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Author Topic: What is a true "Arab" ?
the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:


[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:
 -
[
Nice trolling LYIN_SS yourlyin_ssassinity is getting worse and worse. Why lie and say I said Arabs must have Afros. Why are you angry that the 14th century linguistic scholar said most Arabs have kinky hair while lank hair is the hair of the slaves.



get my name right you dumb ho

Why would you even post those girls you can't tell if their hair has been straightened or what the nature of it is, stupid?

If you wanted to show pictures of people who had kinky hair then you should have showed people who have kinky hair in it's natural state, truly dumb

One 14th century linguist's opinion defines a people? Try that nonsense in Arabia or Yemen.
You think Muhammad had a fro?

And "most" does not mean all anyway.

And where is the reference to the original Arabic?
I have pursued this in the past - mistranslation of hair types,

And this is not even lank hair you dumb bytch
 -

And this is not even lank hair you dumb bytch

 -


And this is not even lank hair you dumb bytch

 -


your hair nonsense is mistranslated obscure alternative theory just like your "Israel was in Arabia" theory
you are a quack propagandist


The Zanj say that God did not make them black in order to disfigure them; rather it is their environment that made them so. The best evidence of this is that there are black tribes among the Arabs......

We Blacks have conquered the country of the Arabs as far as Mecca and have governed them. We defeated Dhu Nowas (Jewish King of Yemen) and killed all the Himyarite princes, but you, White people, have never conquered our country. Our people, the Zenghs revolted forty times in the Euphrates, driving the inhabitants from their homes and making Oballah a bath of blood.

Al-Jahiz, 8th c


^^^ referring rebellion of the Zanj.
and Ethiopian Invasion of Southern Arabia before Islam
and also describes black tribes AMOUNG the Arabs.
This is a type of 'virtues of blacks' writing by Islamicized people of African descent reacting to racism by ARABS

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:


[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:
 -
[
Nice trolling LYIN_SS yourlyin_ssassinity is getting worse and worse. Why lie and say I said Arabs must have Afros. Why are you angry that the 14th century linguistic scholar said most Arabs have kinky hair while lank hair is the hair of the slaves.



get my name right you dumb ho

Why would you even post those girls you can't tell if their hair has been straightened or what the nature of it is, stupid?

If you wanted to show pictures of people who had kinky hair then you should have showed people who have kinky hair in it's natural state, truly dumb

One 14th century linguist's opinion defines a people? Try that nonsense in Arabia or Yemen.
You think Muhammad had a fro?

And "most" does not mean all anyway.

And where is the reference to the original Arabic?
I have pursued this in the past - mistranslation of hair types,

And this is not even lank hair you dumb bytch
 -


And this is not even lank hair you dumb bytch

 -


your hair nonsense is mistranslated obscure alternative theory just like your "Israel was in Arabia" theory
you are a quack propagandist


The Zanj say that God did not make them black in order to disfigure them; rather it is their environment that made them so. The best evidence of this is that there are black tribes among the Arabs......

We Blacks have conquered the country of the Arabs as far as Mecca and have governed them. We defeated Dhu Nowas (Jewish King of Yemen) and killed all the Himyarite princes, but you, White people, have never conquered our country. Our people, the Zenghs revolted forty times in the Euphrates, driving the inhabitants from their homes and making Oballah a bath of blood.

Al-Jahiz, 8th c


^^^ referring rebellion of the Zanj.
and Ethiopian Invasion of Southern Arabia before Islam
and also describes black tribes AMOUNG the Arabs.
This is a type of 'virtues of blacks' writing by Islamicized people of African descent reacting to racism by ARABS

"Dumb ho", "Dumb bytch"? Wow.

Lying _ssaniness, your increasing testiness and now I will have to say utterly trashy talk is puzzling me - are people here on Egyptsearch giving you a hard time or something.You act like you've been bullied on here.

If you had any common sense and I don't think you do you, you wouldn't have assumed I was posting the girls because of their hair. (

I was just admiring their obvious resemblance to the ancient Sabaean princess you posted.

If that's OK with you. [Big Grin]

Muhammed with a fro? Actually, no most Arabs wore there hair in cornrows or locks silly, just like other black i.e. Sudanic people with KINKY hair. Although it looks as if the more ancient Arabs wore it in some raisin headed style like the Yemeni statues show. [Cool]

Why are you posting what Zanj people said about the Iraqis lol! You do know Arabs occupied Iraq but were'nt Iraqi don't you. Only people on the Eurphrates like the Nabataeans were true Arabs and they of course are called by Jahiz and others "black" with big buttocks. [Big Grin]

I am sorry for your loss. [Cool]

Have to tell you its been discovered most of the blacks revolting in Iraq were in fact black but not Zang - mostly the pure ARabs, like the Bahila and other Azd from the Central Arabian deserts.

That's why Jahiz said the Zanghi said the Arabs belong to the blacks not to the red people i.e. whites!

Like it or not. [Smile]

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dana marniche
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BTW - now is that logical or even common sense to call the observations of the major Arabic linguist and Arabic grammarian of Medieval era and of Syrians visiting Arabia an alternative theory.


Please, you can do better than that.

He was just explaining the people in his times in saying that Arabs were mainly black "akhdar" with kinky hair and their slaves weren't.

it is not his fault that people 1000 years later would come to call the descendants of Turks, Syrians and Persians in Syria and Arabia Arabs, is it.


I should think not!

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HidayaAkade
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Bump

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"Kiaga Nata"

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HidayaAkade
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"Kiaga Nata"

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Ish Geber
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Once more we have witnessed the destruction of the prejudice notations by lioness. Now, go and make a new "pseudo account" acting as a third person.
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Djehuti
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From Arabia we have these descriptions from early Western explorers:

The inhabitants of this part of Arabia nearly all belong to the race of Himyar. Their complexion is almost as black as the Abyssinians,”-- Baron von Maltzan, 'Geography of Southern Arabia' (1872)

[the Hamida are] small chocolate colored beings, stunted and thin… with mops of bushy hair… straggling beards , vicious eyes, frowning brows … armed with scabbards slung over the shoulder and Janbiyyah daggers…” a people “of the great Hejazi tribe that has kept his blood pure for the last 13 centuries…”-- Sir Richard Burton (1879)

The people of Dhufar are of the Qahtan tribe, the sons of Joktan mentioned in Genesis: they are of Hamitic or African rather than Arab types…”--Arnold Wilson, The Geographical Journal (1927)

the most prosperous tribe of all the Hamitic group, possessing innumerable camels, herds of cattle and the richest frankincense country. They resemble the Bisharin tribe of the Nubian desert. Men of big bone , they have long faces long narrow jaws, noses of a refined shape long curly hair and brown skin.”--Richmond Palmer (1929)

Mahra is the Arab name for the Bedouin tribes who are different in appearance to other Arabs, having almost beardless faces, fuzzy hair and dark pigmentation – such as the Qarra, Mahra and Harasis… Also on “…the Qarra, Mahra and Harasis with parts of other tribes. The language is derived from the language of the Sabaeans, Minaeans and Himyarites. The Mahra with other Southern Arabian peoples seem aligned to the Hamitic race of north-east Africa… The Mahra are believed to be descended from the Habasha, who colonized Ethiopia in the first millennium BC”-- David Phillips, Peoples on the Move (2001)

European observers have made much of their physical resemblance to Somalis and Ethiopians, but there is no historical evidence of any connections.”-- E. Peterson, 'Oman’s Diverse Society: Southern Oman'

And scholars have long noted:

Mr. Baldwin draws a marked distinction between the modern Mahomedan Semitic population of Arabia and their great Cushite, Hamite, or Ethiopian predecessors. The former, he says, ‘are comparatively modern in Arabia,’ they have ‘appropriated the reputation of the old race,’ and have unduly occupied the chief attention of modern scholars.”-- Charles Hardwick (1872)

Among ‘these Negroid features which may be counted normal in Arabs are the full,rather everted lips, shortness and width of nose, certain blanks in the bearded areas of the face between the lower lip and chin and on the cheeks; large, luscious,gazelle-like eyes, a dark brown complexion, and a tendency for the hair to grow in ringlets. Often the features of the more Negroid Arabs are derivatives of Dravidian India rather than inheritances of Hamitic Africa. Although the Arab of today is sharply differentiated from the Negro of Africa, yet there must have been a time when both were represented by a single ancestral stock; in no other way can the prevalence of certain Negroid features be accounted for in the natives of Arabia.”-- Henry Field, Anthropology Memoirs Volume 4 (1902)

“The Cushites. the first inhabitants of Arabia, arc known in the national traditions by the name of Adites, from their progenitor, who is called Ad, the grandson of Ham.”-- F. Lenormant (1922)

There is a considerable mass of evidence to show that there was a very close resemblance between the proto-Egyptians and the Arabs before either became intermingled with Armenoid racial elements.”-- Elliot Smith, he Ancient Egyptians and the Origins of Civilization (1923)

In Arabia the first inhabitants were probably a dark-skinned, shortish population intermediate, between the African Hamites and the Dravidians of India and forming a single African Asiatic belt with these.”-- Handbook of the Territories which form the Theater of Operations of the Iraq Petroleum Company Limited and its Associated Companies

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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If there are so many Africans types native to Arabia where are their genetic signatures??
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dana marniche
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I don't understand such complicated questions Jari, whatever do you mean? Did you mean what are their genetic signatures?
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-Just Call Me Jari-
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Yeah, sorry Im not saavy when it comes to Genetics. Anyway I ask simply because many Genetic studies have Modern Arabs with Signatures that are distant from Africans even in Ethiopia etc. So while I do think the original Arabs were black based on the amount of evidence, what were they Genetically?? J1??
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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Yeah, sorry Im not saavy when it comes to Genetics. Anyway I ask simply because many Genetic studies have Modern Arabs with Signatures that are distant from Africans even in Ethiopia etc. So while I do think the original Arabs were black based on the amount of evidence, what were they Genetically?? J1??

No. J1 is from the Levant like many modern Arabs. Only God knows if genetics have studied the Qahtan people who still look like the Africans they are. I doubt it.

Like the rest of Arabia most Yemenites are also only a mixture of different non-Arab populations with the Arab Qahtan/Falaj tribes.

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Djehuti
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^ Actually J1 has its highest frequency in Yemen among those very black African-looking people you speak of-- at up to 80%.

 -

^^ Outside of Yemen, it's highest frequency is in Sudan, and it's presence in both Sudan and the Horn are pre-Islamic and ancient whereas its presence in North Africa and the Maghreb is largely associated with Islamic expansion.

J2 is more associated with northern 'Adnani' Arabs or Mesopotamians since its highest frequency occurs there up to 25%

 -

Then there's original J* which also has a high frequency in both southern Arabia and the Horn with its highest frequency in Soqotra Island.

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Actually J1 has its highest frequency in Yemen among those very black African-looking people you speak of-- at up to 80%.

 -

^^ Outside of Yemen, it's highest frequency is in Sudan, and it's presence in both Sudan and the Horn are pre-Islamic and ancient whereas its presence in North Africa and the Maghreb is largely associated with Islamic expansion.

J2 is more associated with northern 'Adnani' Arabs or Mesopotamians since its highest frequency occurs there up to 25%

 -

Then there's original J* which also has a high frequency in both southern Arabia and the Horn with its highest frequency in Soqotra Island.

Wow!

Djehuti this is actually news to me. Thanks for the update! Last time i heard about J1 must have been from one of the neo-Nazis ion this or on the Dienekes site. I had no idea. Well I guess the advancement of genetics has proven what has been said all along by colonialists and forensics, and will continue to do so.

And this is really powerful evidence.


On the other hand isn't it supposed to have originated in JT which people are saying is derived from Anatolia?

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mena7
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Base on Assyrian artifacts that show dreadlock Arabs on camel fighting the Assyrian army I think the original Arab of Arabia were a black and brown people of different phenotype from Kush, Abyssinia, Egypt and Canaan. The fact that the Arab language is semitic close to the Canaanite, Aramaic, Hebrew, Abyssinian languages is the proof they have a black origin.

During the renaissance era and during the Ottoman Turkish domination of West Asia the black Arab started to mixed with white Turkish slave and immigrant to West Asia turning themselves into mulato. The Arab today in West Asia are a fixed mulato people. The North African also.

The thing I didn't like about muslim Arab civilization was the interdiction of muslim to make portrait of themselves. the Arabic coins have no portrait of their black and mulato rulers.

According to the Sokoto Empire Sultan Mohammed Bello and ex Libyan President Mouammar Kaddafi part of the Yoruba people of Nigeria are immigrant from the Arabian peninsula. That's mean some of the Arab tribes were Yoruba.

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mena

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by mena7:
Base on Assyrian artifacts that show dreadlock Arabs on camel fighting the Assyrian army I think the original Arab of Arabia were a black and brown people of different phenotype from Kush, Abyssinia, Egypt and Canaan. The fact that the Arab language is semitic close to the Canaanite, Aramaic, Hebrew, Abyssinian languages is the proof they have a black origin.

During the renaissance era and during the Ottoman Turkish domination of West Asia the black Arab started to mixed with white Turkish slave and immigrant to West Asia turning themselves into mulato. The Arab today in West Asia are a fixed mulato people. The North African also.

The thing I didn't like about muslim Arab civilization was the interdiction of muslim to make portrait of themselves. the Arabic coins have no portrait of their black and mulato rulers.

According to the Sokoto Empire Sultan Mohammed Bello and ex Libyan President Mouammar Kaddafi part of the Yoruba people of Nigeria are immigrant from the Arabian peninsula. That's mean some of the Arab tribes were Yoruba.

Those were mainly the Central Asians and other groups who made portraits of themselves, but that had nothing to do with Islam or Arabians.
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

Wow!

Djehuti this is actually news to me. Thanks for the update! Last time i heard about J1 must have been from one of the neo-Nazis on this or on the Dienekes site. I had no idea. Well I guess the advancement of genetics has proven what has been said all along by colonialists and forensics, and will continue to do so.

And this is really powerful evidence.

Yeah, one thing I forgot to add is that while most experts presume an Asian origin for hg J, there are some individuals who think it may have an African origin due to the high frequency of J* (underived) in Soqotra Island as well as in the Horn of Africa. Explorer believes it may have arisen in Africa as well

quote:
On the other hand isn't it supposed to have originated in JT which people are saying is derived from Anatolia?
I think you are confused with J1 which is believed to have arisen in the Anatolia Mesopotamian area which is where it has it's highest frequency and diversity. Its sibling J1 likely originated in Arabia where its highest frequency and diversity is in Yemen. And the parent of both J1 and J2, J* has its highest frequency in Soqotra Island, though I'm unsure of its diversity. It's high frequency on the island may be the result of founder effect via the original Mahra settlers, though J* is also found in Yemen and in Somalia and Eritrea.

J's parent is IJ which is rare and from what I've read a few years ago was found among a few individuals in Iran. Though IJ's sibling hg K is found in a wide range from Australia and Oceania in the Pacific all throughout Eurasia with some frequency in North and East Africa. Their parent IJK is yet to be discovered though IJK's ancestor F is predominantly Eurasian, underived F* is found so far in Iran and then in Sudan. There are some who postulate F arose in Africa first before it spread to Asia.

The point is Southwest Asia or as Tukuler calls it 'extra Africa' or 'far northeast Africa' was a gateway for populations expanding out of or going back into Africa. Which is why I question the divide between 'Africa' and 'Eurasian' or non-African especially when it comes to these very ancient lineages found in Southwest Asia.

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HidayaAkade
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"Kiaga Nata"

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TRUTH HITMAN
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -
Illustration showing Mohammed (on the right) preaching his final sermon to his earliest converts, on Mount Ararat near Mecca; astronomical treatise The Remaining Signs of Past Centuries by the Persian scholar al-Biruni; Manuscrits Arabe 1489

 -
Mohammed solves a dispute over lifting the black stone into position at the Kaaba 1307 AD
Miniature illustration on vellum from the book Jami' al-Tawarikh (literally "Compendium of Chronicles" but often referred to as The Universal History or History of the World), by Rashid al-Din, published in Tabriz, Persia,

 -
Mohammed (riding the horse) receiving the submission of the Banu Nadir, a Jewish tribe he defeated at Medina. From the Jami'al-Tawarikh, dated 1314-5.

Hey lioness whats up

those are TURKS they used to be SLAVES to the BLACK ARABS

HISTORICAL DESCRIPTION OF Mohammed

Mohammed was born a.d. 570, four years after the death of Emperor Justinian, He was descended from the tribe of Koreish and the family of Hashem.

Mohammed was not a tall man, but he had such broad
shoulders that he looked like a giant. Mohammed had curly black woolly hair that gave him an excellent appearance. Finally, Mohammed married Kadijah, the rich woman of the city of Mecca, when she was about forty years old.


 -


That is a TRUE ARAB lioness

Lioness These are HABBAN HEBREWS SOUTHERN YEMEN:

The city of Habban had a Jewish community of 450 in 1947, which was considered to possibly be the remains of a larger community which lived in independently in the region before its decline in the 6th century. The Jewish community of Habban disappeared from the map of the Hadramut, in southeast Yemen, with the immagration of all of its members to Israel in the 1950s.


this is what they looked like before the KHAZARS migrated into Israel from eastern Europe in 1950s

 -


lioness see Abdullah I of Jordan in the middle he is NOT A ARAB he is a descendant of the Ottoman Turkish Rule.


now see lioness the 3 BLACK SKIN SUDANESE looking Habban Jewish bodyguards, the brothers Sayeed, Salaah, and Saadia Sofer, .
1922


see the Arabs are supposed to come from Abraham just like the HEBREWS

So in fact if the HEBREWS have BLACK SKIN then the ARABS would also RIGHT? that is common sense

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the lioness,
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 -

OK,

I put up some sveral other dark skinned folks on the previous page


on Muhammad:

________________________________________________________


n one of the earliest sources, Ibn Sa'd's Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, there are numerous verbal descriptions of Muhammad. One description sourced to Ali ibn Abi Talib is as follows:

The Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, is neither too short nor too tall. His hair are neither curly nor straight, but a mixture of the two. He is a man of black hair and large skull. His complexion has a tinge of redness. His shoulder bones are broad and his palms and feet are fleshy. He has long al-masrubah which means hair growing from neck to navel. He is of long eye-lashes, close eyebrows, smooth and shining fore-head and long space between two shoulders. When he walks he walks inclining as if coming down from a height. I never saw a man like him before him or after him


Al-Tirmidhi HadithHadith 5791 Narrated byAli ibn AbuTalib
When Ali described the Prophet (peace be upon him) he said:
He was neither very tall nor excessively short, but was a man of medium size. He had neither very curly nor flowing hair but a mixture of both.

He was not obese, he did not have a very round face, but it was so to some extent.

He was reddish-white, he had wide black eyes and long eyelashes.

He had protruding joints and shoulder-blades, he was not hairy but had some hair on his chest, and the palms of his hands and his feet were calloused.

When he walked he raised his feet as though he were walking on a slope; when he turned round he turned completely.

Between his shoulders was the seal of prophecy and he was the seal of the prophets.

He had a finer chest than anyone else, was truer in utterance than anyone else, had the gentlest nature and the noblest tribe.

Those who saw him suddenly stood in awe of him and those who shared his acquaintanceship loved him. Those who described him said they had never seen anyone like him before or since. Tirmidhi transmitted it.

Al-Muwatta Hadith Hadith 51.3 The Sunna on Hair
Yahya related to me from Malik that Ziyad ibn Sad heard Ibn Shihab say, "The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, let his hair hang down his forehead as Allah willed, and afterwards he parted it."
Malik said, "There is no harm in a man's looking at the hair of his son's wife or the hair of his wife's mother."

Sahih Muslim HadithHadith 5750 Narrated byAnas ibn Malik
I saw when the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) got his hair cut by the barber, his Companions came round him and they eagerly wanted that no hair should fall but in the hand of a person.

Sahih Muslim HadithHadith 5773 Narrated byAnas ibn Malik
Qatadah reported: I asked Anas ibn Malik: How was the hair of Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him)? Thereupon he said: His hair was neither very curly nor very straight, and they hung over his shoulders and ear-lobes.

Sahih Muslim HadithHadith 5779 Narrated byAnas ibn Malik
Ibn Sirin reported: Anas ibn Malik was asked whether Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) dyed his hair. He said: He had not become old enough to have white hair. Ibn Idris said that he had a few white hair. AbuBakr and Umar, however, dyed hair with hina' (henna).

Sunan of Abu-DawoodHadith 4179 Narrated byUmm Hani
The Prophet (peace be upon him) came to Mecca and he had four plaits of hair.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 2.787 Narrated byAbdullah
The Prophet and some of his companions got their heads shaved and some others got their hair cut short. Narrated Muawiya: I cut short the hair of Allah's Apostle with a long blade.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 3.246 Narrated byAisha
(the wife of the Prophet) Allah's Apostle used to let his head in (the house) while he was in the mosque and I would comb and oil his hair. When in Itikaf he used not to enter the house except for a need.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 4.744 Narrated byIsmail bin Abi Khalid
I heard Abii Juhaifa saying, "I saw the Prophet, and Al-Hasan bin 'Ali resembled him." I said to Abu- Juhaifa, "Describe him for me." He said, "He was white and his beard was black with some white hair. He promised to give us 13 young she-camels, but he expired before we could get them."

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 4.747 Narrated byRabia bin Abi Abdur Rahman
I heard Anas bin Malik describing the Prophet saying, "He was of medium height amongst the people, neither tall nor short; he had a rosy color, neither absolutely white nor deep brown; his hair was neither completely curly nor quite lank. Divine Inspiration was revealed to him when he was forty years old. He stayed ten years in Mecca receiving the Divine Inspiration, and stayed in Medina for ten more years. When he expired, he had scarcely twenty white hairs in his head and beard." Rabi'a said, "I saw some of his hairs and it was red. When I asked about that, I was told that it turned red because of scent."

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 4.748 Narrated byAnas
Allah's Apostle was neither very tall nor short, neither absolutely white nor deep brown. His hair was neither curly nor lank. Allah sent him (as an Apostle) when he was forty years old. Afterwards he resided in Mecca for ten years and in Medina for ten more years. When Allah took him unto Him, there was scarcely twenty white hairs in his head and beard.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 4.750 Narrated byQatada
I asked Anas, "Did the Prophet use to dye (his) hair?" He said, "No, for there were only a few white hairs on his temples."

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 4.758 Narrated byIbn Abbas
Allah's Apostle used to let his hair hang down while the infidels used to part their hair. The people of the Scriptures were used to letting their hair hang down and Allah's Apostle liked to follow the people of the Scriptures in the matters about which he was not instructed otherwise. Then Allah's Apostle parted his hair.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 5.280 Narrated byAbdullah bin Abbas
The Prophet used to keep his hair falling loose while the pagans used to part their hair, and the People of the Scriptures used to keep their hair falling loose, and the Prophet liked to follow the People of the Scriptures in matters about which he had not been instructed differently, but later on the Prophet started parting his hair.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 7.782 Narrated byMuhammad bin Sirin
I asked Anas, "Did the Prophet dye his hair?" Anas replied, "The Prophet did not have except a few grey hairs."

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 7.783 Narrated byThabit
Anas was asked whether the Prophet used a a hair dye or not. Anas replied, "The Prophet had not enough grey hair to dye. I could even count the white grey hairs of his beard if I would."

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 7.784 Narrated byIsraiI
Uthman bin 'Abdullah bin Mauhab said, "My people sent me with a bowl of water to Um Salama." Isra'il approximated three fingers ('indicating the small size of the container in which there was some hair of the Prophet). 'Uthman added, "If any person suffered from evil eye or some other disease, he would send a vessel (containing water) to Um Salama. I looked into the container (that held the hair of the Prophet) and saw a few red hairs in it."

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 7.785 Narrated byUthman bin Abdullah bin Mauhab
I went to Um Salama and she brought out for us some of the dyed hair of the Prophet.
Ibn Mauhab also said that Um Salama had shown him the red hair of the Prophet.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 7.787 Narrated byAnas bin Malik
The Prophet was neither conspicuously tall, nor short; neither very white, nor tawny. His hair was neither much curled, nor very straight. Allah sent him (as an Apostle) at the age of forty (and after that) he stayed for ten years in Mecca, and for ten more years in Medina. Allah took him unto Him at the age of sixty, and he scarcely had ten white hairs on his head and in his beard.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 7.788 Narrated byAl Bara
I did not see anybody in a red cloak looking more handsome than the Prophet. Narrated Malik: The hair of the Prophet used to hang near his shoulders. Narrated Shu'ba: The hair of the Prophet used to hang down to the earlobes.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 7.791 Narrated byQatada
I asked Anas bin Malik about the hair of Allah's Apostle. He said, "The hair of Allah's Apostle was neither much straight, nor much curly, and it used to hang down till between the shoulders and the earlobes.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 7.792 Narrated byAnas
The Prophet had big hands, and I have never seen anybody like him after him. The hair of the Prophet was wavy, neither curly nor straight.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 7.796 Narrated byAbdullah bin Umar
I heard 'Umar saying, "Whoever braids his hair should shave it (on finishing Ihram). You'd better not do, something like Talbid." Ibn Umar used to say: "I saw Allah's Apostle with his hair stuck together with gum."

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 7.799 Narrated byIbn Abbas
The Prophet used to copy the people of the Scriptures in matters in which there was no order from Allah.

The people of the Scripture used to let their hair hang down while the pagans used to part their hair. So the Prophet let his hair hang down first, but later on he parted it.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 7.800 Narrated byAisha
As if I am now looking at the shine of the hair parting of the Prophet while he was in the state of Ihram.

Sahih Al-Bukhari HadithHadith 7.806 Narrated byAisha
I used to perfume Allah's Apostle with the best scent available till I saw the shine of the scent on his head and hair.

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dana marniche
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yes lioness why do you prefer to post the paintings of Turmenistan and Uzbekistani origin and commentaries of peoples from Central Asia like Bukhari, and suggest that they are Arabs.

This commentary you like posting sounds much like the western descriptions and portrayals of Jesus and Mary rosy color with long wavy hair.

Could the prophet be the only person in Mecca of such color that wasn't a Coptic (i.e. Byzantine slave). Could he have been the only rosy colored one when all of his surrounding relatives are described as black as night or tar - Including his paternal grandfather son of a Khazraji and mother lines which were from Sulaym and the Atikas of the Azd.

“The Messenger of Allah was of medium stature, neither tall nor short, [with] a beautiful, dark brown-complexioned body. His hair was neither curly nor completely straight and
when he walked he leant forward.” [Al-Tirmidh)

And obviously the hair of the Kinanah is neither straight nor curly is it. I call it kinky.

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Ibn Sa'd wrote "Zubayr reported on the authority of Ibrahim
: The Messenger of Allah (s) stretched his left foot,such that the blackness of its exposed part was visible."

The Arabian Prophet was from the tribe of Kinanah who are STILL black lest we forget.

At a certain point even lying _sses have to use logic.

Next thing you'll be telling us that when the Chinese Ma Huan advisor to Zheng Hue wrote that the Arabs of Mecca and Hijaz extending to Jidda were of "very dark purple complexion" you'll be
interpreting that to mean their complexions were so white you could see their blue or purple veins. [Big Grin]

Bukhari and other Central Asians often wrote of the Arabs inaccurately because they wanted to put themselves in their place, (much like yourrself) just as the 9th century Rumi once said.

"You insulted them (the family of the Prophet Mohamed) because of their blackness while there are still pure-blooded black-skinned Arabs. "

Sorry but like Rumi I am not into Cetral Asian writings - for obvious reasons.

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[QB]  -

This guy is just your average much mixed Middle Eastern or Central Asian who does not biologically physically represent the early Arabs of either the tribes of Kedar or Nabit (black), nor the southern Qahtan (black) - and ESPECIALLY NOT the PROPHET or his family. [Wink]

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Boy from the clan of still living clan Kinana b. Khuzaima b. Mudrika who like the still living Hudail bin Mudrika also Kinana by blood from the tribes of Elyas (Elias) - ARE BLACK.

Tribes like the Hudhail and Kinana who were close to the prophet's lineage haven't mixed with non-Arab people i.e. Syrians and Central Asians and intermarry within their own clans.


Blacks or the black African is not called "Arapi' or Arab in Yiddish, Turkish and Greek for nothing. And "Canaanites" were not called blacks for nothing. [Frown] Neither were the Mauri and Berbers originally called blacks for nothing.

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^ I'd be careful about blanketing all early Canaanites or Arabians as that dark or "very black". Both artistic and historical evidence show that Arabians from the Bronze Age were already diverse in looks and features. I will say that the Israelites in their writings described certain tribes to their south like the Midianites, Kedarites, and others as 'shahhor' in complexion. 'Shahhor' is often translated as 'dark' though in poetry this darkness is likened to "late evening" and "wine". So no doubt they were very dark or black.

Also of relevance...
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

The DE haplogroup appeared approximately 50,000 years bp in North East Africa and subsequently split into haplogroup E that spread to Europe and Africa and haplogroup D that rapidly spread along the coastline of India and Asia to North Asia. The IJ haplogroup characterizes part of the second wave of emigration from Africa that occurred via the Middle East 45,000 years bp and defines two branches I and J that emigrated northwards and eastwards into Europe


http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNATreeTrunk.html


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--The Lancet, Volume 379, Issue 9819, Pages 915-922


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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ I'd be careful about blanketing all early Canaanites or Arabians as that dark or "very black". Both artistic and historical evidence show that Arabians from the Bronze Age were already diverse in looks and features. I will say that the Israelites in their writings described certain tribes to their south like the Midianites, Kedarites, and others as 'shahhor' in complexion. 'Shahhor' is often translated as 'dark' though in poetry this darkness is likened to "late evening" and "wine". So no doubt they were very dark or black.

Also of relevance...
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

The DE haplogroup appeared approximately 50,000 years bp in North East Africa and subsequently split into haplogroup E that spread to Europe and Africa and haplogroup D that rapidly spread along the coastline of India and Asia to North Asia. The IJ haplogroup characterizes part of the second wave of emigration from Africa that occurred via the Middle East 45,000 years bp and defines two branches I and J that emigrated northwards and eastwards into Europe


http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNATreeTrunk.html


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--The Lancet, Volume 379, Issue 9819, Pages 915-922


Djehuti - the Israelites were an ancient people who were derived from the Midianites and other Canaanite people. No Israelite every wrote anything about color, any more than any Arab wrote about Muhammad being a white man with blue eyes and long hair. Israelites were an ancient people who had nothing to do with the Septuagint and later Talmudic interpretations, which were mainly Central Asian derived.

UI would be3 careful of believing the picture spams that people have posted claiming people in ancient bas reliefs as Arabs or Arabians. I can assure you many of them ARE NOT.


one famous one that people post said to be a bearded man named Abesha the "Midianite" entering Egypt with his family by early scholars is a good case in point. I am sure most know which painting I am referring to.
Israeli were a people related to the modern Kinanah, Qureish of Arabia whom were known as related to the Lehi and Levites until recent times.

Anyone who has truly researched the subject knows that the Kinanah, Quraysh and Levites or Israel were the same people.

See what A.J. Deus and others are noting:


"The Levite Quraysh should have been Muhammad's supporters against the Ghassanid Saracens, who then lost teh Kaaba to the Quraysh...the Levite Quraysh had a new plan which was later turned into a revelation how to go home to Israel. In order to achieve that they first took revenge against the Ghassanid Saracens because their archenemies had been sitting in the Levites Kaaba." p. 148 The Great Leap Fraud: Sociol Economics of Religious Terrorism Vol. 2.


"The Levite Korahites (alias Quraysh) had dispatched one prophet after another to subvert the Roman Empire's culture to redeem the nation of Israel." p. 20

Yes, being careful is what is lacking in this day time because most people are blogging about things they no very little about.

The modern or ancient Levant should not be confused with ancient Arabia or Israel and their Canaanite (Wadhi Kinawna) forbearers.

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Djehuti
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^ While I don't doubt the Canaanite and other southern ancestry of the Israelites, they also had ancestry from more northern groups as well such as likely the Hurrians.

I generally am in agreement with Tukuler that the ancient Jews were divided into two kingdoms-- Judah and Israel-- the former in the south and the latter in the north, each assimilating different peoples in the area. The Judahites were the ones more black in appearance while the Israelites proper were no doubt lighter due to such light-skinned elements.

Of course I am of the predominant opinion that these ancient kingdoms were in the Levant instead of Arabia or Yemen. But even southern Arabia was not safe from such northern/light-skinned influence!

Recall the Pagani et al. study that talked about light-skin genes and associated Levantine ancestry found in Ethiopia here, and there is a recent study showing that such influence continues farther south in Africa albeit in much smaller frequency as shown here.

These genetic findings confirm what is found in the archaeology and especially skeletal remains-- that Arabia was already diverse due to infiltration of lighter-skinned types from the north already, and that some of this spilled out into Africa!

This fact along with more recent incursions by folks from the north is why you have some Himyarites who like the below:

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Genetic studies on Jews.


Y-DNA of Ashkenazi Jews
The term "Ashkenazi" is relatively well defined in these studies; it refers to Jews living or whose "paternal" ancestors immigrated to the following parts of central and eastern Europe: the Rhine Valley, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Austria, Hungary, former Czechoslovakia, Belarus, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, Russia, and Ukraine. This excludes the Jews of southern Europe (Balkans, Iberia and Italy). Non Jews in the latter areas are outside the definitions used for estimating the genetic make-up of the ancestral "neighbor" or "host" populations of Ashkenazim.

All relevant Y-DNA studies have concluded that the majority of the paternal genetic heritage among Ashkenazim and other Jewish communities is similar to those found dominating Middle Eastern populations, and probably originated there. A smaller but still significant part of the Ashkenazi male-line population is more likely to have originated from European populations.[citation needed]

A study of haplotypes of the Y chromosome, published in 2000, addressed the paternal origins of Ashkenazi Jews. Hammer et al.[28] confirmed that the Y chromosome of most Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews contained mutations that are also common among Middle Eastern peoples, but uncommon in the general European population. This suggested that the male ancestors of the Ashkenazi Jews could be traced mostly to the Middle East. The proportion of male genetic admixture in Ashkenazi Jews amounts to less than 0.5% per generation over an estimated 80 generations, with "relatively minor contribution of European Y chromosomes to the Ashkenazim," and a total admixture estimate "very similar to Motulsky's average estimate of 12.5%." However, when all haplotypes were included in the analysis, the admixture percentage increased to 23% ± 7%.[Note 3] Hammer et al. add that "Diaspora Jews from Europe, Northwest Africa, and the Near East resemble each other more closely than they resemble their non-Jewish neighbors." In addition, the non-Jewish components in Ashkenazim and Sephardim are generally South European, specifically Greek.

QUOTE-
Ashkenazi men show low Y-DNA diversity within each major haplogroup, meaning that compared to the size of the modern population, it seems there were once a relatively small number of men having children. This possibly results from a series of founder events and high rates of endogamy within Europe. Despite Ashkenazi Jews representing a recently founded population in Europe, founding effects suggest that they probably derived from a large and diverse ancestral source population in the Middle East, who may have been larger than the source population from which the indigenous Europeans derived.

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Y-DNA of Sephardi Jews
The term "Sephardi" refers to significantly different populations from one study to another. It can have a very restrictive meaning and only referring to people speaking Judeo-Spanish (excluding Moroccan Jews) or at the opposite the term Sephardi may designate all non-Ashkenazi populations (excluding Jews from Ethiopia, Yemen and the Kurdish Jews). Between these two extremes, all kinds of variations exist.

Investigations made by Nebel et al.[2] on the genetic relationships among Ashkenazi Jews, Kurdish and Sephardi (North Africa, Turkey, Iberian Peninsula, Iraq and Syria) indicate that Jews are more genetically similar to groups in northern Fertile Crescent (Kurds, Turks and Armenians) than to Arabs. Considering the timing of this origin, the study found that "the common genetic Middle Eastern background (of Jewish populations ) predates the ethnogenesis in the region and concludes that the Y chromosome pool of Jews is an integral part of the genetic landscape of Middle East.

Y-DNA of Jews from North Africa
The largest study to date on the Jews of North Africa has been led by Gerard Lucotte et al. in 2003.[30] This study showed that the Jews of North Africa[Note 7] showed frequencies of their paternal haplotypes almost equal to those of the Lebanese and Palestinian non-Jews.

The authors also compared the distribution of haplotypes of Jews from North Africa with Sephardi Jews and Ashkenazi Jews and found a common origin between these groups.[38] The Jewish community of the island of Djerba in Tunisia is of special interest, making the tradition back to the time of the destruction of the First Temple. Two studies have attempted to test this hypothesis first by G. Lucotte et al. from 1993,[39] the second of F. Manni et al. of 2005.[40] They also conclude that the Jews of Djerba's paternal gene pool is different from the Arabs and Berbers of the island. For the first 77.5% of samples tested are of haplotype VIII (probably similar to the J haplogroup according Lucotte), the second shows that 100% of the samples are of Haplogroup J *. The second suggests that it is unlikely that the majority of this community comes from an ancient colonization of the island while for Lucotte it is unclear whether this high frequency is really an ancient relationship.

These studies therefore suggest that the paternal lineage of North African Jews comes predominantly from the Middle East with a minority contribution of African lineages, probably Berbers.

Y-DNA of Portuguese Jews

A recent study by Inês Nogueiro et al. (July 2009) on the Jews of north-eastern Portugal (region of Trás-os-Montes) showed that their paternal lines consisted of 35.2% lineages more typical of Europe (R : 31.7%, I : 3.5% ), and 37% lineages more typical of the Near East (J1: 12%, J2-M172: 25% ) and consequently, the Portuguese Jews of this region were genetically closer to other Jewish populations than to Portuguese non-Jews.


Y-DNA of Oriental Jews
Lucotte et al. 2003 study found that (Oriental, Sephardic, Ashkenazic Jews and Lebanese and Palestinians), "seem to be similar in their Y-haplotype patterns, both with regard to the haplotype distributions and the ancestral haplotype VIII frequencies." The authors stated in their findings that these results confirm similarities in the Y-haplotype frequencies of this Near-Eastern populations, sharing a common geographic origin."


Y-DNA of Roman Jews
The Roman Jews are as their name suggests Jews were distinguished as originating in the Middle East. Mr. Hammer et al. show their paternal lines are close to those of Ashkenazi Jews, mostly originating from Middle East.


Y-DNA of Kurdish Jews
In the article by Nebel et al. the authors show that Kurdish and Sephardi Jews have paternal genetic heritage indistinguishable. The study shows that mixtures between Kurdish Jews and their Muslim hosts are negligible and that Kurdish Jews are closer to other Jewish groups than to their long term host population. Mr. Hammer had already shown the strong correlation between the genetic heritage of Jews from North Africa with Kurdish Jews.

Y-DNA of the Jews of Yemen
The studies of Shen and Hammer et al. show that the paternal genes of Yemenite Jews is similar to that of other Jewish populations.

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Y-DNA of Jews from Ethiopia
A study of Lucotte and Smets has shown that the genetic father of Beta Israel (Ethiopian Jews) was close to the Ethiopian non-Jewish populations. This is consistent with the theory that Beta Israel are descendants of ancient inhabitants of Ethiopia, not the Middle East.

Hammer et al. in 2000 and the team of Shen in 2004 arrive at similar conclusions, namely a genetic differentiation in – other people in the north of Ethiopia, which probably indicates a conversion of local populations.

A 2010 study by Behar et al. on the Genome-wide structure of Jews observed that the Beta Israel had similar levels of the Middle Eastern genetic clusters as the Semitic-speaking Tigreans and Amharas. However, compared to the Cushitic-speaking Oromos, who are the largest ethnic group in Ethiopia, the Beta Israel had higher levels of Middle Eastern admixture.


A 2012 study showed that while primarily related to the local populations, Ethiopian Jews have very distant genetic links to the Middle East from some 2,000 years ago, and are likely descended from a few Jewish founders. It has been speculated that the community began when a few itinerant Jews who settled in Ethiopia in ancient times, converted locals to Judaism, and married into the local populations.


Comparison with the genetic heritage of non-Jewish populations

The Lembas

The Lemba clans are scattered among the Bantu-speaking tribes in Zimbabwe and northern South Africa. The oral tradition traces the origin of the Jewish Lembas to Saana in Yemen. Some practices seem reminiscent of Jewish practices (circumcision, food law,…). Two studies have attempted to determine the paternal origin of these tribes. The first by A. Spurdle and T. Jenkins dates from 1996 and suggests that more than half of Lembas tested are of Semitic origin.[Note 11] The second study by Mark G. Thomas et al. dates from 2000 and also suggests that part of Lembas have a Semitic origin that can come from a mixture of Arabs and Jews.[Note 12] In addition, the authors show that clans Lemba (Buba clan) has a large proportion of the former CMH.

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Genetic studies on Arabs

The Paternal Ancestry across all Arabic countries is Haplogroup J1 especially the its major subclade J1-P58 the haplogroup that spread with Arabic conquest in the 7th century. It was found that Haplogroup J1 occur at high frequencies among the Arabic-speaking populations of the Middle East and is the prevalent Y-chromosome lineage within the Near East. Haplogroup J1e (J-P58) is also associated with a Semitic linguistic common denominator, with the YCAII 22-22 allele state is closely associated with J1e. J-P58 subclade of J1 is single paternal lineage originated in the Near East of high frequency in Bedouins 70% Yemenis 68% Jordanians 55% , 55% of Palestinian Arabs, 48% of Omani People 34% of Tunisians, 35% of Algerians, and its precipitations drop in frequency as one moves away from Saudi Arabia and the Near East. J-P58 include all the J1-CMH haplotypes and is YCAII=22-22 motif, both found in Arabs and J1-Cohanim Jews (descendents of Aaron) The motif YCAII=22-22 characterise a monophyletic clad found in Arabs but less frequent in Ethiopian J1 and rare in Europe and Caucasus. It is now been resolved that the Arabic clade J1-P58,L147.1 that include all J1-Cohanim Jews and all CMH haplotypes and is YCAII=22-22. was the J1 clade that spread far and wide by the Islamic conquest Both Qahtanite and Adnanite Arabs are J1-P58 haplogroup since the Arabs of North Africa like Algeria (known to have Qahtanite lineage from the Arab conquest and Adnanite lineage from Bani Hilal and bani Sulaim migration to North Africa in the 10th century by the Fatimides, yet only E of the Berber and J1 are found in Arabs of North Africa and this J1 is marked by CMH and the motif YCAII=22-22. The J2 in Algerian Arabs is minor 3% and is of the rare J2-M67 of Chechnea rarely found in other Arabic countries and non existant in Arabian Peninsula and Yemen.

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Jews and Arabs Share Recent Ancestry


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Related. The Y chromosome, bottom right, pegs Jews and Arabs as cousins.

COLD SPRING HARBOR, NEW YORK--As fighting continues in the Middle East, a new genetic study shows that many Arabs and Jews are closely related. More than 70% of Jewish men and half of the Arab men whose DNA was studied inherited their Y chromosomes from the same paternal ancestors who lived in the region within the last few thousand years.


The results match historical accounts that some Moslem Arabs are descended from Christians and Jews who lived in the southern Levant, a region that includes Israel and the Sinai. They were descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times. And in a recent study of 1371 men from around the world, geneticist Michael Hammer of the University of Arizona in Tucson found that the Y chromosome in Middle Eastern Arabs was almost indistinguishable from that of Jews.


Intrigued by the genetic similarities between the two populations, geneticist Ariella Oppenheim of Hebrew University in Jerusalem, who collaborated on the earlier study, focused on Arab and Jewish men. Her team examined the Y chromosomes of 119 Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews and 143 Israeli and Palestinian Arabs. Many of the Jewish subjects were descended from ancestors who presumably originated in the Levant but dispersed throughout the world before returning to Israel in the past few generations; most of the Arab subjects could trace their ancestry to men who had lived in the region for centuries or longer. The Y chromosomes of many of the men had key segments of DNA that were so similar that they clustered into just three of many groups known as haplogroups. Other short segments of DNA called microsatellites were similar enough to reveal that the men must have had common ancestors within the past several thousand years. The study, reported here at a Human Origins and Disease conference, will appear in an upcoming issue of Human Genetics.


Hammer praises the new study for "focusing in detail on the Jewish and Palestinian populations." Oppenheim's team found, for example, that Jews have mixed more with European populations, which makes sense because some of them lived in Europe during the last millennium.

http://news.sciencemag.org/2000/10/jews-and-arabs-share-recent-ancestry

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Jews and Arabs are 'genetic brothers'
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Jewish heritage has been maintained


They may have their differences but Jews and Arabs share a common genetic heritage that stretches back thousands of years.


The striking similarities in their biology have just been revealed in a study of over 1,300 men in almost 30 countries worldwide.


Scientists compared the men's Y chromosomes, the tiny structures within cells that carry the genetic instructions that tell a developing foetus to become a boy.


The comparison also showed that Jews have successfully resisted having their gene pool diluted, despite having lived among non-Jews for thousands of years in what is commonly known as the Diaspora - the time since 556 BC when Jews migrated out of Palestine.


Genetic signatures

Throughout human history, alterations have occurred in the sequence of chemical bases that make up the DNA in the Y chromosome, leaving variations that can be pinpointed with modern genetic techniques.


Related populations carry the same specific variations. In this way, scientists can track descendants of large populations and determine their common ancestors.

The study, published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, found that Jewish men shared a common set of genetic signatures with non-Jews from the Middle East, including Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese.


These signatures were significantly different from non-Jewish men outside of the Middle East. This means Jews and Arabs have more in common with each other, genetically speaking, than they do with any of the wider communities in which they might live.


Good opportunity


Dr Mark Jobling of Leicester University, UK, one of the authors of the new study, told the BBC: "The kind of DNA we have used to analyse this question is the human Y chromosome. This represents only 2% of our genetic material and it is passed down from father to son.


"This makes it particularly interesting to use in a study of Jewish populations because Jewishness is passed down from the mother to children - it is maternally inherited. So using a paternally inherited piece of DNA gives us a good opportunity to see the signal of mixture with other populations if this has occurred.

"The fact that we don't see it suggests that after the Diaspora these populations really have managed to maintain their Jewish heritage.


Dr Jobling dismissed the idea that the study could have any political implications. "It seems that in many of these situations where groups are in conflict with each other they are likely to be pretty much genetically indistinguishable, and this factor, to the peoples involved in these conflicts, clearly isn't the point and isn't likely to change their behaviour very much."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sci/tech/742430.stm

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Frequencies og haplogroup J1 in Europe and West Asia tend to vary considerably from one regional community to the next. The highest local percentages in Europe are found in Greece, Italy, France, Spain and Portugal and hardly ever exceed 5% of the population. However Italy, France and Spain also have areas where J1 appears completely absent. Even in northern Europe, where the nation-wide frequencies are below 0.5%, very localised pockets of J1 have been observed in Scotland, England, Belgium, Germany and Poland. Larger sample sizes are needed to get a clearer picture of the distribution of J1 in Europe.


J1 can be divided in two main groups: the very large J1-P58 subclade, and the other branches of J1.


J1-P58 (J1b2 on the ISOGG tree, formerly known as J1c3) is by far the most widespread subclade of J1. It is a typically Semitic haplogroup, making up most of the population of the Arabian peninsula, where it accounts for approximately 40% t 75% of male lineages. The dominant lineage in the Arabian peninsula is J1-L147.1, which corresponds to the demographic explosion that followed the Muslim conquest in the 7th century CE.


L147.1 is also the Cohen Modal Haplotype. Roughly half of all Cohanim belong to the L147.1 subclade. In the Hebrew Bible the common ancestor of all Cohens is identified as Aaron, the brother of Moses.


J1-P58 is thought to have expanded from eastern Anatolia to the Levant, Taurus and Zagros mountains and the Arabian peninsula at the end of the last Ice Age (12,000 years ago) with the seasonal migrations of pastoralists. Arabic speakers recolonised the Arabian peninsula in the Bronze Age from the north-west of the peninsula, close to modern Jordan. The rise of Islam in the 7th century CE played a major part in the re-expansion of J1 from Arabia throughout the Middle East, as well as to North Africa, and to a lower extent to Sicily and southern Spain.


J1-L147.1 is the main Arabic cluster as well as the Cohanim haplotype (YCAII=22-22) among Jews.

J1-L444 is a small Arabic subclade defined by DYS531=12.


J1-Z640 (aka Z641 or Z644) is mostly a European subclade, although it has been found also in Turkey and in the Arabian peninsula. Z640+ members typically have DYS561=14. Its subclade L174.1 can be identifed by the STR value DYS594=11.


J1-L817 is a major Jewish cluster, also defined by L818 and DYS392=13. Some members belong to its subclade L816.


J1-L136 lineages negative for P56 or P58 are generally restricted to Europe. L136 is found in Eastern, Central and Mediterranean Europe. It also probably has a Neolithic origin.

J1-P56 is a minor Arabic cluster found on the Red Sea coast of Saudi Arabia and Yemen. It can be identified by the STR value DYS641=11.

J1-Z1828 is defined by the STR values DYS436=11 and DYS388<15. This is the second most common top level subclade after J1-P58. It is particularly frequent around the Taurus and Zagros mountains and in the Caucasus, but has also been found at low frequencies in western Turkey, Greece, South Italy, Central Europe, France, and the British Isles. The L1189 subclade seems to be mostly European, while the Z1842 subclade is chiefly restricted to the Caucasus, Zagros and Taurus.

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Sudan and ethiopia do have J1 or J.that's the confusion.
They have the subclade of J1,CALLED J1 AND those later subclades.
J is only found or Haplogroup J-P209 is only found in the arabian peninsula and Socotra.


Haplogroup J-P209

Ancestor
IJ
Descendants
J-M267, J-M172
Defining mutations
12f2.1, L134, M304, P209, S6/L60, S34, S35


Haplogroup J-M267
In Genetic genealogy and human genetics, Y DNA haplogroup J-M267, also commonly known as Haplogroup J1 is a subclade (branch) of Y-DNA haplogroup J-P209, (commonly known as Haplogroup J) along with its sibling clade Y DNA haplogroup J-M172 (commonly known as Haplogroup J2). (All these haplogroups have had other historical names listed below.[Phylogenetics 1][Phylogenetics 2])


Men from this lineage share a common paternal ancestor, which is demonstrated and defined by the presence of the SNP mutation referred to as M267, which was announced in (Cinnioğlu 2004). This haplogroup is found today in significant frequencies in many areas in order near the Middle East, and parts of the Caucasus, Sudan and the Horn of Africa. It is also found in high frequencies in parts of North Africa and amongst Jewish groups, especially those with Cohen surnames. It can also be found much less commonly, but still occasionally in significant amounts, in Europe and as far east as Central Asia.

Ancestor
J-P209
Descendants
J-M62, J-M365.1, J-L136, J-Z1828


Defining mutations
M267, L255, L321, L765, L814, L827, L1030


Origins
Since the discovery of haplogroup J-P209 it has generally been recognized that it shows signs of having originated in or near West Asia. The frequency and diversity of both its major branches, J-M267 and J-M172, in that region makes them candidates as genetic markers of the spread of farming technology during the Neolithic, which is proposed to have had a major impact upon human populations.

J-M267 has several recognized subclades, some of which were recognized before J-M267 itself was recognized, for example J-M62 Y Chromosome Consortium "YCC" 2002. With one notable exception, J-P58, most of these are not common (Tofanelli 2009). Because of the dominance of J-P58 in J-M267 populations in many areas, discussion of J-M267's origins require a discussion of J-P58 at the same time.


In molecular evolution, a haplogroup (from the Greek: ἁπλούς, haploûs, "onefold, single, simple") is a group of similar haplotypes that share a common ancestor having the same single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) mutation in all haplotypes. Haplogroup J-P209[Phylogenetics 1] is a Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup. Its history since the Iron Age has been tied to the great events and migrations in this area and in particular to the Semitic people.


J-P209 is divided into two main subclades (branches) J-M267 and J-M172.


Distribution
Haplogroup J-P209 is found in greatest concentration in Southwestern Arabian Peninsula. Outside of this region, haplogroup J-P209 has a presence in North Africa. It also has a moderate presence in Southern Europe (especially in central and southern Italy, Malta, Greece, and Albania), Central Asia, and South Asia, particularly in the form of its subclade J-M172. Haplogroup J-P209 is also found in north East Africa, particularly in the form of its J-M267 subclade. The J-M410 subclade is found mostly in Greece, Anatolia, and southern Italy. In Northern India, 28.7% of the Shia Muslim among whom are the Sayyid population, belong to haplogroup J2.


There are two J1'S.
The second one is a subclade of the first.

Subclades of the second J1.

Arab dna in africa or arab admixture in africa info below.

Distribution
Africa

North Africa received Semitic migrations, according to some studies it may have been diffused in recent time by Arabs who, mainly from the 7th century a.d., expanded to northern Africa (Arredi 2004 and Semino 2004). However the Canary islands is not known to have had any Semitic language. There J-M267 is dominated by J-P58, and dispersed in a very uneven manner according to studies so far, often but not always being lower among Berber and/or non-urban populations. In Ethiopia there are signs of older movements of J-M267 into Africa across the Red Sea, not only in the J-P58 form. This also appears to be associated with Semitic languages. According to a study in 2011, in Tunisia, J-M267 is significantly more abundant in the urban (31.3%) than in the rural total population (2.5%). According to the authors, these results could be explained by supposing that Arabization in Tunisia was a military enterprise, therefore, mainly driven by men that displaced native Berbers to geographically marginal areas but that frequently married Berber women (Ennafaa 2011).


Arab dna/or admixture in africa.
J1c3

"In North Africa,It spread to North Africa (as identified by the motif YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22; among Algerians 35.0%, Tunisians 31%), J1 first entered Ethiopia with the spread of Semitic speakers[citation needed] Eritrea (11%), Ethiopia (9%), Ethiopia-Amhara (33.3%). J1 also may be found with high frequency in the northern parts of Sudan (J-12f2(xJ2-M172): Arabs 45%, Nubians 41%, Copts 39%, Beja 36%), and present with lower frequency in the region of Darfur (J-12f2(xJ2-M172): Masalit 6%, Fur 6%). Haplogroup J1 may be found in as many as 20% of Egyptian males, with the frequency of this haplogroup tending to be comparatively high in the south of the country.


In human genetics, Haplogroup J1c3 (P58) is a Y-chromosome haplogroup which is a subdivision of haplogroup J1c. It was known as J1e until February 2010, when a number of mutations were discovered in the J1 tree that made a change in nomenclature necessary.


Origin
A 2009 study concluded that the haplogroup had a more Northern origin than previously thought. According to this article, the origin of J1c3 is likely to have been in "a geographical zone, including northeast Syria, northern Iraq and eastern Turkey", spreading southward and towards the Mediterranean. Moreover, the network analysis of J1c3 haplotypes shows that some of the populations with low diversity, such as Bedouins from Israel, Qatar, Sudan and UAE, are tightly clustered near high-frequency haplotypes suggesting founder effects with "star burst" expansion in the Arabian Desert. The overall conclusion of the study was that that J1c3 spread with pastoral nomads who would migrate based on rainfall patterns from the Zagros and Taurus mountains to the Levant, with the first such migrations occurring during the neolithic period.


The P58 marker which defines subgroup J1c3 was first identified by Karafet et al. in 2008. From early commercial testing, it appears that its associated Y-STR haplotype range spans many of the haplotypes associated with haplogroup J1, and that the majority of the members of haplogroup J1 will belong to this subgroup, with some smaller P58-negative groups.


J1c3d
The expansion of Haplogroup J1c3d is closely tied to the expansion of the Semitic languages, they themselves both linked to the expansion of herder–hunters moving into the arid regions of the Arabian Peninsula., which is both consistent with J1c3d's age estimate and its parent clade's place of highest diversity.


Arabian Plate
Haplogroup J1c3, defined by the P58 marker is most frequent in Yemen-Saudi (65%) It is also very common among other Arabs such as those of the Levant, i.e. Palestinian (38.5%), Syria (30%), Lebanon (25%). In Jewish populations, J1c3 constitutes 30% of the Yemenite Jews, 20.0% of Ashkenazi results, and 12% of Sephardi results.

North Africa
In North Africa, J1c3 first entered Ethiopia in the Neolithic and is common among Semitic speakers, with a frequency of 33.3% among Amharas in Semino et al. 2004. It spread later to North Africa in historic times (as identified by the motif YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22; Algerians 35.0%, Tunisians 31%), where it became something like a marker of the Arab expansion in the early medieval period. Haplogroup J1 may be found in as many as 20% of Egyptian males,[8] with the frequency of this haplogroup tending to be comparatively high in the south of the country. Arredi et al. report Haplogroup J, apart from Haplogroup J2, in 4 out of 44 men tested (9.1%) from a sample of Egyptians from the vicinity of Mansoura in northern Egypt, and 6/29 = 20.7% of a sample of Egyptians from the vicinity of Luxor in southern Egypt.


Eurasian Plate
The frequency of Haplogroup J1c3 collapses suddenly at the borders of Arabic speaking countries [citation needed] with mainly non-Arabic speaking countries, such as Iran (10.40%) and Turkey (9%). The distribution of J1 outside of the Middle East is associated with Middle Eastern traders of the Neolithic who settled in Europe. It is also seen in the Black sea region of Turkey as well as in Dagestan, Russia in the Caucasus. In a study of 259 men of minorities from Iran and Azerbaijan (Roewer2009), 17-marker STR haplotypes resembling those typical for J1c3 were found in Iranian Arabs at 23.9%, and 10.9% in nearby Bakhtiaris. North Talysh (now part of Azerbaijan) had an incidence of 16.3. 11.1% in South Talysh, 7.0% in Gilaki and 4.4% in Mazandarani.

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Jewish DNA - Genetic Research and The Origins of the Jewish People

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRtc0XaA5k0


For more info.
Genetic studies on Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews

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Edited-
Added info.

Sudan and ethiopia do have J1 or J.that's the confusion.
They have the subclade of J1,CALLED J1 AND those later subclades.
J is only found or Haplogroup J-P209 is only found in the arabian peninsula and Socotra.


Haplogroup J-P209

Ancestor
IJ
Descendants
J-M267, J-M172
Defining mutations
12f2.1, L134, M304, P209, S6/L60, S34, S35


Haplogroup J-M267
In Genetic genealogy and human genetics, Y DNA haplogroup J-M267, also commonly known as Haplogroup J1 is a subclade (branch) of Y-DNA haplogroup J-P209, (commonly known as Haplogroup J) along with its sibling clade Y DNA haplogroup J-M172 (commonly known as Haplogroup J2). (All these haplogroups have had other historical names listed below.[Phylogenetics 1][Phylogenetics 2])


Men from this lineage share a common paternal ancestor, which is demonstrated and defined by the presence of the SNP mutation referred to as M267, which was announced in (Cinnioğlu 2004). This haplogroup is found today in significant frequencies in many areas in order near the Middle East, and parts of the Caucasus, Sudan and the Horn of Africa. It is also found in high frequencies in parts of North Africa and amongst Jewish groups, especially those with Cohen surnames. It can also be found much less commonly, but still occasionally in significant amounts, in Europe and as far east as Central Asia.

Ancestor
J-P209
Descendants
J-M62, J-M365.1, J-L136, J-Z1828


Defining mutations
M267, L255, L321, L765, L814, L827, L1030


Origins
Since the discovery of haplogroup J-P209 it has generally been recognized that it shows signs of having originated in or near West Asia. The frequency and diversity of both its major branches, J-M267 and J-M172, in that region makes them candidates as genetic markers of the spread of farming technology during the Neolithic, which is proposed to have had a major impact upon human populations.

J-M267 has several recognized subclades, some of which were recognized before J-M267 itself was recognized, for example J-M62 Y Chromosome Consortium "YCC" 2002. With one notable exception, J-P58, most of these are not common (Tofanelli 2009). Because of the dominance of J-P58 in J-M267 populations in many areas, discussion of J-M267's origins require a discussion of J-P58 at the same time.


In molecular evolution, a haplogroup (from the Greek: ἁπλούς, haploûs, "onefold, single, simple") is a group of similar haplotypes that share a common ancestor having the same single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) mutation in all haplotypes. Haplogroup J-P209[Phylogenetics 1] is a Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup. Its history since the Iron Age has been tied to the great events and migrations in this area and in particular to the Semitic people.


J-P209 is divided into two main subclades (branches) J-M267 and J-M172.


Distribution
Haplogroup J-P209 is found in greatest concentration in Southwestern Arabian Peninsula. Outside of this region, haplogroup J-P209 has a presence in North Africa. It also has a moderate presence in Southern Europe (especially in central and southern Italy, Malta, Greece, and Albania), Central Asia, and South Asia, particularly in the form of its subclade J-M172. Haplogroup J-P209 is also found in north East Africa, particularly in the form of its J-M267 subclade. The J-M410 subclade is found mostly in Greece, Anatolia, and southern Italy. In Northern India, 28.7% of the Shia Muslim among whom are the Sayyid population, belong to haplogroup J2.


There are two J1'S.
The second one is a subclade of the first.

Subclades of the second J1.

Arab dna in africa or arab admixture in africa info below.

Distribution
Africa

North Africa received Semitic migrations, according to some studies it may have been diffused in recent time by Arabs who, mainly from the 7th century a.d., expanded to northern Africa (Arredi 2004 and Semino 2004). However the Canary islands is not known to have had any Semitic language. There J-M267 is dominated by J-P58, and dispersed in a very uneven manner according to studies so far, often but not always being lower among Berber and/or non-urban populations. In Ethiopia there are signs of older movements of J-M267 into Africa across the Red Sea, not only in the J-P58 form. This also appears to be associated with Semitic languages. According to a study in 2011, in Tunisia, J-M267 is significantly more abundant in the urban (31.3%) than in the rural total population (2.5%). According to the authors, these results could be explained by supposing that Arabization in Tunisia was a military enterprise, therefore, mainly driven by men that displaced native Berbers to geographically marginal areas but that frequently married Berber women (Ennafaa 2011).


Arab dna/or admixture in africa.
J1c3

"In North Africa,It spread to North Africa (as identified by the motif YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22; among Algerians 35.0%, Tunisians 31%), J1 first entered Ethiopia with the spread of Semitic speakers[citation needed] Eritrea (11%), Ethiopia (9%), Ethiopia-Amhara (33.3%). J1 also may be found with high frequency in the northern parts of Sudan (J-12f2(xJ2-M172): Arabs 45%, Nubians 41%, Copts 39%, Beja 36%), and present with lower frequency in the region of Darfur (J-12f2(xJ2-M172): Masalit 6%, Fur 6%). Haplogroup J1 may be found in as many as 20% of Egyptian males, with the frequency of this haplogroup tending to be comparatively high in the south of the country.


In human genetics, Haplogroup J1c3 (P58) is a Y-chromosome haplogroup which is a subdivision of haplogroup J1c. It was known as J1e until February 2010, when a number of mutations were discovered in the J1 tree that made a change in nomenclature necessary.


Origin
A 2009 study concluded that the haplogroup had a more Northern origin than previously thought. According to this article, the origin of J1c3 is likely to have been in "a geographical zone, including northeast Syria, northern Iraq and eastern Turkey", spreading southward and towards the Mediterranean. Moreover, the network analysis of J1c3 haplotypes shows that some of the populations with low diversity, such as Bedouins from Israel, Qatar, Sudan and UAE, are tightly clustered near high-frequency haplotypes suggesting founder effects with "star burst" expansion in the Arabian Desert. The overall conclusion of the study was that that J1c3 spread with pastoral nomads who would migrate based on rainfall patterns from the Zagros and Taurus mountains to the Levant, with the first such migrations occurring during the neolithic period.


The P58 marker which defines subgroup J1c3 was first identified by Karafet et al. in 2008. From early commercial testing, it appears that its associated Y-STR haplotype range spans many of the haplotypes associated with haplogroup J1, and that the majority of the members of haplogroup J1 will belong to this subgroup, with some smaller P58-negative groups.


J1c3d
The expansion of Haplogroup J1c3d is closely tied to the expansion of the Semitic languages, they themselves both linked to the expansion of herder–hunters moving into the arid regions of the Arabian Peninsula., which is both consistent with J1c3d's age estimate and its parent clade's place of highest diversity.


Arabian Plate
Haplogroup J1c3, defined by the P58 marker is most frequent in Yemen-Saudi (65%) It is also very common among other Arabs such as those of the Levant, i.e. Palestinian (38.5%), Syria (30%), Lebanon (25%). In Jewish populations, J1c3 constitutes 30% of the Yemenite Jews, 20.0% of Ashkenazi results, and 12% of Sephardi results.

North Africa
In North Africa, J1c3 first entered Ethiopia in the Neolithic and is common among Semitic speakers, with a frequency of 33.3% among Amharas in Semino et al. 2004. It spread later to North Africa in historic times (as identified by the motif YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22; Algerians 35.0%, Tunisians 31%), where it became something like a marker of the Arab expansion in the early medieval period. Haplogroup J1 may be found in as many as 20% of Egyptian males,[8] with the frequency of this haplogroup tending to be comparatively high in the south of the country. Arredi et al. report Haplogroup J, apart from Haplogroup J2, in 4 out of 44 men tested (9.1%) from a sample of Egyptians from the vicinity of Mansoura in northern Egypt, and 6/29 = 20.7% of a sample of Egyptians from the vicinity of Luxor in southern Egypt.


Eurasian Plate
The frequency of Haplogroup J1c3 collapses suddenly at the borders of Arabic speaking countries [citation needed] with mainly non-Arabic speaking countries, such as Iran (10.40%) and Turkey (9%). The distribution of J1 outside of the Middle East is associated with Middle Eastern traders of the Neolithic who settled in Europe. It is also seen in the Black sea region of Turkey as well as in Dagestan, Russia in the Caucasus. In a study of 259 men of minorities from Iran and Azerbaijan (Roewer2009), 17-marker STR haplotypes resembling those typical for J1c3 were found in Iranian Arabs at 23.9%, and 10.9% in nearby Bakhtiaris. North Talysh (now part of Azerbaijan) had an incidence of 16.3. 11.1% in South Talysh, 7.0% in Gilaki and 4.4% in Mazandarani.


I MADE mistake before,it seem that some folks in northern sudan do have arab admixture and it was not J THAT enter sudan,it was J1 IN J1c3 SUBCLADE FORM.

EARLY J HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ARABS AND THE FIRST J1.

Haplogroup J1c3 IS ARAB.
Most nubians in sudan are still unmixed and most still do not have recent arab admixture from the info above plus 2% do have of later J2,but in egypt most do have arab admixture.

Large number of arab sudanese do have recent arab admixture too and the beja.


Haplogroup J1c3 is a later J1 SUBCLADE.

The first one is black southwest asian in origin,the second J1
and later ONES are not.

There two J1'S,THAT IS WHAT WE OR I was confused about.

This J1 is really the arab-Haplogroup J1c3.


Nubians (Agriculturists; n=39; Nilo-Saharan, Eastern Sudanic)

3/39 = 7.7% B-M60 - Nilotic

3/39 = 7.7% E1b1b-M215(xE1b1b1a-M7.8. North East Africa

5/39 = 12.8% E1b1b1a1-V12(xE1b1b1a1b-V32) North East Africa

1/39 = 2.6% E1b1b1a1b-V32 North East Africa

4/39 = 10.3% F-M89(xH1-M52, I-M170, J-12f2, K-M9) Western Asia
Admixture but black in origin.


2/39 = 5.1% I-M170 - Near East
Admixture from turks
This is later subclade from.Is recent and came in with the turks

16/39 = 41.0% J-12f2(xJ2-M172) - Arabic

Recent arab admixture

1/39 = 2.6% J2-M172 -Arabic
Recent arab admixture

4/39 = 10.3% R1b1-P25 - Chadic
Recent admixture but with other blacks from west africa,mostly like hausa.


So about 46% of nile nubians have outside white admixture,if you add the other nubians in sudan that admixture goes down to around less the 20% or something like that.

Half of the arabs in sudan would have admixture and half do not.

More info about that below.

Sudan; Nile Valley; Y-chromosome; haplogroups.
quote-
It seems that gene flow is not only recent (Holocene
onward) but also largely of focal nature. Most speakers
of Nilo-Saharan languages, the major linguistic family

spoken in the country, show very little evidence of gene

flow and demonstrate low migration rate, with exception
of the Nubians, who appear to have sustained consider-
able gene flow from Asia and Europe together with the Beja. Both Beja and Nubians lie at entering ports of the Sudan; the Beja in the Red Sea area where past and
where recent settlements of both Turks and Arabs are evident,

Arabs and Nubians occupy a strip along the Nile bordering

bordering south of Egypt, where successive waves of migration and

migration conquest of the Sudan have passed over the millennia
the (MacMichael, 1967; Hassan, 1968).

This is attested by the remarkable presence of the J-M172 chromosome known to be quite frequent in Turkey and the Levant, as known to be quite frequent in Turkey and the Levant, as logroup J-12f2 (Al-Zahery, 2003; Giacomo et al., 2004) and the bondage and genetic continuum of the Nubians with their kin in southern Egypt is indicated by compa-
rable frequencies of E-V12 the predominant M78 sub-clade among southern Egyptians (Cruciani et al., 2007).The group that displayed the highest population size in fact was the Gaalien from central Sudan. This group occupies a trading crossroad that extends back to the an-cient Kingdom of Meroe. The Gaalien exhibits a Y-profile
that gives insight into past and recent migrations to the Sudan. Interestingly, they still maintain low frequencies of haplogroup A-M13 and E-M78, which suggests older rooting and relates them to other neighboring popula-tions. Considerable frequencies of Eurasian haplogroups including J-12f2 are also present, consistent with a more recent Arabic oral tradition and descent.Among other groups with a relatively large population size are the Hausa and Copts. Hausa display elevated frequencies of the haplogroup R-P25, which is considered as an evidence for back migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa (Cruciani et al., 2002), although a recent study questions the reliability of this marker being used in singularity (Adams et al., 2006). Other groups with varying frequencies of this haplogroup, like the Borgu and Nubians, appear to have acquired it from Afro-Asi-atic speaking groups through gene flow. We have recently shown that this haplogroup is strongly associ-ated with the sickle cell gene. Both markers might have co-introgressed during the past 300 years to eastern Sahel (Bereir et al., 2007).


Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese:
Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With
Language, Geography, and History
Hisham Y. Hassan,1 Peter A. Underhill,2 Luca L. Cavalli-Sforza,2 and Muntaser E. Ibrahim1*
1Institute of Endemic Diseases, University of Khartoum, Sudan
2Department of Genetics, School of Medicine, Stanford University, CA

Sudan; Nile Valley; Y-chromosome; haplogroups

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NOTE-
The Gaalien (arabized nubians)only have 40% arab admixture AND 4% european or turk admixture.
So most are still unmixed blacks,but a large number do have outside white admixture.

Arabs/Gaalien (Agriculturists; n=50; Afro-Asiatic, Semitic)

3/50 = 6.0% A3b2-M13 - Nilotic
3/50 = 6.0% E1b1b1a1-V12(xE1b1b1a1b-V32) North East Africa
3/50 = 6.0% E1b1b1a1b-V32 North East Africa
3/50 = 6.0% E1b1b1a3-V22 North East Africa
5/50 = 10.0% F-M89(xH1-M52, I-M 170, J-12f2, K-M9)Western Asia
2/50 = 4.0% I-M170 Near East
18/50 = 36.0% J-12f2(xJ2-M172) Arabic
2/50 = 4.0% J2-M172 Arabic
3/50 = 6.0% K-M9(xL-M11, O-M175, P-M74) Southwestern Asia
1/50 = 2.0% R1-M173(xR1b1-P25) Chadic
7/50 = 14.0% R1b1-P25 - Chadic

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I found this in another forum FROM THIS POSTER CALLED Mortified.


Mortified-
quote:



This could explain the prevalence of J1 among the Bejas:

The Rabica and their supporters played a leading role in the
spread of Islam and Arab influence in the Land of the Mines:
After their quarrel with al-(Umar1, they allied themselves with the
Beja, with whom they intermarried extensively. They were thus to
benefit from the matrilineal system of succession (prevelant all
over the Sudan at that time) and inherit the control of the whole
region. A contemporary source (al-Masciidi) states that in 943,
the chief of the Rabica, Bisr b. Marwan, also entitled the <<Owner
of the Mines?) had at his disposal 3000 horsemen from the Rabica
and 30,000 from the Hadariba i.e. the Beja Muslims. A descendent
of this Bisr, called Abui l-Makarim Hibat Allah, was rewarded with
the title of Kanz al-Dawla or the Treasure of the State for his
collaboration with the Fatimid Caliph al-Hakim, to capture
AbM Rakwa, the Umayyad rebel, in ioo6. This title was used by his
successors who became known as Banil l-Kanz and who became a local force whose authority covered much of al-Manls and the Land
of the Mines 1.
In time the produce of the mines decreased gradually until it
stopped completely about the middle of the fourteenth century
and they were smothered with sand. The reasons for this decline
were probably due to the simple exhaustion of the best mines, the
attacks of the Beja and the Arab tribes and also because the
produce did not cover the expenses. Hence those engaged in ming
activities started to search for other occupations further to the
south.
The Arab migration to the Beja country was not confined to
the Land of the Mines, but reached as far as Khor Nubt about
seventy miles north-east of Haiya station, near Sinkat, where
the remains of an Arab colony that dates from 825-94I were
discovered. Its inhabitants were probably engaged in rearing and
trading in camels which played an important role in the conveyance
of goods between the mines, the Nile and the Red Sea Ports



Let's not forgot that turks were there two.

Sudan
Beja (Pastoralists; n=42; Afro-Asiatic, Cushitic?)
2/42 = 4.8% A3b2-M13 - Nilotic
7/42 = 16.7% E1b1b-M215(xE1b1b1a-M7.8. - North East Africa
2/42 = 4.8% E1b1b1a1-V12(xE1b1b1a1b-V32) North East Africa
13/42 = 31.0% E1b1b1a1b-V32 -North East Africa
15/42 = 35.7% J-12f2(xJ2-M172) Arabic
1/42 = 2.4% J2-M172 -Arabic
2/42 = 4.8% R1b1-P25 - Chadic


So this means 38.1% of the beja have arab admixture and the rest do not.

J2 is either mamluk or turk or both.
All three invaders dna in these profiles are in modern sudan.

Modern Dna info is more detailed and clear for sudan that egypt.

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Here is a chart.


quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Note that 15% of sampled Sudanese Copts have B-M60
one of the internal African markers not invovlved in the
OoA expansion.

 -

OR
Sudan.
Copts (Agriculturists; n=33; Afro-Asiatic, Ancient Egyptian > Semitic)
5/33 = 15.2% B-M60 - Nilotic.
[Smile]

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Correction,early J,was in ancient egypt.

Quote-
Haplogroup J-P209 is found in greatest concentration in Southwestern Arabian Peninsula. Outside of this region, haplogroup J-P209 has a presence in North Africa. It also has a moderate presence in Southern Europe (especially in central and southern Italy, Malta, Greece, and Albania), Central Asia, and South Asia, particularly in the form of its subclade J-M172. Haplogroup J-P209 is also found in north East Africa, particularly in the form of its J-M267 subclade. The J-M410 subclade is found mostly in Greece, Anatolia, and southern Italy. In Northern India, 28.7% of the Shia Muslim among whom are the Sayyid population, belong to haplogroup J2.
_________________
Time for a wake up call.
To recap briefly.


J was in ethiopia earlier but it's the subclade form.


The arab marker-J1-P58


J1-P58 (J1b2 on the ISOGG tree, formerly known as J1c3) is by far the most widespread subclade of J1. It is a typically Semitic haplogroup, making up most of the population of the Arabian peninsula, where it accounts for approximately 40% t 75% of male lineages. The dominant lineage in the Arabian peninsula is J1-L147.1, which corresponds to the demographic explosion that followed the Muslim conquest in the 7th century CE.

J1-L147.1 is the main Arabic cluster as well as the Cohanim haplotype (YCAII=22-22) among Jews.
This is arab also.
quote-
J1-P56 is a minor Arabic cluster found on the Red Sea coast of Saudi Arabia and Yemen. It can be identified by the STR value DYS641=11.


J1-L444 is a small Arabic subclade defined by DYS531=12.


J1-L817 is a major Jewish cluster, also defined by L818 and DYS392=13. Some members belong to its subclade L816.


J1-Z640 (aka Z641 or Z644) is mostly a European subclade, although it has been found also in Turkey and in the Arabian peninsula. Z640+ members typically have DYS561=14. Its subclade L174.1 can be identifed by the STR value DYS594=11.


J1c3d
The expansion of Haplogroup J1c3d is closely tied to the expansion of the Semitic languages, they themselves both linked to the expansion of herder–hunters moving into the arid regions of the Arabian Peninsula., which is both consistent with J1c3d's age estimate and its parent clade's place of highest diversity.

Arabian Plate

Haplogroup J1c3, defined by the P58 marker is most frequent in Yemen-Saudi (65%) It is also very common among other Arabs such as those of the Levant, i.e. Palestinian (38.5%), Syria (30%), Lebanon (25%). In Jewish populations, J1c3 constitutes 30% of the Yemenite Jews, 20.0% of Ashkenazi results, and 12% of Sephardi results.

North Africa
In North Africa, J1c3 first entered Ethiopia in the Neolithic and is common among Semitic speakers, with a frequency of 33.3% among Amharas in Semino et al. 2004. It spread later to North Africa in historic times (as identified by the motif YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22; Algerians 35.0%, Tunisians 31%), where it became something like a marker of the Arab expansion in the early medieval period. Haplogroup J1 may be found in as many as 20% of Egyptian males,[8] with the frequency of this haplogroup tending to be comparatively high in the south of the country. Arredi et al. report Haplogroup J, apart from Haplogroup J2, in 4 out of 44 men tested (9.1%) from a sample of Egyptians from the vicinity of Mansoura in northern Egypt, and 6/29 = 20.7% of a sample of Egyptians from the vicinity of Luxor in southern Egypt.
_______________________________


Looks like the first Arabs and Jews/Hebrews were not black.
Mike and folks like him need to stop stealing other folks identities.
Blacks have thier own and older identities.
The non-sense that blacks were the original hebrews/jews and arabs need to stop,even if there are/were some black arabs and jews,but of course like in any groups some would go ignore the info just like white nubian.

He knows full well nubians the original ones are not white even if a few modern ones are.


Has mike would say-
He-He-He
or
HA,HA,HA.
Info he ignores.

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Genetic studies done on modern Arabic-speakers or Arabians have little to do with the ancient and modern black populations that were the first people to call themselves "Arabs".

That is why bringing up genetics is irrelevant, especially when so few studies have been done on the authentic Arabs, i.e. black speakers of Qahtan dialects still occupying Arabia.

The question is who were these people related to and not who they mixed with and converted to Islam, Judaism or Christianity. Djehuti had a good point in that it shows they could have been Afro-Asiatic populations who are perhaps closely related to Arab populations of Sudan and who may have contributed their genetic material to other NON-BLACK inhabitants of Levant or southern Asia at some point in the late Holocene.

First and foremost, genetics done on a geographical basis is pointless, since the people occupying Arabia are historically documented as having come from Turkey, Persia, Africa and Syria in recent times - JUST LIKE IN EGYPT.

If the Egyptians, Arabians and Berbers were not black and kinky haired populations, the early writers from Syria, Persia and Rome. These people have long amalgamated with NON-black people and thus bringing up geographically
and linguistically-based genetic studies about modern populations of these people IS POINTLESS.

We know that the name refers only to a certain group of semitic speakers that were originally only referred to as black BY SYRIANS that includes the BLACK Nabataeans before they spread THEIR BLACK DIALECT now called ARAMAEAN to Lebanon and Syria. That includes the BLACK Kedar or QIDAR from which they sprang originally and who overran North Arabia. They include the still black SUlaymiyyan Howeitat who call themselves descendants of the BLACK NABATAEANS.
That includes the still black QAHTAN or Sabaean tribes of Maddhij, Tayyi, Mahra in modern ARABIA to whom were closely related Kahlan, Azd, Murad, Ruwalla, Ans, Hamdan and Abs before they spread to northern Arabia and Syria and Iraq where they were swamped in NON- ARAB, NON-BLACK populations who now consider themselves "ARABS".

I would like anyone to try and prove that a single Arab tribe today calling themselves "ARAB" was not originally derived from the above named people, or that the original of any Arab tribe named in a Central Asian text was not originally referred to as black.

We know that the Sabaean civilization was occupied by BLACKS both in Arabia and Africa due to the skeletal evidence and only influenced in late times by Sassanid mercahants around the coasts. That doesn't mean ARABS of the Sabaean people were affiliated with Central Asians or any other non-Arab stock.

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Edited-

The early J AND EARLY J1 one speakers were black,that's true,but other later J1 speakers WERE NOT,JUST like the early I dna SPEAKERS were black and europe before whites came about but later I DNA FOLKS WERE NOT BLACK BUT WHITE EUROPEANS.

So whites inherited these early dna lineages like J,J1 and I and the dna mutated and theses later subclades FOR Haplogroup I-M170 AND LIKE SECOND J1 and later Mutations/SUBCLADES could be trace back to theses whites,simple.
So EURO-ASIAN whites and blacks are both J1,IT'S JUST ABOUT FINDING OUT WHO J1 BELONGS TO WHO.

Early dna J1 and J could be still found in THE native population in arabia however,i do not if it's the same for early I.


Black never called themselves arabs.
Nabataeans were not black the origianal folks were and you have mention there name above.
Qahtan are not arabs.They were in arabia before arabs.
Sabaean civilization was not arab,it was arabian but not arab,it's like saying ancient egypt was arab just because it's arab today.
Dna does not lie,and arabs and hewbrews are cousins,and were original not black and were white invaders of these original black lands.
Some of the native population became apart of the these invading arabs.
Some of the blacks of arabia were some of the first to become arabized.


Dna does not lie,the dna proof is all over place and the info is above and i am clear now what going on then i was before so i disagree with your post,but you are entertaining sometimes.
[Smile]

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^^ Of relevance.

 -
 -
From Ethiopian Genetic Diversity Reveals Linguistic Stratification and Complex Influences

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

TreeMix: Who were the West Eurasian ancestors of Ethiopians?
By Razib Khan | December 2, 2012 5:46 pm
One of the primary concerns/questions I had about Luca Pagani’s paper on the genetic origin of Ethiopians is that he found that their West Eurasian ancestor was closer to Levantine than Arabian. I was confused by this because on model-based clustering (e.g., Admixture) when you push down to a fine level of granularity you always see that the Ethiopians cluster with the Yemenis for their non-African ancestry. More precisely, Yemeni Jews are often ~100% component X, which ~50% of the ancestry of Ethiopians.




From what I recall Pagani et al. used haplotype windows which they assigned to Eurasian or African ancestral components, and they compared these to the populations related to the putative ancestral groups. Because Pagani et al. used blocks of the genome, rather than just on specific genotypes, I weight their finding more strongly. But I wanted to double check with TreeMix if the finding in Admixture was peculiar.

So again, I took a ~150,000 SNP set ran it on TreeMix with migration = 5.

 -

Again, you see that the gene flow to the Ethiopians is coming from a position on the tree rather close to Yemenite Jews. One model which may explain this, and still align with Pagani’s findings, is that Arabians themselves are a synthetic population. A “pure” Yemenite Jew may have ancient admixture of African affinity beneath an intrusive element from the north. The parallelism between Ethiopia and Arabia in this model is clear, with the major difference being magnitude of the source population admixture (greater in Arabia), as well as some differences of the target population.

This again reiterates us to be careful of trust first-blush summaries.
_____________________________________________________________
 -
 -

quote:
Djehuti wrote:

^^ One of those rare occasions you break free of your Eurocentrism to make sense, lioness. [Embarrassed]

Fact 1. Gene-flow between Ethiopia/Eritrea and Yemen is prehistoric and goes back to OOA times. Thus, even "pure" Yemenites themselves may carry and often do carry African ancestry.

Fact 2. The specific gene or allele-- SLC24A5--is stated by Pagani et al. themselves as not even being native to Yemen but deriving from further north in the Levant. Thus, no surprise the most pristine Yemenis who have little to no admixture are outright black in appearance.

Fact 3. The presence of SLC24A5 in Ethiopia is dated only to at most 1,000 BCE. This is relatively late for ancient Ethiopian history. No doubt many Euronuts will use this as proof that the original Ethio-Semitic speakers were light-skinned folks from the north, however the Geez language and script originated around 2,000 BCE prior to the entry of this gene and even the South Semites of Yemen were dark/black as described by Classical writers and noted from my previous paragraph above.

All the evidence thus far demonstrates that there was a wave or migration from the north i.e. the Levant down through Arabia into Yemen that reached into Africa however such a migration took place well after the advent of South Semitic in Yemen let alone Ethio-Semitic in Ethiopia.

The point is Arabia was NOT 'all black' at least by 1,000 BCE. As lioness pointed out, there was already synthesis of different populations--some indigenous others not.
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Right.
Oh and i added a few more things in my above post.

And edited-
So about 46% of nile sudanese nubians have outside white admixture,if you add the other nubians in sudan that admixture goes down to around less the 20% or something like that.

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your point is not made anywhere, especially supporting lying _SS!.lol!

You are expressing speculative opinion. We know that the Syrians called Central Arabia and southern Arabia SUDAN! And that the ARABS themselves were most definitely BLACK in the sense that other "Ethiopians" were. Whether there were white Syrians in Arabia it looks as if they were early on absorbed into the predominant black or "Sudanic:" populations as evidenced by the longer kinky hair that the blacks had there from an early period.

BTW - please be aware that there are also Jews in Yemen and Hadramaut that look like Ethiopians, i.e. the original populations were not populations with Syrian or Persian admixture that you posted. Like other populations the Jewish Arabian population has been inundated with diluted strains (so-to speak) since the Babylonian period.

 -

 -


Yes gene flow between Yemen and the Horn goes back to ancient times because we know that during the neolithicn and early Bronze they were a single population and culture, and remained that way until the late Sabean period when they began trading with the Iranic non-black

people that had also intruded into Persia in a rather LATE PERIOD.

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I still largely disagree with and you mixing some facts with incorrect info but anyway everything i had to say i said already above.

The first arabs and hebrews were just not black.


The facts and dna info speak for themselves above and even Djehuti just posted the info recently here and lioness before.

Oh,and yes the first folks in persia were black,that does not mean the original ethnic persians were black because the native folks there never called themselves persians even if the later lived in country called persia later because of white invaders.

So there is nothing left for me to say here but i may come back maybe from time to time because this thread is sometimes entertaining.
Peace. [Smile] [Cool]

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quote:
Originally posted by Firewall:
I still largely disagree with and you mixing some facts with incorrect info but anyway everything i had to say i said already above.

The first arabs and hebrews were just not black.


The facts and dna info speak for themselves above and even Djehuti just posted the info recently here and lioness before.

Oh,and yes the first folks in persia were black,that does not mean persians were black.

So there is nothing left for me to say here but i may come back maybe from time to time because this thread is sometimes entertaining.
Peace. [Smile] [Cool]

First off the dna says no more than it does about the origin of the Berbers. All the dna shows is that modern populations are mixed between Syrians and Arabs i.e. indigenous blacks and that Et6hiopians who once lived in Arabia have had some influx or contact with these non-balck populations either within Africa or before they settled back there.

Finally. the Arabs and Hebrews were and are STILL black and for the most part remain under their ancient HEBREW and ARAB names as shown in my afroasiatics.blogpot.

Sorry for the inconvenience. [Big Grin] [Wink]

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I disagree,but your fun and a good sport.Has king would say peace.
[Big Grin] [Smile]

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in the DOCUMENTED histories, until 1400 AD the area of Hijaz was said to be occupied mainly by blacks and fair skinwas "rare" and "a slave attribute". The Nejd (Central Arabia extending to southern Syria) was considered an extension of Bilad as Sudan, like the Yemen. CASE CLOSED!

And Yeah, I am fun! Thats documented as well !

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quote:
Originally posted by Firewall:
Right.
Oh and i added a few more things in my above post.

And edited-
So about 46% of nile sudanese nubians have outside white admixture,if you add the other nubians in sudan that admixture goes down to around less the 20% or something like that.

OK and edited - so do 98 percent of the Negroes in America so what does that make them. [Smile]
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quote:
Originally posted by Firewall:

Right.
Oh and i added a few more things in my above post.

And edited-
So about 46% of nile sudanese nubians have outside white admixture,if you add the other nubians in sudan that admixture goes down to around less the 20% or something like that.

And what exactly do you mean by "white" admixture?? The only white admixture I'm aware of come from Albanians and Circassians from the Ottoman period and this is very small, the vast majority of Nubians are highly endogamous only marrying their own cousins!

quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

your point is not made anywhere, especially supporting lying _SS!.lol!

You are expressing speculative opinion. We know that the Syrians called Central Arabia and southern Arabia SUDAN! And that the ARABS themselves were most definitely BLACK in the sense that other "Ethiopians" were. Whether there were white Syrians in Arabia it looks as if they were early on absorbed into the predominant black or "Sudanic:" populations as evidenced by the longer kinky hair that the blacks had there from an early period.

BTW - please be aware that there are also Jews in Yemen and Hadramaut that look like Ethiopians, i.e. the original populations were not populations with Syrian or Persian admixture that you posted. Like other populations the Jewish Arabian population has been inundated with diluted strains (so-to speak) since the Babylonian period.

 -

 -


Yes gene flow between Yemen and the Horn goes back to ancient times because we know that during the neolithicn and early Bronze they were a single population and culture, and remained that way until the late Sabean period when they began trading with the Iranic non-black

people that had also intruded into Persia in a rather LATE PERIOD.

My point is not based on Lioness' claims so much as the DATA upon which her claims are based!
There is no getting around it. The genetic data shows genes associated with light-skinned folks from the north present in Ethiopia by at least 1,000 BCE.
According to the study, the source lies in the Levant. Therefore Arabia was NOT "all black" as you claim but already had a presence of non-black foreigners. Yes the Sabaeans and other Qahtani tribes were black and perhaps so too were other tribes like the Qedar and Nabateans who indeed were described as black, but that does not change the fact that there were non-black peoples present in Arabia as well!

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quote:
Originally posted by Firewall:
Edited-

The early J AND EARLY J1 one speakers were black,that's true,but other later J1 speakers WERE NOT,JUST like the early I dna SPEAKERS were black and europe before whites came about but later I DNA FOLKS WERE NOT BLACK BUT WHITE EUROPEANS.

So whites inherited these early dna lineages like J,J1 and I and the dna mutated and theses later subclades FOR Haplogroup I-M170 AND LIKE SECOND J1 and later Mutations/SUBCLADES could be trace back to theses whites,simple.
So EURO-ASIAN whites and blacks are both J1,IT'S JUST ABOUT FINDING OUT WHO J1 BELONGS TO WHO.

Early dna J1 and J could be still found in THE native population in arabia however,i do not if it's the same for early I.


Black never called themselves arabs.
Nabataeans were not black the origianal folks were and you have mention there name above.
Qahtan are not arabs.They were in arabia before arabs.
Sabaean civilization was not arab,it was arabian but not arab,it's like saying ancient egypt was arab just because it's arab today.
Dna does not lie,and arabs and hewbrews are cousins,and were original not black and were white invaders of these original black lands.
Some of the native population became apart of the these invading arabs.
Some of the blacks of arabia were some of the first to become arabized.


Dna does not lie,the dna proof is all over place and the info is above and i am clear now what going on then i was before so i disagree with your post,but you are entertaining sometimes.
[Smile]

Lol! stop editing and adding BS and you won't have this problem of me responding.

Syrians considered Nabit to mean black because the original Nabataeans were from Qidar (Khudayr) the northern Sulaym Hawazin group that had settled northward of Arabia in the early Islamic era.


Dna doesn't lie - but you do. Blacks not only called themselves Arabs but said that being a fair-skinned Arab was rarer than "a 7th wonder of the world". (Ibn Abd Rabihu Unique Necklace quoting the Maddhij judge.) Shows they also had a sense of humour. Their descendants in south Arabia are called Qahtan who WERE the Arab al Arabiyya. It is obvious you know as little about history as you do about interpreting genetics. BTW - the original Qahtan (Joktan/Peleg) were the Hebrews children of Abir (Eber).

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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^^ Of relevance.

 -
 -
From Ethiopian Genetic Diversity Reveals Linguistic Stratification and Complex Influences

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

TreeMix: Who were the West Eurasian ancestors of Ethiopians?
By Razib Khan | December 2, 2012 5:46 pm
One of the primary concerns/questions I had about Luca Pagani’s paper on the genetic origin of Ethiopians is that he found that their West Eurasian ancestor was closer to Levantine than Arabian. I was confused by this because on model-based clustering (e.g., Admixture) when you push down to a fine level of granularity you always see that the Ethiopians cluster with the Yemenis for their non-African ancestry. More precisely, Yemeni Jews are often ~100% component X, which ~50% of the ancestry of Ethiopians.




From what I recall Pagani et al. used haplotype windows which they assigned to Eurasian or African ancestral components, and they compared these to the populations related to the putative ancestral groups. Because Pagani et al. used blocks of the genome, rather than just on specific genotypes, I weight their finding more strongly. But I wanted to double check with TreeMix if the finding in Admixture was peculiar.

So again, I took a ~150,000 SNP set ran it on TreeMix with migration = 5.

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Again, you see that the gene flow to the Ethiopians is coming from a position on the tree rather close to Yemenite Jews. One model which may explain this, and still align with Pagani’s findings, is that Arabians themselves are a synthetic population. A “pure” Yemenite Jew may have ancient admixture of African affinity beneath an intrusive element from the north. The parallelism between Ethiopia and Arabia in this model is clear, with the major difference being magnitude of the source population admixture (greater in Arabia), as well as some differences of the target population.

This again reiterates us to be careful of trust first-blush summaries.
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Djehuti wrote:

^^ One of those rare occasions you break free of your Eurocentrism to make sense, lioness. [Embarrassed]

Fact 1. Gene-flow between Ethiopia/Eritrea and Yemen is prehistoric and goes back to OOA times. Thus, even "pure" Yemenites themselves may carry and often do carry African ancestry.

Fact 2. The specific gene or allele-- SLC24A5--is stated by Pagani et al. themselves as not even being native to Yemen but deriving from further north in the Levant. Thus, no surprise the most pristine Yemenis who have little to no admixture are outright black in appearance.

Fact 3. The presence of SLC24A5 in Ethiopia is dated only to at most 1,000 BCE. This is relatively late for ancient Ethiopian history. No doubt many Euronuts will use this as proof that the original Ethio-Semitic speakers were light-skinned folks from the north, however the Geez language and script originated around 2,000 BCE prior to the entry of this gene and even the South Semites of Yemen were dark/black as described by Classical writers and noted from my previous paragraph above.

All the evidence thus far demonstrates that there was a wave or migration from the north i.e. the Levant down through Arabia into Yemen that reached into Africa however such a migration took place well after the advent of South Semitic in Yemen let alone Ethio-Semitic in Ethiopia.

The point is Arabia was NOT 'all black' at least by 1,000 BCE. As lioness pointed out, there was already synthesis of different populations--some indigenous others not.

I must have missed something Djehuti What genes confirm that by 1000 BC Ethiopians got Levant genes from fair skinned Arabian people. You will have to explain this matter to me matter of factly. [Smile]

AS I am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that genetics have shown Ethiopians and Ancient Egyptians and FULANI, NUBIANS, Beja and other BLACKS have had intermixture of some sort with Levant people FAR EARLIER THAN THIS.


That doesn't mean there was a population of nay significance of white ARABS in Arabia. Sorry if I am missing something here.

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