula, which occurs in Central and South America.


http://www.pnas.org/content/96/25/14400.full.pdf

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Clyde Winters
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 -

This picture has nothing to do with Mexico. This picture is of childrn of the Amazon. The research associatede with the photo makes it clear that the practicing painting the body is a female cultural activity.

See:

http://clas.berkeley.edu/Gallery/zmekhol/page2.html

.

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Clyde Winters
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Whereas the picture of the Amazon children relates to a female cultural tradition in Brazil, the Chama vase is related to a ritual ceremony.


 -

The vase records a meeting of the Maya and a representative of the Native Blacks who were represented in Mayan art by the god Ekchuah.

The origins of the Maya go back to the Ocos who as represented by their art were negroes or Blacks.

 -

Ocos female of the Mokaya tradition.

The Ocos were taught the art of building pyramids by the Olmecs. As a result, umder the earlist Mayan pyramids we find Olmec structures.

 -

These ancient black nations are discussed here:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=002117

The Maya learned pyramid building, writing and agriculture from the ancient Blacks of Guatemala. These Blacks were the first kings of the Maya. See:


Afro-Mayan kings

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wU2OslyBhck&feature=relmfu


Due to the contribution of the Afro-Mexicans to the rise of Mayan civilization they include these Blacks as the gods Xaman and Ekchuah. See


African Gods of the Olmecs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKrajzLak0M

It appears that up to the introduction of Spanish colonist, the stronghold of the Afro-Mexicans was Central America: Belize, Guatemala and etc.

The Maya interacted frequently with African merchants. See:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBinZHWSaLc


.

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Clyde Winters
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THERE ARE MANY OLMEC PYRAMIDS UNDER PRECLASSIC MAYAN PYRAMIDS .

 -


THESE PYRAMIDS USUALLY INCLUDE AN OLMEC FAÇADE. THE EL-ZOTZ PYRAMID APPEARS TO BE AN OLMEC PYRAMID. THE ZOLZ PYRAMID IS NEAR TIKAL WHICH ALSO HAS A OLMEC PYRAMID UNDER THE STRUCTURE.

ARTIFACTS FROM Royal Tomb. El Diablo, El Zotz, Petén.


 -

 -

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[img] http://thehollowearthinsider.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Maya-Maske-300x225.jpg[/img]

.

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Real tawk
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Either you take pleasure in your lies, Clyde, or your ability to reason logically is taken hostage by the madness of your delusions. I would prefer to assume the former is true.

SMDH.

Explain this, Clyde.

 -

Notice the motif of colors.

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Real tawk
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And while you are at it, explain this one too!

 -

SMDH

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Real tawk
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The final nail in Clyde's coffin.

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And these two are Blacks too huh? The Mayans are worshiping some Black dude in the procession, heh? LMAO!

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Quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:


Song Ge et al.


Phylogeny of rice genomes with emphasis on origins of allotetraploid species


The African cultivated species, Oryza glaberrima, is most closely related to two African wild species, Oryza barthii and Oryza longistaminata, and also to Oryza glumaepatula, which occurs in Central and South America.


http://www.pnas.org/content/96/25/14400.full.pdf [/QB]

What's the point? O. glumaepatula is a wild species native to Brazil. O. glaberrima is also closely related to O. sativa cultivated in china, O. nivara wild in laos, O. rufipogon wild in China, and O. meridionalis found in Australia.
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Thule
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Jesus Christ, this stuff is old and was debunked back in the 1990's when Sertima published his crackpot 'Before Columbus' book. See the following studies:

Robbing Native American Cultures: Van Sertima's Afrocentricity and the Olmecs
Gabriel Haslip‐Viera, Bernard Ortiz de Montellano, Warren Barbour
Current Anthropology, Vol. 38, No. 3 (June 1997), pp. 419-441

They Were NOT Here before Columbus: Afrocentric Hyperdiffusionism in the 1990s
Bernard Ortiz de Montellano, Gabriel Haslip-Viera, Warren Barbour
Ethnohistory, Vol. 44, No. 2 (Spring, 1997), pp. 199-234

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Thule
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 -
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Real tawk
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RFLOL!!!!!!!!!!

quote:
Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist:
 -


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Clyde Winters
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LOL. You know nothing about Mayan history. If you did you would recognize that there were many Black Mayas.

 -


The Popol Vuh, gives us insight into Mayan history.

 -

In the Popol Vuh it is made clear that the ancestors of the Quiche Maya came from across the sea. We will use quotes from Tedlocks translation of the Popol Vuh

We shall write about this now amid the preaching of God,in Christendom now. We shall bring it out because there is no longer a place to see it, a Council Book, a place to see “The Light That Came from Beside the Sea”, the account of “Our Place in the Shadows”, a place to see “The Dawn of Life”……(p.63).

The ancestors of the Maya came from east. “…[b]the first people came from beside the sea, from the east. They came here in ancient times. When they died they were very old”
(p.175).

Claiming that the nacestors came from the East is very important. East of the Maya, would be the Gulf Region where the Mande/Olmec people settled and founded the Olmec civilization.

You guys, in your racism assume that their were no Blacks among the Maya. This is a false view. The Popol Vuh notes that: They didn’t know where they were going. They did this for a long time, when they were there in the grasslands:the black people, the white people, people of many faces, people of many languages, uncertain there at the edge of the sky (pp.149-150).

The Blacks introduced civilization among the Maya. In the Popol Vuh, it is noted that And then the boys made fire with drill and rosted, the bird over the fire. And they coated one of the birds with plaster, they put gypsum on it (p.86).


 -

 -

It is interesting to note that the boys drilling are depicted as Blacks in the Dresden and Tro-Cotesianus Codexes.

As a result, the color Black and Black individuals were recognized as important in Mayan culture. The major Black gods were God C, Xaman and Ekchuah. God C is personification of the concept of sacreness. It has the phonetic value of ku or ch’in deity or sacreness. The Mayan term for deity/god is of Mande Olmec origin:

  • Maya ……..English………Mande

    Kin………….day…………..kene

    K’u,ku……..sacre,god………Ku

This is another indication of the Olmec origin of Mayan civilization.

The jaguar played an important role in Mayan society as it did in Africa. The jaguar pelt or cushion was the symbol of the ‘enthroned lord’. This is why we see the jaguar pelt around the neck of the Black royal represented in the Chama vase.

Blacks also introduced writing and trade among the Maya. The usual Mayan term for black is ’Ek’. Thus the merchant god signified by the back pack staff and etc was called Ekchuah. Thus we see these Blacks, gods etc. represented in many Mayan Codexes.
.

 -
God C

.
Given this review of the fact that there were Black Maya, and that these Blacks played an important role in Mayan society I will answer the question posted earlier
quote:



Crush Black Lies asked the question “And these two are Blacks too huh? The Mayans are worshiping some Black dude in the procession, heh?”


The answer is yes. These Mayan people are showing respect to their African/Black heritage.



 -

In the photo above we see figures that are black and with jaguar spots. This picture is simply denoting that black and jaguar spots would represent royalty.


 -

The picture above illustrates personages draped in black. The blackness of the Mayan grab suggest that this photo represents wise men.


 -

The picture above is just what you thought it was. It is recognizing the enthronement of a Black Mayan as ruler. This ruler is being carried by the other Maya. There is also another Black in the entourage. This person wears a backpack. This suggest that he may have been an envoy from one of the Black Mayan cities.

You guys are a joke. You know nothing about ancient Mexico, so you have allowed your hate and racism toward Blacks to cloud your mind and interpret these works of art based on your own views about blacks. Shame on you.

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Real tawk
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Do you think the artist ran out of black paint while coloring the face, Clyde?

 -

 -

Clyde, there is something frighteningly wrong with you. Now I understand why you were fired by the University, and why the Chicago Police did not hire you.

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Thule
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quote:
The Popol Vuh notes that: They didn’t know where they were going. They did this for a long time, when they were there in the grasslands:the black people, the white people, people of many faces, people of many languages, uncertain there at the edge of the sky (pp.149-150).
So who are the ''white people''? Are you saying some of the Mayans were now white?
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Thule
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LOL!

The paragraph Clyde omits -

quote:
And those of the Quiba House, those of the Yokes House, Acul people, Jaguar House, Guardians of the Spoils, Jaguar Ropes.
It is sufficient that we speak of only the largest tribes from among the allied tribes; we have only noted the largest. Many more came out afterward, each one a division of that citadel. We have not written their names, but they multiplied there, from out of the east. There came to be many peoples in the blackness: they began to abound even before the birth of the sun, and the light. When they began to abound they were all there together; they stood and walked in crowds, there in the east.
There was nothing they could offer for sustenance, but even so they lifted their faces to the sky. They did not know where they were going. The did this for a long time when they were there in the grasslands, black people, white people of many faces, people of many languages, uncertain, there at the edge of the sky

the ''black'' people is a reference to those shrouded in darkness, and the ''white'' people those lit by the sun.

Obsolutely nothing to do with race.

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Thule
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quote:
Clyde, there is something frighteningly wrong with you
This guy must know to himself he is lieing. See just above. How do people like this sleep at night?
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facts
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What you show here is very telling about this guy. I think Clyde has transformed into a monster because of his failed academic career. He wants to commit maximum damage against the establishment. I believe that this man is very bitter which drives him to this madness.


quote:
Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist:
quote:
Clyde, there is something frighteningly wrong with you
This guy must know to himself he is lieing. See just above. How do people like this sleep at night?

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist:
Jesus Christ, this stuff is old and was debunked back in the 1990's when Sertima published his crackpot 'Before Columbus' book. See the following studies:

Robbing Native American Cultures: Van Sertima's Afrocentricity and the Olmecs
Gabriel Haslip‐Viera, Bernard Ortiz de Montellano, Warren Barbour
Current Anthropology, Vol. 38, No. 3 (June 1997), pp. 419-441

They Were NOT Here before Columbus: Afrocentric Hyperdiffusionism in the 1990s
Bernard Ortiz de Montellano, Gabriel Haslip-Viera, Warren Barbour
Ethnohistory, Vol. 44, No. 2 (Spring, 1997), pp. 199-234

This paper was related to van Sertima not me.

.

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist:
quote:
The Popol Vuh notes that: They didn’t know where they were going. They did this for a long time, when they were there in the grasslands:the black people, the white people, people of many faces, people of many languages, uncertain there at the edge of the sky (pp.149-150).
So who are the ''white people''? Are you saying some of the Mayans were now white?
Here are the whites.

Temple of the worriors Chichen-Itza
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Below one of the whites is sacrficed by the Black Maya.

.

 -

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist:
LOL!

The paragraph Clyde omits -

quote:
And those of the Quiba House, those of the Yokes House, Acul people, Jaguar House, Guardians of the Spoils, Jaguar Ropes.
It is sufficient that we speak of only the largest tribes from among the allied tribes; we have only noted the largest. Many more came out afterward, each one a division of that citadel. We have not written their names, but they multiplied there, from out of the east. There came to be many peoples in the blackness: they began to abound even before the birth of the sun, and the light. When they began to abound they were all there together; they stood and walked in crowds, there in the east.
There was nothing they could offer for sustenance, but even so they lifted their faces to the sky. They did not know where they were going. The did this for a long time when they were there in the grasslands, black people, white people of many faces, people of many languages, uncertain, there at the edge of the sky

the ''black'' people is a reference to those shrouded in darkness, and the ''white'' people those lit by the sun.

Obsolutely nothing to do with race.

LOL.You can't read. It clearly says " The[y] did this for a long time when they were there in the grasslands, black people, white people of many faces, people of many languages, uncertain, there at the edge of the sky "

The key words are 'faces' and languages. Use of these word makes it clear they are refering to people, not an emotion.

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Crush Black Lies:
Do you think the artist ran out of black paint while coloring the face, Clyde?

 -

 -

Clyde, there is something frighteningly wrong with you. Now I understand why you were fired by the University, and why the Chicago Police did not hire you.

This what I wrote.

quote:



Originally posted by Clyde Winters


 -

The picture above is just what you thought it was. It is recognizing the enthronement of a Black Mayan as ruler. This ruler is being carried by the other Maya. There is also another Black in the entourage. This person wears a backpack. This suggest that he may have been an envoy from one of the Black Mayan cities.

You guys are a joke. You know nothing about ancient Mexico, so you have allowed your hate and racism toward Blacks to cloud your mind and interpret these works of art based on your own views about blacks. Shame on you.


You still have not disputed anything I wrote.

The fact remains that Black people lived among the Maya and black was the symbol for royalty and civilization.

.
.

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Quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

The fact remains that Black people lived among the Maya and black was the symbol for royalty and civilization.

.
.

As usual, Clyde makes claims derived solely from his fevered idiosyncratic imagination. Provide us with some authoritative quotes not paraphrases or truncations from scholars who have really published on the Maya to the effect that black was the symbol for royalty. In fact, the colors associated with royalty were the white headband and the green of the quetzal


Joel Skidmore 2010 The Rulers of Palenque. Fifth edition. Mesoweb: www.mesoweb.com/palenque/resources/rulers/PalenqueRulers-05.pdf.


quote:
p. 8 Thus a total of twenty-two years and 114 days are added to K’uk’ Bahlam’s birth (indicated by the “upended frog” at P7) to arrive at the date of his accession. The verb for accession (at Q7) is a “flat hand” holding out two glyphs, the one on the left being the color “white” and the one on the right representing the headband of rulership. “White” is sak in Mayan, and the headband is huun. Sak Huun is the name of the headband and also a name of the Jester God, a Maya deity associated with rulership.
%%%%%%%%

UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA RIVERSIDE
A Study of Classic Maya Rulership
A Dissertation submitted in partial satisfaction
of the requirements for the degree of
Doctor of Philosophy
in
Anthropology
by
Mark Alan Wright
August 2011

quote:
p. 151 In general, accession phrases fall into two categories; those that refer to the office itself and those that refer to the accoutrements of power received by the ruler during his accession (Eberl and Graña-Behrens 2004:102). The statements that refer to the office itself include chumlaaj ti/ta ajawlel ―to sit down in rulership‖ and joy?-aj ti/ta ajawlel ―to be ‗encircled‘ in rulership‖ (‗encircling‘ may make reference to the headband being wrapped around the head). The statements explicitly referring to the accoutrements that the ruler received include ch’am/k’am k’awiil ―to take or receive the K‘awiil scepter‖ or k’al u sak hu’unal tu b’ah ―to wrap the white headband around oneself‖ (ibid.).
. . . .
p. 156
Janab Pakal‘s son, K‘inich Kan Bahlam II, also displayed a restorationist (or perhaps revisionist) bent. He hearkens back to deep time in order to associate himself with the mythical founders of Palenque. On the Tablet of the Cross (Figure 3.9), he uses the T713/757 k’al sak juun (―the white headband was tied‖) expression to declare the accessions of the purely mythical Muwaan Mat (the Triad Progenitor; at F7-F8),
. . . .
p. 176-77
Perhaps the most common headdress across the Maya area is the sak hu’n, or ―white headband, which typically has a ―Jester God diadem attached to it (Figure 3.29). The cloth headband was the principal symbol of the status of ajaw (Stuart 2004b:263). As discussed earlier, the T713/757 compound makes reference to the tying of a headband upon the ruler‘s head as part of the accession ceremony, and this phrase is most commonly found in the Western Maya region. Although the glyphic phrase is the same and the iconography is similar, it should be noted that the headdress itself differs at each site, although they almost all share some form of the Jester God as a component (Le Fort 1994:50). The taking of a headdress at accession has considerable time depth, with presentation scenes appearing among the Late Preclassic Maya at San Bartolo and the wearing of trefoil headbands by rulers extending back to the Middle Formative period among the Gulf Coast Olmec (Figure 3.31) (Fields 1991) and continuing into Preclassic Nakbe (Hansen 1994:30).

and


Sharer, R. J. 1994 The Ancient Maya 5th ed Stanford: Stanford Univ. Press

quote:
p. 725-726 The color symbolism used in highland Guatemalan textile designs still bears some relation to that used by the ancient Maya. Black, the color of obsidian, represents weapons; yellow, the color of corn, symbolizes food; red represents blood; and blue means sacrifice. The royal color is green, because that is the color of the quetzal bird’s plumage, which was reserved for rulers.

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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


As a result, the color Black and Black individuals were recognized as important in Mayan culture. The major Black gods were God C, Xaman and Ekchuah. God C is personification of the concept of sacreness. It has the phonetic value of ku or ch’in deity or sacreness. The Mayan term for deity/god is of Mande Olmec origin:

  • Maya ……..English………Mande

    Kin………….day…………..kene

    K’u,ku……..sacre,god………Ku

This is another indication of the Olmec origin of Mayan civilization.
.

This is boring. Clyde's misuse of linguistics with respect to the Mayan languages has been refuted since 1998. However, a lot of newcomers may be intimidated by Clyde's supposed mastery of Mande.
From a previous posting on ES

In all his work Winters makes much of supposed linguistic correspondences between the languages of peoples supposedly influenced or genetically related to the Mande. However, there is a tremendous fundamental flaw in his work that makes these comparisons invalid; Winters does not provide accurate phonetic transcriptions of the words he compares making the supposed ”resemblance” invalid.
Even Wikipedia is a good enough source for this
[URL] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_method[/URL]
quote:

quote:
The comparative method (in comparative linguistics) is a technique used by linguists to demonstrate genetic relationships between languages. It aims to prove that two or more historically attested languages are descended from a single proto-language by comparing lists of cognate terms. From these cognate lists, regular sound correspondences between the languages are established, and a sequence of regular sound changes can then be postulated which allows the proto-language to be reconstructed from its daughter languages. Relation is deemed certain only if a partial reconstruction of the common ancestor is feasible, and if regular sound correspondences can be established with chance similarities ruled out.
When Winters transcribes his Mande words from Delafosse, he doesn’t distinguish between vowels that are nasal and those that aren’t; between ê as in French tête and è as in père for example and similar variations in the other vowels; u that really sounds as [ou] as in “sou”, û that sounds as [oû] as in croûte; or the ü that sounds like [u] in “surdite”; in consonants: g(dot), n (dot), r(dot), and x (dot) sound like [gh], [ng] as in English “sing”, [rh], [kh] as in Spanish “jota: respectively; gy is [gui[, etc. All of these examples from Delafosse (1929, pp.29-35)

Another problem is that Delafosse in his dictionary does not record differences in tone. This is why we often see a number of different definitions for the exact same word, as we will see for ku later.

Here is a quote explaining this

Ward, I. C. 1944. “ A Phonetic Introduction to Mende,” in K.H. Crosby An Introduction to the Study of Mende Cambridge: W. Heffer & Sons

quote:
p.5 “THE TONES OF MENDE, (xi) Mende is a tone language, i.e. the pitch of a word is as much a part that word as any other element. It is almost impossible to over-emphasize the importance of tones in Mende. In fact, it is no exaggeration to say that of the three factors of speech, tone, vowel and consonant, tone is the most important and consonant the least important (see Practical Suggestions for the Learning of an African Language in the Field, Ida C. Ward, p.21). Tone can distinguish words from each other. E.g. [I]kali[rising tone] = “snake”; kali[falling tone] = “hoe”; ndapi[rising] = fight; ndapi[hightone] = “swim”. . .
(xii) In addition to distinguishing meaning, tone plays a part in the construction of sentences, i.e. every verb form has its own particular tone pattern; closely related groups of words such as noun+noun, noun+adjective, noun+ postposition, have their tone pattern… . .”

In Maya, as I’ve written before Winters never takes into account the sound value of the glottal stop, a consonant, a crucial component of the language just as it is in Arabic.
Another problem, as we will see, is that Winters cherry picks his words so that, instead of comparing words that have identical meanings, he uses words that often require a stretch of the imagination to achieve similarity.

Participants in ES should be concerned about this since it applies to claims about Dravidian, Japanese, Mixe, and other “languages related to Mande” not just Maya. It takes work but it would be worthwhile to carry out an exercise like this for other languages.

For reference in Delafosse /â/ like Fr. “pâte”, /ê/ = “tête”, /î/ “pître”, /ô/ = côte’, /û/ = croûte”,/ü/= “surdite”,/u/= “sou”

1) I dealt with k’in/kene previously, but here it is again;

The Maya name k’in phonetically is k/glottal stop/in. As those of you who speak Arabic know glottal stops (hamza) are very important consonants. Mande does NOT have glottal stops, but Winters never puts glottal stops in his comparisons of Maya and Mande and his comparisons therefore are invalid.
[kene] does not sound like [k[glottal stop]in]

More importantly, why do you not choose the true equivalent words to compare instead of fudging the scales to try to force a match? k’in (Cordemex, p. 400) is defined as “day” generally, “sun”. The really equivalent word is:
tele defined as “day (in general), sun, day (opposed to night)” (Delafosse 1955, p. 737). tele does not sound like k’in

The word Winters chooses: kenè, kêna is defined as “light, daylight, luminous space, open space” (Delafosse, 1955, p. 358) which is a stretch to get to the meaning “day”.

2) god ku/ ku

a) Maya k’/glottal stop/u (Cordemex p. 406) and k’/glottal stop/uul (Cordemex p. 421) means “god” “divine” and “soul”

b) Mande
If you look up the word “dieu” in Delafosse (1929) p. 431 you get:
Alla which is the borrowed “Allah”. However, (p. 434) “divinité” is n’[e]-ya – locale, l/â/-siri, d/â/-siri

This in no way sounds like k[glottal stop]in

Winters proposes, with no page reference, ku= “god” Delafosse (1955 pp 415-420) has a number of definitions – none of them “god”
1 k/uo/ = “washing, to wash, to bathe”
2. k/uo/ = “yam Dioscorea alata”
3. k/uo/ = “tail, to stand in line, “
4. k/uo/ = “evil, bad, poor”
Four identically sounding words— they must be different tones

5. k/oun nasal vowel/] = “head, summit”
6. k/on nasal vowel/] = “that which should be isolated, to be sacred, adult, respect, etc.” p. 381

kuo, koun, kon do not sound like k/glottal stop/u, or k/glottal stop/uul or have the meaning of “god”. Neya does not sound like k/glottal stop/u either.

Delafosse, M. 1929. La langue Mandingue et ses dialectes Paris: Paul Geuthner
Delafosse, M. 1955. La langue Mandingue et ses dialectes vol. 2 Paris: Paul Geuthner
Barrera Vasquez, A. Ed. 1980 Diccionario Maya Cordemex Merida: Ediciones Cordemex

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


As a result, the color Black and Black individuals were recognized as important in Mayan culture. The major Black gods were God C, Xaman and Ekchuah. God C is personification of the concept of sacreness. It has the phonetic value of ku or ch’in deity or sacreness. The Mayan term for deity/god is of Mande Olmec origin:

  • Maya ……..English………Mande

    Kin………….day…………..kene

    K’u,ku……..sacre,god………Ku

This is another indication of the Olmec origin of Mayan civilization.
.

This is boring. Clyde's misuse of linguistics with respect to the Mayan languages has been refuted since 1998. However, a lot of newcomers may be intimidated by Clyde's supposed mastery of Mande.
From a previous posting on ES

In all his work Winters makes much of supposed linguistic correspondences between the languages of peoples supposedly influenced or genetically related to the Mande. However, there is a tremendous fundamental flaw in his work that makes these comparisons invalid; Winters does not provide accurate phonetic transcriptions of the words he compares making the supposed ”resemblance” invalid.
Even Wikipedia is a good enough source for this
[URL] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_method[/URL]
quote:

quote:
The comparative method (in comparative linguistics) is a technique used by linguists to demonstrate genetic relationships between languages. It aims to prove that two or more historically attested languages are descended from a single proto-language by comparing lists of cognate terms. From these cognate lists, regular sound correspondences between the languages are established, and a sequence of regular sound changes can then be postulated which allows the proto-language to be reconstructed from its daughter languages. Relation is deemed certain only if a partial reconstruction of the common ancestor is feasible, and if regular sound correspondences can be established with chance similarities ruled out.
When Winters transcribes his Mande words from Delafosse, he doesn’t distinguish between vowels that are nasal and those that aren’t; between ê as in French tête and è as in père for example and similar variations in the other vowels; u that really sounds as [ou] as in “sou”, û that sounds as [oû] as in croûte; or the ü that sounds like [u] in “surdite”; in consonants: g(dot), n (dot), r(dot), and x (dot) sound like [gh], [ng] as in English “sing”, [rh], [kh] as in Spanish “jota: respectively; gy is [gui[, etc. All of these examples from Delafosse (1929, pp.29-35)

Another problem is that Delafosse in his dictionary does not record differences in tone. This is why we often see a number of different definitions for the exact same word, as we will see for ku later.

Here is a quote explaining this

Ward, I. C. 1944. “ A Phonetic Introduction to Mende,” in K.H. Crosby An Introduction to the Study of Mende Cambridge: W. Heffer & Sons

quote:
p.5 “THE TONES OF MENDE, (xi) Mende is a tone language, i.e. the pitch of a word is as much a part that word as any other element. It is almost impossible to over-emphasize the importance of tones in Mende. In fact, it is no exaggeration to say that of the three factors of speech, tone, vowel and consonant, tone is the most important and consonant the least important (see Practical Suggestions for the Learning of an African Language in the Field, Ida C. Ward, p.21). Tone can distinguish words from each other. E.g. kali[rising tone] = “snake”; kali[falling tone] = “hoe”; ndapi[rising] = fight; ndapi[hightone] = “swim”. . .
(xii) In addition to distinguishing meaning, tone plays a part in the construction of sentences, i.e. every verb form has its own particular tone pattern; closely related groups of words such as noun+noun, noun+adjective, noun+ postposition, have their tone pattern… . .”

In Maya, as I’ve written before Winters never takes into account the sound value of the glottal stop, a consonant, a crucial component of the language just as it is in Arabic.
Another problem, as we will see, is that Winters cherry picks his words so that, instead of comparing words that have identical meanings, he uses words that often require a stretch of the imagination to achieve similarity.

Participants in ES should be concerned about this since it applies to claims about Dravidian, Japanese, Mixe, and other “languages related to Mande” not just Maya. It takes work but it would be worthwhile to carry out an exercise like this for other languages.

For reference in Delafosse /â/ like Fr. “pâte”, /ê/ = “tête”, /î/ “pître”, /ô/ = côte’, /û/ = croûte”,/ü/= “surdite”,/u/= “sou”

1) I dealt with k’in/kene previously, but here it is again;

The Maya name k’in phonetically is k/glottal stop/in. As those of you who speak Arabic know glottal stops (hamza) are very important consonants. Mande does NOT have glottal stops, but Winters never puts glottal stops in his comparisons of Maya and Mande and his comparisons therefore are invalid.
[kene] does not sound like [k[glottal stop]in]

More importantly, why do you not choose the true equivalent words to compare instead of fudging the scales to try to force a match? k’in (Cordemex, p. 400) is defined as “day” generally, “sun”. The really equivalent word is:
tele defined as “day (in general), sun, day (opposed to night)” (Delafosse 1955, p. 737). tele does not sound like k’in

The word Winters chooses: kenè, kêna is defined as “light, daylight, luminous space, open space” (Delafosse, 1955, p. 358) which is a stretch to get to the meaning “day”.

2) god ku/ ku

a) Maya k’/glottal stop/u (Cordemex p. 406) and k’/glottal stop/uul (Cordemex p. 421) means “god” “divine” and “soul”

b) Mande
If you look up the word “dieu” in Delafosse (1929) p. 431 you get:
Alla which is the borrowed “Allah”. However, (p. 434) “divinité” is n’[e]-ya – locale, l/â/-siri, d/â/-siri

This in no way sounds like k[glottal stop]in

Winters proposes, with no page reference, ku= “god” Delafosse (1955 pp 415-420) has a number of definitions – none of them “god”
1 k/uo/ = “washing, to wash, to bathe”
2. k/uo/ = “yam Dioscorea alata”
3. k/uo/ = “tail, to stand in line, “
4. k/uo/ = “evil, bad, poor”
Four identically sounding words— they must be different tones

5. k/oun nasal vowel/] = “head, summit”
6. k/on nasal vowel/] = “that which should be isolated, to be sacred, adult, respect, etc.” p. 381

kuo, koun, kon do not sound like k/glottal stop/u, or k/glottal stop/uul or have the meaning of “god”. Neya does not sound like k/glottal stop/u either.

Delafosse, M. 1929. La langue Mandingue et ses dialectes Paris: Paul Geuthner
Delafosse, M. 1955. La langue Mandingue et ses dialectes vol. 2 Paris: Paul Geuthner
Barrera Vasquez, A. Ed. 1980 Diccionario Maya Cordemex Merida: Ediciones Cordemex

LOL. You don't know anything about comparative linguistics. You look for analogous consonants to determine a relationship.

For example lets look at the word feeble 'weak': (Latin) flabilis > (Fr.)faible > (Eng) Feeble=weak. If you notice these words have different vowels, but they share a similar phonological pattern: f-b-l. The words from these diverse languages shows regular sound correspondences. Thus we can say they are related.


You only concentrate on vowels when reconstructing a proto-language.

You would know this if you were a linguist.

Due to the regular correspondence between Mayan K’u ,qu
and Mande Ku I wrote God C is personification of the concept of sacreness.


 -
God C


It has the phonetic value of ku or ch’in deity or sacreness. The Mayan term for deity/god is of Mande Olmec origin:

  • Maya ……..English………Mande

    Kin………….day…………..kene

    K’u,ku……..sacre,god………Ku

This is another indication of the Olmec origin of Mayan civilization.

Also, please cite the 1998 article where my comparisons of Mayan and Mande terms was refuted.


.

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Quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


As a result, the color Black and Black individuals were recognized as important in Mayan culture. The major Black gods were God C, Xaman and Ekchuah. God C is personification of the concept of sacreness. It has the phonetic value of ku or ch’in deity or sacreness. The Mayan term for deity/god is of Mande Olmec origin:

  • Maya ……..English………Mande

    Kin………….day…………..kene

    K’u,ku……..sacre,god………Ku

This is another indication of the Olmec origin of Mayan civilization.
.

This is boring. Clyde's misuse of linguistics with respect to the Mayan languages has been refuted since 1998. However, a lot of newcomers may be intimidated by Clyde's supposed mastery of Mande.
From a previous posting on ES

In all his work Winters makes much of supposed linguistic correspondences between the languages of peoples supposedly influenced or genetically related to the Mande. However, there is a tremendous fundamental flaw in his work that makes these comparisons invalid; Winters does not provide accurate phonetic transcriptions of the words he compares making the supposed ”resemblance” invalid.
Even Wikipedia is a good enough source for this
[URL] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_method[/URL]
quote:

quote:
The comparative method (in comparative linguistics) is a technique used by linguists to demonstrate genetic relationships between languages. It aims to prove that two or more historically attested languages are descended from a single proto-language by comparing lists of cognate terms. From these cognate lists, regular sound correspondences between the languages are established, and a sequence of regular sound changes can then be postulated which allows the proto-language to be reconstructed from its daughter languages. Relation is deemed certain only if a partial reconstruction of the common ancestor is feasible, and if regular sound correspondences can be established with chance similarities ruled out.
When Winters transcribes his Mande words from Delafosse, he doesn’t distinguish between vowels that are nasal and those that aren’t; between ê as in French tête and è as in père for example and similar variations in the other vowels; u that really sounds as [ou] as in “sou”, û that sounds as [oû] as in croûte; or the ü that sounds like [u] in “surdite”; in consonants: g(dot), n (dot), r(dot), and x (dot) sound like [gh], [ng] as in English “sing”, [rh], [kh] as in Spanish “jota: respectively; gy is [gui[, etc. All of these examples from Delafosse (1929, pp.29-35)

Another problem is that Delafosse in his dictionary does not record differences in tone. This is why we often see a number of different definitions for the exact same word, as we will see for ku later.

Here is a quote explaining this

Ward, I. C. 1944. “ A Phonetic Introduction to Mende,” in K.H. Crosby An Introduction to the Study of Mende Cambridge: W. Heffer & Sons

quote:
p.5 “THE TONES OF MENDE, (xi) Mende is a tone language, i.e. the pitch of a word is as much a part that word as any other element. It is almost impossible to over-emphasize the importance of tones in Mende. In fact, it is no exaggeration to say that of the three factors of speech, tone, vowel and consonant, tone is the most important and consonant the least important (see Practical Suggestions for the Learning of an African Language in the Field, Ida C. Ward, p.21). Tone can distinguish words from each other. E.g. kali[rising tone] = “snake”; kali[falling tone] = “hoe”; ndapi[rising] = fight; ndapi[hightone] = “swim”. . .
(xii) In addition to distinguishing meaning, tone plays a part in the construction of sentences, i.e. every verb form has its own particular tone pattern; closely related groups of words such as noun+noun, noun+adjective, noun+ postposition, have their tone pattern… . .”

In Maya, as I’ve written before Winters never takes into account the sound value of the glottal stop, a consonant, a crucial component of the language just as it is in Arabic.
Another problem, as we will see, is that Winters cherry picks his words so that, instead of comparing words that have identical meanings, he uses words that often require a stretch of the imagination to achieve similarity.

Participants in ES should be concerned about this since it applies to claims about Dravidian, Japanese, Mixe, and other “languages related to Mande” not just Maya. It takes work but it would be worthwhile to carry out an exercise like this for other languages.

For reference in Delafosse /â/ like Fr. “pâte”, /ê/ = “tête”, /î/ “pître”, /ô/ = côte’, /û/ = croûte”,/ü/= “surdite”,/u/= “sou”

1) I dealt with k’in/kene previously, but here it is again;

The Maya name k’in phonetically is k/glottal stop/in. As those of you who speak Arabic know glottal stops (hamza) are very important consonants. Mande does NOT have glottal stops, but Winters never puts glottal stops in his comparisons of Maya and Mande and his comparisons therefore are invalid.
[kene] does not sound like [k[glottal stop]in]

More importantly, why do you not choose the true equivalent words to compare instead of fudging the scales to try to force a match? k’in (Cordemex, p. 400) is defined as “day” generally, “sun”. The really equivalent word is:
tele defined as “day (in general), sun, day (opposed to night)” (Delafosse 1955, p. 737). tele does not sound like k’in

The word Winters chooses: kenè, kêna is defined as “light, daylight, luminous space, open space” (Delafosse, 1955, p. 358) which is a stretch to get to the meaning “day”.

2) god ku/ ku

a) Maya k’/glottal stop/u (Cordemex p. 406) and k’/glottal stop/uul (Cordemex p. 421) means “god” “divine” and “soul”

b) Mande
If you look up the word “dieu” in Delafosse (1929) p. 431 you get:
Alla which is the borrowed “Allah”. However, (p. 434) “divinité” is n’[e]-ya – locale, l/â/-siri, d/â/-siri

This in no way sounds like k[glottal stop]in

Winters proposes, with no page reference, ku= “god” Delafosse (1955 pp 415-420) has a number of definitions – none of them “god”
1 k/uo/ = “washing, to wash, to bathe”
2. k/uo/ = “yam Dioscorea alata”
3. k/uo/ = “tail, to stand in line, “
4. k/uo/ = “evil, bad, poor”
Four identically sounding words— they must be different tones

5. k/oun nasal vowel/] = “head, summit”
6. k/on nasal vowel/] = “that which should be isolated, to be sacred, adult, respect, etc.” p. 381

kuo, koun, kon do not sound like k/glottal stop/u, or k/glottal stop/uul or have the meaning of “god”. Neya does not sound like k/glottal stop/u either.

Delafosse, M. 1929. La langue Mandingue et ses dialectes Paris: Paul Geuthner
Delafosse, M. 1955. La langue Mandingue et ses dialectes vol. 2 Paris: Paul Geuthner
Barrera Vasquez, A. Ed. 1980 Diccionario Maya Cordemex Merida: Ediciones Cordemex

LOL. You don't know anything about comparative linguistics. You look for analogous consonants to determine a relationship.

For example lets look at the word feeble 'weak': (Latin) flabilis > (Fr.)faible > (Eng) Feeble=weak. If you notice these words have different vowels, but they share a similar phonological pattern: f-b-l. The words from these diverse languages shows regular sound correspondences. Thus we can say they are related.


You only concentrate on vowels when reconstructing a proto-language.

You would know this if you were a linguist.


Due to the regular correspondence between Mayan[b] K’u ,qu
and Mande Ku I wrote God C is personification of the concept of sacreness.


 -
God C


It has the phonetic value of ku or ch’in deity or sacreness. The Mayan term for deity/god is of Mande Olmec origin:

  • Maya ……..English………Mande

    Kin………….day…………..kene

    K’u,ku……..sacre,god………Ku

This is another indication of the Olmec origin of Mayan civilization.

Also, please cite the 1998 article where my comparisons of Mayan and Mande terms was refuted.


.

LOL yourself. 1) please quote a linguistics textbook that says that only consonants are important in determining genetic relationships-- you make things up all the time. 2) Even by your standard your methodology is erroneous since you completely ignore the key role that glottal stops CONSONANTS play in Mayan languages and the fact that Mande does not have the CONSONANT glottal stop. Thus no sound correspondence is possible. 3) sound correspondences are not the only thing that is involved in these determinations, there also has to be a corresponding MEANING as in your "feeble example. None of the many meanings of KU is "god"

just more spam

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quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
LOL yourself. 1) please quote a linguistics textbook that says that only consonants are important in determining genetic relationships-- you make things up all the time. 2) Even by your standard your methodology is erroneous since you completely ignore the key role that glottal stops CONSONANTS play in Mayan languages and the fact that Mande does not have the CONSONANT glottal stop. Thus no sound correspondence is possible. 3) sound correspondences are not the only thing that is involved in these determinations, there also has to be a corresponding MEANING as in your "feeble example. None of the many meanings of KU is "god"

just more spam

LOL. You don't know anything about comparative linguistics. You look for analogous consonants to determine a relationship.

For example lets look at the word feeble 'weak': (Latin) flabilis > (Fr.)faible > (Eng) Feeble=weak. If you notice these words have different vowels, but they share a similar phonological pattern: f-b-l. The words from these diverse languages shows regular sound correspondences. Thus we can say they are related.

The same thing is true of Mayan Ku/Qu 'god' and Mande Ku 'to be sacre'. To be sacre corresponds to 'god'.

You only concentrate on vowels when reconstructing a proto-language.

 -

You would know this if you were a linguist.

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Quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
LOL yourself. 1) please quote a linguistics textbook that says that only consonants are important in determining genetic relationships-- you make things up all the time. 2) Even by your standard your methodology is erroneous since you completely ignore the key role that glottal stops CONSONANTS play in Mayan languages and the fact that Mande does not have the CONSONANT glottal stop. Thus no sound correspondence is possible. 3) sound correspondences are not the only thing that is involved in these determinations, there also has to be a corresponding MEANING as in your "feeble example. None of the many meanings of KU is "god"

just more spam

LOL. You don't know anything about comparative linguistics. You look for analogous consonants to determine a relationship.

For example lets look at the word feeble 'weak': (Latin) flabilis > (Fr.)faible > (Eng) Feeble=weak. If you notice these words have different vowels, but they share a similar phonological pattern: f-b-l. The words from these diverse languages shows regular sound correspondences. Thus we can say they are related.

The same thing is true of Mayan Ku/Qu 'god' and Mande Ku 'to be sacre'. To be sacre corresponds to 'god'.

You only concentrate on vowels when reconstructing a proto-language.

 -

You would know this if you were a linguist.

Clyde, you think that repeating the same garbage over and over will somehow make it valid. Your page scan says nothing relevant to the discussion. Here you are not arguing that there have been regular "sound correspondences" between Mande and Mayan, such as the fact that German [v] like in "vater" shifts to [f] as in "father" in English, This can be seen in lots of words but you have not shown that this is so. You usually cite isolated random words. Here you are arguing that [ku] Mande is the same as [k7(usual sign for glottal stop) u]. However, this is impossible since the CONSONANT [glottal stop} does not exist in Mande. The most basic linguistics acknowledges that the glottal stop is a CONSONANT- if you know this , why do you never acknowledge its presence.

Further, please give the exact page number in Delafosse or other recognized mande dictionary where "ku" means "to be sacred".

Delafosse (1955 pp 415-420) has a number of definitions – none of them “god”
1 k/uo/ = “washing, to wash, to bathe”
2. k/uo/ = “yam Dioscorea alata”
3. k/uo/ = “tail, to stand in line, “
4. k/uo/ = “evil, bad, poor”
Four identically sounding words— they must be different tones

5. k/oun nasal vowel/] = “head, summit”
6. k/on nasal vowel/] = “that which should be isolated, to be sacred, adult, respect, etc.”

kuo, koun, kon do not sound like k/glottal stop/u, or k/glottal stop/uul or have the meaning of “god”.

Actually, "to be sacre" is NOT [ku].
Delafosse (1929) p. 616
etre sacre= ko-nya, ku-nya (funny how you conveniently forget that this MANDE WORD HAS TWO SYLLABLES) and definitely does not have sound or consonant correspondence to [kglottalstopu] i.e. [k7u]. Other forms on p. 616 {v. intr.) ta-nto; (v. intr.) etre- (s.)-ko-ma,ku-ma. Again all words with TWO syllables and not sound correspondent to [k7u].

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 -

South and Meso-American Mythology A to Z
By Ann Bingham, Jeremy Roberts

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
Actually, "to be sacre" is NOT [ku].
Delafosse (1929) p. 616
etre sacre= ko-nya, ku-nya (funny how you conveniently forget that this MANDE WORD HAS TWO SYLLABLES) and definitely does not have sound or consonant correspondence to [kglottalstopu] i.e. [k7u]. Other forms on p. 616 {v. intr.) ta-nto; (v. intr.) etre- (s.)-ko-ma,ku-ma. Again all words with TWO syllables and not sound correspondent to [k7u].

You don't know what you're talking about as usual. In Mande languages ku= to be sacre.

 -

Above [p.381] you can see that ku='[ etre sacre] to be sacre'.

Clearly you have read Delafosse why do you love to lie.

.

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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
Actually, "to be sacre" is NOT [ku].
Delafosse (1929) p. 616
etre sacre= ko-nya, ku-nya (funny how you conveniently forget that this MANDE WORD HAS TWO SYLLABLES) and definitely does not have sound or consonant correspondence to [kglottalstopu] i.e. [k7u]. Other forms on p. 616 {v. intr.) ta-nto; (v. intr.) etre- (s.)-ko-ma,ku-ma. Again all words with TWO syllables and not sound correspondent to [k7u].

You don't know what you're talking about as usual. In Mande languages ku= to be sacre.

 -

Above [p.381] you can see that ku='[ etre sacre] to be sacre'.

Clearly you have read Delafosse why do you love to lie.

.

You keep evading the point that the Mayan word is k'u i.e. [k7u] with the presence of a consonant (the glottal stop) that does not exist in Mande. Therefore there is no sound correspondence between the Mande and Mayan words even by your erroneous insistence on focusing on consonants. Have you ever admitted that a glottal stop is a consonant?
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quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
Actually, "to be sacre" is NOT [ku].
Delafosse (1929) p. 616
etre sacre= ko-nya, ku-nya (funny how you conveniently forget that this MANDE WORD HAS TWO SYLLABLES) and definitely does not have sound or consonant correspondence to [kglottalstopu] i.e. [k7u]. Other forms on p. 616 {v. intr.) ta-nto; (v. intr.) etre- (s.)-ko-ma,ku-ma. Again all words with TWO syllables and not sound correspondent to [k7u].

You don't know what you're talking about as usual. In Mande languages ku= to be sacre.

 -

Above [p.381] you can see that ku='[ etre sacre] to be sacre'.

Clearly you have read Delafosse why do you love to lie.

.

You keep evading the point that the Mayan word is k'u i.e. [k7u] with the presence of a consonant (the glottal stop) that does not exist in Mande. Therefore there is no sound correspondence between the Mande and Mayan words even by your erroneous insistence on focusing on consonants. Have you ever admitted that a glottal stop is a consonant?
Above [p.381] you can see that ku='[ etre sacre] to be sacre'. I have also shown that in relation to comparive linguistic we look for regular correspondence, especially in relation to the consonants.


I have proven throughout this debate you don't know anything about comparative linguistics. as a result , I will leave you in your ignorance.

.

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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[I have also shown that in relation to comparive linguistic we look for regular correspondence, especially in relation to the consonants.


I have proven throughout this debate you don't know anything about comparative linguistics. as a result , I will leave you in your ignorance.

.

Still avoiding the issue of the non-existing glottal dtop in Mande and its crucial importance in Mayan languages.

A blast from the past 1998. Scott and Carrasquer Vidal are professional linguists

quote:
From: scott@math.csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.anthropology
Subject: Re: New Olmec Religion Site
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 19:03:13 GMT
Organization: Cleveland State University

On 24 Jan 1998 17:37:21 GMT, cwinter@orion.it.luc.edu (Clyde A.
Winters) wrote:

[snips]

>Miguel Carrasquer Vidal (mcv@wxs.nl) wrote:
>: On 23 Jan 1998 00:08:53 GMT, cwinter@orion.it.luc.edu (Clyde A.
>: Winters) wrote:

>: >Moreover, your comments about
>: >ka'an and kan does not invalidate any of my arguments. The fact remains that in comparative linguistics we

>: We? I most strongly object!

>: >look for regular correspondence between letters and
>: >sounds to prove correspondence.

>: I rest my case. This is so wrong, I don't even know how to begin to
>: explain in how many different ways this sentence proves that Mr.
>: Winters hasn't got the foggiest notion of comparative linguistics, or
>: any kind of linguistics at all.
The terms "letters" and "sounds" have
>: not been used naively like this since the 19th century.
>: "Correspondences between letters and sounds" is most definitely not
>: what we're looking for in comparative linguistics. We don't "look for
>: correspondences to prove correspondences", that doesn't make any kind
>: of rational sense, let alone linguistical sense...

>This is nonsense.

No, it's a simple statement of fact.

> There is a relationship between Mayan and Mande languages
>which is proven through the use of comparative and historical methods.
> Linguistic evidence is the most convicing data supporting a
>Mande relationship with the Maya, and the Mande origin of Olmec
>culture.

In that case the theory is in serious trouble.

> A basic objective of the comparative linguist is to isolate
>words with common or similar meanings that have systematic
>consonantal agreement with little regards for the location and/or
>type of vowels.

That's a bit of an overstatement.

> Consonantal agreement is the regular appearance
>of consonants at certain locations in words having similar
>meanings and representing similar speech sounds.

Not necessarily; what are the 'similar speech sounds' in English
<furrow> and Welsh <rhych>, which are cognate?

> An examination of Mayan and Mande homophones indicate
>striking similarity. There is a connection between Malinke-
>Bambara and Yucatec homonyms for 'high, sky and serpent'.
> In Malinke-Bambara the word Ka and Kan means 'serpent, upon
>high,and sky'.

Then why do you give these words as <sa> in your table below?

> In Yucatec we find that can/kan and caan/kaan
>means ' serpent and heaven'.

Bernard has already pointed out (with documentation) that 'sky' is
<ka'an>, which has three consonants, not two.

> Often we find that Mande words beginning with /s/, appear as
>/c/ in the Mayan languages. For example, Malinke Bambara, the
>word sa means 'sell, to buy and market'. This is related to Mayan
>con 'to sell', and can 'serpent'. For example we have

>Mayan Malinke-Bambara
>can serpent sa
>con to sell sa, san
>can heaven, sky sa

At least one entry here, the last on the Maya side, is wrong.

> In these examples we see regular correspondence between the
>Mayan /c/ and Malinke-Bambara /s/.

And does this correspondence hold up elsewhere? What in
Malinke-Bambara corresponds to the glottal stop in <ka'an>?


Brian M. Scott
%%%%%%%
From: gkeyes6988@aol.com (GKeyes6988)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Mande and Mayan Connections
Date: 25 Jan 1998 23:33:57 GMT
Clyde Winters wrote
<snip>

(: Winters claims that the Yucatec Maya word for “mother” is “naal” which
: does not exist in Yucatec Maya according to the Cordemex dictionary. The
: term for mother is:

: p. 545 na’ or naa’ (glottal stop and strong pronounciation) which is still
: quite different from a simple “na”

(Winters)
..This is false there is no difference between na' and na.

This is the equivalent of saying there is no difference between English "to"and "top", "be" and "bet" or "do" and "dog". The glottal stop is a consonant-- not one that's important in English, but which is important indeed in Mayan.
Again, it seems that the key to Mr. Winter's comparisons is not knowing much about Mayan or linguistics.

%%%%%%%
From: Akan@pizlink.net (Akan Ifriqiya)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology,sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Mande and Mayan Connections
Date: 26 Jan 1998 08:27:02 GMT

In article <6agu1n$cuv$1@artemis.it.luc.edu>, cwinter@orion.it.luc.edu
says...
>
>Benjamin H. Diebold (benjamin.diebold@yale.edu) wrote:
>: In article <6aemlc$qe$1@artemis.it.luc.edu>, cwinter@orion.it.luc.edu
>: (Clyde A. Winters) wrote:
SNIP
>: > This is false there is no difference between na' and na.
>
>: Hello?
>
>: I don't know much about linguistics, but when I start dropping my glottal
>: stops in Arabic, people stop understanding me (even more than usual).
>: Winters absolutely has to be wrong here; he's simply imposing his own
>: cultural paradigm on this linguistic argument.
>
>
>For comparison purposes we don't have to refer to the pronunciation of
>the word unless we are reconstructing the Proto-Language.
>
>C.A. Winters

What? Sahibi, the glottal stop is an integral part of the word, it is not some mere artefact of pronounciation! In arabic, as in other languages using the glottal, if you don't use the glottal, you have an utterly *different* word! Like na's versus na?s (where ? is the ain and ' is the glottal or hamza). What rubbish statements are you proposing here?
Ramira Naka

Twelve years later. Clyde continues to make the same mistakes and demonstrate linguistic ignorance and he never admit errors.
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quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
Actually, "to be sacre" is NOT [ku].
Delafosse (1929) p. 616
etre sacre= ko-nya, ku-nya (funny how you conveniently forget that this MANDE WORD HAS TWO SYLLABLES) and definitely does not have sound or consonant correspondence to [kglottalstopu] i.e. [k7u]. Other forms on p. 616 {v. intr.) ta-nto; (v. intr.) etre- (s.)-ko-ma,ku-ma. Again all words with TWO syllables and not sound correspondent to [k7u].

You don't know what you're talking about as usual. In Mande languages ku= to be sacre.

 -

Above [p.381] you can see that ku='[ etre sacre] to be sacre'.

Clearly you have read Delafosse why do you love to lie.

.

You keep evading the point that the Mayan word is k'u i.e. [k7u] with the presence of a consonant (the glottal stop) that does not exist in Mande. Therefore there is no sound correspondence between the Mande and Mayan words even by your erroneous insistence on focusing on consonants. Have you ever admitted that a glottal stop is a consonant?
Above [p.381] you can see that ku='[ etre sacre] to be sacre'. I have also shown that in relation to comparive linguistic we look for regular correspondence, especially in relation to the consonants.


I have proven throughout this debate you don't know anything about comparative linguistics. as a result , I will leave you in your ignorance.

.

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I'll have a quick guess, Booker T. Washington!? [Big Grin]

--------------------
state of mind

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quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
Probably the most interesting thing I have read in awhile. Especially considering this mural:

 -

Look at the color of the figures's hands and feet-- not black. They are either pained black or wearing black costumes.
Thought about that too but I see a compelling story. This picure appears to show a meeting of two cultures. One a Iron age culture - the Black African, and the other the Mayan people. If that is the case then the man on the left is wearing a Black leopard suit. The man on the right has faded paint on his feet.
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^ note that many of the Brown skinned mayans have lighter skinned feet, are they also painted?

May simply be a way to indicate that the sole of the feet are white.

Basically the man on the left is not a Black African but someone dressed up to meet a Black African. They think this Black person is a Leopard God of some kind and they are greeting him in this manner.

It means a Black African traveler made it to the new world.

Very plausible considering the advancement of West African empires by this time.

--------------------
Definition of Insanity: Doing the same thing the same way over and over again but expecting different results.

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 -


After Neil Steede and I deciphered the ‘Salazer Brick’ from Comalcalco made it clear that you can read the Mayan script based on Olmec—while reading the inscriptions in the Mayan language. To test this theory I deciphered some the Ek-Chuah Black Trader god from the Tro-Crotensiana Codex.

 -


It is interesting to note that the boys drilling are depicted as Blacks in the Dresden and Tro-Cotesianus Codexes.

To read the Mayan inscriptions I break down the Olmec syllabic signs which make up the Mayan hierogyphs. Once these signs are given a phonetic value I read them in Yucatec Maya.

Below we will discuss some of these inscriptions.

 -

 -

 -


 -



 -

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Clyde Winters
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To read the Mayan inscriptions I break down the Olmec syllabic signs which make up the Mayan hierogyphs. Once these signs are given a phonetic value I read them in Yucatec Maya.


 -


 -


 -


 -


As you can see when you look at the syllabic nature of many Mayan hieroglyphs the Codexs tell us much more than dates.


.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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The glottal stop is associated with the pronunciation of vowels and consonants. See:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmS0zjuYkzs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edxwQK1zBxw


You attempt to make it appear that there is no relationship between the Mayan and Mande languages because of the glottal stop. You claim that you can not determine a relationship between these languages because the glottal stop in Mayan languages represent a consonant. This is not necessarially true. Granted there are five glottalized Mayan consonants ch’, k’, p’, t’ and ts’, but most glottal stops in the Mayan languages is associated with vowel sounds. See:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v83X3TE4-kU


quote:
  • http://www.mostlymaya.com/IntroMayaLang.html

    A Brief Introduction to Yucatec Mayan
    Copyright D. R. Shreve, 1999
    Also see English-Mayan dictionary

    To get a great phrase book by the late John Montgomery

    Pronunciation
    Relatively little time has passed between the current way of spelling Mayan words and how they are pronounced. For that reason alone, there has been little opportunity for the oral to diverge from the written, and so, it is usually important to pronounce each letter shown. Commonly contracted word combinations will be spelled as such.
    Most letters shown here are pronounced as in English, except that the following are always pronounced as follows:
    a, like the a in father.
    b, silent if at the end of a plural noun or verb.
    e, as the a in lake.
    i, as the ee in feel.
    o, as the o in bowl.
    x, the sh as in shoe.
    Two vowels in a row are longer than a single vowel. In any situation, this tends to give the syllable they are in an emphasis. For example, beetik (to do) has more accent in the first syllable.
    Two vowels with an accent on the first one slightly emphasize that first vowel. Note that this does not create a second syllable in the word, just a slight shift in emphasis.
    Some consonants have an accent mark after them and are another matter. These are glottalized letters and are pronounced with a quick expulsion of air, for example:
    ch’, k’, p’, t’ and ts’ .

    One way to hear these letters glottalized is to go to your library and get a recording of Stephen Hawking speaking. When his artificial voice pronounces these letters at the end of a word, it glottalizes them. Barring this, the p’ is easiest to describe. Pretend you are disgusted with something, and spit out "Pah." Spit toward the ground and away from the wind. Now be a bit more amiable, and less explosive and try it in the word p’aak, or tomato, which is far different in meaning from paak, a verb meaning to double.
    With ch’, k’, t’ and ts’, what you need to do is to form the letters in your mouth as you normally would, but at the very beginning, force them out quickly. The k includes a clicking sound.
    Remember that in Yucatec, as far as pronunciation goes, the only difference between some words, such as kaax (a chicken) and k’aax (jungle) is the way you say the glottalized sound. This may not be a problem, since you are much more likely to refer to fried chicken (kaax tsabil) than to talk about felling some jungle (luubsik k’aax), but it could be confusing if you are trying to say k beetik (or, we do) instead of k’abeetik (it is very necessary to...).
    Vowels with an apostrophe following them indicate a glottal stop, such as when a person quickly says "oh oh," though the actual stoppage may seem barely noticeable, and may, at other times, be better described as a glottal pause. At the end of a word you cut the vowel in two by shutting it off with your windpipe.
    In any word of more than one syllable, the stop will tend to emphasize the preceding portion of the word. For example, waye’ (here) pronounced wa-YEAH, though with the glottal stop it is more like wa-YE, because you must cut it short.
    Once you realize that most Maya place names seem to be heavily accented in the last syllable, it is easy to assume the same for the other words, but that is not the case. One situation is when the word is normally a one syllable word that you have added to, the root word will still be accented. For example, when bel (road) is plural, as in belo'ob or you are referring to that road, as in le belo or even those roads le belo'obo, the accent will normally remain on bel. There will be the slight emphasis caused by a double vowel or a glottal stop, but, other than that, the best bet with a word of more than one syllable is to pronounce them all with equal emphasis.

Given this reality we can see a relationship between Mande Ku ‘sacre’ and Mayan K’u ‘god’ We still have the K sound, eventhough there is the glottal Mayan K’. See:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=qr9jx9ouwgI&NR=1


R. J. Sharer, The Ancient Maya, http://books.google.com/books?id=YdgXZao23l0C&pg=PA131&lpg=PA131&dq=maya+glottal+stop&source=bl&ots=zZewlRoxn8&sig=6hDTKJny6r0Bssr4HLjTQZwbHCw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lfETUIffCYL8qAH034CICA& ved=0CFYQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=maya%20glottal%20stop&f=false

.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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Clyde Winters
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Bernard you love to make an issue of the glottal stop to make it appear that this would deny the possibility of claiming a relationship between the Mande and Mayan languages this is false.

quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
Still avoiding the issue of the non-existing glottal dtop in Mande and its crucial importance in Mayan languages.

A blast from the past 1998. Scott and Carrasquer Vidal are professional linguists

quote:
From: scott@math.csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.anthropology
Subject: Re: New Olmec Religion Site
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 19:03:13 GMT
Organization: Cleveland State University

On 24 Jan 1998 17:37:21 GMT, cwinter@orion.it.luc.edu (Clyde A.
Winters) wrote:

[snips]

>Miguel Carrasquer Vidal (mcv@wxs.nl) wrote:
>: On 23 Jan 1998 00:08:53 GMT, cwinter@orion.it.luc.edu (Clyde A.
>: Winters) wrote:

>: >Moreover, your comments about
>: >ka'an and kan does not invalidate any of my arguments. The fact remains that in comparative linguistics we

>: We? I most strongly object!

>: >look for regular correspondence between letters and
>: >sounds to prove correspondence.

>: I rest my case. This is so wrong, I don't even know how to begin to
>: explain in how many different ways this sentence proves that Mr.
>: Winters hasn't got the foggiest notion of comparative linguistics, or
>: any kind of linguistics at all.
The terms "letters" and "sounds" have
>: not been used naively like this since the 19th century.
>: "Correspondences between letters and sounds" is most definitely not
>: what we're looking for in comparative linguistics. We don't "look for
>: correspondences to prove correspondences", that doesn't make any kind
>: of rational sense, let alone linguistical sense...

>This is nonsense.

No, it's a simple statement of fact.

> There is a relationship between Mayan and Mande languages
>which is proven through the use of comparative and historical methods.
> Linguistic evidence is the most convicing data supporting a
>Mande relationship with the Maya, and the Mande origin of Olmec
>culture.

In that case the theory is in serious trouble.

> A basic objective of the comparative linguist is to isolate
>words with common or similar meanings that have systematic
>consonantal agreement with little regards for the location and/or
>type of vowels.

That's a bit of an overstatement.

> Consonantal agreement is the regular appearance
>of consonants at certain locations in words having similar
>meanings and representing similar speech sounds.

Not necessarily; what are the 'similar speech sounds' in English
<furrow> and Welsh <rhych>, which are cognate?

> An examination of Mayan and Mande homophones indicate
>striking similarity. There is a connection between Malinke-
>Bambara and Yucatec homonyms for 'high, sky and serpent'.
> In Malinke-Bambara the word Ka and Kan means 'serpent, upon
>high,and sky'.

Then why do you give these words as <sa> in your table below?

> In Yucatec we find that can/kan and caan/kaan
>means ' serpent and heaven'.

Bernard has already pointed out (with documentation) that 'sky' is
<ka'an>, which has three consonants, not two.

> Often we find that Mande words beginning with /s/, appear as
>/c/ in the Mayan languages. For example, Malinke Bambara, the
>word sa means 'sell, to buy and market'. This is related to Mayan
>con 'to sell', and can 'serpent'. For example we have

>Mayan Malinke-Bambara
>can serpent sa
>con to sell sa, san
>can heaven, sky sa

At least one entry here, the last on the Maya side, is wrong.

> In these examples we see regular correspondence between the
>Mayan /c/ and Malinke-Bambara /s/.

And does this correspondence hold up elsewhere? What in
Malinke-Bambara corresponds to the glottal stop in <ka'an>?


Brian M. Scott
%%%%%%%
From: gkeyes6988@aol.com (GKeyes6988)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Mande and Mayan Connections
Date: 25 Jan 1998 23:33:57 GMT
Clyde Winters wrote
<snip>

(: Winters claims that the Yucatec Maya word for “mother” is “naal” which
: does not exist in Yucatec Maya according to the Cordemex dictionary. The
: term for mother is:

: p. 545 na’ or naa’ (glottal stop and strong pronounciation) which is still
: quite different from a simple “na”

(Winters)
..This is false there is no difference between na' and na.

This is the equivalent of saying there is no difference between English "to"and "top", "be" and "bet" or "do" and "dog". The glottal stop is a consonant-- not one that's important in English, but which is important indeed in Mayan.
Again, it seems that the key to Mr. Winter's comparisons is not knowing much about Mayan or linguistics.

%%%%%%%
From: Akan@pizlink.net (Akan Ifriqiya)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology,sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Mande and Mayan Connections
Date: 26 Jan 1998 08:27:02 GMT

In article <6agu1n$cuv$1@artemis.it.luc.edu>, cwinter@orion.it.luc.edu
says...
>
>Benjamin H. Diebold (benjamin.diebold@yale.edu) wrote:
>: In article <6aemlc$qe$1@artemis.it.luc.edu>, cwinter@orion.it.luc.edu
>: (Clyde A. Winters) wrote:
SNIP
>: > This is false there is no difference between na' and na.
>
>: Hello?
>
>: I don't know much about linguistics, but when I start dropping my glottal
>: stops in Arabic, people stop understanding me (even more than usual).
>: Winters absolutely has to be wrong here; he's simply imposing his own
>: cultural paradigm on this linguistic argument.
>
>
>For comparison purposes we don't have to refer to the pronunciation of
>the word unless we are reconstructing the Proto-Language.
>
>C.A. Winters

What? Sahibi, the glottal stop is an integral part of the word, it is not some mere artefact of pronounciation! In arabic, as in other languages using the glottal, if you don't use the glottal, you have an utterly *different* word! Like na's versus na?s (where ? is the ain and ' is the glottal or hamza). What rubbish statements are you proposing here?
Ramira Naka

Twelve years later. Clyde continues to make the same mistakes and demonstrate linguistic ignorance and he never admit errors.
Oh yes I remember this discussion. I used to post to sci.archaeology. This was a biased site. To make it appear I lost debates Doug Weller who was the moderator of the site would ban me from the site long enough to make sure the readers thought I had lost the debate.

What I like about ES is that you can make a statement, to get your point across.

As I have always made clear in all of my post in comparative linguistic you look at words to determine regular correspondence in relation to the consonants. Due to tone the same words can be pronunced with a slight differce, but this difference will not take away the fact two words are cognate terms.


There are five ways to say a vowel in Maya. See:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v83X3TE4-kU

The pronunciation of the Mayan /a’/ would not make the Mande pronunciation of /a/ that much different. As you can hear from the video the /a’/ is not a consonant.


You dispute my comparison of Mande Kan and Mayan kan/Kaan ‘sky’. Here is the pronunciation of Mayan term for ‘sky’. See

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=qr9jx9ouwgI&NR=1

Finally, you are not a linguist. The discussants in the sci-archaeology post were just showing bias. They could get away with this because Doug Weller, wanted it to appear I was wrong.

.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

Posts: 12261 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
[QB] Still avoiding the issue of the non-existing glottal dtop in Mande and its crucial importance in Mayan languages.

A blast from the past 1998. Scott and Carrasquer Vidal are professional linguists

[QUOTE]From: scott@math.csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.anthropology
Subject: Re: New Olmec Religion Site
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 19:03:13 GMT
Organization: Cleveland State University

On 24 Jan 1998 17:37:21 GMT, cwinter@orion.it.luc.edu (Clyde A.
Winters) wrote:

[snips]

>Miguel Carrasquer Vidal (mcv@wxs.nl) wrote:
>: On 23 Jan 1998 00:08:53 GMT, cwinter@orion.it.luc.edu (Clyde A.
>: Winters) wrote:

>: >Moreover, your comments about
>: >ka'an and kan does not invalidate any of my arguments. The fact remains that in comparative linguistics we

>: We? I most strongly object!

>: >look for regular correspondence between letters and
>: >sounds to prove correspondence.

>: I rest my case. This is so wrong, I don't even know how to begin to
>: explain in how many different ways this sentence proves that Mr.
>: Winters hasn't got the foggiest notion of comparative linguistics, or
>: any kind of linguistics at all.
The terms "letters" and "sounds" have
>: not been used naively like this since the 19th century.
>: "Correspondences between letters and sounds" is most definitely not
>: what we're looking for in comparative linguistics. We don't "look for
>: correspondences to prove correspondences", that doesn't make any kind
>: of rational sense, let alone linguistical sense...

>This is nonsense.

No, it's a simple statement of fact.

> There is a relationship between Mayan and Mande languages
>which is proven through the use of comparative and historical methods.
> Linguistic evidence is the most convicing data supporting a
>Mande relationship with the Maya, and the Mande origin of Olmec
>culture.

In that case the theory is in serious trouble.

> A basic objective of the comparative linguist is to isolate
>words with common or similar meanings that have systematic
>consonantal agreement with little regards for the location and/or
>type of vowels.

That's a bit of an overstatement.

> Consonantal agreement is the regular appearance
>of consonants at certain locations in words having similar
>meanings and representing similar speech sounds.

Not necessarily; what are the 'similar speech sounds' in English
<furrow> and Welsh <rhych>, which are cognate?

> An examination of Mayan and Mande homophones indicate
>striking similarity. There is a connection between Malinke-
>Bambara and Yucatec homonyms for 'high, sky and serpent'.
> In Malinke-Bambara the word Ka and Kan means 'serpent, upon
>high,and sky'.

Then why do you give these words as <sa> in your table below?

> In Yucatec we find that can/kan and caan/kaan
>means ' serpent and heaven'.

Bernard has already pointed out (with documentation) that 'sky' is
<ka'an>, which has three consonants, not two.

> Often we find that Mande words beginning with /s/, appear as
>/c/ in the Mayan languages. For example, Malinke Bambara, the
>word sa means 'sell, to buy and market'. This is related to Mayan
>con 'to sell', and can 'serpent'. For example we have

>Mayan Malinke-Bambara
>can serpent sa
>con to sell sa, san
>can heaven, sky sa

At least one entry here, the last on the Maya side, is wrong.

> In these examples we see regular correspondence between the
>Mayan /c/ and Malinke-Bambara /s/.

And does this correspondence hold up elsewhere? What in
Malinke-Bambara corresponds to the glottal stop in <ka'an>?


Brian M. Scott
%%%%%%%
From: gkeyes6988@aol.com (GKeyes6988)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Mande and Mayan Connections
Date: 25 Jan 1998 23:33:57 GMT
Clyde Winters wrote
<snip>

(: Winters claims that the Yucatec Maya word for “mother” is “naal” which
: does not exist in Yucatec Maya according to the Cordemex dictionary. The
: term for mother is:

: p. 545 na’ or naa’ (glottal stop and strong pronounciation) which is still
: quite different from a simple “na”

(Winters)
..This is false there is no difference between na' and na.

This is the equivalent of saying there is no difference between English "to"and "top", "be" and "bet" or "do" and "dog". The glottal stop is a consonant-- not one that's important in English, but which is important indeed in Mayan.
Again, it seems that the key to Mr. Winter's comparisons is not knowing much about Mayan or linguistics.

%%%%%%%
From: Akan@pizlink.net (Akan Ifriqiya)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology,sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Mande and Mayan Connections
Date: 26 Jan 1998 08:27:02 GMT

In article <6agu1n$cuv$1@artemis.it.luc.edu>, cwinter@orion.it.luc.edu
says...
>
>Benjamin H. Diebold (benjamin.diebold@yale.edu) wrote:
>: In article <6aemlc$qe$1@artemis.it.luc.edu>, cwinter@orion.it.luc.edu
>: (Clyde A. Winters) wrote:
SNIP
>: > This is false there is no difference between na' and na.
>
>: Hello?
>
>: I don't know much about linguistics, but when I start dropping my glottal
>: stops in Arabic, people stop understanding me (even more than usual).
>: Winters absolutely has to be wrong here; he's simply imposing his own
>: cultural paradigm on this linguistic argument.
>
>
>For comparison purposes we don't have to refer to the pronunciation of
>the word unless we are reconstructing the Proto-Language.
>
>C.A. Winters

What? Sahibi, the glottal stop is an integral part of the word, it is not some mere artefact of pronounciation! In arabic, as in other languages using the glottal, if you don't use the glottal, you have an utterly *different* word! Like na's versus na?s (where ? is the ain and ' is the glottal or hamza). What rubbish statements are you proposing here?
Ramira Naka

The statements in this post are false. They claim that <ka’an> has three consonants. This was false . It only has two consonants <k-n>, /a’/ is just a glottalized vowel . See:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v83X3TE4-kU

In Yucatek the word for mother is <naa> this agrees with the Mande term for mother. See:

 -

The the pronunciation of sky in the Mayan Yucatek language is really <kaan>. In the Preliminary Mayan Etymological Dictionary

See:

 -

The pronuanciation of Mande and Mayan terms for sky agree.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=qr9jx9ouwgI&NR=1

This shows that I was not wrong in finding a relationship between the Mayan and Mande terms for sky.


.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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Quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
Probably the most interesting thing I have read in awhile. Especially considering this mural:

 -

Look at the color of the figures's hands and feet-- not black. They are either pained black or wearing black costumes.
Thought about that too but I see a compelling story. This picure appears to show a meeting of two cultures. One a Iron age culture - the Black African, and the other the Mayan people. If that is the case then the man on the left is wearing a Black leopard suit. The man on the right has faded paint on his feet.
Actually this represents a meeting in the underworld not a meeting on earth. Further, there never was any iron in the New World in pre-columbian times. But it is a nice imaginative rendition that accounts for the red coloring of the flesh.
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