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Author Topic: Earliest picture of an Israelite
the lioness,
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 -

^^^^ This is a close up of what scholars are confident is an Elamite from a larger scene Tukuliar posted.
Elam was an ancient civilization centered in the far west and southwest of modern-day Iran.

Notice he doesn't look that similar to this archer, differences in the hair are obvious


 -
(sorry for more good color quality photos)

^ Tukular has ZERO sources to back his claim that this man has anything other than a headband on his head

Scholars are not certain what ethnicity these archers are
The hair on this archer, resembles this >

 -
Relief of a warrior at the ancient ruins of Persepolis, Iran.
(notice that there is even a small row of curls along the forehead)

he's got the sidburns that Tukular keeps trying to BS on

and the point that he is still too thick to get, is that if there was cloth hanging down form that headband it would be covering up a portion of hair that on other very similar figures at Persepolis that have straight hair in that section while the rest of their hair and beards are curly

It is so very obvious

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Tukuler
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OK, it may not be stiff cloth but whatever it is
it's not hair of any kind no way no shape no how.


Not trying to convince Lyin'Ass because he doesn't
care for facts he only cares to make anything even
remotely black to be limited to sub-Sahara Africa.


Intelligent lurkers and surfers though quiet are
surely not falling for his obvious face saving
melanophobic bullshit.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
OK, it may not be stiff cloth but whatever it is
it's not hair of any kind no way no shape no how.


Not trying to convince Lyin'Ass because she doesn't
care for facts he only cares to make anything even
remotely black to be limited to sub-Sahara Africa.


Intelligent lurkers and surfers though quiet are
surely not falling for his obvious face saving
melanophobic bullshit.

He makes up a "textile" add on to a headband that has no scholarly source to support it yet calls it a fact

That is proof he's a lair

I think he knows he's lying because otherwise he would be quiet for a while looking for a source to back it up.
But he knows he's bullshytting
Some of these veterans are obsolete, need to be put out to pasture

He calls me "melanophobic" when the subject is hair, lol

quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
OK, it may not be stiff cloth but whatever it is
it's not hair of any kind no way no shape no how.



this type of certainty is a mark of foolishness

A more reasonable thing to say is you don't know if it's hair or not

--and again, if it's not hair then you don't know what type of hair is under it

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Tukuler
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As long as the Lyin'Ass says I'm foolish I know I'm on the right track!  -  -  -

It wouldn't matter to me what kind of hair Elamites
had. What matters to me is factually reporting what
is left on record. As far as I can make out from what
is available the Elamites had woolly hair per the art
from several sources not just one depiction looked
at at low detail gritty resolution.


I'm not the one following ideology and making a
head piece (whether textile or whatever) into
hair strands to support a priori expectations.

When I find something anomalous I take it for what
it is. No dogma. I don't support styled haired as
natural hair (case of the Assyrians and Persians)
nor do I seek to make Africans out of either Persians
Elamites nor Assyrians.


Whatever the issue, if evidence is brought forth
disconfirming any conclusion I've made I am known
to precision my formerly held views to acknowledge
and accept the up to date facts.


I want an authentic African Studies / anthropology / etc.,
related database not self-congratulatory patting self on the
back bullshit no more true than the lies colonialist have spread
to bolster their worldview and control of the world.

Uber African distortion
is no better than
uber European distortion

Both are distortion.

"Tell the children the truth."

no matter who doesn't like it
nor the system they would maintain
by a pack of lies built into their
institutions (church, university,
media, etc.)

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -

According to Herodotus these are a form of Ethiopian

Yep, you've f*ckedup again. Now show us what your favorite "poster boy" Herodotus wrote about the Elamites.


 -


 -

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:


Curly and wooly are the same

yes, if you are stupid

otherwise you would know all woolly hair is curly
but not all curly hair is woolly

Yep, you're right not all curly is wooly, but curly can be wooly. And we are having a conversation on woolly hair texture, remember? So in that context curly and woolly are the same.


 -


 -


 -


 -


 -


 -



And yes, the hair texture above is thick and wooly as well.




http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-riwaDgLwFlo/Uh1KndqpoPI/AAAAAAAAJaA/j_5MVDCZeLc/s1600/black+hair.jpg

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -

^^^^ This is a close up of what scholars are confident is an Elamite from a larger scene Tukuliar posted.
Elam was an ancient civilization centered in the far west and southwest of modern-day Iran.

Notice he doesn't look that similar to this archer, differences in the hair are obvious


 -
(sorry for more good color quality photos)

^ Tukular has ZERO sources to back his claim that this man has anything other than a headband on his head

Scholars are not certain what ethnicity these archers are
The hair on this archer, resembles this >

 -
Relief of a warrior at the ancient ruins of Persepolis, Iran.
(notice that there is even a small row of curls along the forehead)

he's got the sidburns that Tukular keeps trying to BS on

and the point that he is still too thick to get, is that if there was cloth hanging down form that headband it would be covering up a portion of hair that on other very similar figures at Persepolis that have straight hair in that section while the rest of their hair and beards are curly

It is so very obvious

More of your baseless idiotic iterating rantings. And it really leads nowhere, just a bottomless pit. If it's "not a headband" according to you, then tell what it is?lol

quote:
 -


The ancient city of Susa (biblical Shushan) lay at the edge of the Iranian plateau, not far from the great cities of Mesopotamia. A strategically located and vital center, Susa absorbed diverse influences and underwent great political fluctuations during the several thousand years of its history. When French archaeologists began to excavate its site in the nineteenth century, the astonishing abundance of finds greatly expanded our understanding of the ancient Near East. The artifacts were taken to Paris through diplomatic agreement and became a centerpiece of the Louvre's great collection of Near Eastern antiquities. These works are rarely loaned, but a remarkable selection that includes many undisputed masterpieces, brought to The Metropolitan Museum of Art for exhibition, is presented in this comprehensive publication.

Susa was settled about 4000 B.C. and has yielded striking pottery finds from that prehistoric period. A rich production followed of objects for daily use, ritual, and luxury living, finely carved in various materials or fashioned of clay. Monumental sculpture was made in stone or bronze, and dramatic friezes were composed of brilliantly glazed bricks. Among the discoveries are tiny, intricately carved cylinder seals and splendid jewelry. Clay balls marked with symbols offer fascinating testimony to the very beginnings of writing; clay tablets from later periods bearing inscriptions in cuneiform record political history, literature, business transactions, and mathematical calculations.

A very important group of finds from Susa is made up of objects brought back as booty from conquests in Mesopotamia. These works, many of them the royal monuments of Akkadian and Babylonian monarchs—for instance, the great stele of Naram-Sin—are among the best known of all objects from the ancient Near East. Altogether, the exhibition presents more than two hundred objects found at Susa, produced over a period of about 3500 years. They come from all periods of the site's settlement, from it earliest history to its adornment as a major city of the opulent Achaemenid Persian empire.

Eighteen French and American scholars have contributed essays to this volume on subjects that include the history of art in ancient Iran from prehistoric settlement through the Achaemenid period; the history of the excavations at Susa; the development of writing; seals and sealings; royal and religious structures at Susa; objects brought from Mesopotamia; brick decoration; popular art; and cuneiform texts. Recent results of ongoing research into the archaeology of Susa are discussed. Analyses of specific techniques are included as well as reports on the conservation of objects. Each work in the exhibition is illustrated and fully described, with references to relevant publications.


Royal City of Susa: Ancient Near Eastern Treasures in the Louvre

Harper, Prudence O., Joan Aruz, and Françoise Tallon, eds. (1992)


Repost for the lioness productions team.


quote:
8 Cush had a son named Nimrod, who became the world's first great conqueror. 9 By the Lord's help he was a great hunter, and that is why people say, “May the Lord make you as great a hunter as Nimrod!” 10 At first his kingdom included Babylon, Erech, and Accad, all three of them in Babylonia. 11 From that land he went to Assyria and built the cities of Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah,

12 and Resen, which is between Nineveh and the great city of Calah.


--Moshe et al.

Genesis 10.8-12


quote:
"A potential issue that could in theory influence our findings is that the exact population contributing to African ancestry in West Eurasians is unknown. To gain insight into the African source populations, we carried out PCA analyses, which suggested that the African ancestry in West Eurasians is at least as closely related to East Africans (e.g. Hapmap3 Luhya (LWK)) as to West Africans (e.g. Nigerian Yoruba (YRI)) (the same analyses show that there is no evidence of relatedness to Chadic populations like Bulala) (Text S5 and Figure S12).

We also used the 4 Population Test to assess whether the tree ((LWK, YRI),(West Eurasian, CEU)) is consistent with the data, and found no evidence for a violation,

which is consistent with a mixture of either West African or East African ancestors or both contributing to the African ancestry in West Eurasians (Table S14; Figure S13). Historically, a mixture of West and East African ancestry is plausible, since African gene flow into West Eurasia is documented from both West Africa during Roman times [34] and from East Africa during migrations from Egypt [7]. It is important to point out, however, that the difficulty of pinpointing the exact African source population is not expected to bias our inferences about the total proportion and date of mixture. The f4 Ancestry Estimation method is unbiased even when we use a poor surrogates for the true ancestral African population (as long as the phylogeny is correct), as we confirmed by repeating analyses replacing YRI with LWK, and obtaining similar results (Table S15).Our ROLLOFF admixture date estimates are also similar whether we use LWK or YRI to represent ancestral African population (Table S15), as predicted by the theory.



--Moorjani et al.




quote:
Our statistical tests of alternative Semitic histories support an initial divergence of Akkadian from ancestral Semitic over competing hypotheses (e.g. an African origin of Semitic). We estimate an Early Bronze Age origin for Semitic approximately 5750 years ago in the Levant, and further propose that contemporary Ethiosemitic languages of Africa reflect a single introduction of early Ethiosemitic from southern Arabia approximately 2800 years ago.
[…]

Semitic languages (Akkadian, Aramaic, Ge'ez, ancient Hebrew and Ugaritic) combined with archaeological evidence for the sampling dates of the epigraphic data (the time at which the materials were inscribed).

 -


"These results indicate that the ancestor of all Semitic languages in our dataset was being spoken in the Near East no earlier than approximately 7400 YBP, after having after having diverged from Afroasiatic in Africa"

(i) Semitic had an Early Bronze Age origin (approx. 5750 YBP) in the Levant, followed by an expansion of Akkadian into Mesopotamia;

(ii) Central and South Semitic diverged earlier than previously thought throughout the Levant during the Early to Middle Bronze Age transition; and

(iii) Ethiosemitic arose as the result of a single, possibly pre-Aksumite, introduction of a lineage from southern Arabia to the Horn of Africa approximately 2800 YBP.

~Andrew Kitchen, Christopher Ehret2, Shiferaw Assefa2 and Connie J. Mulligan

Bayesian phylogenetic analysis of Semitic languages identifies an Early Bronze Age origin of Semitic in the Near East
Proc. R. Soc. B (2009) 276, 2703–2710
doi:10.1098/rspb.2009.0408


 -

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
OK, it may not be stiff cloth but whatever it is
it's not hair of any kind no way no shape no how.


Not trying to convince Lyin'Ass because she doesn't
care for facts he only cares to make anything even
remotely black to be limited to sub-Sahara Africa.


Intelligent lurkers and surfers though quiet are
surely not falling for his obvious face saving
melanophobic bullshit.

He makes up a "textile" add on to a headband that has no scholarly source to support it yet calls it a fact

That is proof he's a lair

I think he knows he's lying because otherwise he would be quiet for a while looking for a source to back it up.
But he knows he's bullshytting
Some of these veterans are obsolete, need to be put out to pasture

He calls me "melanophobic" when the subject is hair, lol

quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
OK, it may not be stiff cloth but whatever it is
it's not hair of any kind no way no shape no how.



this type of certainty is a mark of foolishness

A more reasonable thing to say is you don't know if it's hair or not

--and again, if it's not hair then you don't know what type of hair is under it

 -

Well not really, this individual seems to have a high dosage of melanin, who happens to have tick wooly hair as well. So yes, you're a melanophobic person.


 -



Here the headwear is more clearly to see.

 -

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sero
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I think in first line, art is more stylistic rather than realistic. On the other hand,ancient Egyptians never portrayed foreigners as a homogeneous bunch. Likely also with the ulterior motive in showing that they represent order and that non-Egyptians represent chaos.

I was always impressed by this pre-Bronze Age collapse Egyptian mural, showing Asiatics.
As they are not portrayed homogeneous.
 -

This sacrifice scene from Mari-Syria, also gives me a nonhomogeneous Asiatic vibe. The guy also looks Dravidian.

 -

P.S. Probably most US-Citizen see themselves in everything ancient. [Wink]

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Ish Geber
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In your eyes everybody looks Dravidian.^

Anyway, what it does tell us is what the original Semites looked like.


"Mari was settled in the 5th millennium BCE."

http://looklex.com/e.o/mari.htm

 -


 -

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the lioness,
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 -


quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
These works are rarely loaned, but a remarkable selection that includes many undisputed masterpieces, brought to The Metropolitan Museum of Art for exhibition, is presented in this comprehensive publication.

Susa was settled about 4000 B.C. and has yielded striking pottery finds from that prehistoric period. A rich production followed of objects for daily use, ritual, and luxury living, finely carved in various materials or fashioned of clay.

quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
In your eyes everybody looks Dravidian.^

Anyway, what it does tell us is what the original Semites looked like.


"Mari was settled in the 5th millennium BCE."

http://looklex.com/e.o/mari.htm


Trollkillah were the people of Susa long term residents of the Mesopotamia going back tens of thousands of years of years or were they Africans who settled there 4-5,000 years ago ?

 -

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QB] .  -


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Obelisk_of_Shalmaneser_III


Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III

It is the most complete Assyrian obelisk yet discovered, and is historically significant because it is thought to display the earliest ancient depiction of a biblical figure - Hoshea King of Israel. The traditional identification of "Yaw" as Jehu has been questioned by some scholars, who proposed that the inscription refers to another king, Jehoram of Israel. Its reference to 'Parsua' is also the first known reference to the Persians.


Trollkillah, isn't it possible that this is a straight haired Black Anatolian?
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the lioness,
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 -
Bust, Roman-Ethiopian woman

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Tukuler
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I'm writing this without having
read anything posted since my
last post.

First let me apologize to the Lioness
for calling him a dumbass bitch. I was
inebriated at the time. However I don't
retract the Lyin'Ass epithet and will
continue to sparingly use it when felt
appropriate.

And yes he did introduce the Archer
hi-res image although I did scour
GOOGLE for Elamite images and that's
how I found it. I tend to skim or
dismiss most of the Lioness' posts
without bothering to read them.

Painful as it was, I have taken time to
read and digest his relevant posts on pp
4 & 5 up to # 000205. I notice his Louvre
quote says that what I took for textile is
actually metal. Apparently he overlooked
that because afterward he continued to
call it straight / wavy hair. The Louvre
supports my position that it is not hair.

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

their thick curly hair is massed at the nape of
the neck, held back by a diadem of beaten metal.
[...]
The artists who worked for Darius may have revived
a technique developed at Susa by the Elamites in the
Late Elamite Period at the end of the second millennium.
[...]
Were these men the ‘Immortals,’ the élite regiment of 10,000
men? Or might they rather represent an ideal image, repeated
to infinity, of the ‘Persian people,’ a constituent element
of the unified empire brought together under the rule of the
king, to whom it might have been necessary to accord a special
place in the old Elamite capital of Susa?

Darius' so-called 'Frieze of the Archers'
stands in the Elamite once capital city
Susa, whence their tag Susian, and its
execution appears of Elamite engineering.


Why have I been IDing the Archer as Elamite?

That goes back to my readings of various old
books and some not so old popular ones. I have
background but no longer have all the books I
once owned, hence no ready reference as in my
first couple of years here.

So I am not coming at this fresh.
But sometimes having a background is
a hindrance versus being fresh to the
subject matter because without constantly
revisiting the books recall can become iffy.


The Lioness wrote the Archer is Persian.

That is in keeping with Herodotus who says
the 10,000 Immortals were all Persian (at
that time Elamites weren't yet assimilated
into the Persians but still were known as
Cissians and Susians).


Instead of lured into debate mode
I should've remained a discussant.
Not rushing but taking time to do
further research rather than rely
on memory.

So I will have to look into why my only
remaining ancient SW Asian art source,
Views of the Biblical World, refers to
that particular Archers as Elamite.

Maybe that's outdated. Until so proven
I maintain they are Elamites. An other
archer scene is identified as Medes in
that book. I can't see a difference in
the "Medes" hair compared to the Elamites
there except they don't have forelocks
(at the "pixel" resolution available to me).


In Assyrian and Persian reliefs many
peoples spanning Asia Minor, Levant,
Persian Gulf have 'blow' hair, i.e.,
* loosely woolly or
* thick waves or
* a combination of both
that is compressed by headgear.

Many images of bare headed Assyrians,
show straight / finely wavy hair at the
root and most of the strand. It only ends
curly at the shoulder and slightly above.
I'm not a hairdresser but I've never seen
woolly hair straightened at the root AND
flopping way down THEN natural only at
shoulder level.


Also even though some hairdoos indicate
a national style not every individual in the
nation would have the same texture of
hair in general, something I never before
considered until systematically reviewing
the art for hair details over the hours.


Coming up: aerial view of one Persian's hair
I wrote about years ago but never could scan
and post -- I recently rebought the book it
was in.


Meanwhile an interesting sidebar: http://iranian.com/Satire/2001/June/Hair/index.html

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Tukuler
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Apparently the authors of Views
based themselves on sources more
modern than Herodotus when labelling
some Archers Elamites and others Medes.


 -

A. T. Holmstead

History of the Persian Empire

Chicago&London: University of Chicago Press, 1948


 -
Courtesy of K. E. Eduljee

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -


quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
These works are rarely loaned, but a remarkable selection that includes many undisputed masterpieces, brought to The Metropolitan Museum of Art for exhibition, is presented in this comprehensive publication.

Susa was settled about 4000 B.C. and has yielded striking pottery finds from that prehistoric period. A rich production followed of objects for daily use, ritual, and luxury living, finely carved in various materials or fashioned of clay.

quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
In your eyes everybody looks Dravidian.^

Anyway, what it does tell us is what the original Semites looked like.


"Mari was settled in the 5th millennium BCE."

http://looklex.com/e.o/mari.htm


Trollkillah were the people of Susa long term residents of the Mesopotamia going back tens of thousands of years of years or were they Africans who settled there 4-5,000 years ago ?

 -

You are hilarious, funny. While I already posted the below along. And yet you have to show us your favorite greek poster boy writer Herodotus on the Elamite, and for a fact we know that the Susa/ Elamite "in general" don't look like the modern people who settle that region nowadays. These questions need to be answered. But to answer your question, most likely it's a combination of both. Considering the post-Natufian settlements.


quote:
8 Cush had a son named Nimrod, who became the world's first great conqueror. 9 By the Lord's help he was a great hunter, and that is why people say, “May the Lord make you as great a hunter as Nimrod!” 10 At first his kingdom included Babylon, Erech, and Accad, all three of them in Babylonia. 11 From that land he went to Assyria and built the cities of Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah,

12 and Resen, which is between Nineveh and the great city of Calah.


--Moshe et al.

Genesis 10.8-12


quote:
"A potential issue that could in theory influence our findings is that the exact population contributing to African ancestry in West Eurasians is unknown. To gain insight into the African source populations, we carried out PCA analyses, which suggested that the African ancestry in West Eurasians is at least as closely related to East Africans (e.g. Hapmap3 Luhya (LWK)) as to West Africans (e.g. Nigerian Yoruba (YRI)) (the same analyses show that there is no evidence of relatedness to Chadic populations like Bulala) (Text S5 and Figure S12).

We also used the 4 Population Test to assess whether the tree ((LWK, YRI),(West Eurasian, CEU)) is consistent with the data, and found no evidence for a violation,

which is consistent with a mixture of either West African or East African ancestors or both contributing to the African ancestry in West Eurasians (Table S14; Figure S13). Historically, a mixture of West and East African ancestry is plausible, since African gene flow into West Eurasia is documented from both West Africa during Roman times [34] and from East Africa during migrations from Egypt [7]. It is important to point out, however, that the difficulty of pinpointing the exact African source population is not expected to bias our inferences about the total proportion and date of mixture. The f4 Ancestry Estimation method is unbiased even when we use a poor surrogates for the true ancestral African population (as long as the phylogeny is correct), as we confirmed by repeating analyses replacing YRI with LWK, and obtaining similar results (Table S15).Our ROLLOFF admixture date estimates are also similar whether we use LWK or YRI to represent ancestral African population (Table S15), as predicted by the theory.



--Moorjani et al.


quote:

"These results indicate that the ancestor of all Semitic languages in our dataset was being spoken in the Near East no earlier than approximately 7400 YBP, after having after having diverged from Afroasiatic in Africa"

(i) Semitic had an Early Bronze Age origin (approx. 5750 YBP) in the Levant, followed by an expansion of Akkadian into Mesopotamia;

(ii) Central and South Semitic diverged earlier than previously thought throughout the Levant during the Early to Middle Bronze Age transition; and

(iii) Ethiosemitic arose as the result of a single, possibly pre-Aksumite, introduction of a lineage from southern Arabia to the Horn of Africa approximately 2800 YBP.

-- (Ehret 1995; Ehret et al. 2004; Blench 2006).

 -


 -

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -
Bust, Roman-Ethiopian woman

Yeah, it's beautiful isn't?


 -

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QB] .  -


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Obelisk_of_Shalmaneser_III


Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III

It is the most complete Assyrian obelisk yet discovered, and is historically significant because it is thought to display the earliest ancient depiction of a biblical figure - Hoshea King of Israel. The traditional identification of "Yaw" as Jehu has been questioned by some scholars, who proposed that the inscription refers to another king, Jehoram of Israel. Its reference to 'Parsua' is also the first known reference to the Persians.


Trollkillah, isn't it possible that this is a straight haired Black Anatolian?
Could be, the headwear was common in the region (Northern part). Other than that the images tell nothing, as far as I'm concerned.
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Let's research Susa / Elam headgear,


quote:
 -

This example of military headgear is elaborately decorated with three figures on the front. The central one is a male water deity who holds a flowing vase at his chest. He has a multiple horned crown, a beard, curled hair, and a mountainlike or scale pattern on the lower body like the one on the background. The top of the garment crisscrosses his chest. He is flanked by two female deities with horned crowns who hold their hands up in supplication. Their robes are flounced and they wear necklaces and bracelets. Hovering over the figures is a raptor-like bird with carefully delineated feathers. At the back is a decorated tube that may have held an actual feather plume. All of these elements were carved from bitumen and overlaid with silver and then gold foil with incised decoration, a technique that, along with the style and types of the figures, point to Elam as the source. The water god might be either the Elamite Inshushinak or Napirisha, similar to Ea, the Mesopotamian god of the sweet waters.
Such a helmet would have been worn by a warrior of high rank, and perhaps on special occasions rather than in actual battle. The representations of protective and important deities could certainly have been apotropaic for the wearer.

Helmet with divine figures beneath a bird with outstretched wings, 14th century B.C.; Middle Elamite period
Southwestern Iran
Bronze; gold foil over bitumen; H. 6 1/2 in. (16.5 cm)
Fletcher Fund, 1963 (63.74)
SEE COMPLETE RECORD .


http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/63.74

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quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
[ And yet you have to show us your favorite greek poster boy writer Herodotus on the Elamite,

Is this to try to trick me into doing the research for you ???

funny thing is that he didn't mention the Elamites, lol

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quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Let's research Susa / Elam headgear,


quote:
 -

This example of military headgear is elaborately decorated with three figures on the front. The central one is a male water deity who holds a flowing vase at his chest. He has a multiple horned crown, a beard, curled hair, and a mountainlike or scale pattern on the lower body like the one on the background. The top of the garment crisscrosses his chest. He is flanked by two female deities with horned crowns who hold their hands up in supplication. Their robes are flounced and they wear necklaces and bracelets. Hovering over the figures is a raptor-like bird with carefully delineated feathers. At the back is a decorated tube that may have held an actual feather plume. All of these elements were carved from bitumen and overlaid with silver and then gold foil with incised decoration, a technique that, along with the style and types of the figures, point to Elam as the source. The water god might be either the Elamite Inshushinak or Napirisha, similar to Ea, the Mesopotamian god of the sweet waters.
Such a helmet would have been worn by a warrior of high rank, and perhaps on special occasions rather than in actual battle. The representations of protective and important deities could certainly have been apotropaic for the wearer.

Helmet with divine figures beneath a bird with outstretched wings, 14th century B.C.; Middle Elamite period
Southwestern Iran
Bronze; gold foil over bitumen; H. 6 1/2 in. (16.5 cm)
Fletcher Fund, 1963 (63.74)
SEE COMPLETE RECORD .


http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/63.74

Ok, I'll help out with a close up on the center figure


 -

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
[ And yet you have to show us your favorite greek poster boy writer Herodotus on the Elamite,

Is this to try to trick me into doing the research for you ???

funny thing is that he didn't mention the Elamites, lol

Herodotus is your favorite classical writer. Aren't you aware of his writings on the Elam? It's not a trick, it's an acknowledgement.
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quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
[ And yet you have to show us your favorite greek poster boy writer Herodotus on the Elamite,

Is this to try to trick me into doing the research for you ???

funny thing is that he didn't mention the Elamites, lol

Herodotus is your favorite classical writer. Aren't you aware of his writings on the Elam? It's not a trick, it's an acknowledgement.
Herodotus didn't write about Elam so why continue being silly ?
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quote:
Oldest Hebrew Text Is Evidence for Bible Stories?

It's not known whether the Judeans or the Philistines controlled the strategic fortress overlooking the Elah Valley, which was surrounded by nearly 3,000-foot-long (700-meter-long) fortifications built of massive stones.

But Garfinkel believes the site was most likely the westernmost outpost maintained by the Kingdom of Judea, which controlled land in southwest Asia and Palestine and was a predecessor to the Kingdom of Israel.

For instance, pottery at the fortress is similar to that found at other Israelite sites, and there are no pig remains—an indicator that often distinguishes Israelite from Philistine sites.

The newfound Hebrew text has also added new evidence of Judean rule, since key words indicate the text is most likely Hebrew.


(Related: "4,000-Year-Old Tombs Found Near Jerusalem Mall" [November 21, 2006].)


Proving the Bible?

Garfinkel believes the Elah site and newfound writing could provide historic evidence of the United Monarchy in the tenth century B.C.

That's when King David is said to have united Judea and Israel, establishing a large kingdom that stretched between the Nile River in present-day Egypt and the Euphrates in Iraq, according to the Bible.

Though most researchers don't believe this kingdom existed, evidence from the site and pottery shard seems to support the idea of a strong central administration based in nearby Jerusalem, as detailed in the Bible, Garfinkel said.

(Related: "Jerusalem Tunnel Linked to Bible" [September 11, 2003].)




"There is a big debate if the biblical tradition is accurate history or mythology written hundreds of years later … But this is the first time in the archaeology of Israel we have evidence that in the time of King David such heavily fortified cities were built."

ABC Evolution

The ancient text may also shed light on the evolution of the world's alphabetic languages.

"This is the first time that we have a Proto-Canaanite inscription dated in [the context of] an archaeological site from the tenth century B.C.," Garfinkel said.

"This is a major contribution to the understanding of writing in the world."

The evolution of alphabetic scripts, which had their origins in Proto-Canaanite some 3,700 years ago, was one of humankind's greatest intellectual achievements, experts say.

"This allowed everyone to read and write. Before this, Sumerian scripts and Egyptian hieroglyphs were very complicated writing techniques … only trained scribes could read and write in the ancient Near East," Garfinkel said.

Archaeological Doubts

Tel Aviv University archaeologist Israel Finkelstein, who is not involved in the Elah excavations, agreed the site is very important, but has significant concerns with Garfinkel's interpretations of the findings.

Immediately drawing ties between the site and the Kingdom of Judea is a mistake, he said—and it might well have been Philistine in origin.

Also, due to the small number of samples, the carbon-14 dating of the site is also not as precise as it should be, he added.

"We need to wait for more samples. It's not enough to date the site based on two [olive pits]," he said.

He also expressed doubts about the centerpiece of Garfinkel's findings—the text.

"I am prepared to predict that it will be very difficult to determine whether the text is, in fact, Hebrew. There will be evidence indicating various possibilities," he said.

"In the nature of its discovery, this [piece of pottery] is also not unusual. There is a group of late Proto-Canaanite [pottery shards] from the same chronological phase that have been found in various sites on the coastal plain—none of them were discovered in Judea proper."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/11/081103-hebrew-text_2.html
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
[ And yet you have to show us your favorite greek poster boy writer Herodotus on the Elamite,

Is this to try to trick me into doing the research for you ???

funny thing is that he didn't mention the Elamites, lol

Herodotus is your favorite classical writer. Aren't you aware of his writings on the Elam? It's not a trick, it's an acknowledgement.
Herodotus didn't write about Elam so why continue being silly ?
But Herodotus traveled to west Asia, didn't he?
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Let's research Susa / Elam headgear,


quote:
 -

This example of military headgear is elaborately decorated with three figures on the front.


The central one is a male water deity who holds a flowing vase at his chest. He has a multiple horned crown, a beard, curled hair, and a mountainlike or scale pattern on the lower body like the one on the background. The top of the garment crisscrosses his chest. He is flanked by two female deities with horned crowns who hold their hands up in supplication. Their robes are flounced and they wear necklaces and bracelets. Hovering over the figures is a raptor-like bird with carefully delineated feathers. At the back is a decorated tube that may have held an actual feather plume. All of these elements were carved from bitumen and overlaid with silver and then gold foil with incised decoration, a technique that, along with the style and types of the figures, point to Elam as the source. The water god might be either the Elamite Inshushinak or Napirisha, similar to Ea, the Mesopotamian god of the sweet waters.
Such a helmet would have been worn by a warrior of high rank, and perhaps on special occasions rather than in actual battle. The representations of protective and important deities could certainly have been apotropaic for the wearer.

Helmet with divine figures beneath a bird with outstretched wings, 14th century B.C.; Middle Elamite period
Southwestern Iran
Bronze; gold foil over bitumen; H. 6 1/2 in. (16.5 cm)
Fletcher Fund, 1963 (63.74)
SEE COMPLETE RECORD .


http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/63.74

Ok, I'll help out with a close up on the center figure


 -

I didn't ask for help, but since you're on this quest...you'll may explain what these figurines represent. From the Helmet with divine figures beneath a bird with outstretched wings, 14th century B.C.; Middle Elamite period.


 -

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http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/cissians-gk

CISSIANS is a name for the Susians, the Elamite inhabitants of Susiana (Strabo 15.3.2; Stephanus Byzantius, s.v. Soûsa); the Cissians were mentioned by several Greek authors, the earliest of whom was Aeschylus, who called Susa (mégʾ ástu Sousídos “the great city of Susiana”) tò Kissíōn pólisma “the town of the Cissians” (Persae 120; cf. 17).

Herodotus provided many details on the Cissians

______________________________

wikipedia:

Kassites

Herodotus was almost certainly[citation needed] referring to Kassites when he described "Asiatic Ethiopians" in the Persian army that invaded Greece in 492 BC. Herodotus was presumably[citation needed] repeating an account that had used the name "Cush", or something similar, to describe the Kassites; the similar name "Kush" was also, purely by coincidence, a name for Ethiopia. A similar confusion of Kassites with Ethiopians is evident in various ancient Greek accounts of the Trojan war hero Memnon, who was sometimes described as a "Cissian" and founder of Susa, and other times as Ethiopian. According to Herodotus, the "Asiatic Ethiopians" lived not in Cissia, but to the north, bordering on "Paricanians" who in turn bordered on the Medes. The Kassites were not geographically linked to Kushites and Ethiopians, nor is there any documentation describing them as similar in appearance, and the Kassite language is regarded as a language isolate, utterly unrelated to any language of Ethiopia or Kush/Nubia,[9] although more recently a possible relationship to the Hurro-Urartian family of Asia Minor has been proposed.[10] However, the evidence for its genetic affiliation is meager due to the scarcity of extant texts.

_______________________________________

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=8;t=008814;replyto=000000

Herodotus, The Persian Wars

Translated by George Rawlinson (1858–60)

Book VII

[7.70] The eastern Ethiopians -
for two nations of this name served in the army - were marshalled with the Indians.
They differed in nothing
from the other Ethiopians,
save in their language, and the character of their hair.
For the eastern Ethiopians have straight hair,
while they of Libya are more woolly-haired than any other people in the world.


_______________________

A fillet or circlet is a round band worn around the head and over the hair. Elaborate and costly versions of these eventually evolved into crowns, but fillets could be made from woven bands of fabric, leather, beads or metal. Fillets are unisex, and are especially prevalent in archaic to renaissance dress.

_______________________________


http://www.piney.com/Heredotus7.html


Now these were the nations that took part in this expedition. The Persians, who wore on their heads the soft hat called the tiara, and about their bodies, tunics with sleeves of divers colours, having iron scales upon them like the scales of a fish. Their legs were protected by trousers; and they bore wicker shields for bucklers; their quivers hanging at their backs, and their arms being a short spear, a bow of uncommon size, and arrows of reed. They had likewise daggers suspended from their girdles along their right thighs. Otanes, the father of Xerxes' wife, Amestris, was their leader. This people was known to the Greeks in ancient times by the name of Cephenians; but they called themselves and were called by their neighbours, Artaeans. It was not till Perseus, the son of Jove and Danae, visited Cepheus the son of Belus, and, marrying his daughter Andromeda, had by her a son called Perses (whom he left behind him in the country because Cepheus had no male offspring), that the nation took from this Perses the name of Persians.

The Medes had exactly the same equipment as the Persians; and indeed the dress common to both is not so much Persian as Median. They had for commander Tigranes, of the race of the Achaemenids. These Medes were called anciently by all people Arians; but when Media, the Colchian, came to them from Athens, they changed their name. Such is the account which they themselves give.

The Cissians were equipped in the Persian fashion, except in one respect:- they wore on their heads, instead of hats, fillets. Anaphes, the son of Otanes, commanded them.



 -

 -

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/cissians-gk

CISSIANS is a name for the Susians, the Elamite inhabitants of Susiana (Strabo 15.3.2; Stephanus Byzantius, s.v. Soûsa); the Cissians were mentioned by several Greek authors, the earliest of whom was Aeschylus, who called Susa (mégʾ ástu Sousídos “the great city of Susiana”) tò Kissíōn pólisma “the town of the Cissians” (Persae 120; cf. 17).

Herodotus provided many details on the Cissians

______________________________

wikipedia:

Kassites

Herodotus was almost certainly[citation needed] referring to Kassites when he described "Asiatic Ethiopians" in the Persian army that invaded Greece in 492 BC. Herodotus was presumably[citation needed] repeating an account that had used the name "Cush", or something similar, to describe the Kassites; the similar name "Kush" was also, purely by coincidence, a name for Ethiopia. A similar confusion of Kassites with Ethiopians is evident in various ancient Greek accounts of the Trojan war hero Memnon, who was sometimes described as a "Cissian" and founder of Susa, and other times as Ethiopian. According to Herodotus, the "Asiatic Ethiopians" lived not in Cissia, but to the north, bordering on "Paricanians" who in turn bordered on the Medes. The Kassites were not geographically linked to Kushites and Ethiopians, nor is there any documentation describing them as similar in appearance, and the Kassite language is regarded as a language isolate, utterly unrelated to any language of Ethiopia or Kush/Nubia,[9] although more recently a possible relationship to the Hurro-Urartian family of Asia Minor has been proposed.[10] However, the evidence for its genetic affiliation is meager due to the scarcity of extant texts.

_______________________________________

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=8;t=008814;replyto=000000

Herodotus, The Persian Wars

Translated by George Rawlinson (1858–60)

Book VII

[7.70] The eastern Ethiopians -
for two nations of this name served in the army - were marshalled with the Indians.
They differed in nothing
from the other Ethiopians,
save in their language, and the character of their hair.
For the eastern Ethiopians have straight hair,
while they of Libya are more woolly-haired than any other people in the world.

I think we are getting somewhere, [Cool]


Susians was located in west Asia, so logically the Susa were referred to as Ethiopians from Asia. Not surprised there.

 -



Limestone wall panel, incomplete; lower register, Battle of Til-Tuba (Battle of the River Ulai) relief; shows Assyrians defeating Elamites of southern Iran; battle scene on lower half; Assyrians attacking from left; critical events are picked out; execution of the Elamite King, Teumman and his son Tammaritu, river Ulai on right; upper register shows review of prisoners deported after campaign.

© The Trustees of the British Museum


http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details/collection_image_gallery.aspx?assetId=111334&objectId=277958&partId=1


 -


The King's Head
Zainab Bahrani
Iraq
Vol. 66, Nineveh. Papers of the 49th Rencontre Assyriologique Internationale, Part One (2004), pp. 115-119
Published by: British Institute for the Study of Iraq

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 -

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/achaemenids/achaemenid_army.php
 -
 -

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/achaemenids/achaemenid_army.php
 -
 -

Nice post,


By now we can conclude that several ethnic groups lived in that region during the same period and over the span of time. And most of these populations had wooly hair texture and even dark skin complexion.


Yet, they manage to show this.


 -

It just shows how they are actually hidding from the facts.

quote:
History of Iran: Achaemenid Army


Achaemenid Army
By: Professor A. Sh. Shahbazi


These life sized "Immortal Guard" in richly ornamental robes wear the twisted headband typical of native Iranians from Susa.The Achaemenian/Achaemenid Army is well known through descriptions by Herodotus, Xenophon, and Arrian as well as by illustrations on Persepolitan and Greco-Persian monuments. Of particular importance for the topic are the Greek representations of Persian warriors and the evidence of the so-called Alexander Sarcophagus from Sidon. The Persians whom Cyrus the Great united did not possess a professional army: as in days of old, the "people" of a region was represented by its backbone, the "military force," so the two words were used synonymously in one Old Persian term, kara (cognate with Lithuanian karias/karis "war, army," Gothic harjis "army," and German Heer "army,"), a sense still retained in the New Persian term kas-o kar "relatives and supporters."

At first the Achaemenid army consisted wholly of Iranian warriors, and even when other regions were subjugated, Iranian formed the nucleus of the imperial army. Darius the Great advises his successor: "If thus thou shalt think: `May I not feel fear of (any) other,' protect this Persian kara; if the Persian kara shall be protected, thereafter by the will of Ahuramazda happiness shall come down uninterruptedly and eternally upon this royal house". With the expansion of the petty kingdom of Persis into a world-empire embracing all Iranian groups from Central Asia to the Danube, a standing army was formed from Persians, Medes, and closely related peoples, and an imperial army was organized by incorporating warriors of all subject nations. Persepolitan representations, and official Persian economic and military documents ultimately used by Herodotus prove that the closer a nation was to the Persians, the more it shared in the domination of the empire by paying less tribute but contributing more soldiers. Thus, the Medes who had the second position in the empire furnished more soldiers than others and indeed many of the imperial generals were chosen from the Medes (Mazares, Harpagus, Taxmaspada, Datis, etc.). Then came the Sacians, Bactrians, Hyrcanians, and other East Iranian groups.

The general term for the professional army was spada. This consisted of infantry (pasti), cavalry (asabari "horse-borne," and occasionally usabari "camel-borne"), and charioteers (only the noblest warriors used the then obsolete but symbolic chariot), and a large number of camp followers. From the moment they met the Greeks, the Iranians incorporated subject or mercenary Greeks in their army. As the time went by, not only Iranian satraps in Asia Minor but also the King of Kings employed Greek mercenaries, each of whom received free board and a monthly wage (a gold Daric per month in 401 BCE). By the time of Alexander, these mercenaries had become a regular part of the spada and their leaders had been incorporated into Iranian aristocracy. They played a major role in Greco-Iranian cultural relations, and helped an eastward expansion of Greek culture.

The size of the imperial army was never as large as the Greeks exaggerated. Careful examination of topography, logistics, organization of the spada, and official battle orders enable historians to arrive at reasonable figures for Iranian forces. Thus, Xerxes' 3,000,000 fighting men or 2,641,610 soldiers and an equal number of attendants are reduced to 70,000 infantry and 9,000 horsemen; the 900,000-strong army of Artaxerxes II at Cunaxa was in reality no more than 40,000, and the 1,040,000 soldiers of Darius III at Gaugamela is brought down to 34,000 cavalry and some infantry. Unfortunately, historians have seldom paid attention to these overstatements, accordingly, their judgements of Iranian tactics, strategy, and motives have been impaired by faulty calculations.

The organization of the spada was based on a decimal system "far superior to anything on the Greek side" and was not employed in any Asiatic army until the Mongols. Ten men composed a company under a daθapati; ten companies made up a battalion under a θatapati; ten battalions formed a division under a hazarapati; and ten divisions comprised a corps under a *baivarapati. The whole spada was led by a supreme commander (probably spadapati, although a generalissimo with full civil authority was called karana [Greek karanos]), who was either the King of Kings himself or a trusted close relative or friend (e.g., Mazares the Mede led Cyrus the Great’s army and Datis the Mede that of Darius of the Great at Marathon). A characteristic of the Achaemenid period is that commanders and dignitaries participated in actual fighting, and many of them lost their lives in action.


The training of the Iranian nobility was arduous. As a youth, the Iranian was schooled-in companies of fifty-in running, swimming, horse grooming, tilling the land, tending the cattle, making various handicrafts, and getting accustomed to standing at watch; he would be trained in the arts of the chase (both afoot and on horseback), archery, throwing the spear and javelin, and of sustaining forced marches in unfriendly climate. At twenty he started his military profession which lasted till the age of The training of the Iranian nobility was arduous. As a youth, the Iranian was schooled-in companies of fifty-in running, swimming, horse grooming, tilling the land, tending the cattle, making various handicrafts, and getting accustomed to standing at watch; he would be trained in the arts of the chase (both afoot and on horseback), archery, throwing the spear and javelin, and of sustaining forced marches in unfriendly climate. At twenty he started his military profession which lasted till the age of fifty as a foot soldier or a rider. The elitist groups were trained for both tasks. Thus, Darius says proudly: "Trained am I both with hands and with feet. As a horseman I am a good horseman. As a bowman I am a good bowman both afoot and on horseback. As a spearman I am a good spearman both afoot and on horseback". The foot soldier carried a short sword (acinaces), a spear with wooden shaft and metal head and butt, a quiver full of arrows of reed with bronze or iron heads, and a bow about one meter long with ends formed in animals' heads, and a case which combined the bow-case and quiver-holder. A symbol of kingship and the Iranian national arm, the bow was held in the hand of the King of Kings on his tomb and coins. Battle-axe was also used, especially by North Iranians. For protection, the infantryman relied on his wicker shield (made of sticks evidently threaded through a wet sheet of leather capable of stopping arrows). The shield was either small and crescent-shaped or large and rectangular; the latter could be planted in the ground allowing the archer to discharge his arrows from behind it. Some guards carried the large "figure-of-eight" -shaped shield known as the Boeotian, while the Gandharans carried round shields not dissimilar to those of Greek hoplites. Some Iranians wore metal helmets, but only the Egyptians and the Mesopotamian contingents wore armour for body protection.

The elite infantry had variegated costumes: either the fluted hat, short cape over a shirt, pleated skirt and strapped shoes of the Elamite court dress, or the conical felt hat, tight-fitting tunic and trousers and boots of the Median cavalry suit. One division of the infantry comprised "one thousand spearmen, the noblest and bravest of the Persians" who formed a special royal guard; their spears had golden apples as butts from which they were called the Apple-bearers. As a prince, Darius served in this guard of spearmen under Cambyses. Their commander was the hazarapati of the empire, who, as the officer next to the emperor, possessed vast political power. All members of this guard fell at Plataea defending their position. One corps of the spada consisted of ten thousand elite Iranian foot soldiers, the so-called "Immortal Guard", whose "number was at no time either greater or less than 10,000". These had variegated costumes and acted as the Imperial Guards. "Of these one thousand carried spears with golden pomegranate at the lower end instead of spikes; and these encircled the other nine thousand, who bore on their spears pomegranates of silver".


The cavalry had been instrumental in conquering subject lands, and it retained its importance to the last days of the Achaemenid empire. The horseman was equipped more or less like the foot soldier; but he carried two javelins, one for throwing and one for fending-at least this was the case in Xenophon's time. Some wore metal helmets and padded linen corselets covered with metal scales. A Babylonian document dated to the second year of Darius II lists the requirements of a horseman as follows: a horse along with its girdle and bridle, a helmet, a cuirass of iron, a bronze shield, 120 arrows, a mace of iron, and two iron spears. There were also units of camel-borne troops, and some riding chariots and scythed-chariots, but these were very seldom effective against massed infantry. At Gaugamela 15 elephants were also present but their action is not recorded. Various divisions bore particular standards (Herodotus 9.59), but the imperial banner was a golden eagle with outstretched wings borne on a spear at the side of the commander-in-chief of the army.

Apart from the standing army, the rest of the levies were recruited when the need arose, and it took a long time, sometimes years, to muster a grand army. There were many Iranian garrisons in important centres of the empire, and satraps and governors also had their guards and local levies, but these could not be depleted to form an army on short notice because the danger of revolt was always present. Tribal troops, especially from East Iran, were more readily available. Levies were summoned to a recruiting station (*handaisa) where they were marshaled and reviewed. Campaigns usually started in early spring. Provisions were stored at various magazines along the route of the army, and were also brought with it in baggage-trains. Royal and religious emblems accompanied the centre of the army where the commander had his position: the eagle standard and the holy fire in portable fire-holders attended by Magi chanting hymns, and the sacred chariots of Miθra, Ahura Mazda and others. Mounted scouts were sent in advance to watch the enemy's movements. There was also an excellent system of communication: couriers on the royal road changed horses at short intervals and speedily conveyed their messages to their destinations; also by their light and mirror signals the King of Kings in Susa and Ecbatana received the news from the whole empire-it is claimed-on the same day. Fire signals communicating the news from towers and heights were widely used with good results. Fortified gates were set up in narrow passes leading into various provinces not only for custom checks but also for stopping the advance of an enemy.

The Iranians disliked night marches and did not attack at night; their daily marches were, however, in slow pace because of the heavy baggage-train which often comprised litters for conveying the wives and concubines of the commanders. When night fell, they encamped in a flat area, and if they were approaching the enemy, they dug a ditch and set up ramps of sand-bags around it. Rivers were forded by using rafts, boat-bridges, or inflated skins or simply by riding across on horses and camels.

Before the battle (hamarana), a council of war was held and plans of action discussed. The line of battle was usually drawn up as follows: the foot archers were stationed in the front, flanked by cavalry and supported by light-armed and heavier-armed infantry. The commander-in-chief occupied the centre, observing the lines and directing the actions from an elevated point, where he was best protected, and his orders were received by both wings at the same time. When the battle was joined the archers discharged their arrows, and the slingers threw their stone missiles (lead missiles with longer range became fashionable from 400 BCE, and an actual lead bullet bearing the name of Tissaphernes in Greek has survived). The aim was to throw the enemy lines into confusion. The effective range of the Persian archer was about 120 yards. Then the heavier infantry with spear and sword moved in, supported by cavalry attacking the flanks.


These tactics worked well against Asiatic armies, but failed against heavy-armed Greek infantry (hoplites) and Macedonian phalanxes: the arrows were simply stopped by the body armour and the huge shield of the hoplites, and once the hand to hand combat began, no amount of personal bravery could compensate for the Iranians' lack of armour and their inferior offensive weapons. At the battle of Plataea, for instance, a fierce hand-to-hand combat raged between the Iranians and the Greek hoplites: The Iranians "many times seized hold of the Greek spears and broke them; for in boldness and warlike spirit the Iranians were not a whit inferior to the Greeks; but they were without shields, untrained, and far below the enemy in respect of skill in arms. Sometimes singly, sometimes in bodies of ten, now fewer and now more in number, they dashed forward upon the Spartan ranks, and so perished". Another weakness of the Iranians was the attitude towards their commander: with an able and farsighted general, they displayed unsurpassed courage, but the same men took to disorderly flight as soon as the commander was killed or forced to flee. Knowing that the King of Kings was the heart of his army, Cyrus the Younger ordered Clearchus-his Greek mercenary leader-to attack the centre where the King of Kings was stationed: "and if," he said, "we are victorious there, our whole task [of defeating his army] is accomplished,".

Cyrus the Younger who knew both the Iranian and Greek armies, tactics and strategies, nearly succeeded in removing Iran's military weaknesses. He supplemented his Asiatic force with a large army of Greek hoplites, formed battalions of heavy cavalry which wore helmets. Breast-plates, and thigh-guards (this protected the sides of the horse as well), and carried a Greek sword in addition to their own arms; their horses too were protected with frontlets and breast-pieces. He made effective use of the coordination of heavy cavalry and heavy infantry-an art which later Agesilaus and especially Alexander employed to the fullest and with the best results. It must be remembered, however, that the effectiveness of the Persian shock cavalry was severely hampered by the lack of stirrup and the saddle. "Encumbered with a corslet of scale armour and poised precariously atop his steed, the horseman kept his seat only through the pressure of his knees. He will have been in serious danger of being unhorsed whenever he delivered a blow with his saber or came within reach of an enemy soldier".

The Iranians gave quarter to the adversary who requested it, and usually treated their captives with respect and kindness. Noble prisoners were accorded due honour, and princes treated royally. Even rebellious peoples were deported only to be given new lands and houses and enrolled as ordinary subjects. Personal valour was greatly esteemed, and special boons were conferred on brave servants of the empire. Records of battles were kept, detailing the course of an engagement and casualty figures. The commander-in-chief's scribe wrote down distinguished deeds of warriors: "During the whole battle Xerxes sat at the base of the hill..., and whenever he saw any of his own captains perform any worthy exploit he inquired concerning him, and the man's name was taken down by his scribe, together with the names of his father and city". In the same way Darius recorded the names of his six helpers, together with those of their fathers and nationality, adding: "Thou who shalt be king hereafter, protect well the family of these men". In 335 BCE both Athens and Thebes sought Iranian help, and the ambassadors of the latter city were received with the greatest honour at the Imperial court and their wishes were granted on the account that their forebears had rendered military assistance to Xerxes 150 years earlier.



Btw, I once heard the Miley Cyrus is of Iranian descent. Those Iranians who settled in Greece.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
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http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2010/antiquities-from-the-collection-of-the-late-clarence-day-n08723/lot.33.html


A NEO-ASSYRIAN GYPSUM ALABASTER RELIEF FRAGMENT, PROBABLY FROM THE NORTH PALACE OF ASHURBANIPAL AT NINEVEH, REIGN OF ASHURBANIPAL, 669-631 B.C.

SOTHEBY'S LOT SOLD. $ 290,500 USD

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__________________________________________


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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2010/antiquities-from-the-collection-of-the-late-clarence-day-n08723/lot.33.html


A NEO-ASSYRIAN GYPSUM ALABASTER RELIEF FRAGMENT, PROBABLY FROM THE NORTH PALACE OF ASHURBANIPAL AT NINEVEH, REIGN OF ASHURBANIPAL, 669-631 B.C.

SOTHEBY'S LOT SOLD. $ 290,500 USD

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__________________________________________


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Yeah, apparently the population was differed from today's populations living in these regions, after the slaughter and slew.

The way the story goes, is that these invasion populations remained there and as they settled in these places.

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the lioness,
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http://mznappytrini.blogspot.com/2011/02/natural-hair-meetup-in-iran.html

Natural Hair meetup.... in Iran

Loved this so much!


Curl's Gathering

The Gathering of people who have curly hair that took place in Mellat Park in Tehran, Iran on 21 jan 2011. The people in this gathering all had curly hair. It's a beautiful video on how simple things can bring people together for a fun time.

https://fa-ir.facebook.com/MooFerferia

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Mike111
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Trollkillah # Ish Gebor - Surely you must know that the man quoted above:

History of Iran: Achaemenid Army
Achaemenid Army
By: Professor A. Sh. Shahbazi

Is nothing but another stupid, lying, Turk mulatto whom the academic world ignores.

Hint: the word "Iranian" that he uses so often, had no meaning until 1935.


In 1935 the Iranian government requested those countries with which it had diplomatic relations, to call Persia "Iran". The suggestion for the change is said to have come from the Iranian ambassador to Germany, who came under the influence of the Nazis. At the time Germany was in the grip of racial fever and cultivated good relations with nations of "Arian" blood. It is said that some German friends of the ambassador persuaded him that, as with the advent of Reza Shah, Persia had turned a new leaf in its history. It was only fitting that the country be called "Iran." This would not only signal a new beginning, and bring home to the world, the new era in history, but would also signify the NOW Arian race of its population, as "Iran" is a cognate of "Arian"/Aryan and derived from it.

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IronLion
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -
http://mznappytrini.blogspot.com/2011/02/natural-hair-meetup-in-iran.html

Natural Hair meetup.... in Iran

Loved this so much!


Curl's Gathering

The Gathering of people who have curly hair that took place in Mellat Park in Tehran, Iran on 21 jan 2011. The people in this gathering all had curly hair. It's a beautiful video on how simple things can bring people together for a fun time.

https://fa-ir.facebook.com/MooFerferia

 - https://www.facebook.com/MooFerferia/photos/a.159552797392806.41774.159544064060346/872490939432318/?type=1&theater


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alTakruri
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quote:
Originally posted by Just call me Jari:


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^^^^
Roxanne

.

--------------------------------------------

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

Now moving on, revisiting the question of whether or not the Lachish figures above have afro hair or curly hair

That these necessarily represent afro textured hair
can be easily falsified by the existence of Assyrian
figures with decimated short-cropped hair, whose
hair looks grossly no different from these Lachish
figures (see the Assyrian[?] figure in the middle,
below).

 -

It goes without saying, but with no proper controls
in place (i.e. showing that short-cropped Assyrian
hair was NOT like the Lachish hairdos) one has no
way of ascertaining whether or not the Lachish folks
were depicted as having afro textured hair.

 -

In the side-view it's clear that the curls only
appear in the cross section of each hair strand
(as with the Assyrian beards and scalp hair strands).
Along their length, the hair strands are straight,
as shown by the cylindrical tube-like shapes of
the individual hair strands.

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alTakruri
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[The above poste was totally edited after I posted the below]

There are no Assyrians with hair of the Lachish
Judahites. Attention to detail reveals their
hair is like "Sudanese" in both Assyrian and
Persian art.

Yes many types of hair fit the description
bushy. That doesn't mean there are not
degrees of difference between them.

A 1:1 comparison of all the mentioned types
instructs which may be due to texture or to
styling. The Lachish Judahites and Sudanese
appear to be natural texture as we can see
it's closely cropped and is growing on the
nape of the neck not falling over the nape.


There are always those ready to denigrate
any aspect of sub-Saharan characteristics
when outside of Africa yet such folk never
question whether depictions of straight
hair are really representative of the
peoples shown having it.

It's a prevalent mentality among certain negroes.


Those who've followed this thread know what my
last image demonstrates. Years in the waiting
www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=002404;p=5#000208
the original page 1 can be found at
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=15;t=002404
the particular entry is noted
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on 22 December, 2009 05:14 PM:

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -
http://mznappytrini.blogspot.com/2011/02/natural-hair-meetup-in-iran.html

Natural Hair meetup.... in Iran

Loved this so much!


Curl's Gathering

The Gathering of people who have curly hair that took place in Mellat Park in Tehran, Iran on 21 jan 2011. The people in this gathering all had curly hair. It's a beautiful video on how simple things can bring people together for a fun time.

https://fa-ir.facebook.com/MooFerferia

 -
 -
 -



You have posted these already a dozen times. Yet, you have failed to, or rather ignore the actual evidence being prompted. In which you literally make yourself look dumber than dumb. And it's actually pathetic, the lights you'll go, will you're digging a hole deeper and deeper, for yourself. Trying to pass this off as "scientific evaluation" is merely laughable.


Have you ever read about post-Natufains? LOL


Repost for the lioness productions team.


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quote:
Susa was settled about 4000 B.C. and has yielded striking pottery finds from that prehistoric period.
Royal City of Susa: Ancient Near Eastern Treasures in the Louvre

Harper, Prudence O., Joan Aruz, and Françoise Tallon, eds. (1992)


quote:
8 Cush had a son named Nimrod, who became the world's first great conqueror. 9 By the Lord's help he was a great hunter, and that is why people say, “May the Lord make you as great a hunter as Nimrod!” 10 At first his kingdom included Babylon, Erech, and Accad, all three of them in Babylonia. 11 From that land he went to Assyria and built the cities of Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah,

12 and Resen, which is between Nineveh and the great city of Calah.


--Moshe et al.

Genesis 10.8-12


quote:
"A potential issue that could in theory influence our findings is that the exact population contributing to African ancestry in West Eurasians is unknown. To gain insight into the African source populations, we carried out PCA analyses, which suggested that the African ancestry in West Eurasians is at least as closely related to East Africans (e.g. Hapmap3 Luhya (LWK)) as to West Africans (e.g. Nigerian Yoruba (YRI)) (the same analyses show that there is no evidence of relatedness to Chadic populations like Bulala) (Text S5 and Figure S12).

We also used the 4 Population Test to assess whether the tree ((LWK, YRI),(West Eurasian, CEU)) is consistent with the data, and found no evidence for a violation,

which is consistent with a mixture of either West African or East African ancestors or both contributing to the African ancestry in West Eurasians (Table S14; Figure S13). Historically, a mixture of West and East African ancestry is plausible, since African gene flow into West Eurasia is documented from both West Africa during Roman times [34] and from East Africa during migrations from Egypt [7]. It is important to point out, however, that the difficulty of pinpointing the exact African source population is not expected to bias our inferences about the total proportion and date of mixture. The f4 Ancestry Estimation method is unbiased even when we use a poor surrogates for the true ancestral African population (as long as the phylogeny is correct), as we confirmed by repeating analyses replacing YRI with LWK, and obtaining similar results (Table S15).Our ROLLOFF admixture date estimates are also similar whether we use LWK or YRI to represent ancestral African population (Table S15), as predicted by the theory.



--Moorjani et al.


quote:

"These results indicate that the ancestor of all Semitic languages in our dataset was being spoken in the Near East no earlier than approximately 7400 YBP, after having after having diverged from Afroasiatic in Africa"

(i) Semitic had an Early Bronze Age origin (approx. 5750 YBP) in the Levant, followed by an expansion of Akkadian into Mesopotamia;

(ii) Central and South Semitic diverged earlier than previously thought throughout the Levant during the Early to Middle Bronze Age transition; and

(iii) Ethiosemitic arose as the result of a single, possibly pre-Aksumite, introduction of a lineage from southern Arabia to the Horn of Africa approximately 2800 YBP.

-- (Ehret 1995; Ehret et al. 2004; Blench 2006).

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Eurocentrism is bliss.

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike111:
Trollkillah # Ish Gebor - Surely you must know that the man quoted above:

History of Iran: Achaemenid Army
Achaemenid Army
By: Professor A. Sh. Shahbazi

Is nothing but another stupid, lying, Turk mulatto whom the academic world ignores.

Hint: the word "Iranian" that he uses so often, had no meaning until 1935.


In 1935 the Iranian government requested those countries with which it had diplomatic relations, to call Persia "Iran". The suggestion for the change is said to have come from the Iranian ambassador to Germany, who came under the influence of the Nazis. At the time Germany was in the grip of racial fever and cultivated good relations with nations of "Arian" blood. It is said that some German friends of the ambassador persuaded him that, as with the advent of Reza Shah, Persia had turned a new leaf in its history. It was only fitting that the country be called "Iran." This would not only signal a new beginning, and bring home to the world, the new era in history, but would also signify the NOW Arian race of its population, as "Iran" is a cognate of "Arian"/Aryan and derived from it.

In fact it was the link by the lioness, which I laid out here.but it's good your informing people on this. I don't know in what you based that he is Turkish, but could it be because of Uralic?


And why are the people like below ignored?


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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

Now moving on, revisiting the question of whether or not the Lachish figures above have afro hair or curly hair

That these necessarily represent afro textured hair
can be easily falsified by the existence of Assyrian
figures with decimated short-cropped hair, whose
hair looks grossly no different from these Lachish
figures (see the Assyrian[?] figure in the middle,
below).

 -

It goes without saying, but with no proper controls
in place (i.e. showing that short-cropped Assyrian
hair was NOT like the Lachish hairdos) one has no
way of ascertaining whether or not the Lachish folks
were depicted as having afro textured hair.

 -

In the side-view it's clear that the curls only
appear in the cross section of each hair strand
(as with the Assyrian beards and scalp hair strands).
Along their length, the hair strands are straight,
as shown by the cylindrical tube-like shapes of
the individual hair strands.

Some sources mention the bust as being of an Achaemenid woman.
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the lioness,
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 -
Above, an Assyrian conqueror and Judaens captured in 701 BC in the town of Lachish in Israel
We see that the portion on the Assyrian's hair marked "A" is the exact same texture as the Judaen's hair

which of the below statements is true ??

1) The Assyrian had woolly hair. It's marked "A"
The portion marked "B" has been artificially straightened

2) The Assyrian had straight hair with a slight wave. It's marked "B"
The portion marked "A" and his beard have been artificially curled
to look like woolly hair

3) The Assyrian had curly hair marked "A" It was not originally woolly, just curly.
The portion marked "B" has been artificially straightened

4) The Assyrian had straight hair with a slight wave. It's marked "B"
The portion marked "A" and his beard have been artificially curled
to look like curly hair but not curly hair which was originally woolly

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the lioness,
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It's unbelievable how when people had posted photos of African Americans suggesting similarity to ancient Mesopotamians nobody had a problem.
Yet when actual Iranian people are posted with similar hair, it's a problem

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:


It goes without saying, but with no proper controls
in place (i.e. showing that short-cropped Assyrian
hair was NOT like the Lachish hairdos) one has no
way of ascertaining whether or not the Lachish folks
were depicted as having afro textured hair.


yes, I agree
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
It's unbelievable how when people had posted photos of African Americans suggesting similarity to ancient Mesopotamians nobody had a problem.
Yet when actual Iranian people are posted with similar hair, it's a problem

What is unbelievable is that you'll post in a snap how "multiple back to Africa migrations" have taken place, and how Eurasians entered Africa, spread "all over Africa", yet with no evidence to back it up.


But when the opposite "which clearly has happened", is being represented, you fight it with tooth and nail. Or rather you'll ignore it. Because that is what has happened for 5pages straight.


By the way, who said "all those images" were of African Americans? That's just more rubble.

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:


It goes without saying, but with no proper controls
in place (i.e. showing that short-cropped Assyrian
hair was NOT like the Lachish hairdos) one has no
way of ascertaining whether or not the Lachish folks
were depicted as having afro textured hair.


yes, I agree
Sure, now all of as sudden you'll claim it's not Afro-texture hair.


http://www.lessing-photo.com/p3/080203/08020367.jpg


Have you ever read about post-Natufains? LOL

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -
Above, an Assyrian conqueror and Judaens captured in 701 BC in the town of Lachish in Israel
We see that the portion on the Assyrian's hair marked "A" is the exact same texture as the Judaen's hair

which of the below statements is true ??

1) The Assyrian had woolly hair. It's marked "A"
The portion marked "B" has been artificially straightened

2) The Assyrian had straight hair with a slight wave. It's marked "B"
The portion marked "A" and his beard have been artificially curled
to look like woolly hair

3) The Assyrian had curly hair marked "A" It was not originally woolly, just curly.
The portion marked "B" has been artificially straightened

4) The Assyrian had straight hair with a slight wave. It's marked "B"
The portion marked "A" and his beard have been artificially curled
to look like curly hair but not curly hair which was originally woolly

As told before neo-Assyria and Assyrians had several ethnic groups and populations. So, keep ignoring the obvious and rather come up with multiple choice BS questions. From the image I likely know what hair texture the Assyrian had, when I'll find a picture of some one with similar hair texture, I'll post it.




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quote:
Susa was settled about 4000 B.C. and has yielded striking pottery finds from that prehistoric period.
~Harper, Prudence O., Joan Aruz, and Françoise Tallon, eds. (1992)
Royal City of Susa: Ancient Near Eastern Treasures in the Louvre


quote:
8 Cush had a son named Nimrod, who became the world's first great conqueror. 9 By the Lord's help he was a great hunter, and that is why people say, “May the Lord make you as great a hunter as Nimrod!” 10 At first his kingdom included Babylon, Erech, and Accad, all three of them in Babylonia. 11 From that land he went to Assyria and built the cities of Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah,

12 and Resen, which is between Nineveh and the great city of Calah.


~Moshe et al.

Genesis 10.8-12


quote:
"A potential issue that could in theory influence our findings is that the exact population contributing to African ancestry in West Eurasians is unknown. To gain insight into the African source populations, we carried out PCA analyses, which suggested that the African ancestry in West Eurasians is at least as closely related to East Africans (e.g. Hapmap3 Luhya (LWK)) as to West Africans (e.g. Nigerian Yoruba (YRI)) (the same analyses show that there is no evidence of relatedness to Chadic populations like Bulala) (Text S5 and Figure S12).

We also used the 4 Population Test to assess whether the tree ((LWK, YRI),(West Eurasian, CEU)) is consistent with the data, and found no evidence for a violation,

which is consistent with a mixture of either West African or East African ancestors or both contributing to the African ancestry in West Eurasians (Table S14; Figure S13). Historically, a mixture of West and East African ancestry is plausible, since African gene flow into West Eurasia is documented from both West Africa during Roman times [34] and from East Africa during migrations from Egypt [7]. It is important to point out, however, that the difficulty of pinpointing the exact African source population is not expected to bias our inferences about the total proportion and date of mixture. The f4 Ancestry Estimation method is unbiased even when we use a poor surrogates for the true ancestral African population (as long as the phylogeny is correct), as we confirmed by repeating analyses replacing YRI with LWK, and obtaining similar results (Table S15).Our ROLLOFF admixture date estimates are also similar whether we use LWK or YRI to represent ancestral African population (Table S15), as predicted by the theory.



~Moorjani et al.


quote:


Our statistical tests of alternative Semitic histories support an initial divergence of Akkadian from ancestral Semitic over competing hypotheses (e.g. an African origin of Semitic). We estimate an Early Bronze Age origin for Semitic approximately 5750 years ago in the Levant, and further propose that contemporary Ethiosemitic languages of Africa reflect a single introduction of early Ethiosemitic from southern Arabia approximately 2800 years ago.
[…]

Semitic languages (Akkadian, Aramaic, Ge'ez, ancient Hebrew and Ugaritic) combined with archaeological evidence for the sampling dates of the epigraphic data (the time at which the materials were inscribed).

 -


"These results indicate that the ancestor of all Semitic languages in our dataset was being spoken in the Near East no earlier than approximately 7400 YBP, after having after having diverged from Afroasiatic in Africa"

(i) Semitic had an Early Bronze Age origin (approx. 5750 YBP) in the Levant, followed by an expansion of Akkadian into Mesopotamia;

(ii) Central and South Semitic diverged earlier than previously thought throughout the Levant during the Early to Middle Bronze Age transition; and

(iii) Ethiosemitic arose as the result of a single, possibly pre-Aksumite, introduction of a lineage from southern Arabia to the Horn of Africa approximately 2800 YBP.

~Andrew Kitchen, Christopher Ehret2, Shiferaw Assefa2 and Connie J. Mulligan

Bayesian phylogenetic analysis of Semitic languages identifies an Early Bronze Age origin of Semitic in the Near East
Proc. R. Soc. B (2009) 276, 2703–2710
doi:10.1098/rspb.2009.0408


 -


Eurocentrism is bliss.

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the lioness,
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Mike111
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ASS - This is TWO types:

Straight AND Curly.


 -


ASS - This is ONE type:

Curly all the Way.


 -
.


ONLY BLACK PEOPLE HAVE THIS TYPE OF HAIR!
.


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