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Author Topic: 'New' clues from thesis, including Nekht Ankh's Mtdna and yellow skin color in art
Swenet
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quote:
For example, short mitochondrial DNA sequences have been recovered from
the remains of a liver found in a canopic jar belonging to Nekht-Ankh, a priest of the
Middle Kingdom.77 These sequences when compared to the sequences recovered from
the Delta population (Lower Egypt), it were found to be identical to four of the
modern Egyptian mitochondrial lineages. Preliminary results from PCR on the Nile
Delta population in the late 1980s found that “small subsets of modern Egyptian
mitochondrial DNA lineages are closely related to Sub-Saharan African lineages.”78

Thus PCR, although dogged by problems of contamination from human
handling of material during and after excavation as well as from fungi, bacteria and
other agents, is primarily aimed at studying ancient populations and their interactions
within their historical context and not necessarily to label them “black” or “white.”

p28

quote:
Based on artistic depictions, it is true that in the Old Kingdom, “Egyptian men
were depicted as reddish brown, women yellow and people living in the south
black.”176 Some Afrocentrists by relating this to other African practices, convincingly
propose that the color symbolism was related to the ancient Egyptian religious
conceptualization of the cycle of life and death. The paint consisted of red ochre, an
oxide of iron and a vegetable gum binder. The paint probably signified the “blood of
life” encompassed in the male and the yellow represented “fertility” encompassed in
the female.
The ancient Egyptian society was patriarchal and the economy was based
primarily on agricultural fertility. These implications of color symbolism may then hold ground.
Furthermore, the goddess Hathor, who was believed to give birth to the yellow sun
everyday, was considered the “patroness of women.”

p52-54


http://etd.ohiolink.edu/send-pdf.cgi?miami1090531381

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Narmerthoth
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^ Obviously a test performed by Albinos who've withheld key DNA data confirming the presence/absence of the OCA gene defect (Albino), and melanin density.
They've certainly run these tests and as usual, withheld these test results which would prove "RACE" without a shadow of doubt.

Albinos have a long history of uninterrupted lying. Trust nothing they post or say without being triple confirmed for truthfulness/accuracy.
They are; GUILTY, until proven innocent.

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Swenet
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The thesis was written by a Kenyan 'Henry Louis Gates' type black who is more than happy to deny black Egypt in front of her white academic peers, for a few pats on the back.

I'm still not sure if the absence of the actual name of the ''lineage' is due to her not citing it, or due to the geneticists omitting it. I presume its the latter since Paabo et al (the geneticists implicated here) also didn't reveal the name of the Sub-Saharan lineages they extracted from 12th dynasty royal remains.

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Narmerthoth
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^ After reviewing the thesis, it sounds exactly like something Oshun would propose. A
She proposes the start of Afrocentric studies didn't began until Molefi Kete Asante in the 60s.

 -

After completing the thesis and all it's inaccuracies, misinterpreted information, and false assumptions, all I can say is;
It's a damn shame how susceptible Negro African women are to Albino indoctrination techniques.

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JujuMan
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Romeo NOT done! [Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin]

--------------------
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BrandonP
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Based on artistic depictions, it is true that in the Old Kingdom, “Egyptian men
were depicted as reddish brown, women yellow and people living in the south
black.”176 Some Afrocentrists by relating this to other African practices, convincingly
propose that the color symbolism was related to the ancient Egyptian religious
conceptualization of the cycle of life and death. The paint consisted of red ochre, an
oxide of iron and a vegetable gum binder. The paint probably signified the “blood of
life” encompassed in the male and the yellow represented “fertility” encompassed in
the female.
The ancient Egyptian society was patriarchal and the economy was based
primarily on agricultural fertility. These implications of color symbolism may then hold ground.
Furthermore, the goddess Hathor, who was believed to give birth to the yellow sun
everyday, was considered the “patroness of women.”


I would like to know exactly which African practices she's referring to, though it's definitely a more compelling explanation than the orthodox suntanning hypothesis.
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Narmerthoth
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Good Dawgy..
 -

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Djehuti
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^ LOL

Regardless of whether the author is under the influence of her white peers, what matters are her findings which show that ancient Egyptians as well as some modern day Egyptians from the delta share so-called 'Sub-Saharan' lineages.

Such findings are of course a dime a dozen of the genetic findings on ancient remains, which is all the more hilarious why the black identity of the Egyptians all but stated by academia. [Embarrassed]

quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:

I would like to know exactly which African practices she's referring to, though it's definitely a more compelling explanation than the orthodox suntanning hypothesis.

She's referring to the practice of painting the body with red ochre which is practiced by many Nilotic groups though it's also practiced by some Niger-Congo speaking pastoralists in the Sahel and even some Bantu pastoralists.

I'm not sure if the reddish brown hue of Egyptian males had to do with concepts of the blood of life so much as the average complexion, though the yellow coloring of females may very well have to do with actual symbolism since as I've pointed out several times before there are Afrisian speaking groups whose women paint themselves with yellow ochre especially on special occasions from the Saharan Tuareg to women in Ethiopia.

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

The thesis was written by a Kenyan 'Henry Louis Gates' type black who is more than happy to deny black Egypt in front of her white academic peers, for a few pats on the back.

I'm still not sure if the absence of the actual name of the ''lineage' is due to her not citing it, or due to the geneticists omitting it. I presume its the latter since Paabo et al (the geneticists implicated here) also didn't reveal the name of the Sub-Saharan lineages they extracted from 12th dynasty royal remains.

LOL I'm sure if these lineages were 'Near Eastern' or even European, we would not only know which specific lineages these were but we would NEVER heard the end of these findings. Of course since these lineages were 'Sub-Saharan' they are exactly headline news and considered academic obscurity to the public. [Embarrassed]
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BrandonP
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
I'm not sure if the reddish brown hue of Egyptian males had to do with concepts of the blood of life so much as the average complexion, though the yellow coloring of females may very well have to do with actual symbolism since as I've pointed out several times before there are Afrisian speaking groups whose women paint themselves with yellow ochre especially on special occasions from the Saharan Tuareg to women in Ethiopia.

It does seem like a double standard to hold one gender's coloration as the population's average complexion while dismissing the other gender's color as purely symbolic. Why can't the colors used for both men and women be symbolic?
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Swenet
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For everyone wondering why I described her the way I did, look at this piece, from her conclusion:

quote:
In conclusion, it is evident that “race” as understood today in terms of skin
color was not a key identity marker for the ancient Egyptian. Furthermore, “the first to
call special attention to the Nubian’s [Nehesi] blackness were people [the Greeks]
living outside Africa.”204
In addition, the division of mankind into races as understood
in the modern sense began with F. Bernier in the seventeenth century of our
era.205Thus the Afrocentric insistence on the ancient Egyptians as a black race proves
anachronistic
and limited because the ancient Egyptian did not conceptualize himself
or herself in this way.

Leaving aside the issue of whether or not the Ancient Egyptians saw themselves as part of the same lineage as people to the South, how is it okay for her to be talking about the blackness of Napatan Nubians, yet, a few lines later, complain it is anachronistic to refer to Egyptians as such?

The last time I checked, the ancient Egyptians and ancient Sudanese were contemporary, and so, it would have to be anachronistic to refer to Sudanese as 'black' as well.

The fact that she doesn't treat Napatans the same as the ancient Egyptians, shows there are other motives for shying away from calling them, or at least them, sans the nationalized Asiatics and Mediterraneans, black.

Her thesis is in fact full with nagging complaints from herself and Egyptologists about why its problematic to refer to people as either black or white in a biological sense, yadi yadi yadi, only to reveal the triviality of such pretended 'expert posturing' by calling Napatan and Meroitic Nubians black several lines later.

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
I'm not sure if the reddish brown hue of Egyptian males had to do with concepts of the blood of life so much as the average complexion

It has been mentioned before by Egyptologists that the red paint may have had a youthful connotation to it, and there are several murals that confirm this, such as this one:

 -

You don't see it in this repro, but the original image of this mural is similar to these scenes:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3tPMmmmHr-I/TqI-FCSLkhI/AAAAAAAACKg/-pxuIACDy5w/s640/ancient-egyptian-circumcision.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Akmanthor.jpg

in the sense that the two figures who are doing the shooting are depicted lighter skinned (reddish), while the instructing figures behind them are depicted darker skinned (brown proper).

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
LOL I'm sure if these lineages were 'Near Eastern' or even European, we would not only know which specific lineages these were but we would NEVER heard the end of these findings.

Well, whatever continental origin one believes this lineage has, it is another slap in the face of those who hold that the Ancient Egyptians are identical to the moderns.

Nekht Ankh

 -

 -

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BrandonP
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
Leaving aside the issue of whether or not the Ancient Egyptians saw themselves as part of the same lineage as people to the South, how is it okay for her to be talking about the blackness of Napatan Nubians, yet, a few lines later, complain it is anachronistic to refer to Egyptians as such?

The last time I checked, the ancient Egyptians and ancient Sudanese were contemporary, and so, it would have to be anachronistic to refer to Sudanese as 'black' as well.

The fact that she doesn't treat Napatans the same as the ancient Egyptians, shows there are other motives for shying away from calling them, or at least them, sans the nationalized Asiatics and Mediterraneans, black.

Her thesis is in fact full with nagging complaints from herself and Egyptologists about why its problematic to refer to people as either black or white in a biological sense, yadi yadi yadi, only to reveal the triviality of such pretended 'expert posturing' by calling Napatan and Meroitic Nubians black several lines later.

You're far from the only one who has observed this double standard. The orthodoxy celebrates the Nubians as the "Black Pharaohs" all the time, but once you suggest that the Egyptians themselves may have also qualified for the "black" adjective they distract you with this whole "modern racial categories didn't exist back then". I'm all for giving the Nubian civilization more attention, but if Egyptologists want to advertise the Nubians' race, they can't play the anti-racialist with the Egyptians.

BTW, if Egyptian color schemes for men were really symbolic as implied by the thesis author, I bet that a lot of Egyptians, especially those in Upper Egypt, weren't that much lighter than Nubians.

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Thule
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The sallow or light hue of ancient egyptian females was not symbolic, but represents their real skin hue. Eye-witness descriptions of such pigmentation of living ancient egyptians is found preserved in various papyrus -

quote:
Snachomenus, aged about 20, of middle size, sallow complexion, round faced and straight nosed
This is from an ancient papyrus translated by Dr. Young, found in Morton (1846). There are many more examples.

Game over Afronuts...

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BrandonP
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^ Funny, I entered Snachomenus into Google and didn't get any results whatsoever.

--------------------
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My art thread on ES

And my books thread

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist:
The sallow or light hue of ancient egyptian females was not symbolic, but represents their real skin hue. Eye-witness descriptions of such pigmentation of living ancient egyptians is found preserved in various papyrus -

quote:
Snachomenus, aged about 20, of middle size, sallow complexion, round faced and straight nosed
This is from an ancient papyrus translated by Dr. Young, found in Morton (1846). There are many more examples.

Game over Afronuts...

What was the skin color of the other Egyptians in that papyrus, you phucking fraud. Also, next time, make sure you add the fact that the document is late period. No one is arguing that many Egyptians had honey colored skin tones by that time.

 -  -  -  -

Try again, dufus.

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:
You're far from the only one who has observed this double standard. The orthodoxy celebrates the Nubians as the "Black Pharaohs" all the time, but once you suggest that the Egyptians themselves may have also qualified for the "black" adjective they distract you with this whole "modern racial categories didn't exist back then". I'm all for giving the Nubian civilization more attention, but if Egyptologists want to advertise the Nubians' race, they can't play the anti-racialist with the Egyptians.

Agree.

quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:
BTW, if Egyptian color schemes for men were really symbolic as implied by the thesis author, I bet that a lot of Egyptians, especially those in Upper Egypt, weren't that much lighter than Nubians.

If you ask me, the Ancient Egyptians weren't pigmented to the max either, like some Nubian groups would have been. If you look at early holocenic cave paintings, such as the cave of swimmers, the people are painted (mostly) brown skinned, I believe more highly pigmented figures are also represented. I wouldn't say symbolic coloration extended that far back in time. Slightly lighter skin color should be expected, given their latitude.
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the lioness,
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http://books.google.com/books?id=NKWm9Q0vbT4C&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=

 -
Facial reconstruction of the two brothers, Nekht-Ankh and Knum-Nakht by Richard Neave

Skull of Nekht-Ankh
 -

The skull is the matrix upon which the head and face we built. If the shape of the soft tissue can be rebuilt on a skull, the result will be a reconstruction which the proportion and position of the main, features will be accurate. By utilising measurements of soft issue thickness, as established by Kollman end Buchly in 1898, the features of these two mummies were built up in clay on casts of the skull.

Nevertheless the details of certain areas - nose. mouth and ears - are open to speculation. Both Nekht-Ankh and Khnum-Nakht showed a marked similarity to the two small wooden statuettes, which were found in the tomb.


The tomb of the two brothers, Khnum-Nakht and Nekht-Ankh, was discovered by a workman called Erfai, working under the supervision of British Egyptologist Ernest Mackay in the course of official excavations directed by Sir William Flinders Petrie (1852-1942), within the British School of Archaeology. The contents of the burial site were passed to the Manchester Museum where they were studied by Margaret Murray (1908) and more recently by Prof. Rosalie David (1979).
The two brothers came from Der Rifeh in Middle Egypt and originate from the 12th Dynasty (c.1985-1773 BC). Their burial was the finest non-royal tomb found in that area.


 -

 -

Forensic Facial Reconstruction
By Caroline Wilkinson

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the lioness,
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.


IGBO WEDDINGS
 -

 -
significant differences in skin tone
this couldn't happen in Egypt???


^^^^^ If this happens frequently amoung Igbos why, when you look at some couples depicted in Egyptian art, would one assume that the lighter color SOME woman have in the Egyptian art is "symbolic" ????
-why not ALL the women is it's symbolism?
-in fact many women in couples are also NOT lighter in color in the art
 -
_________________________________^^^ no difference here

-the assumption of some sort of symbolism does not even apply consistently on couples because while SOME couples in Egypt are portrayed with different complexions (as similar to the Igbo couple above) plenty of OTHER couples are portrayed with the SAME complexion.
And where is the support in Egyptian texts?


.


Sennefer and Hatshepsut-Meryetre, 18th Dynsaty

 -
 -
lioness productions

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Djehuti
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^ LOL Sorry lyinass but ancient Egyptians color symbolism is different from modern day favoritism of women with actual light complexions.
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
I'm not sure if the reddish brown hue of Egyptian males had to do with concepts of the blood of life so much as the average complexion

It has been mentioned before by Egyptologists that the red paint may have had a youthful connotation to it, and there are several murals that confirm this, such as this one:

 -

You don't see it in this repro, but the original image of this mural is similar to these scenes:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3tPMmmmHr-I/TqI-FCSLkhI/AAAAAAAACKg/-pxuIACDy5w/s640/ancient-egyptian-circumcision.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Akmanthor.jpg

in the sense that the two figures who are doing the shooting are depicted lighter skinned (reddish), while the instructing figures behind them are depicted darker skinned (brown proper).

We discussed this before with Wally in several past threads on Egyptian color symbolism. I believe the lighter color on males is symbolic of them having not entered manhood yet. In a lot of African cultures boys are not recognized as men until they are initiated into manhood, usually by circumcision. Note that in one of the pictures are two boys colored yellow like females who are being circumcised by dark 'official' men.

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
LOL I'm sure if these lineages were 'Near Eastern' or even European, we would not only know which specific lineages these were but we would NEVER heard the end of these findings.

Well, whatever continental origin one believes this lineage has, it is another slap in the face of those who hold that the Ancient Egyptians are identical to the moderns.

Nekht Ankh

 -

 -

LOL Indeed. Note the "negroid" traits of nose etc.
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglo_PrimeIdiot:

The sallow or light hue of ancient egyptian females was not symbolic, but represents their real skin hue. Eye-witness descriptions of such pigmentation of living ancient egyptians is found preserved in various papyrus -

quote:
Snachomenus, aged about 20, of middle size, sallow complexion, round faced and straight nosed
This is from an ancient papyrus translated by Dr. Young, found in Morton (1846). There are many more examples.

Game over Afronuts...

So if the light hue of women was not symbolic, then what are we to make of the chocolate dark hue of the men? Please don't give that pigsh*t about 'tans' again. [Embarrassed]

Also, can you provide us the papyrus text you cite in its original Mdu-Neter text as opposed to a translated version?

You'll have to forgive me that I don't trust anything you translate not only because you're a dishonest troll but I find many Egyptian texts tend to be mistranslated such as for example the common mistranslation of the word hedj with metal determinative to being 'white' as opposed to 'shiny'.

Game's been over for YOU Euronuts. [Smile]

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:
You're far from the only one who has observed this double standard. The orthodoxy celebrates the Nubians as the "Black Pharaohs" all the time, but once you suggest that the Egyptians themselves may have also qualified for the "black" adjective they distract you with this whole "modern racial categories didn't exist back then". I'm all for giving the Nubian civilization more attention, but if Egyptologists want to advertise the Nubians' race, they can't play the anti-racialist with the Egyptians.

Agree.
What's new? Typical Euronut double-think. Racialize Nubians but not Egyptians, even though both were ethnically related. LOL

quote:
Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:
BTW, if Egyptian color schemes for men were really symbolic as implied by the thesis author, I bet that a lot of Egyptians, especially those in Upper Egypt, weren't that much lighter than Nubians.

If you ask me, the Ancient Egyptians weren't pigmented to the max either, like some Nubian groups would have been. If you look at early holocenic cave paintings, such as the cave of swimmers, the people are painted (mostly) brown skinned, I believe more highly pigmented figures are also represented. I wouldn't say symbolic coloration extended that far back in time. Slightly lighter skin color should be expected, given their latitude.
I agree. Even in adjacent areas of North Africa like Libya and Tunisia where indigenous people with minimal foreign ancestry still live, they have light brown-- hazel or mocha like complexions.
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Ase
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quote:
Originally posted by Narmerthoth:
^ After reviewing the thesis, it sounds exactly like something Oshun would propose. A
She proposes the start of Afrocentric studies didn't began until Molefi Kete Asante in the 60s.

 -

After completing the thesis and all it's inaccuracies, misinterpreted information, and false assumptions, all I can say is;
It's a damn shame how susceptible Negro African women are to Albino indoctrination techniques.

Ya just tell Tyrone to stay out of jail kay? Not to hate on black men but Im sick of your misogynistic sh!t like everything wrong with the black community is all the black female's fault. Go cry in a corner seriously...
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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo_PrimeIdiot:

The sallow or light hue of ancient egyptian females was not symbolic, but represents their real skin hue. Eye-witness descriptions of such pigmentation of living ancient egyptians is found preserved in various papyrus -

quote:
Snachomenus, aged about 20, of middle size, sallow complexion, round faced and straight nosed
This is from an ancient papyrus translated by Dr. Young, found in Morton (1846). There are many more examples.

Game over Afronuts...

So if the light hue of women was not symbolic, then what are we to make of the chocolate dark hue of the men? Please don't give that pigsh*t about 'tans' again. [Embarrassed]

Also, can you provide us the papyrus text you cite in its original Mdu-Neter text as opposed to a translated version?

You'll have to forgive me that I don't trust anything you translate not only because you're a dishonest troll but I find many Egyptian texts tend to be mistranslated such as for example the common mistranslation of the word hedj with metal determinative to being 'white' as opposed to 'shiny'.

Game's been over for YOU Euronuts. [Smile]

He is referring to a late dynastic, probably more like post dynastic text. I forgot its exact content, but it mentions several Upper Egyptians, and their appearances. I believe one or more of them is described as (dark?)brown, and the rest honey complexioned. I believe it, or some other post dynastic text also contrasts post dynastic Egyptians with Meroitic Nubians, who are described as ''real blacks'' (notice an early form of the 'true negro' stereotype is being used here).

The text makes a skin color distinction between post dynastic Southern Egyptians (and therefore also Northern Sudanese) vs post dynastic Kushites. Nothing new.

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Ase
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:

Sennefer and Hatshepsut-Meryetre, 18th Dynsaty

 -
 -
lioness productions

yea but isnt this allso Hatshepsut?

 -

If so why the colors different if its supposed to represent how she literally look?

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Indeed. Note the "negroid" traits of nose etc.

 -  -

_______________________________^^^ These two photos, remarkably, are either the same reconstruction at a different angle or there is an error.
Whatever the case may be, each of the two photos of what is supposedly the same sculpture give a different impression as to what you call "negroid traits"

source:
http://books.google.com/books?id=NKWm9Q0vbT4C&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=

____________________________________________________________

the other brother:
 -

________________________________________________________


quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
We discussed this before with Wally in several past threads on Egyptian color symbolism.

Wally's thread on color symbolism was brief, simplistic and the information racially slanted. That is why I had to make an unbiased and more extensive thread on the subject:

Color Symbolism in African Culture.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=007334

^^^ Egypt also covered here

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

I believe the lighter color on males is symbolic of them having not entered manhood yet. In a lot of African cultures boys are not recognized as men until they are initiated into manhood, usually by circumcision. Note that in one of the pictures are two boys colored yellow like females who are being circumcised by dark 'official' men.

complete speculation
how about some more typical AE art showing young boys as opposed to that oddball circumcision scene?

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

So if the light hue of women was not symbolic, then what are we to make of the chocolate dark hue of the men?

Coffins of
Khnum-Nakht and Nekht-Ankh
 -
____________________________________________________^^^^this skin tone is more orangish beige than chocolate


 -
^^^^^ well how about Sennefer? Sennefer has the same chocolate complexion that many Africans, Palestinians, Indians, Peruvians, Southern Europeans, Turks etc, etc have. So it doesn't prove something

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Oshun:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:

Sennefer and Hatshepsut-Meryetre, 18th Dynsaty

^^^WRONG: CORRECTION

Sennefer and Meryt, 18th Dynsaty

^^^^ CORRECT.

MYRT and Hatshepsut-Meryetre are two different people

 -
lioness productions

yea but isnt this allso Hatshepsut?

 -

If so why the colors different if its supposed to represent how she literally look?

UPDATE; see my correction about this here:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=007398

the sculpture and painting are of Sennefer and his wife Myrt

Myrt is not "Hatshepsut-Meryetre"

what happened in my opinion is that the Louvre museum has it wrong, read about it in the above link

three different people:

1) Myrt

2) Queen Hatshepsut

3) Queen Hatshepsut-Meryetre

Sennefer was a Mayor not a king and he was not married to either of these two Queens.
He was married to Myrt

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malibudusul
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The colors, white, yellow, red, etc. .. are symbolic
the Egyptians were black and brown.

Diop was tested for melanin therein
so therefore it has been scientifically proven

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malibudusul
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Two examples of statues
represent the Egyptians as they were

 -

 -

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Thule
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quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:
^ Funny, I entered Snachomenus into Google and didn't get any results whatsoever.

It appears I may have spelt it incorrect. Here is the extract below (Morton, 1844):

 -

This also appears in Pettigrew (1834), Wilkinson (1837) and Morton (1848).

Dr. Young was the translator (Hieroglyph. Literature, p. 70).

Note what I have underlined in red.

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Thule
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http://www.amazon.co.uk/Non-Literary-Papyri-Private-Documents-Classical/dp/0674992946

Non-Literary Papyri: v. 1: Private Documents (Loeb Classical Library)

This contains earlier papyrus describing ancient egyptians as ''sallow'' or light skinned.

I would also suggest purchasing Loeb's translation of Manetho's 'Aegyptiaca', as it contains a description of Nitocris as flava rubris genis, ''blonde with rosy cheeks''.

Note the following from my essay:

quote:
The earliest Great Royal Wife we have an extant literary physical description of is Nitocris (Dynasty VI, 22nd century BC). Although the exact historicity of Nitocris is disputed, many egyptologists since the 19th century have maintained she was related to Queen Neith, the wife of Pepi II or Pepi himself, although other theories have been proposed as shall be shown just below (Wilkinson, Herodotus, vol. ii. p. 165, note 2; Grimal, A History of Ancient Egypt, 1992, p. 89 cf. Newberry, 1943, p. 53). The extant physical description of Nitocris comes from Manetho's Aegyptiaca (''History of Egypt'') written in the 3rd century BC, but draws on a far older pre-Herodotean tradition (Loyd, Commentary on Herodotus, 1988, p. 14; Gera, Warrior Women, 1997, p. 101). Nitocris appears mentioned in Herodotus (ii. 100) and Eratosthenes (FGrH 610 F1) but is first physically described in a fragment by Manetho (FGrH 609 F2, f3a-b). Since Manetho's Aegyptiaca has not come down to us complete, we only have preserved fragments from later chroniclers (such as Eusebius and Syncellus). In George Syncellus' Chronography quoting Eusebius (FGrH 609 F 3) for example it is said -

''Nitocris, the noblest and loveliest of woman of her time, of fair complexion,
the builder of the third pyramid, reigned for 12 years.''

We find in the original Greek here that Nitocris was xanthe, fair or blonde, which usually is attributed to the hair, not skin complexion (see Myres, Who were the Greeks?, 1930, p. 194). However another variant fragment found in Eusebius' Chronicon (xlvii) describes Nitocris as flava rubris genis, ''blonde with rosy cheeks'' (Waddell, Manetho, 1940, p. 57). According to Wilkinson: ''Nitocris was a woman of great beauty; and, if we may believe Manetho, she had a fair complexion and flaxen hair'' (1837, p. 91). Manetho's fragments assert that it was Nitocris who ordered the construction of the third pyramid (the pyramid of Menkaure). Scholars have long noted the connection between Nitocris and Rhodopis, the ''rosy-cheeked'' woman, who in Greek and Roman tradition is also described as having been a Queen of Egypt and architect of the third pyramid (Lloyd 1988, pp. 14-15, Tyldesley, Daughters of Isis, 1994, pp. 217-218). Thus we have a strong literary tradition of a blonde and fair skinned or ''rosy-cheeked'' Queen of Egypt (Great Royal Wife) during the Old Kingdom period who is associated with the construction of a pyramid.

In his book The Sky-Religion in Egypt (1938, pp. 42-43) the Egyptologist Gerald Avery Wainright identifies Nitocris (Rhodopis) as Hetepheres II, a daughter of Khufu (Cheops). Based on an ancient wall painting in the Tomb of Meresankh (G7350) which dates to the Old Kingdom, 26th century BC (Dynasty IV) we know Hetepheres II was blonde haired (cf. Illustr. London News, 9 July, 1927, p. 69

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=007642

I would like to know how Negroids ('Blacks') can be ''blonde with rosy cheeks''... lol

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Swenet
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You always focus on individuals, e.g., Heteperes, Rahotep, wife of Nitocris, ''Snachomenus'' (lol) to talk about light skinned Egyptians. A single ancient Egyptian wall mural outweighs all light skinned individuals you can ever dream of conjuring up:

http://www.osirisnet.net/tombes/el_bersheh/djehoutyhotep/photo/djehoutyhotep_21.jpg

This is what tanned whites looked like in the ancient world:

 -  -
 -  -
 -

.........nothing like Egyptians who are pictured in those same murals.

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Thule
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 -

Princess Nefertiabet (26th century BC stele)

Compare to Negroid ('Black'):

 -

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Swenet
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You're only proving my point. You're relying on light skinned individuals, as well as the fact that you use yellow skinned female depictions.

Post images of early dynastic Ancient Egyptian gatherings, where an entire group of both males and females look like this:

 -
 -

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Thule
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
[QB] You always focus on individuals, e.g., Heteperes, Rahotep, wife of Nitocris, ''Snachomenus'' (lol) to talk about light skinned Egyptians. A single ancient Egyptian wall mural outweighs all light skinned individuals you can ever dream of conjuring up:

http://www.osirisnet.net/tombes/el_bersheh/djehoutyhotep/photo/djehoutyhotep_21.jpg

This is what tanned whites looked like in the ancient world:

 -

That is the ''lily prince'. The vast majority of Minoans are actually painted dark (reddish-brown). The royalty and upper classes are though light - the same as in ancient egypt. There is a difference in pigmentation of the classes.

The reason the Minoan, Indus Valley, Greek, Roman, Egyptian and Mesopotamian royals were depigmentated and fair haired is because they were Nordids. Also note most of these were the same individuals:

1.
Sumerian: Sargon
Egyptian: Seth
Minoan: Sarpedon

2.
Sumerian: Rimush
Egyptian: Ra
Minoan: Rhadamanthus

3.
Sumerian: Manishtushu
Egyptian: Menes
Minoan: Minos

4.
Sumerian: Naram-Sin
Egyptian: Narmer
Minoan: Naram

quote:
The Aryan (Nordic) racial traits of these proto-dynastic rulers have all ready been outlined from various sources, but Waddell shows a head bust of Manishtushu (Menes, Manium, Minos) which once had inlaid bright blue eyes made from lapis-luzili, ''to represent the blue eyes of the Aryan race'' (1930, pp. 39-40, plate. 1).
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=007642

Note that the bust of Menes (Manishtushu) has blue eyes:

 -

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beyoku
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http://www.pnas.org/content/86/6/1939.full.pdf


^ DNA Test in question.

I am going on memory here but I think the specific lineages were not named because this was a quite early study. I dont know of the nomenclature/ naming scheme of the lineages (L0-L3 + M and N)was quite put together yet.

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
You're only proving my point. You're relying on light skinned individuals, as well as the fact that you use yellow skinned female depictions.

Post images of early dynastic Ancient Egyptian gatherings, where an entire group of both males and females look like this:

 -
 -


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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by beyoku:
http://www.pnas.org/content/86/6/1939.full.pdf


^ DNA Test in question.

I am going on memory here but I think the specific lineages were not named because this was a quite early study. I dont know of the nomenclature/ naming scheme of the lineages (L0-L3 + M and N)was quite put together yet.

They mention Nekht Ankh and some of the results, but its not the same paper that was referenced by Mwanika Eva.
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Thule
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It doesn't appear you have studied the class proportion. In ancient Greece and Rome, the upper classes were composed of a tiny elite, not more than 7% of the population (Day, 2001).

In ancient Egypt, Dart (1937, 1962) estimated that the ''pharonic type'' (royals, nobles) was no more than 10% of the population. That is why only light skinned individuals appear, because they are outnumbered by the darker skinned bulk middle-lower classes.

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Swenet
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^It has been argued numerous times that Ancient Egyptian art is not representative, because it tended to focus on the elite rather than commoners, so your shitty excuse makes no sense.

Now, where are these images of whites in congregation, you dumb idiot. Show them like how they appear below, but instead of brown skinned, show groups of white male and female nobles attending ceremonies:

 -

 -

In other words, show authentic non-late period images that have ancient Egyptian male and female nobles colored like this:

 -

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Ish Geber
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^^And so there are thousands upon thousands of these images. In Egyptian tombs.

quote:
Originally posted by Anglo_F/Lying hog:
The sallow or light hue of ancient egyptian females was not symbolic, but represents their real skin hue. Eye-witness descriptions of such pigmentation of living ancient egyptians is found preserved in various papyrus -

quote:
Snachomenus, aged about 20, of middle size, sallow complexion, round faced and straight nosed
This is from an ancient papyrus translated by Dr. Young, found in Morton (1846). There are many more examples.

Game over Afronuts...

First off all, there was NO CREDIBLE translation during that time.

As they did not understand NETHER KHMNETER. And they in most cases still don't understand it! DORKY F/LYING HOG!!!

Second, color symbolism was real as it gets.

Third, light skin complexion did exits.


 -


 -


 -


 -





Overall, these studies can be interpreted as suggesting that the Egyptian Nile Valley's indigenous population had a craniofacial pattern that evolved and emerged in northeastern Africa, whose geography in relationship to climate largely explains the variation.


semi-tropical/arid tropic zones, show clear limb proportion characteristics of tropically adapted people, and MORE closely resemble other tropically adapted Africans on the continent, than Europeans or Middle Easterners. (Raxter and Ruff 2008, Zakrewski 2003, 2007; Holliday et al, 2003, Kemp, 2005) 3) Undermining claims of cold-climate or skin color primacy for civilization, the great ancient Nile Valley civilization arose from the 'darker' more tropical south, NOT the cold climate or cool climate Mediterranean, Europe or Asia. (Clark, 1982; Shaw 1976, 2003; Bard, 2004; Vogel, 1997; Kemp 2005)


African peoples are the most diverse in the world whether analyzed by DNA or skeletal or cranial methods. The peoples of the Nile Valley vary but they are still related. The people most related ethnically to the ancient Egyptians are other Africans like Nubians not cold-climate/light skinned Europeans or Asiatics. (Keita 1996; Rethelford, 2001; Bianchi 2004, Yurco 1989; Godde 2009)



However, still parts Egypt has cold nightly temperatures and cold winters. In some parts it can get very cold during the night and early morning, like °F 37.4 sometimes lower. As the temperature rises slow during 6-am and 10-am to °F 60.8. Then rises quickly up to °F 77 and higher to during the middle of the day, till it reacher its hot peak. In the afternoon is lowers again by 22:00 PM it has dropped dramatically, already. Hence semi-Tropical zone.

This brought rise to the particular gene-, phenotype we see in Northeast Africans. And we know diet too effects the body.




Angela M. Hancock et al.


Since human populations occupy a wide variety of environments with respect to climate, selective pressures are expected to vary greatly across geographic regions. Adaptations to spatially varying selective pressures are evident in the geographic distributions of many traits. For example, significant correlations exist between body mass and temperature [13]–[14], consistent with Bergmann's and Allen's Rules. Furthermore, there is evidence that human metabolism has been shaped by adaptations to cold stress from studies of arctic populations, which exhibit elevated basal metabolic rates compared to non-indigenous populations [15].

Like body mass, variation in skin pigmentation is strongly correlated with climate and geography, i.e. distance from the equator and solar radiation [16]–[17]. Lighter pigmentation is likely to be adaptive in high latitudes, in part, because UV light is needed to penetrate the skin to produce vitamin D [16]–[19], which is necessary for calcium absorption and bone growth.


 -


(A) Maps show the distributions of summer and winter climate variables: maximum summer temperature, minimum winter temperature and solar radiation, precipitation rate and relative humidity in the summer and winter. (B) A heatmap shows the absolute values of Spearman rank correlation coefficients between pairs of climate variables.


 -


Table 3. SNPs with the strongest signals of selection among those associated with phenotypic traits in GWAS.



Stratigraphy and sedimentology at BirSahara, Egypt: Environments, climate change and the Middle Paleolithic


http://sspa.boisestate.edu/anthropology/files/2010/06/stratigraphy-and-sedimentology-at-bir-sahara.pdf


quote:
The most thorough studies on the prehistory of North Africa come from the land included within the present borders of Egypt and northern Sudan. The Nile river and the Sahara desert have alternatively affected each other on both cultural and environmental levels and Eastern Saharan populations have acted as intermediaries between central Saharans and Nilotic peoples in both east–west and west–east directions. The Eastern Sahara is often referred to as the Western Desert, as it is located west of the Nile river. However, the Eastern Sahara proper extends east of the Nile river, as well. This article regards the most relevant events of past human populations in the area. Main topics include: the spread of early anatomically modern humans (e.g., at Kurkur Oasis, Bir Tarfawi, BirSahara); the reoccupation of the Sahara after 10 000 years ago; the earliest herders (e.g., at Bir Kiseiba and Nabta Playa); the earliest production and the spread of pottery (e.g., at Nabta Playa, Bir Kiseiba, Gilf Kebir, Great Sand Sea); caprine herding (e.g., at Sodmein Cave, Dakhleh Oasis, Nabta Playa); the origins of farming (e.g., at Farafra Oasis); and the development of sedentism (e.g., at Dakhleh Oasis, Nabta Playa).

AFRICA, NORTH Sahara, Eastern, Elena A.A. Garcea et al.


Lakeside Cemeteries in the Sahara: 5000 Years of Holocene Population and Environmental Change


Paul C. Sereno et al.


http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchObjectAttachment.action?uri=info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0002995&representation=PDF


 -

 -

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the lioness,
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stop the BS more ancient Egyptian males are portrayed as reddish brown than they are "sallow"

 -  -


quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
The skin color thing was already dealt with. As for the fisher man, his skin color may be similar, but the concave facial profile of that fisherman is typically European, and has nothing to do with how Egyptians depicted themselves, whatsoever.

.
 -  -

also LOL at Sweetnet's amnesia
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglo_L/Flying caucasus hog:
It doesn't appear you have studied the class proportion. In ancient Greece and Rome, the upper classes were composed of a tiny elite, not more than 7% of the population (Day, 2001).

In ancient Egypt, Dart (1937, 1962) estimated that the ''pharonic type'' (royals, nobles) was no more than 10% of the population. That is why only light skinned individuals appear, because they are outnumbered by the darker skinned bulk middle-lower classes.

The burial found in the South. Of "the reality of the tropical adapted, maxillary, alveolar prognathic African with overbite." Packed with melanin specimen of African (negroid) origin. He, who died of a typical African decease, like the rest of his family members who suffered from this illness, called sickle cel!


 -


 -


 -


Here we can see him depicted on his throne. On which he sat his ROYAL BLACK BEHIND!


 -


 -


 -

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Thule
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Troll Patrol, that is not light (white) skin, but intermediate including light and medium brown as appears on the Luschan Scale.

Light (white) skin is 1-14. You are posting individuals from 15 - 18 (light brown) to medium brown (20's).

The fact you think brown skin is 'light' shows how little diversity is in your race.

The full pigmentation sprectrum (pale white) to dark brown is only found in Caucasoids.

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Thule
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''The lightest pigmentation recorded in that of the Rifians, the most European looking Berbers. They have a 65 percent incidence of pinkish-white unexposed skin color. [...] This goes as high as 86 percent in some tribes.'' (Coon, 1965)

 -

Berber child

Note: Zaharan claims the above child is ''Black'' and ''tropical african diversity'' [sic]... Yet as everyone knows, the only pale whites in North Africa are Caucasoids like this girl above. There is nothing ''Black'' about these people...

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Ish Geber
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 -


 -

 -

 -



Funny IS HOW THE TOMBS OF ANCIENT EGYPTIAN KINGS and QUEENS WAS PRIMARILY AT THE >>>SOUTH<<<.


Can I remind you people that this lying Anglo hog, is a person who actually never has been to Africa/ Egypt.


Caption: Tomb KV19 Egyptian Prince Montu-hir-Khopshef son Ramasses  -


 -




 -


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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist:
quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:
^ Funny, I entered Snachomenus into Google and didn't get any results whatsoever.

It appears I may have spelt it incorrect. Here is the extract below (Morton, 1844):

 -

This also appears in Pettigrew (1834), Wilkinson (1837) and Morton (1848).

Dr. Young was the translator (Hieroglyph. Literature, p. 70).

Note what I have underlined in red.

.

Nobody's ever heard of "Pasammonthes". You only see this name mentioned in
Transactions of the American Philosophical Society: held at ..., Volume 9 1843
^^^ this is the source of the above text PAGE 121

http://books.google.com/books?id=J3hFAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA121&lpg=PA121&dq

let's read the complete first sentence of the above which starts at the bottom of PAGE 120:

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>>> well there you have it, Greek period, as also shown with names like Ps_____________
This is a foreign rule period it doesn't count
But wait a minite wern't the Greeks___________?


.


Read this outdated 1843 material, It's pretty interesting with the Eurocentric detail on Egyptian ethnography, starts on PAGE 93

http://books.google.com/books?id=J3hFAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA121&lpg=PA121&dq=psammonthes&

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglo_junk yard brain:
Troll Patrol, that is not light (white) skin, but intermediate including light and medium brown as appears on the Luschan Scale.

Light (white) skin is 1-14. You are posting individuals from 15 - 18 (light brown) to medium brown (20's).

The fact you think brown skin is 'light' shows how little diversity is in your race.

The full pigmentation sprectrum (pale white) to dark brown is only found in Caucasoids.

Junk yard brain, that is light skin complexion. IN THE AFRICAN CONTEXT!!!!!!!

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The Egyptians above are intermediate.


This is indigenous Southern Egyptian little girl is dark skinned,
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These Egyptians from the North are light skinned,
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cont...





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Got it, Ok!

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

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African Population SNP admixture  -

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Thule
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quote:
The full pigmentation sprectrum (pale white) to dark brown is only found in Caucasoids.
Note how only Caucasoids (Western Eurasians) have the full spectrum of pigmentation (pale white in northern Europe to dark brown in pockets of southern India):

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''Caucasoids: Skin is fair in most of Europe, usually darker in Western Asia and India, and becoming almost black in Bengal and southern India.'' (Coon, 1965)

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

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African Population SNP admixture  -

HAS EVERY INDIVIDUAL BEEN TESTED? I DON'T THINK SO! IF SO. PROOOOOVE IT!!!LOOOL

Endogamy and xenophobia play major contributions in the South. Something dorky white idiots like you don't understand.


Try to understand what you speak of, before you propose your crappy theory. So explain to me, what is MIDDLE EASTERN????


Fact is, ancient Egyptians show to cluster closets with people from the South, who came from the Sahara/ Sahel. Arabs came from where?lol

Let me repeat it again for you, dumbo!


Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions


Sonia R. Zakrzewski*


American Journal of Physical Anthropology
Volume 121, Issue 3, pages 219–229, July 2003


Stature and the pattern of body proportions were investigated in a series of six time-successive Egyptian populations in order to investigate the biological effects on human growth of the development and intensification of agriculture, and the formation of state-level social organization. Univariate analyses of variance were performed to assess differences between the sexes and among various time periods. Significant differences were found both in stature and in raw long bone length measurements between the early semipastoral population and the later intensive agricultural population. The size differences were greater in males than in females. This disparity is suggested to be due to greater male response to poor nutrition in the earlier populations, and with the increasing development of social hierarchy, males were being provisioned preferentially over females. Little change in body shape was found through time, suggesting that all body segments were varying in size in response to environmental and social conditions. The change found in body plan is suggested to be the result of the later groups having a more tropical (Nilotic) form than the preceding populations. Am J Phys Anthropol, 2003.


AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 132:501–509 (2007)

Population Continuity or Population Change: Formation of the Ancient Egyptian State

Sonia R. Zakrzewski*

Department of Archaeology, University of Southampton, Highfield, Southampton SO17 1BF, UK


The origins of the ancient Egyptian state and its formation have received much attention through analysis of mortuary contexts, skeletal material, and trade. Genetic diversity was analyzed by studying craniometric variation within a series of six time-successive Egyptian populations in order to investigate the evidence for migration over the period of the development of social hierarchy and the Egyptian state. Craniometric variation, based upon 16 measurements, was assessed through principal components analysis, discriminant function analysis, and Mahalanobis D2 matrix computation. Spatial and temporal relationships were assessed by Mantel and Partial Mantel tests. The results indicate overall population continuity over the Predynastic and early Dynastic, and high levels of genetic heterogeneity, thereby suggesting that state formation occurred as a mainly indigenous process.


Conclusions


The analyses of the crania studied suggest that genetic continuity occurs over the Egyptian Predynastic and EDyn periods. The study also indicates that a relatively high level of genetic differentiation was sustained over this time period. This evidence suggests that the process of state formation itself may have been mainly an indigenous process, but that it may have occurred in association with inmigration to the Abydos region of the Nile Valley. This potential inmigration may have occurred particularly during the EDyn and OK. A possible explanation is that the Egyptian state formed through increasing control of trade and raw materials, or due to military actions, potentially associated with the use of the Nile Valley as a corridor for prolonged small scale movements through the desert environment.

Using Mahalanobis D2 values as a proxy for genetic or phenetic distance, significant genetic distances were found between time period groups and between cemetery groups. No conclusive linear relationship was found from any of the regressions of genetic distance on temporal distance (for the pooled time period groups), genetic distance on temporal distance (controlling for spatial distance), or genetic distance on spatial distance (controlling for time) for the cemetery groups. These results indicate that the biological patterning of the Egyptian population varied across time, but that no simple and consistent temporal or spatial trends could be discerned.


The Badarian is shown to be a genetically homogeneous sample, characterized by short cranial vaults and significant subnasal prognathism. The homogeneity of the Badarian mirrors previous cranial (Stoessiger, 1927; Morant, 1935; Strouhal, 1971; Gaballah et al., 1972) and post- ranial studies (Zakrzewski, 2003). Due to their placement in all sectors of Figure 2, later groups are shown as being more phenotypically heterogeneous. Furthermore, as a result of its long broad vaults and broad faces, the EDyn sample appears morphologically distinct relative to EDyn sample appears morphologically distinct relative to the other temporal groups.

Due to the relatively small sample sizes arising from the fragmentary nature of some of the crania and the lack of skeletal material that cross-cuts all social ranks within each time period, these results must remain provisional and indicative. Further research on recently excavated material, especially from the Delta area, is therefore required in order to further address the issues raised.


http://eprints.soton.ac.uk/12075/1/2007_PopnContinuityChange_AJPA_132pp501-9.pdf

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the lioness,
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