quote:Originally posted by the questioner: kdolo who is that on the coin? Delphus?
Yes. This crowd is oblivious, wilfully ignorant or pplagiarizing works as old as Rogers' 1952 Sex & Race pp. 81 & 292 with 16 Greek coins 3 of Helios 6 of Delphos 2 of Athena 5 random broad featured nappy hair individuals.
I leave it to some astute ES researcher to post or link the pages via GoogleBooks. The device I'm using won't let me.
BTW sorry to mar your original post, ain't up to speed yet on this device OK I effed up so what's new...
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Greek colonisation of South Italy and Sicily (Magna Graecia) was a defining event in European cultural history, although the demographic processes and genetic impacts involved have not been systematically investigated. Here, we combine high-resolution surveys of the variability at the uni-parentally inherited Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA in selected samples of putative source and recipient populations with forward-in-time simulations of alternative demographic models to detect signatures of that impact. Using a subset of haplotypes chosen to represent historical sources, we recover a clear signature of Greek ancestry in East Sicily compatible with the settlement from Euboea during the Archaic Period (eighth to fifth century BCE). We inferred moderate sex-bias in the numbers of individuals involved in the colonisation: a few thousand breeding men and a few hundred breeding women were the estimated number of migrants. Last, we demonstrate that studies aimed at quantifying Hellenic genetic flow by the proportion of specific lineages surviving in present-day populations may be misleading.European Journal of Human Genetics advance online publication, 15 July 2015; doi:10.1038/ejhg.2015.124.
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Archaeologists have long known of Greek colonization of Magna Graecia, the name given to the coastal areas of Southern Italy and Sicily, thanks to artifacts and historical records. Somewhere around the 8th century BC, Greeks came in droves to settle Magna Graecia, bringing with them traces of a civilization that heavily influenced ancient Rome. While the cultural contribution of these Greeks to southern Italy is clear, researchers have argued for years about their biological contribution. New DNA research, though, purports to have solved the mystery: an influx of a few thousand men and a few hundred women in the Archaic period may have been enough to effect Hellenic colonization of Magna Graecia.
Writing in the European Journal of Human Genetics this week, an international team of scientists laid out their case for the origins of people in Magna Graecia. The hypotheses about colonization in this area are drawn from archaeological, historical, and demographic data, but they hardly agree. Lead author Sergio Tofanelli and colleagues explain that there are “scenarios ranging from a colonization process based on small groups of males moderately admixing with autochthonous [indigenous] groups… to substantial migrations from Greece and a Hellenic origin for a significant part of the pre-Roman Italian population.”
Ancient Greek colonies in Magna Graecia and their dialect groupings. (Image in the public domain, via wikimedia commons.)
Previous DNA analyses have been interpreted to bolster various hypotheses as well. Tofanelli and colleagues find fault with these studies of Greek colonization primarily because those studies used specific lineages or haplotypes as markers of colonization, and these contemporary genomes may not accurately reflect the genes that were present in ancient populations. To counter this, Tofanelli and colleagues used both Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA analysis and created demographic models to simulate genetic change over time. In particular, they looked for robust gene signatures for Greek contributions to Italy and Sicily, they tested alternative models, and they looked at the relative contributions of males versus females to find out more about the colonizing population.
Over 800 people native to the areas of Euboea and Corinth, where archaeologists and historians think the first wave of colonizers came from, along with people whose families were native to Sicily and southern Italy, had their DNA sequenced. When the researchers analyzed the Y chromosome data and modeled the typical mutation rate over the centuries, they “recovered a signature of the Greek Contribution to Sicily during the Archaic Period” or between the 8th and 5th centuries BC. More specifically, this wave of colonists likely arrived in East Sicily first and then dispersed into West Sicily and South Italy. “Despite the multiple alternative explanations for historical gene flow,” they write, “it is relevant to stress here that a signature specifically related to the Euboea island in East Sicily was consistently found at different levels of analysis, in line with the historical and archaeological evidence, attesting to an extended and numerically important Greek presence in this region.”
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AGRIGENTO, ITALY – OCTOBER 20: A general view of Temple of Hera in the Valle dei Templi Park of Agrigento on October 20, 2013. Agrigento (Akragas in Greek) was a rich Greek colony, founded in western Sicily in the 6th century BC. (Photo by Tullio M. Puglia/Getty Images)
Historians and demographers have also debated just how large the migration population was when they arrived in Magna Graecia. Walter Scheidel, professor of classics and ancient history at Stanford University, has estimated from a demographic perspective that the founding population was likely around 20,000 to 60,000 males. But if Tofanelli and colleagues’ supposition that East Sicily was colonized first is correct, this “points to the lower end of the size spectrum proposed by historical demographers, with values in the order of thousands [of] breeding men and [a] few hundred breeding women,” they write.
“A settler population of 5,000 males, mating with local women, would have had to grow by more than 1% per year for several centuries,” Scheidel says in response to Tofanelli and colleagues’ conclusions. This is substantial and out of character for the ancient world, particularly considering the ancient Greeks were not polygamous. “Maybe growth rates were higher than we think,” Scheidel suggests, “but their settler numbers seem very small. This would translate to just a few dozen ships full of Greeks, over a considerable period of time, which is problematic. It’s hard for me to see how a few thousand settlers could have produced the large Greek population we see in Sicily a few centuries later.”
5th century BC Greek coins from Tarentum, an ancient Greek colony in the Magna Graecia area of Italy. (Image from the Classical Numismatic Group, used under a CC-BY-SA 3.0 unported license via wikimedia commons.)
The lopsided population that Tofanelli and colleagues reconstruct could also mean that “the migration and settlement process was driven by males,” which is interesting because “this is one of the few cases of sex-biased gene flow skewed towards an increased male instead of female contribution,” the authors conclude. However, the different male and female contributions to the DNA of East Sicilians could instead be related to patrilocality, or the cultural phenomenon where men stay near their birthplace while women leave the group to find spouses elsewhere.
This study is the first to use a full set of haplotypes and therefore provides better coverage of possible DNA links than previous studies. The authors caution, though, against accepting this study at face value, because more DNA studies would be needed to develop stronger conclusions about ancestry. As a study of modern DNA, this paper provides a strong research design, but testing ancient DNA would be even more helpful. Whether or not skeletal collections exist and whether or not those Archaic-period bones would produce collagen of high enough quality to be DNA sequenced, however, are questions that still need to be answered. Tofanelli and colleagues have credibly shown that modern DNA evidence backs up historical and archaeological information about the Greek colonization of Magna Graecia. Ancient DNA work may settle the question once and for all.
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Kristina Killgrove is a bioarchaeologist at the University of West Florida. For more osteology news, follow her on Twitter (@DrKillgrove) or like her Facebook page Powered by Osteons.
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Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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I've already answered that question, yes I am White why would I lie about that?
Posts: 3257 | From: Madisonville, KY USA | Registered: Nov 2011
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quote:Originally posted by the questioner: the lioness Nicole Kidman could be mixed with black far back in her family history
i say yes Britian had quite a few of black slaves brought their via the slave trade
her and all of the other pictures you posted look like typical octoroons
You have no proof that a light skinned person who has curly hair is the product of a darker skinned person mixing with a light skinned person somewhere in their background.
It is simply something you made up and is based on the idea that human beings came into existence from separate origins and variance is all due to mixiing of each of these separate types
Instead of the reality, where some mixing has occured but most of these varaitions are due to gradual evolutionary transitions or recessive trait genetics
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Blacks were already in Britain by Roman times, and earlier. Blacks in Britain were not all African slaves.
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi 27 February 2010: A similar article was written up some yrs back
First Genetic Evidence Of Long-Lived African Presence Within Britain
The researchers, led by Professor Mark Jobling, of the Department of Genetics at the University of Leicester, first spotted the rare Y chromosome type, known as hgA1, in one individual, Mr. X. This happened whilst PhD student Ms. Turi King was sampling a larger group in a study to explore the association between surnames and the Y chromosome, both inherited from father to son. Mr. X, a white Caucasian living in Leicester, was unaware of having any African ancestors.
"As you can imagine, we were pretty amazed to find this result in someone unaware of having any African roots," explains Professor Jobling, a Wellcome Trust Senior Research Fellow. "The Y chromosome is passed down from father to son, so this suggested that Mr. X must have had African ancestry somewhere down the line. Our study suggests that this must have happened some time ago."
Although most of Britain's one million people who define themselves as "Black or Black British" owe their origins to immigration from the Caribbean and Africa from the mid-twentieth century onwards, in reality, there has been a long history of contact with Africa. Africans were first recorded in the north 1800 years ago, as Roman soldiers defending Hadrian's Wall. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/01/070124072328.htm
quote:Are you man enough to tell your colleague that that is an inaccurate statement and that he needs to retract or revise it? I bet you the answer to that is NO. Why? Because people like you are not about honest scholarship. People like you i.e. Afrocentrists, have a racial-political agenda. This is not about academics for you. This is about a struggle, a cause and, by any means necessary, to see it all the way through until you have gained the victory. Fvck you! I dont have respect for dishonest people.
Some more stuff from the rich lady's grave
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by the questioner: the lioness neither can you disprove it show me one curly haired white people who do not belong to haplogroup E
it is no accident that vast majority of curly haired whites live close to Africa (Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece etc)
100,000s of Black people have migrated to Spain and England from Africa and the Caribbean and has not changed the genetic profile of whites in Great Britain.
posted
kdolo did not Britain have blacks during the 15th to 18th century
and is it not true that race mixing went on in britain? for example Olaudah Equiano married a white women and had mixed race kids who in turn married white and had even further mixed kids this is just one example
Posts: 861 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2015
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posted
the lioness im still waiting for you to show me one ethnic group in Europe who have curly hair and do not belong to haplogroup E
this is my proof
(and is it not true that race mixing went on in britain? for example)
is what i meant the reason why i asked the question is because he made it seem like it was impossible for race mixing to happen in britain via africa
Posts: 861 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2015
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by the questioner:
If you ask questions about who was European or who was African there can be a certian amount of resolution
But if you ask if people are "black" or "white" since people have widely varying defintions of what those terms mean there is no resolution
So you can first say what definition or "black" or "white" you are using
However before you even get to a given popualtion you wnat to discuss people will question your defintion of "black" or "white" and will say those are not scientifc terms and that race doesn't exist. Then you will find Europeans and Americans who do subscribe to the idea of races will have endless differences as to who is included or excluded in each category. ome people will say it's skin color only others will say its more. Those are just some of the issues that will be raised.
So it is a waste of time asking scientific questions about social terms that don't have agreed upon definition
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the questioner: [QB] the lioness im still waiting for you to show me one ethnic group in Europe who have curly hair and do not belong to haplogroup E
If you make a claim with no science rreference then the burden of proof is on you.
If you say the moon is made of swiss cheese. You have to prove it.
You can't say to me "prove that the moon isn't made of swiss cheese" and if I don't then claim you have proved that it is made of swiss cheese. You have to provide evidence for your claims, not ask other people to do the proving for you, by saying "prove what I'm saying is not true"
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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The Ivory Bangle Lady was between 18 and 23 years old when she died, and stood approximately five feet tall. There is no evidence of a cause of death; but she is believed on the basis of skeletal comparisons to have been from North Africa.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the questioner: ive notice that alot of Ancient Greek artifacts portray people with curly hair and dark skin
are the ancient Greeks white like Hollywood portray them? or are they a mongrel race of people mixed with Asian and African
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Why are you showing Sicilians with African admixture, then try to close the thread, supposedly? How come you have no problem with multiple supposed back migrations to Africa (of whcih in most cases there is no evidence lol smh), yet make such a great deal out of recent African migration into Southern Europe. Why is it so important to you to show Europeans as "pure" and more diverse as Africans? I like to know what's up with that.
This question has been addressed many times by several people already, however it has been responded at by you. All you do is keep on rambling.
I don't give a damn about purity.
the questioner didn't mention Southern Europeans or African migration there, that's all you.
His proposal is that the ancient Greeks were not European
and he uses this old school racist terminology " a mongrel race" and doesn't even realize it [/QB]
From where did the ancient Greeks come?
Every person in Africa with some looser hair is mixed with eurasians (caucasoids) who mysteriously traveled back to African dozens of times. Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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The Ivory Bangle Lady was between 18 and 23 years old when she died, and stood approximately five feet tall. There is no evidence of a cause of death; but she is believed on the basis of skeletal comparisons to have been from North Africa.
In case you haven't noticed, the lioness is a white supremacist. At all cost white people are pure and most diverse. It has been the same routine frm the beginning. Every African with loose hair and not stereotypical is supposed a mix with eurasians, no proof needs to be given. Every europan/ eurasian/ caucasoid looking different from the norm is white diversity. This is by any means. lol
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: In case you haven't noticed, the lioness is a white supremacist. At all cost white people are pure and most diverse. It has been the same routine frm the beginning. Every African with loose hair and not stereotypical is supposed a mix with eurasians, no proof needs to be given. Every europan/ eurasian/ caucasoid looking different from the norm is white diversity. This is by any means. lol
. .
Like most claims of the Albinos, it's akin to "slight of hand" using truths of Blacks.
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: the lioness im still waiting for you to show me one ethnic group in Europe who have curly hair and do not belong to haplogroup E
i rest my case about curly hair
now back to ancient greeks
The DNA of the Khosians is predominantly haplogroup A, haplgropup B and maternally L0d.
These haplogroups are older than E
Any Hg E you find in Khosians is likely due to admixture with bantus
They have the tightest curled hair on the planet
As Africans left Africa they evolved into different types. So in the transistion you might have looser curled types, such as the Jews as you mentioned, some with their Jew-fros
So this is not regarded as "mixed" as if they have two different founder parents at some point of different "races"
The people of Oceania, the Andaman Islanders near India, Negritos in the Philipines are not E carriers but many of them look African and many of them have afro type hair or some near variant of it, curls They are not African. They have been out of Africa for 60,000 years and can be distingushed from Africans by genetics.
You shouldn't make an assumption like any European who has curly hair has ancestors who were haplogoup E carriers because you have no evidence to support that,
there are specific genes that cause curly hair and little is known about them
The only thing reaosnable to ask is
"Do any European males have curly hair but do not belong to Haplogroup E ?"
Instead of assuming something before investigating.
There are other forums where people could answer that quickly but I don't have the resources to, so at this point I can't answer that
These other forums are not Egyptsearch but I will post this question as a new thread in Egyptology and see if anybody can answer
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the questioner: ive notice that alot of Ancient Greek artifacts portray people with curly hair and dark skin
are the ancient Greeks white like Hollywood portray them? or are they a mongrel race of people mixed with Asian and African
If typical European/American racial social constructs are used, the Greeks are mixed race people. Many have a double standard in this area. If some Eurasian DNA appears somewhere in Africa, they pronounce the Africans to be "mixed." But if African DNA shows up in Europe they are quick to change the subject, or downplay the very same application of their "Mixed race" model. This double standard is alive and well and does not seem to be vanishing anytime soon.
Here is a repost from an old ES thread: Again note- NO ONE is saying Greeks are not European, or that things like HLA are the ONLY line of evidence connecting Africa to Greece. It is only ONE line- there are several others- about 6-7 in fact. Each has strengths and weaknesses. Again the issue is Greek connections with Africa not if "the Greeks be black." That is a strawman some put out as a diversionary tactic to downplay any connections between Greeks and Africans. Get people "debating" the strawman and much relevant info can be conveniently dismissed or ignored. Its a deliberate tactic. Also note below diversionary tactics trying to tie in any discussion with Jew-Palestinian debates. These are irrelevant. There are several other related threads on ES. Check them out for more details. Below is only one. http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=15;t=002474
Modern Greeks would not have the IDENTICAL mix as ancient Greeks. Other studies do not show identical results to HLA gene data. There are differences, but the main idea is to show that there is some relatedness between Greeks and Africans. WHy then aren't many running around talking about Greeks being "mixed"? This double standard is a central point. -------------------------------------------------
1-- Distribution of African Haplogroup E in Europe appears in several Greek or southern European populations
2-- Certain Greek samples using HLA gene data cluster with Africans. This pattern does not mean all Greeks are identical to Africans or "come from Africa." The data is in: HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks Tissue Antigens 2001: 57: 118–127
Villena attracted controversy because various data on Greeks-Macedonians- Africans seemed to genetically link Jews and Palestinians more closely than seemed politic. This info was withdrawn for political reasons, and offended sensibilities of various Jewish and other groups. Some use this to claim that the Greek data above was "withdrawn." False. It is alive and well and appears specifically in Vilenna's Greek study: HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks Tissue Antigens 2001: 57: 118–127 Jewish - Palestinian controversies have nothing to do with it, and are a separate dispute.
Bear in mind that while HLA has its limitations it is used by other scholars in DNA affinity studies. Johansson et 2008 (Genetic origin of the Swedish Sami inferred from HLA class I and class II allele frequencies) for example use HLA to determine the origin of some Scandanavian ethnic groups. HLA is a valid study approach. Can contrary DNA approaches be cited? Sure. But using AN HLA APPROACH, the data is what it is. Also HLA is not the only line of evidence linking the peoples. Also it is not the only line of evidence linking the peoples.
3-- The Palestinian study also notes that Greeks are related to Africans via cystic fibrosis mutations. Note we are talking Greeks and Africans.
4-- It is true that the data being used is highly variable HLA genes. However the presence of Japanese clustering with south Africans is not as far fetched as it seems. HLA genes are useful in analyzing certain arthritis conditions. There is hard medical data in various HLA studies that indeed show Japanese and south African blacks grouping together in relation to arthritis conditions. See the data below.
5-- Anthro/Archaeo data show the presence of African traits (and remember Africans have a wide variety of traits) in the Neolithic data. The full info has already been posted but here is some anthro/archaeo data affirming the presence of "negroid" traits from early times: quote: "The female of forty-plus years of age from Grave 2 was examined by J. L. Angel who noted what he interpreted as a number of 'negroid' .. traits in the face." The skull is fairly complete, but not enough so for discriminant function analysis." There is marked maxillary prognathism and the orbits may be described as rectangular, traits frequently used in forensic diagnosis of Negro crania... " -- Skeletons of Lerna Hollow. Al B. Wesolowsky. Hesperia, Vol. 42, No. 3. (Jul. - Sep., 1973), pp. 340-351.
"Early Neolithic Macedonia centered on a Dinaric-Mediterranean (type F) average but with an extremely broad nose, more prognathism, and a little more mouth tilt than expected (all, perhaps from negroid development of the incisor region.." -- The people of Lerna: analysis of a prehistoric Aegean population. J.L Angel 1971
"The portrayal on the 'minature fresco' from Thera, and on the other, very fragmentary Aegean frescoes, of diverse stylistic elements- flora a nd fauna, 'negroid' human representations, the riverine setting, of the 'minature fresco,' etc- that seem to be north African, 'Libyan' or Egyptian in origin." --The Aegean and the Orient in the second millennium: proceedings of the 50th anniversary symposium, Cincinnati, 18-20 April 1997
"The inhabitants of the Aegean area in the Bronze Age may have been much like many people in the Mediterranean basin today, short and slight of build with dark hair and eyes and sallow complexions. Skeletons show that the population of the Aegean was already mixed by Neolithic times, and various facial types, some with delicate features and pointed noses, others pug-nosed, almost negroid, are depicted in wall paintings from the 16th century BC..." -- The Home of the Heroes: The Aegean Before the Greeks (1967)
------------------ Scholars also link the Negroid elements to sickle-cell anemia------- QUOTE: "The female from Grave 2 is among those with thickened parietals. It should be pointed out that maxillary prognathsm, one of the skeleton's "Negroid" features, is characteristic both of thalassemia and sickle-cell anemia." -- Skeletons of Lerna Hollow. Al B. Wesolowsky. Hesperia, Vol. 42, No. 3. (Jul. - Sep., 1973), pp. 340-351.
6-- Other elements like Benin Sickle Cell traits are also found among the Greeks and various Africans and some skeletal/cranial studies find African elements in Greece (Angel 1972 for example) QUOTE:
"A late Pleistocene-early Holocene northward migration (from Africa to the Levant and to Anatolia) of these populations has been hypothesized from skeletal data (Angel 1972, 1973; Brace 2005) and from archaeological data, as indicated by the probable Nile Valley origin of the "Mesolithic" (epi-Paleolithic) Mushabi culture found in the Levant (Bar Yosef 1987). This migration finds some support in the presence in Mediterranean populations (Sicily, Greece, southern Turkey, etc.; Patrinos et al.; Schiliro et al. 1990) of the Benin sickle cell haplotype. This haplotype originated in West Africa and is probably associated with the spread of malaria to southern Europe through an eastern Mediterranean route (Salares et al. 2004) following the expansion of both human and mosquito populations brought about by the advent of the Neolithic transition (Hume et al 2003; Joy et al. 2003; Rich et al 1998). This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005). In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al 2005), in concordance with a process of demic diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994)."
-- F. X. Ricaut, M. Waelkens. (2008). Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology - Volume 80, Number 5, October 2008, pp. 535-564
7-- Other cultural/archaeo data testify to the African presence, Africans again having a wide range of features
QUOTES "THE FORERUNNERS During the Early Minoan period the population of southern Crete may have included a Negroid element. The presence of such an element from Libya in the Cretan population has been argued on the basis of an inlay of shell now in the Ashmolean Museum. This inlay may have come from an early circular tomb at Ayios Onouphrios. It depects a bearded face, with thick lips and snub nose. Other objects might lead to the same observaton for later periods. Among the faiences showing house fronts (Middle Minoan II)15 there is one in which are seen the prow of a ship and swarthy, prognathous, clearly Negroid people, some steatopygic... It is uncertain, however, what role to assign to the non-Minoan figures in this scene, which it has been suggested, may represent the represent the siege of a seacoast town. Scholars are in greater agreement with respect to their interpretations of the coal black spearmen who appear in a fragment of a fresco, which Evans called The Captain of the Blacks, belonging to Late Minoan 145 II.18 The fresco depicts a Minoan captain, wearing a yellow kilt and a horned cap of skin, who leads, at the double, a file of black men similarly dressed." -- The image of the Black in Western art: Volume 4, Part 1 Jean Vercoutter, Ladislas Bugner, Jean Devisse. 1976
"The Theran is a young man whose black wavy hairm rather thick lips, and nose with reduced platyrrniny are clearly shown. Although he acknowledges that these traits suggest a NEgrito or Nubian, Marinatos avoids precise anthropological definition and concludes that the characteristics seem to indicate an "African".
"An intrepretation of NEgroes in Crete and Pylos as soldiers would have some support in the example of Egypt, with its long tradition of Nubian mercenaries. A striking example, belonging somewhat earlier period that that of the Minoan Captain of the Blacks fresco, is provided by the wooden models of forthy black archers in Cairo, found in a tomb of a prince of Assiut." pg 138
L. Bertholon and E. Chantre have analyzed results of black-white crossings in their detailed anthropoligical study of ancient and modern Tripolitiana, Tunisia, and Algeria. They call attention to the degrees of Negro admixture as evidenced by the extent to which Negroid features appear in mixed North African peoples. R. Bartoccini in his study of the somatic characteristics of anciet Libyans, illustrates his observations on racial crossings between Libyans and Negroes from the interior by pointing to the Negroid nose (broad) and hair (curly or wooly) .."
"Some of the physical features of this type are: dark or black color expressed in a variety of ways, tightly curled platyrrhine nose, and thick, often everted lips. '
"In a scene on a red-figured calyx-krater of the peropd from Canicattoni, now in Syracuse, a female dancer, fully draped, stands on tiptoe. The treatment of the nose, the lips and the tightly curled hair indicates that Negroid features were intended.. the realism and anthropological fidelity of those cited above leave no doubt as to the artists' intent.." pg 171 -- The image of the Black in Western art: Volume 4, Part 1 Jean Vercoutter, Ladislas Bugner, Jean Devisse. 1976
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8.. ADDITIONAL DATA: AFRICAN HAPLOGROUP E FOUND IN GREEKS
QUOTE: "Underhill et al. (2001) showed that the frequency of the YAP+ Y haplogroup commonly referred to as haplogroup E or (III) is relatively high (about 25%) in the Middle East and Mediterranean. This haplogroup E is the major haplogroup found in sub-Saharan Africa (over 75% of all Y chromosomes). SPecifically, Europeans contain the E3b subhaplogroup, which was derived from haplogroup E in sub-Saharan Africa and currently is distributed along the North and East of Africa.. It appears that the 171 AIM test subject of this chapter may recognize the haplogroup E character as West African."
--T. Frudakis. 2006. Molecular photofitting: predicting ancestry and phenotype using DNA Well according to genetic analyses the Greeks are close to 1/4th black carrying 23% African paternal lineages.
Critique of critique of HLA studies. The "critique" made by some is to proffer shaky strawmen made by alleged "Afrocentrists" that can then be "refuted." BUt no credible observer claims that all Greeks are Africans. We all know that Greeks are primarily European, just as Ethiopians are primarily African. The only point at issue is that there is clearly documented gene mix and cultural flow between Greece and Africa from ancient times. HLA studies are ONE link in that documented chain of evidence. And if "mixed race" models are to be deployed to describe African diversity, then their use is likewise justified in describing EUropean diversity as "mixed race." Eurocentrics no longer get' to play the standard hypocritical ONE-WAY labeling game.
VARIOUS OBJECTIONS
The minimization ploy- Cystic fibrosis The cystic fibrosis finding is admitted but minimized with dubious sleight of hand. Objectors and their supporters hold that Dörk et al. did find an African-type of cystic fibrosis mutation in Greeks, however this mutation was extremely rare; it was detected only in three Greek families. WHat they conveniently leave out is that the Greek families were part of a batch of 17 samples under detailed analysis. 3 out of 17 is approx 18%, but they attempt to make it appear as if it is only 3 families out of all of Greece where the cystic fibrosis mutation occurs. See Dork ref. Dörk T, El-Harith EH, Stuhrmann M, et al. (August 1998). "Evidence for a common ethnic origin of cystic fibrosis mutation 3120+1G-->A in diverse populations". Am. J. Hum. Genet. 63
The mysteriously missing African samples to "refute" Objectors and their servitors then tout a 2000 study by Richards that found "very little" African gene flow in Greece, but in fact, Richards's study specifically EXCLUDED African samples. Objectors and their supporters further proffer Maaspina 2000 as another example, saying that the "only African" DNA trace in a Greek sample was hg "A" at less than 1%. The only thing that they conveniently forget to tell the reader is that the African samples were mostly Arabized types from Egypt, not sub-Saharan Africa, crucially East Africa/Ethiopia where an apples to apples comparison could be done.
The non-sequitir "comparison" The Objectors also cite a study by A. Petlichkovski on Macedonians showing where "sub-Saharans" groups away from the Macedonians thus allegedly "contradicting" Vilenna. Again they conveniently leave out that the samples of Petlichkovski were NOT from the same area of Africa as Vilenna's Ethiopians, his main group that clustered with Greeks. The sampling was not an apples to apples comparison. Interestingly enough, Petlichkovski's study groups Egyptians with other African populations.
More "missing" Africans to "refute" The Objectors continue their sleight of hand by proferring another study by Weale 2001, but this study concerned Armenians and had NO African samples. Other claims by the Objectors attempt to use an obscure Siberian haplotype as some sort of "stand in" for Africans but indeed the studies proffered for Greek-African comparisons are notable for the ABSENCE or minor use of African samples.
The nugatory "North African" markers Semino 2004 is used by assorted objectors to argue a Medit Supreme line, alleging that the Greeks show little of the "North African marker" J-M267, essentially setting up a strawman true type to "refute." But in fact Semino's Greek samples showed significant amounts of E-M78, a haplotype itself originating in East Africa per Semino. Objectors usually fail to mention this. J-M267 is important to them however, because the Dork cystic fibrosis study found a link with Saudi populations which have much J-M267. But what Objectors and their supporters conveniently leave out is that other studies of Saudis such as Amero 2008, found almost 14% of the Saudi samples to have sub-Saharan DNA markers, confirming Dork's view of long-standing Africa-Arabia gene flow. Hence it is not merely "North African" J-M267 that could cause a link with the Greek and Africans, but long-standing African markers. The link shows up in people who are African or African influenced like Saudis or African-Americans.
Curious charts The Objectors also proffer a critique by JObling of Vilenna's sub-Saharan tracers, but Jobling did not dispute the presence of such African alleles only how they were used in creating a chart, since their origin was known before the study. But such is standard procedure in other DNA studies run by European race category proponents. Only this time, it showed the Greek- African links rather than the usual "true type" segregation format.
The "three wise men" critique- claim a part is the whole -to "refute" Objectors also refer to criticism of Vilenna by "three respected geneticists" Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Alberto Piazza and Neil Risch. But the three men over no detailed rebuttal of Vilenna's results, only "puzzlement" over how Greeks link with Africans and how Japanese could be in the mix. They express puzzlement on how: "Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans."
But the "three sages" misrepresent Vilenna with a touch of strawmen. Vilenna is not referring to ALL Greeks but part of them, as seen in samples from the Aegean and near Athens. The "all Greeks" charge is bogus, just as the "identical Japanese" is similarly bogus. The three sages conveniently fail to mention that HLA genes, in association with certain rheumatoid arthritis MEDICAL conditions, can show similarity across several distant populations, and thus accounting for why Japanese would share certain arthritis conditions with South African San. Doesn't mean there was historic gene flow between them- this would require some archaeological evidence as well- which Greeks and Africans do have present. The similarity only shows that the gene mutations involved in the particular rheumatoid arthritis conditions may hit both peoples in a similar way. ( Rimoin and Emery 2006 Principles and practice of medical genetics).
HLA limitations
While HLA has its limitations it is used by other scholars in DNA affinity studies. Johansson et 2008 (Genetic origin of the Swedish Sami inferred from HLA class I and class II allele frequencies) for example use HLA to determine the origin of some Scandanavian ethnic groups. HLA is a valid study approach. Can contrary DNA approaches be cited? Sure. But using AN HLA APPROACH, the data is what it is. Also HLA is not the only line of evidence linking the peoples. Also it is not the only line of evidence linking the peoples. -----------------------------------------------------------------------
The above does not mean that there are no weaknesses in using HLA to study populations, but neither does it mean that HLA cannot be used as one of SEVERAL lines of confirmatory cross evidence on the issue of links between Africa and Greece.
THE DOUBLE STANDARD: Gene frequencies are sometimes touted as "racial" markers- i.e. high frequencies of certain genes in "Eurasian" areas enables the population to be labeled as "Eurasian." But the same method is, curiously, too often, suddenly not applied when African gene data is involved. Hence high frequencies of certain genes in Africa do not earn them the "African" label when there are overlaps into Europe and the so-called "Middle East". Many who speak expansively of "mixed races" in Africa suddenly maintain a mysterious silence when the concept is extended into Europe. Suddenly numerous sub-divisions, obfuscations and "qualifications" enter the labeling picture - the standard modus operandi of Euro-centric hypocrisy and double standards.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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^^If European racial constructs are consistently applied ACROSS THE BOARD, then conservative scholars show that Europeans are racial hybrids, one-third African, two-thirds Asian.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by the questioner: the lioness im still waiting for you to show me one ethnic group in Europe who have curly hair and do not belong to haplogroup E
i rest my case about curly hair
now back to ancient greeks
The DNA of the Khosians is predominantly haplogroup A, haplgropup B and maternally L0d.
These haplogroups are older than E
Any Hg E you find in Khosians is likely due to admixture with bantus
They have the tightest curled hair on the planet
As Africans left Africa they evolved into different types. So in the transistion you might have looser curled types, such as the Jews as you mentioned, some with their Jew-fros
So this is not regarded as "mixed" as if they have two different founder parents at some point of different "races"
The people of Oceania, the Andaman Islanders near India, Negritos in the Philipines are not E carriers but many of them look African and many of them have afro type hair or some near variant of it, curls They are not African. They have been out of Africa for 60,000 years and can be distingushed from Africans by genetics.
You shouldn't make an assumption like any European who has curly hair has ancestors who were haplogoup E carriers because you have no evidence to support that,
there are specific genes that cause curly hair and little is known about them
The only thing reaosnable to ask is
"Do any European males have curly hair but do not belong to Haplogroup E ?"
Instead of assuming something before investigating.
There are other forums where people could answer that quickly but I don't have the resources to, so at this point I can't answer that
These other forums are not Egyptsearch but I will post this question as a new thread in Egyptology and see if anybody can answer
As I said this is a person who will spend an amazing amount of time to push and iterate a Eurocentric agenda.
We know for a fact the Khoisan are oldest people to populate the world. But this racist euronut will dismiss it at any cost. This is typical Eurocentric behavior, you'll find all over the net. The irony is in it that this person hardly understands the complexity of genetics. As soon as we speak of mutations and drifts this person gets upset.
"The deepest branching separates A1b from a monophyletic clade whose members (A1a, A2, A3, B, C, and R) all share seven mutually reinforcing derived mutations (five transitions and two transversions, all at non-CpG sites)."
"Instead of assuming something before investigating."
This comes off as someone mentally ill. With all those magical unsupported and supposed back migrations to Africa.
Btw, lol @ the below.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
^^If European racial constructs are consistently applied ACROSS THE BOARD, then conservative scholars show that Europeans are racial hybrids, one-third African, two-thirds Asian.
So Europeans are 1/3 African
But Asians are not African at all
Just saying, not judging
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
^^If European racial constructs are consistently applied ACROSS THE BOARD, then conservative scholars show that Europeans are racial hybrids, one-third African, two-thirds Asian.
So Europeans are 1/3 African
But Asians are not African at all
Just saying, not judging
SMH Zarahan this one all yours, guillotine move. DE* YAP.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: stop Trolling, thanks
Stop your modernday racist euronut concepts. Aka "scientific" trolling. Thanks.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote: The regional distribution of an ancient Y-chromosome haplogroup C-M130 (Hg C) in Asia provides an ideal tool of dissecting prehistoric migration events. We identified 465 Hg C individuals out of 4284 males from 140 East and Southeast Asian populations. We genotyped these Hg C individuals using 12 Y-chromosome biallelic markers and 8 commonly used Y-short tandem repeats (Y-STRs), and performed phylogeographic analysis in combination with the published data. The results show that most of the Hg C subhaplogroups have distinct geographical distribution and have undergone long-time isolation, although Hg C individuals are distributed widely across Eurasia. Furthermore, a general south-to-north and east-to-west cline of Y-STR diversity is observed with the highest diversity in Southeast Asia. The phylogeographic distribution pattern of Hg C supports a single coastal 'Out-of-Africa' route by way of the Indian subcontinent, which eventually led to the early settlement of modern humans in mainland Southeast Asia. The northward expansion of Hg C in East Asia started approximately 40 thousand of years ago (KYA) along the coastline of mainland China and reached Siberia approximately 15 KYA and finally made its way to the Americas.
--Zhong H1, Shi H, Qi XB, Xiao CJ, Jin L, Ma RZ, Su B.
Global distribution of Y-chromosome haplogroup C reveals the prehistoric migration routes of African exodus and early settlement in East Asia.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: In case you haven't noticed, the lioness is a white supremacist. At all cost white people are pure and most diverse. It has been the same routine frm the beginning. Every African with loose hair and not stereotypical is supposed a mix with eurasians, no proof needs to be given. Every europan/ eurasian/ caucasoid looking different from the norm is white diversity. This is by any means. lol
. .
Like most claims of the Albinos, it's akin to "slight of hand" using truths of Blacks.
The often repeated. But by white racists depleted.
"AND WITHIN EACH OF THESE GROUPS THERE IS AN AMAZING AMOUNT OF DIVERSITY,[...] THE DIVERSITY IS INDIGNIOUS TO AFRICAN POPULATIONS":
Tracing Family Trees, And Human History, With Genetics
--Brenna Henn
quote:According to the current data East Africa is home to nearly 2/3 of the world genetic diversity independent of sampling effect.
--Jibril Hirbo, Sara Tishkoff et al.
The Episode of Genetic Drift Defining the Migration of Humans out of Africa Is Derived from a Large East African Population Size
PLoS One. 2014; 9(5): e97674. Published online 2014 May 20. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0097674
quote:Khoisan hunter-gatherers have been the largest population throughout most of modern-human demographic history
The Khoisan people from Southern Africa maintained ancient lifestyles as hunter-gatherers or pastoralists up to modern times, though little else is known about their early history. Here we infer early demographic histories of modern humans using whole-genome sequences of five Khoisan individuals and one Bantu speaker. Comparison with a 420 K SNP data set from worldwide individuals demonstrates that two of the Khoisan genomes from the Ju/’hoansi population contain exclusive Khoisan ancestry. Coalescent analysis shows that the Khoisan and their ancestors have been the largest populations since their split with the non-Khoisan population ~100–150 kyr ago. In contrast, the ancestors of the non-Khoisan groups, including Bantu-speakers and non-Africans, experienced population declines after the split and lost more than half of their genetic diversity. Paleoclimate records indicate that the precipitation in southern Africa increased ~80–100 kyr ago while west-central Africa became drier. We hypothesize that these climate differences might be related to the divergent-ancient histories among human populations.
[...]
Yet Khoisan populations have maintained the greatest nuclear-genetic diversity among all human populations3, 4, 5 and the most ancient Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA lineages6, 7, implying relatively larger effective population sizes for ancestral Khoisan populations.
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova thank you so much for answering my question directly
For all the premade block of text he put up he did not put up Y DNA and mtDNA frequenices of the Greeks. That would be the first thing to do to analyze this question
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the questioner: the lioness im still waiting for you to show me one ethnic group in Europe who have curly hair and do not belong to haplogroup E
i rest my case about curly hair
now back to ancient greeks
The DNA of the Khosians is predominantly haplogroup A, haplgropup B and maternally L0d.
These haplogroups are older than E
Any Hg E you find in Khosians is likely due to admixture with bantus
They have the tightest curled hair on the planet
As Africans left Africa they evolved into different types. So in the transistion you might have looser curled types, such as the Jews as you mentioned, some with their Jew-fros
So this is not regarded as "mixed" as if they have two different founder parents at some point of different "races"
The people of Oceania, the Andaman Islanders near India, Negritos in the Philipines are not E carriers but many of them look African and many of them have afro type hair or some near variant of it, curls They are not African. They have been out of Africa for 60,000 years and can be distingushed from Africans by genetics.
You shouldn't make an assumption like any European who has curly hair has ancestors who were haplogoup E carriers because you have no evidence to support that,
there are specific genes that cause curly hair and little is known about them
The only thing reaosnable to ask is
"Do any European males have curly hair but do not belong to Haplogroup E ?"
Instead of assuming something before investigating.
There are other forums where people could answer that quickly but I don't have the resources to, so at this point I can't answer that
These other forums are not Egyptsearch but I will post this question as a new thread in Egyptology and see if anybody can answer
i never said E was the only haplogroup that causes curly hair but it is the only haplogroup that causes European hair to curl due to recent mixture
Posts: 861 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2015
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quote:Originally posted by the questioner: the lioness Y DNA and mtDNA does not determine race and yes he did deal with it
You will be shocked here: Modern Jews are BlackishOf course the thread had a completely different purpose originally (Euronut agenda).
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the questioner: zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova thank you so much for answering my question directly
For all the premade block of text he put up he did not put up Y DNA and mtDNA frequenices of the Greeks. That would be the first thing to do to analyze this question
Now all of a sudden we need to analyze. But when it comes to trolling scientists with mutiple back migration claims, it is not needed to analyze?
Great euronut move!
Anyway, you never responded to the critical question. From where do Greeks come?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the questioner: i never said E was the only haplogroup that causes curly hair but it is the only haplogroup that causes European hair to curl due to recent mixture
. Are you all really going to let this nut get away with such a nonsensical statement?
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
mike111 all "white" ethnic groups who have curly hair have haplogroup E for example Greeks, Italians, Sicilians, Spaniards, Portuguese, Jews etc etc
if you are so smart then prove it wrong
Posts: 861 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2015
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quote:Originally posted by the questioner: mike111 all "white" ethnic groups who have curly hair have haplogroup E for example Greeks, Italians, Sicilians, Spaniards, Portuguese, Jews etc etc
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