It is the most complete Assyrian obelisk yet discovered, and is historically significant because it is thought to display the earliest ancient depiction of a biblical figure - Hoshea King of Israel. The traditional identification of "Yaw" as Jehu has been questioned by some scholars, who proposed that the inscription refers to another king, Jehoram of Israel. Its reference to 'Parsua' is also the first known reference to the Persians.
Depiction of Hoshea King of Israel giving tribute to King Shalmaneser III of Assyria (2 Kings 17:3), on the Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III from Nimrud (circa 827 BC) in the British Museum (London).
Neo-Assyrian, 858-824 BC From Nimrud (ancient Kalhu), northern Iraq
The military achievements of an Assyrian king
The archaeologist Henry Layard discovered this black limestone obelisk in 1846 during his excavations of the site of Kalhu, the ancient Assyrian capital. It was erected as a public monument in 825 BC at a time of civil war. The relief sculptures glorify the achievements of King Shalmaneser III (reigned 858-824 BC) and his chief minister. It lists their military campaigns of thirty-one years and the tribute they exacted from their neighbours: including camels, monkeys, an elephant and a rhinoceros. Assyrian kings often collected exotic animals and plants as an expression of their power.
There are five scenes of tribute, each of which occupies four panels round the face of the obelisk and is identified by a line of cuneiform script above the panel. From top to bottom they are:
Sua of Gilzanu (in north-west Iran) Jehu of Bit Omri (ancient northern Israel) An unnamed ruler of Musri (probably Egypt) Marduk-apil-usur of Suhi (middle Euphrates, Syria and Iraq) Qalparunda of Patin (Antakya region of Turkey)
The second register from the top includes the earliest surviving picture of an Israelite: the Biblical Jehu, king of Israel, brought or sent his tribute in around 841 BC. Ahab, son of Omri, king of Israel, had lost his life in battle a few years previously, fighting against the king of Damascus at Ramoth-Gilead (I Kings xxii. 29-36). His second son (Joram) was succeeded by Jehu, a usurper, who broke the alliances with Phoenicia and Judah, and submitted to Assyria. The caption above the scene, written in Assyrian cuneiform, can be translated
The tribute of Jehu, son of Omri: I received from him silver, gold, a golden bowl, a golden vase with pointed bottom, golden tumblers, golden buckets, tin, a staff for a king [and] spears.
J.E. Reade, Assyrian sculpture-1 (London, The British Museum Press, 1998)
T.C. Mitchell, The Bible in the British Museu (London, The British Museum Press, 1988)
D. Luckenbill, Ancient records of Assyria and (, 1927 (reprinted 1989))
posted
This is an humiliating picture of the black or mulato king of Israel bowing down in front of the black and mulato king of Assyria. If he didn't do that the Assyrian would have cut his head. I would like to see the picture of the Egyptian, Iranian, Irakian and Turkish king on the stela.
posted
Each panel runs around all four sides of the obelisk and is described by the cuneiform inscription above it.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
There are specialists who doubt Yehu, potentate of the divided Hebrew's northern kingdom Yisra'El, is herein depicted rather than diplomats in Assyrian employ. Let's assume that it is Yehu and that he and the retainers shown as one rotates the obelisk do exemplify the average phenotype of northern kingdom Hebrews, though strict comparison of the retainers in each register (their hairstyle and clothing) would be very informative. I'd do it but I no longer own Pritchard's The Ancient Near East: An Anthology of Texts and Pictures.
We still have not to dismiss the images of the southern Hebrew kingdom Y*huda's ruling junta depicted by Sennacherib ~120 years later (not so long afterward).
Remember, the northern kingdom is closer to the Caucasus while the southern kingdom is next door to Egypt.
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Been through all this before a few times. Don't waste my time. Review site:egyptsearch.com Shalmaneser site:egyptsearch.com Sennacherib
I know its better to start anew than link or bump old threads so some other cat can drag it in.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Please let's not talk about Caucasians and Negroids. I'm tired of them both
Caucasians and Negroids are banned from this thread
thanks, lioness
. Yes and that is why you posted "Yehu" while neglecting the Elders of Lachish right?
There is no other word for the inhabitants and emmigrating peoples from the Caucasus Mountains other than the word Caucasian because that is precisely what they are, CAUCASIANS.
Caucasians passed down through the Daryal Gorge to enter Mesopotamia and the Levant to influx resident populations and to form new ethnies of their own.
The eastern Mediterranean is a nexus of three continents. It and the Arabian Peninsula were peopled by other migrant invaders who didn't originally speak in Afrisian. Semitic speakers were among the first but weren't the only inhabitants of the region. Chadic and/or Nilo-Saharan speakers likely preceded them. Indo-Europeans, Caucasics, Altaics, etc., came after them probably via Daryal Gorge through the Caucasus.
From this can be gathered, if anything, that "Semites" are partially North East Africans who migrated into the Arabian peninsula and moved northward (as far as up to Turkey) where they met and mingled with and were maybe blocked from further spread by southward invading Eurasian peoples (Altaic and Indo-European speakers) in pre-historic times. Upon the eclipse of the southerners the hybrids and assimilated settlers (beginning circa -1800 with the maryannu caste) became heir to the names and languages of the original people they married into and whose culture they emulated and lexicon enriched.
People look at the familiar faces from the region as shown by the media and never see all the faces on the back streets and non-urban areas which more than likely resemble the original indigenees even before E3b bearers introduced Afrisan and the beginnings of neolithic industries.
It was the good life Afrisan speakers initiated and the indigenees nurtured that made the place a magnet for immigrants to cross the Daryal Gorge to infuse themselves in SWANEA. And Indo-European speakers continued to migrate in whatever numbers especially in Roman Byzantine and Crusader eras. Not to count the sexual slave trade (particularly in Circassian females) with the rise of Islam.
I'd revise bits of that, if freshly posting it today, but the bulk and certainly the gist of it is factual.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Each panel runs around all four sides of the obelisk and is described by the cuneiform inscription above it.
I notice the headwear, ...
2 Kings 17:3
Shalmaneser king of Assyria came up to attack Hoshea, who had been Shalmaneser’s vassal and had paid him tribute.
2 Kings 17:4
But the king of Assyria discovered that Hoshea was a traitor, for he had sent envoys to So king of Egypt, and he no longer paid tribute to the king of Assyria, as he had done year by year. Therefore Shalmaneser seized him and put him in prison.
2 Kings 18:9
In King Hezekiah’s fourth year, which was the seventh year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, Shalmaneser king of Assyria marched against Samaria and laid siege to it.
2 Kings 18:13
In the fourteenth year of King Hezekiah’s reign, Sennacherib king of Assyria attacked all the fortified cities of Judah and captured them.
2 Kings 18:17
[Sennacherib Threatens Jerusalem ] The king of Assyria sent his supreme commander, his chief officer and his field commander with a large army, from Lachish to King Hezekiah at Jerusalem. They came up to Jerusalem and stopped at the aqueduct of the Upper Pool, on the road to the Washerman’s Field.
2 Kings 19:20
[Isaiah Prophesies Sennacherib’s Fall ] Then Isaiah son of Amoz sent a message to Hezekiah: “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: I have heard your prayer concerning Sennacherib king of Assyria.
ISAIAH » PROPHECIES, REPROOFS, AND EXHORTATIONS OF » Reproves Ephraim for his wickedness, and fortells the destruction by Shalmaneser (Isaiah 28:1-5)
SAMARIA » City of, built by Omri » Besieged by Shalmaneser, king of Assyria, for three years; captured; the people carried away to Halah and Habor, cities of the Medes (2 Kings 17:5,6;18:9-11)
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: these short legged bearded people don't resemble Egyptians
Isaiah 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: these short legged bearded people don't resemble Egyptians
Isaiah 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
And this means that the Egyptians were short legged and had beards?
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: these short legged bearded people don't resemble Egyptians
Isaiah 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
And this means that the Egyptians were short legged and had beards?
Where did you read that?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] these short legged bearded people don't resemble Egyptians
Isaiah 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
And this means that the Egyptians were short legged and had beards?
Where did you read that?
Normally when people reply to a remark and quote that remark, their reply is related in subject
So if I say these short legged bearded people don't resemble Egyptians and then somebody quotes me and replies it's a good assumption that that their remark will be related to my remark
However you rountinely quote people and then the remark you make after it is unrelated to the quote, just random
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] these short legged bearded people don't resemble Egyptians
Isaiah 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
And this means that the Egyptians were short legged and had beards?
Where did you read that?
Normally when people reply to a remark and quote that remark, their reply is related in subject
So if I say these short legged bearded people don't resemble Egyptians and then somebody quotes me and replies it's a good assumption that that their remark will be related to my remark
However you rountinely quote people and then the remark you make after it is unrelated to the quote, just random
Normally when people receive a question they simple it, you were making a suggestion or at least something like that.
So, as I asked before, I'm going to ask you again. Where did you read that.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: Ps, ^they answer simple it
My remark was an observation not something I read
Tukular posted a Lachish relief and remarked
"Remember, the northern kingdom is closer to the Caucasus while the southern kingdom is next door to Egypt."
I observed the people in the relief didn't look like Egyptians and both you and Tukular agree with this, so stop nitpicking, thanks in advance
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: Ps, ^they answer simple it
My remark was an observation not something I read
Tukular posted a Lachish relief and remarked
"Remember, the northern kingdom is closer to the Caucasus while the southern kingdom is next door to Egypt."
I observed the people in the relief didn't look like Egyptians and both you and Tukular agree with this, so stop nitpicking, thanks in advance
Oh, so that's why you nitpicked on this biblical text? You can always change it if you want.
Isaiah 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
By the way, I'm not really sure what you mean be, agreeing on something. What I'm supposedly agreeing on, with you?
The Southern Kingdom is indeed closer to Africa, that's a mathematical fact. The Northern Kingdom is indeed closer to the Caucasus. That's also a mathematical fact.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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The Southern Kingdom consisted of 2 tribes (Judah and Benjamin). The kingdom extended in the north as far as Bethel, while in the south it ended in the dry area known as the Negev. Its eastern and western boundaries were the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. Jerusalem was its capital and it lasted from about 922-586 B.C., Judah had somewhat of a better record. Only 8 of Judah's kings served God. These were: Asa, Jehoshaphat, Joash, Amaziah, Uzziah, Jotham, Hezekiah, and Josiah. The rest of the 20 kings were wicked. In the southern kingdom there was only one dynasty, that of king David, except usurper Athaliah from the northern kingdom, who by marriage, broke into David's line, and interrupted the succession for 6 years, 20 kings in all. An average of about 16 years to a reign.
After Josiah there was no hope for Judah, the last 3 kings were all evil. The Babylonians swept down upon Jerusalem in 597 BC and captured it. A second attack led to Jerusalem's second defeat in 586 BC. Captives from both campaigns were taken to Babylonia to mark the captivity of the Southern Kingdom.
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posted
Israel, Kingdom of - Meaning of Israel, Kingdom of in Smiths Bible Dictionary (Bible History Online)
I. the kingdom. --The prophet Ahijah of Shiloh, who was commissioned in the latter days of Solomon to announce the division of the kingdom, left one tribe (Judah) to the house of David, and assigned ten to Jeroboam. 1Ki 11:31,35 These were probably Joseph (Ephraim and Manasseh), Issachar, Zebulun, Asher, Naphtali, Benjamin, Dan, Simeon, Gad and Reuben; Levi being intentionally omitted. Eventually the greater part of Benjamin, and probably the whole of Simeon and Dan, were included as if by common consent in the kingdom of Judah. With respect to the conquests of David, Moab appears to have been attached to the kingdom of Israel. 2Ki 3:4 so much of Syria as remained subject to Solomon, see 1Ki 11:24 would probably be claimed by his successor in the northern kingdom; and Ammon was at one time allied 2Ch 20:1 we know not how closely or how early, with Moab. The seacoast between Accho and Japho remained in the possession of Israel. The whole population may perhaps have amounted to at least three and a half millions.
II. the capitals. --Shechem was the first capital of the new kingdom. 1Ki 12:25 Subsequently Tirzah became the royal residence, if not the capital, of Jeroboam 1Ki 14:17 and of his successors. cf. 1Ki 15:33; 16:8,17,23 Samaria was chosen by Omri. 1Ki 16:24 Jezreel was probably only a royal residence of some of the Israelitish kings.
III. History. --The kingdom of Israel lasted 254 years, from B.C. 975 to B.C. 721. The detailed history of the kingdom will be found under the names of its nineteen kings. See chart of the kings of Judah and Israel, at the end of the work. A summary view may be taken in four periods: (a) B.C. 975-929. Jeroboam had not sufficient force of character in himself to make a lasting impression on his people. A king, but not a founder of a dynasty, he aimed at nothing beyond securing his present elevation. Baasha, in the midst of the army at Gibbethon, slew the son and successor of Jeroboam; Zimri, a captain of chariots, slew the son and successor of Baasha; Omri, the captain of the host, was chosen to punish Zimri; and after a civil war of four years he prevailed over Tibni, the choice of half the people. (b) B.C. 929-884. For forty-five years Israel wag governed by the house of Omri. The princes of his house cultivated an alliance with the king of Judah which was cemented by the marriage of Jehoram and Athaliah. The adoption of Baal-worship led to a reaction in the nation, to the moral triumph of the prophets in the person of Elijah, and to extinction of the house of Ahab in obedience to the bidding of Elisha. (c) B.C. 884-772. Unparalleled triumphs, but deeper humiliation, awaited the kingdom of Israel under the dynasty of Jehu. Hazael, the ablest king of Damascus, reduced Jehoahaz to the condition of a vassal, and triumphed for a time over both the disunited Hebrew kingdoms. Almost the first sign of the restoration of their strength was a war between them; and Jehoash, the grandson of Jehu, entered Jerusalem as the conqueror of Amaziah. Jehoash also turned the tide of war against the Syrians; and Jeroboam II., the most powerful of all the kings of of Israel, captured Damascus, and recovered the whole ancient frontier from Hamath to the Dead Sea. This short-lived greatness expired with the last king of Jehu's line. (d) B.C. 772-721. Military violence, it would seem, broke off the hereditary succession after the obscure and probably convulsed reign of Zachariah. An unsuccessful usurper, Shallum, is followed by the cruel Menahem, who, being unable to make head against the first attack of Assyria under Pul, became the agent of that monarch for the oppressive taxation of his subjects. Yet his power at home was sufficient to insure for his son and successor Pekahiah a ten-years reign, cut short by a bold usurper, Pekah. Abandoning the northern and transjordanic regions to the encroaching power of Assyria under Tiglath-pileser, he was very near subjugating Judah, with the help of Damascus, now the coequal ally of Israel. But Assyria interposing summarily put an end to the independence of Damascus, and perhaps was the indirect cause of the assassination of the baffled Pekah. The irresolute Hoshea, the next and last usurper, became tributary to his invaders Shalmaneser, betrayed the Assyrian to the rival monarchy of Egypt, and was punished by the loss of his liberty, and by the capture, after a three-years siege, of his strong capital, Samaria. Some gleanings of the ten tribes yet remained in the land after so many years of religious decline, moral debasement, national degradation, anarchy, bloodshed and deportation. Even these were gathered up by the conqueror and carried to Assyria, never again, as a distinct people, to occupy their portion of that goodly and pleasant land which their forefathers won under Joshua from the heathen. (Schaff Bib. Dic.) adds to this summary that "after the destruction of the kingdom of Israel, B.C. 721, the name 'Israel' began to be applied to the whole surviving people. No doubt many of the kingdom of Israel joined the later kingdom of the Jews after the captivity, and became part of that kingdom.--ED.)
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posted
Judah, Kingdom of - Meaning of Judah, Kingdom of in Smiths Bible Dictionary (Bible History Online)
Extent. --When the disruption of Solomon's kingdom took place at Shechem, B.C. 975, only the tribe of Judah followed David, but almost immediately afterward the larger part of Benjamin joined Judah. A part, if no all, of the territory of Simeon, 1Sa 27:6; 1Ki 19:3 comp. Josh 19:1 and of Dan, 2Ch 11:10 comp. Josh 19:41,42 was recognized as belonging to Judah; and in the reigns of Abijah and Asa the southern kingdom was enlarged by some additions taken out of the territory of Ephraim. 2Ch 13:19; 15:8; 17:2 It is estimated that the territory of Judah contained about 3450 square miles. Advantages. --The kingdom of Judah possessed many advantages which secured for it a longer continuance than that of Israel. A frontier less exposed to powerful enemies, a soil less fertile, a population hardier and more united, a fixed and venerated centre of administration and religion, a hereditary aristocracy in the sacerdotal caste, an army always subordinate, a succession of kings which no revolution interrupted; so that Judah survived her more populous and more powerful sister kingdom by 135 years, and lasted from B.C. 975 to B.C. 536. History --The first three kings of Judah seem to have cherished the hope of re-establishing their authority over the ten tribes; for sixty years there was war between them and the kings of Israel. The victory achieved by the daring Abijah brought to Judah a temporary accession of territory. Asa appears to have enlarged it still further. Hanani's remonstrance, 2Ch 16:7 prepares us for the reversal by Jehoshaphat of the policy which Asa pursued toward Israel and Damascus. A close alliance sprang up with strange rapidity between Judah and Israel. Jehoshaphat, active and prosperous, commanded the respect of his neighbors; but under Amaziah Jerusalem was entered and plundered by the Israelites. Under Uzziah and Jotham, Judah long enjoyed prosperity, till Ahaz became the tributary and vassal of Tiglath-pileser. Already in the fatal grasp of Assyria, Judah was yet spared for a checkered existence of almost another century and a half after the termination of the kingdom of Israel. The consummation of the ruin came upon its people in the destruction of the temple by the hand of Nebuzaradan, B.C. 536. There were 19 kings, all from the family of David. (Population. --We have a gage as to the number of the people at different periods in the number of soldiers. If we estimate the population at four times the fighting men, we will have the following table: King...Date ... Soldiers ... Population David...B.C. 1056-1015 ... 500,000 ... 2,000,000 Rehoboam...975-957 ... 180,000 ... 720,000 Abijah...957-955 ... 400,000 ... 1,600,000 Asa...955-914 ... 500,000 ... 2,000,000 Jehoshaphat...914-889 ... 1,160,000 ... 4,640,000 Amaziah...839-810 ... 300,000 ... 1,200,000
-ED.)
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: these short legged bearded people don't resemble Egyptians
Different haircut & different style of clothing. Remember that they EASILY passed for Egyptian when they wore Egyptian attire, as scripture states when Joseph passed for one (his brothers didn't recognize him, remember?) , Moses passed for one (being brought up by Egyptians, and being mistaken for one in Midian) and the whole congregation of Israel & Egyptians were described as being Egyptian when they went up to Jordan to bury Jacob.
They looked virtually indistinguishably from one another, phenotypically speaking. The Levitical laws are a testament to this (yellow/blonde-limp hair & white skin being equated to a curse/plague (leprosy) ) fact also.
There's no use discussing the phenotypical appearance to any of the indigenous peoples of North East Africa (which is what Arabia/Levant/Mesopotamia really is) .
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: these short legged bearded people don't resemble Egyptians
Different haircut & different style of clothing. Remember that they EASILY passed for Egyptian when they wore Egyptian attire, as scripture states when Joseph passed for one (his brothers didn't recognize him, remember?) , Moses passed for one (being brought up by Egyptians, and being mistaken for one in Midian) and the whole congregation of Israel & Egyptians were described as being Egyptian when they went up to Jordan to bury Jacob.
They looked virtually indistinguishably from one another, phenotypically speaking. The Levitical laws are a testament to this (yellow/blonde-limp hair & white skin being equated to a curse/plague (leprosy) ) fact also.
There's no use discussing the phenotypical appearance to any of the indigenous peoples of North East Africa (which is what Arabia/Levant/Mesopotamia really is) .
You mean to tell be these short legged Israelites and Assyrians
Figure 1.--This Assyrian carving at Lachish shows Hebrews being led into exile by Sargon's son Sennacherib after Hezekiah's failed revolot (701 BC).
Assyrirans with Hebrew cpatives
look like Egyptians
SETI I, at Abydos
RAMESSES II, Karnak
RAMESSES II, Karnak
^^^ look at how long and thin they are compared to the short stubby Assyrians and Hebrews who look similar and the Assyrians and some of the Hebrews had big full curly beards that I'm not even sure the ancient Egyptians could grow
(assuming the Lacish art is realistically accuurate, it may not be)
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posted
“A splendid synagogue from the Talmudic period was unearthed recently during excavations at Khirbet Hukuk in the northwestern Galilee on the site where a Jewish community existed between the fourth and sixth centuries C.E.“
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
According to Ruth Jacoby's chapter in the Sixth Archaeological Conference in Israel (Tel-Aviv, 14-15 March 1979) / Collectif. - Jerusalem : Israel Exploration Society, 1979 the frieze is an execution in reality of how Lachish's Judahites actually looked like.
From ANE
>"The details that do exist in the reliefs could ... have been drawn wholly >from written campaign accounts and interviews with partcipants from both >sides. In this context two things should be remembered. First, many >inhabitants of captured cities were deported to Assyria, so it should not >have been difficult to Locate Lachishites to interview; Barnett observed >that men wearing the costume of the Lachishites were shown among the >laborers in the bull-hauling scenes of Court VI and in the royal bodyguard >in the Ishtar Temple procession. Second, Sennacherib's palace was being >built and decorated at the same time the first few campaigns were being >conducted; the relief designers could draw on recent memories, unclouded by >time, to insure the accuracy of their immages. Thus we might expect to find >greater accuracy in the early campaign reliefs of Sennacherib than in those >of Assyrian kings whose palaces date to the later part of their reign." >(Russell 1991:208f)
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] According to Ruth Jacoby's chapter in the Sixth Archaeological Conference in Israel (Tel-Aviv, 14-15 March 1979) / Collectif. - Jerusalem : Israel Exploration Society, 1979 the frieze is an execution in reality of how Lachish's Judahites actually looked like.
who wrote the sentence>
" the frieze is an execution in reality of how Lachish's Judahites actually looked like."
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Notice these two bowing figures
the bottom one is assumed to Yehu king of Israel but the top figure has the exact same head cover and clothes. Comparing the retainers reveals the same thing plus same foot coverings, iirc.
This is why some scholars doubt Yehu is depicted instead of some servitor in Shalmanessar's employ.
Sennacherib's frieze of Judahites leaves no room for doubt and has no serious dispute of accuracy.
As for limb proportions compare Assyrians to Kushites/Egyptians in Assyrian art not from various different sources of art style. Compare the below in light of this quote "compared to the short stubby Assyrians and Hebrews" as far as who's "shortest" and "stubbiest" nevermind the Assyrian artist's canon. And remember, in general, ancient Egyptians were short and ancient Sudanese were rather tall.
courtesy of Mike111 Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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the bottom one is assumed to Yehu king of Israel but the top figure has the exact same hat clothes and shoes.
This is why some scholars doubt Yehu is depicted instead of some servitor in Shalmanessar's employ.
I don't see how both figures having the same clothing puts their ethnicity in question. (although what you can tell by looking at either figure is limited) There is also cuneiform writing associated with the figures.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Sennacherib's frieze of Judahites leaves no room for doubt and has no serious dispute of accuracy.
As for limb proportions compare Assyrians to Kushites/Egyptians in Assyrian art not from various different sources of art style.
This is odd. You are saying there is no dispute of accuracy and then you say don't refer to the art.
And no dispute in accuracy of what?
Art experts will tell you much of this art is stylized and is not intended to be realistic. For instance look at the Persepolis art. Most of the many ethnic groups have very similar features, mainly their clothing and hairstyle is different. They look too similar to be believably that similar beyond commonality of some near by regions
Look at various depictions of a given Egyptian king. Often they look like different people.
The purpose of this art cannot be assumed to be for people a couple of years later to have accurate record of stereotypical ethnic physical traits
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Remember, in general ancient Egyptians were short and ancient Sudanese were rather tall.
that may be correct but do you have a source?
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Figure 1.--This Assyrian carving at Lachish shows Hebrews being led into exile by Sargon's son Sennacherib after Hezekiah's failed revolot (701 BC).
Assyrirans with Hebrew captives
^^^ If these are accurate these adults had the proportions of boys aged about 9 years old maybe
Their legs are very short compared to their trunks. This is the cold adapted ratio and is quite unlike much of the elongated types in the Egyptian art. Did the people really have these child-like proportions or was it an artistic style? I don't know
The full facial hair is not typical of Africans although some have it.
There is no difference in the features between the Assyrian and the Hebrews
The ethnicity of the features of the bearded captives is hard to say, It could be like a lot of people. They are different from the figures marked "Nubian" The other unbearded Hebrews marked "Hebrews being led into exile" appear to have a bulbous chin uncharacteristic of Africans, Swenet once said something similar about "concave facial profile" Would the bearded Hebrews
Is their hair afro or curly? I don't know. Again the Assyrian with the spear (?) has similar dotted hair an beard but the back portion of his hair straight. The scale of each dot or curl is to large to be natural afro hair. It's either an artistic representation of afro hair Or afro hair that has been dreaded or treated in some way or it's not afro hair but instead thicker strand curly.
I can't tell the the ethnicity of these people by looking at this. And their proportions are so child like it cast doubt over the whole thing. The fact that the Assyrian looks the same as the Hebrew except for hair suggest that like some of the Persepolis art they seem to have a generic human that they add different clothing and hairstyles to. Sometimes modern artists do this also
Now look at this Seti I
^^^ One would not know how close this was to how he looked but you can see the depiction of the human form is much more refined and precise compared to the Lacish figures
^^^ Is Black history ?
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The full facial hair is not typical of Africans although some have it.
You've been writing this shyt for years now.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Their legs are very short compared to their trunks. This is the cold adapted ratio and is quite unlike much of the elongated types in the Egyptian art. Did the people really have these child-like proportions or was it an artistic style? I don't know
Who made that "art depiction"?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Is their hair afro or curly? I don't know.
For sure, it's not bone straight.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
The full facial hair is not typical of Africans although some have it.
You've been writing this shyt for years now.
Pardon the intrusion:
But when you treat such a ridiculous statement seriously, you actually give it credence. The ignorant, of which there are many, will think that it could possibly be true, a difference of opinion even.
As distasteful as it may be to you, the correct response is verbal abuse. The ignorant must know that Lioness does not even deserve a civil response - plus she obviously gets off on it, else why encourage it all the time, so no harm done.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: these short legged bearded people don't resemble Egyptians
Different haircut & different style of clothing. Remember that they EASILY passed for Egyptian when they wore Egyptian attire, as scripture states when Joseph passed for one (his brothers didn't recognize him, remember?) , Moses passed for one (being brought up by Egyptians, and being mistaken for one in Midian) and the whole congregation of Israel & Egyptians were described as being Egyptian when they went up to Jordan to bury Jacob.
They looked virtually indistinguishably from one another, phenotypically speaking. The Levitical laws are a testament to this (yellow/blonde-limp hair & white skin being equated to a curse/plague (leprosy) ) fact also.
There's no use discussing the phenotypical appearance to any of the indigenous peoples of North East Africa (which is what Arabia/Levant/Mesopotamia really is) .
The Egyptian Coptic scripts speak of Moses as having dark skin. It is also stated that he had little horns on his head, so did Aaron.
Kinda' like this head priest of the Egyptian Coptic church. But I agree, you'll find this phenotype in the " Arabia/Levant/Mesopotamia".
Btw, a lot of biblical talk is metaphorical.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Oh please I replaced the panarama sized image before you replied and you could've even zoomed it before I substituted the focus.
Don't try dodging a 1:1 comparison between Judahites and Kushites in Assyrian art of the same epoch.
How different are trunk thigh and leg lengths between the two in this art?
The 'stubbiness' you bank on seems an Assyrian art canon practice as is the height of the conquerors in comparison to the conquered.
above courtesy of Mike111
The Judahites and Kushites are clearly different in phenotype though there are resemblances. Both have nappy hair for instance, bushy if you prefer or lamb's wool. Hebrew texts use both of the last descriptions for the usual `Am Yisra'el hair type.
We've done all this before. Redundancy is a teacher. Feigned forgetfullness is a poor excuse.
There's no confusing the tight knotty hair of the Judahites for natural or artificially loosely curled straight hair. Even the beard and sideburns tell the same story.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Notice these two bowing figures
the bottom one is assumed to Yehu king of Israel but the top figure has the exact same head cover and clothes. Comparing the retainers reveals the same thing plus same foot coverings, iirc.
This is why some scholars doubt Yehu is depicted instead of some servitor in Shalmanessar's employ.
Sennacherib's frieze of Judahites leaves no room for doubt and has no serious dispute of accuracy.
As for limb proportions compare Assyrians to Kushites/Egyptians in Assyrian art not from various different sources of art style. Compare the below in light of this quote "compared to the short stubby Assyrians and Hebrews" as far as who's "shortest" and "stubbiest" nevermind the Assyrian artist's canon. And remember, in general, ancient Egyptians were short and ancient Sudanese were rather tall.
courtesy of Mike111
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
The horns of Moses is due to a Xian mistranslation of the Hebrew text describing Moses as shining or as with light radiating from him
וּמֹשֶׁה לֹא-יָדַע, כִּי קָרַן עוֹר פָּנָיו
The root qrnקָרַן in this instance means shine not horn.
Moses knew not that the skin of his face sent forth beams
וּמֹשֶׁה and Moshe לֹא-יָדַע didn't know כִּי that קָרַן radiated עוֹר skin פָּנָיו his face
posted
Since you all seem interested in identifying Assyrian victims, why not try your hand at identifying who the Alammu are.
Gypsum wall panel relief: showing prisoners from the town of Alammu. In the lower register Assyrian soldiers and auxiliaries bring the heads of slain prisoners to an officer of the king's guard carrying a long staff and large round shield; they are followed by prisoners handcuffed to the belt, one being executed en route, and women with children who, judging from their dress, are of Syrian type. The scene is set between a river plentiful in fish and a row of trees and vines which point to Syria or a western land. The careful distinctions made in the equipment of the soldiery are interesting. The auxiliaries wearing crested helmets carry round shields which seem to be wicker-work, and long pikes; they wear the knee-covering represented by hatching. One type of bowman is bareheaded, with a decorated fillet, and has no corselet, and the one executing a prisoner has crossed straps to hold the short skirt. The prisoners have over their plain shirts a shorter cloak of some other material, apparently woven. In the upper register two scribes are recording, one on a tablet and another on a parchment (?) roll, heads brought by auxiliaries.
Their hair seems short and tightly curled like "Some" Hebrews, which has caused some people to guess that they were Hebrews.
But others, looking at other things say they are eastern people.
SENNACHERIB’S SIEGE, ASSAULT, AND CONQUEST OF ALAMMU Davide Nadali
The information available to us about the toponym of Alammu is provided only by theshort and fragmentary epigraph directly applied on the relief; on the contrary, the name of Alammu is totally absent in the Annals of the Second Campaign. The introduction of these short labels is meant to replace the long inscription that in the 9th-8th cent. BC divided the slabs into two registers: in the 7th cent. BC, all the surface of the slabs is occupied by the depicted events, while the text is relegated to simple and concise Unfortunately, the short epigraph applied just above the urban walls of the city is fragmentary, and the interpretation of the name is hypothetical. It would be one of the outposts conquered and destroyed by Sennacherib in his second campaign in which the Assyrian army advances in the impervious Zagros mountains, in the Diyala region as far as Ellipi in order to obtain the tribute of the Medes. The presumed identification with Alammu as an eastern town is partly supported by a letter of the time of Sargon II: it mentions the place of Alammu as the town where Urzana of Mu#a#ir takes refuge. Therefore, it would be a locality near Mu#a#ir in the Urartian-controlled territory north-east of Nineveh. The detailed representation of the fortress is also useful to define the place: the Ni-nevite sculptors carefully distinguish the architecture of the cities assaulted and con-quered by the Assyrian army, and the characteristic landscape of the region. Surely, the event of Room XIV does not identify a western centre, but a typical fortress of the eastern regions, well recognizable particularly thanks to the position on a peak and to the presence of a small river; the most significant aspects that help to mark the geographical region of Alammu are the architectural peculiarities of the urban walls, in particular the towers without windows and shields, characteristics of the western fortresses, but with the decoration of merlons on the top. Considering all these iconographical aspects, Alammu is clearly recognizable as a northeastern centre essentially due to three features:1. it has no projecting balconies, as, on the contrary, we may observe on the fortifications of the Palestinian city of Lachish;2. it stands on a higher position (on a mound) compared to the lower position of the Assyrian army;3. it has an arched entrance flanked by two towers. Finally, a careful observation of the military strategies applied by the Assyrian army during the siege contributes to the eastern characterization of Alammu: if we examine all the other conquests of eastern fortresses, it may be noted that the Assyrian army never uses artificial ramps in this context, but employs exclusively long ladders. This fact might yield a new insight on the different military tactics employed by the Assyrian army depending on the geographical region: it is possible that the ladders as well as the battering rams were included in the armaments kit beforehand, since the Assyrian army knew whether it had to employ the former or the latter in the siege operations or not. On the other hand, we should not rule out the possibility that these military devices could have been directly prepared in the battlefield.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Ah, a good research project for someone who's really interested in it, maybe me when I have spare time.
My immediate uninformed response is maybe one of the people of what is now Beluchistan maybe ???
Are those all the scenes that are available?
Apparently -alammu is only the last part of the town name leading some to suppose it's Jerusalem.
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posted
As we all know except for lioness, Black people have the greatest variety in genetic makeup.
Some Blacks have hair that grows extremely slowly and curly. This man has likely not cut his hair or shaved in years. Yet the hair is only the length that you see.
The Hebrew and Alammu depictions likely represent this type of phenotype.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Remember, in general ancient Egyptians were short and ancient Sudanese were rather tall.
that may be correct but do you have a source?
Seti II tomb KV15 sketch in the Denkmaeler condensation of the Cattle of Ra BG:s30.
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Stature estimation in ancient Egyptians: a new technique based on anatomical reconstruction of stature. Raxter
^^^ this very big paper, thread on it a while back. I forget details, later
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Snakepit1:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
these short legged bearded people don't resemble Egyptians
Different haircut & different style of clothing. Remember that they EASILY passed for Egyptian when they wore Egyptian attire, as scripture states when Joseph passed for one (his brothers didn't recognize him, remember?) , Moses passed for one (being brought up by Egyptians, and being mistaken for one in Midian) and the whole congregation of Israel & Egyptians were described as being Egyptian when they went up to Jordan to bury Jacob.
They looked virtually indistinguishably from one another, phenotypically speaking. The Levitical laws are a testament to this (yellow/blonde-limp hair & white skin being equated to a curse/plague (leprosy) ) fact also.
There's no use discussing the phenotypical appearance to any of the indigenous peoples of North East Africa (which is what Arabia/Levant/Mesopotamia really is) .
. Also in the Greek books Paul, the Judean founder of Christianity was mistaken for an Egyptian
Art not thou that Egyptian ...
Acts 21:38
This aligns with Greco-Latin thought
One of the customs most zealously observed among the Aegyptians is this, that they rear every child that is born, and circumcise the males, and excise the females, as is also customary among the Judaeans, who also are Aegyptian in origin, as I have already stated in my account of them.
Strabo
then there's the most popular Roman opinion that Judeans are an Ćthiopian subset.
The majority of people say the Judaeans were those Ethiopians whom fear and hatred obliged to change their habitations, in the reign of king Cepheus.
Tacitus -- The Histories Book V
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posted
Figure 1.--This Assyrian carving at Lachish shows Hebrews being led into exile by Sargon's son Sennacherib after Hezekiah's failed revolot (701 BC).
Assyrirans with Hebrew captives
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
these short legged bearded people don't resemble Egyptians
^^^ This is my original remark
Notice how I didn't say
these short bearded people don't resemble Egyptians
I said
these short legged bearded people don't resemble Egyptians
Here I clarified my remark>>
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
^^^ If these are accurate these adults had the proportions of boys aged about 9 years old maybe
Their legs are very short compared to their trunks. This is the cold adapted ratio and is quite unlike much of the elongated types in the Egyptian art.
This would correspond to zarahan's often quoted:
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Northern Egypt near the Mediterranean shows the same pattern- limb length data puts its peoples closer to tropically adapted Africans that cold climate Europeans "..sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline variation along the Nile valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into southern Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans." (Barry Kemp, "Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation. (2005) Routledge. p. 52-60)
I don't know if this quote is comprehensive to all ancient Near East body proportions but I can't believe people are now pulling out the bible as if it's a historical document and going against zarahan's teachings
I allowed myself to get side tracked into stature. My first remark was an accurate observation
Afrter that I also I said
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
look at how long and thin they are compared to the short stubby Assyrians and Hebrews who look similar
^^when I said this it should have been assumed that I am not simply saying the people were short. I was saying in this Lachish relief that their legs were short compared to their bodies, close to or about the same length as their arms.
It's very obvious looking at these reliefs that they don't look like Egyptians because of these proportions and their full beards.
^^^ As for the hair on that Lachish relief you can't exclude any of the above possibilities definatively to by what it is depiciting
______________________________________________
^^^ look at the dotted portions of the Assyrian's hair and beard. How did they get like that? They look just like the dots one of the sets of figures that are believed to be maybe Hebrews.
I have looked for pictures of modern people who have beards like these Assyrians or Hebrews but I can't find any
^^^ this dude with the Philly beard doesn't have that big dotted look like on the reiief of the Hebrews or Assyrian. The texture is much finer, the curls much smaller in scale
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: [QB] Since you all seem interested in identifying Assyrian victims, why not try your hand at identifying who the Alammu are.
Their hair seems short and tightly curled like "Some" Hebrews, which has caused some people to guess that they were Hebrews.
But others, looking at other things say they are eastern people.
SENNACHERIB’S SIEGE, ASSAULT, AND CONQUEST OF ALAMMU Davide Nadali
Look at the Assyrian on the right, his beard It looks the same as the captive's
It's hard to say what kind of hair that actually is You can't pin down the the ethnicity.
Are they black African types? I don't get that impression
Bronze head of an Akkadian ruler, probably Sargon, Nineveh, c. 23rd – 22nd century BC. It might depict Sargon's grandson Naram-Sin Reign c. 2334 BC – 2279 BC
^^^ This is 23rd – 22nd century BC
Look at the beard. Is it asupposd to be natural hair or is it a beard that was artifically stylized. It's hard to say
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I don't understand what these pictures have to do with the subject at hand? What are you suggesting?
Isaiah 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Go away lioness, no one is interested in pursuing stupidity with you.
SEEN
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posted
funny how, in trying to set me up, you left out the black people I had included. I will put them back in for the quote
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
I don't understand what these pictures have to do with the subject at hand? What are you suggesting?
-that a lot of different types of people could have hair like the sculpture.
and that you can't even tell exactly what type of hair that is supposed to be
and therefore you can't use this sculpture to say that these figures, supposedly Hebrew were necessarily black African type people, excluding other possibilities.
I'm not saying they are not black African type people. I'm saying that you can't say they are for sure or even be close to being sure.
You can only say black Africans are one of several types of people who might have that type of hair That is an honest objective observation
^^^ similarly you can't assume these similar figures are for sure African type people with "nappy hair" as one poster said
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Well we see here some of Asia's blacks also have nappy hair.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: funny how, in trying to set me up, you left out the black people I had included. I will put them back in for the quote
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
I don't understand what these pictures have to do with the subject at hand? What are you suggesting?
-that a lot of different types of people could have hair like the sculpture.
and that you can't even tell exactly what type of hair that is supposed to be
and therefore you can't use this sculpture to say that these figures, supposedly Hebrew were necessarily black African type people, excluding other possibilities.
I'm not saying they are not black African type people. I'm saying that you can't say they are for sure or even be close to being sure.
You can only say black Africans are one of several types of people who might have that type of hair That is an honest objective observation
^^^ similarly you can't assume these similar figures are for sure African type people with "nappy hair" as one poster said
Yes, left out the African American.
But what is it these other toe have to do with the subject? What is it your implying? You have them up every so what minute.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
But what is it these other two have to do with the subject? What is it your implying? You have them up every so what minute.
The subject of this thread is the Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III located in Northen Iraq. People didn't like that subject so I allowed myself to participate in a change of subject to reliefs in Lachish, Israel
To make comparisons on hair type I compared the Lachish relief to an African Amercian, European Americans and a Beja
So why are you asking me about a specific two ?
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