posted
^^^ Mike, that is an albino made map from National Geoliar. and we are dealing with haplogroup R1 look iinto it
besides this map you put up shows that the first Europeans came from Central Asia, look at the arrows
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: .
R1 the dominant paternal lineage of Western Europe originates in Africa
WHERE IS THIS MAP FROM?
From the six dunced-down secret agents using the Lionese handle to clown around on Egypt Search...
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The route is wrong, first the Africans that became Europeans went to India, then to Central Asia, and THEN to Europe.
Didn't the Egyptians say that they came from the south?
This map is ridiculous as well and has an agenda. I guess that the ancient Egyptians really were "middle easterners".
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The route is wrong, first the Africans that became Europeans went to India, then to Central Asia, and THEN to Europe.
Didn't the Egyptians say that they came from the south?
This map is ridiculous as well and has an agenda. I guess that the ancient Egyptians really were "middle easterners".
You don't understand the map. It's an Out of Africa map for the peopling of Eurasia in early prehistoric times. The path that goes into North Africa is still not intended to show inside Africa population migrations into Egypt. It is not supposed to be a comprehensive depiction of the peopling of Egypt it is only one part
Internal migrations are not covered in a map entiled "Out of Africa peopling of Eurasia" The internal migrations shown, Nigeria Chad, Kenya are only shown to show primary sources for the out population that went into Eurasia. Most of the internal migrations inside Africa far before any people left Africa are not shown, this is na Out of Africa map Don't get it twisted
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posted
Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] Where is the NG link? It should be interesting reading.
The questioned map does not appear on the NG link. Since there is no citation given it appears bogus- off "Lioness" ephotobay gallery.. But if not, someone go ahead and do a cite..
geeskee55 says: Didn't the Egyptians say that they came from the south?
This map is ridiculous as well and has an agenda. I guess that the ancient Egyptians really were "middle easterners".
Indeed. The map appears to treat Egypt as part of "Eurasia" rather than Africa as far as the highlighted movement shown readers..
However the following map is also in the ACTUAL study though not shown on the National Geographic site. It gives a fuller picture..
Iron Lion says: From the six dunced-down secret agents using the Lionese handle to clown around on Egypt Search...
^^Lion its curious that National Geographic left out the original map, or highlighted routes/pathways from the study that includes some movement from the south into Egypt... Nor did lioness post it either...
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
If Western academia Out of Africa origin of humanity is true then the world population is African and derive from African people.
Western Academia world history contradict Western Academia Out of Africa origin of humanity. According to Western Academia Egypt wasn't a black civilization, there was no black civilizations in Europe, West Asia, India, China. If the Out of Africa science is true Egypt was a black civilization and Europe, Asia and America had black civilizations until the middle age time for some continent and renaissance era for other.
Central Asian white Goths and slavs invasion of Eastern and Western Europe and the Mongol and Turk invasion of China, India and West Asia changed the dark skin color and phenotype of the people of those area.
African people have black, brown and yellow skin color. African people have pepper corn, curly and soft hair. You can find all the world phenotypes in Africa.
posted
you guys keep looking at these maps as the population within Africa when they are describing out of Africa migrations on the in African migrations only pertaining to which exit is taken either through the sinai Egypt (green line ) or Bab-el-Mandeb strait (blue line) (out of Djibouti/Ethiopia region into Yemen/Arabia.) So instead of a paranoid conspiracy the green Nat Geo map Mike put up they are showing the conclusion of the below Mele et al study that the Out of Africa migrations when into Arabia (Yemen) not into Egypt and across the Sinai as traditionally thought. Therefore in et Nat Geo article they left out the blue line hypothesis and rendered the conclusion of the study. They left in the purple and changed it to the same green color because the purple was common to both theories Once again this study has to do with the populating of Eurasia and the migrations preceding it not migrations in general of various African regions.
Also note when you look at the green map Mike put up also of the lines in various directions out of Africa are of different time periods. they don't all branche at the same time If you look at many of them there are dates like 30ky, 60kya but the one that comes form the Levant and goes back into Africa, into Northern Africa is much later under 10-12,000 years ago. So for instance, people in Austrailia had been there perhaps as much as 50,000 years before that Levant to North Africa migration occured
Recombination Gives a New Insight in the Effective Population Size and the History of the Old World Human Populations Marta Melé1,
Abstract
The information left by recombination in our genomes can be used to make inferences on our recent evolutionary history. Specifically, the number of past recombination events in a population sample is a function of its effective population size (Ne). We have applied a method, Identifying Recombination in Sequences (IRiS), to detect specific past recombination events in 30 Old World populations to infer their Ne. We have found that sub-Saharan African populations have an Ne that is approximately four times greater than those of non-African populations and that outside of Africa, South Asian populations had the largest Ne. We also observe that the patterns of recombinational diversity of these populations correlate with distance out of Africa if that distance is measured along a path crossing South Arabia. No such correlation is found through a Sinai route, suggesting that anatomically modern humans first left Africa through the Bab-el-Mandeb strait rather than through present Egypt.
FIG. 1. Map of the Old World with the samples of the present study. The two tested routes out of Africa are marked:
a route through the North of Egypt in blue and a South Arabian route in green. Wherever the two lines overlap, colors are added up. In purple, the putative path followed by sub-Saharan African populations. The X symbol marks a presumable origin (or a later stage) of AMH in Addis Ababa and the two locations in which AMH are forced to go through in their way out of Africa for each of the two possible routes (present Egypt or Iran).
In order to assess how much more robust the South Arabian route was compared with the Northern Egypt route, we performed a bootstrap analysis in which the populations used in the correlation were randomly sampled with replacement. Our results showed that 95.24% of the times, the South Arabian route had higher r2 values than the North Egypt route.Posts: 42939 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Internal migrations are not covered in a map entiled "Out of Africa peopling of Eurasia" The internal migrations shown, Nigeria Chad, Kenya are only shown to show primary sources for the out population that went into Eurasia. Most of the internal migrations inside Africa far before any people left Africa are not shown, this is na Out of Africa map Don't get it twisted
Please use some simple logic here. So why is there any migrations internal to Africa shown. Either you show all or show none. And movements into Southern Africa.
Plus that so-called "back migration" into North Africa is just bogus. DNA analysis does not bear this out regarding movements into Africa pre-pharaonic times. The Hyksos, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs,Turks, French, etc. moved in during only very recent archaeological times.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Internal migrations are not covered in a map entiled "Out of Africa peopling of Eurasia" The internal migrations shown, Nigeria Chad, Kenya are only shown to show primary sources for the out population that went into Eurasia. Most of the internal migrations inside Africa far before any people left Africa are not shown, this is na Out of Africa map Don't get it twisted
Please use some simple logic here. So why is there any migrations internal to Africa shown. Either you show all or show none.
This is your rule "either you show all or none" However they were not going by your rule they were showing source population within Africa that then when out of Africa which is additionally informative. These remarks about internal migrations are a straw dog, red herring. We are dealing with what happened as womankind with men following did after they left the motherland keep in mind Mike posted the map as a rebuttal to the map I posted
quote:Originally posted by lamin:
Plus that so-called "back migration" into North Africa is just bogus. DNA analysis does not bear this out regarding movements into Africa pre-pharaonic times. The Hyksos, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs,Turks, French, etc. moved in during only very recent archaeological times.
Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations Brenna M. Henn equal contributor
We identify a gradient of likely autochthonous Maghrebi ancestry that increases from east to west across northern Africa; this ancestry is likely derived from “back-to-Africa” gene flow more than 12,000 years ago [ya], prior to the Holocene.
The indigenous North African ancestry may have been more common in Berber populations and appears most closely related to populations outside of Africa, but divergence between Maghrebi peoples and Near Eastern/Europeans likely precedes the Holocene [>12,000 ya]. We also find significant signatures of sub-Saharan African ancestry that vary substantially among populations. These sub-Saharan ancestries appear to be a recent introduction into North African populations, dating to about 1,200 years ago in southern Morocco and about 750 years ago into Egypt, possibly reflecting the patterns of the trans-Saharan slave trade that occurred during this period.
Although these divergence time estimates may not be precise, as they do not adequately model ancient migration, they do suggest that the population divergence between the ancestral Maghrebi population and neighboring Mediterranean populations occurred at least 12,000 ya and indeed more likely predated even the Last Glacial Maximum.
we first showed that all North African populations are estimated to have diverged from OOA groups more than 12,000 ya [Figure 3]. After accounting for putative recent admixture [Figure 1], the indigenous Maghrebi component [k-based] is estimated to have diverged from Near Eastern/Europeans between 18–38 Kya [Figure 3], under a range of Ne and k values. We hence suggest that the ancestral Maghrebi population separated from Near Eastern/Europeans prior to the Holocene, and that the Maghrebi populations do not represent a large-scale demic diffusion of agropastoralists from the Near East.
__________________________________
There is also a new 2013 article also including Brenna Henn which demonstrates gene flow also flowed in the other direction as well, from North Africa into Europe
Gene flow from North Africa contributes to differential human genetic diversity in southern Europe. 2013
posted
Lol. look at everybody scramble. Super thirsty for a link. How on earth can a sublineage that is only 7kya be ancestral to all other R1b?
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posted
Why this constant reference to a research tyro like Henn. It's laughable. The predominant haplogroups in North Africa are J1 and E1b1b. And R or I or J2?
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Internal migrations are not covered in a map entiled "Out of Africa peopling of Eurasia" The internal migrations shown, Nigeria Chad, Kenya are only shown to show primary sources for the out population that went into Eurasia. Most of the internal migrations inside Africa far before any people left Africa are not shown, this is na Out of Africa map Don't get it twisted
Please use some simple logic here. So why is there any migrations internal to Africa shown. Either you show all or show none.
This is your rule "either you show all or none" However they were not going by your rule they were showing source population within Africa that then when out of Africa which is additionally informative. These remarks about internal migrations are a straw dog, red herring. We are dealing with what happened as womankind with men following did after they left the motherland keep in mind Mike posted the map as a rebuttal to the map I posted
quote:Originally posted by lamin:
Plus that so-called "back migration" into North Africa is just bogus. DNA analysis does not bear this out regarding movements into Africa pre-pharaonic times. The Hyksos, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs,Turks, French, etc. moved in during only very recent archaeological times.
Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations Brenna M. Henn equal contributor
We identify a gradient of likely autochthonous Maghrebi ancestry that increases from east to west across northern Africa; this ancestry is likely derived from “back-to-Africa” gene flow more than 12,000 years ago [ya], prior to the Holocene.
The indigenous North African ancestry may have been more common in Berber populations and appears most closely related to populations outside of Africa, but divergence between Maghrebi peoples and Near Eastern/Europeans likely precedes the Holocene [>12,000 ya]. We also find significant signatures of sub-Saharan African ancestry that vary substantially among populations. These sub-Saharan ancestries appear to be a recent introduction into North African populations, dating to about 1,200 years ago in southern Morocco and about 750 years ago into Egypt, possibly reflecting the patterns of the trans-Saharan slave trade that occurred during this period.
Although these divergence time estimates may not be precise, as they do not adequately model ancient migration, they do suggest that the population divergence between the ancestral Maghrebi population and neighboring Mediterranean populations occurred at least 12,000 ya and indeed more likely predated even the Last Glacial Maximum.
we first showed that all North African populations are estimated to have diverged from OOA groups more than 12,000 ya [Figure 3]. After accounting for putative recent admixture [Figure 1], the indigenous Maghrebi component [k-based] is estimated to have diverged from Near Eastern/Europeans between 18–38 Kya [Figure 3], under a range of Ne and k values. We hence suggest that the ancestral Maghrebi population separated from Near Eastern/Europeans prior to the Holocene, and that the Maghrebi populations do not represent a large-scale demic diffusion of agropastoralists from the Near East.
__________________________________
There is also a new 2013 article also including Brenna Henn which demonstrates gene flow also flowed in the other direction as well, from North Africa into Europe
Gene flow from North Africa contributes to differential human genetic diversity in southern Europe. 2013
This North Africans back migration proposition is a joke. The Henn et al paper supports Diop's research that the Berbers recently came from Arabia and Europe.
The problem with all of these papers is the idea that contemporary Berbers represent the original Black North Africans when we know they are not .
In a new article on the R1 clade, The genetic landscape of Equatorial Guinea and the origin and migration routes of the Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88 Gonzalez et al, argue that R1 probably spread across Europe from Iberia to the east given the distribution of R1 in Africa.
In my paper POSSIBLE AFRICAN ORIGIN OF Y-CHROMOSOME R1-M173:here ;
I argue that the P clade originated in Africa because 1) the age of R-V88 and 2) the widespread nature of R1 in Africa. Researchers have found that the TMRCA of V88 was
9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010). Eurasians carry the M269 (R1b1b2) mutation. The subclades of R1b1b2 include Rh1b1b2g (U106) (TMRCA 8.3kya) and R1b1b2h (U152) (TMRCA 7.4kya). The most recent common ancestor for R1b1b2 in Europe is probably 8kya (Balaresque et al, 2010). Y-Chromosome R1b1b2 has high frequencies in England, France, Italy and Germany (Balaresque et al, 2010). Clearly, R-V88 is older than R-M269 .
The new article by Gonzalez et al adds further support to my theory. The researchers propose that the R haplogroup did not spread from East Africa.
Article
European Journal of Human Genetics advance online publication 15 August 2012; doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2012.167
The genetic landscape of Equatorial Guinea and the origin and migration routes of the Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88
Advance online publication 15 August 2012 Abstract
Human Y chromosomes belonging to the haplogroup R1b1-P25, although very common in Europe, are usually rare in Africa. However, recently published studies have reported high frequencies of this haplogroup in the central-western region of the African continent and proposed that this represents a ‘back-to-Africa’ migration during prehistoric times. To obtain a deeper insight into the history of these lineages, we characterised the paternal genetic background of a population in Equatorial Guinea, a Central-West African country located near the region in which the highest frequencies of the R1b1 haplogroup in Africa have been found to date. In our sample, the large majority (78.6%) of the sequences belong to subclades in haplogroup E, which are the most frequent in Bantu groups. However, the frequency of the R1b1 haplogroup in our sample (17.0%) was higher than that previously observed for the majority of the African continent. Of these R1b1 samples, nine are defined by the V88 marker, which was recently discovered in Africa. As high microsatellite variance was found inside this haplogroup in Central-West Africa and a decrease in this variance was observed towards Northeast Africa, our findings do not support the previously hypothesised movement of Chadic-speaking people from the North across the Sahara as the explanation for these R1b1 lineages in Central-West Africa. The present findings are also compatible with an origin of the V88-derived allele in the Central-West Africa, and its presence in North Africa may be better explained as the result of a migration from the south during the mid-Holocene.
Keywords:
Central-West Africa; Equatorial Guinea; human male lineages; Y chromosome; haplogroup R-V88; back to Africa hypothesis
The Gonzalez et al article is further proof of the African origin for y-chromosome R1’ The researchers found that 10 out of 19 subjects in the study carried R1b1-P25 or M269. This is highly significant because it indicates that 53% of the R1 carriers were M269. the finding is further proof of the widespread nature of this so-called Eurasian genes in Africa among populations that have not mated with Europeans.
Gonzalez et al proposes a West to East spread for P-25, with a possible entry of this clade via Gibraltar.
.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
lamin said: Plus that so-called "back migration" into North Africa is just bogus. DNA analysis does not bear this out regarding movements into Africa pre-pharaonic times. The Hyksos, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs,Turks, French, etc. moved in during only very recent archaeological times
^^Correct if in reference to sweeping claims of massive inflowing migration and assorted "Hamites" etc.. But Egypt has always had interchange with elsewhere such as Palestine- whether it be small numbers of merchants, traders, nomads or even war captives Pre-pharonic times. These were relatively small and had limited overall impact on the core founding population of indigenous Africans.
Later on as you say- there was the coming of Hyskos, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Persians, Arabs etc etc
posted
@Dr Winters. I am leaning in that direction but I need more proof. I thought the map of OP would get into it instead of the off-topic Henn back-migration nonsense. That is why I asked about supporting writeup.
We have beaten Henn to death.
BTW where does Gonzalez speculate about P25 spread through Iberia. Paper? Also R in Ethiopia? Female?
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: lamin said: Plus that so-called "back migration" into North Africa is just bogus. DNA analysis does not bear this out regarding movements into Africa pre-pharaonic times. The Hyksos, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs,Turks, French, etc. moved in during only very recent archaeological times
^^Correct if in reference to sweeping claims of massive inflowing migration and assorted "Hamites" etc.. But Egypt has always had interchange with elsewhere such as Palestine- whether it be small numbers of merchants, traders, nomads or even war captives Pre-pharonic times. These were relatively small and had limited overall impact on the core founding population of indigenous Africans.
Later on as you say- there was the coming of Hyskos, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Persians, Arabs etc etc
SKEWED SAMPLING OF HENN ET AL..
^^^The sampling is not skewed, over 95% of the population of the Maghreb lives in the coastal region and has for a few thousand years. So their analysis applies to over 95% of the populaltion. Your remarks about relatively small numbers of merchants into Egypt are irrelevant, the topic is the whole of North Africa 12,000 years ago, a back migration that occured and it's not contradictory to the orange section of your graphic which mentioned L lineages which were also a part of the ancestry and that article is 2010 prior to the Henn article. The point is further supported by this map you posted:
^^^ this is an out of Africa map considering two models, blue = out of North Egypt across sinai, green = out of Ethiopian region into Arabia. The authors concluded that green = out of Ethiopian region into Arabia was the more likely exit point. One of the later migrations in the map coming out of that is a back migration across North Africa. The green line on the map going across North Africa is preceeded by Egypt and Kuwait (marked KUW)
Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations Brenna M. Henn equal contributor
quote:Originally posted by lamin
Why this constant reference to a research tyro like Henn. It's laughable. The predominant haplogroups in North Africa are J1 and E1b1b. And R or I or J2?
This remark show you aren't aware that Haplogroup H has much higher frequency in the Maghreb than J, you didn't even mention H or U
The Complex and Diversified Mitochondrial Gene Pool of Berber Populations
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @Dr Winters. I am leaning in that direction but I need more proof. I thought the map of OP would get into it instead of the off-topic Henn back-migration nonsense. That is why I asked about supporting writeup.
We have beaten Henn to death.
BTW where does Gonzalez speculate about P25 spread through Iberia. Paper? Also R in Ethiopia? Female?
We discussed the paper last year:
Gonzalez et al., The genetic landscape of Equatorial Guinea and the origin and migration routes of the Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88.
European Journal of Human Genetics advance online publication 15 August 2012; doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2012.167
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posted
I thought Lioness was presenting new data. Yes. Gonzalez concluded FROM central AFRICA to North Africa and not the reverse. Map looks like Lioness's kindergarten drawing....
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Europeans are a product of wave after wave of Africans. I don't think Sforzaa? Got it right.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] Where is the NG link? It should be interesting reading.
The questioned map does not appear on the NG link. Since there is no citation given it appears bogus- off "Lioness" ephotobay gallery.. But if not, someone go ahead and do a cite..
geeskee55 says: Didn't the Egyptians say that they came from the south?
This map is ridiculous as well and has an agenda. I guess that the ancient Egyptians really were "middle easterners".
Indeed. The map appears to treat Egypt as part of "Eurasia" rather than Africa as far as the highlighted movement shown readers..
However the following map is also in the ACTUAL study though not shown on the National Geographic site. It gives a fuller picture..
Iron Lion says: From the six dunced-down secret agents using the Lionese handle to clown around on Egypt Search...
^^Lion its curious that National Geographic left out the original map, or highlighted routes/pathways from the study that includes some movement from the south into Egypt... Nor did lioness post it either...
Yes I. The Lionese gang are liars and plagiarists. The six of them are either plagiarizing or trying to mock the sound research of scholars who have now debunked the theory of the "Euro-Asiatic" nature of R1B.
Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:Originally posted by IronLion: Yes I. The Lionese gang are liars and plagiarists. The six of them are either plagiarizing or trying to mock the sound research of scholars who have now debunked the theory of the "Euro-Asiatic" nature of R1B. [/QB]
which scholars say R1 originates in Africa ?
Also what plagiarizing are you talking about? In this thread I named four articles with proper sources, who wrote them
Posts: 42939 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Many people due to miseducation and feelings of inferiority parrot the Euronut mantra that Diop was wrong about most things because he wrote his major work in the 1950’s and 1960’s. These people are very wrong. They don’t understand that knowledge building is based upon science, and science is based upon hypothesis testing. As a result, good science involves researcher either confirming or disconfirming a hypothesis. Diop hypothesized that the Berbers and Moors who live in North Africa came from Europe and or Yemen, and therefore had mostly a European and Yemeni heritage.
His theories are set forth in his major work: The African Origin of Civilization . Below are the pages from his book that outline this theory. . .
.
.
. .
The Henn et al paper is confirmation of Diop’s hypothesis on the Yemeni and European ancestry of the Berbers and Moors. Granted, there is no way that Berbers were in Africa 12kya, but it is clear from Henn et al, that the genomic evidence Berber populations appears most closely related to populations outside of Africa, but divergence between Maghrebi peoples and Near Eastern (Yemenis) and Europeans. Let’s not forget that it was Diop who maintained that the Berbers and Moors were of European and Yemeni heritage.
This indicates that when good hypothesis are made, based on scientific fact they usually have a tendency to be replicated frequently.
The Complex and Diversified Mitochondrial Gene Pool of Berber Populations
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Many people due to miseducation and feelings of inferiority parrot the Euronut mantra that Diop was wrong about most things because he wrote his major work in the 1950’s and 1960’s. These people are very wrong. They don’t understand that knowledge building is based upon science, and science is based upon hypothesis testing. As a result, good science involves researcher either confirming or disconfirming a hypothesis. Diop hypothesized that the Berbers and Moors who live in North Africa came from Europe and or Yemen, and therefore had mostly a European and Yemeni heritage.
His theories are set forth in his major work: The African Origin of Civilization . Below are the pages from his book that outline this theory.
The Henn et al paper is confirmation of Diop’s hypothesis on the Yemeni and European ancestry of the Berbers and Moors. Granted, there is no way that Berbers were in Africa 12kya, but it is clear from Henn et al, that the genomic evidence Berber populations appears most closely related to populations outside of Africa, but divergence between Maghrebi peoples and Near Eastern (Yemenis) and Europeans. Let’s not forget that it was Diop who maintained that the Berbers and Moors were of European and Yemeni heritage. This indicates that when good hypothesis are made, based on scientific fact they usually have a tendency to be replicated frequently.
.
But often you hear people on Egyptsearch say that saying berbers are most closely related to populations outside of Africa is Euronutty Are you saying that they have missapplied the term Euronut here? and that the reverse is actually true?
xyyman for instance, says that Tunisian berbers, some of whom have Maghrebian M81 ancestry (aka "the berber gene") upward of 90% frequency are primarily African
Posts: 42939 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Many people due to miseducation and feelings of inferiority parrot the Euronut mantra that Diop was wrong about most things because he wrote his major work in the 1950’s and 1960’s. These people are very wrong. They don’t understand that knowledge building is based upon science, and science is based upon hypothesis testing. As a result, good science involves researcher either confirming or disconfirming a hypothesis. Diop hypothesized that the Berbers and Moors who live in North Africa came from Europe and or Yemen, and therefore had mostly a European and Yemeni heritage.
His theories are set forth in his major work: The African Origin of Civilization . Below are the pages from his book that outline this theory.
The Henn et al paper is confirmation of Diop’s hypothesis on the Yemeni and European ancestry of the Berbers and Moors. Granted, there is no way that Berbers were in Africa 12kya, but it is clear from Henn et al, that the genomic evidence Berber populations appears most closely related to populations outside of Africa, but divergence between Maghrebi peoples and Near Eastern (Yemenis) and Europeans. Let’s not forget that it was Diop who maintained that the Berbers and Moors were of European and Yemeni heritage. This indicates that when good hypothesis are made, based on scientific fact they usually have a tendency to be replicated frequently.
.
But often you hear people on Egyptsearch say that saying berbers are most closely related to populations outside of Africa is Euronutty Are you syaing that they have missapplied the term Euronut here? and that the reverse is actually true?
xyyman for instance, says that Tunisian berbers, some of whom have Maghrebian M81 ancestry (aka "the berber gene") upward of 90% frequency are primarily African
.
. I have stated clearly what I mean. Diop was right that the Berbers and Moors are mainly of European and Yemeni origin as confirmed by Henn et al. .
.
I am discussing the confirmation of Diop's Hypothesis on Berber origins, and that they were not ancient Egyptians.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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The Henn et al paper is confirmation of Diop’s hypothesis on the Yemeni and European ancestry of the Berbers and Moors. Granted, there is no way that Berbers were in Africa 12kya, but it is clear from Henn et al, that the genomic evidence Berber populations appears most closely related to populations outside of Africa, but divergence between Maghrebi peoples and Near Eastern (Yemenis) and Europeans. Let’s not forget that it was Diop who maintained that the Berbers and Moors were of European and Yemeni heritage. This indicates that when good hypothesis are made, based on scientific fact they usually have a tendency to be replicated frequently.
So therefore I assume you would agree that at the bottom of the chart halogroups listed as "European" are "European" except R1. correct?
Also this is just the mtDNA side
Also the left groups on the chart Asni, Bouria, Figuig, Souss are Moroccan that is outside of the Vandal territoty map you showed
Now getting back to R1
So if R1 the dominant paternal lineage of Western Europe originates in Africa then the Europeans are more African than the berbers becuase look at the low frquencies of R in the above chart for berbers, too low to even produce a number in some cases. So the Cameroonians and Chadians went right through and past North Africa and establised early Europe
Posts: 42939 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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The Henn et al paper is confirmation of Diop’s hypothesis on the Yemeni and European ancestry of the Berbers and Moors. Granted, there is no way that Berbers were in Africa 12kya, but it is clear from Henn et al, that the genomic evidence Berber populations appears most closely related to populations outside of Africa, but divergence between Maghrebi peoples and Near Eastern (Yemenis) and Europeans. Let’s not forget that it was Diop who maintained that the Berbers and Moors were of European and Yemeni heritage. This indicates that when good hypothesis are made, based on scientific fact they usually have a tendency to be replicated frequently.
So therefore I assume you would agree that at the bottom of the chart halogroups listed as "European" are "European" except R1. correct?
Also this is just the mtDNA side
Also the left groups on the chart Asni, Bouria, Figuig, Souss are Moroccan that is outside of the Vandal territoty map you showed
No I would not agree with all of these haplogroups being of European origin. Right now, I will make it clear that y-haplogroup R1, and mtDNA M and N are not of European origin. In addition, there have been movements of Berbers outside the original Vandel area.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Now getting back to R1
So if R1 the dominant paternal lineage of Western Europe originates in Africa then the Europeans are more African than the berbers becuase look at the low frquencies of R in the above chart for berbers, too low to even produce a number in some cases. So the Cameroonians and Chadians went right through and past North Africa and establised early Europe
All people are of African origin because Africans were the original home of mankind. So Europeans are just as African as Asians.
The carriers of R1, did not go pass North Africa, many of the original Africans in N.A. were absorbed by invading Europeans. The Africans carrying R1, would have invaded Europe from the East via Central Asia and the Black Sea region, also Kushite in Italy would also played a role in spreading R1.
The major reason for the high levels of R1 in Europe, is that when the Indo-Europeans made their way into Europe the majority of European farmers would have been the result of waves of Africans invading Europe after the Great flood replacing the Anu, who formerly dominated the area.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Henn et al paper is confirmation of Diop’s hypothesis on the Yemeni and European ancestry of the Berbers and Moors. Granted, there is no way that Berbers were in Africa 12kya, but it is clear from Henn et al, that the genomic evidence Berber populations appears most closely related to populations outside of Africa, but divergence between Maghrebi peoples and Near Eastern (Yemenis) and Europeans. Let’s not forget that it was Diop who maintained that the Berbers and Moors were of European and Yemeni heritage. This indicates that when good hypothesis are made, based on scientific fact they usually have a tendency to be replicated frequently....
No I would not agree with all of these haplogroups being European. Right now, I will make it clear that y-haplogroup R1, and mtDNA M and N are not of European origin. In addition, there have been movements of Berbers outside the original Vandel area.
If you are saying berbers are primarily of ancestry outside of Africa which haplogroups show that ? [/QB]
posted
So where is the skeletal evidence? What evidence is there of blacks in prehistoric Europe? Sure a few African wanderers walked in, but where is the evidence of some large migration or settlement? Sorry but no physical data supports it, and this stuff is just crazy. I would presume Sub-Saharan Africans settlers would take with them prehistoric or ancient tools and so forth, however those are also conveniently absent...
Posts: 63 | From: Carlos coke is gay | Registered: Sep 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Henn et al paper is confirmation of Diop’s hypothesis on the Yemeni and European ancestry of the Berbers and Moors. Granted, there is no way that Berbers were in Africa 12kya, but it is clear from Henn et al, that the genomic evidence Berber populations appears most closely related to populations outside of Africa, but divergence between Maghrebi peoples and Near Eastern (Yemenis) and Europeans. Let’s not forget that it was Diop who maintained that the Berbers and Moors were of European and Yemeni heritage. This indicates that when good hypothesis are made, based on scientific fact they usually have a tendency to be replicated frequently....
No I would not agree with all of these haplogroups being European. Right now, I will make it clear that y-haplogroup R1, and mtDNA M and N are not of European origin. In addition, there have been movements of Berbers outside the original Vandel area.
If you are saying berbers are primarily of ancestry outside of Africa which haplogroups show that ?
[/QB]
The haplogroups which show their European orgin would be the haplogroups commonly associated with European populations, of course.
My proposition is that although they are associated with Europeans today their origin was in Africa ; and that these same haplogroups H,J, R1, M1, N and etc., now associated with Europeans, did not re-enter Africa as the result of a back-migration.
quote:Originally posted by Amur: So where is the skeletal evidence? What evidence is there of blacks in prehistoric Europe? Sure a few African wanderers walked in, but where is the evidence of some large migration or settlement? Sorry but no physical data supports it, and this stuff is just crazy. I would presume Sub-Saharan Africans settlers would take with them prehistoric or ancient tools and so forth, however those are also conveniently absent...
early Central Asian who went across lower Russia into Northern Europe
This clay sculpture portrays the face of the earliest known modern European - a man or woman who hunted deer and gathered fruit and herbs in ancient forests more than 35,000 years ago. It was created by Richard Neave; one of Britain's leading forensic scientists, using fossilized fragments of skull and jawbone found in a cave seven years ago. His recreation offers a tantalizing glimpse into life before the dawn of civilization. It also shows the close links between the first European settlers and their immediate African ancestors. It was made for the BBC2 series The Incredible Human Journey. This will follow the evolution of humans from the cradle of Africa to the waves of migrations that saw Homo sapiens colonize the globe.
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quote:Originally posted by Amur: So where is the skeletal evidence? What evidence is there of blacks in prehistoric Europe? Sure a few African wanderers walked in, but where is the evidence of some large migration or settlement? Sorry but no physical data supports it, and this stuff is just crazy. I would presume Sub-Saharan Africans settlers would take with them prehistoric or ancient tools and so forth, however those are also conveniently absent...
Below the face of the First European or Cro-Magnon Man
The Aurignacian civilization was founded by the Cro-Magnon people who originated in Africa. They took this culture to Western Europe across the Straits of Gibraltar. The Cro-Magnon people were probably Bushman/Khoi. . . There have been numerous "Negroid skeletons" found in Europe. Marcellin Boule and Henri Vallois, in Fossil Man, provide an entire chapter on the Africans/Negroes of Europe Anta Diop also discussed the Negroes of Europe in Civilization or Barbarism, pp.25-68. Also W.E. B. DuBois, discussed these Negroes in the The World and Africa, pp.86-89. DuBois noted that "There was once a an "uninterrupted belt' of Negro culture from Central Europe to South Africa" (p.88).
Boule and Vallois, note that "To sum up, in the most ancient skeletons from the Grotte des Enfants we have a human type which is readily comparable to modern types and especially to the Negritic or Negroid type" (p.289). They continue, "Two Neolithic individuals from Chamblandes in Switzerland are Negroid not only as regards their skulls but also in the proportions of their limbs. Several Ligurian and Lombard tombs of the Metal Ages have also yielded evidences of a Negroid element.
Since the publication of Verneau's memoir, discoveries of other Negroid skeletons in Neolithic levels in Illyria and the Balkans have been announced. The prehistoric statues, dating from the Copper Age, from Sultan Selo in Bulgaria are also thought to protray Negroids.
In 1928 Rene Bailly found in one of the caverns of Moniat, near Dinant in Belgium, a human skeleton of whose age it is difficult to be certain, but seems definitely prehistoric. It is remarkable for its Negroid characters, which give it a reseblance to the skeletons from both Grimaldi and Asselar (p.291).
Boule and Vallois, note that "We know now that the ethnography of South African tribes presents many striking similarities with the ethnography of our populations of the Reindeer Age. Not to speak of their stone implements which, as we shall see later , exhibit great similarities, Peringuey has told us that in certain burials on the South African coast 'associated with the Aurignacian or Solutrean type industry...."(p.318-319). They add, that in relation to Bushman art " This almost uninterrupted series leads us to regard the African continent as a centre of important migrations which at certain times may have played a great part in the stocking of Southern Europe. Finally, we must not forget that the Grimaldi Negroid skeletons sho many points of resemblance with the Bushman skeletons". They bear no less a resemblance to that of the fossil Man discovered at Asslar in mid-Sahara, whose characters led us to class him with the Hottentot-Bushman group.
The Boule and Vallois research makes it clear that the Bushman expanded across Africa on into Europe via Spain as the Grimaldi people.
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Henn et al paper is confirmation of Diop’s hypothesis on the Yemeni and European ancestry of the Berbers and Moors. Granted, there is no way that Berbers were in Africa 12kya, but it is clear from Henn et al, that the genomic evidence Berber populations appears most closely related to populations outside of Africa, but divergence between Maghrebi peoples and Near Eastern (Yemenis) and Europeans. Let’s not forget that it was Diop who maintained that the Berbers and Moors were of European and Yemeni heritage. This indicates that when good hypothesis are made, based on scientific fact they usually have a tendency to be replicated frequently....
No I would not agree with all of these haplogroups being European. Right now, I will make it clear that y-haplogroup R1, and mtDNA M and N are not of European origin. In addition, there have been movements of Berbers outside the original Vandel area.
If you are saying berbers are primarily of ancestry outside of Africa which haplogroups show that ?
The haplogroups which show their European orgin would be the haplogroups commonly associated with European populations, of course.
My proposition is that although they are associated with Europeans today their origin was in Africa ; and that these same haplogroups H,J, R1, M1, N and etc., now associated with Europeans, did not re-enter Africa as the result of a back-migration.
. [/QB]
You said the berbers were primarily of origin outside of Africa
So are you also saying that since all haplgoups are African that you can't tell by DNA that the berbers are primarily of origin outside of Africa?
Posts: 42939 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Henn et al paper is confirmation of Diop’s hypothesis on the Yemeni and European ancestry of the Berbers and Moors. Granted, there is no way that Berbers were in Africa 12kya, but it is clear from Henn et al, that the genomic evidence Berber populations appears most closely related to populations outside of Africa, but divergence between Maghrebi peoples and Near Eastern (Yemenis) and Europeans. Let’s not forget that it was Diop who maintained that the Berbers and Moors were of European and Yemeni heritage. This indicates that when good hypothesis are made, based on scientific fact they usually have a tendency to be replicated frequently....
No I would not agree with all of these haplogroups being European. Right now, I will make it clear that y-haplogroup R1, and mtDNA M and N are not of European origin. In addition, there have been movements of Berbers outside the original Vandel area.
If you are saying berbers are primarily of ancestry outside of Africa which haplogroups show that ?
The haplogroups which show their European orgin would be the haplogroups commonly associated with European populations, of course.
My proposition is that although they are associated with Europeans today their origin was in Africa ; and that these same haplogroups H,J, R1, M1, N and etc., now associated with Europeans, did not re-enter Africa as the result of a back-migration.
.
You said the berbers were primarily of origin outside of Africa
So are you also saying that since all haplgoups are African that you can't tell by DNA that the berbers are primarily of origin outside of Africa? [/QB]
No. I am very explicit in what I said. I said that scientist have assigned a number of haplogroups as evidence of European ancestry, that were originally carried to Europe by Africans. As a result, since the Berbers carry haplogroups assigned to Europeans today, these haplogroups betry their European origin.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: You said the berbers were primarily of origin outside of Africa
So are you also saying that since all haplgoups are African that you can't tell by DNA that the berbers are primarily of origin outside of Africa?
No. I am very explicit in what I said. I said that scientist have assigned a number of haplogroups as evidence of European ancestry, that were originally carried to Europe by Africans. As a result, since the Berbers carry haplogroups assigned to Europeans today, these haplogroups betry their European origin.
.
If you look at Africa there are various haplogroups that formed at different times.
Did some haplogroups from outside of Africa?
based on African parent hgs but had transformed to the extent that you can distiguish them from African haplogoups? If you had various different haplogroups forming inside Africa which could be distinguished form one another than a haplgroups could formed outside of Africa and can be distinguished from African haplogroups
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Below the face of the First European or Cro-Magnon Man
[/quote]
This reconstruction is not remotely accurate.
For starters look at the wide nose, but the actual skull is described as "fairly narrow" in the original report. Here's an actual photo:
Looks nothing like the reconstruction.
The skin colour is also wrong. Europeans were already light skinned in Upper Palaeolithic times, see Beleze et al. 2012.
quote: There have been numerous "Negroid skeletons" found in Europe. Marcellin Boule and Henri Vallois, in Fossil Man, provide an entire chapter on the Africans/Negroes of Europe Anta Diop also discussed the Negroes of Europe in Civilization or Barbarism, pp.25-68.
Horribly outdated. Boule also claimed the French Chancelade skeleton was an "Eskimoid". At that time there was a lot of strange stuff being written.
quote:Boule and Vallois, note that "To sum up, in the most ancient skeletons from the Grotte des Enfants we have a human type which is readily comparable to modern types and especially to the Negritic or Negroid type" (p.289).
The Grimaldi skulls were badly damaged. When reconstructed properly, they don't look "Negroid". No physical anthropologist today uses the distorted state of the skulls. It was in fact Eurocentrics who invented the "Grimaldi Negro" theory because men like Boule were arguing Homo sapiens originated in Europe and all the races branched off white people...
Posts: 63 | From: Carlos coke is gay | Registered: Sep 2012
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