1) why are you saying Ahmad ibn Majid was West African when biographies say he was an Arab from Oman? Where are you getting this West African thing from?
2) If the Han Dynasty Chinese invented the compass (since about 206 BC) and later adopted it for navigation in the Song Dynasty during the 11th century then why are you saying Ahmad ibn Majid born in 1421 invented the compass?
3) why do you have the painting below in your video about Ahmad ibn Majid when it is not a picture of Ahmad ibn Majid?
Published on Apr 19, 2015 In this film we discuss the West African nautical science and the great navigator Ahmad ibn Majid. It explains aspects of West African nautical science and Majid's contribution to the development of navigation in the Indian Ocean and West Indies
Ahmad ibn Majid wasn't West African or Moroccan. I don't see the connection
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posted
This is an insult to black people. As if we need to blackwash Ahmad ibn Majid to have a list of great black engineers, inventors and innovators:
There's many great black inventors and innovators:
Steve Jobs hold many patents. He didn't invent computer or cell phone by themselves, but made great improvements to them. Which made him billions of dollars and be considered of the the best inventor and innovator of our time.
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1) why are you saying Ahmad ibn Majid was West African when biographies say he was an Arab from Oman? Where are you getting this West African thing from?
2) If the Han Dynasty Chinese invented the compass (since about 206 BC) and later adopted it for navigation in the Song Dynasty during the 11th century then why are you saying Ahmad ibn Majid born in 1421 invented the compass?
3) why do you have the painting below in your video about Ahmad ibn Majid when it is not a picture of Ahmad ibn Majid?
See: R.A.G., Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam,,Muslim World, (1967) pp.284-292;
G. Ferrand, Introduction a l’astrnomie nautique des Arabes, Paris,1928 (p.247)
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: This is an insult to black people. As if we need to blackwash Ahmad ibn Majid to have a list of great black engineers, inventors and innovators:
There's many great black inventors and innovators:
Steve Jobs hold many patents. He didn't invent computer or cell phone by themselves, but made great improvements to them. Which made him billions of dollars and be considered of the the best inventor and innovator of our time.
I can excuse you because you don't respect Afro-American researchers unless they are supported by white scholars. One day you will learn that I don't write anything I can't back up. If you read my post on Abubakari you would remember that this isn't the first time I mentioned ibn Majid. It is your feeling of inferiority that won't allow you to believe that African people had such nautical science.
You depend too much on secondary research, do some original research and you will learn more about the real history of Arican/Black people. You have to visit a library everything is not on the internet.
Vasco da Gama said that he met Majid in West Africa. This means that West Africans were not just trading with the Americas, they were also trading with East Africans.
Scholars have known this for hundreds of years,yet this evidence has been ignored because people would rather believe the sole history of African people is slavery eventhough Spanish writers mentioned West Africans sailing boats up and down the Caribbean and Mexico, and African vessels in the Atlantic.
Published on Apr 19, 2015 In this film we discuss the West African nautical science and the great navigator Ahmad ibn Majid. It explains aspects of West African nautical science and Majid's contribution to the development of navigation in the Indian Ocean and West Indies
Ahmad ibn Majid wasn't West African or Moroccan. I don't see the connection
Vasco da Gama said Ibn Majid was West African. (See: G. Ferrand, Introduction a l’astrnomie nautique des Arabes, Paris,1928, p.247) We don't have any paintings of ibn Majid so this picture gives us a good example of how he may have looked since Majid was West African, and would have probably had dark skin.
posted
Here is my post on Abubakari I made on 10 August 2014.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Europeans learned about America from their travels along the West coast of Africa.Vasco da Gama, is said to have found out information concerning the West Indies from Ahmad b. Majid, of West Africa (Bazan, 1967). .
In A.D. 1312, Emperor Abubakari Muhammad , of Mali gave his throne to Mansa Musa and embarked with his fleet into the Atlantic Ocean in search of the continent opposite Africa. Archaeological and epigraphic evidence indicates that Abubakari, and or members of his expedition settled in pre-Columbian Brazil.
The Indians have a tradition that Mansar Akban was the leader of another tribe which discovered the Cunan people.This Mansar Akban, may be a reference to Mansa Abubakari, who led the Malian voyagers to the Americas.
The Manding lived in mounds along the Niger rivers. The mound cultures of ancient America were built by Africans primarily Manding. The people of the Niger Delta formed river riverine communities which were partly vegetation with some aquatic animals were eaten.
The ancient Manding built several types of homes. In ancient times they built masonry houses and cliff dwellings identical to those found in the American Southwest. In Medieval times they lived on mounds in the most watery areas in their circular huts made a stone and wood on the top and their fields in front of the mounds tilled each day.
The Malian people introduced their technology to the Americas. The Manding built dwellings depending on the topography . Near rivers they lived on mounds. In semi-arid regions they lived in cliff houses, like those found in the Southwest. Today the Dogon who trace their descent to the Mande live in identical dwellings as those found in Colorado ,where Manding inscriptions dating to the A.D. 1000 's have been found related to the Pueblo culture.
According to Cadamosto the Mali marines wore white caps on their heads and a white tunic. On the side of the skull-caps worn by the Malian martines, a white wing decoration was emblaxoned, and a feather was stuck in the middle of the skull cap.
On board each naval vessel stood a marine with a round leather shield on the arm and a short sword. Other marines were armed with bows and arrows .
Murphy reported that the Malian military wore a uniform consisting of sandles, loose fitting cotton breeches reaching down to the knees, a sleeveless tunic, and a white headdress of either cotton or leather, decorated with one or more feathers .
The major weapons of the Malian soldier included iron-pointed spears, daggers and short swords, wooden battle-clubs and the bow and arrow .
The Malians left many inscriptions in Brazil and elsewhere after they arrived in the Americas. These inscriptions are of two kinds. One group of inscriptions were meant to warn the Manding expeditionary force not to camp in certain areas.
.
. Inscriptions in this category are found at Piraicaba, Brazil. Another group of inscriptions were left in areas suitable for settlement.
Once a safe place was found for settlement, the Manding colonists built stone cities or mound habitations. One of these lost cities was found in A.D. 1753, by banderistas (bandits). .
. Wilkins, reported that these inscriptions were found in the State of Bahia,Brazil by Padre Tellesde Menezes, in Marajo near the Para-oacu and Una rivers engraved over a mausolea. They tell us that the personage buried in the Tomb was named Pe.
The most startling evidence of Malians in Brazil , is the "Brazil Tablet", discovered by Col. P.H. Fawcett in an unexplored region near the Culuene river. The interesting thing about this Tablet, was the fact it had "African pigment" and features.
The most startling evidence of Malians in Brazil , is the "Brazil Tablet", discovered by Col. P.H. Fawcett in an unexplored region near the Culuene river. The interesting thing about this Tablet, was the fact it had "African pigment" and features (printed above) .
The personage in this Tablet was an elite of Malian colony in Brazil. Evidence suggesting a Manding origin for the Brazil Tablet are 1) THE CROWN worn by the personage on the tablet; 2) the Manding inscriptions inscribed across the chest and feet of the figure on the Fawcett Tablet; and 3) the evidence of breeches similar to the Manding style military uniform worn by the personage depicted on the Fawcett Tablet.
The decipherment of these inscriptions detail the burial place, and cause of death of a Mansa or Mande King. it appears that the Mansa on the Brazil Tablet" was named Be. It tells us that Be, was buried in a hemisphere tomb (i.e.,mound) .
The Malians in South America also built their homes on top of mounds. There major centers of habitation appear to have been Panama and Venezuela in addition to Brazil. In Brazil there are many megalithic structures that seem to have there prototype in Africa. For example, in Alagoas we find many stone monuments similar to those found in West Africa, such as stone circles formed by rocks placed vertically on the ground.
The habitation mounds in Brazil are called sambuquis. Some of the sambuquis, have radio-carbon dates going back into pre-history, while many of the mounds where artifacts have been found are related to the cultures of Venezuela, and have dates contemporaneous with the Malian voyages.
In conclusion the ancient tombs and Brazil tablet indicate that Malians probably landed in Brazil. This is a significant artifact because the elite on the Brazil Tablet, wears a uniform associated with Malian marines. The discovery of a Brazil tomb dedicated to Pe, may in fact be the tomb of Be, who is depicted on the Brazil Tablet.
References: G. R. Crone, The Voyage of Cadamosto, (London,1937) pp.57-59.
E. Murphy, History of African Civilization, (New York,1972) p.111.
Harold T. Wilkins, Mysteries of Ancient South America, (Secacus, New Jersey:Citadel Press, 1974), pp.40-45; and Branco, p.146.
Winters, C.A. (1977). The influence of the Mnade scripts on American ancient writing systems. Bulletin de l'IFAN, t.39, Ser.B ,Number 2, 405-431.
Winters, C.A.(1979). Manding writing in the New World--Part 1, Journal of African Civilization, 1 (1), 81-97.
posted
Come on Dr Winters Lioness is right,his bio said he was Omani, he could still have been Black but that's just guess work but he was no Western African,and while your pic caption as him being a Black man it is as misleading as those of him being a non Black.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Come on Dr Winters Lioness is right,his bio said he was Omani, he could still have been Black but that's just guess work but he was no Western African,and while your pic caption as him being a Black man it is as misleading as those of him being a non Black.
These are my sources:
R.A.G., Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam,,Muslim World, (1967) pp.284-292;
G. Ferrand, Introduction a l’astronomie nautique des Arabes, Paris,1928 (p.247)
These sources say Da Gama met Majid in West Africa. Majid, the West African told Da Gama about travel to Indian Ocean, and the West Indies and Da Gama says he invented the compass. I did not make these things up. Are you saying Bazan, Ferrand , Da Gama is a liar? If they are lying what do they gain from lying? Given the citations, why do you make this claim?
The only reason I can deduce for your feelings about this matter is an inferiority complex. As Mike always says Europeans and Arab/Persians lie. This is probably the case with ibn Majid.
It is sad most people can't think for themselves . What do we know about Captain Da Gama. First, we know that Da Gama traveled up and down the West African coast for years, before he attempted to circumnavigate Africa to reach India. . Secondly, when Da Gama attempted to travel to India, he didn't go by way of the Meditteranean like other Europeans he went around Africa.
You say Majid was born in Oman. You shoudl ask yourself this question, if Majid was born in Oman, how did Da Gama know that he could circle Africa, safely and reach India?
But just for argument sake, lets assume that Da Gama met Majid in Oman.Think about the reality, Da Gama did not know how to get to Oman, if he did not meet Majid until he got to Oman, how did he travel around Africa to Oman--blindly. This suggest to me that Da Gama's account that he met Ahamd ibn Majid in West Africa, is the only way we can explain Da Gama reaching India safely.
Meeting Majid in West Africa, would explain how Majid told Da Gama about navigation in the Indian Ocean, that's how Da Gama knew he could find a Guide to help him make his way along the East African coast up to Oman and India.
Thirdly, why would Da Gama mention that Majid also told him about navigation among the Caribbean Islands, if Majid lived in Oman. Living in Oman, why would a navigator be interested in trading in the Caribbean when the main centers of trade at that time lied in the East.
No matter how you look at it, Da Gama meeting Majid in West Africa, has more currency than the Oman story, simply because it does not explain why Da Gama went around Africa in the first place, if he did not already know he had a great chance in sailing to India.
It is so sad that you , like most people can not accept the realities of our history. Sadly, unless a European writes something you can't believe it. You feel so inferior that to think a Black man, me, an Afro-American knows more about history than a white man is too much for your mind to accept.
My son was in the Navy. I liked the Navy because you obtained rank based on how smart you are. Your comments lead me to believe you don't think too well. Instead of waiting for Europeans to tell you this or that. Think for yourself.
posted
Look at where Oman is in relation to Africa proper West Africans were not isolated from the rest of the Islamic world they shared technology and knowledge as well as commerce, and what's with "Euro" thinking, something is either factual or not, telling others that they are infected by Eurocentric thought does not change the fact that the man is Omani regardless if he was Black or not.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Look at where Oman is in relation to Africa proper West Africans were not isolated from the rest of the Islamic world they shared technology and knowledge as well as commerce, and what's with "Euro" thinking, something is either factual or not, telling others that they are infected by Eurocentric thought does not change the fact that the man is Omani regardless if he was Black or not.
.
I think it is an issue. There are many things that can be factual--but Black people may still reject the information if it is not first said by a European. What makes this even worst is I have citations, from Europeans, claiming Majid was West African. Moreover,you can't explain how Da Gama made it to Oman, without prior directions. This makes me feel that you are prejudice, and feel white is right--Black, step back.
These are my sources:
R.A.G., Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam,,Muslim World, (1967) pp.284-292;
G. Ferrand, Introduction a l’astronomie nautique des Arabes, Paris,1928 (p.247)
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Après avoir doublé le cap de Bonne-Espérance, lorsque Vasco de Gama eut atteint Malindi sur la côte orientale d'Afrique, il put s'y procurer un pilote qui le conduisit direc- tement à Calicut. Le fait est brièvement rapporté dans le journal de bord rédigé par un des marins de l'expéditionS avec plus de détails par les premiers historiens portugais des découvertes, notamment par Barros-, Castanheda^ et Damiâo de Goes* qui donnent même le nom de ce pilote : Canaqua,
^^^ It says Vasco de Gama met ibn Majid in Malindi, coastal Kenya founded by Arab traders in the early thirteenth century. And because Vasco de Gama, according to one account, may have met ibn Majid in Africa
That does not mean ibn Majid was African ________________________________
Also:
The account of ibn Majid assisting Vasco da Gama is first described by the Ottoman historian Qutb al Din, roughly 50 years after ibn Majid's death. Tibbets asserts that the account of ibn Majid leading Vasco da Gama to India is slanderous, asserting as it does that ibn Majid (a devout Muslim) was drunk when he traded his knowledge of the route for passage back to Ras al Khaima. While there is some debate as to who Vasco da Gama's navigator was – the result of a lack of clarity in his captain's log and several competing accounts written by contemporary Portuguese scholars – according to Tibbets, the tale of ibn Majid leading Vasco da Gama is popularized largely as a result of the ascendancy of the Western narrative of world history, and is not historically accurate. Remembered as 'The Lion of the Sea', ibn Majid's true legacy was the substantial body of literature on sailing that he left behind. Arab sailing was at a pinnacle during ibn Majid's lifetime, when both Europeans and Ottomans had only a limited understanding of geography in the Indian Ocean. His Kitab al-Fawa’id fi Usul ‘Ilm al-Bahr wa ’l-Qawa’id, was widely utilized by Arab sailors and addressed celestial navigation, weather patterns and charts of dangerous areas in which to sail. This tome, in addition to his poetic works, were the true legacy of the sailor. Two of ibn Majid's famous hand-written books are now prominent exhibits in the National Library in Paris. ____________________________________
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Après avoir doublé le cap de Bonne-Espérance, lorsque Vasco de Gama eut atteint Malindi sur la côte orientale d'Afrique, il put s'y procurer un pilote qui le conduisit direc- tement à Calicut. Le fait est brièvement rapporté dans le journal de bord rédigé par un des marins de l'expéditionS avec plus de détails par les premiers historiens portugais des découvertes, notamment par Barros-, Castanheda^ et Damiâo de Goes* qui donnent même le nom de ce pilote : Canaqua,
^^^ It says Vasco de Gama met ibn Majid in Malindi, coastal Kenya founded by Arab traders in the early thirteenth century. And because Vasco de Gama, according to one account, may have met ibn Majid in Africa
That does not mean ibn Majid was African ________________________________
Also:
The account of ibn Majid assisting Vasco da Gama is first described by the Ottoman historian Qutb al Din, roughly 50 years after ibn Majid's death. Tibbets asserts that the account of ibn Majid leading Vasco da Gama to India is slanderous, asserting as it does that ibn Majid (a devout Muslim) was drunk when he traded his knowledge of the route for passage back to Ras al Khaima. While there is some debate as to who Vasco da Gama's navigator was – the result of a lack of clarity in his captain's log and several competing accounts written by contemporary Portuguese scholars – according to Tibbets, the tale of ibn Majid leading Vasco da Gama is popularized largely as a result of the ascendancy of the Western narrative of world history, and is not historically accurate. Remembered as 'The Lion of the Sea', ibn Majid's true legacy was the substantial body of literature on sailing that he left behind. Arab sailing was at a pinnacle during ibn Majid's lifetime, when both Europeans and Ottomans had only a limited understanding of geography in the Indian Ocean. His Kitab al-Fawa’id fi Usul ‘Ilm al-Bahr wa ’l-Qawa’id, was widely utilized by Arab sailors and addressed celestial navigation, weather patterns and charts of dangerous areas in which to sail. This tome, in addition to his poetic works, were the true legacy of the sailor. Two of ibn Majid's famous hand-written books are now prominent exhibits in the National Library in Paris. ____________________________________
Majid was not a pilot. It was an Indian who piloted Vasco da Gama to India.
posted
Clyde, look at you you hypocrite, Mr. Whites are inferior non-humans (yes you did say Whites were inferior and weren't human). You talk about someone being prejudice when you are prejudice (no racist) as hell, so prejudice (racist) that you have stated that Whites are inferior & aren't human, along with saying we have no history, heritage, identity, homeland,etc etc. Clean your own dang house before you go talking about how dirty someone else's house is.
Ok, that's all I have to say on this thread I'm out now, continue on now LOL Posts: 3257 | From: Madisonville, KY USA | Registered: Nov 2011
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quote:Originally posted by CelticWarrioress: Clyde, look at you you hypocrite, Mr. Whites are inferior non-humans (yes you did say Whites were inferior and weren't human). You talk about someone being prejudice when you are prejudice (no racist) as hell, so prejudice (racist) that you have stated that Whites are inferior & aren't human, along with saying we have no history, heritage, identity, homeland,etc etc. Clean your own dang house before you go talking about how dirty someone else's house is.
Ok, that's all I have to say on this thread I'm out now, continue on now LOL
you only make reactive posts, always on defence
But where are your own threads talking about white history? Where's your proactive white pride?
Are you scared to make your own threads on white heritage?
Can you take the heat?
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quote:Originally posted by CelticWarrioress: Clyde, look at you you hypocrite, Mr. Whites are inferior non-humans (yes you did say Whites were inferior and weren't human). You talk about someone being prejudice ...blah..baa..baaaa
Boy behave yourself. This is no elementary school... Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
Lioness, why should I make threads on White history?? Nobody here is the least bit interested in it except when they are trying to steal it.
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The information about Ahmad ibn Majid of West Africa , comes from T.A. Shumusky, Tri neizuesttruie totsii Akhmada ibn Madzhida lotsmana Vasko da Gamui, Moscow, 1957, and R.A.G. Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam,,Muslim World, (1967) pp.284-292. In G. Ferrand, Introduction a l’astrnomie nautique des Arabes(, Paris,1928) you can read about some of the work of ibn Majid. The identification of the West African ibn Majid is depended on the translations of Bazan because I do not read Russian.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
It gives me no pleasure to assess that this thread is a perfect example of
- doxa, - racial sympathy, - ad hominem, and - a skeletal citation methodology (not requiring any actual quotes)
to defend a thesis refuted by the inescapable facts others posted.
Bazan's writing:
... Majid, whom he met on the west coast of Africa. Arab stories say that this ibn Majid was 'intoxicated' by the Portuguese so that he would show them the way to the Indies. He is regarded as the author of a handbook on navigation on the Indian Ocean, ...
I think this even came up in the recent South Africa thread.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
In the below extract we learn ibn Majid wrote on the invention of the compass, a feat some misinterpret as ibn Majid actually inventing the compass himself something ibn Majid never claimed. Ibn Majid attributed the making of the magnetized needle to al~Khidr (the Green One) of Qur'anic lore.
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The identification of the West African ibn Majid is depended on the translations of Bazan because I do not read Russian.
The article by Rafael A. Guevara Bazán is wriiten in English
“Some Notes for a History of the Relations between Latin America, the Arabs, and Islam.” The Muslim World, vol. 61, no. 4 (Oct. 1971) _________________________________________________
It is pay for view on Wiley Do you have access to it or a Russian Translation link?
posted
Everything Clyde said in this thread turned out to be a bust.
This is an insult to all the great black inventors in history holding patents in all scientific fields as well as current black engineers, doctors, technicians, scientists.
Yes, current genetic and archaeological results seem to indicate Ancient Egyptians were black Africans, mostly made up of people who stayed back in Africa during the OOA migrations (Ramses III=E1b1a, BMJ/JAMA study, Paabo, etc). But they were still their own people and there's no need to steal other people's history. If Ancient Egypt would have turned out to NOT be mostly black Africans, It would have been no biggy. Black people have a rich heritage outside Ancient Egypt and Kush. It is also childish to turn the table against the eurocentrists of the past by becoming like them but afro instead of euro.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
If you compare all of Clyde's referencing of Bazan that are all over the web and compare them to the italicized quote in my first post you will notice his is paraphrased not an actual quote.
There is no compass inventing West African ibn Majid and to go on with all that roorag is only to to cause people to think Africa has no history else why all these easily exposed great glorious grand fraudulent fantasies.
Meanwhile meaty African accomplishments as full of grandeur as any other peoples go neglected.
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There is no compass inventing West African ibn Majid and to go on with all that roorag is only to to cause people to think Africa has no history else why all these easily exposed great glorious grand fraudulent fantasies.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
@tL; I really can't say where precisely between pp.284-292 my Bazan article quote can be found in that journal behind the paywall (hint: p.285).
I glued together a few phrases found via GOOGLE returns, crumb by crumb.
@ARtU Not trying to be hard on Clyde and I know you aren't either.
I'm hard on his conclusions. There' a lot to be learned from Clyde's writings, though I would caution some familiarity with any topic he discourses on.
What I would like Clyde to do is confer with ESers during production stages of his works, especially wen preparing something like his letter to Oppenheimer.
It shouldn't touch his pride because nearly all scholars confer with other boh lay and professional and often list them in a preface or someplace.
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The West African origin of the compass and Majid is not a bust. The only way Da Gama got to India was probably through the knowledge he learned from Majid the West African navigator.
The Turks claim that Ahmad ibn Majid was an Omani. Other researchers claim Vasco Da Gama met Majid in West Africa. The information about Ahmad ibn Majid of West Africa , comes from T.A. Shumusky, Tri neizuesttruie totsii Akhmada ibn Madzhida lotsmana Vasko da Gamui ( Moscow, 1957), and R.A.G. Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam,,Muslim World, (1967) pp.284-292.
The Turk account of Majid , comes from The Ottoman conquest of the Yemen , this book discusses the Portuguese entry into the Indian Ocean . It was written 50 years after the Da Gama voyage. This authors claim that Majid was drinking with a Frank merchant and Da Gama, and gave him the secrets to navigation in the Indian Ocean this seems highly unlikely for two reasons. First, where did this drinking take place, between Da Gama, the German and Majid; was it in Oman or East Africa. This sounds illogical because how did Da Gama, get to Oman, if he didn’t know the way until he was instructed by Majid in navigation of the Indian Ocean.
Secondly, Da Gama made it clear he got an Indian pilot at Malindi to guide him to India. Ask yourself, how would Da Gama have known he would need an Indian pilot to reach India, because they used the Monsoons. It was knowledge of the monsoons that made Da Gama's voyage to India smooth, but his return to Africa without a guide horrendous.
This makes the Turk story about Majid unlikely. Since it was written 50 years after the voyage of Da Gama,the Turks could have gotten a copy of Majid’s book by this time, and made up the story about the Omani origins of ibn Majid.
I believe that Da Gama learned about the West Indies and Indian Ocean trade from a West African named Ahmad ibn Majid, because of 1)the Treaty of Tordesillas, and 2) Da Gama being chosen to lead the expedition to India.
Vasco Da Gama had extensive experience sailing along the West African coast. This would have given him enough time to have met Ahmad ibn Majid. It is obvious that the Portuguese probably knew more about the New World than they let on. Their desire to draw the Tordesillas Line which gave Portugal Brazil is quite interesting because, Brazil was a strong center of African colonization since the expedition of Abubakari, and since there was frequent trade between West Africa and the Americas when Columbus reached America, Da Gama due to his relationship with Majid would have already known how valuable Brazil was to any future power in the Americas. Da Gama probably passed this on to the Portuguese King, who pushed for the Tordesillas line.
Secondly Da Gama was a junior naval officer, but he was given Command of the expedition to India. This was strange because they already had an experienced officer who had sailed around the South Africa.
Bartolome Dias is already a veteran navigator he had rounded the Cape of Good Hope in South Africa 10 years earlier. But he was not given the Command of the expedition to India, the Command of this expedition was given to Da Gama . We must assume that King Manuel I , felt Da Gama had nautical knowledge.that would help him to be successful in this expedition. Da Gama must of had some special knowledge about trade in the Indian Ocean region that would make him more successful than Dias. This information may have been what he learned about the trade from ibn Majid.
In summary I believe that Da Gama learned about trade in the West indies and Indian Ocean from a West African named Ahmad ibn Majid. And because of this Knowledge the Portuguese were able to gain Brazil, and Da Gama was given Command of the expedition to India.
It is sad many readers of this forum can not fathon that Africans had such nautical knowledge because of white supremist ideas they have digested. It is you guys who deep down feel Africa has no history.
The West African origin of the compass and Majid is not a bust.
It is a bust because the compass was invented by the Chinese around 200 BC and later used for navigation in the Song Dynasty during the 11th century
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Turks claim that Ahmad ibn Majid was an Omani. Other researchers claim Vasco Da Gama met Majid in West Africa. The information about Ahmad ibn Majid of West Africa , comes from T.A. Shumusky, Tri neizuesttruie totsii Akhmada ibn Madzhida lotsmana Vasko da Gamui ( Moscow, 1957), and R.A.G. Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam,,Muslim World, (1967) pp.284-292.
who is T.A. Shumusky? Nobody's ever heard of him. Where's the credentials? Where's the quote?
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The identification of the West African ibn Majid is depended on the translations of Bazan because I do not read Russian.
If you haven't read the source because it's in Russian then you don't know what is says and therfore can't use it in an argument. Bazan is not Russian and the article he wrote is in English so your inability to read Russian doesn't matter
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Turk account of Majid , comes from The Ottoman conquest of the Yemen , this book discusses the Portuguese entry into the Indian Ocean . It was written 50 years after the Da Gama voyage.
That Turk account is the oldest account of a meeting between Ibn Majid and Vasco da Gama
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
This authors claim that Majid was drinking with a Frank merchant and Da Gama, and gave him the secrets to navigation in the Indian Ocean this seems highly unlikely for two reasons. First, where did this drinking take place, between Da Gama, the German and Majid; was it in Oman or East Africa. This sounds illogical because how did Da Gama, get to Oman, if he didn’t know the way until he was instructed by Majid in navigation of the Indian Ocean.
If Vasco da Gama went to West Africa that doesn't mean he was West African. If Ibn Majid was in East Africa it doesn't mean he was East African. If they both met in Kenya it doesn't mean the were both Kenyan.
Ibn Majid was born in Oman If met da Gama in the Arab port city of Malindi Kenya that does not mean he wasn't born in Oman. It means he traveled sometimes
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Secondly, Da Gama made it clear he got an Indian pilot at Malindi to guide him to India. Ask yourself, how would Da Gama have known he would need an Indian pilot to reach India, because they used the Monsoons. It was knowledge of the monsoons that made Da Gama's voyage to India smooth, but his return to Africa without a guide horrendous.
This makes the Turk story about Majid unlikely. Since it was written 50 years after the voyage of Da Gama,the Turks could have gotten a copy of Majid’s book by this time, and made up the story about the Omani origins of ibn Majid.
Ibn Majid wrote several books and Vasco da Gama wrote journals. Neither of them mention meeting the other ! None of the Portuguese historians of the time even mention Vasco da Gama meeting Ibn Majid.
Recognize, the meeting was first described by the Ottoman historian Qutb al Din, like you said, about 50 years after ibn Majid's death ! But you didn't now that waw the first account And It may never even have happened The Turk might have made up the story with the intent "you dumb Portugese didn't know where you were going until a drunken Fellahin tipped you off"
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
I believe that Da Gama learned about the West Indies and Indian Ocean trade from a West African named Ahmad ibn Majid
Vasco da Gama didn't learn about the West Indies because he didn't go there
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Da Gama due to his relationship with Majid would have already known how valuable Brazil was to any future power in the Americas. Da Gama probably passed this on to the Portuguese King, who pushed for the Tordesillas line.
ibn Mājid didn't go to the Americas!
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
In summary I believe that Da Gama learned about trade in the West indies and Indian Ocean from a West African named Ahmad ibn Majid.
You must have Vasco da Gama confused with Columbus. It was Columbus who went to the West Indies, not da Gama
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I don't have Vasco Da Gama confused with Columbus. I never said he travelled to the New World. I said that Majid told Da Gama about travel in th Indian Ocean and Caribbean.
Formerly, I believed that there were only two migrations of West Africans (Niger-Congo) People into the Pacific Island the first during the Megalithic Age, and another during the Lapita age.
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. The presence of West African toponyms in the Pacific Islands and India, make it clear that the West Africans had itimate contact with the Indian Ocean for many generations. This is the only way to explain West African placenames, because the Niger-Congo speakers did not begin to fully occupy much of West Africa until after 1000 BC.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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posted
Blackman lies, Clyde.
Ibn Majid was by all contemporaneous accounts apparently was an Omani Arab.
Ibn Majid was never in West Africa.
Da Gama only learned the sea route to India from Swahili coast mariners and it had to be by some manner of coercion because no countryman would wreck his own sea power and so militarily and financially impact it for the worst.
Late Niger-Kordofanian occupation is another lie. We have the archaeology. It shows by pottery, plant tendering and domestication, and metallurgy what people were there.
Climatology also indicates these West African Pleistocene folk moved north with the monsoons that greened the Sahara for the Holocene.
As the Sahara re-desertified, some moved back to West Africa with their stone industry. But those who remained in W Afr during the greening had begun iron reduction already by then.
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Blackman lies, Clyde.
Ibn Majid was by all contemporaneous accounts apparently was an Omani Arab.
Ibn Majid was never in West Africa.
Da Gama only learned the sea route to India from Swahili coast mariners and it had to be by some manner of coercion because no countryman would wreck his own sea power and so militarily and financially impact it for the worst.
Late Niger-Kordofanian occupation is another lie. We have the archaeology. It shows by pottery, plant tendering and domestication, and metallurgy what people were there.
Climatology also indicates these West African Pleistocene folk moved north with the monsoons that greened the Sahara for the Holocene.
As the Sahara re-desertified, some moved back to West Africa with their stone industry. But those who remained in W Afr during the greening had begun iron reduction already by then.
You have no evidence Ahmad ibn Majid was never in Africa. This is your opinion. What we do know is that a Gujurati, guided Vasco Da Gama to India. So there is no way Da Gama met Majid at Malindi.
There are no contemporary accounts of Majid. The only word we have of him was written 50 years after his death by the Ottoman historian Qutb al Din. This gave the Ottomans plenty of time to get Majid's book from West Africa.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
What a transparent strawman. Ibn Majid was never in Africa? Who said that? Don't you know where the Swahili coast is?
C'mon man I presented my stuff above including a direct quote and a complete 3 page passage.
You fail to present anything except a poor makeover that twists what's written in the sources you refuse to supply any extensive passages or simple quotes from.
Give it up and learn to accept critique for your further investigation on your part instead of immediately dismissing it and huckstering racial sympathy (something that shows this thesis cannot rationally stand on its own but is only good for 'black' people who know even less about it than you do.
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Late Niger-Kordofanian occupation is another lie. We have the archaeology. It shows by pottery, plant tendering and domestication, and metallurgy what people were there.
Climatology also indicates these West African Pleistocene folk moved north with the monsoons that greened the Sahara for the Holocene.
^^^This is false.
What is important for people to know is that modern West African people for the most part (like Niger-Kordofanian speakers) are relatively recent migrants to their current West African locations(regions). By recent, in this case, we mean after 10kya, thus during the Holocene.
Here's a quote from the book called The Origins of Modern Humans: Biology reconsidered (p23-24). Similar analysis can also be seen in other literature:
quote:Emergence of Distinctive Regional Groups in Africa
Curiously, although modern humans appeared very early in Africa, there was a very long delay until the appearance of individuals who can not be distinguished metrically and morphologically from the living inhabitants of each part of Africa . In fact, almost all Africa Late Pleistocene hominins [Edit:between 120kya and 10kya] are easily distinguished from living Africans (Anderson, 1968; Brothwell and Shaw, 1971; Gramly and Rightmire, 1973; Twiesselmann, 1991; Muteti et al., 2010; Angel et al., 1980; de Villiers and Fatti, 1982; Angel and Olsen Kelly, 1986; Habgood, 1989; Howells, 1989; Boaz et al., 1990; Allsworth-Jones et al., 2010), and it is not until the Holocene that this situation changes (Rightmire, 1975, 1978b, 1984b; de Villiers and Fatti, 1982; Bräuer, 1984b; Habgood, 1989).
So basically, modern West African people arrived at their current location AFTER the late pleistocene period (or at worst at the very end of it) during the Holocene thus after 10 000BC. This is also true for most other modern African population in their respective regions (Cushitic and Chadic speakers).
Originally those modern West African migrants lived in North-eastern Africa which is the geographic origin of the Niger-Kordofanian languages (discussed HERE) as well as the geographic origin of the E-P2/E1b1a haplogroup lineage (the lineage of over 90% of the modern West African populations).
Before the arrival of modern West Africans during the Holocene, West Africa was inhabited by small groups of humans which didn't leave any traces (like languages) and were thus probably absorbed by the Holocene migrants. Modern West Africans are physically distinct from Pleistocene Africans inhabiting that region as stated in the quote above.
Only in Eastern Africa, around the Sudan region, can we see continuity between Pleistocene and Holocene specimen (as discussed HERE).
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: What a transparent strawman. Ibn Majid was never in Africa? Who said that? Don't you know where the Swahili coast is?
C'mon man I presented my stuff above including a direct quote and a complete 3 page passage.
You fail to present anything except a poor makeover that twists what's written in the sources you refuse to supply any extensive passages or simple quotes from.
Give it up and learn to accept critique for your further investigation on your part instead of immediately dismissing it and huckstering racial sympathy (something that shows this thesis cannot rationally stand on its own but is only good for 'black' people who know even less about it than you do.
.
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Correct you did present your stuff above. What do we discover from the material: 1) the Ottoman and Arabs, believe that Majid guided Da Gama to India, from Malindi; this is false it was a Gujurati pilot. Secondly, the first mention of Majid, according to your material was 50 years after his death by Ottoman historian Qutb al Din. There is no prior mention of Majid. This suggest that the Ottomans and Arabs did not know about Majid , until after Da Gama made his way to India between 1497-98. It was probably after Da Gama reached India, that Arab and Ottoman sailors found out about Majid's Kitab al-Fawa’id fi Usul ‘Ilm al-Bahr wa ’l-Qawa’id (Book of Useful Information on the Principles and Rules of Navigation), after this discovery they promptly send envoys to Majid in West Africa to get copies of his book. This is the most logical way the Arabs and Turks learned about the work of Majid, because it was not until after 1500 that this book became standard reading for Indian Ocean merchants.
In summary, their is nothing in the material you posted that proves that Da Gama did not get information about the Indian Ocean navigation from Majid in West Africa.
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No matter what you say Tukuler the elephant in the room is the shared placesnames for India, the Pacific and West Africa. This shows that West Africans were living in the Indian Ocean for a considerable length of time. Given the presence of West Africans in the area there is no way we can say that the West Africans didn't maintain trade with their kinsmen in the Indian Ocean.
This would also explain why we find that most Omanis carry the Benin haplotype (34%), which is common in West Africa.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Distraction doesn't change the fact that ibn Majid, a prolific author as well as scion of a mariner family, was from what was then Oman but is now known as the United Arab Emirates (north of modern Oman).
You don't know the name of even one of ibn Majid's works less lone the contents of any of them.
Do you know ibn Majid's full name?
Besides pinning the original compass invention on a folk loric figure -- al~Kidhr -- Ibn Majid tells us about several different kind of floating magnetized needle compasses already in use by Maghrebis, Egyptians, and Arabs.
Ibn Majid never mentioned da Gama but he did write about European navigation around the Cape and of their sailing the Indian Ocean directly from Sofala (which is not what da Gama says about it) including Portuguese settlement in India.
There's a whole lot more than just your say so.
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Distraction doesn't change the fact that ibn Majid, a prolific author as well as scion of a mariner family, was from what was then Oman but is now known as the United Arab Emirates (north of modern Oman).
You don't know the name of even one of ibn Majid's works less lone the contents of any of them.
Do you know ibn Majid's full name?
Besides pinning the original compass invention on a folk loric figure -- al~Kidhr -- Ibn Majid tells us about several different kind of floating magnetized needle compasses already in use by Maghrebis, Egyptians, and Arabs.
Ibn Majid never mentioned da Gama but he did write about European navigation around the Cape and of their sailing the Indian Ocean directly from Sofala including Portuguese settlement in India.
There's a whole lot more than just your say so.
Tukuler, the information about Europeans trading in the Indian Ocean, is highly suspect because the Portuguese trade was not well established in the area until after Majid died in 1500. This information was probably attached to the Kitab al-Fawa’id fi Usul ‘Ilm al-Bahr wa ’l-Qawa’id (Book of Useful Information on the Principles and Rules of Navigation), after Majid's death. You can interpret the material anyway you wish but their is no mention of Majid until 50 years after his death. It was only in the 1500's that his book was a standard tool for navigation. What you have written is just your opinion about Majid not being from West Africa. If the Arabs got it wrong about Majid leading Da Gama to India, what else did they make up.
The Ottoman story about Ahmad ibn Majid life is probably pure fiction.They probably placed his home in Oman because other West Afgricans may have lived there at the time.
According to the Turks, Majid published his Kitab al-Fawa’id fi Usul ‘Ilm al-Bahr wa ’l-Qawa’id (Book of Useful Information on the Principles and Rules of Navigation) in 1489 or 1490, while at the same time claiming that Vasco da Gama made Majid drunk to trick him into leading Da Gama to India. Are we to believe that if Majid was an Omani he would have betrayed his fellow Muslim borthers, when alledgely he knew the importance of the trade to the Omanis. The answer would be a resounding: NO.
The Arabs probably learned abiout the work of Majid after Da Gama made his voyage to India. This is the only way the Ottoman probably began the myth that Majid piloted Da Gama’s ship to India, when the actual guide or pilot was a Gujurati sailor. What probably really happened was this. Da Gama reached India. In India the merchants asked him how did he find his way, it was then that Majid told them about Majid. After further investigation the Arabs and Turks probably sent people to West Africa to get Majid’s Kitab al-Fawa’id fi Usul ‘Ilm al-Bahr wa ’l-Qawa’id . Ahmad ibn Majid was a West African navigator. Although Majid himself lived in West Africa, there were probably communities of West Africanss throughout the Indian Ocean and Pacific. This is supported by shared toponyms (place-names) in West Africa and the Pacific-India region, and the Niger-Congo substratum in Austronesian languages.
West African placenames are found in India and the Pacific Islands. This allows us to date the probable expansion of West Africans into the Indian Ocean between 2500- 3000 years ago. This date is based on the settlement of Niger-Congo speakers in West Africa after the break up of ancient Egypt as more and more Eurasians invaded the land. This would explain the West African place names in India-Pacific that exist in both Africa and the Indian Ocean. Common placenames in India-Pacific and West Africa make it clear that there was an intimate relationship between both groups. In fact, West Africans may have still been trading with East African, and the India-Pacific region up to the Portuguese period.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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Nothing can counter the fact that ibn Majid wrote over 20 'books' himself (naturally before he died and thus half a century before the Turk concocted tale about his intoxication.
Again it's a proven fact W Afr was inhabited before even the Old Kingdom Egypt. Iron was being reduced in an Igbo region of Nigeria c. 3000 BCE roughly 300 years before the Old Kingdom.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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posted
Bosco set off on 8 July 1497, with four square- rigged ships: the caravels stayed at home, except for a supply vessel, chosen to be able to shift back and forth among the main ships. This was a solid gesture of confidence that the voyage would be made with following winds. On his outward journey from the coast
Felipe Fernández-Armesto Pathfinders: A Global History of Exploration New York: W.W. Norton, 2007
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The identification of the West African ibn Majid is depended on the translations of Bazan because I do not read Russian.
Here is my copy of the Bazan article: R.A.G. Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam,,Muslim World, (1967) pp.284-292.
Above is the portion of the Rafael Bazan article which mentions Ibn Majid
The first indented paragraph top of p 285 right top:
quote: Arab georgraphical information reached Vasco da Gama through his consultation with Ahamad b. Majid, whom he met on the West Coast of Africa.
So, Bazan says da Gama got Arab information from Ibn Majid.
He claims da Gama met Ibn Majid on the West Coast of Africa rather than the East Coast as claimed by the earliest primary source, though still about 50 years after Majid's death.
Nowhere does Bazan say Vasco da Gama or Ibn Majid were Africans. They mererly met there.
So why do you have a video up saying Ibn Majid was African when no primary source or modern source says Ibn Majid was African??
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Instead of doubling down on bad info just retract it and move on, there is no shame in that, great men of science do all the time,it's enough that Africans made use of the compass, astronomy was one of the courses taught at the university of Timbuktu,these people were among the greatest collectors and disseminators of information in the medieval world.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
WHOOPS
Big ups to Clyde My bad for not scrolling up (I start at the bottom)Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Outward and Return voyages of the Portuguese India Run (Carreira da Índia). The Outward route of the South Atlantic westerlies that Bartolomeu Dias discovered in 1487, followed and explored by Vasco da Gama in the open ocean, would be developed in subsequent years.
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