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Author Topic: When Moors Ruled Spain - Reconquista as a Civil War
A Habsburg Agenda
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_Xnc8ijkrA
0:50 - 1:08

A few years back I came across this video which indicated that the Spanish reconquista wasn't so much a war to drive Muslims out of Spain but more of a civil war which was rationalized on religious lines with the Christians being the barbarians who had nothing to lose and more to gain.

 -

Permit to Export Wheat given to Guzman el Bueno

There is this interesting bit about some of Spain's heroes being Muslims who switched sides and rewrote their family histories after the event.

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kdolo
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Yes I remember seeing that. Excellent.

even the Duchess Medina-Sedonia....

...The most illustrious noble family

said that based her family archives that the familly's founder was a Moor who switched sides.

'Alonso Pérez de Guzmán (1256–1309),
According to Spanish tradition, Guzmán was born in León.[1] Historians have since speculated that he was a Muslim.[2] In a permit to export wheat signed in 1288, Guzmán was given permission to export the crop to where "he is from," very likely in Morocco.' Wiki

--------------------
Keldal

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kdolo
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The question then is:

How many more Spanish nobility are descended from Moors who switched sides.... ??


How many Spanish nobility converted to Islam ????

It looks like alliances where fluid and both sides had factions amongst them who were often at odds.

This puts a fresh prespective on the 'limpieza de sangre' obsession and the Inquisition..........an attempt to sort out who was Whom after so many centuries of disorder, switching back and forth, and intermarriage.

--------------------
Keldal

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Brada-Anansi
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quote:
Originally posted by kdolo:
The question then is:

How many more Spanish nobility are descended from Moors who switched sides.... ??


How many Spanish nobility converted to Islam ????

It looks like alliances where fluid and both sides had factions amongst them who were often at odds.

This puts a fresh prespective on the 'limpieza de sangre' obsession and the Inquisition..........an attempt to sort out who was Whom after so many centuries of disorder, switching back and forth, and intermarriage.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/50401872/Fairbairn-s-book-of-crests-of-the-families-of-Great-Britain-and-Ireland-1905
Klik here^ scroll down till you get to the names that read Moor,or any alternate spelling these are proper family sir names backed up, crests with black folks on them,also some of the Sir names Black,Blackman, etc.
 -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8NGzBlWEWY
One of my personal favs.^
You can FF to time 17 that's where he get into the families.

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CelticWarrioress
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Brada, White people hater please. My birth surname is Moore & I am most assuredly NOT Black. So much for your little Black supremacist wet dream of everyone who has a variation of Moor or Black as a surname being Black or having Black ancestry LOL ROTFLMBO. Let me guess now everyone including Blacks who have the surname White or Alba or variations there of are White or have White ancestors LOL ROTFLMBO
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Tukuler
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Bru 'nansi

Where are those crests
from Rogers? I thought
you or me posted all
of them in the Colorline
book somewhere between
Es & ESR, didn't we, no?

Irish & Brit Islander males
surprised to find their Hg
is E-M191 (E1b1a7) when they
pay for popular genetic testing
http://forums.familytreedna.com/showthread.php?t=34965
may find out why quick from a peek
at those crests or the fact of African
soldiers Rome billeted way up there so
long ago.
. [Big Grin]

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kdolo:
The question then is:

How many more Spanish nobility are descended from Moors who switched sides.... ??


How many Spanish nobility converted to Islam ????

It looks like alliances where fluid and both sides had factions amongst them who were often at odds.

This puts a fresh prespective on the 'limpieza de sangre' obsession and the Inquisition..........an attempt to sort out who was Whom after so many centuries of disorder, switching back and forth, and intermarriage.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/50401872/Fairbairn-s-book-of-crests-of-the-families-of-Great-Britain-and-Ireland-1905
Klik here^ scroll down till you get to the names that read Moor,or any alternate spelling these are proper family sir names backed up, crests with black folks on them,also some of the Sir names Black,Blackman, etc.
 -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8NGzBlWEWY
One of my personal favs.^
You can FF to time 17 that's where he get into the families.
quote:
"there was a time when we wanted to show you off (people of African descent) as part of the family... They are letting you know the way things used to be

-- Jose Piementa Bey'


I wonder if Jose Piementa Bey believes the Crusdades happened
He has that last name "Bey" like the adhearants of the Moorish Science Temple do
That have some wacky ideas about history

Brada is the above statement compaptible with the motif below ??


quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:


Look carefully at this, four decapitated Moor heads >>

 -
1524
Jeronimo Martinez , Saint George altarpiece
wikipedia

Peter I receiving a shield emblazoned with the Cross of Saint George. According to legend, George appeared on the field of battle at Alcoraz. The heads of four decapitated Moors were also found on the battlefield and, when added to George's familiar emblem, the Cross of Alcoraz was created, which would later form the basis for the Sardinian coat-of-arms.

 -

_____________

 -
Coat of Arms , Alacandre, La Rioja Spain



^^^ Brada how can can images of obvious Christian domination over the Muslims, heads chopped off with this idea that coats of arms featuring Moor's heads when as Piementa Bey claims harken back to >
a time when they wanted to show you off (people of African descent) as part of the family"

You wouldn't be while chopping their heads off at the same time

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the lioness,
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 -
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Doug M
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Yes, the history of Spain is full of such examples of switching sides and treachery. Heck why do you think el Cid is a national hero? Unfortunately this is part of the history of Islam, from the feuds that ended the Umayyads, to the fracturing of North West Africa into smaller feuding kingdoms, to the rise of the Taifas and eventually the entrance of the Almohads and Almoravids. All of which was based on infighting and treachery. And the Europeans learned this from the Muslims (along with a lot else) and from that comes Europe as we know it today. And this is also where they first learned the idea of divide and conquer or how a few backwards barbarians were able to conquer the whole world by exploiting divisions within populations. It is that more than anything else that Europeans learned that helped them rise to the position they are in today.

Most of Medieval European culture is based on direct influence from Roman, Persian, African and Asian sources introduced by the Muslims.

In fact the very idea of a crusade or holy war is itself an Islamic idea along with mystic "holy warriors".

Note this image of the fall of Islamic Valencia (one of the cities involved in the exploits of El Cid), note the islamo persian derived influences. The idea of a triumphant entrance into a conquered city also derived from older cultures via the muslims, especially the white stallion and banners which was an islamic tradition from the time. But if you look closely, you will see it looks like Jamie is pointing at moors in the corners of the painting.

 -
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Entrada_de_jaime_I.jpg

And this intermarriage goes all the way back to the earliest invasion of Spain when Muslims were welcomed into many parts of the country.

quote:
Zaida of Seville was a refugee Muslim princess, who was a mistress and then perhaps queen of Alfonso VI of Castile.[1]

She is said by Iberian Muslim sources to have been the daughter Al Mutamid, the Muslim King of Seville, as mentioned in the Chronicle of Pelayo de Oviedo which is one of most important proofs of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaida_of_Seville

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?140522-Pinturas-militares/page10

Many of these conversions came during the Almoravid invasion, such as the whole entire Islamic kingdom of Zaragoza converting to Christianity.

quote:

The Banu Hud stubbornly resisted the Almoravid dynasty and ruled until they were eventually defeated by the Almoravids in May 1110. The last sultan of the Banu Hud, Abd-al-Malik, and Imad ad-Dawla of Saraqusta, was forced to abandon the capital. Abd-al-Malik allied himself with the Christian Aragonese under Alfonso I of Aragon and from the time the Muslims of Saraqusta became military regulars within the Aragonese forces. They were known as Almogavars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taifa_of_Zaragoza


quote:

There may be signs that Valencians themselves are beginning to become more aware of their Arab past, however. Last autumn was the 400th anniversary of the expulsion of the Moriscos – an event commemorated by exhibitions and talks, while a local TV documentary team found descendants of the Moriscos in Tunisia, using the same agricultural techniques that farmers still use today in the Huerta, and even now describing themselves as being originally from Valencia – or Balansiya.

I had a chance to see this growing awareness recently when I met Luis Bellvís and Santiago Máñez, owners of the Hotel Palacio Marqués de Caro, in the heart of the old city. Luis is a descendant of the last Moorish king of Valencia – Abu Zayd – who took the name Bellvís when his city was conquered by the Christian King Jaime I. Luis only found out recently, though, that he was also the owner of a large section of the old Moorish city walls. The front of the hotel looks like a fairly typical 19th century town house, or palacio. But inside, once Luis and Santiago started renovating, they discovered thick walls dating back to the 12th century Almohad period, complete with a watch tower. With help from UNESCO architect Francisco Jurado and award-winning interior designer Francesc Rifé, they transformed the precious archeological site into a Michelin-starred restaurant, Arrop. The name means ‘syrup’ in Valencian, and comes from the Arabic word sharab.

‘We were amazed when we found all this,’ Santiago, a trained archeologist said. ‘People thought the Arab city walls were a couple of streets further south. But I found a seventeenth-century manuscript that placed them right here in this street. Also, you can tell they’re Moorish from the building style, and the brick arches at the top of the watch tower.’

All these original features have now been incorporated into their five-star luxury hotel.

‘No one really talks about the Moorish heritage in Valencia,’ Luis says. ‘But it was here, all the time, right underneath our feet.’

Others in the tourism industry who are drawing on the Arabic past for inspiration include the owners of the Balansiya Restaurant, near the university. As the name suggests, their inspiration comes from the Moorish city that once stood here, and while happy to fill customers in on the history, they also feed them dishes from that time. Many wouldn’t be out of place in a Moroccan restaurant, but the recipes come from Medieval Moorish sources, including a couscous from the 13th century, with ox meat and coriander, and ‘Tagra’, made with fresh fish, saffron and raisins.

All of which takes us back to the Huerta – the single most important aspect of the Moorish legacy in Valencia. On a sunny day, a cycle ride is perhaps the best way to see it for those with strong legs. To the south lies the large sweet-water lagoon just inland from the coast known as La Albufera (from the Arabic al-buhayra, ‘the little sea’). This is the main rice growing area, and a great place to eat paella, particularly in the village of El Palmar. Only remember to show up at lunchtime – Valencians rarely eat paella in the evening.

http://www.jasonwebster.net/moorish-valencia/
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:


Brada how can can images of obvious Christian domination over the Muslims, heads chopped off with this idea that coats of arms featuring Moor's heads when as Piementa Bey claims harken back to >
a time when they wanted to show you off (people of African descent) as part of the family"

You wouldn't be while chopping their heads off at the same time

Piementa Bey stated that the Moorish empire was a composition of Jews and Christians as well, not just Muslims.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:


Brada how can can images of obvious Christian domination over the Muslims, heads chopped off with this idea that coats of arms featuring Moor's heads when as Piementa Bey claims harken back to >
a time when they wanted to show you off (people of African descent) as part of the family"

You wouldn't be while chopping their heads off at the same time

Piementa Bey stated that the Moorish empire was a composition of Jews and Christians as well, not just Muslims.
Chopping off heads was a muslim hallmark. You know "hassan chop"? That is one reason why Muslims are known as the people of the sword.

 -
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Henri_regnault_maures_grena.jpg

The severed head is always a sign of defeat and became part of the crest of the crown of Aragon due to the defeats of the Moors at Valencia.

Discuessed on other threads like here:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=15;t=005374

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by CelticWarrioress:
Brada, White people hater please. My birth surname is Moore & I am most assuredly NOT Black. So much for your little Black supremacist wet dream of everyone who has a variation of Moor or Black as a surname being Black or having Black ancestry LOL ROTFLMBO. Let me guess now everyone including Blacks who have the surname White or Alba or variations there of are White or have White ancestors LOL ROTFLMBO

If I am not mistaking, you once stated you have "dark complexion" (swarthy) and your dad is even darker (more swarthy)?


 -

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Bru 'nansi

Where are those crests
from Rogers? I thought
you or me posted all
of them in the Colorline
book somewhere between
Es & ESR, didn't we, no?

Irish & Brit Islander males
surprised to find their Hg
is E-M191 (E1b1a7) when they
pay for popular genetic testing
http://forums.familytreedna.com/showthread.php?t=34965
may find out why quick from a peek
at those crests or the fact of African
soldiers Rome billeted way up there so
long ago.
. [Big Grin]

In addition,

Colins is somewhat in denial. Which is typical.


By removing the three defining markers I get 88.6%. Still not enough to convince ftdna that they are wrong so I’ll just leave it as is for the time being and accept the confirmation of E1b1a7a. In an updated wikipedia article on E1b1a it states “Outside of Africa, E1b1a has been found at low frequencies. In Eurasia, the clade has primarily been found in West Asia. There have also been reported a few isolated incidents of E1b1a in Southern European populations in Malta, Spain and Portugal. There have also been isolated incidences in Austria and Germany”. I have been saying for quite sometime after conversations with Darren Marin of ftdna and the fact that genetic relatives show a “recent ancestral origin” in Germany. Mr. Marin said that our German match was from that country and had an ancient history there. He could not divulge anymore information than that due to privacy issues. One family having ancient origins in Europe is the Gabbenesch family of Tyrol, Austria. Recent immigrants to the US, with a confirmed haplogroup of E1b1a8a. Researchers of this line theorize a Roman ancestor or something more ancient among the Rhaetian, an Alpine Tribe of the Raetia and the Po Valley.

[...]

http://shaybo-therisingtide.blogspot.com/2011/10/collins-y-dna-has-blown-holes-in.html


Y-chromosomal variation: Insights into the history of Niger-Congo groups

Similar to E1b1a8, the highest STR variance for E1b1a7a was found in the C.A.R. Pygmies (0.49); however, the Bantu speakers from West Zambia and the Burkina Faso Gur speakers also had high STR variances (0.47 and 0.43, respectively).

[...]

The tMRCA estimates for haplogroups E1b1a7 and E1b1a8 were calculated by means of the ASD statistic for the major ethno-linguistic groups (Table 3). The highest tMRCA (~4,200 ya) for E1b1a7a was ascertained in the Yoruba from Nigeria, while the lowest (~2,000 ya) was in Nilo-Saharans. With regard to E1b1a8, the highest tMRCA (~ 5,000 ya) was found in Mande speakers from both Burkina Faso and Senegal, while the lowest (~3,400 ya) was in the Bantu.

[...]

These results suggest that this haplogroup was present for a longer time in Western Africa – which is the presumed place of origin of the defining M2 mutation (Rosa et al. 2007) – and that two of the derived mutations considered here (e.g. M191 and U174) did not occur in the ancestors of the Mande; the low frequencies of E1b1a7a found in these groups could be due to later admixture.

[...]

Furthermore, for other studies reporting high frequencies of M191 in Bantu speaking groups, we suggest that those individuals are likely to harbor the derived mutation U174 (see for example Appendix A in Wood et al. 2005). This is confirmed by the results of the LDA for the Ugandan dataset, where all individuals that had been genotyped as E1b1a7 were inferred to belong to E1b1a7a.



Etc...
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2010/11/25/molbev.msq312.abstract


http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/34266-E1b1a7a


It's unusual to use wiki, for strategically it's beneficial.


 -


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raeti


 -

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Po_Valley


What remains now is to follow the crumbs.


first image definitely showing a moor is an illumination from 1316 in the so-called Prädialbuch. So sometime between 1286 and 1316 the crowned head became a crowned moor's head. Since then the crowned moor's head is considered the arms of the bishop of Freising and of his territory, the Hochstift. The Hochstift contained widespread territories in Bavaria (e.g. Garmisch-Partenkirchen, Wörth), but also in Slovenia (Skofja Loka) and South Tyrol (Innichen). Many of the cities and municipalities formerly belonging to the Hochstift contain the moor's head in their coat-of-arms. See for instance my pages about the Wörth arms and its historical sources.

http://celticowboy.com/Moors%20Head.htm


 -


http://celticowboy.com/appiiia.htm

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IronLion
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by CelticWarrioress:
Brada, White people hater please. My birth surname is Moore & I am most assuredly NOT Black. So much for your little Black supremacist wet dream of everyone who has a variation of Moor or Black as a surname being Black or having Black ancestry LOL ROTFLMBO. Let me guess now everyone including Blacks who have the surname White or Alba or variations there of are White or have White ancestors LOL ROTFLMBO

If I am not mistaking, you once stated you have "dark complexion" (swarthy) and your dad is even darker (more swarthy)?


 -

Muur Swarthy?

Yes, SwarthMuur...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swarthmore_College

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the lioness,
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 -

quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:


The severed head is always a sign of defeat and became part of the crest of the crown of Aragon due to the defeats of the Moors at Valencia.

Discuessed on other threads like here:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=15;t=005374 [/QB]

Right, so when you see these Moor's heads in the Coat of Arms they are nameless symbols, not specific people
and not, as J.A. Rogers thought , founders of European families !


So why are some European familes of white people called "Moore" ? It's like people with the surname "Black" or "Green". That doesn't always refer to skin color


The Europeans didn't put actual specific people on their Coats of Arms and did not put founding members of their famliy on their coats of arms. The used heraldic symbols, often mythological or religious, mermaids, angels, etc

 -

So what happened other European familes who already had the name Moore, Mor etc picked up on this trend that begins in the 12th century as well and thought it was a clever pun on their name to use the Moor's heads in their coats of arms
Again the double meaninng "Moor" or "Bog" ( dark,wet spongy ground)

At the same time the Moor's head could also have another positive association layer for Europeans because it could be associated with St. Maurice a Christian soldier, martyr and saint from Africa, often depicted as very dark and is a well established motif in European art although if there is such a association it would probably be secondary.

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A Habsburg Agenda
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^^ Lioness can you enlighten me on this observation I find so baffling.

If the Moors were more the lighter complexioned so called Berbers and Arabs then why don't images of the Moors on heraldic symbols feature lighter brown complexioned 'Arabs' and 'Berbers', rather than the black/dark-brown complexioned full lipped wide nosed Africans like trio of football Uber Moors?

 -  -
 -  -

It doesn't matter whether the battles were fought in Andalusia, Morocco, or in Jerusalem. The symbolism always displays the so labelled Bantu type Negroes.

These heraldic symbols supposedly display supposed victories over people who were not supposed to be in the parts of the world these wars were fought. So why display them as symbols of their victories, implying that they were the people they fought against?

Does it explain why some of the esteemed members resorted to referring to white people by a scathing complexion related epithet, bringing the term Perfidious Albion to mind?

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Habsburg:
^^ Lioness can you enlighten me on this observation I find so baffling. If the Moors were more the lighter complexioned Berbers and Arabs then why don't images of the Moors on heraldic symbols feature lighter brown complexioned 'Arabs' and 'Berbers', rather than the jet black complexioned thick lipped wide nosed Africans like trio of football Uber Moors.


It doesn't matter whether the battles were fought in Andalusia, Morocco, or in Jerusalem. The symbolism always displays the so labelled Bantu type Negroes.

These heraldic symbols are supposed display supposed victories over people who are not supposed to be in the parts of the world these battles were fought. So why display them as symbols of their victories, implying that they were the people they fought against?


It's a good question with complicated answers.

The invasion of Spain was directed by the The Umayyad Caliphate.
the Umayyad regime was founded by Muawiya ibn Abi Sufyan, long-time governor of Syria, after the end of the First Muslim Civil War in 661 C. Syria remained the Umayyads' main power base thereafter, and Damascus was their capital. By 642, the Arabs controlled Mesopotamia, Egypt and Syria, had invaded Armenia, and were concluding their conquest of the Persian Empire with their defeat of the Persian army at the Battle of Nihawānd (Nehawand). It was at this point that Arab military expeditions into North African regions west of Egypt were first launched,

In 670 AD, the first Islamic conquest of the North African coastal plain took place under Uqba ibn Nafi, a general serving under the Umayyads of Damascus. The Umayyad Muslims brought their language, their system of government, and Islam to Morocco. Many of the Berbers slowly converted to Islam, mostly after Arab rule had receded.
The Umayyad conquest of Spain (Hispania) is the initial expansion of the Umayyad Caliphate over Hispania largely extending from 711 to 788. The conquest resulted in the destruction of the Visigothic Kingdom.
Forces commanded by Tariq ibn Ziyad disembarked in early 711 at Gibraltar at the head of an army consisting of Berber Northwest Africans and Arabs.
Most medieval historians give little or no information about Tariq's origins or nationality.
Most historians, Arab and Spanish, seem to agree that he was a slave of the emir of Ifriqiya (North Africa), Musa bin Nusayr, who gave him his freedom and appointed him a general in his army. But his descendants centuries later denied he had ever been a slave.
The period of the Córdoba Caliphate is seen as the golden age of Al-Andalus.

The berbers on average today are about half African half Eurasian, one could argue slightly more African in many cases, others more Eurasian.
But that is an average. The berbers far ranging nomadic culture includes a wide range of ethnic types some that look like dark Africans others yellowish mulatto types. In Mauritania they even refer there to "white moors" and "black moors"


The Almoravids (Al-Murābiṭūn) were a Berber dynasty of Morocco, who formed an empire in the 11th century that stretched over the western Maghreb and Al-Andalus. Founded by Abdallah ibn Yasin, their capital was Marrakesh, a city they founded in 1062. The dynasty originated among the Lamtuna and the Gudala, nomadic Berber tribes of the Sahara, traversing the territory between the Draa, the Niger, and the Senegal rivers.
From the year 1053, the Almoravids began to spread their religious way to the Berber areas of the Sahara, and to the regions south of the desert.
So they extended their territory further south nearing West Africa and perhaps infusing an additional influx of darker skinned people into the culture.
In 1086 Yusuf ibn Tashfin was invited by the Muslim taifa princes of Al-Andalus in the Iberian Peninsula to defend their territories from the encroachment of Alfonso VI, King of León and Castile. In that year, Yusuf ibn Tashfin crossed the Strait of Gibraltar to Algeciras, and defeated Castile at the Battle of az-Zallaqah (Battle of Sagrajas).
He returned to Iberia in 1090, avowedly for the purpose of annexing the taifa principalities of Iberia. He was supported by most of the Iberian people, who were discontented with the heavy taxation imposed upon them by their spendthrift rulers.


 -
^^^ Here is the Sardinian coat of arms,
notice the features on some heads, not particularly bantu
 -
Freising
The home town of Pope Benedict
Not particularly bantu looking

 -
Again Not particualrly bantu looking (but pitch black yes)

 -
St, james the Moor slayer, Santiago Matamoros.
Here we have a mulatto looking Moor (also see the modern flag of Aragon)


But yes here is your bantu type and there are many >>
 -  -  -
Coburg, Germany
the town’s history tells that this was the catholic church’s patron saint from Thebes (Luxor), St. Maurice. Therefore, according to both the town’s history and the Catholic church, for which he is a patron saint, Maurice
Yet depicted here with the hoop earrings Nubian looking rather than an Egyptian according to most comparisons to Egyptian art where both Egyptians and Nubians are depicted

As we can the European term "Moor" has many interpretations an inconsistent usage in European history.

In some instances it means any Muslim who lived in North Africa including "tawny moors" and "blackamoors" from Arabs to berbers (and the various skin color ethnicities included in these groups)

So in the earlier period this is related to the reconquista where the Christians finally overtook the Muslims

However this overlaps with the St. Maurice tradition and the "balckamoor" and later motifs in European painting with more bantu types being called "Moor"
The term is applied loosely. At times it meant "any African" or an "Ethiopian"

The Europeans know who their founders were. It was not these namless Africans. They used these black heads in their heraldry as mascot sort of symbols.
They are not to be taken as accurate depictions of ethnic groups or founders of families. They are heraldic symbols like mermaids, angels and unicorn, later as "blackamoor decor" ( and it disgusts me)

 -


BLACKAMOOR): A dark skinned figure, typically African, used in jewelry, sculpture, armor and decorative arts. Blackamoors have a long history stretching back to the 17th century. They are often portrayed in pairs. Andrea Brustolon (1662–1732) was the most famous sculptor of blackamoors. Often they are shown in positions that a real person could not hold at length.


The bottom line is that none of these objects were created by Africans so they do not come out of an African or if you prefer 'black' perspective

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kdolo
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Hapsburg, good point.

Re the moors, i figured out a long time ago the game that is played with them.

The game is: 'Moors are Black until they are not'...

when it comes to conquering Spain...Moors are not Black,...they are Berbers....and then the same game is played with he Berbers...Berbers are Black...until hey are not....then the so on and so forth until you get to Arabs where he same game is played again.....

The objective: hide, obsfuscate, diminish presence of Blacks in Europe/European history and to make it seem as if the white Turk was always in Africa and middle east.

--------------------
Keldal

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kdolo
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See... i predicted lionesses game.

--------------------
Keldal

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kdolo
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One thing that has always irked me has been the name of the movement to expel the Moors. 'RECONQUISTA'.

It means: reconquest.

What this suggests is that the Visigothic people intended to re-conquer that which they had already conquered.....the intriguing question then is from whom did they conquer Spain ????

By calling their movement a Reconquest it is possible that they considered the Moors to be descendants of people they previously conquered/expelled. More study is needed in this area ....the lack of clarity suggests that something is being hidden.

The official definition of the Rexonquest is:

'
From Northern Africa in 711, the Muslim Umayyad dynasty entered Europe and sparked a Muslim versus Christian war called the Reconquista, or the Reconquest (ie: The Christians "reconquering" their lands as a religious crusade)."

This definition smacks of White lies.....reconquer means that you previously conquered it And that you are not the original holder of the land. The million dollar question is from whom exactly did you conquer it from in the first place. By using 're', it suggests that the Moors were there first.....(tho clearly not as Muslims).

So, what are the connections between Spain and North Africa/Moors prior to Visigothic conquest. Who were the occupants of Spain at that time....ehnically....

--------------------
Keldal

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Brada-Anansi
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quote:
Originally posted by CelticWarrioress:
Brada, White people hater please. My birth surname is Moore & I am most assuredly NOT Black. So much for your little Black supremacist wet dream of everyone who has a variation of Moor or Black as a surname being Black or having Black ancestry LOL ROTFLMBO. Let me guess now everyone including Blacks who have the surname White or Alba or variations there of are White or have White ancestors LOL ROTFLMBO

Hi CelticWarrioress, you are not Black if you sayz so and especially if you do not looked the part I respect your choice, however without knowing your family's story it's difficult to tell if you indeed carry Black/African/Moorish ancestry,example did at any point in history one of your ancestors got adopted by Moors or lived in their household or stronghold
did you look-up your family's crest.
Also names also give hints to occupation or locations of where one's ancestors lived,example if you had an ancestor whose name was John Baker his given name would be John + his type of occupation Baker thus John the Baker, that name would be carried down by his male line,the same goes for for once foreigners, John + Jewison equal John son of the Jew, that name would be carried down by his male line just like Moor/Morrison, John + Morrison would be John son of the Moor carried by his male line, John Blackson John son of the Black.etc
But to quote this guy.
 -
quote:
I don't see color People tell me I'm whaite, and I beleive them, because police officers call me 'sir'.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by kdolo:
[QB] One thing that has always irked me has been the name of the movement to expel the Moors. 'RECONQUISTA'.

It means: reconquest.

What this suggests is that the Visigothic people intended to re-conquer that which they had already conquered.....the intriguing question then is from whom did they conquer Spain ????

By calling their movement a Reconquest it is possible that they considered the Moors to be descendants of people they previously conquered/expelled. More study is needed in this area ....the lack of clarity suggests that something is being hidden.


Stop the foolishness, simply read some quick History of Spain

The Romans ruled before the Goths and before them Celtic "Gauls" who arrived 6th c BC

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Brada-Anansi
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kdolo:
The question then is:

How many more Spanish nobility are descended from Moors who switched sides.... ??


How many Spanish nobility converted to Islam ????

It looks like alliances where fluid and both sides had factions amongst them who were often at odds.

This puts a fresh prespective on the 'limpieza de sangre' obsession and the Inquisition..........an attempt to sort out who was Whom after so many centuries of disorder, switching back and forth, and intermarriage.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/50401872/Fairbairn-s-book-of-crests-of-the-families-of-Great-Britain-and-Ireland-1905
Klik here^ scroll down till you get to the names that read Moor,or any alternate spelling these are proper family sir names backed up, crests with black folks on them,also some of the Sir names Black,Blackman, etc.
 -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8NGzBlWEWY
One of my personal favs.^
You can FF to time 17 that's where he get into the families.
quote:
"there was a time when we wanted to show you off (people of African descent) as part of the family... They are letting you know the way things used to be

-- Jose Piementa Bey'


I wonder if Jose Piementa Bey believes the Crusdades happened
He has that last name "Bey" like the adhearants of the Moorish Science Temple do
That have some wacky ideas about history

Brada is the above statement compaptible with the motif below ??


quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:


Look carefully at this, four decapitated Moor heads >>

 -
1524
Jeronimo Martinez , Saint George altarpiece
wikipedia

Peter I receiving a shield emblazoned with the Cross of Saint George. According to legend, George appeared on the field of battle at Alcoraz. The heads of four decapitated Moors were also found on the battlefield and, when added to George's familiar emblem, the Cross of Alcoraz was created, which would later form the basis for the Sardinian coat-of-arms.

 -

_____________

 -
Coat of Arms , Alacandre, La Rioja Spain



^^^ Brada how can can images of obvious Christian domination over the Muslims, heads chopped off with this idea that coats of arms featuring Moor's heads when as Piementa Bey claims harken back to >
a time when they wanted to show you off (people of African descent) as part of the family"

You wouldn't be while chopping their heads off at the same time

Lioness you simply have to look at each individual crest to know the story behind each crest,some Blacks or Moors in those crest represents victory over Moors, others yet implies family relations of converted or Blacks and their descendants living in Europe before the Moorish conquest,such as Afro Romans who decided to stay but you knew all this before so why be repetitive.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by kdolo:
Hapsburg, good point.

Re the moors, i figured out a long time ago the game that is played with them.

The game is: 'Moors are Black until they are not'...

when it comes to conquering Spain...Moors are not Black,...they are Berbers....and then the same game is played with he Berbers...Berbers are Black...until hey are not....then the so on and so forth until you get to Arabs where he same game is played again.....

The objective: hide, obsfuscate, diminish presence of Blacks in Europe/European history and to make it seem as if the white Turk was always in Africa and middle east.

your assessment is wrong there is no "until they were not"
Many ethnic variations from light brown to dark have at various times been included at the same time to NA Muslims and Africans from other regions in the medieval and later period usage of the European term "Moor"

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:

Lioness you simply have to look at each individual crest to know the story behind each crest,some Blacks or Moors in those crest represents victory over Moors, others yet implies family relations of converted or Blacks and their descendants living in Europe before the Moorish conquest,such as Afro Romans who decided to stay but you knew all this before so why be repetitive.

No I didn't "know" all this before

These 12th century and later Moors heads symbols do not exist in Europe in earlier periods. much less back to the Roman empire era that ended 235 AD, stop the fantasy

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Brada-Anansi
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:

Lioness you simply have to look at each individual crest to know the story behind each crest,some Blacks or Moors in those crest represents victory over Moors, others yet implies family relations of converted or Blacks and their descendants living in Europe before the Moorish conquest,such as Afro Romans who decided to stay but you knew all this before so why be repetitive.

No I didn't "know" all this before

These 12th century and later Moors heads symbols do not exist in Europe in earlier periods. much less back to the Roman empire era that ended 235 AD, stop the fantasy

I said their descendants as a possibility .
quote:
We know African soldiers worked along the western end of Hadrian’s Wall; archaeologist Richard Benjamin writes in British Archaeology of “a unit of north African Moors, Numerus Maurorum Aurelianorum, stationed at the Roman military garrison at Burgh-by-Sands (ancient Aballava/Aballaba) at the western end of Hadrian’s Wall in Cumbria. We can say with some confidence that the unit occupied the site of Burgh-by-Sands around the 2nd to 4th centuries AD.
They were being called Moors even back then, they left descendants as all soldiers,sailors in foreign lands do, both ancient and modern, stop being obtuse.
web page

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dbl
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the lioness,
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The Romans didn't have coat of arms with Moors heads

And the Goths and other Germanics who took over Europe from the Romans didn't have coats of arms with Moors heads. This comes in in the 12th century

what is this burning desire to be a medieval European ?

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Brada-Anansi
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quote:
The Romans didn't have coat of arms with Moors heads

And the Goths and other Germainics who took over Europe from the Romans didn't have coats of arms with Moors heads. This comes in in the 12th century

what is this burning desire to be a medieval European

 -
A Moor from the The Domesday Book of Norman era England note he appears to be Christian and settled among them to be included in their taxes on arable land.
No burning desire just showing what was,that Moors were among Christians and they formed families among them that became part of the fabric of Europe, when those arms were being made the local Blacks added theirs just like the rest of the populous nothing more nothing less that some of these Blacks and their descendants where wealthy and powerful is also a fact.

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xyyman
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Come on people .....Europe have their UNIQUE version of Elb1a AND YDNA HG-A. This was confirmed 2014/2015. This implies a very ancient African presence IN Europe PRIOR to Romans. In fact R-V88 in Sardinia is on a differenT Branch on the tree to the African version. Africans always considered a piece of land 10 miles away their home. Furthermore that piece of land is within eye shot ,

That latest paper put the seperation about 6000BC.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
 -
A Moor from the The Domesday Book of Norman era England note he appears to be Christian and settled among them to be included in their taxed on arable land.
No burning desire just showing what was,that Moors were among Christians and they formed families among them that became part of the fabric of Europe, when those arms were being made the local Blacks added theirs just like the rest of the populous nothing more nothing less that some of these Blacks and their descendants where wealthy and powerful is also a fact. [/QB]

It's not from the Norman era ( 1066 – 1154) nor does it attribute a name to the person

 -
Illuminated capital letter ‘I’ taken from the Domesday Abbreviatio entry for Derbyshire, possibly c.1241;

^^^ It's a decoration on the letter "I" which starts the text


http://veronese1515.blogspot.com/2013/11/why-blackman-in-1241-domesday-abbreviato.html

the National Archive gives a useful description of the Document – Domesday Abbreviato 1241 - as well as stating the National Archive’s view on the presence of the black man:

The document itself is an abridgement of Domesday Book, possibly produced for use in the Exchequer in the mid-13th century. It has numerous illuminations and illustrations. Some of these are drawings of historical events, some are portraits of the main landholders in a particular county, but most are purely decorative illustrations used to mark the beginning of a new county section. The image of the black man falls into the latter category: it appears at the beginning of the section describing William the Conqueror's holdings in Derbyshire and its previous Anglo-Saxon tenants, and we can be quite certain that no one mentioned on that folio was African

We cannot even confidently infer that the scribe had seen a black man in person: many of the other illustrations are of long-dead historical figures or mythical animals, which the scribe clearly can never have seen.
Therefore all we can confidently infer is that he had either seen a black person, heard a description of one, or seen a depiction of one in another source. Further, we can assume that he thought it would be an interesting and attractive addition to the manuscript.


____________________________


1) Either you can prove that Europeans put depictions of their family members on their coats of arms or you cannot

2) Either you can prove that a Moor's head in a coat of arms is specified as a specific person or you cannot


The idea that all of those Moors head in the the European coats of arms represent members of the family is unfounded and you have no understanding of heraldic symbolism

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Come on people .....Europe have their UNIQUE version of Elb1a AND YDNA HG-A. This was confirmed 2014/2015. This implies a very ancient African presence IN Europe PRIOR to Romans. In fact R-V88 in Sardinia is on a differenT Branch on the tree to the African version. Africans always considered a piece of land 10 miles away their home. Furthermore that piece of land is within eye shot ,

That latest paper put the seperation about 6000BC.

this comment is totally irrelevant
the thread is about the Islamic conquest of Spain
with a sidebar about coats of arms of Euroepan families

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kdolo
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"And we can be quite certain that no one mentioned on that folio was African

We cannot even confidently infer that the scribe had seen a black man in person: many of the other illustrations are of long-dead historical figures or mythical animals, which the scribe clearly can never have seen"


Are White people psychologically ill ???

--------------------
Keldal

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Brada-Anansi
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
 -
A Moor from the The Domesday Book of Norman era England note he appears to be Christian and settled among them to be included in their taxed on arable land.
No burning desire just showing what was,that Moors were among Christians and they formed families among them that became part of the fabric of Europe, when those arms were being made the local Blacks added theirs just like the rest of the populous nothing more nothing less that some of these Blacks and their descendants where wealthy and powerful is also a fact.

It's not from the Norman era ( 1066 – 1154) nor does it attribute a name to the person

 -
Illuminated capital letter ‘I’ taken from the Domesday Abbreviatio entry for Derbyshire, possibly c.1241;

^^^ It's a decoration on the letter "I" which starts the text


http://veronese1515.blogspot.com/2013/11/why-blackman-in-1241-domesday-abbreviato.html

the National Archive gives a useful description of the Document – Domesday Abbreviato 1241 - as well as stating the National Archive’s view on the presence of the black man:

The document itself is an abridgement of Domesday Book, possibly produced for use in the Exchequer in the mid-13th century. It has numerous illuminations and illustrations. Some of these are drawings of historical events, some are portraits of the main landholders in a particular county, but most are purely decorative illustrations used to mark the beginning of a new county section. The image of the black man falls into the latter category: it appears at the beginning of the section describing William the Conqueror's holdings in Derbyshire and its previous Anglo-Saxon tenants, and we can be quite certain that no one mentioned on that folio was African

We cannot even confidently infer that the scribe had seen a black man in person: many of the other illustrations are of long-dead historical figures or mythical animals, which the scribe clearly can never have seen.
Therefore all we can confidently infer is that he had either seen a black person, heard a description of one, or seen a depiction of one in another source. Further, we can assume that he thought it would be an interesting and attractive addition to the manuscript.


____________________________


1) Either you can prove that Europeans put depictions of their family members on their coats of arms or you cannot

2) Either you can prove that a Moor's head in a coat of arms is specified as a specific person or you cannot


The idea that all of those Moors head in the the European coats of arms represent members of the family is unfounded and you have no understanding of heraldic symbolism [/QB]

 -
quote:
n contrast Onyeka is more upbeat:

There are …images of Africans that show Tudor society did not inherit from its medieval past, an idea that [black Africans] were automatically inferior. Some of these image show Africans were familiar to people in mediaeval England and other representations’ imply they had a useful role in society. One of these representations is of an African in the Abbreviatio Domesday (1241) and its important because in a similar way to some Tudor images, the African is not displayed as fantastic or strange

web page
In other words Blacks were not unknown to Europeans living among them outside the Islamic context.
And Family named Moor or Blackmore with crest of said blacks points to origins and familiy connections what's so difficult to understand about that.

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kdolo
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Lioness,

I am aware of the standard (White) history of Spain. You summed it up nicely...

"The Romans ruled before the Goths and before them Celtic "Gauls" who arrived 6th c BC"


But there is a problem. The Visigothic kings/peoples labeled their crusade 'La Reconquista'....... the RECONQUEST.

To what 1st conquest are they referring in thwir reconquest ???

....a conquest of the Romans ???
If so, why label the crusade a reconquista ??

The label suggests that they perceived their crusade to be against the same or similar people from whom they took the land in the first place.....as in...we are re doing what we did already....against the same folk.

This raises a number of interesting questions.

1. Did the Visigoths (i.e.Whites) consider the Romans and the Romanized Celts to be non-White ??

2. What were the extent of the connections between the non-Visigothic peoples in Spain and across Gibralter in Africa.

current scholarship describes the whole conflict as more of a civil war... a significant percentage of Spaniards welcomed the Moors with open arms....

Civil War suggest different ethnic or ideological factions.....is it possible that rank and file southern Spaniards had an affinity with the Africans and perceived the Visigothic nobility as an oppressive, parasitic, and ethnically different elite.......

This interpretation sheds light on the Spanish obsession with biological purity....limpieaza de sangre and the inquisition.....the attempt to assert once and for all ethnic alleagiance and uniformity. ....final white supremacy so to speak.

--------------------
Keldal

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:

In other words Blacks were not unknown to Europeans living among them outside the Islamic context.
And Family named Moor or Blackmore with crest of said blacks points to origins and familiy connections what's so difficult to understand about that.

There's nothing difficult to understand about your non-sequitur

a) because there were blacks in Europe


that does not mean

b) that therefore when there are images of blacks in family crests it indicates the appearance of the original founders of those families and that the family is connected biologically to black people

that does not mean

c) that people named Moore or Green had ancsetors who were black or green

That is bull

You will not find any writings of European family that will say that the coat of arms is depicting their ancestors.

quote:
Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:

What direction African Centered Scholarship must take, what differentiates it from Afro-eccentrism a much needed discussion.
Take time to view pls.


exactly, that nonsense about the Moors heads on coats of arms representing founding members of European families

is classic Afro-eccentrism


.

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the lioness,
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1666 coat of arms of the Algarve

Kingdom of the Algarve

was a nominal kingdom within the Kingdom of Portugal.

The town of Silves (Cilpes) was possibly founded during the times of Roman domination, when the region was part of the Lusitania province.
After 713, when the Moors invaded Iberia, Silves became part of the Umayyad Emirate of Córdoba under the Arabic name of Shilb (شلب). In the 10th century it was one of the most important towns of western Al-Andalus.
After the Almoravid conquest the town became Almohad in 1156. In 1189 King Sancho I of Portugal conquered the town with the aid of Northern European crusaders, but lost it again to the Almohads.


First conquest

The city of Silves was first conquered by King Sancho I of Portugal in 1189. Portuguese control over Silves would be short, with the Muslims conquering the city again in 1191.

Reconquista

During the Reconquista, Portuguese and Castilian conquests went south, to take lands from the Muslims that they claimed as theirs. During the reign of King Sancho II of Portugal, Portugal conquered and secured much of its modern day borders in its south.




The name of the Algarvian Kingdom suffered some minor changes due to the Portuguese North African conquests, which were considered an extension of the kingdom of Algarve.

Thus, it was not until 1471 that the Kingdom of the Algarve led to the Kingdom of the Algarves, due to increase of Portuguese possessions in Northern Africa, which were made as possessions of the Kingdom of the Algarve. The Portuguese monarchs therefore adopted the title that they would use until the fall of the monarchy in 1910: Kings of Portugal and the Algarves of either side of the sea in Africa. The title would continue to be used even after the abandonment of the last North African holding in Mazagan

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CelticWarrioress
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Brada, yes I have looked up my family crest. Yes it has a Moor's head on it. My paternal grandfather was Scottish, actually from Scotland & was of the Moore sept of the Boyd clan (same clan as James I, my ancestor & his ancestor were brothers). No none of my ancestors were adopted by the Moors LOL. You say you're not racist but yet you would deny my people any history, identity, heritage,racial pride, etc. You deny us our homeland stating we are not indigenous to anywhere on earth. How's that not racist Brada??


Troll Patrol, No I did not. I said my complexion was peaches & cream. As far as my father he had the same skin tone as Queen Lizzie II except he had dark brown almost Black hair like Lothar Matthau & dark blue eyes. My mother has a natural light tan to her skin though oops she's not a Moore though LOL ROTFLMBO.

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Doug M
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Moors heads on coats of arms and heraldry are primarily a reference to military orders and affiliations stemming from the medieval reconquista. Not only does it represent actual military victories but also does represent the assimilation of knowledge and bloodlines from East to West during this era. There are books and documents that do identify those noble families with bloodlines from "Moors" but not all of these are from Muslims. Some of it came from Christian soldiers like St Maurice in the Roman army, other African conscripts in Roman service and the large number of African Christians who fled the Islamic spread in North Africa and went to Europe.

So it isn't a simple either/or scenario and has to be put in historical conquest based on the actual crest and historic usage. IE. The flag of aragon is based on actual military victories, but we also know that these military expeditions also involved folks like El Cid who were known for switching sides, which means that not only did Europeans do it, but so did Africans, Syrians, Arabs and other non Europeans among the Islamic state.

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Brada-Anansi
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:

In other words Blacks were not unknown to Europeans living among them outside the Islamic context.
And Family named Moor or Blackmore with crest of said blacks points to origins and familiy connections what's so difficult to understand about that.

There's nothing difficult to understand about your non-sequitur


a) because there were blacks in Europe


that does not mean

b) that therefore when there are images of blacks in family crests it indicates the appearance of the original founders of those families and that the family is connected biologically to black people

that does not mean

c) that people named Moore or Green had ancsetors who were black or green

That is bull

You will not find any writings of European family that will say that the coat of arms is depicting their ancestors.

quote:
Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:

What direction African Centered Scholarship must take, what differentiates it from Afro-eccentrism a much needed discussion.
Take time to view pls.


exactly, that nonsense about the Moors heads on coats of arms representing founding members of European families

is classic Afro-eccentrism


.

 -

lioness you would have no problem believing that Abramson with the big letters at the bottom of his arms is the founder of that family and is a Jew.
(note not one Yarmulke in sight)
But A bLACK
 -
But With the name a pic of a Black of Black and Moor in same big letters is to be looked at differently .. how??
Give proof that Abrahamson is was not a Jew or he is placed there to add amusement for Christian Europeans.
Coat of arms with a pic of a Black is not necessarily that of the founder but if the name Moor or Black moor Blackman showed up in the title then the rules stays the same as other arms.
C'mon Lioness take them blinders off.

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Brada-Anansi
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Celtic warrioress
quote:
Brada, yes I have looked up my family crest. Yes it has a Moor's head on it. My paternal grandfather was Scottish, actually from Scotland & was of the Moore sept of the Boyd clan (same clan as James I, my ancestor & his ancestor were brothers). No none of my ancestors were adopted by the Moors LOL. You say you're not racist but yet you would deny my people any history, identity, heritage,racial pride, etc. You deny us our homeland stating we are not indigenous to anywhere on earth. How's that not racist Brada??
Explain the Blackman in the crest along with your ancestor's family name on said crest.
I don't care how white you declare yourself to be if you say so I believe you, your self I.D and ethnic alignment is all on you. [Smile]

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IronLion
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quote:
Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:

In other words Blacks were not unknown to Europeans living among them outside the Islamic context.
And Family named Moor or Blackmore with crest of said blacks points to origins and familiy connections what's so difficult to understand about that.

There's nothing difficult to understand about your non-sequitur


a) because there were blacks in Europe


that does not mean

b) that therefore when there are images of blacks in family crests it indicates the appearance of the original founders of those families and that the family is connected biologically to black people

that does not mean

c) that people named Moore or Green had ancsetors who were black or green

That is bull

You will not find any writings of European family that will say that the coat of arms is depicting their ancestors.

quote:
Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:

What direction African Centered Scholarship must take, what differentiates it from Afro-eccentrism a much needed discussion.
Take time to view pls.


exactly, that nonsense about the Moors heads on coats of arms representing founding members of European families

is classic Afro-eccentrism


.

 -

lioness you would have no problem believing that Abramson with the big letters at the bottom of his arms is the founder of that family and is a Jew.
(note not one Yarmulke in sight)
But A bLACK
 -
But With the name a pic of a Black of Black and Moor in same big letters is to be looked at differently .. how??
Give proof that Abrahamson is was not a Jew or he is placed there to add amusement for Christian Europeans.
Coat of arms with a pic of a Black is not necessarily that of the founder but if the name Moor or Black moor Blackman showed up in the title then the rules stays the same as other arms.
C'mon Lioness take them blinders off.

Yes Roots, mi like dem reasoning dre...

Teach!

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:


 -

lioness you would have no problem believing that Abramson with the big letters at the bottom of his arms is the founder of that family and is a Jew.
(note not one Yarmulke in sight)
But A bLACK
 -
But With the name a pic of a Black of Black and Moor in same big letters is to be looked at differently .. how??
Give proof that Abrahamson is was not a Jew or he is placed there to add amusement for Christian Europeans.
Coat of arms with a pic of a Black is not necessarily that of the founder but if the name Moor or Black moor Blackman showed up in the title then the rules stays the same as other arms.
C'mon Lioness take them blinders off.

Both COAs have the name of the family on them , Abramson and the other Blackmore
The Abramson one, which is a modern design also has the word "jewish" on it

No history of the family given just pictures to riff on and fantasize about. That is not scholarship, step your game up

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the lioness,
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 -

Blackmore is a village in Essex, England. It is located approximately 3 miles (5 km) east of Chipping Ongar and is 4 miles (7 km) north of Brentwood. The village is in the parish of Blackmore, Hook End and Wyatts Green in the borough of Brentwood and parliamentary constituency of Brentwood & Ongar.
The origin of the name of the parish relates to an original settlement of Nubian archers, mercinaries of the Roman armies, some of whom took up permanent residence. A Nubian bow is seen in various shop signs in the village.

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A Habsburg Agenda
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -

Blackmore is a village in Essex, England. It is located approximately 3 miles (5 km) east of Chipping Ongar and is 4 miles (7 km) north of Brentwood. The village is in the parish of Blackmore, Hook End and Wyatts Green in the borough of Brentwood and parliamentary constituency of Brentwood & Ongar.
The origin of the name of the parish relates to an original settlement of Nubian archers, mercinaries of the Roman armies, some of whom took up permanent residence. A Nubian bow is seen in various shop signs in the village.

So, does this reply of yours vindicate what everyone else has been saying or what? You are just so unbelievable. Isn't nobility founded in military service and conquest?
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Habsburg:
. Isn't nobility founded in military service ?

No
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Brada-Anansi
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -

Blackmore is a village in Essex, England. It is located approximately 3 miles (5 km) east of Chipping Ongar and is 4 miles (7 km) north of Brentwood. The village is in the parish of Blackmore, Hook End and Wyatts Green in the borough of Brentwood and parliamentary constituency of Brentwood & Ongar.
The origin of the name of the parish relates to an original settlement of Nubian archers, mercinaries of the Roman armies, some of whom took up permanent residence. A Nubian bow is seen in various shop signs in the village.

Ywaan!!! in that sense Blackmoor village could well take it's name from it's surroundings or it could be a place that Black folks used to hangout either way unless there is a blackman or woman incorporated in the village's
official insignia who knows??

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A Habsburg Agenda
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Habsburg:
. Isn't nobility founded in military service ?

No
So what is nobility rooted in?
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Habsburg:
^^ Lioness can you enlighten me on this observation I find so baffling. If the Moors were more the lighter complexioned Berbers and Arabs then why don't images of the Moors on heraldic symbols feature lighter brown complexioned 'Arabs' and 'Berbers', rather than the jet black complexioned thick lipped wide nosed Africans like trio of football Uber Moors.


It doesn't matter whether the battles were fought in Andalusia, Morocco, or in Jerusalem. The symbolism always displays the so labelled Bantu type Negroes.

These heraldic symbols are supposed display supposed victories over people who are not supposed to be in the parts of the world these battles were fought. So why display them as symbols of their victories, implying that they were the people they fought against?


It's a good question with complicated answers.

The invasion of Spain was directed by the The Umayyad Caliphate.
the Umayyad regime was founded by Muawiya ibn Abi Sufyan, long-time governor of Syria, after the end of the First Muslim Civil War in 661 C. Syria remained the Umayyads' main power base thereafter, and Damascus was their capital. By 642, the Arabs controlled Mesopotamia, Egypt and Syria, had invaded Armenia, and were concluding their conquest of the Persian Empire with their defeat of the Persian army at the Battle of Nihawānd (Nehawand). It was at this point that Arab military expeditions into North African regions west of Egypt were first launched,

In 670 AD, the first Islamic conquest of the North African coastal plain took place under Uqba ibn Nafi, a general serving under the Umayyads of Damascus. The Umayyad Muslims brought their language, their system of government, and Islam to Morocco. Many of the Berbers slowly converted to Islam, mostly after Arab rule had receded.
The Umayyad conquest of Spain (Hispania) is the initial expansion of the Umayyad Caliphate over Hispania largely extending from 711 to 788. The conquest resulted in the destruction of the Visigothic Kingdom.
Forces commanded by Tariq ibn Ziyad disembarked in early 711 at Gibraltar at the head of an army consisting of Berber Northwest Africans and Arabs.
Most medieval historians give little or no information about Tariq's origins or nationality.
Most historians, Arab and Spanish, seem to agree that he was a slave of the emir of Ifriqiya (North Africa), Musa bin Nusayr, who gave him his freedom and appointed him a general in his army. But his descendants centuries later denied he had ever been a slave.
The period of the Córdoba Caliphate is seen as the golden age of Al-Andalus.

The berbers on average today are about half African half Eurasian, one could argue slightly more African in many cases, others more Eurasian.
But that is an average. The berbers far ranging nomadic culture includes a wide range of ethnic types some that look like dark Africans others yellowish mulatto types. In Mauritania they even refer there to "white moors" and "black moors"


The Almoravids (Al-Murābiṭūn) were a Berber dynasty of Morocco, who formed an empire in the 11th century that stretched over the western Maghreb and Al-Andalus. Founded by Abdallah ibn Yasin, their capital was Marrakesh, a city they founded in 1062. The dynasty originated among the Lamtuna and the Gudala, nomadic Berber tribes of the Sahara, traversing the territory between the Draa, the Niger, and the Senegal rivers.
From the year 1053, the Almoravids began to spread their religious way to the Berber areas of the Sahara, and to the regions south of the desert.
So they extended their territory further south nearing West Africa and perhaps infusing an additional influx of darker skinned people into the culture.
In 1086 Yusuf ibn Tashfin was invited by the Muslim taifa princes of Al-Andalus in the Iberian Peninsula to defend their territories from the encroachment of Alfonso VI, King of León and Castile. In that year, Yusuf ibn Tashfin crossed the Strait of Gibraltar to Algeciras, and defeated Castile at the Battle of az-Zallaqah (Battle of Sagrajas).
He returned to Iberia in 1090, avowedly for the purpose of annexing the taifa principalities of Iberia. He was supported by most of the Iberian people, who were discontented with the heavy taxation imposed upon them by their spendthrift rulers.


 -
^^^ Here is the Sardinian coat of arms,
notice the features on some heads, not particularly bantu
 -
Freising
The home town of Pope Benedict
Not particularly bantu looking

 -
Again Not particualrly bantu looking (but pitch black yes)

 -
St, james the Moor slayer, Santiago Matamoros.
Here we have a mulatto looking Moor (also see the modern flag of Aragon)


But yes here is your bantu type and there are many >>
 -  -  -
Coburg, Germany
the town’s history tells that this was the catholic church’s patron saint from Thebes (Luxor), St. Maurice. Therefore, according to both the town’s history and the Catholic church, for which he is a patron saint, Maurice
Yet depicted here with the hoop earrings Nubian looking rather than an Egyptian according to most comparisons to Egyptian art where both Egyptians and Nubians are depicted

As we can the European term "Moor" has many interpretations an inconsistent usage in European history.

In some instances it means any Muslim who lived in North Africa including "tawny moors" and "blackamoors" from Arabs to berbers (and the various skin color ethnicities included in these groups)

So in the earlier period this is related to the reconquista where the Christians finally overtook the Muslims

However this overlaps with the St. Maurice tradition and the "balckamoor" and later motifs in European painting with more bantu types being called "Moor"
The term is applied loosely. At times it meant "any African" or an "Ethiopian"

The Europeans know who their founders were. It was not these namless Africans. They used these black heads in their heraldry as mascot sort of symbols.
They are not to be taken as accurate depictions of ethnic groups or founders of families. They are heraldic symbols like mermaids, angels and unicorn, later as "blackamoor decor" ( and it disgusts me)

 -


BLACKAMOOR): A dark skinned figure, typically African, used in jewelry, sculpture, armor and decorative arts. Blackamoors have a long history stretching back to the 17th century. They are often portrayed in pairs. Andrea Brustolon (1662–1732) was the most famous sculptor of blackamoors. Often they are shown in positions that a real person could not hold at length.


The bottom line is that none of these objects were created by Africans so they do not come out of an African or if you prefer 'black' perspective

You posted that **** from Wikipedia, your favorite source.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate_of_Damascus

http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Almoravid_dynasty

You are a silly pathetic and racist individual. You try so hard. LOL But you're getting nowhere.

And you have been debunking yourself once again. SMH


quote:
ZENAGA (SANHAJA, SENAJER), a Berber tribe of southern Morocco who gave their name to Senegal, once their tribal home. They formed one of the tribes which, uniting under the leadership of Yusef bin Tashfin, crossed the Sahara and gave a dynasty to Morocco and Spain, namely, that of the Almoravides (q.v.). The Zeirid dynasty which supplanted the Fatimites in the Maghrib and founded the city of Algiers was also of Zenaga origin. The Zenaga dialect of Berber is spoken in southern Morocco and on the banks of the lower Senegal, largely by the negro population.

--Originally appearing in Volume V28, Page 967 of the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica.

http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/YAK_ZYM/ZENAGA_SANHAJA_SENAJER_.html#ixzz3bwEgpvbW


A Thousand Years Ago In Mauritania - Kamal El Mekki

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhtYZPSdJRg

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kdolo
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The Blacks were already there.......landed elite before White take over.....

Mike's theory is probably correct....

The 'Moor' thing is probably used as a distraction from.that fundamental point.


Reconquista = Reconquest .....

So what was the first conquest ????

The first conquest was of White barbarians over Blacks in Iberian penninsula.....

--------------------
Keldal

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