posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Amur:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Amur:
My ancestry is Kabyle/French.

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what is the primary ancestral background of the Kabyle?
where do they begin?

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That will make a good topic and I will make a thread some time maybe. Of course there's been population movements and mixture in the region, however the Kaybles trace back to the Capsian, a pre-neolithic culture. The Arabization among the Kabyles was mainly a religion process rather than biological, as opposed to other Berber groups. This has long been known, and the Kabyles have been considered some sort of "pure race" having resisted assimilation. IMO the "blonde kabyle" stuff you read on certain webforums is greatly exaggerated, however those sort of features do appear more frequently than in other North Africans. Still though they are rare. While some easily pass as southern European or "white", most in general, as in my family, look "3/4 white". However this is probably what the Capsians looked like and they weren't mixed, here's an example of a Kabyle girl:




I've seen on this forum this sort of phenotype called "mulatto", however it isn't with most Kabyles. [/QB]

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The problem is there is a 1000 or more gap between the end of the Capsian, last of the green period hunter gathers and any evidence of human settlement up to around 1000 BC.
So the Capsian people may have left the region entirely and until proven otherwize the Maghreb was uninabited for over 1000 years. A simlar thing happened in another place, after the Mesopotamian Ubaid culture which was extended into Arabia there was a similar period of what seems to be nothing happening on the Arabian penninsula.
It is possible that nobody in the Magheb has deep roots, that the berbers are combination of people from outside and inside Africa indigenous Africans coming from the south.

Taking it back further before the Capsians, Swenet had argued that the Iberomaurusian were originally Eurasian

please put up ypur favorite history of the Kabyle source text

Kabyle women and child in Algeria.
1800s

Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

________________________________________

However below is a picture marked Kabyle in the caption. It says Ourilah = la Kabyle. I don't know what Ourilah means (our God? - doesn't seem right)
Anyway there are some similarities to the girl above but also significant differences. I'm not sure if because she is odd looking we can assume this must be the original Kabyle. If it were a sub saharan African mixed with an Indian, that might not be right but it could be believable in terms of looks and nomadic people covering a wide range integregrated a lot of people from different places.
Some suggest Austrailoid I suppose becuase of her hair but I don't see it. Most of the Austrailan aborginees have broader faces, this woman's face is quite long.


_______________________

Below another berber woman, a little similar to the woman above
yet of a type that looks like no other person I've seen before. Could it be a descndant of the Capsian or Iberomaurusian. All I can say is she does not look like other Africans to me - or anyone else.

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
All this talk of the prehistoric presence of anatomically modern humans in North Africa and specifically the Maghreb remind me of certain populations in the area some of which are relatively isolated who exhibit robust cranio-facial features ...

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If you can get the book

Imazighen: The Vanishing Traditions of Berber Women
Margaret Courtney-Clarke; Geraldine Brooks
New York: C. Potter, 1996

it's got at least one pic of an
archaic admixed looking woman in
the mountain fastnesses. I've never
seen the type anywhere else in print
or the 'net. It's either overlooked
(intentionally ?) or it's very rare.

It's one of the books of my now
lost personal library. I'll try and
find it and scan the relevant pics.

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OK here it is (finally)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Amur:
I will get back to you in detail on this when I get the time. I would also like to show some anthropological sources.

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posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Aren't the Kabyle a recent Berber group?

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Aren't the Kabyle a recent Berber group?

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What do you mean by recent?

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Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Son of Ra:

quote:

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Aren't the Kabyle a recent Berber group?

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What do you mean by recent?

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I keep hearing that after the Moorish were expelled from Iberia, that's when you start to see Kabyle Berbers. I know the early Kabyle were depicted as brown to nearly black. I'm just saying I heard them and the Rif Berbers are more recent while Berbers like the Tuareg and Sanhaja are much older.

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http://www.second-congress-matriarchal-studies.com/grasshoff.html




Makilam is a Kabyle, a historian and a PhD. She was raised in a village of the Djurdjura, (a region of northern Algeria) until she was seventeen, and has since lived in Europe. She has always remained very close to her roots, and her testimony, interspersed with personal experiences, sheds completely new light on the rituals and myths of this vanishing society.



her books



__________________________________________________

^^^ somebody could say, being a Kabyle is why she claims kabyle are the oldest berber group in NA.

I'm having trouble finding good infor on the origins of the Kabyle. It could be that no one really knows. Also they have integrated a lot of people of differnt ethnic groups into their tribes.

Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Son of Ra:

quote:

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Aren't the Kabyle a recent Berber group?

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What do you mean by recent?

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I keep hearing that after the Moorish were expelled from Iberia, that's when you start to see Kabyle Berbers. I know the early Kabyle were depicted as brown to nearly black. I'm just saying I heard them and the Rif Berbers are more recent while Berbers like the Tuareg and Sanhaja are much older.

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http://www.second-congress-matriarchal-studies.com/grasshoff.html




Makilam is a Kabyle, a historian and a PhD. She was raised in a village of the Djurdjura, (a region of northern Algeria) until she was seventeen, and has since lived in Europe. She has always remained very close to her roots, and her testimony, interspersed with personal experiences, sheds completely new light on the rituals and myths of this vanishing society.




a lot of people of differnt ethnic groups into their tribes.

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Hmmm, can you explain why her surname is German? And what is meant by, "the oldest"? What are we talking about"? Can you give a time stamp, a date?


As I wrote before, assimilation doesn't make someone indigenous.


Or, do I need to repost certain studies again?

quote:

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Most studies of European genetic diversity have focused on large-scale variation and interpretations based on events in prehistory, but migrations and invasions in historical times could also have had profound effects on the genetic landscape.The geographical distribution of North African ancestry in the peninsula does not reflect the initial colonization and subsequent withdrawal and is likely to result from later enforced population movement—more marked in some regions than in others—plus the effects of genetic drift.

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quote:

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The established population of the Iberian Peninsula prior to 711 CE has been estimated at 7–8 million people, ruled by about 200,000 Germanic Visigoths,19 who had entered from the north in the sixth century. Though the initial invading North African force was between 10,000 and 15,000 strong, the scale of subsequent migration and settlement is uncertain, with some claiming numbers in the hundreds of thousands. 20 Islamization of the populace after the invasion was certainly rapid, but it has been argued that this reflects an exponential social process of religious conversion rather than a substantial immigration;21 a sizeable proportion of the indigenous population (the so-called Mozarabs) was allowed to retain its Christian practices, as a result of the religious tolerance of the Muslim rulers.22 There is also doubt about the extent of intermarriage between indigenous people and settlers in the early phase.20 After the overthrow of Islamic rule in most of the peninsula, a period of tolerant coexistence (convivencia) ensued in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, but after 1492 (1496 in Portugal), religious intolerance forced Spanish Muslims to either convert to Christianity (as so-called moriscos) or leave.23 After the fifteenth century, moriscos were relocated across Spain on occasion, and, finally, during 1609–1616, over 200,000 were expelled, mostly from Valencia.

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
wikipedia

Kabyle people

Genetics and physical anthropology

Y-Dna haplogroups, passed on exclusively through the paternal line, were found at the following frequencies in Kabylie:

E1b1b1b (E-M81) (47.36%), (aka E3)

R1*(xR1a) (15.78%) (later tested as R1b3/R-M269 (now R1b1a2)[11]),

J1 (15.78%),

F*(xH, I, J2,K) ( 10.52% )

E1b1b1c (E-M123) (10.52%).[12]

The North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation (including both E1b1b and J haplogroups) is largely of Semitic origin.[13]

___________________________________________________

MtDNA Haplogroups, inherited only from the mother, were found at the following frequencies:

H (32.23%), found throughout Europe;

U* (29.03% with 17.74% U6), common to North Africa; preHV (3.23%),

preV (4.84%), V (4.84%),

T* (3.23%), J* (3.23%), L1 (3.23%), L3e (4.84%), X (3.23%), M1 (3.23%), N (1.61%) and R (3.23%).


11. Adams et al. 2008, The genetic legacy of religious diversity and intolerance: paternal lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula

12 Arredi B, Poloni ES, Paracchini S, Zerjal T, Fathallah DM, Makrelouf M, Pascali VL, Novelletto A, Tyler-Smith C. (2004). "A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa". Am J Hum Genet. 75 (2): 338–345. doi:10.1086/423147. PMC 1216069. PMID 15202071.

13. Elizabeth Caldwell Hirschman and Donald Neal Yates. When Scotland Was Jewish: DNA Evidence, Archeology, Analysis of Migrations ... (quot: Haplogroup J is found at highest

_______________________________________________________

xyyman ....

________________________________________________

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Aren't the Kabyle a recent Berber group?

---

What do you mean by recent?

---

I keep hearing that after the Moorish were expelled from Iberia, that's when you start to see Kabyle Berbers. I know the early Kabyle were depicted as brown to nearly black. I'm just saying I heard them and the Rif Berbers are more recent while Berbers like the Tuareg and Sanhaja are much older.

---

http://www.second-congress-matriarchal-studies.com/grasshoff.html




Makilam is a Kabyle, a historian and a PhD. She was raised in a village of the Djurdjura, (a region of northern Algeria) until she was seventeen, and has since lived in Europe. She has always remained very close to her roots, and her testimony, interspersed with personal experiences, sheds completely new light on the rituals and myths of this vanishing society.



her books



__________________________________________________

^^^ somebody could say, being a Kabyle is why she claims kabyle are the oldest berber group in NA.

I'm having trouble finding good infor on the origins of the Kabyle. It could be that no one really knows. Also they have integrated a lot of people of differnt ethnic groups into their tribes.

---

lol...I'm sorry but the Kabyle are not the oldest known group of North Africa. Where did she even get that from? Is there any historic records that even mention the Kabyle? Heres are some problems:

1. She just states North Africa in general...There are many groups in North Africa from Northern Sudan all the way to Morocco and older than the Kabyle.

2. She doesn't cite evidence or explain in full detail how their the oldest group. IIRC Tuaregs are the oldest group of Northwest Africa. Since...IIRC they have the oldest Berber langauge, but not only that they use the Ancient Garamante script.

3. She like other modern day Berbers seen to try and make the white looking ones indignous, when again there is no proof.

4. Like I said again the white looking Kabyles are a recent group. Just look at the clothing.
Kabyle:


People from Balkans:

Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by typeZeiss:
I have read from a peer reviewed article that one of the two groups known as Harratins are considered to be aboriginal group of North Africa. When I get home, IF i remember I will post the name of that article.

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quote:

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: one of an Upper Paleolithic people of northern Africa closely related to Cro-Magnon man but having a broader nose, a sloping forehead, and heavy brow ridges

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quote:

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The extremely large skeletal samples that come from sites such as Taforalt (Fig. 8.13) and Afalou constitute an invaluable resource for understanding the makers of Iberomaurusian artifacts, and their number is unparalleled elsewhere in Africa for the early Holocene. Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin, though attempts, such as those of Ferembach (1985), to establish similarities with much older and rarer Aterian skeletal remains are tenuous given the immense temporal separation between the two (Close and Wendorf 1990). At the opposite end of the chronological spectrum, dental morphology does suggest connections with later Africans, including those responsible for the Capsian Industry (Irish 2000) and early mid-Holocene human remains from the western half of the Sahara (Dutour 1989), something that points to the Maghreb as one of the regions from which people recolonised the desert (MacDonald 1998).

Turning to what can be learned about cultural practices and disease, the individuals from Taforalt, the largest sample by far, display little evidence of trauma, though they do suggest a high incidence of infant mortality, with evidence for dental caries, arthritis, and rheumatism among other degenerative conditions. Interestingly, Taforalt also provides one of the oldest known instances of the practice of trepanation, the surgical removal of a portion of the cranium; the patient evidently survived for some time, as there are signs of bone regrowth in the affected area. Another form of body modification was much more widespread and, indeed, a distinctive feature of the Iberomaurusian skeletal sample as a whole. This was the practice of removing two or more of the upper incisors, usually around puberty and from both males and females, something that probably served as both a rite of passage and an ethnic marker (Close and Wendorf 1990), just as it does in parts of sub-Saharan Africa today (e.g., van Reenen 1987). Cranial and postcranial malformations are also apparent and may indicate pronounced endogamy at a much more localised level (Hadjouis 2002), perhaps supported by the degree of variability between different site samples noted by Irish (2000).

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quote:

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Craniometric data from seven human groups (Tables 3, 4) were subjected to principal components analysis, which allies the early Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-e) with mid-Holocene “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania [18], [26], [27] and with Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and early Holocene Capsians from across the Maghreb (see cluster in Figure 6). The striking similarity between these seven human populations confirms previous suggestions regarding their affinity [18] and is particularly significant given their temporal range (Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene) and trans-Saharan geographic distribution (across the Maghreb to the southern Sahara).

[...]

Trans-Saharan craniometry. Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero, who were buried with Kiffian material culture, with Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene humans from the Maghreb and southern Sahara referred to as Iberomaurusians, Capsians and “Mechtoids.” Outliers to this cluster of populations include an older Aterian sample and the mid-Holocene occupants at Gobero associated with Tenerean material culture.

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Craniometric data from seven human groups (Tables 3, 4) were subjected to principal components analysis, which allies the early Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-e) with mid-Holocene “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania [18], [26], [27] and with Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and early Holocene Capsians from across the Maghreb




Figure 6. Principal components analysis of craniofacial dimensions among Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.





Table 3. Nine human populations sampled for craniometric analysis ranging in age from the Late Pleistocene (ca. 80,000 BP, Aterian) to the mid-Holocene (ca. 4000 BP) and in geographic distribution across the Maghreb to the southern Sahara [18], [19], [26], [27], [54].
doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0002995.t003

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Even if archaeological and paleoanthropological records testify to the ancient (Paleolithic) human occupation of North Africa, the evolution of human groups living in that area is still unclear. This is mainly due to the large number of successive prehistoric and historic events that occurred in that area after the arrival of the first modern humans. In North Africa, the presence of Berbers – a term to denote those populations which speak a Berber language (Camps 1980) – is well described since the Capsian (10,000–4700 years ago), although this industry derived from oldest cultures. Nevertheless, it was only during the Neolithic transition (around 6000 years ago in the Saharan areas and 5000 years ago in the Maghreb) that North Africa was incontestably marked by various cultural events. Then, Berbers experienced a long and complicated history with many invasions, conquests and migrations by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals and Byzantines (Brett & Fentress 1996). The most significant event was the Arab conquest, begun during the 7th century, when North Africans were converted to Islam, and Arabic became the official unique language employed. In spite of strong resistance, Berbers acquiesced to Arab authority.


Refractory groups were driven out and constrained to more isolated areas. This troubled past directly influenced the geographical distribution of Berber communities which are nowadays scattered in a vast region extending from Mauritania to Egypt (Siwa oasis) and from the Sahara desert to the Moroccan Atlas mountainous areas. Over the course of time, the various populations that migrated to North Africa have probably left a footprint in the gene pool of modern Berbers.

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
wikipedia

Kabyle people

Genetics and physical anthropology

Y-Dna haplogroups, passed on exclusively through the paternal line, were found at the following frequencies in Kabylie:

E1b1b1b (E-M81) (47.36%), (aka E3)

R1*(xR1a) (15.78%) (later tested as R1b3/R-M269 (now R1b1a2)[11]),

J1 (15.78%),

F*(xH, I, J2,K) ( 10.52% )

E1b1b1c (E-M123) (10.52%).[12]

The North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation (including both E1b1b and J haplogroups) is largely of Semitic origin.[13]

___________________________________________________

MtDNA Haplogroups, inherited only from the mother, were found at the following frequencies:

H (32.23%), found throughout Europe;

U* (29.03% with 17.74% U6), common to North Africa; preHV (3.23%),

preV (4.84%), V (4.84%),

T* (3.23%), J* (3.23%), L1 (3.23%), L3e (4.84%), X (3.23%), M1 (3.23%), N (1.61%) and R (3.23%).


11. Adams et al. 2008, The genetic legacy of religious diversity and intolerance: paternal lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula

12 Arredi B, Poloni ES, Paracchini S, Zerjal T, Fathallah DM, Makrelouf M, Pascali VL, Novelletto A, Tyler-Smith C. (2004). "A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa". Am J Hum Genet. 75 (2): 338–345. doi:10.1086/423147. PMC 1216069. PMID 15202071.

13. Elizabeth Caldwell Hirschman and Donald Neal Yates. When Scotland Was Jewish: DNA Evidence, Archeology, Analysis of Migrations ... (quot: Haplogroup J is found at highest

_______________________________________________________

xyyman ....

________________________________________________

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A lot of those Hg's you can scratch off as European. Since these are fundamentally found in Africa.

And since you like to quote xyyMan, why don't you do it properly?

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I didn't quote xyyman at all. I put his name up because I thought he might have something to say about this.

As ususal and unlike other posters you put up some of the same charts that you have put up ten times before, people don't read what they have seen you post ten times before and it merely becomes visual spam in a thread.
Why don't you just use urls instead of posting the same charts you have poste over ten times before? Are you intentionally trying to disrupt the thread with repetition?

The Kabyle are an Alergian highland population of 5.5 million. This includes higher elevations in the Atlas mountains






At 6,575 feet the summits of Mount Babor in the Little Kabylie region are covered with snow for four or five months, while the Moroccan High Atlas retains its snows until the height of summer. Winter in the Atlas is hard, imposing severe conditions upon the inhabitants.-Britannica

Comparitively current populations in the Kilamanajro region, the Chage,Tanzania are believed to not have lived in the region that long and they live in the lowland areas which are tropical

.

If there was a deep rooted indigenous African population of the high Atlas region would be cold adapted rather than tropical


You said " A lot of those Hg's you can scratch off as European. Since these are fundamentally found in Africa"

Tell us which these are.

Even before scratching off anything they are 48% E3 (M81)
and ssuming that M81 is indigenous African and derived from an East African parent hg
this means all these people you have been saying don't look African, the average majority Kabyle person of today, are in fact primarily African and cold adapted


so any people who had actually been living in the mountainous regions, assuming people had lived there continously since prehistoric tiems
would be cold adapted and unlike other North African populations and might not comform to you saying somebody looks African somebody else does not.

And realize general info about North Africa doesn't apply to the unique climate that the Kabyle live in

Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
So any people who had actually been living in the mountainous regions, assuming people had lived there continously since prehistoric tiems
would be cold adapted and unlike other North African populations and might not comform to you saying somebody looks African somebody else does not.

And realize general info about North Africa doesn't apply to the unique climate that the Kabyle live in

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"COLD ADAPTED"

"UNIQUE CLIMATE"

Ha,ha,ha,ha:

DAMN YOU'RE STUPID!

But seriously, after I have just destroyed you decrepit Albinos nonsense about "Cold adapted" in another thread, you have the G.D. nerve to bring that sh1t up here just a few hours later???

Damn, every time I think that I have found an insult commensurate with the degeneracy of you Albinos, you prove to me that I'm not even close.


Anyway:

The Atlas Mountains is a mountain range across the northwestern stretch of Africa extending about 2,500 km (1,600 mi) through Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia. The highest peak is Toubkal, with an elevation of 4,167 metres (13,671 ft) in southwestern Morocco. The Atlas ranges separate the Mediterranean and Atlantic coastlines from the Sahara Desert. The population of the Atlas Mountains is mainly Berbers.

Morocco - High Atlas - Aghmat - Berber Market Day




Ya lioness, right away I could tell that these are unique "Cold Adapted" people.

As I always say:

Damn you're stupid!

Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Bilal Dogon -aka blingdogg:
But Lioness, how do you explain the pics that Son of Ra posted, showing how similar they look to Balkans people? And that the older Kabyle populations were described and shown as brown or nearly black?

I have no side in this argument, I"m just wonderin.

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look at the postcard photo


________________________________________


Now look at this:


^^^another photo late 1800s
It's hard to tell the complexion, it looks somewhat dark, The nose of the girl on the postcard looks significantly broader than the women below,

These photos are only around the turn of the 19th and 20th century.

If the Kabyle were primarily brown skinned and wide nosed writers prior to then would have been noting this.
European looking people did not all of the sudden show up in an obscure hard to live in mountainous region of North Africa in the early 1900s.
This stuff has to make sense historically, think about it.

How long have they lived in the upper elevations of the Atlas? Was it a long time or did they coem form lowlands but only went to the mountains to escape various foreign invaders? I don't know. So being cold adapted I'm not sure about it.
Another option is that no one had lived in the Atlas mountains until 800-1000 BC or more recently.
And either no one had ever lived there before that or that if people did it was for a period that stopped in prehistoric times without continuity to the present.

Look at the confusion in the argumentaion going on here. First people are saying the Kabyles were recent and at the same time they are straight haired "blacks"
-so them are they recent ??


I can't explain some of these appearance differences in the photos . If we look at these photos we don't know the exact location the people came from or even if it's Algeria or Morocco.
Were the people all brown skinned and borad nosed and Europeans all of the sudden popped up within the past 100 years and pretended they were them, a discrinianted against poor minority?
Doesn't make sense unless perhaps a significant European component going back as far as the Vandals in the 5th century.
Europeans, Truks and Arabs had already established presence in North Africa hundreds of years before that on better quality land

here's a section from the book of which I posted the photo and more photos:

Algerian memories; a bicycle tour over the Atlas to the Sahara.
by Fanny Bullock Workman (1859-1925) and William Hunter Workman (1847-1937).
London: T. Fisher Unwin, 1895.




The climate is like that of other interior high parts of Algeria, more rigorous than that of the coast. The villages and towns vary in altitude from eight to twelve hundred metres, and accordingly, a freezing temperature is often experienced in winter. Snow sometimes falls, though rain is most common to that season. The most delightful months, when the world below Djurjura is like a garden of Paradise, are April, May and June. By June, the noonday heat becomes oppressive, but the nights are cool, as they are said to be throughout the hot weather.

If their country is curious and unique, the Kabyles of the Djurjura, direct descendants of the Berbers, are no less interesting. As to whether these Berbers, one branch of whom conquered Spain, came from the Aborigines, who were of mixed races, or were lineal descendants of the Numidians, authorities differ. To those who have studied the variety of types in the Kabylie, where blue eyes and red hair, black eyes and swarthy skin, brown eyes and bronze red faces with almost Ethiopian features are seen, the former supposition seems most plausible.

These hardy mountaineers of the Djurjura, unlike the Kabyles of Morocco or southern Algeria, seem to have preserved the warrior spirit of the Berbers, and in their mountain fastnesses remained unconquered by Roman, Moor or Turk. They first appear in history as a race under the Romans, who invaded their country but gained no foothold. The Arabs, under the Khalifs, established themselves temporarily there. The influence of their presence is seen in the adoption, by the Kabyles, of the religion of Mohammed, so far as they adopted any creed, and in the language, which is a mixture of Arabic and old Lybian.

The term Kabyle, applied by the people to themselves, is derived from the Arabic word Qebaiel, meaning league or clique. This name symbolises one of the most marked characteristics of the people, who from early times have been divided into cliques or tribes, to which the first allegiance of the individual is given. The existence of a strongly clannish spirit, more than is usual in other tribes in North Africa, led to discord and constant warfare among themselves up to the time of the French occupation. Although the religion and customs are practically the same throughout the Kabyle race, yet they like to speak of these as having rather a tribal than a racial significance. For example, a member of the tribe of Beni Yenni, which to-day occupies three villages, being asked as to certain Kabyle customs, replied 'With us, at Beni Yenni, we do so and so.

Kayble Bride

Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Aren't the Kabyle a recent Berber group?

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Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike111:
Damn lioness, you get more pathetic by the day!

Answer Son of Ra's question you degenerate.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mike111:


Surprisingly, one of the new bastions of White lies and nonsense, Wikipedia: has one of the few somewhat accurate histories of the Kabyles.



Wikipedia

Kabyle people

...

Then late third century, the Geiserics also known as the Vandals, a Germanic Klan and sworn enemy of Rome, cornered in the Iberia (Spain) peninsula had to find a place and an ally to escape the Roman chase through the Gaul (France) and west-southwest. The snowy, cold and inaccessible highlands of Kabylia and its likewise enemy of Rome is thus a natural match. The population of the villages of the Highlands, also known as Djurdjura, suddenly doubled as no less than 80,000 Vandal warriors with wife and children, i.e. families, filled the villages of Kabylia. Whereas the military forts were set on the lowers peaks closest to the sea known as Lower Kabylia, around the modern Algerian province of Bejia (Vgayet in Kabyle), the residential quarters in the higher lands of the Dhurdjura, also known as Great Kabylia. Thus, began the dense population of Kabylia.

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Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
.

quote:

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Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Aren't the Kabyle a recent Berber group?

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.


so are you retracting this?


I just put up a quote previously

"To those who have studied the variety of types in the Kabylie, where blue eyes and red hair, black eyes and swarthy skin, brown eyes and bronze red faces with almost Ethiopian features are seen, the former supposition seems most plausible."
-1895

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Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Son of Ra:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
.

quote:

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Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Aren't the Kabyle a recent Berber group?

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.


so are you retracting this?


I just put up a quote previously

"To those who have studied the variety of types in the Kabylie, where blue eyes and red hair, black eyes and swarthy skin, brown eyes and bronze red faces with almost Ethiopian features are seen, the former supposition seems most plausible."
-1895

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And? Does that prove they are indigenous? Also read your quote again...

"To those who have studied the *variety of types in the Kabylie*, where blue eyes and red hair, black eyes and swarthy skin, brown eyes and bronze red faces with almost *Ethiopian features* are seen, the former supposition seems most plausible."

Ethiopians=black IIRC. Your source is only stating that there was a variety of Kabyle people. We already know that. My point is...Are the white looking ones indigenous/Ancient group. Which so far I've not seen any proof of this.

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there is no hard proof for anything I've said or you said,
also somebody broad nosed and dark skinned is not even necessarily deep rooted North African, they could have been SSA migrants at any point within several hundred years who admixed with others. Or they could be indigenous.




^^^ I already posted this in advance of what you posted.

I can't explain why she looks like this. She has straight hair what ethnic group in North Africa has straight hair like this? I'm not talking about posting random pictures of people that might have Indian admixture I'm talking about a namable tribe in North Africa. Did this particular woman live in high altitude mountain regions. I don't know.

Are some of the Kabyles descended from Germanic Vandals of the 5th century who invaded ?
If so it is many hundreds of years before these photos and paintings we are looking at.
And as I have shown many times before there is such thing as a "swarthy" European


this man might be some admixture. Its hard to tell but he may have been brown skinned

Again, Europeans and other foreigners had been in North Africa hundreds of years before the advent of photography

Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:


xyyman ....

________________________________________________ I didn't quote xyyman at all. I put his name up because I thought he might have something to say about this.

As ususal and unlike other posters you put up some of the same charts that you have put up ten times before, people don't read what they have seen you post ten times before and it merely becomes visual spam in a thread.
Why don't you just use urls instead of posting the same charts you have poste over ten times before? Are you intentionally trying to disrupt the thread with repetition?

The Kabyle are an Alergian highland population of 5.5 million. This includes higher elevations in the Atlas mountains






At 6,575 feet the summits of Mount Babor in the Little Kabylie region are covered with snow for four or five months, while the Moroccan High Atlas retains its snows until the height of summer. Winter in the Atlas is hard, imposing severe conditions upon the inhabitants.-Britannica

Comparitively current populations in the Kilamanajro region, the Chage,Tanzania are believed to not have lived in the region that long and they live in the lowland areas which are tropical

.

If there was a deep rooted indigenous African population of the high Atlas region would be cold adapted rather than tropical


You said " A lot of those Hg's you can scratch off as European. Since these are fundamentally found in Africa"

Tell us which these are.

Even before scratching off anything they are 48% E3 (M81)
and ssuming that M81 is indigenous African and derived from an East African parent hg
this means all these people you have been saying don't look African, the average majority Kabyle person of today, are in fact primarily African and cold adapted


so any people who had actually been living in the mountainous regions, assuming people had lived there continously since prehistoric tiems
would be cold adapted and unlike other North African populations and might not comform to you saying somebody looks African somebody else does not.

And realize general info about North Africa doesn't apply to the unique climate that the Kabyle live in

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
your posts were also off topic. the topic is Kabyles

you posted

BIOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE HUNTER-GATHERERS OF THE MAGHREB:

and

Holocene population at Gobero

_______________________________

further you did not even coonnect them to modern haratin with proof (should different thread topic - something you rarely do, make a thread)

why are you doing a pm with a bunch of charts you posted over ten times before to to typeZeiss in a thread about Kabyle?

He went somewhat off topic from Kabyle but it was only two sentences, no problem
your reply as usual a big post, info you have posted over ten times before, not even about the time perior being discussed- dry period sahara
as xyyman and Calbooz pointed out "knee jerk- information overload"

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
No dumbass, it's on topic.

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Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
No dumbass, it's on topic.

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do you know what the thread topic is or is the thread topic private messages to typezeiss?

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
you should start a new topic idiot instead of trying to sidetrack,

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quote:

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Evidence from throughout the Sahara indicates that the region experienced a cool, dry and windy climate during the last glacial period, followed by a wetter climate with the onset of the current interglacial, with humid conditions being fully established by around 10,000 years BP, when we see the first evidence of a reoccupation of parts of the central Sahara by hunter gathers, most likely originating from sub-Saharan Africa (Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 1998; Goudie, 1992; Phillipson, 1993; Ritchie, 1994; Roberts, 1998).


[...]


Conical tumuli, platform burials and a V-type monument represent structures similar to those found in other Saharan regions and associated with human burials, appearing in sixth millennium BP onwards in northeast Niger and southwest Libya (Sivilli, 2002). In the latter area a shift in emphasis from faunal to human burials, complete by the early fifth millennium BP, has been interpreted by Di Lernia and Manzi (2002) as being associated with a changes in social organisation that occurred at a time of increasing aridity. While further research is required in order to place the funerary monuments of Western Sahara in their chronological context, we can postulate a similar process as a hypothesis to be tested, based on the high density of burial sites recorded in the 2002 survey. Fig. 2: Megaliths associated with tumulus burial (to right of frame), north of Tifariti (Fig. 1). A monument consisting of sixty five stelae was also of great interest; precise alignments north and east, a division of the area covered into separate units, and a deliberate scattering of quartzite inside the structure, are suggestive of an astronomical function associated with funerary rituals. Stelae are also associated with a number of burial sites, again suggesting dual funerary and astronomical functions (Figure 2). Further similarities with other Saharan regions are evident in the rock art recorded in the study area, although local stylistic developments are also apparent. Carvings of wild fauna at the site of Sluguilla resemble the Tazina style found in Algeria, Libya and Morocco (Pichler and Rodrigue, 2003), although examples of elephant and rhinoceros in a naturalistic style reminiscent of engravings from the central Sahara believed to date from the early Holocene are also present.

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--Nick Brooks et al. (2004)

The prehistory of Western Sahara in a regional context: the archaeology of the "free zone"


Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research, Saharan Studies Programme and School of Environmental Sciences, University of East Anglia, Norwich, UK
Coauthors: Di Lernia, Savino ((Department of Scienze Storiche, Archeologiche, e Antropologiche dell’Antichità, Faculty of Human Sciences, University of Rome “La Sapienza”, Via Palestro 63, 00185 – Rome, Italy) and Drake, Nick (Department of Geography, King’s College, Strand, London WC2R 2LS).


The people of Sahara still look like this.





SOR, nice post btw.

quote:

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Originally posted by Son of Ra:
^^^Yet you still ignore the description of them. -__-

890 –“The Kabyles or Kabaily of Algerian and Tunisian territories…besides tillage, work the mines contained in their mountains…They live in huts made of branches of trees and covered with clay which resemble the Magalia of the old Numidians…They are of middle stature, their complexion brown and sometimes nearly black.” Written in The Encyclopedia Britannica: Dictionary of Arts, Sciences and General Literature Henry G. Allen Company p. 261 Volume I 1890.

And you've seem to have forgot this colored photo.

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by KING:
[QB] Blessings to all.

I am no fan of stifiling free speech.

BUT

Really the Hatred of Lioness Mike etc is just too much. Really every thread is derailed with people back biting and attacking eachother. People BE EASY??? Let the sources Teach and stop the hate.

I don't think nor I care for Mikes Black Europe deface blah blah blah, BUT ITs no worse then Lioness White Berbers True Berbers etc.

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Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by KING:
Blessings to all.

I am no fan of stifiling free speech.

BUT

Really the Hatred of Lioness Mike etc is just too much. Really every thread is derailed with people back biting and attacking eachother. People BE EASY??? Let the sources Teach and stop the hate.

I don't think nor I care for Mikes Black Europe deface blah blah blah, BUT ITs no worse then Lioness White Berbers True Berbers etc. IF its TRUE..POST LINKS SO others can read and make up there mind. That's what matters MANY people read these forums without posting because its an website of LEARNING. WHen you swear and curse at eachother, The evidence gets buried and NO ONE LEARNS.

STOP THE HATE. Let the research speak for itself. Also people who HATE Whites, Should NOT use whites as there evidence. Really Whites are no different from Blacks. Searching for TRUTH. Truth Allows FREETHINKERS to transcend COlor and Champion Human RACE. That's why MANY Whites fight for Egypt to be known as BLACK COUNTRY. Lets let the TRUTH speak for us all and NOT the COLOR. Berbers are BLACK and WHITE!!!!! Original Berbers Were Majority Black. White Slave trade Affected North Africa more then any other region. Arabs in North Africa are really arabized Africans. Harratins are Not Slave decended but Original Berbers. Tuaregs are Linked with the very black Beja in Sudan, Rashida are from Saudi Arabia and are not ethic Africans but are African people. Kabyle majority WHITE, Are Decended from Ethnic Africans and Have claim to the continent.

I respect ALL peoples on these forums, But I don't support the egos.
Lets let the PROOFS speak for us and NOT the EGOS.

Peace

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Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
Mike is a racial instigator. look how many threads he does with "albinos" in the title. He is obsessed on white people and calls mulattos "mutts". Men who call women "cunts" to hell with them

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Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by KING:
[QB] Blessings to all.

I am no fan of stifiling free speech.

BUT

Really the Hatred of Lioness Mike etc is just too much. Really every thread is derailed with people back biting and attacking eachother. People BE EASY??? Let the sources Teach and stop the hate.

I don't think nor I care for Mikes Black Europe deface blah blah blah, BUT ITs no worse then Lioness White Berbers True Berbers etc.

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I never said anything like white berbers are true berbers, I gave an honest airing of both sides. The topic is not "who are the berbers" see Cheikh Anta Diop, African Origins book center of page, Clyde post
the topic is specific to the Kabyle.
Mike is a racial instigator. look how many threads he does with "albinos" in the title. He is obsessed on white people and calls mulattos "mutts". Men who call women "cunts" to hell with them

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol aka Ish Gebor:
^Mike, I think what he meant to say was, that they can "have African ancestry".

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Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged |