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Author Topic: peer review demolishes Winters M-173
Quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
Quetzalcoatl, is like. It's only peer reviewed if (whites) the western world has reviewed and consigned it.


It's somewhat the mindset of a colonist.


What Quetzalcoatl is saying is that western academia is superior, therefore credible.

Science is universal and does not have a color contingent. Scientists from all over the world (with all hues of skin color) publish in the mainline refereed journals. Here is a list of Nobel prize winners by country of birth

I agree on that, but why did you judge those scientists from India and Pakisan?
I just copied what the web site had. They seem to list countries that had changed names. For example Belarus at one time was an SSR in the Soviet conglomerate. Is this what you were curious about?
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Quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
[qb] @ Quetzalcoatl,


Are these the papers you are referring at, when you spoke of the M1-M3 transposition?


4. Kivisild T, Kaldma K, Metspalu M, Parik J, Papiha S, Villems R. 1999. The place of the Indian mtDNA variants in the global network of maternal lineages and the peopling of the Old World. In Deka R, Papiha SS. eds Genomic Diversity Kluwer Academic/Plenum Publishers New York p 135–152.


5. Quintana-Murci L, Semino O, Bandelt H-J., Passarino G, McElreavey K, Santachiara-Benerecetti AS. 1999. Genetic evidence of an early exit of Homo sapiens sapiens from Africa through eastern Africa. Nat Genet 23: 437 – 441.

Yes,
So, M1 became M3 somewhere in 1999.

The question I'm having here is, what is the "new" M = M1 reference?

In 1999 potential confusion arose because 2 papers were published that called certain sequences M1. One had to change names, and Phylotree designated that the one carrying M16126 would now be named M3.

M1 16129 16189 16249 16311
M3 16126
Thus, it is absolutely clear that, at least since the year 2000, mutation at 16126 has designated haplogroup M3 and mutation at 16129 designates haplogroup M1.
This is what you see if you visit phylotre- the official naming site.

Is this what you questioned?

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Clyde Winters
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Klyosov in criticizing my article exagerates what I wrote. He implies that I was trying to decieve the readers about the frequency of R1 in Africa. This is false.

I specifically stated the frequency of R1 among African populations throughout my 2011 paper.
quote:


Y-chromosome R1 is found throghout Africa. The pristine
form of R1-M173 is only found in Africa (Coia et al,
2005; Cruciani et al, 2002, 2010). The age of ychromosome
R is 27ky. Most researchers believe that
R(M173) is 18.5 ky.There is a great diversity of the
macrohaplogroup R in Africa (See Figure 1). Ychromosome
R is characterized by M207/V45. The V45
mutation is found among African populations ( Cruciani et
al ,2010). ISOGG 2010 Y-DNA haplogroup tree makes it
clear that V45 is phylogenetically equivalent to M207.The
most common R haplogroup in Africa is R1 (M173). The
predominant haplogroup is R1b (Berniell-Lee et al,2009;
Coia et al, 2005; Winters, 2010b; Wood et al, 2009).
Cruciani et al (2010) discovered new R1b mutations
including V7, V8, V45, V69, and V88. Geography appears
to play a significant role in the distribution of haplogroup
R in Africa. Cruciani et al (2010) has renamed the R*-
M173 (R P-25) in Africa V88. The TMRCA of V88 was
9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010).
Y-chromosome V88 (R1b1a) has its highest frequency
among Chadic speakers, while the carriers of V88 among
Niger-Congo speakers (predominately Bantu people)
range between 2-66% ( Cruciani et al, 2010; Bernielle-Lee
et al, 2009). Haplogroup V88 includes the mutations M18,
V35 and V7. Cruciani et al (2010) revealed that R-V88 is
also carried by Eurasians including the distinctive
mutations M18, V35 and V7.
R1b1-P25 is found in Western Eurasia. Haplogroup
R1b1* is found in Africa at various frequencies. BerniellLee
et al (2009) found in their study that 5.2% carried
Rb1*. The frequency of R1b1* among the Bantu ranged
from 2-20. The bearers of R1b1* among the Pygmy
populations ranged from 1-25% (Berniell-Lee et al, 2009).
The frequency of R1b1 among Guinea-Bissau populations
was 12% (Carvalho et al,2010).



As you can see I did admit that only 5.2% of the pygmy carried R1.

In relation to R-M269 in Africa I wrote:
quote:

Around 0.1 of Sub Saharan Africans carry R1b1b2. Wood
et al (2009) found that Khoisan (2.2%) and Niger-Congo
(0.4%) speakers carried the R-M269 y-chromosome.
The Khoisan also carry RM343 (R1b) and M 198 (R1a1)
(Naidoo et al., 2010) the archaeological and linguistic data
indicate the successful colonization of Asia by SubSaharan
Africans from Nubia 5-4kya (Winters, 2007,2008,
2010c). The archaeological evidence makes it clear that
around 4kya intercultural style artifacts connected Africa
and Eurasia (Winters, 2007,2010c).


As a result, I did not attempt to decieve anyone about the frequency of R1 in Africa as the author implies.

In fact recent research on y-haplogroups in Africa suggest that R1-M269 is also widespread in Africa.

 -

Above is a figure from Gonzalez et al. The Gonzalez et al article found that 10 out of 19 subjects in the study carried R1b1-P25 or M269. This is highly significant because it indicates that 53% of the R1 carriers in this study were M269, this finding is further proof of the widespread nature of this so-called Eurasian genes in Africa among populations that have not mated with Europeans.

The R1 haplogroup probably originated in Africa.

.

.
 -

.
The phylogeography of R1 in Africa makes it clear that this y-chromosome is spread globally across Africa and includes the genetic structure of diverse African populations including Berber, Chadic, Cushitic, Khoisan,Pygmy, Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan and Semitic speaking African populations (Berniell-Lee et al, 2009; Cruciani et al, 2010; Wood et al, 2009). The fact that Dravidians carry the R haplogroup illustrate the recent introduction of R y-chromosome to Eurasia.

Abu-Amero et al (20009) reveal the fact that Dravidians carry the R haplogroups illustrate the recent introduction of Ry-chromosomes to Eurasia. The frequency of haplotype M173 in Eurasia is as follows: Anatolia 0.19%, Iran 2.67%, Iraq 0.49% Oman 1.0%, Pakistan 0.57% and Oman 1.0% . This contrast sharply with the widespread distribution of R1 in Africa that ranges between 7- 95% in various parts of Africa, especially Cameroon (Coia et al, 2005). Coia et al (2005) has revealed that no maternal Eurasian lineages have been found among Sub-Saharan Africans with a R1- M173 profile.
Haplogroup V88 has the greatest frequency in Africa. It is predominately carried by Chadic speakers, ranges between 2-60% among Central African Niger-Congo speakers (Cruciani et al, 2010). Researchers have found that the TMRCA of V88 was 9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010).

 -

The vast majority of Africans belong to the y-chromosome E macrohaplogroup. Phylogenetically haplogroup R1b is mainly found in West Africa and the Sahel.

In this region the frequency of R-M173 can range between 85-100% among some Niger Congo speakers in Cameroon (Cruciani et al, 2010). The paternal record of M173 on the African continent illustrates a greater distribution of this y-chromosome among varied African populations than, in Asia.

 -

The greatest diversity of R1b in Africa is highly suggestive of an Africa origin for this male lineage because it is not isolated to just one part of Africa.

Archaeological (Lal, 1963), genetic (Winters, 2008;2010a), placenames (Balakrishnan, 2005) and linguistic data group (Aravanan,1979,1980; Upadhyaya, 1976,1979; Winters 1985a,1985b, 1989) linking Africans and Dravidian support the recent demic diffusion of SubSaharan Africans and gene flow from Africa to Eurasia. An early colonization of Eurasia 4kya by Sub-Saharan Africans and Dravidian carriers of R1-M173 is the best scenario to explain the high frequency and widespread geographical distribution of this y-chromosome on the African continent (Winters, 2010c). Given the greatest diversity of R1- M173, this is the most parsimonious model explaining the frequency of R-M173 in Africa.



In conclusion, the R macrohaplogroup probably originated in Africa. In my paper POSSIBLE AFRICAN ORIGIN OF Y-CHROMOSOME R1-M173 , I argue that the P clade originated in Africa because 1) the age of R-V88 and 2) the widespread nature of R1 in Africa.

Researchers have found that the TMRCA of V88 was 9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010). Eurasians carry the M269 (R1b1b2) mutation. The subclades of R1b1b2 include Rh1b1b2g (U106) (TMRCA 8.3kya) and R1b1b2h (U152) (TMRCA 7.4kya). The most recent common ancestor for R1b1b2 is probably 8kya (Balaresque et al, 2010).

In Africa we find R-M269 and V88. Clearly, R-V88 is older than R-M269 there is no evidence of archaeological evidence of a back migration or haplogroup R into Africa, but there is evidence of the migration of the Kushites and Proto-Saharans into Eurasia from Middle Africa. This supports the proposition the R haplogroups originated in Africa, not Eurasia.

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
In 1999 potential confusion arose because 2 papers were published that called certain sequences M1. One had to change names, and Phylotree designated that the one carrying M16126 would now be named M3.

M1 16129 16189 16249 16311
M3 16126
Thus, it is absolutely clear that, at least since the year 2000, mutation at 16126 has designated haplogroup M3 and mutation at 16129 designates haplogroup M1.
This is what you see if you visit phylotre- the official naming site.

Is this what you questioned?

This argument is invalid. It implies that Phylotree promotes lies to maintain the status quo, and white supremacy.

Clearly Phylotree is unreliable and based on Euroocentrism and white supremacy. This is obvious given the way R-M173 in Africa was changed into V88, and 207 in Africa was changed into V45. All of these efforts are simply misdirection aimed at containing Negroes in Africa, and separating Dravidian speakers from Africans.

Researchers maintain that the Eastern African HVS-I signature motifs are 16,129, 16,189, 16,249, and 16,311. This motiff is found in Indian M1, so it can not be changed into M3, because M3 already existed.
.

 -

.
The presence of one transition, 126, in Indian M1, does not deny its existence as M1, since it is the only M haplogroup outside of Africa that carries the entire M1 motiff. Luckily, we have the original paper that proves that M1 in India exist.

.

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Clyde Winters
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Phylotree- is unreliable and based on Euroocentrism and white supremacy. If researchers really want to know the genetic history of African people they will have to go back and look at the original genetic literature base and see what haplogroups original classified as African, have now been assigned to non-Africans.

Truth is out there........

.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Clearly Phylotree is unreliable and based on Euroocentrism and white supremacy. This is obvious given the way R-M173 in Africa was changed into V88, and 207 in Africa was changed into V45. All of these efforts are simply misdirection aimed at containing Negroes in Africa, and separating Dravidian speakers from Africans.

Researchers maintain that the Eastern African HVS-I signature motifs are 16,129, 16,189, 16,249, and 16,311. This motiff is found in Indian M1, so it can not be changed into M3, because M3 already existed.
.



Are these Researchers who maintain this white?
What are their names?

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Quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
In 1999 potential confusion arose because 2 papers were published that called certain sequences M1. One had to change names, and Phylotree designated that the one carrying M16126 would now be named M3.

M1 16129 16189 16249 16311
M3 16126
Thus, it is absolutely clear that, at least since the year 2000, mutation at 16126 has designated haplogroup M3 and mutation at 16129 designates haplogroup M1.
This is what you see if you visit phylotre- the official naming site.

Is this what you questioned?

This argument is invalid. It implies that Phylotree promotes lies to maintain the status quo, and white supremacy.

Clearly Phylotree is unreliable and based on Euroocentrism and white supremacy. This is obvious given the way R-M173 in Africa was changed into V88, and 207 in Africa was changed into V45. All of these efforts are simply misdirection aimed at containing Negroes in Africa, and separating Dravidian speakers from Africans.

Researchers maintain that the Eastern African HVS-I signature motifs are 16,129, 16,189, 16,249, and 16,311. This motiff is found in Indian M1, so it can not be changed into M3, because M3 already existed.
.

 -

.
The presence of one transition, 126, in Indian M1, does not deny its existence as M1, since it is the only M haplogroup outside of Africa that carries the entire M1 motiff. Luckily, we have the original paper that proves that M1 in India exist.

.

This is pathetic. AS usual, when the facts and the data have you trapped, you immediately resort to ad hominem and conspiracy theories. Thousands of scientists around the word do their research on many many areas and could care less than a fig about, you, Afrocentrism, or Hindutva. Every Science has an organization that is in charge of regulating nomenclature and preventing mixups ; for example, in my own field the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry (IUPAC) sets the rules for naming chemical compounds. And Phylotree is the official site for naming and organizing Y-chromosome and mtDNA trees.
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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
In 1999 potential confusion arose because 2 papers were published that called certain sequences M1. One had to change names, and Phylotree designated that the one carrying M16126 would now be named M3.

M1 16129 16189 16249 16311
M3 16126
Thus, it is absolutely clear that, at least since the year 2000, mutation at 16126 has designated haplogroup M3 and mutation at 16129 designates haplogroup M1.
This is what you see if you visit phylotre- the official naming site.

Is this what you questioned?

This argument is invalid. It implies that Phylotree promotes lies to maintain the status quo, and white supremacy.

Clearly Phylotree is unreliable and based on Euroocentrism and white supremacy. This is obvious given the way R-M173 in Africa was changed into V88, and 207 in Africa was changed into V45. All of these efforts are simply misdirection aimed at containing Negroes in Africa, and separating Dravidian speakers from Africans.

Researchers maintain that the Eastern African HVS-I signature motifs are 16,129, 16,189, 16,249, and 16,311. This motiff is found in Indian M1, so it can not be changed into M3, because M3 already existed.
.

 -

.
The presence of one transition, 126, in Indian M1, does not deny its existence as M1, since it is the only M haplogroup outside of Africa that carries the entire M1 motiff. Luckily, we have the original paper that proves that M1 in India exist.

.

This is pathetic. AS usual, when the facts and the data have you trapped, you immediately resort to ad hominem and conspiracy theories. Thousands of scientists around the word do their research on many many areas and could care less than a fig about, you, Afrocentrism, or Hindutva. Every Science has an organization that is in charge of regulating nomenclature and preventing mixups ; for example, in my own field the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry (IUPAC) sets the rules for naming chemical compounds. And Phylotree is the official site for naming and organizing Y-chromosome and mtDNA trees.
Yes you stated the facts clearly. Someone at Phylotree decided to name M1 in India, M3. Just because someone changed the name for Indian M1, does not erase M1 from India. You admit yourself that Phylotree is in charge of regulating nomenclature . Phylotree is not trying to prevent mixups, they are just trying to maintain the status quo and white supremacy.

Phylotree is just trying to maintain the myth that Africans and Dravidians are not related, A myth I have destroyed by 1) my papers on M1, 2) the absence of parallel mutation/adaptation as a explanation for the M haplogroups in India, and 3) shared African and Tribal Dravidian HLA-A and HLA-B.

If Africans and Dravidians share 9bp,YAP, y-chromosome H, HLA-A and HLA-B, it is only natural that they might carry hg M1. The decision to change the classification of M1 in India, given the M1 transitions in the control region of Indian M1, makes it clear the decision to rename Indian M1, was indeed a conspiracy .

.



.

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Clyde Winters
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Genetics research is constructed to maintain the status quo and white supremacy. Europeans use genetics to attempt to make themselves appear to be "unique" population, when in reality haplogroups R is of African origin.

quote:
Originally posted by Mike111:
^So with the physical features debacle behind him, the Albino man moved on to genetics, and declared that Haplogroup "R" was HIS and his ALONE genetic source!

I BE DIFFERENT AND UNIQUE, SAYETH THE ALBINO MAN!

Anyone remember this?

King Tut Was a European!!!

DNA tests show that King Tut’s Y-DNA matches that of modern day Western Europeans. The lineup is with R1b.



Okay, lets look at the "WHITE MAN" haplogroup.


 -


Right away we see a problem for the White man, turns out that "R" is NOT a White mans haplogroup after all.

So what does the White man do?
Why he digs DEEPER, clearly his intent is to keep digging until he finds a SUB-haplogroup that is exclusively White.

LETS SEE HOW HE DID.


(Much of the text below serves only as Humor - Sounds like Lioness bullsh1t).


Haplogroup R1b


 -


In human genetics, Haplogroup R1b is the most frequently occurring Y-chromosome haplogroup in Western Europe, parts of central Eurasia (for example Bashkortostan), and in parts of sub-Saharan Central Africa (for example around Chad and Cameroon). R1b is also present at lower frequencies throughout Eastern Europe, Western Asia, Central Asia, and parts of South Asia and North Africa. Due to European emigration it also reaches high frequencies in the Americas and Australia. While Western Europe is dominated by the R1b1a2 (R-M269) branch of R1b, the Chadic-speaking area in Africa is dominated by the branch known as R1b1c (R-V88). These represent two very successful "twigs" on a much bigger "family tree."





R1b1c is found in northern Cameroon in west central Africa at a very high frequency, where it is considered to be caused by a pre-Islamic movement of people from Eurasia.

Suggestive results from other studies which did not test for the full range of new markers discovered by Cruciani et al. have also been reported, which might be in R-V88.

Wood et al. reported high frequencies of men who were P25 positive and M269 negative, amongst the same north Cameroon area where Cruciani et al. reported high R-V88 levels. However they also found such cases amongst 3% (1/32) of Fante from Ghana, 9% (1/11) of Bassa from southern Cameroon, 4% (1/24) of Herero from Namibia, 5% (1/22) of Ambo from Namibia, 4% (4/92) of Egyptians, and 4% (1/28) of Tunisians.


 -


 -

 -


Luis et al. found the following cases of men M173 positive (R1), but negative for M73 (R1b1b1), M269 (R1b1b2), M18 (R1b1a1, a clade with V88, M18 having been discovered before V88) and M17 (R1a1a): 1 of 121 Omanis, 3 of 147 Egyptians, 2 of 14 Bantu from southern Cameroon, and 1 of 69 Hutu from Rwanda.
Pereira et al. (2010) in a study of several Saharan Tuareg populations, found one third of 31 men tested from near Tanut in Niger to be in R1b.

R1b1c1 (R-M18)

R1b1c1 is a sub-clade of R-V88 which is defined by the presence of SNP marker M18. It has been found only at low frequencies in samples from Sardinia and Lebanon.

Historical note

The DNA tests that assisted in the identification of Czar Nicholas II of Russia found that he had haplogroup R1b.


 -



--------------------
C. A. Winters

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike111:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
note: typing "he he he" and "ha ha ha" won't save you

Lioness - if I were to take what you Albinos say seriously, then I would be just as fuched-up as you.

Lets go over some of the bullsh1t the Albino lying idiots of the study "Melungeons, A Multi-Ethnic Population" i.e.
Roberta J. Estes, Jack H. Goins, Penny Ferguson, Janet Lewis Crain, said.

Haplogroup R1b1b2 is of European origin (page 50)

Primary Gibson Group Ethnicity
This group is haplogroup R1b1b2ab5 (L21) known to be Celtic. This haplogroup suggests that
the Gibsons from this line who are documented to be "of color" do not carry that designation as a
result of the paternal Y-line. (page 53)

Gibson E1b1a Ethnicity
This group is haplogroup E1b1a of sub-Saharan African origin. The census and concealed
tithables records in Louisa County suggest that members of this genetic line were "of color"
which is supported by the haplogroup designation. (page 54).

Moore Ethnicity
This group of three individuals is haplogroup R1b1b2a1b, European, believed to be Celtic.
Historical records indicate that this Moore family was "of color", but the haplogroup indicates
that the paternal Y-line was not the source. (page 65)

The Albino point to all of that, was to say that ONLY those of haplogroup "E" had Black fathers because "R" was Whites ONLY. Clearly Albinos are once again attempting to deny their Albinohood by carving out some genetic "EXCLUSIVE" ground for themselves.

At this point it would be illuminating to look back at the Albinos first attempts at this.

Before genetics, the Albinos tried to use facial features to distinguish themselves from normal humans.

Only Whites had high nose bridges, thin lips and straight hair.

When it was pointed out to them, that Blacks had those features even more extreme than they did:

 -  -


Then they said that ONLY us Whites have multi-colored hair, and eyes. (all indicators of Albinism) silly Albinos!

 -  -

There are a couple of threads here on ES with more pictures, so I won't bother.

So now, with all of his Albino denying bullsh1t debunked, the Albino man moved on to genetics, to try and convince himself that he is not an Albino.

(See what I mean by He,he,he: and Ha,ha,ha: Lioness)?

Next we shall see what the Albino man actually learned about himself - But that didn't and won't, stop him from LYING!

Mike you are on point. Europeans have changed the names of haplogroups or simply deny the African origin of haplogroups to pretend that hg E is the the sole African haplogroup.

For example, in Asia they call haplogroup M1, D4. Haplogroup R originated in Africa. It is evidence of African heritage. See:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZcxG3Ol-5M&list=UUryp_DYeagKtvL-pw1BpZeA&index=2&feature=plcp

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike111:
Haplogroup R1a


 -


R1a and R1a1a are believed to have originated somewhere within Eurasia, most likely in the area from Eastern Europe to South Asia. Several recent studies have proposed that South Asia is the most likely region of origin. But on the other hand, as will be discussed below, some researchers continue to treat modern Indian R1a as being largely due to immigration from the Central Eurasian steppes or Southwestern Asia.

R1a has been found in high frequency at both the eastern and western ends of its core range, for example in India and Tajikistan on the one hand, and Poland on the other. Throughout all of these regions, R1a is dominated by the R1a1a (R-M17 or R-M198) sub-clade.

In South Asia R1a1a has often been observed with high frequency in a number of demographic groups. The main two subclades of R1a1a are R1a1a* and R1a1a7. R1a1a7 is positive for M458 an SNP that separate it from the rest of R1a1a. It is significant because M458 is a European marker and the epicenter is Poland. M458 marker is rare in India.

In India, high percentage of this haplogroup is observed in West Bengal Brahmins (72%) to the east, Konkanastha Brahmins (48%) to the west, Khatris (67%) in north and Iyenger Brahmins (31%) of south. It has also been found in several South Indian Dravidian-speaking Adivasis including the Chenchu (26%) and the Valmikis of Andhra Pradesh and the Kallar of Tamil Nadu suggesting that M17 is widespread in Tribal Southern Indians.

Besides these, studies show high percentages in regionally diverse groups such as Manipuris (50%) to the extreme North East and in Punjab (47%) to the extreme North West.

In Pakistan it is found at 71% among the Mohanna tribe in Sindh province to the south and 46% among the Baltis of Gilgit-Baltistan to the north. While 13% of Sinhalese of Sri Lanka were found to be R1a1a (R-M17) positive.

Hindus of Terai region of Nepal show it at 69%.

In Afghanistan, R1a1a (R-M17) is found at 51.02% among the Pashtuns (the largest ethnic group in Afghanistan) and 30.36% among the Tajiks, but it is less frequent among the Hazaras (6.67%) and the Turkic-speaking Uzbeks (17.65%).


Europe

R1a1 among others European haplogrupes

In Europe, R1a, again almost entirely in the R1a1a sub-clade, is found at highest levels among peoples of Eastern European descent (Sorbs, Poles, Russians and Ukrainians; 50 to 65%). In the Baltic countries R1a frequencies decrease from Lithuania (45%) to Estonia (around 30%). Levels in Hungarians have been noted between 20 and 60%.

There is a significant presence in peoples of Scandinavian descent, with highest levels in Norway and Iceland, where between 20 and 30% of men are in R1a1a. Vikings and Normans may have also carried the R1a1a lineage westward; accounting for at least part of the small presence in the British Isles. In East Germany, where Haplogroup R1a reaches a peak frequency in Rostock at a percentage of 31.3%, it averages between 20%-30%.

Haplogroup R1a1a was found at elevated levels amongst a sample of the Israeli population who self-designated themselves as Ashkenazi Jews, possibly reflecting gene flow into Ashkenazi populations from surrounding Eastern European populations, over a course of centuries. This haplogroup finding was apparently consistent with the latest SNP microarray analysis which argued that up to 55 percent of the modern Ashkenazi genome is specifically traceable to Europe. Ashkenazim were found to have a significantly higher frequency of the R-M17 haplogroup Behar reported R-M17 to be the dominant haplogroup in Ashkenazi Levites (52%), although rare in Ashkenazi Cohanim (1.3%) and Israelites (4%).


In Southern Europe R1a1a is not common amongst the general population, but it is widespread in certain areas. Significant levels have been found in pockets, such as in the Pas Valley in Northern Spain, areas of Venice, and Calabria in Italy. The Balkans shows lower frequencies, and significant variation between areas, for example >30% in Slovenia, Croatia and Greek Macedonia, but <10% in Albania, Kosovo and parts of Greece.

The remains of a father and his two sons, from an archaeological site discovered in 2005 near Eulau "in Saxony-Anhalt, Germany" and dated to about 2600 BCE, tested positive for the Y-SNP marker SRY10831.2. The R1a1 clade was thus present in Europe at least 4600 years ago, in association with one site of the widespread Corded Ware culture.


Central and Northern Asia

R1a1a frequencies are patchy in Central Asia. This variation is possibly a consequence of population bottlenecks in isolated areas and the movements of Scythians in ancient times and later the Turco-Mongols.

High frequencies of R1a1a "R-M17 or R-M198; 50 to 70%" are found among the Ishkashimis, Khujand Tajiks, Panjakent Tajiks, Turkic-speaking Kyrgyzs, and in several peoples of Russia's Altai Republic, but frequencies are relatively lower "16 to 25%" among the Dushanbe Tajiks, Samarkand Tajiks, Yaghnobis and Shughnis.

Although levels are comparatively low amongst some Turkic-speaking groups e.g. Turks, Azeris, Kazakhs, Yakuts, levels are high "19 to 28%" in certain Turkic or Mongolic-speaking groups of Northwestern China, such as the Bonan, Dongxiang, Salar, and Uyghurs.

In Eastern Siberia, R1a1a is found among certain indigenous ethnic groups including Kamchatkans and Chukotkans, and peaking in Itel'man at 22%.
Middle East and Caucasus

R1a1a has been found in various forms, in most parts of Western Asia, in widely varying concentrations, from almost no presence in areas such as Jordan, to much higher levels in parts of Kuwait, Turkey and Iran.

The Shimar "Shammar" Bedouin tribe in Kuwait show the highest frequency in the Middle East at 43%.


 -

 -


Wells et al. (2001), noted that in the western part of the country, Iranians show low R1a1a levels, while males of eastern parts of Iran carried up to 35% R1a. Nasidze et al. (2004) found R1a in approximately 20% of Iranian males from the cities of Tehran and Isfahan. Regueiro et al. (2006), in a study of Iran, noted much higher frequencies in the south than the north.


Turkey also shows high but unevenly distributed R1a levels amongst some sub-populations. For example Nasidze et al. (2005) found relatively high levels amongst two Kurdish groups of Turkey, the Kurmanji (13%) and Zazaki (26%).


Further to the north of these Middle Eastern regions on the other hand, R1a levels start to increase in the Caucasus, once again in an uneven way. Several populations studied have shown no sign of R1a, while highest levels so far discovered in the region appears to belong to speakers of the Karachay-Balkar language amongst whom about one quarter of men tested so far are in haplogroup R1a1a.

quote:
Originally posted by Mike111:
^So then, putting aside the very "IMAGINATIVE" conclusions of those "WHITE" researchers.

Lets us normal people look at the evidence without the bullsh1t.

IF THIS MAN:

 -


AND THIS MAN:

 -


WHO ARE BLACK, SHARE PRETTY MUCH THE EXACT SAME DNA AS THIS MAN:

WHO IS "WHITE"

 -


THEN WHAT DOES THAT MEAN????

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Oh wait, I seem to remember running into this same problem a while back.

As I recall, these children also shared the exact same DNA, yet one was White and the others were Black.


 -

.

Hmmm, what did that mean again?

Oh yes, now I remember!

THE WHITE ONE WAS AN ALBINO!



--------------------
C. A. Winters

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the lioness,
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 -

This is a misleading wikipedia chart on R1, the two branches R1a and R1b
the black circles are blank they don't represent anything by themseleves. Mike added the yellow caption "R1 Black"(scam)
The chart does not come from a science source reference
Notice how those black circles don't even cover the below Cruciani chart coastal WA positions

 - [/URL]


Cruciani et al (2010) has renamed the R*-
M173 (R P-25) in Africa V88. The TMRCA of V88 was
9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010). Specific alleles distinguish this branch

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1

 -

notice the caption on the chart
black circles don't represent anything

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Mike111
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
notice the caption on the chart
black circles don't represent anything

DAMNNNN - YOU'RE STUPID!
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Clyde Winters
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Africans carry haplogroup R1a.

In India the Dravidian people carry the R1a haplogroup The Dravidian people of India originally lived in Middle Africa and belonged to the Proto-Saharan Civilization.
The Proto-Saharan civilization was situated in the Proto-Sahara, which includes Cameroon.
.
 -
.
In Cameroon we find carriers of R1a.
In addition to carriers of R1a in Cameroon; the Dravidian languages are still spoken today in Cameroon see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWyAYGlFZjkhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWyAYGlFZjk

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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 -

.
It would appear that Black represented M-173 or R1.

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In the continuing education series—a big part of the plot alleged by Afrocentrics is that peer reviews prevent publication of their ideas. Clyde is completely wrong in that reviewers are not required to refute the paper. What they are supposed to look for is whether there is something to refute at all in terms of accuracy, readability, presentation, and logic.

Here for example are the questions asked the anonymous reviewers to address of one of my papers in Advances in Nursing Science

1. Consistent with the purposes of this journal; innovative and important to the advancement of nursing science: pertinent to the projected issue topic.

2. Concise, logical ordering of ideas: readability

3. Presentation of original ideas, and sound rationale for the ideas.

4. Content is well-founded and accurate.

5. Scholarly methods and approaches to inquiry.

6. Adequate documentation

Recommend _____ publication

_______ Deny publication

________ Publish with revisions

__________ revise and resubmit

Reviews vary from one liners to extensive critiques. Reviewers also may or may not address every topic. “Publish with revisions” includes fairly detailed recommendations of additional data, revisions of wording, documentation, more evidence , etc. If you look at the end of papers many will thank the reviewers for suggestions that improved their papers.
“Revise and Resubmit” means that as-it- is it is not publishable, but there are good things in the paper and an extensive reworking is needed to fix it. However, the revised paper will have to undergo another round of anonymous peer reviews to see if it now merits publication.
Questions about typos, bibliographic format, and footnotes are left to the editorial staff when the paper is published.

Look at some of Clyde's papers with this sort of thing in mind.

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Quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Africans carry haplogroup R1a.

In India the Dravidian people carry the R1a haplogroup The Dravidian people of India originally lived in Middle Africa and belonged to the Proto-Saharan Civilization.
The Proto-Saharan civilization was situated in the Proto-Sahara, which includes Cameroon.
.
 -
.
In Cameroon we find carriers of R1a.
In addition to carriers of R1a in Cameroon; the Dravidian languages are still spoken today in Cameroon see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWyAYGlFZjkhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWyAYGlFZjk

Only in your fevered imagination. Who else has published these claims?
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Quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -

This is a misleading wikipedia chart on R1, the two branches R1a and R1b
the black circles are blank they don't represent anything by themseleves. Mike added the yellow caption "R1 Black"(scam)
The chart does not come from a science source reference
Notice how those black circles don't even cover the below Cruciani chart coastal WA positions

 - [/URL]


Cruciani et al (2010) has renamed the R*-
M173 (R P-25) in Africa V88. The TMRCA of V88 was
9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010). Specific alleles distinguish this branch

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1

 -

notice the caption on the chart
black circles don't represent anything

Good catch! doctoring the evidence disguised by lots of spam postings
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Mike111
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^DAMN THESE ALBINOS ARE STUPID!

HEY ASS-HOLES, DOXIE GETS AWAY WITH NONSENSE LIKE THAT, BECAUSE IT'S FUN TO WATCH.

THAT DOESN'T APPLY TO YOU TWO IDIOTS.

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quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
[qb] @ Quetzalcoatl,


Are these the papers you are referring at, when you spoke of the M1-M3 transposition?


4. Kivisild T, Kaldma K, Metspalu M, Parik J, Papiha S, Villems R. 1999. The place of the Indian mtDNA variants in the global network of maternal lineages and the peopling of the Old World. In Deka R, Papiha SS. eds Genomic Diversity Kluwer Academic/Plenum Publishers New York p 135–152.


5. Quintana-Murci L, Semino O, Bandelt H-J., Passarino G, McElreavey K, Santachiara-Benerecetti AS. 1999. Genetic evidence of an early exit of Homo sapiens sapiens from Africa through eastern Africa. Nat Genet 23: 437 – 441.

Yes,
So, M1 became M3 somewhere in 1999.

The question I'm having here is, what is the "new" M = M1 reference?

In 1999 potential confusion arose because 2 papers were published that called certain sequences M1. One had to change names, and Phylotree designated that the one carrying M16126 would now be named M3.

M1 16129 16189 16249 16311
M3 16126
Thus, it is absolutely clear that, at least since the year 2000, mutation at 16126 has designated haplogroup M3 and mutation at 16129 designates haplogroup M1.
This is what you see if you visit phylotre- the official naming site.

Is this what you questioned?

Yeah, thanks for the reply.


This was posted by Clyde, do you agree?


The majority of M clades in Asia are carried by Dravidian people, Dravidian people originated in Africa and belonged to the C-Group people. Moreover, M1 is recognized as an African haplogroup. as a result,


Haplotypes with HVSI transitions defining 16129-16223-16249-16278-16311-16362; and 16129-16223-16234-16249-16211-16362 have been found in Thailand and among the Han Chinese (Fucharoen et al, 2001; Yao et al, 2002) and these were originally thought to be members of Haplogroup M1.

However, on the basis of currently available FGS sequences, carriers of these markers have been found to be in the D4a branch of Haplogroup D , the most widespread branch of M1 in East Asia (Fucharoen et al, 2001; Yao et al, 2002). The transitions 16129,16189,16249 and 16311 are known to be recurrent in various branches of Haplogroup M, especially M1 and D4.

As you can see geneticist change the name of haplogroups to create confusion and deny relationships between Africans and non-Africans.

Another example is V88, although it is R1-M173, it was given another name to make it appear to be different from the R1 group.

In summary CHINESE carry African clades.


References

Fucharoen G, Fucharoen S, Horai S: Mitochondrial DNA polymorphism in Thailand. J Hum Genet 2001, 46:115-125.

Yao YG, Kong QP, Bandelt HJ, Kivisild T, Zhang YP: Phylogeographic differentiation of mitochondrial DNA in Han chinese. Am J Hum Genet 2002 ,70:635-651.

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quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -

This is a misleading wikipedia chart on R1, the two branches R1a and R1b
the black circles are blank they don't represent anything by themseleves. Mike added the yellow caption "R1 Black"(scam)
The chart does not come from a science source reference
Notice how those black circles don't even cover the below Cruciani chart coastal WA positions

 - [/URL]


Cruciani et al (2010) has renamed the R*-
M173 (R P-25) in Africa V88. The TMRCA of V88 was
9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010). Specific alleles distinguish this branch

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1

 -

notice the caption on the chart
black circles don't represent anything

Good catch! doctoring the evidence disguised by lots of spam postings
 -


quote:

The Y chromosome Alu polymorphism (YAP, also called M1) defines the deep-rooted haplogroup D/E of the global Y-chromosome phylogeny [1]. This D/E haplogroup is further branched into three sub-haplogroups DE*, D and E (Figure 1). The distribution of the D/E haplogroup is highly regional, and the three subgroups are geographically restricted to certain areas, therefore informative in tracing human prehistory (Table 1). The sub-haplogroup DE*, presumably the most ancient lineage of the D/E haplogroup was only found in Africans from Nigeria [2], supporting the "Out of Africa" hypothesis about modern human origin. The sub-haplogroup E (E-M40), defined by M40/SRY4064 and M96, was also suggested originated in Africa [3-6], and later dispersed to Middle East and Europe about 20,000 years ago [3,4]. Interestingly, the sub-haplogroup D defined by M174 (D-M174) is East Asian specific with abundant appearance in Tibetan and Japanese (30–40%), but rare in most of other East Asian populations and populations from regions bordering East Asia (Central Asia, North Asia and Middle East) (usually less than 5%) [5-7]. Under D-M174, Japanese belongs to a separate sub-lineage defined by several mutations (e.g. M55, M57 and M64 etc.), which is different from those in Tibetans implicating relatively deep divergence between them [1]. The fragmented distribution of D-M174 in East Asia seems not consistent with the pattern of other East Asian specific lineages, i.e. O3-M122, O1-M119 and O2-M95 under haplogroup O [8,9].

--Hong Shi et al. 2008:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/6/45


quote:
Further refinement awaits the finding of new markers especially within paragroup E3a*-M2. The microsatellite profile of the DE* individual is one mutational step away from the allelic state described for Nigerians (DYS390*21, DYS388 not tested; [37], therefore suggesting a common ancestry but not elucidating the phylogenetics.
Haplogroup DE* in Guinea-Bissau:

Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau: a multiethnic perspective

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/7/124


quote:

There has been considerable debate on the geographic origin of the human Y chromosome Alu polymor- phism (YAP). Here we report a new, very rare deep-rooting haplogroup within the YAP clade, together with data on other deep-rooting YAP clades. The new haplogroup, found so far in only five Nigerians, is the least-derived YAP haplogroup according to currently known binary markers. However, because the interior branching order of the Y chromosome genealogical tree remains unknown, it is impossible to impute the origin of the YAP clade with certainty. We discuss the problems presented by rare deep-rooting lineages for Y chromosome phylogeography.

Haplogroup DE* in Nigerians:

Rare Deep-Rooting Y Chromosome Lineages in Humans: Lessons for Phylogeography

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1462739/pdf/14504230.pdf


Y-DNA haplogroup R-M207 is believed to have arisen approximately 27,000 years ago in Asia. The two currently defined subclades are R1 and R2.

quote:
‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups.


All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14].

In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome.

Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1)


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3492319/figure/pone-0049170-g001/

Figure S1

Structure of the macro-haplogroup CT. For details on mutations see legend to Figure 1. Dashed lines indicate putative branchings (no positive control available). The position of V248 (haplogroup C2) and V87 (haplogroup C3) compared to mutations that define internal branches was not determined. Note that mutations V45, V69 and V88 have been previously mapped (Cruciani et al. 2010; Eur J Hum Genet 18∶800–807).

(TIF)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3492319/bin/pone.0049170.s001.tif

--Fulvio Cruciani et al.

Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree (2011)


quote:
"haplogroup CF and DE molecular ancestors first evolved inside Africa and subsequently contributed as Y chromosome founders to pioneering migrations that successfully colonized Asia. While not proof, the DE and CF bifurcation (Figure 8d ) is consistent with independent colonization impulses possibly occurring in a short time interval."
Use of Y Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Population Structure in Tracing Human Migrations

--Peter A. Underhill , Toomas Kivisild - 2007


The Mal'ta boy didn't fell from the sky, onto Siberia near Lake Baikal?

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http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0007447


2009

Updating Phylogeny of Mitochondrial DNA Macrohaplogroup M in India: Dispersal of Modern Human in South Asian Corridor
Adimoolam Chandrasekar et al


Published: October 13, 2009
DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.000744


Abstract

To construct maternal phylogeny and prehistoric dispersals of modern human being in the Indian sub continent, a diverse subset of 641 complete mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) genomes belonging to macrohaplogroup M was chosen from a total collection of 2,783 control-region sequences, sampled from 26 selected tribal populations of India. On the basis of complete mtDNA sequencing, we identified 12 new haplogroups - M53 to M64; redefined/ascertained and characterized haplogroups M2, M3, M4, M5, M6, M8′C′Z, M9, M10, M11, M12-G, D, M18, M30, M33, M35, M37, M38, M39, M40, M41, M43, M45 and M49, which were previously described by control and/or coding-region polymorphisms. Our results indicate that the mtDNA lineages reported in the present study (except East Asian lineages M8′C′Z, M9, M10, M11, M12-G, D ) are restricted to Indian region.The deep rooted lineages of macrohaplogroup ‘M’ suggest in-situ origin of these haplogroups in India. Most of these deep rooting lineages are represented by multiple ethnic/linguist groups of India. Hierarchical analysis of molecular variation (AMOVA) shows substantial subdivisions among the tribes of India (Fst = 0.16164). The current Indian mtDNA gene pool was shaped by the initial settlers and was galvanized by minor events of gene flow from the east and west to the restricted zones. Northeast Indian mtDNA pool harbors region specific lineages, other Indian lineages and East Asian lineages. We also suggest the establishment of an East Asian gene in North East India through admixture rather than replacement.

Origin of Macrohaplogroup M

L3 lineages other than M and N are absent in India and among non-African mitochondria in general [2]–[3], [49]. M, N and R haplogroups of mtDNA have no indication of an African origin. However, it is proposed that the origin of haplogroup M is in Africa [34], in view of its high frequency in Ethiopia. But in 2006, by [35] demonstrated that the presence of M1 and U6 in Africa is due to a back migration. Sequencing of 81 entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroups M1 and U6 revealed that these predominantly North African Clades arose in Southwestern Asia and moved together to Africa about 40,000 to 45,000 years ago. Only some sub-sets of M1a (with an estimated coalescence time of 28.8±4.9ky), U6a2 (with an estimated coalescence time of 24.0±7.3ky), and U6d (with an estimated coalescence time of 20.6±7.3ky) diffused to East and North Africa through the Levant, leaving the origin of macrohaplogroup M unresolved. Haplogroup M has been found ubiquitous in India, although its frequency is somewhat higher in southern Indian populations than in northern Indian populations and to a large extent autochthonous because neither the East nor the West Eurasian mtDNA pools include such lineages at notable frequencies [37], [58]. Our findings, (for example, deep time depth >50,000 years of western, central, southern and eastern Indian haplogroups M2, M38, M54, M58, M33, M6, M61, M62 and distribution of macrohaplogroup M) do not rule out the possibility of macrohaplogroup M arising in Indian population.
Migration routes of modern human

Recent mtDNA evidence on modern human out of Africa migration route suggests a single dispersal by a southern coastal route to India and further, to East Asia and Australia [17], [20], [22], [23], [66], [69]. The North Asian route could not get support from mtDNA due to the lack of basal M, R, N lineages in northern Asians, thereby ruling out the existence of a northern Asian route [29]–[30], [70]–[71]. Proven back migration of sub lineages of M and U into Africa [35], and the absence of L3 lineages or ancestral lineage for L3, M and N in India, leaves two issues unresolved: evidences for the southern route hypothesis from India and origin of M haplogroup. However, in the present study, the basal diversity (37 nodes) and founder ages (57,000–75,000 years) of macrohaplogroup M in India reveals initial settlement of African exodus in India. Our database also reveals evidences that Andaman islanders and Australians have ancestral maternal roots in India [24], [43].

In summary, the present study provides evidence that several Indian mtDNA M lineages are deep rooted and in situ origin. In North East India the coalescent time of East Asian lineages dates back to Last Glacial Maximum (LGM). Further, the combination of virtually all previously reported lineages from South and East Asia and our newly produced Indian complete mtDNA sequences have helped to define several novel (sub) haplogroups. The present work further ascertained previously reported haplogroups, and refined the phylogenetic tree of South Asia. This updated phylogenetic tree provides an essential reference guide for diseases, anthropological and forensic studies among Asian populations.

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

The Mal'ta boy didn't fell from the sky, onto Siberia near Lake Baikal?

The Mal'ta boy was Khoisan. His ancestors were the first anatomically modern humans.

  • quote:

    “The genetic profile of the Paleoamericans, fails to correspond to that of contemporary Native Americans in the United States. Interestingly, the North American Paleoamerican DNA profile matches minor haplogroups predominately found in South America (Balter, 2015). Much of the DNA for Luzia the 12,000 year old skeleton from Brazil is corrupted, but researchers have recovered aDNA from Naia (Chatters et al., 2014) of Mexico, and the Anzick boy (Balter, 2015; Estes, 2015). The Anzick boy skeleton was found in Montana. This Paleoamerican belonged to the Clovis Culture, the same as Kennewick Man (Chatters, 1999; Chatters et al., 2014). The Anzick boy belonged to mtDNA M or D1, and y-chromosome R1 (Estes, 2015). Scientists have also recovered the DNA fromNaia (Chatters et al., 2014; Kumar, 2014). Naia belonged to haplogroup D1, which is a descendant of the M haplogroup (Chatters et al., 2014).

    Researchers have also recovered the aDNA of the ancient Europeans (Balter, 2015). The TMRCA of the paleoamericans were the Khoisan people. The Khoisan was the Cro-Magnon people of Europe (Winters, 2008, 2011). They were the first amh to enter western Eurasia (Winters, 2011). The Khoisan introduced haplogroup M to western Eurasia (Winters, 2011, 2014).

    The first Europeans like the paleoamericans were dark skinned (Winters, 2014). The aDNA of the first Europeans comes from the Ust’Ishim skeleton from Siberia (Blater, 2015). Ust’Ishim man carried the male lineage R1 (Balter, 2015; Immanuel, 2014a, 2014b). The mtDNA of Ust’Ishim belonged to haplogroup U (Balter, 2015). The R1 haplogroup was also carried by the Mal’ta boy in Western Eurasia (Blater, 2015; Immanuel, 2014a, 2014b). The Mal’ta boy also belonged to mtDNA haplogroup U (Balter, 2015; Immanuel, 2014a, 2014b). The U haplogroup was part of the M macrohaplogroup. The Khoisan carry haplogroupsL3(M, N).

    Prior to the Khoisan crossing the Straits of Gibraltar to reach Iberia, they probably stopped in West Africa (Winters, 2014). The basal L3(M) motif in West Africa is characterized by the Ddel site np 10,394 and Alul site np 10,397 which is associated with AF-24, a haplotype of haplogroup LOd (Winters, 2010). Granted L3 and L2 are not as old as LOd, but Gonder et al., (2006), provides an early date for, L3(M, N) 94.3kya. The South African Khoisan (SAK) carry L1c, L1, L2, L3 M, N dates to 142.3 kya; the Hadza are L2a, L2, L3, M, N, dates to 96.7 kya (Gonder et al., 2006).

    The origin dates for L1, L2, L3(M, N) make the haplogroups old enough for the Khoisan to have taken haplogroup M to West Africa, where we find L3, L2 and LOd and thence to Iberia (Winters, 2011). It is interesting to note that LO haplogroups are primarily found among Khoisan and West Africans (Winters, 2011). This shows that at some point in prehistory the Khoisan had migrated into West Africa. The major M haplogroup in Africa is M1(Winters, 2010). The M1 macrohaplogroup is found throughout Africa and Asia. But the basal M1 lineage has not been found outside Africa (Sun et al., 2006). However, on the basis of currently available FGS sequences, M1 markers have been found in the D4a branch of Haplogroup D, the most widespread branch of M1 in East Asia (Fucharoen et al., 2001; Yao et al., 2002). These transitions are recurrent in M1 and D4 (Gondor et al., 2006; Winters, 2010).”

    See: http://www.cibtech.org/J-Microbiology/PUBLICATIONS/2015/Vol-4-No-1/03-CJM-004-CLYDE-AFRICAN-DNA.pdf



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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0007447


2009

Updating Phylogeny of Mitochondrial DNA Macrohaplogroup M in India: Dispersal of Modern Human in South Asian Corridor
Adimoolam Chandrasekar et al


Published: October 13, 2009
DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.000744


Abstract

To construct maternal phylogeny and prehistoric dispersals of modern human being in the Indian sub continent, a diverse subset of 641 complete mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) genomes belonging to macrohaplogroup M was chosen from a total collection of 2,783 control-region sequences, sampled from 26 selected tribal populations of India. On the basis of complete mtDNA sequencing, we identified 12 new haplogroups - M53 to M64; redefined/ascertained and characterized haplogroups M2, M3, M4, M5, M6, M8′C′Z, M9, M10, M11, M12-G, D, M18, M30, M33, M35, M37, M38, M39, M40, M41, M43, M45 and M49, which were previously described by control and/or coding-region polymorphisms. Our results indicate that the mtDNA lineages reported in the present study (except East Asian lineages M8′C′Z, M9, M10, M11, M12-G, D ) are restricted to Indian region.The deep rooted lineages of macrohaplogroup ‘M’ suggest in-situ origin of these haplogroups in India. Most of these deep rooting lineages are represented by multiple ethnic/linguist groups of India. Hierarchical analysis of molecular variation (AMOVA) shows substantial subdivisions among the tribes of India (Fst = 0.16164). The current Indian mtDNA gene pool was shaped by the initial settlers and was galvanized by minor events of gene flow from the east and west to the restricted zones. Northeast Indian mtDNA pool harbors region specific lineages, other Indian lineages and East Asian lineages. We also suggest the establishment of an East Asian gene in North East India through admixture rather than replacement.

Origin of Macrohaplogroup M

L3 lineages other than M and N are absent in India and among non-African mitochondria in general [2]–[3], [49]. M, N and R haplogroups of mtDNA have no indication of an African origin. However, it is proposed that the origin of haplogroup M is in Africa [34], in view of its high frequency in Ethiopia. But in 2006, by [35] demonstrated that the presence of M1 and U6 in Africa is due to a back migration. Sequencing of 81 entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroups M1 and U6 revealed that these predominantly North African Clades arose in Southwestern Asia and moved together to Africa about 40,000 to 45,000 years ago. Only some sub-sets of M1a (with an estimated coalescence time of 28.8±4.9ky), U6a2 (with an estimated coalescence time of 24.0±7.3ky), and U6d (with an estimated coalescence time of 20.6±7.3ky) diffused to East and North Africa through the Levant, leaving the origin of macrohaplogroup M unresolved. Haplogroup M has been found ubiquitous in India, although its frequency is somewhat higher in southern Indian populations than in northern Indian populations and to a large extent autochthonous because neither the East nor the West Eurasian mtDNA pools include such lineages at notable frequencies [37], [58]. Our findings, (for example, deep time depth >50,000 years of western, central, southern and eastern Indian haplogroups M2, M38, M54, M58, M33, M6, M61, M62 and distribution of macrohaplogroup M) do not rule out the possibility of macrohaplogroup M arising in Indian population.
Migration routes of modern human

Recent mtDNA evidence on modern human out of Africa migration route suggests a single dispersal by a southern coastal route to India and further, to East Asia and Australia [17], [20], [22], [23], [66], [69]. The North Asian route could not get support from mtDNA due to the lack of basal M, R, N lineages in northern Asians, thereby ruling out the existence of a northern Asian route [29]–[30], [70]–[71]. Proven back migration of sub lineages of M and U into Africa [35], and the absence of L3 lineages or ancestral lineage for L3, M and N in India, leaves two issues unresolved: evidences for the southern route hypothesis from India and origin of M haplogroup. However, in the present study, the basal diversity (37 nodes) and founder ages (57,000–75,000 years) of macrohaplogroup M in India reveals initial settlement of African exodus in India. Our database also reveals evidences that Andaman islanders and Australians have ancestral maternal roots in India [24], [43].

In summary, the present study provides evidence that several Indian mtDNA M lineages are deep rooted and in situ origin. In North East India the coalescent time of East Asian lineages dates back to Last Glacial Maximum (LGM). Further, the combination of virtually all previously reported lineages from South and East Asia and our newly produced Indian complete mtDNA sequences have helped to define several novel (sub) haplogroups. The present work further ascertained previously reported haplogroups, and refined the phylogenetic tree of South Asia. This updated phylogenetic tree provides an essential reference guide for diseases, anthropological and forensic studies among Asian populations.

This is my response to this article.

quote:
  • Macrohaplogroup M Did not Originate in India

    Posted by Clyde98 on 21 Aug 2011 at 06:11 GMT

    by

    Clyde Winters

    Chandrasekar et al provide a good discussion of the phylogeny of Indian macrohaplogroup M. Although they claimed to have examined all of the M haplogroups in India they failed to discuss haplogroup M1, which is also found in India [3-4]. This failure to discuss all the M lineages in India cast doubt on the conclusions of the authors of this study.

    The researchers argue that the M macrohaplogroup in India developed in situ. They base this claim on the research of Gonzalez et al [1].

    Chandrasekar et al maintain that the research in [1] indicates that M1 probably originated in Southwest Asia and through a back migration hg M and U6 returned to Africa. This is false hg M probably originated in Africa, not Asia [3].

    Chandrasekar et al claim that hg M arose in Southwest Asia 40kya. This date is ludicrous because Neanderthals lived in that region at this time. The only anatomically modern humans in Western Eurasia at this time were Cro-Magnon man who carried haplogroup N.

    To estimate the coalescence age of haplogroup M1 Gonzalez et al [1] analyzed 13 complete sequences of haplogroup M1.

    Gonzalez et al claims that the M1c lineage is the oldest M1 subclade based on the coalescence age estimation of the M1 subgroup: M1a (16756 +-5997), M1b (10155 +-3590) and M1c (19040+-4916). This makes M1a and M1b the youngest clades.

    The available sample for M1c was complete sequences from individuals found in Jordan, Senegal, and Spain. The small data set make a precise estimation of the errors in the data uncertain.

    The limited sample for M1c makes it difficult to effectively quantify the estimation error for the data, since error increases from level to level in models possessing a hierarchical structure.

    The small sample size makes the confidence intervals overlap. This calls into question the conclusions of Gonzalez et al [1] in relation to the ages of hg M1 despite the differing levels of hierarchy.

    In addition to the evidence of the coalescence age estimation in support of the antiquity of M1c, Gonzalez et al believe the presence of M1c among Jordanians is an important indicator for the ancient origin of this clade. The evidence of M1c in Jordan, does not really add to the hypothesis that M1c is the oldest clade because the presence of this clade in the Middle East can be explained by the thousands of West Africans who have taken the hajj to Mecca, and remained in the Middle East, instead of returning to West Africa.

    The Valencia sample can also be explained by the history of Islam. There is a direct link between Senegal and Yusuf ibn Tashufin. Yusuf founded the Almoravids. The Almoravid empire extended from Senegal to Spain [2].

    This link comes from the fact that many of the followers of Tashufin came from the ribats or ‘religious schools’ he had established in northern Senegal. Troops from these ribats formed the backbone of Tashufin’s army when he invaded Spain in 1086[2]. These African Muslims ruled much of Spain until 1492. Since M1c is presently found in Senegal, the carrier of M1c reported by Gonzalez et al in Valencia may be a descendent of these African Almoravids that ruled Spain for over 700 years

    Sub-Saharan Africans probably spread hg M1c to Eurasia. Gonzalez et al reported that the carriers of the M1c subset were from Jordan, Senegal and Valencia [1]. It was revealed above that 1) many of the Muslim troops in Tashufin’s army that conquered Spain in 1086 AD, came from Senegal; and 2) many West Africans after taking the Hajj, visited Jerusalem and settled in the Middle East. Even if we eliminate the Jordan sample, the evidence from Valencia and Senegal gives a 67% probability that M1c originated in Senegal, not Asia or North Africa because of the historical presence of Sub-Saharan Africans in both areas . This provides support for an African origin of M1.

    Chandrasekar et al claim that India is the only region where there is a variety of M subclades is also false. In Africa, for example in addition to M1, we also find haplogroups M3,M30 and M33.

    Chandrasekar et al claims that there is no influence of African haplogroups in India. The presence of M1 among South Indian Dravidian speakers make it clear that African mtDNA is found in India [1][3]. This along with African y-chromosomes and African HLA among Dravidian tribal groups indicate a recent African influence among South Indians [4-6]. This is not surprising since Dravidian speakers formerly belonged to the C-Group culture of Nubia, and only entered India 5kya [4].

    The distribution of continental African populations carrying M haplogroups favors Africa as the place of origin for this macrohaplogroup instead of India. The population distributions for the M macrohaplogroup in Africa make it clear that haplogroup M originated in Africa, not Asia or North Africa.


    Reference:

    1. Gonzalez , A. Jose M Larruga , Khaled K Abu-Amero , Yufei Shi , Jose Pestano and Vicente M Cabrera. (2007).Mitochondrial lineage M1 traces an early human backflow to Africa, BMC Genomics , 8:223 doi:10.1186/1471-2164-8-223. Retrieved on 9/15/2010 http://www.biomedcentral....

    2. Bovill,E.W. (1970). The Golden trade of the Moors. London: Oxford University Press.

    3. Winters,C. (2010). The African Origin of the M1 Haplogroup Introduction. Current Research Journal of Biological Sciences. Retrieved 8/20/2011 http://olmec98.net/afro_m...

    4. Winters, C.(2007). Did the Dravidian Speakers Originate in Africa? BioEssays,27(5):497-498.

    5.Winters, C. (2010). Y-chromosome evidence of an African origin of Dravidian Agriculture. Int J Genet & Molec Bio, 2(3):030-033. Retrieved 6/4/2010 at: http://www.academicjourna...

    6. Winters, C. (2010). 9bp and the Relationship Between African and Dravidian Speakers. Current Research Journal of Biological Sciences 2(4): 229-231. http://maxwellsci.com/pri...


    See: http://www.plosone.org/annotation/listThread.action?root=6633
    .



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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

Yeah, thanks for the reply.


This was posted by Clyde, do you agree?


The majority of M clades in Asia are carried by Dravidian people, Dravidian people originated in Africa and belonged to the C-Group people.

Try to find one peer review article that is not written by Clyde Winters that even mentions Dravidians and Nubian C group in the same article
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

The Mal'ta boy was Khoisan.

stop making up stuff, thanks
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Quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0007447


2009

Updating Phylogeny of Mitochondrial DNA Macrohaplogroup M in India: Dispersal of Modern Human in South Asian Corridor
Adimoolam Chandrasekar et al


Published: October 13, 2009
DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.000744


Abstract

To construct maternal phylogeny and prehistoric dispersals of modern human being in the Indian sub continent, a diverse subset of 641 complete mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) genomes belonging to macrohaplogroup M was chosen from a total collection of 2,783 control-region sequences, sampled from 26 selected tribal populations of India. On the basis of complete mtDNA sequencing, we identified 12 new haplogroups - M53 to M64; redefined/ascertained and characterized haplogroups M2, M3, M4, M5, M6, M8′C′Z, M9, M10, M11, M12-G, D, M18, M30, M33, M35, M37, M38, M39, M40, M41, M43, M45 and M49, which were previously described by control and/or coding-region polymorphisms. Our results indicate that the mtDNA lineages reported in the present study (except East Asian lineages M8′C′Z, M9, M10, M11, M12-G, D ) are restricted to Indian region.The deep rooted lineages of macrohaplogroup ‘M’ suggest in-situ origin of these haplogroups in India. Most of these deep rooting lineages are represented by multiple ethnic/linguist groups of India. Hierarchical analysis of molecular variation (AMOVA) shows substantial subdivisions among the tribes of India (Fst = 0.16164). The current Indian mtDNA gene pool was shaped by the initial settlers and was galvanized by minor events of gene flow from the east and west to the restricted zones. Northeast Indian mtDNA pool harbors region specific lineages, other Indian lineages and East Asian lineages. We also suggest the establishment of an East Asian gene in North East India through admixture rather than replacement.

Origin of Macrohaplogroup M

L3 lineages other than M and N are absent in India and among non-African mitochondria in general [2]–[3], [49]. M, N and R haplogroups of mtDNA have no indication of an African origin. However, it is proposed that the origin of haplogroup M is in Africa [34], in view of its high frequency in Ethiopia. But in 2006, by [35] demonstrated that the presence of M1 and U6 in Africa is due to a back migration. Sequencing of 81 entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroups M1 and U6 revealed that these predominantly North African Clades arose in Southwestern Asia and moved together to Africa about 40,000 to 45,000 years ago. Only some sub-sets of M1a (with an estimated coalescence time of 28.8±4.9ky), U6a2 (with an estimated coalescence time of 24.0±7.3ky), and U6d (with an estimated coalescence time of 20.6±7.3ky) diffused to East and North Africa through the Levant, leaving the origin of macrohaplogroup M unresolved. Haplogroup M has been found ubiquitous in India, although its frequency is somewhat higher in southern Indian populations than in northern Indian populations and to a large extent autochthonous because neither the East nor the West Eurasian mtDNA pools include such lineages at notable frequencies [37], [58]. Our findings, (for example, deep time depth >50,000 years of western, central, southern and eastern Indian haplogroups M2, M38, M54, M58, M33, M6, M61, M62 and distribution of macrohaplogroup M) do not rule out the possibility of macrohaplogroup M arising in Indian population.
Migration routes of modern human

Recent mtDNA evidence on modern human out of Africa migration route suggests a single dispersal by a southern coastal route to India and further, to East Asia and Australia [17], [20], [22], [23], [66], [69]. The North Asian route could not get support from mtDNA due to the lack of basal M, R, N lineages in northern Asians, thereby ruling out the existence of a northern Asian route [29]–[30], [70]–[71]. Proven back migration of sub lineages of M and U into Africa [35], and the absence of L3 lineages or ancestral lineage for L3, M and N in India, leaves two issues unresolved: evidences for the southern route hypothesis from India and origin of M haplogroup. However, in the present study, the basal diversity (37 nodes) and founder ages (57,000–75,000 years) of macrohaplogroup M in India reveals initial settlement of African exodus in India. Our database also reveals evidences that Andaman islanders and Australians have ancestral maternal roots in India [24], [43].

In summary, the present study provides evidence that several Indian mtDNA M lineages are deep rooted and in situ origin. In North East India the coalescent time of East Asian lineages dates back to Last Glacial Maximum (LGM). Further, the combination of virtually all previously reported lineages from South and East Asia and our newly produced Indian complete mtDNA sequences have helped to define several novel (sub) haplogroups. The present work further ascertained previously reported haplogroups, and refined the phylogenetic tree of South Asia. This updated phylogenetic tree provides an essential reference guide for diseases, anthropological and forensic studies among Asian populations.

This is my response to this article.

quote:
  • Macrohaplogroup M Did not Originate in India

    Posted by Clyde98 on 21 Aug 2011 at 06:11 GMT

    by

    Clyde Winters

    Chandrasekar et al provide a good discussion of the phylogeny of Indian macrohaplogroup M. Although they claimed to have examined all of the M haplogroups in India they failed to discuss haplogroup M1, which is also found in India [3-4]. This failure to discuss all the M lineages in India cast doubt on the conclusions of the authors of this study.

    The researchers argue that the M macrohaplogroup in India developed in situ. They base this claim on the research of Gonzalez et al [1].

    Chandrasekar et al maintain that the research in [1] indicates that M1 probably originated in Southwest Asia and through a back migration hg M and U6 returned to Africa. This is false hg M probably originated in Africa, not Asia [3].

    Chandrasekar et al claim that hg M arose in Southwest Asia 40kya. This date is ludicrous because Neanderthals lived in that region at this time. The only anatomically modern humans in Western Eurasia at this time were Cro-Magnon man who carried haplogroup N.

    To estimate the coalescence age of haplogroup M1 Gonzalez et al [1] analyzed 13 complete sequences of haplogroup M1.

    Gonzalez et al claims that the M1c lineage is the oldest M1 subclade based on the coalescence age estimation of the M1 subgroup: M1a (16756 +-5997), M1b (10155 +-3590) and M1c (19040+-4916). This makes M1a and M1b the youngest clades.

    The available sample for M1c was complete sequences from individuals found in Jordan, Senegal, and Spain. The small data set make a precise estimation of the errors in the data uncertain.

    The limited sample for M1c makes it difficult to effectively quantify the estimation error for the data, since error increases from level to level in models possessing a hierarchical structure.

    The small sample size makes the confidence intervals overlap. This calls into question the conclusions of Gonzalez et al [1] in relation to the ages of hg M1 despite the differing levels of hierarchy.

    In addition to the evidence of the coalescence age estimation in support of the antiquity of M1c, Gonzalez et al believe the presence of M1c among Jordanians is an important indicator for the ancient origin of this clade. The evidence of M1c in Jordan, does not really add to the hypothesis that M1c is the oldest clade because the presence of this clade in the Middle East can be explained by the thousands of West Africans who have taken the hajj to Mecca, and remained in the Middle East, instead of returning to West Africa.

    The Valencia sample can also be explained by the history of Islam. There is a direct link between Senegal and Yusuf ibn Tashufin. Yusuf founded the Almoravids. The Almoravid empire extended from Senegal to Spain [2].

    This link comes from the fact that many of the followers of Tashufin came from the ribats or ‘religious schools’ he had established in northern Senegal. Troops from these ribats formed the backbone of Tashufin’s army when he invaded Spain in 1086[2]. These African Muslims ruled much of Spain until 1492. Since M1c is presently found in Senegal, the carrier of M1c reported by Gonzalez et al in Valencia may be a descendent of these African Almoravids that ruled Spain for over 700 years

    Sub-Saharan Africans probably spread hg M1c to Eurasia. Gonzalez et al reported that the carriers of the M1c subset were from Jordan, Senegal and Valencia [1]. It was revealed above that 1) many of the Muslim troops in Tashufin’s army that conquered Spain in 1086 AD, came from Senegal; and 2) many West Africans after taking the Hajj, visited Jerusalem and settled in the Middle East. Even if we eliminate the Jordan sample, the evidence from Valencia and Senegal gives a 67% probability that M1c originated in Senegal, not Asia or North Africa because of the historical presence of Sub-Saharan Africans in both areas . This provides support for an African origin of M1.

    Chandrasekar et al claim that India is the only region where there is a variety of M subclades is also false. In Africa, for example in addition to M1, we also find haplogroups M3,M30 and M33.

    Chandrasekar et al claims that there is no influence of African haplogroups in India. The presence of M1 among South Indian Dravidian speakers make it clear that African mtDNA is found in India [1][3]. This along with African y-chromosomes and African HLA among Dravidian tribal groups indicate a recent African influence among South Indians [4-6]. This is not surprising since Dravidian speakers formerly belonged to the C-Group culture of Nubia, and only entered India 5kya [4].

    The distribution of continental African populations carrying M haplogroups favors Africa as the place of origin for this macrohaplogroup instead of India. The population distributions for the M macrohaplogroup in Africa make it clear that haplogroup M originated in Africa, not Asia or North Africa.


    Reference:

    1. Gonzalez , A. Jose M Larruga , Khaled K Abu-Amero , Yufei Shi , Jose Pestano and Vicente M Cabrera. (2007).Mitochondrial lineage M1 traces an early human backflow to Africa, BMC Genomics , 8:223 doi:10.1186/1471-2164-8-223. Retrieved on 9/15/2010 http://www.biomedcentral....

    2. Bovill,E.W. (1970). The Golden trade of the Moors. London: Oxford University Press.

    3. Winters,C. (2010). The African Origin of the M1 Haplogroup Introduction. Current Research Journal of Biological Sciences. Retrieved 8/20/2011 http://olmec98.net/afro_m...

    4. Winters, C.(2007). Did the Dravidian Speakers Originate in Africa? BioEssays,27(5):497-498.

    5.Winters, C. (2010). Y-chromosome evidence of an African origin of Dravidian Agriculture. Int J Genet & Molec Bio, 2(3):030-033. Retrieved 6/4/2010 at: http://www.academicjourna...

    6. Winters, C. (2010). 9bp and the Relationship Between African and Dravidian Speakers. Current Research Journal of Biological Sciences 2(4): 229-231. http://maxwellsci.com/pri...


    See: http://www.plosone.org/annotation/listThread.action?root=6633
    .



Mainly spam. Your comment. continues your delusion that there is M1 in India. Either it is mental block, or you are so invested in this falsehood, that losing it will endanger all your work because the Dravidians are the key for your extension of "proto-Saharans" to other parts of the world. M1 and M3 are two things 1)labels for a series of mutations and 2) designations of the haplogroups people have. One can change role one as nomenclature conflicts arise without making role two disappear. You can claim that haplogroup M1 is present in India till the cows come home BUT There are no people in India with a haplogroup with SNPs (T195C! G6446A T6680C C12403T A12950c G16129A! T16189C! T16249C T16311C) i.e. the real M1. on the other hand there are millions in India with haplotype containing the SNPs (T482C T16126C ) i.e. M3.

Sun, C. et al. “The Dazzling Array of Basal Branches in the mtDNA Macrohaplogroup M from India as Inferred from Complete Genomes,” Mol. Biol. Evol. 23(3):683–690.

quote:

p. 688-689 A particular case in question is the origin of haplogroup M1, which is mainly found in Northeast Africa and the Near East (Quintana-Murci et al. 1999). Due to the fact that M1 bears variant nucleotides, for example, at site 16311 in common with haplogroup M4, at 16129 with M5, and at 16249 with haplogroup M34, it has been proposed that M1 might have some affinity with Indian M haplogroups (Roychoudhury et al. 2001). This inference, however, could not receive support from our complete sequencing information. Indeed, the reconstructed ancestral motifs of all Indian M haplogroups turned out to be devoid of those variations that characterized M1, that is, 6446, 6680, 12403, and 14110 (Maca-Meyer et al. 2001;Herrnstadt et al. 2002). Therefore, those common mutations in the control region rather reflect random parallel mutations. There is no evidence whatsoever that M1 originated in India.


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Clyde Winters
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The Dravidians originated in Africa. Dravidians carry the M1 haplogroup. In addition,in Cameroon we find carriers of R1a. In addition to carriers of R1a in Cameroon; the Dravidian languages are still spoken today in Cameroon see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWyAYGlFZjkhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWyAYGlFZjk

Kivisild et al (1999), admits that Dravidians carry M1, which is an African haplogroup. This article is just as relevant today as it was in 1999. People carry a particular gene do not just disappear.

The Eastern African hg M1, HVS-I signature motif is 16,129, 16,189, 16,223, 16,249, and 16,311. In the Kivisild et al figure below we see the same motif. The mutations are shown less 16,000.

Here you can clearly see:mutations 129,189, 223 and 311, in Indian M1, in Figure 3, of Kivisild et al, 1999.

 -


In the Kivisild et al 1999 study of Indian mtDNA around 15% carried haplogroup M1. See:

http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Kivisild1999b.pdf
.

 -


In Table 4, Kivisild et al, 1999, we see the frequency of M1 in India.There are 217 million Dravidian speakers in India, if we compare the frequency of M1 carriers to the Dravidian speaking community around 32 million people carry M1.


The frequency of 15% of the Dravidians carrying M1 shows the presence of M1 in India. As a result, your arguments are false and invalid.


quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
In 1999 potential confusion arose because 2 papers were published that called certain sequences M1. One had to change names, and Phylotree designated that the one carrying M16126 would now be named M3.

M1 16129 16189 16249 16311
M3 16126
Thus, it is absolutely clear that, at least since the year 2000, mutation at 16126 has designated haplogroup M3 and mutation at 16129 designates haplogroup M1.
This is what you see if you visit phylotre- the official naming site.

Is this what you questioned?

This argument is invalid. It implies that Phylotree promotes lies to maintain the status quo, and white supremacy.
Polytree is promoting lies and white supremacy because if the Eastern African hg M1, HVS-I signature motif is 16,129, 16,189, 16,223, 16,249, and 16,311 . As a result, when the motif is found outside Africa, the haplogroup remains M1, even if we find the 16126 mutation in Indian M1.


Clearly Phylotree is unreliable and based on Euroocentrism and white supremacy. This is obvious given the way R-M173 in Africa was changed into V88, and 207 in Africa was changed into V45. All of these efforts are simply misdirection aimed at containing Negroes in Africa, and separating Dravidian speakers from Africans.

Someone at Phylotree decided to name M1 in India, M3. Just because someone changed the name for Indian M1, does not erase M1 from India. You admit yourself that Phylotree is in charge of regulating nomenclature . Phylotree is not trying to prevent mixups, they are just trying to maintain the status quo and white supremacy.
Researchers maintain that the Eastern African HVS-I signature motifs are 16,129, 16,189, 16,249, and 16,311. This motiff is found in Indian M1, so it can not be changed into M3, because M3 already existed when Kivisild et al, was published in 1999.
.

 -

Gonzalez (2007) admits that M1 was found in India and cites Kivisild et al (1999). Ana Gonzalez (2007) wrote “The central HVSI haplotype (16129–16189–16223–16249–16311) has been found only once in northwestern India [27]. Another possible Indian M1 candidate is the derived sequence: 16086–16129–16223–16249–16259–16311 [28]”.
The other M1 lineages have different mutations. But that does not change the fact that they are M1.
 -
.
The presence of one transition, 126, in Indian M1, does not deny its existence as M1, since it is the only M haplogroup outside of Africa that carries the entire M1 motiff. Luckily, we have the original paper that proves that M1 in India exist.

Phylotree is just trying to maintain the myth that Africans and Dravidians are not related, A myth I have destroyed by 1) my papers on M1, 2) the absence of parallel mutation/adaptation as a explanation for the M haplogroups in India, and 3) shared African and Tribal Dravidian HLA-A and HLA-B.

If Africans and Dravidians share 9bp,YAP, y-chromosome H, HLA-A and HLA-B, it is only natural that they might carry hg M1. The decision to change the classification of M1 in India, given the M1 transitions in the control region of Indian M1, makes it clear the decision to rename Indian M1, was indeed a conspiracy.
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/9048/ng1299440awy8.gif

Gonzalez (2007) References:


27.Quintana-Murci L, Chaix R, Wells RS, Behar DM, Sayar H, Scozzari R, Rengo C, Al-Zahery N, Semino O, Santachiara-Benerecetti AS, Coppa A, Ayub Q, Mohyuddin A, Tyler-Smith C, Qasim Mehdi S, Torroni A, McElreavey K. Where West meets East: The complex mtDNA landscape of the Southwest and Central Asian corridor. Am J Hum Genet. 2004;74:827–845. doi: 10.1086/383236. [PMC free article] [PubMed] [Cross Ref]


28.Kivisild T, Kaldma K, Metspalu M, Parik J, Papiha SS, Villems R. The place of the Indian mitochondrial DNA variants in the global network of maternal lineages and the peopling of the Old World. In: Deka R, Papiha SS, editor. Genomic diversity. New York: Kluwer/Academic/Plenum Publishers; 1999. pp. 135–152.

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
Mainly spam. Your comment. continues your delusion that there is M1 in India. Either it is mental block, or you are so invested in this falsehood, that losing it will endanger all your work because the Dravidians are the key for your extension of "proto-Saharans" to other parts of the world. M1 and M3 are two things 1)labels for a series of mutations and 2) designations of the haplogroups people have. One can change role one as nomenclature conflicts arise without making role two disappear. You can claim that haplogroup M1 is present in India till the cows come home BUT There are no people in India with a haplogroup with SNPs (T195C! G6446A T6680C C12403T A12950c G16129A! T16189C! T16249C T16311C) i.e. the real M1. on the other hand there are millions in India with haplotype containing the SNPs (T482C T16126C ) i.e. M3.

Sun, C. et al. “The Dazzling Array of Basal Branches in the mtDNA Macrohaplogroup M from India as Inferred from Complete Genomes,” Mol. Biol. Evol. 23(3):683–690.

quote:

p. 688-689 A particular case in question is the origin of haplogroup M1, which is mainly found in Northeast Africa and the Near East (Quintana-Murci et al. 1999). Due to the fact that M1 bears variant nucleotides, for example, at site 16311 in common with haplogroup M4, at 16129 with M5, and at 16249 with haplogroup M34, it has been proposed that M1 might have some affinity with Indian M haplogroups (Roychoudhury et al. 2001). This inference, however, could not receive support from our complete sequencing information. Indeed, the reconstructed ancestral motifs of all Indian M haplogroups turned out to be devoid of those variations that characterized M1, that is, 6446, 6680, 12403, and 14110 (Maca-Meyer et al. 2001;Herrnstadt et al. 2002). Therefore, those common mutations in the control region rather reflect random parallel mutations. There is no evidence whatsoever that M1 originated in India.

[/QB]
There is nothing delusional in my proposition that M1 exist in India. Even Gonzalez (2007) admits that M1 was found in India and cites Kivisild et al (1999). Ana Gonzalez (2007) wrote “The central HVSI haplotype (16129–16189–16223–16249–16311) has been found only once in northwestern India [27]. Another possible Indian M1 candidate is the derived sequence: 16086–16129–16223–16249–16259–16311 [28]”.

Gonzalez (2007) References:


27.Quintana-Murci L, Chaix R, Wells RS, Behar DM, Sayar H, Scozzari R, Rengo C, Al-Zahery N, Semino O, Santachiara-Benerecetti AS, Coppa A, Ayub Q, Mohyuddin A, Tyler-Smith C, Qasim Mehdi S, Torroni A, McElreavey K. Where West meets East: The complex mtDNA landscape of the Southwest and Central Asian corridor. Am J Hum Genet. 2004;74:827–845. doi: 10.1086/383236. [PMC free article] [PubMed] [Cross Ref]


28.Kivisild T, Kaldma K, Metspalu M, Parik J, Papiha SS, Villems R. The place of the Indian mitochondrial DNA variants in the global network of maternal lineages and the peopling of the Old World. In: Deka R, Papiha SS, editor. Genomic diversity. New York: Kluwer/Academic/Plenum Publishers; 1999. pp. 135–152.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

The Mal'ta boy didn't fell from the sky, onto Siberia near Lake Baikal?

The Mal'ta boy was Khoisan. His ancestors were the first anatomically modern humans.

  • quote:

    “The genetic profile of the Paleoamericans, fails to correspond to that of contemporary Native Americans in the United States. Interestingly, the North American Paleoamerican DNA profile matches minor haplogroups predominately found in South America (Balter, 2015). Much of the DNA for Luzia the 12,000 year old skeleton from Brazil is corrupted, but researchers have recovered aDNA from Naia (Chatters et al., 2014) of Mexico, and the Anzick boy (Balter, 2015; Estes, 2015). The Anzick boy skeleton was found in Montana. This Paleoamerican belonged to the Clovis Culture, the same as Kennewick Man (Chatters, 1999; Chatters et al., 2014). The Anzick boy belonged to mtDNA M or D1, and y-chromosome R1 (Estes, 2015). Scientists have also recovered the DNA fromNaia (Chatters et al., 2014; Kumar, 2014). Naia belonged to haplogroup D1, which is a descendant of the M haplogroup (Chatters et al., 2014).

    Researchers have also recovered the aDNA of the ancient Europeans (Balter, 2015). The TMRCA of the paleoamericans were the Khoisan people. The Khoisan was the Cro-Magnon people of Europe (Winters, 2008, 2011). They were the first amh to enter western Eurasia (Winters, 2011). The Khoisan introduced haplogroup M to western Eurasia (Winters, 2011, 2014).

    The first Europeans like the paleoamericans were dark skinned (Winters, 2014). The aDNA of the first Europeans comes from the Ust’Ishim skeleton from Siberia (Blater, 2015). Ust’Ishim man carried the male lineage R1 (Balter, 2015; Immanuel, 2014a, 2014b). The mtDNA of Ust’Ishim belonged to haplogroup U (Balter, 2015). The R1 haplogroup was also carried by the Mal’ta boy in Western Eurasia (Blater, 2015; Immanuel, 2014a, 2014b). The Mal’ta boy also belonged to mtDNA haplogroup U (Balter, 2015; Immanuel, 2014a, 2014b). The U haplogroup was part of the M macrohaplogroup. The Khoisan carry haplogroupsL3(M, N).

    Prior to the Khoisan crossing the Straits of Gibraltar to reach Iberia, they probably stopped in West Africa (Winters, 2014). The basal L3(M) motif in West Africa is characterized by the Ddel site np 10,394 and Alul site np 10,397 which is associated with AF-24, a haplotype of haplogroup LOd (Winters, 2010). Granted L3 and L2 are not as old as LOd, but Gonder et al., (2006), provides an early date for, L3(M, N) 94.3kya. The South African Khoisan (SAK) carry L1c, L1, L2, L3 M, N dates to 142.3 kya; the Hadza are L2a, L2, L3, M, N, dates to 96.7 kya (Gonder et al., 2006).

    The origin dates for L1, L2, L3(M, N) make the haplogroups old enough for the Khoisan to have taken haplogroup M to West Africa, where we find L3, L2 and LOd and thence to Iberia (Winters, 2011). It is interesting to note that LO haplogroups are primarily found among Khoisan and West Africans (Winters, 2011). This shows that at some point in prehistory the Khoisan had migrated into West Africa. The major M haplogroup in Africa is M1(Winters, 2010). The M1 macrohaplogroup is found throughout Africa and Asia. But the basal M1 lineage has not been found outside Africa (Sun et al., 2006). However, on the basis of currently available FGS sequences, M1 markers have been found in the D4a branch of Haplogroup D, the most widespread branch of M1 in East Asia (Fucharoen et al., 2001; Yao et al., 2002). These transitions are recurrent in M1 and D4 (Gondor et al., 2006; Winters, 2010).”

    See: http://www.cibtech.org/J-Microbiology/PUBLICATIONS/2015/Vol-4-No-1/03-CJM-004-CLYDE-AFRICAN-DNA.pdf



Of course he was, this is what I have been showing all this time.


Back then, the Khosians phenotype was most prevalent.

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

Yeah, thanks for the reply.


This was posted by Clyde, do you agree?


The majority of M clades in Asia are carried by Dravidian people, Dravidian people originated in Africa and belonged to the C-Group people.

Try to find one peer review article that is not written by Clyde Winters that even mentions Dravidians and Nubian C group in the same article
As I asked you before. Do you agree?

This data is from after 2000, remember what you said?

Haplotypes with HVSI transitions defining 16129-16223-16249-16278-16311-16362; and 16129-16223-16234-16249-16211-16362 have been found in Thailand and among the Han Chinese (Fucharoen et al, 2001; Yao et al, 2002) and these were originally thought to be members of Haplogroup M1.

However, on the basis of currently available FGS sequences, carriers of these markers have been found to be in the D4a branch of Haplogroup D , the most widespread branch of M1 in East Asia (Fucharoen et al, 2001; Yao et al, 2002). The transitions 16129,16189,16249 and 16311 are known to be recurrent in various branches of Haplogroup M, especially M1 and D4.

As you can see geneticist change the name of haplogroups to create confusion and deny relationships between Africans and non-Africans.

Another example is V88, although it is R1-M173, it was given another name to make it appear to be different from the R1 group.

In summary CHINESE carry African clades.


References

Fucharoen G, Fucharoen S, Horai S: Mitochondrial DNA polymorphism in Thailand. J Hum Genet 2001, 46:115-125.

Yao YG, Kong QP, Bandelt HJ, Kivisild T, Zhang YP: Phylogeographic differentiation of mitochondrial DNA in Han chinese. Am J Hum Genet 2002 ,70:635-651.


quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

The Mal'ta boy was Khoisan.

stop making up stuff, thanks
Now that I'm on this, anyway. What was the cranial metric like?
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0007447


2009

Updating Phylogeny of Mitochondrial DNA Macrohaplogroup M in India: Dispersal of Modern Human in South Asian Corridor
Adimoolam Chandrasekar et al


Published: October 13, 2009
DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.000744


Abstract

To construct maternal phylogeny and prehistoric dispersals of modern human being in the Indian sub continent, a diverse subset of 641 complete mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) genomes belonging to macrohaplogroup M was chosen from a total collection of 2,783 control-region sequences, sampled from 26 selected tribal populations of India. On the basis of complete mtDNA sequencing, we identified 12 new haplogroups - M53 to M64; redefined/ascertained and characterized haplogroups M2, M3, M4, M5, M6, M8′C′Z, M9, M10, M11, M12-G, D, M18, M30, M33, M35, M37, M38, M39, M40, M41, M43, M45 and M49, which were previously described by control and/or coding-region polymorphisms. Our results indicate that the mtDNA lineages reported in the present study (except East Asian lineages M8′C′Z, M9, M10, M11, M12-G, D ) are restricted to Indian region.The deep rooted lineages of macrohaplogroup ‘M’ suggest in-situ origin of these haplogroups in India. Most of these deep rooting lineages are represented by multiple ethnic/linguist groups of India. Hierarchical analysis of molecular variation (AMOVA) shows substantial subdivisions among the tribes of India (Fst = 0.16164). The current Indian mtDNA gene pool was shaped by the initial settlers and was galvanized by minor events of gene flow from the east and west to the restricted zones. Northeast Indian mtDNA pool harbors region specific lineages, other Indian lineages and East Asian lineages. We also suggest the establishment of an East Asian gene in North East India through admixture rather than replacement.

Origin of Macrohaplogroup M

L3 lineages other than M and N are absent in India and among non-African mitochondria in general [2]–[3], [49]. M, N and R haplogroups of mtDNA have no indication of an African origin. However, it is proposed that the origin of haplogroup M is in Africa [34], in view of its high frequency in Ethiopia. But in 2006, by [35] demonstrated that the presence of M1 and U6 in Africa is due to a back migration. Sequencing of 81 entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroups M1 and U6 revealed that these predominantly North African Clades arose in Southwestern Asia and moved together to Africa about 40,000 to 45,000 years ago. Only some sub-sets of M1a (with an estimated coalescence time of 28.8±4.9ky), U6a2 (with an estimated coalescence time of 24.0±7.3ky), and U6d (with an estimated coalescence time of 20.6±7.3ky) diffused to East and North Africa through the Levant, leaving the origin of macrohaplogroup M unresolved. Haplogroup M has been found ubiquitous in India, although its frequency is somewhat higher in southern Indian populations than in northern Indian populations and to a large extent autochthonous because neither the East nor the West Eurasian mtDNA pools include such lineages at notable frequencies [37], [58]. Our findings, (for example, deep time depth >50,000 years of western, central, southern and eastern Indian haplogroups M2, M38, M54, M58, M33, M6, M61, M62 and distribution of macrohaplogroup M) do not rule out the possibility of macrohaplogroup M arising in Indian population.
Migration routes of modern human

Recent mtDNA evidence on modern human out of Africa migration route suggests a single dispersal by a southern coastal route to India and further, to East Asia and Australia [17], [20], [22], [23], [66], [69]. The North Asian route could not get support from mtDNA due to the lack of basal M, R, N lineages in northern Asians, thereby ruling out the existence of a northern Asian route [29]–[30], [70]–[71]. Proven back migration of sub lineages of M and U into Africa [35], and the absence of L3 lineages or ancestral lineage for L3, M and N in India, leaves two issues unresolved: evidences for the southern route hypothesis from India and origin of M haplogroup. However, in the present study, the basal diversity (37 nodes) and founder ages (57,000–75,000 years) of macrohaplogroup M in India reveals initial settlement of African exodus in India. Our database also reveals evidences that Andaman islanders and Australians have ancestral maternal roots in India [24], [43].

In summary, the present study provides evidence that several Indian mtDNA M lineages are deep rooted and in situ origin. In North East India the coalescent time of East Asian lineages dates back to Last Glacial Maximum (LGM). Further, the combination of virtually all previously reported lineages from South and East Asia and our newly produced Indian complete mtDNA sequences have helped to define several novel (sub) haplogroups. The present work further ascertained previously reported haplogroups, and refined the phylogenetic tree of South Asia. This updated phylogenetic tree provides an essential reference guide for diseases, anthropological and forensic studies among Asian populations.

quote:
"The presence of M haplogroup in Ethiopia, named M1, led to the proposal that haplogroup M originated in eastern Africa, approximately 60,000 years ago, and was carried towards Asia [34].


Macrohaplogroup M is ubiquitous in India and covers more than 70 per cent of the Indian mtDNA lineages [28], [36]–[38]. Recent studies on complete mtDNA sequences (~187) tried to resolve the phylogeny of Indian macrohaplogroup M. As a result, M2, M3, M4, M5, M6 [28], [36], [39]–[40], M18, M25 [38], M30, [41], M31 [42], [24] M33, M34, M35, M36, M37, M38, M39, M40 [22], M41, M42 [43], M43 [23], [44], M45 [45], M48, M49, and M50 [46] haplogroups of M that was identified in India helped to a certain extent in understanding M genealogy in diversified Indian populations. In the above background, extensive sequencing of complete mtDNA of South Asia, particularly India, is essential for better understanding of the peopling of the non-African continents, and pathogenesis of diseases in various ethnic groups with different matrilineal backgrounds."

--Adimoolam Chandrasekar et al. 2009


quote:

Updating Phylogeny of Mitochondrial DNA Macrohaplogroup M in India: Dispersal of Modern Human in South Asian Corridor


"Macrohaplogroup M (489-10400-14783-15043), excluding M1 which is east African, is distributed among most south, east and north Asians, Amerindians (containing a minority of north and central Amerindians and a majority of south Amerindians), and many central Asians and Melanesians."

--SUVENDU MAJI, S. KRITHIKA and T. S. VASULU (2009)

Phylogeographic distribution of mitochondrial DNA macrohaplogroup M in India

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Quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

Haplotypes with HVSI transitions defining 16129-16223-16249-16278-16311-16362; and 16129-16223-16234-16249-16211-16362 have been found in Thailand and among the Han Chinese (Fucharoen et al, 2001; Yao et al, 2002) and these were originally thought to be members of Haplogroup M1.

The M1 reference is your own. It is not in the papers cited. See below for recurrent mutations.

quote:
However, on the basis of currently available FGS sequences, carriers of these markers have been found to be in the D4a branch of Haplogroup D , the most widespread branch of M1 in East Asia (Fucharoen et al, 2001; Yao et al, 2002). The transitions 16129,16189,16249 and 16311 are known to be recurrent in various branches of Haplogroup M, especially M1 and D4.]

The difficulty here , and one that mystifies Clyde, are "recurrent mutations." Apparently some sites are more prone to mutations than others and thus can show up in different haplotypes. Thus it is important in determining a classification that all the identifying mutated SNPs be present. These are old papers by standards of the field-- I keep emphasizing that you need to check phylotree for changes that may have happened in the interval. M1 is defined by: T195C! G6446A T6680C C12403T A12950c G16129A! T16189C! T16249C T16311C!

Yao, Y-G, et al 2002 “Phylogeographic Differentiation of Mitochondrial DNA in Han Chinese,” Am. J. Human Genetics 70:635-651

polymorphisms 16129 and 16249 were not found


quote:
p 638 Among the three R* haplotypes that could not be classified as B or R9, two bear a mutation motif of 185-189-10398-16189-16311, similar to the motif of B5, but were found to lack the 9-bp deletion.

p. 641 Table 1 D4a 129 223 249 278 311 362

p 645 Type 1 (16223-[16311-16357) matches haplotypes from M10 (one sampled in Liaoning and another one in Yunnan).

p. 646 In contrast, sequence 19 (16223, 146-263) has no close companion (at distance two or fewer mutational steps) in the Han

The haplogroup affiliations of the resulting nine haplotypes, except for type 9 (16256-16278- 16295), can be recognized by following our classification strategy. Type 1 (16223-16311-16357) matches haplotypes from M10 (one sampled in Liaoning and another one in Yunnan), and type 7 (16284) matches a B4b haplotype from Liaoning. The other six types have one-step neighbors in the Han mtDNA database: type 2 (16223-16234-16290-16319) is thus related to A haplotypes from Wuhan and Yunnan; type 3 (16223-16298-16319- 16355) to M8a haplotypes from Qingdao and Wuhan; type 4 (16223-16266-16274-16362) to a D4 haplotype from Liaoning and to D5a haplotypes from Liaoning, Wuhan, Xinjiang, and Qingdao; type 6 (16223-16278- 16362) to two G2 haplotypes and type 8 (16223-16245- 16362-16368) to one D4 haplotype, all from Liaoning; finally, type 5 (16223-16357) is a one-step descendant of the matched M10 type 1 (but, alternatively, it would also be a one-step neighbor of an M* haplotype from Qingdao)

Fucharoen, et al .2001 “Mitochondrial DNA polymorphisms in Thailand,” J Hum Genet 46:115–125


Polymorphisms 16249, 16311 not present

quote:
p. 121 A G-to-A transition at 16129 occurred in the majority of lineages from C2 (71%) and C6(88%), whereas these two clusters appeared at discrete positions in the phylogenetic tree. Thus, the above three polymorphisms are due to either recurrent mutations or ancient polymorphisms.

Table 2

Cluster
C2 52 16108:C/T (40%) 16129:G/A (71%) 16162:A/G (44%) 16172:T/C (63%) 16304:T/C (92%) 16519:T/C (88%)

C5 10 16223:C/T (100%) 16278:C/T (60%) 16519:T/C (40%)

A C-to-T transition at 16223 (nucleotide position in the reference sequence of Anderson et al. 1981) was shared by most members in clusters C3a and C4 through C8, while this polymorphism was virtually absent in clusters C1, C2, and C3b.

As you can see in neither paper reports all the M1 identifiers.

These recurrent mutations (16129, 16223,16311) are incorporated in the new haplotypes reported . For example, D4a, B4b, M10, etc.

quote:
As you can see geneticist change the name of haplogroups to create confusion and deny relationships between Africans and non-Africans.

Another example is V88, although it is R1-M173, it was given another name to make it appear to be different from the R1 group.

In summary CHINESE carry African clades.

There are NO African genes in Thailand or China.

There is no "international genetics conspiracy" plotting to confuse Afrocentrics and "deny Africa its place in the world." This is the normal progress of science - as research discovers new haploypes and relationships among them in different populations the phylotree has to grow and develop new branches. To do so in an orderly fashion sometimes names have to change to avoid overlapping and confusion and there has to be one organization to keep track and be the official source. Just like IUPAC regulates nomenclature in chemistry as new compounds are made and discovered.

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
The difficulty here , and one that mystifies Clyde, are "recurrent mutations." Apparently some sites are more prone to mutations than others and thus can show up in different haplotypes. Thus it is important in determining a classification that all the identifying mutated SNPs be present. These are old papers by standards of the field-- I keep emphasizing that you need to check phylotree for changes that may have happened in the interval. M1 is defined by: T195C! G6446A T6680C C12403T A12950c G16129A! T16189C! T16249C T16311C! . [/QB]

There is no such thing as recurrent mutations. I proved this point in my articles on M1 mutations in India. See: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3168144/

LOL. This article was peer reviewed and appeared in a publication recognized by NCBI.

Also see: Advantageous Alleles, Parallel Adaptation, Geographic Location and Sickle Cell Anemia among Africans and Indians http://www.academia.edu/3036807/Advantageous_Alleles_Parallel_Adaptation_Geographic_Location_and_Sickle_Cell_Anemia_among_Africans_and_Indians
.

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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
The difficulty here , and one that mystifies Clyde, are "recurrent mutations." Apparently some sites are more prone to mutations than others and thus can show up in different haplotypes. Thus it is important in determining a classification that all the identifying mutated SNPs be present. These are old papers by standards of the field-- I keep emphasizing that you need to check phylotree for changes that may have happened in the interval. M1 is defined by: T195C! G6446A T6680C C12403T A12950c G16129A! T16189C! T16249C T16311C! .

There is no such thing as recurrent mutations. I proved this point in my articles on M1 mutations in India. See: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3168144/

LOL. This article was peer reviewed and appeared in a publication recognized by NCBI.

Also see: Advantageous Alleles, Parallel Adaptation, Geographic Location and Sickle Cell Anemia among Africans and Indians http://www.academia.edu/3036807/Advantageous_Alleles_Parallel_Adaptation_Geographic_Location_and_Sickle_Cell_Anemia_among_Africans_and_Indians
. [/QB]

Again delusions of grandeur. A google search for " DNA recurrent mutations" turns up 12,800,000 results. If you really had overturned the existence of recurrent mutations with your cherry-picked literature review, you should be getting a Nobel Prize. I'm sure that the American Journal of Human Evolution would be glad to publish such an earth shattering piece of research.
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
The M1 reference is your own. It is not in the papers cited. See below for recurrent mutations.

How can it be my own reference, when I cited Clyde Winters on this and asked you your opinion on it. While you responded with you other troll account.."

I looked up the references myself:


--Fucharoen, et al .

“Mitochondrial DNA polymorphisms in Thailand,” J Hum Genet 46:115–125

http://download.bioon.com.cn/upload/20110610/2011061071.pdf


-- Yao et a.

Phylogeographic Differentiation of Mitochondrial DNA in Han Chinese


Am J Hum Genet. 2002 Mar; 70(3): 635–651.
Published online 2002 Feb 8. doi: 10.1086/338999

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC384943/


quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:


The difficulty here , and one that mystifies Clyde, are "recurrent
mutations." Apparently some sites are more prone to mutations than others and thus can show up in different haplotypes. Thus it is important in determining a classification that all the identifying mutated SNPs be present. These are old papers by standards of the field--

I keep emphasizing that you need to check phylotree for changes that may have happened in the interval. M1 is defined by: T195C! G6446A T6680C C12403T A12950c G16129A! T16189C! T16249C T16311C!

Yao, Y-G, et al 2002 “Phylogeographic Differentiation of Mitochondrial DNA in Han Chinese,” Am. J. Human Genetics 70:635-651

polymorphisms 16129 and 16249 were not found

I agree, these are old papers.

So these "recurrent mutations" (16129, 16223 and 16311) have never been found in Africa?


mtDNA Haplogroup Specific Control Region Mutation Motifs

http://mtmanager.yonsei.ac.kr/help/MutationMotifs.pdf


C16223T
T16311C

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21042748


Apparently Clyde has more papers out, which have been recognized by NCBI.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Winters%20C%5Bauth%5D

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Recurrent mutations in melanoma detected by genome sequencing


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-Qp2MhHT6g

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quote:
Phylogenetic Tree of Global Mitochondrial DNA

Every person alive today can trace their maternal lineage to a single woman who lived in Africa approximately 160,000 years ago. She has been called the "Mitochondrial Eve" - there is no relation at all to the biblical Eve. As our ancestors migrated out of Africa and settled in Europe, Asia and the Americas, mutations occurred that became part of the genetic make-up of particular geographical populations. This diagram depicts how these mutations led to branching in the phylogenetic tree of mtDNA. The letters in boxes represent mitochondrial haplogroups, or "clans", that are comprised of people with similar lineages. The numbers on the lines are positions within the mitochondrial genome at which polymorphisms (mutations) are found that define the haplogroup.

The numbers next to some of the boxes are approximate coalescent times, i.e., the time in the past that the haplogroup originated. Coalescent times are in thousands of years (Kivisild, 2006).

http://www.cagetti.com/Genetics/reportmtdna.pdf


quote:

Distribution of variation in mtDNA genomes among human populations


Compared to the estimates based on autosomal data the observed differences in mitochondrial sequences among human populations on a global scale are significantly higher and second only to the differences based on Y chromosomes, with Africa showing the highest within region diversity and Native Americans having the lowest [56]. As it has been repeatedly shown with ever increas- ing sample sizes that are reaching tens of thousands of individuals now [68], the root of the mtDNA phylogeny and the most diverse branches are restricted to African populations (Figure 2). Using the maximum molecular resolution enabled by the analysis of whole mtDNA ge- nomes, the first seven bifurcations in this tree, in fact, define the distinction of strictly sub-Saharan African branches (L0-L6) from those that are shared by Africans and non-African populations. Analyses of whole mtDNA sequences of sub-Saharan Africans have revealed early, ca 90 to 150 thousand years (ky) old divergence of the L0d and L0k lineages that are specific to the Khoisan populations from South Africa and it has been estimated that during this time period at least six additional line- ages existed in Africa with living descendants [53,54]. In contrast to the overall high basal clade diversity and geographic structure some terminal branches from haplogroups L0a, L1c, L2a, and L3e show recent co- alescent times and wide geographical distribution in Africa, likely due to the recent Bantu expansion [70-72].

[...]


The fact that virtually every non-African mtDNA lineage derives from just one of the two sub-clades of the African haplogroup L3 (Figure 2) has been inter- preted as an evidence of a major bottleneck of mtDNA diversity at the onset of the out of Africa dispersal [74]. The magnitude of this bottleneck has been estimated from the whole mtDNA sequence data yielding the esti- mates of the effective population size which range be- tween several hundred [75] and only few tens of females [56]. The separation of these two sub-clades, M and N, from their African sister-clades in L3 can be dated back to 62 to 95 kya [48] whereas the internal coalescent time estimates of the M and N founders have been estimated in the range of 40 to 70 ky [26,28,75] and suggest that their dispersal occurred probably after rather than before the eruption of Mount Toba 74 kya in Indonesia, one of the Earth’s largest known volcanic events in human his- tory. Archaeological evidence from Jurreru River valley, India, has shown the presence of artefacts right above and below the layers of ash associated with the Toba eruption [76]. It is not clear whether the makers of these artefacts were archaic or anatomically modern humans. As in case of the global TMRCA estimate considered above the wide error ranges around the age estimates of haplogroups M and N reflect primarily the uncertainties of the mutation rate - in relative terms, the age estimates of M and N, as determined from whole mtDNA se- quences form approximately one third of the total depth of the global mtDNA tree. Claims for relatively recent, post-Toba, time depth of the non-African founder- haplogroups have been recently supported by the aDNA evidence of the 45 kya Ust-Ishim skeleton whose whole mtDNA sequence falls at the root of haplogroup R [50]. While haplogroups M and N are widely spread in Asia, Australia, Oceania and Americas, the geographic distri- bution of each of their sub-clades has more specific re- gional configuration (Figure 2).


--Kivisild Investigative Genetics (2015) 6:3 DOI 10.1186/s13323-015-0022-2


Maternal ancestry and population history from whole mitochondrial genomes


http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/pdf/s13323-015-0022-2.pdf


http://www.phylotree.org

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

Yeah, thanks for the reply.


This was posted by Clyde, do you agree?


The majority of M clades in Asia are carried by Dravidian people, Dravidian people originated in Africa and belonged to the C-Group people.

Try to find one peer review article that is not written by Clyde Winters that even mentions Dravidians and Nubian C group in the same article
I had to look it up, ...


Dravidian and Nubian


http://www.jstor.org/stable/593167?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents


IOSR Journal Of Humanities And Social Science (IOSR-JHSS) Volume 20, Issue 2, Ver. V (Feb. 2015), PP 66-72
e-ISSN: 2279-0837, p-ISSN: 2279-0845. www.iosrjournals.org
Comparative Visual Analysis of Symbolic and Illegible Indus Valley Script with Other Languages

Mrs. Maria Ansari1, Mr. Farjad Faiz2, Ms. Amna Ansari3
1,2, University College of Art and Design, The Islamia University Bahawalpur, Pakistan 3.College of Art and Design, Punjab University Lahore, Pakistan

http://iosrjournals.org/iosr-jhss/papers/Vol20-issue2/Version-5/K020256672.pdf


Dravidian costumes and household articles
Dr.A.Sagayadoss,
Director Council of Agri Geo Environmental Research Bengaluru

http://www.academiaandsocietyjournal.com/uploads/3/8/8/5/38850075/1.__dravidian_costumes_and_household_articles.pdf


Apparently there is support for Clyde's theory.

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Mike111
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quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
If you really had overturned the existence of recurrent mutations with your cherry-picked literature review, you should be getting a Nobel Prize. I'm sure that the American Journal of Human Evolution would be glad to publish such an earth shattering piece of research.

As demonstrated by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor posting on Dravidian language being an African language, and my own postings on the relationship between skin color and vitamin D absorption (None).

Albinos wisely demand "Peer Reviewed" (Read White people) acceptance because they know that White scientists and academics will NEVER admit the TRUTH about White/Albino people.

Luckily many Indian and other non-White scientists and academics are finding the courage to publish the truth.

TP - Nice work, I'm going to start a new thread with your post.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

Yeah, thanks for the reply.


This was posted by Clyde, do you agree?


The majority of M clades in Asia are carried by Dravidian people, Dravidian people originated in Africa and belonged to the C-Group people.

Try to find one peer review article that is not written by Clyde Winters that even mentions Dravidians and Nubian C group in the same article
I had to look it up, ...


Dravidian and Nubian


http://www.jstor.org/stable/593167?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents


IOSR Journal Of Humanities And Social Science (IOSR-JHSS) Volume 20, Issue 2, Ver. V (Feb. 2015), PP 66-72
e-ISSN: 2279-0837, p-ISSN: 2279-0845. www.iosrjournals.org
Comparative Visual Analysis of Symbolic and Illegible Indus Valley Script with Other Languages

Mrs. Maria Ansari1, Mr. Farjad Faiz2, Ms. Amna Ansari3
1,2, University College of Art and Design, The Islamia University Bahawalpur, Pakistan 3.College of Art and Design, Punjab University Lahore, Pakistan

http://iosrjournals.org/iosr-jhss/papers/Vol20-issue2/Version-5/K020256672.pdf


Dravidian costumes and household articles
Dr.A.Sagayadoss,
Director Council of Agri Geo Environmental Research Bengaluru

http://www.academiaandsocietyjournal.com/uploads/3/8/8/5/38850075/1.__dravidian_costumes_and_household_articles.pdf


Apparently there is support for Clyde's theory.

One is written by an Lecturer at the University College of Art and Design, (M.A.) The Islamia University Bahawalpur in Pakistan.
She mentions Clyde's "deciperment"
Another article is by
Dr.A.Sagayadoss,Independent Researcher with a Ph.D in Industrial waste water treatments

The other is a 1932 article , I haven't read called
"Dravidian and Nubian" by an Edwin H Tuttle
he also wrote
" Finnic and Dravidian" in 1911 and
"Turkish and Dravidian" in 1912

Appaently these Dravidians were all over the place

 -

Clyde's gone mainstream

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

Yeah, thanks for the reply.


This was posted by Clyde, do you agree?


The majority of M clades in Asia are carried by Dravidian people, Dravidian people originated in Africa and belonged to the C-Group people.

Try to find one peer review article that is not written by Clyde Winters that even mentions Dravidians and Nubian C group in the same article
I had to look it up, ...


Dravidian and Nubian


http://www.jstor.org/stable/593167?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents


IOSR Journal Of Humanities And Social Science (IOSR-JHSS) Volume 20, Issue 2, Ver. V (Feb. 2015), PP 66-72
e-ISSN: 2279-0837, p-ISSN: 2279-0845. www.iosrjournals.org
Comparative Visual Analysis of Symbolic and Illegible Indus Valley Script with Other Languages

Mrs. Maria Ansari1, Mr. Farjad Faiz2, Ms. Amna Ansari3
1,2, University College of Art and Design, The Islamia University Bahawalpur, Pakistan 3.College of Art and Design, Punjab University Lahore, Pakistan

http://iosrjournals.org/iosr-jhss/papers/Vol20-issue2/Version-5/K020256672.pdf


Dravidian costumes and household articles
Dr.A.Sagayadoss,
Director Council of Agri Geo Environmental Research Bengaluru

http://www.academiaandsocietyjournal.com/uploads/3/8/8/5/38850075/1.__dravidian_costumes_and_household_articles.pdf


Apparently there is support for Clyde's theory.

One is written by an Lecturer at the University College of Art and Design, (M.A.) The Islamia University Bahawalpur in Pakistan.
She mentions Clyde's "deciperment"


The other is a 1932 article , I haven't read called
"Dravidian and Nubian" by an Edwin H Tuttle
he also wrote
" Finnic and Dravidian" in 1911 and
"Turkish and Dravidian" in 1912

Appaently these Dravidians were all over the place

 -

You are right the Dravidians traveled to number of locations in Eurasia after they left the Proto-Saharan along with the Mande speaking people.You can find out more about their travels and settlements in the articles below and my book on the Tamil in Central Asia. Enjoy

https://www.academia.edu/1876838/Proto-Dravidians_In_Dravidian_Encyclopaedia

https://www.academia.edu/1876839/Proto-Sahara_In_Dravidian_Encyclopaedia
Proto-Dravidians in Central Asia
https://www.academia.edu/3036804/The_Proto-

Dravidians_in_Central_Asia
https://www.academia.edu/1805516/The_Dravidian-Harappan_Colonization_of_Central_Asia

 -

.
Click the book cover to order the book.

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Quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
The M1 reference is your own. It is not in the papers cited. See below for recurrent mutations.

How can it be my own reference, when I cited Clyde Winters on this and asked you your opinion on it. While you responded with you other troll account.."

I looked up the references myself:


--Fucharoen, et al .

“Mitochondrial DNA polymorphisms in Thailand,” J Hum Genet 46:115–125

http://download.bioon.com.cn/upload/20110610/2011061071.pdf


-- Yao et a.

Phylogeographic Differentiation of Mitochondrial DNA in Han Chinese


Am J Hum Genet. 2002 Mar; 70(3): 635–651.
Published online 2002 Feb 8. doi: 10.1086/338999

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC384943/


quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:


The difficulty here , and one that mystifies Clyde, are "recurrent
mutations." Apparently some sites are more prone to mutations than others and thus can show up in different haplotypes. Thus it is important in determining a classification that all the identifying mutated SNPs be present. These are old papers by standards of the field--

I keep emphasizing that you need to check phylotree for changes that may have happened in the interval. M1 is defined by: T195C! G6446A T6680C C12403T A12950c G16129A! T16189C! T16249C T16311C!

Yao, Y-G, et al 2002 “Phylogeographic Differentiation of Mitochondrial DNA in Han Chinese,” Am. J. Human Genetics 70:635-651

polymorphisms 16129 and 16249 were not found

I agree, these are old papers.

So these "recurrent mutations" (16129, 16223 and 16311) have never been found in Africa?


mtDNA Haplogroup Specific Control Region Mutation Motifs

http://mtmanager.yonsei.ac.kr/help/MutationMotifs.pdf


C16223T
T16311C

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21042748


Apparently Clyde has more papers out, which have been recognized by NCBI.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Winters%20C%5Bauth%5D

Sorry. Sometimes when the posts say "quote" too many times it is not clear to whom you are responding.my answer was meant for Clyde.

Of course 16129, 16223, 163211 are found in Africa! They are the defining SNP's for M1 an African haplotype.

Being listed in the NCI is not any kind of official recognition. If one is interested in what the quality of a particular journal, the place to look is the listing of impact factor of journals
http://www.citefactor.org/journal-impact-factor-list-2014_I.html

The only journal I found in which Winters published original articles (not comments or letters which as I have shown are not reviewed) was the International Journal of Human genetics. This journal asked the author to send in the names of 3 proposed reviewers (in most peer reviewed journals editors choose the reviewers). Its impact factor is.0155

Journal impact factor
Int. J Hum. genetics 0.155
PlOs ONE 4.411
BSC genetics 2.439
BSC genomics 3.716
Am. J Human genetics 10.987
Science 31.027
Nature 42.351

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Quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

Yeah, thanks for the reply.


This was posted by Clyde, do you agree?


The majority of M clades in Asia are carried by Dravidian people, Dravidian people originated in Africa and belonged to the C-Group people.

Try to find one peer review article that is not written by Clyde Winters that even mentions Dravidians and Nubian C group in the same article
I had to look it up, ...


Dravidian and Nubian


http://www.jstor.org/stable/593167?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents


IOSR Journal Of Humanities And Social Science (IOSR-JHSS) Volume 20, Issue 2, Ver. V (Feb. 2015), PP 66-72
e-ISSN: 2279-0837, p-ISSN: 2279-0845. www.iosrjournals.org
Comparative Visual Analysis of Symbolic and Illegible Indus Valley Script with Other Languages

Mrs. Maria Ansari1, Mr. Farjad Faiz2, Ms. Amna Ansari3
1,2, University College of Art and Design, The Islamia University Bahawalpur, Pakistan 3.College of Art and Design, Punjab University Lahore, Pakistan

http://iosrjournals.org/iosr-jhss/papers/Vol20-issue2/Version-5/K020256672.pdf


Dravidian costumes and household articles
Dr.A.Sagayadoss,
Director Council of Agri Geo Environmental Research Bengaluru

http://www.academiaandsocietyjournal.com/uploads/3/8/8/5/38850075/1.__dravidian_costumes_and_household_articles.pdf


Apparently there is support for Clyde's theory.

No. My original question: "Try to find one peer review article that is not written by Clyde Winters that even mentions Dravidians and Nubian C group in the same article."

The second paper is an open (not reviewed ) access paper. The last paper is uploaded by the author to Academia.edu, and not reviewed or published in a journal.

The first article 1932 was published before Clyde was born. I did not want to spend money to see if the C-group was the Nubian connection.

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Mike111
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quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
The only journal I found in which Winters published original articles (not comments or letters which as I have shown are not reviewed) was the International Journal of Human genetics. This journal asked the author to send in the names of 3 proposed reviewers (in most peer reviewed journals editors choose the reviewers). Its impact factor is.0155

Journal impact factor
Int. J Hum. genetics 0.155
PlOs ONE 4.411
BSC genetics 2.439
BSC genomics 3.716
Am. J Human genetics 10.987
Science 31.027
Nature 42.351

Which part of Albino opinion/acceptance/rating, means nothing in the absence of rational fact based refutation, don't you understand? Prove your points with facts, not Albino opinions. Otherwise, go peddle your sh1t to Albinos and Negroes.
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Clyde Winters
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My articles are cited in peer reviewed journals.

  • The Fulani are not from the Middle East .
    Cited in

    Hypertension and other cardiovascular risk factors in a semi-nomadic Fulani population in Kano, Nigeria
    Kamilu Musa Karaye, Muzammil M. Yakasai, Umar Abdullahi, Muh

    Origin of the Niger-Congo Speakers
    Cited in 1:

    Naazneen Khan, Veena Pande, Aparup Das ,NAT2 sequence polymorphisms and acetylation profiles in Indians ,PHARMACOGENOMICS 14(3):289-303 · JANUARY 2013

    Article: Did the Dravidian speakers originate in Africa? and Sickle Cell Anemia In India And Africa and
    Origin and spread of Dravidian speakers

    M Kaur, Cbs Dangi, M Singh, H Singh, S Kapoor, Burden of sickle cell diseases among tribes of India—a burning problem, https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263655797_Burden_of_sickle_cell_diseases_among_tribes_of_Indiaa_burning_problem


    G Suhasini, E Sonaa, S Shila, C R Srikumari, G Jayaraman, A Ram. Genetic admixture studies on four in situ evolved, two migrant and twenty-one ethnic populations of Tamil Nadu, south India, JOURNAL OF GENETICS 90(2):191-202 · JULY 2011. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51597667_Genetic_admixture_studies_on_four_in_situ_evolved_two_migrant_and_twenty-one_ethnic_populations_of_Tamil_Nadu_south_India

    Article : Y-Chromosome evidence of an African origin of Dravidian agriculture
    Cited:
    Avijit Kundu, Niladri Topdar, Debabrata Sarkar, Mohit Kumar Sinha, A, Origins of white (Corchorus capsularis L.) and dark (C. olitorius L.) jute: A reevaluation based on nuclear and chloroplast... JOURNAL OF PLANT BIOCHEMISTRY AND BIOTECHNOLOGY · SEPTEMBER 2012,https://www.researchgate.net/publication/235666683_Origins_of_white_(Corchorus_capsularis_L.)_and_dark_(C._olitorius_L.)_jute_A_reevaluation_based_on_nuclear_and_chloroplast_m icrosatellites

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

Yeah, thanks for the reply.


This was posted by Clyde, do you agree?


The majority of M clades in Asia are carried by Dravidian people, Dravidian people originated in Africa and belonged to the C-Group people.

Try to find one peer review article that is not written by Clyde Winters that even mentions Dravidians and Nubian C group in the same article
I had to look it up, ...


Dravidian and Nubian


http://www.jstor.org/stable/593167?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents


IOSR Journal Of Humanities And Social Science (IOSR-JHSS) Volume 20, Issue 2, Ver. V (Feb. 2015), PP 66-72
e-ISSN: 2279-0837, p-ISSN: 2279-0845. www.iosrjournals.org
Comparative Visual Analysis of Symbolic and Illegible Indus Valley Script with Other Languages

Mrs. Maria Ansari1, Mr. Farjad Faiz2, Ms. Amna Ansari3
1,2, University College of Art and Design, The Islamia University Bahawalpur, Pakistan 3.College of Art and Design, Punjab University Lahore, Pakistan

http://iosrjournals.org/iosr-jhss/papers/Vol20-issue2/Version-5/K020256672.pdf


Dravidian costumes and household articles
Dr.A.Sagayadoss,
Director Council of Agri Geo Environmental Research Bengaluru

http://www.academiaandsocietyjournal.com/uploads/3/8/8/5/38850075/1.__dravidian_costumes_and_household_articles.pdf


Apparently there is support for Clyde's theory.

One is written by an Lecturer at the University College of Art and Design, (M.A.) The Islamia University Bahawalpur in Pakistan.
She mentions Clyde's "deciperment"
Another article is by
Dr.A.Sagayadoss,Independent Researcher with a Ph.D in Industrial waste water treatments

The other is a 1932 article , I haven't read called
"Dravidian and Nubian" by an Edwin H Tuttle
he also wrote
" Finnic and Dravidian" in 1911 and
"Turkish and Dravidian" in 1912

Appaently these Dravidians were all over the place


Clyde's gone mainstream

1) You asked to look up peer reviewed sources, which mentioned Dravidians and Nubian (C) in the same article, which I did.

2) I didn't say that I agree. Or actually believe that Dravidians were all over the place.

3) I do not know enough about the Dravidians. Who they are and where they came from. In fact I don't know a thing about them.

quote:
Is all content on JSTOR peer reviewed?

While nearly all of the journals collected in JSTOR are peer-reviewed publications, our archives do contain some specific primary materials (like some journals in the Ireland Collection and the 19th Century British Pamphlet Collection). Also, some journal content is much older than today's standard peer-review process. This means that, though all the information in JSTOR is held to a scholarly standard, not all of the publications are technically "peer-reviewed." At the current time there is no way to search JSTOR for only peer-reviewed publications. We often find that if you have questions concerning the academic legitimacy of a particular journal or book, your institution's librarian or your course instructor may be best able to answer those inquiries.

http://es.about.jstor.org/jstor-help-support/395974/395978/395999/


quote:
IOSR Journal of Humanities and Social Science is a double blind peer reviewed International Journal edited by International Organization of Scientific Research (IOSR).The Journal provides a common forum where all aspects of humanities and social sciences are presented. IOSR-JHSS publishes original papers, review papers, conceptual framework, analytical and simulation models, case studies, empirical research, technical notes etc.
http://iosrjournals.org/iosr-jhss.html


quote:
The Journal of Dialogue Studies is a multidisciplinary, peer-reviewed academic journal published twice a year.
http://www.dialoguesociety.org/publications/academia/829-journal-of-dialogue-studies.html


quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

My original question: "Try to find one peer review article that is not written by Clyde Winters that even mentions Dravidians and Nubian C group in the same article."

The second paper is an open (not reviewed ) access paper. The last paper is uploaded by the author to Academia.edu, and not reviewed or published in a journal.

The first article 1932 was published before Clyde was born. I did not want to spend money to see if the C-group was the Nubian connection.

It becomes confusing when you reply under both accounts. Quetzalcoatl and your troll account.
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quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:
The M1 reference is your own. It is not in the papers cited. See below for recurrent mutations.

How can it be my own reference, when I cited Clyde Winters on this and asked you your opinion on it. While you responded with you other troll account.."

I looked up the references myself:


--Fucharoen, et al .

“Mitochondrial DNA polymorphisms in Thailand,” J Hum Genet 46:115–125

http://download.bioon.com.cn/upload/20110610/2011061071.pdf


-- Yao et a.

Phylogeographic Differentiation of Mitochondrial DNA in Han Chinese


Am J Hum Genet. 2002 Mar; 70(3): 635–651.
Published online 2002 Feb 8. doi: 10.1086/338999

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC384943/


quote:
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:


The difficulty here , and one that mystifies Clyde, are "recurrent
mutations." Apparently some sites are more prone to mutations than others and thus can show up in different haplotypes. Thus it is important in determining a classification that all the identifying mutated SNPs be present. These are old papers by standards of the field--

I keep emphasizing that you need to check phylotree for changes that may have happened in the interval. M1 is defined by: T195C! G6446A T6680C C12403T A12950c G16129A! T16189C! T16249C T16311C!

Yao, Y-G, et al 2002 “Phylogeographic Differentiation of Mitochondrial DNA in Han Chinese,” Am. J. Human Genetics 70:635-651

polymorphisms 16129 and 16249 were not found

I agree, these are old papers.

So these "recurrent mutations" (16129, 16223 and 16311) have never been found in Africa?


mtDNA Haplogroup Specific Control Region Mutation Motifs

http://mtmanager.yonsei.ac.kr/help/MutationMotifs.pdf


C16223T
T16311C

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21042748


Apparently Clyde has more papers out, which have been recognized by NCBI.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Winters%20C%5Bauth%5D

Sorry. Sometimes when the posts say "quote" too many times it is not clear to whom you are responding.my answer was meant for Clyde.

Of course 16129, 16223, 163211 are found in Africa! They are the defining SNP's for M1 an African haplotype.

Being listed in the NCI is not any kind of official recognition. If one is interested in what the quality of a particular journal, the place to look is the listing of impact factor of journals
http://www.citefactor.org/journal-impact-factor-list-2014_I.html

The only journal I found in which Winters published original articles (not comments or letters which as I have shown are not reviewed) was the International Journal of Human genetics. This journal asked the author to send in the names of 3 proposed reviewers (in most peer reviewed journals editors choose the reviewers). Its impact factor is.0155

Journal impact factor
Int. J Hum. genetics 0.155
PlOs ONE 4.411
BSC genetics 2.439
BSC genomics 3.716
Am. J Human genetics 10.987
Science 31.027
Nature 42.351

How can this be confusing. When I clearly addressed the question towards you.


http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=010625;p=4#000169


I am glade we have found common ground on M1 which is M.


"Of course 16129, 16223, 163211 are found in Africa! They are the defining SNP's for M1 an African haplotype. "


quote:
"The presence of M haplogroup in Ethiopia, named M1, led to the proposal that haplogroup M originated in eastern Africa, approximately 60,000 years ago, and was carried towards Asia [34].

Macrohaplogroup M is ubiquitous in India and covers more than 70 per cent of the Indian mtDNA lineages [28], [36]–[38]. Recent studies on complete mtDNA sequences (~187) tried to resolve the phylogeny of Indian macrohaplogroup M. As a result, M2, M3, M4, M5, M6 [28], [36], [39]–[40], M18, M25 [38], M30, [41], M31 [42], [24] M33, M34, M35, M36, M37, M38, M39, M40 [22], M41, M42 [43], M43 [23], [44], M45 [45], M48, M49, and M50 [46] haplogroups of M that was identified in India helped to a certain extent in understanding M genealogy in diversified Indian populations. In the above background, extensive sequencing of complete mtDNA of South Asia, particularly India, is essential for better understanding of the peopling of the non-African continents, and pathogenesis of diseases in various ethnic groups with different matrilineal backgrounds."

--Adimoolam Chandrasekar et al. 2009

Updating Phylogeny of Mitochondrial DNA Macrohaplogroup M in India: Dispersal of Modern Human in South Asian Corridor

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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
[]It becomes confusing when you reply under both accounts. Quetzalcoatl and your troll account.

What in the world are you talking about? What troll account?
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Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:


An 8 year-old example of Winters misquoting papers.

quote:
[Winters]
posted 21 February, 2008 03:07 PM
[QUOTE]quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
mtDNA research supports an African influence in Near Oceania. For example researchers have found that the Tanzanian M1 haplogroup cluster with people from Oceania (Gonder et al, 2006).


In addition, the M1 mutations 16129,16189,16249 and 16311 are found in many southeast and East Asian haplogroups (Fucharoen et al, 2001; Yao et al, 2002).

This molecular evidence further supports the Neolithic skeletal evidence of a recent migration of Africans to the Pacific and east Asian region after the initial exit from Africa of AMH.

]

[Ortiz de Montellano]

As usual an incomplete, therefore misleading, quote. This is the complete quote and it does not support Clyde's argument:

Gonder, M. K., et al. 2007 “Whole-mtDNA Genome Sequence Analysis of Ancient African Lineages,” [bb]Mol. Biol. Evol. [/b]24(3):757–768. 2007

quote:

Finally, our limited genetic data from Tanzanians belonging to haplogroups M1, N1, and J suggest 2 alternatives that are not mutually exclusive. Populations in Tanzania may have been important in the migration of modern humans from Africa to other regions, as noted in previous studies of other populations in eastern Africa (Quintana- Murci et al. 1999). For example, mtDNAs of Tanzanians belonging to haplogroup M1 cluster with peoples from Oceania, whereas Tanzanian mtDNAs belonging to haplogroup N1 and J cluster with peoples of Middle Eastern and Eurasian origin. However, the presence of haplogroups N1 and J in Tanzania suggest ‘‘back’’ migration from the Middle East or Eurasia into eastern Africa, which has been inferred from previous studies of other populations in eastern Africa (Kivisild et al. 2004). These results are intriguing and suggest that the role of Tanzanians in the migration of modern humans within and out of Africa should be analyzed in greater detail after more extensive data collection, particularly from analysis of Y-, X-, and autosomal chromosome markers. Our analyses of African mtDNAs suggest populations in eastern Africa have played an important and persistent role in the origin and diversification of modern humans.

[Rasol]

quote:
Meaning: Tanzana has M1, N1 and J haplotypes. M, *NOT* M1 is found in Oceana. N and J [including but not limited to N1] is found South West Asia and Europe.
Nowhere is anything said about M1 found in Oceana.

[Ortiz de Montellano]

quote:
Not only is Rasol correct, but Gonder et al, as you can see from the title of the paper, " “Whole mtDNA Genome Sequence Analysis of Ancient African Lineages" is not dealing with recent gene flow from Africa but rather with the initial Out of Africa expansion of mode humans
.

Gonder, M. K., et al. 2007 “Whole-mtDNA Genome Sequence Analysis of Ancient African Lineages,” Mol. Biol. Evol. 24(3):757–768. 2007

quote:
mtDNAs belonging to haplogroups M and N form 2 monophyletic clades (fig. 2A). These 2 M and N haplogroup clades included a few Tanzanians (belonging to haplogroups M1, M, N1, and J), suggesting possible recent gene flow back into Africa and/or that ancestors of the Tanzanian populations may have been a source of migration of modern humans from Africa to other regions (fig. 2B). Or from Gonder's phylogenetic tree, the date of the last common African and non-African haplotypes

The age of the youngest node containing both African and non-African sequences (node S) is 94.3 6 9.9 kya and represents an upper bound time estimate for an exodus out of Africa. isolated quotes are meaningless unless they are set in context with the entire paper.

subsequently I wrote to Dr. Gonder to verify my interpretation of her paper and Winters’s error

quote:
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 09:34:07 -0400
Subject: Re: supplementary material
From: Katy Gonder mgonder@umd.edu
To: Bernard Ortiz de Montellano <bortiz@earthlink.net>
Thread-Topic: supplementary material

Hi,

You are correct, we were referring to the initial migration of out of Africa. Cluster together....I haven’t looked at the tree in detail for some time, but as I remember, the TZ M formed part of the “basal” lineages containing both African and non-African mtDNA genomes. Many of the non-African genomes were of oceanic origin. [/b] We were definitely not referring to anything that happened with the last few thousand years.[/b]

Hope that helps.

Katy


On 3/16/08 11:20 PM, "Bernard Ortiz de Montellano" <bortiz@earthlink.net> wrote:

Hi

Thank you so much for sending me the supplementary information for your paper. I have no idea why Molecular Evolution and Biology made it impossible to download. Unfortunately, they do not answer my basic question. Clyde Winters has been quoting your paper in support of his theory that the Mande migrated out of Africa a few thousand years ago ,i.e. in - BioEssays 29:497-498, 2007, Winters writes that your paper supports his claims that Mande speakers migrated from Africa to become the Dravidians of India. Quote: "Anna Oliviera et al. argue that M1 must have originated in West Asia, because none of the Asian M haplogroups harbor any distinguishing East African root mutations. (30) They claim that the presence of any East African M1 root mutations in Asian-specific clades suggest a recent arrival of M1; and that the absence of M1 root mutations among Eurasian sister clades indicate a back migration into East Africa of HG M1. (30)”
[Winters] Oliviera et al. claim that East African M1 root mutations are absent in Eurasian M sister clades is not supported by the evidence. (36) For example, Gondar [sic] et al. make it clear that the Tanzanian M1 haplogroup cluster with people from Oceania. In addition, Roychoudhury et al. noted nucleolides shared by East African M1, and Indian M haplogroups include HG M4 at 16311; HG M5 at 16,129; and HG M34 at 16,249."

Winters is referring to the following passage in your paper:
quote:

"Populations in Tanzania may have been important in the migration of modern humans from Africa to other regions, as noted in previous studies of other populations in eastern Africa (Quintana- Murci et al. 1999). For example, mtDNAs of Tanzanians belonging to haplogroup M1 cluster with peoples from Oceania, whereas Tanzanian mtDNAs belonging to haplogroup N1 and J cluster with peoples of Middle Eastern and Eurasian origin. However, the presence of haplogroups N1 and J in Tanzania suggest ''back'' migration from the Middle East or Eurasia into eastern Africa, which has been inferred from previous studies of other populations in eastern Africa (Kivisild et al. 2004). These results are intriguing and suggest that the role of Tanzanians in the migration of modern humans within and out of Africa should be analyzed in greater detail after more extensive data collection, particularly from analysis of Y-, X-, and autosomal chromosome markers. Our analyses of African mtDNAs suggest populations in eastern Africa have played an important and persistent role in the origin and diversification of modern humans.

[Ortiz de Montellano]

I think that when you speak of Tanzanian M1 "clustering" with Oceania etc. the reference is to the initial Out of Africa migration not to fairly recent events. Is this correct? What exactly did you mean by "cluster together"

thank you so much for any help you can provide.

Bernard Ortiz de Montellano
Emeritus, Professor of Anthropology
Wayne State University

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