The phylogenetically deep haplogroup R1b is mainly found in West Africa and the Sahel, where the frequency ranges between 85-100% among Niger Congo speakers (Cruciani et al, 2010). The paternal record of M173 on the African continent illustrates a greater distribution of this y-chromosome among varied African populations than, in Asia.
This is an interesting paper. It noted that:
quote:
. In both, African-American populations from South America were also detected the highest frequencies for the subhaplogroup R1b1a2-M269 (25.0%). In Colombia, this European subhaplogroup could have come from founders, who predominantly arrived from the Iberian Peninsula (Bedoya et al., 2006; Carvajal-Carmona et al., 2000; Carvajal-Carmona et al., 2003). In Brazil though, this was most likely related to the Portuguese population (Beleza et al., 2006). Nevertheless, it is estimated that over 110 million European men belong to this subhaplogroup (Balaresque et al., 2010), which is carried by two thirds of Western European men (Sole-Morata et al., 2014).
According to the MJ Network analysis, most Spanish and Portuguese haplotypes belonged to R1b1a2-M269, and shared the same or a very similar haplotype (Figure 51). Therefore, we cannot establish genetic differences between the Spanish and Portuguese haplotypes to infer the European source of parental ancestry among the African descendants based on the Y chromosome markers.
The presence of the Y subhaplogroup R1a1a-M17 detected among the Afro-Brazilians and the Afro-Colombians is also noteworthy (7.1% and 5.0%, respectively). The spatial frequency distributions of this subhaplogroup have been primarily found in Europe and confined to Central and South Asia (Underhill et al., 2010; Underhill et al., 2015). It might indicate European and Asian gene flow to African descendants after the abolition of slave trade.
The researcher is probably wrong about an Iberian origin for R-M269.He is wrong because many Africans already carried this haplogroup. Research on y-haplogroups in Africa suggest that R1-M269 is also widespread in Africa.
Above is a figure from Gonzalez et al., of R1 in Guinea-Bissau. The Gonzalez et al article found that 10 out of 19 subjects in the study carried R1b1-P25 or M269. This is highly significant because it indicates that 53% of the R1 carriers in this study were M269, this finding is further proof of the widespread nature of this so-called Eurasian genes in Africa among populations that have not mated with Europeans . Moreover, Guinea-Bissau was a major area of origin of many slaves during the Atlantic Slave Trade, and, as a result the South American slaves probably already came to the New World carrying R-M269. The R1 haplogroup probably originated in Africa. The phylogeography of R1 in Africa makes it clear that this y-chromosome is spread globally across Africa and includes the genetic structure of diverse African populations including Berber, Chadic, Cushitic, Khoisan,Pygmy, Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan and Semitic speaking African populations (Berniell-Lee et al, 2009; Cruciani et al, 2010; Wood et al, 2009). The fact that Dravidians carry the R haplogroup illustrate the recent introduction of R y-chromosome to Eurasia.
Abu-Amero et al (20009) reveal the fact that Dravidians carry the R haplogroups illustrate the recent introduction of Ry-chromosomes to Eurasia. The frequency of haplotype M173 in Eurasia is as follows: Anatolia 0.19%, Iran 2.67%, Iraq 0.49% Oman 1.0%, Pakistan 0.57% and Oman 1.0% . This contrast sharply with the widespread distribution of R1 in Africa that ranges between 7- 95% in various parts of Africa, especially Cameroon (Coia et al, 2005). Coia et al (2005) has revealed that no maternal Eurasian lineages have been found among Sub-Saharan Africans with a R1- M173 profile. Haplogroup V88 has the greatest frequency in Africa. It is predominately carried by Chadic speakers, ranges between 2-60% among Central African Niger-Congo speakers (Cruciani et al, 2010). Researchers have found that the TMRCA of V88 was 9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010).
The greatest diversity of R1b in Africa is highly suggestive of an Africa origin for this male lineage. Archaeological (Lal, 1963), genetic (Winters, 2008;2010a), placenames (Balakrishnan, 2005) and linguistic data group (Aravanan,1979,1980; Upadhyaya, 1976,1979; Winters 1985a,1985b, 1989) linking Africans and Dravidian support the recent demic diffusion of SubSaharan Africans and gene flow from Africa to Eurasia. An early colonization of Eurasia 4kya by Sub-Saharan Africans and Dravidian carriers of R1-M173 is the best scenario to explain the high frequency and widespread geographical distribution of this y-chromosome on the African continent (Winters, 2010c). Given the greatest diversity of R1- M173, this is the most parsimonious model explaining the frequency of R-M173 in Africa. In conclusion, the R haplogroup probably originated in Africa. In my paper POSSIBLE AFRICAN ORIGIN OF Y-CHROMOSOME R1-M173 , I argue that the P clade originated in Africa because 1) the age of R-V88 and 2) the widespread nature of R1 in Africa. Researchers have found that the TMRCA of V88 was 9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010). Eurasians carry the M269 (R1b1b2) mutation. The subclades of R1b1b2 include Rh1b1b2g (U106) (TMRCA 8.3kya) and R1b1b2h (U152) (TMRCA 7.4kya). The most recent common ancestor for R1b1b2 is probably 8kya (Balaresque et al, 2010).
In Africa we find R-M269 and V88. Clearly, R-V88 is older than R-M269 there is no evidence of archaeological evidence of a back migration or haplogroup R into Africa, but there is evidence of the migration of the Kushites and Proto-Sahara into Eurasia from Middle Africa. This supports the proposition the R haplogroups originated in Africa, not Eurasia. The fact remains that R-M269, is found among Sub-Saharan Africans from West, to East and Southern Africa. This supports my contention that this haplogroup is widespread in Africa.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The researcher is probably wrong about an Iberian origin for R-M269.He is wrong because many Africans already carried this haplogroup. Research on y-haplogroups in Africa suggest that R1-M269 is also widespread in Africa.
Because a haplogroup is found in Africa is not proof it originated there. The things indicating haplogroup origin are a combination of:
1) region in the world with the highest frequencies 2) region of the world with the highest diversity 3) oldest human remains found carrying the haplogroup
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Tukuler
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According to González (2012) Fig.1 Equatorial Guinea R-M269 is 8.93%.
Carvalho (2011) is behind the paywall but I will say this about R-P25 (x R-V88) there in Guinea-Bissau
Portuguese presence in Bissau (known as Portuguese Guinea) goes back to 1474. Considering the Guinea Company traders, the lançados, the relative lack of R-M269 elsewhere in Africa, and González' EG samples clustering with the European modal haplotype, R-M269 is not native to Guinea Bissau and it wasn't the Senhoras alone who were desponsible for the absorption of that male lineage.
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The researcher is probably wrong about an Iberian origin for R-M269.He is wrong because many Africans already carried this haplogroup. Research on y-haplogroups in Africa suggest that R1-M269 is also widespread in Africa.
Because a haplogroup is found in Africa is not proof it originated there. The things indicating haplogroup origin are a combination of:
1) region in the world with the highest frequencies 2) region of the world with the highest diversity 3) oldest human remains found carrying the haplogroup
. The presence of a high frequency of R1 in Iberia is probably due to the fact that this was a center of West-Central African Muslims who had ruled Iberia up to 1492 AD.
Your criterion for locating the origin of an haplogroup in a geographical area is met by the presence and location of the R haplogroup in West Central Africa. As noted below there is a great diversity of R1 clades in Africa. . . The European R-M269 is younger than the R haplogroup in Africa where it is global and has a high frequency in West-Central Africa. Most Eurasians carry the M269 (R1b1b2) mutation. The subclades of R1b1b2 include Rh1b1b2g (U106) (TMRCA 8.3kya) and R1b1b2h (U152) (TMRCA 7.4kya). [/QB] There is a high frequency of R1-M173 in Africa. For example, the frequency of V88 is around 80% in Cameroon and the frequency of R-M269 is 53% in Guinea Bissau Researchers have found that the TMRCA of V88 was 9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010). Eurasians carry the M269 (R1b1b2) mutation. The subclades of R1b1b2 include Rh1b1b2g (U106) (TMRCA 8.3kya) and R1b1b2h (U152) (TMRCA 7.4kya). The most recent common ancestor for R1b1b2 in Europe is probably 8kya (Balaresque et al, 2010). Y-Chromosome R1b1b2 has high frequencies in England, France, Italy and Germany (Balaresque et al, 2010). Clearly, R-V88 is older than R-M269 .
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The genetic landscape of Equatorial Guinea and the origin and migration routes of the Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88
Miguel González,1 Verónica Gomes,1,2 Ana Maria López-Parra,3 António Amorim,1,4 Ángel Carracedo,2 Paula Sánchez-Diz,2 Eduardo Arroyo-Pardo,3 and Leonor Gusmão1
In the 112 samples analysed, we were able to identify 104 different haplotypes and 13 different haplogroups (Figure 1 and Supplementary Table S2). The majority of the Y-SNP lineages found in this study (almost 80%) belong to haplogroup E, namely bearing the M2-derived allele, the most common haplogroup in sub-Saharan Africa Bantu populations. Apart from this haplogroup and five other chromosomes, all the remaining samples belong to haplogroup R, namely R1b1-P25, a lineage that is rare in Africa and is found mainly in Europe and Asia. Nevertheless, high frequencies of these lineages in some African populations have been previously reported by several authors
In our sample, R1b1 was the second most frequently observed haplogroup, which was present in 17% of the sample. Ten out of the nineteen chromosomes that belong to this haplogroup present the M269-derived allele, a typical European marker and may therefore indicate recent European influx. Although European arrivals within the last five centuries have been well reported in this country, European influx was not significant in the neighbouring regions, such as Cameroon and Gabon, where this Eurasian haplogroup is rarely observed.5, 7 The remaining chromosomes presented the V88-derived allele, which was recently reported to be present in all of the typed R1b1*-P25 African chromosome.7 Furthermore, in our sample, most of the V88 chromosomes presented non-consensus alleles at the DYS385 marker, suggesting a different additional sub-lineage within this haplogroup.
A clear separation of the R1b1b2-M269 samples was observed; they clustered with the European modal haplotype, supporting their European ancestry
Although the recently advanced hypothesis that the V88 lineages migrated with Proto-Chadic speakers from the North Africa through the Central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin,7 given that a high variance was found in lineages from haplogroup R1b1a in the sample from Equatorial Guinea, our results are also compatible with an origin of the V88 lineages in Central-West Africa.
In summary, altogether, our data are compatible with an origin of the V88-derived allele in Central-West Africa and a later migration (or migrations) across the Sahara to North Africa. Assuming this origin for V88, both the ‘Trans-Saharan' and ‘Inter-Saharan' hypotheses for the arrival of Chadic groups in the Lake Chad Basin are equally likely, as already described in other studies,8, 46 but this model is also compatible with the dispersion of V88 from Central-West to North Africa, contrary to what was proposed by Cruciani et al.7 Nevertheless, further evidence will be required to support this hypothesis, and additional data are crucial to obtain a deeper understanding of the origin and history of this haplogroup, namely from the populations in the proposed paths of migration.
As noted below there is a great diversity of R1 clades in Africa. .
The highest diversity of haplogroup R is Near East/Anatolia
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: . The European R-M269 is younger than the R haplogroup in Africa where it is global and has a high frequency in West-Central Africa.
R-M269 has a low frequency in Africa
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
the frequency of R-M269 is 53% in Guinea Bissau
Africa has 1.2 Billon people
Guinea Bissau population is under 2 million people, less than Chicago. As noted it was a Portuguese colony
R-M269 has a very low frequency in Africa,
Some berbers also carry it
The parent to the whole R before the split into R1 and R2 is R-M207, your nomenclature is outdated
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: According to González (2012) Fig.1 Equatorial Guinea R-M269 is 8.93%.
Carvalho (2011) is behind the paywall but I will say this about R-P25 (x R-V88) there in Guinea-Bissau
Portuguese presence in Bissau (known as Portuguese Guinea) goes back to 1474. Considering the Guinea Company traders, the lançados, the relative lack of R-M269 elsewhere in Africa, and González' EG samples clustering with the European modal haplotype, R-M269 is not native to Guinea Bissau and it wasn't the Senhoras alone who were desponsible for the absorption of that male lineage.
Stop trying to pretend that R-M269 is not found throughout Africa from Algeria, to the Herero of and the Khoisan Southern Africa.
You say the Portuguese had been in Africa, since 1474, you forgot to say that West Africans had been in Spain ruling much of Iberia and France since 711 AD, this was 700 years before the lançados made their way to West Africa.
There is a direct link between Senegal and Tariq ibn Ziyad’s invasion of Spain in 711. This link comes from the fact that many of the followers of Tarik came from the ribats or ‘religious schools’ he had established in northern Senegal. Troops from these ribats formed the backbone of Tarik’s army. These African Muslims ruled much of Spain until 1492, and fathered thousands Iberian children. Tens of thousands of West and Central African Muslims settled Iberia during this 700 years of African Muslim rule.
Some of these West African troops deposited R1-M269 in Spain. We don’t know where most of the West and Central African Mujahidin came from that settled Spain, but we do know that the Fulani or Fulbe are carries of R1-V88.
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Stop trying to pretend that R-M269 is not found throughout Africa from Algeria, to the Herero of and the Khoisan Southern Africa.
At very low frequencies
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
You say the Portuguese had been in Africa, since 1474, you forgot to say that West Africans had been in Spain ruling much of Iberia and France since 711 AD, this was 700 years before the lançados made their way to West Africa.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
These African Muslims ruled much of Spain until 1492, and fathered thousands Iberian children. Tens of thousands of West and Central African Muslims settled Iberia during this 700 years of African Muslim rule.
Some of these West African troops deposited R1-M269 in Spain.
So haplogroup M269 did not exist in Europe for thousands of years as commonly thought. It was brought there by Africans in 711 AD
Clyde are you serious?
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As noted below there is a great diversity of R1 clades in Africa. .
The highest diversity of haplogroup R is Near East/Anatolia
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: . The European R-M269 is younger than the R haplogroup in Africa where it is global and has a high frequency in West-Central Africa.
R-M269 has a low frequency in Africa
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
the frequency of R-M269 is 53% in Guinea Bissau
Africa has 1.2 Billon people
Guinea Bissau population is under 2 million people, less than Chicago. As noted it was a Portuguese colony
R-M269 has a very low frequency in Africa,
Some berbers also carry it
The parent to the whole R before the split into R1 and R2 is R-M207, your nomenclature is outdated
Anatolia has less diversity than than Africa. In Anatolia we see R1a = 7.5% and R1b = 16%, We find in Africa R1a and R1b also.
The phylogeography of R1 in Africa makes it clear that this y-chromosome is spread globally across Africa and includes the genetic structure of diverse African populations including Berber, Chadic, Cushitic, Khoisan,Pygmy, Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan and Semitic speaking African populations (Berniell-Lee et al, 2009; Cruciani et al, 2010; Wood et al, 2009). The fact that Dravidians carry the R haplogroup illustrate the recent introduction of R y-chromosome to Eurasia, because the Dravidians originally belonged to the C-Group of Nubia. Africans also carry haplogroup R1a.
In India the Dravidian people carry the R1a haplogroup The Dravidian people of India originally lived in Middle Africa and belonged to the Proto-Saharan Civilization. The Proto-Saharan civilization was situated in the Proto-Sahara, which includes Cameroon. . . In Cameroon we find carriers of R1a. In addition to carriers of R1a in Cameroon; the Dravidian languages are still spoken today in Cameroon see:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWyAYGlFZjkhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWyAYGlFZjk
In conclusion, the R macrohaplogroup probably originated in Africa. In my paper POSSIBLE AFRICAN ORIGIN OF Y-CHROMOSOME R1-M173 , I argue that the P clade originated in Africa because 1) the age of R-V88 and 2) the widespread nature of R1 in Africa.
posted
During the 17th and 18th centuries, the Herero migrated to what is today Namibia from the east and established themselves as herdsmen. In the beginning of the 19th century, the Nama from South Africa, who already possessed some firearms, entered the land and were followed, in turn, by white merchants and German missionaries. At first, the Nama began displacing the Herero, leading to bitter warfare between the two groups, which lasted the greater part of the 19th century. Later the two peoples entered into a period of cultural exchange.
During the late 19th century, the first Europeans began entering to permanently settle the land. Primarily in Damaraland, German settlers acquired land from the Herero in order to establish farms. In 1883, the merchant Franz Adolf Eduard Lüderitz entered into a contract with the native elders. The exchange later became the basis of German colonial rule. The territory became a German colony under the name of German South-West Africa. Rape by German men of Herero and Nama women was common, prior to 1904. The 1904–1908 German genocide against the Herero is considered by many to have been the first genocide of the twentieth century, as such it serves as the gateway to the Modern Age. Whites (mainly of Afrikaner, German, British and Portuguese origin) make up between 4.0 and 7.0% of the population.
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Stop trying to pretend that R-M269 is not found throughout Africa from Algeria, to the Herero of and the Khoisan Southern Africa.
At very low frequencies
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
You say the Portuguese had been in Africa, since 1474, you forgot to say that West Africans had been in Spain ruling much of Iberia and France since 711 AD, this was 700 years before the lançados made their way to West Africa.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
These African Muslims ruled much of Spain until 1492, and fathered thousands Iberian children. Tens of thousands of West and Central African Muslims settled Iberia during this 700 years of African Muslim rule.
Some of these West African troops deposited R1-M269 in Spain.
So haplogroup M269 did not exist in Europe for thousands of years as commonly thought. It was brought there by Africans in 711 AD
Clyde are you serious?
Yes I am serious. Stop pretending that white Europeans came from Western Europe, they originated in Central Asia, The frequency of R1 is low in Central Asia, as a result they had to have acquired haplogroup R1, after they migrated into Europe. . .
.
This article under discussion implies that South American Blacks probably obtained R1, through admixture with Iberians. This theory can not be supported by the evidence that African slaves came to the Americas carrying the R1 clade. This view is supported by the existence of West Africans in Iberia 700 years before Portuguese arrived in West Africa, and the whites probably did not carry R1 in Central Asia.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: During the 17th and 18th centuries, the Herero migrated to what is today Namibia from the east and established themselves as herdsmen. In the beginning of the 19th century, the Nama from South Africa, who already possessed some firearms, entered the land and were followed, in turn, by white merchants and German missionaries. At first, the Nama began displacing the Herero, leading to bitter warfare between the two groups, which lasted the greater part of the 19th century. Later the two peoples entered into a period of cultural exchange.
During the late 19th century, the first Europeans began entering to permanently settle the land. Primarily in Damaraland, German settlers acquired land from the Herero in order to establish farms. In 1883, the merchant Franz Adolf Eduard Lüderitz entered into a contract with the native elders. The exchange later became the basis of German colonial rule. The territory became a German colony under the name of German South-West Africa. Rape by German men of Herero and Nama women was common, prior to 1904. The 1904–1908 German genocide against the Herero is considered by many to have been the first genocide of the twentieth century, as such it serves as the gateway to the Modern Age. Whites (mainly of Afrikaner, German, British and Portuguese origin) make up between 4.0 and 7.0% of the population.
Stop this nonsense, the Germans were more involved in genocide than producing half-breed children. After they raped the African women they usually murdered them.
quote:
Germany plans to formally apologise to Namibia for the extermination of its indigenous citizens a century ago, a foreign ministry spokeswoman said on Wednesday.
Sawsan Chebli said the apology would not carry any obligation of reparations.
Berlin ruled what was then called South-West Africa as a colony from 1884 to 1915.
Incensed by German settlers stealing their land, cattle and taking their women, the Herero people launched a revolt in January 1904 with warriors butchering 123 German civilians over several days. The Nama tribe joined the uprising in 1905.
The colonial rulers responded ruthlessly and General Lothar von Trotha signed an extermination order against the Hereros.
The Namas and Herero who were rounded up in prison camps, died from malnutrition and severe weather. Dozens were beheaded after their deaths and their skulls sent to German researchers in Berlin for “scientific” experiments.
Up to 80,000 Hereros lived in Namibia when the uprising began. Only 15,000 were left when it ended.
Germany has since 2011 formally handed back dozens of the skulls.
posted
More than 100 million European men carry R-M269, R-M269 is most common in western Europe, reaching frequencies of 90% or more in Spain, Ireland and Wales.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
^^ This says R-269 in Africa 5.2% That is much less. At that drastic a difference would you even think of looking to Africa for it's origin? Unlike V88 which at higher frequencies in Africa by far than elsewhere which is a good starting point for the origin of that clade in Africa
However your 2009 source says>
Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages Gemma Berniell-Lee 2009
says
quote: e also find the intriguing presence of paternal lineages belonging to Eurasian haplogroup R1b1*,
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Stop this nonsense, the Germans ....
Again, Whites (mainly of Afrikaner, German, British and Portuguese origin) make up between 4.0 and 7.0% of the population of Namibia
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: More than 100 million European men carry R-M269, R-M269 is most common in western Europe, reaching frequencies of 90% or more in Spain, Ireland and Wales.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
^^ This says R-269 in Africa 5.2% That is much less. At that drastic a difference would you even think of looking to Africa for it's origin? Unlike V88 which at higher frequencies in Africa by far than elsewhere which is a good starting point for the origin of that clade in Africa
However your 2009 source says>
Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages Gemma Berniell-Lee 2009
says
quote: e also find the intriguing presence of paternal lineages belonging to Eurasian haplogroup R1b1*,
As usual you don't know what you're talking about. Below is Figure 3 where we do see R-M269.
. [/QB]
the below chart is the only mention in the article of R-M269 It also shows R1-M173 R!b-P25
But below you arbitrarily attribute it all to M269. Why did you do that?
^you cannot get 5.2% of anything via this chart
Now we go to the text where it mentions 5.2% >>
quote: We also find the intriguing presence of paternal lineages belonging to Eurasian haplogroup R1b1*, which might represent footprints of demographic expansions in central Africa not directly related to the Bantu expansion.....
A remarkable finding of our study is the substantial number of individuals belonging to haplogroup R1b1* (5.2%). Surprisingly, it has been previously observed in northern Cameroon (40%) at high frequencies (Cruciani et al. 2002) and at lower frequencies in southern Cameroon (1.12%) (Cruciani et al. 2002), Oman (1%), Egypt (2%), and Hutu from Rwanda (1%) (Luis et al. 2004). The presence of this lineage in Africa has been claimed to be a genetic signature of a possible backflow migration from west Asia into Africa (Cruciani et al. 2002). Here we observe R1b1* in 12 Bantu-agriculturalist populations (ranging from 2% to 20%) and in two Pygmy individuals.
he presence of this haplogroup in the region is especially puzzling given that, according to the known Y-chromosome phylogeny (Underhill et al. 2000), the geographic origin of the R1b lineage is situated Eurasia and not in Africa. Its sporadic presence, although at low frequencies, in some African populations has been proposed to result from back migrations from Eurasia into Africa during ancient times. The internal STR diversity of this lineage in west Central Africa points toward a putative expansion occurring 7,000 years ago,
Further analyses in an extended group of Central African populations (including Nigeria, Niger, Chad, and Sudan) might be pivotal to shed light on this poorly known demographic event in the region. It is noteworthy that the Fang population is the Bantu-agriculturalist group presenting the highest frequency of R1b1*.
^^^ The Fang don't carry M269 and if they did 5.2% would be much much less than what is typical of Europe and the Near East/Caucaus.
The Fang have very high frequencies of R-V88 that was not discovered until a year after the Berniell-Lee article and that clade does originate in Africa
So your living in the past approach isn't working and you cannot even connect the small 5.2% specifically to M269 as per this article. The article also refers to Cruciani 2002
" A remarkable finding of our study is the substantial number of individuals belonging to haplogroup R1b1* (5.2%). Surprisingly, it has been previously observed in northern Cameroon (40%) at high frequencies (Cruciani et al. 2002) "
and here is the reference to the 2002 Cruciani year before V88 was discovered:
quote:
With the exception of a single Y chromosome from Morocco with the M269 mutation (haplotype 117b), all group IX African chromosomes are characterized by the presence of the M173 and M207 derived alleles and the absence of the downstream mutations (haplotype 117). Haplotype 117 was found only in Cameroon, where it accounts for 26% of the chromosomes (40% in northern Cameroon). Chromosomes from Cameroon with this haplotype are the same as those reported in a previous article as belonging to haplotype 1C (Scozzari et al. 1999). Since, so far, no population data have been published for the M269 mutation, in the present study 102 European and 8 Middle Eastern Y chromosomes were analyzed for this marker. These chromosomes had been previously classified as haplotype 1 by Scozzari et al. (2001) (DYS257 A/ SRY10831 G chromosomes, corresponding to haplotypes 110–118 and 123 [group IX], and 124–131 [group X] of Underhill et al. [2001b]). In contrast to the group IX chromosomes from Cameroon, all western Eurasian chromosomes were found to carry the M269 derived allele.
--A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes
Fulvio Cruciani, 2002
And here is the updated Cruciani article after V88 was discoveredand a sub clade of it V69 not to be confused with M269 >
As usual Clyde you like to live in that past and even in living in the past you only came up with 5.2%, not very impressive and it was not M269
As we can see M269 is found in berbers in low frequencies, not a surprise
quote: About one third of the African R-V88 chromosomes carried mutation V69, which was not observed outside Africa.
Interestingly the Siwa list 26.9 for V88 The highest frequencies are around the Chad basin reaching 95% with the Wuzlam, also called Uldeme (Ouldémé) Chadic speakers in Northern Cameroon and in other Central Africans
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Tukuler
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How does "the relative lack of R-M269 elsewhere in Africa" translate to "R-M269 is not found throughout Africa"? If you don't understand what I wrote just ask me to expand or clarify before you go building a straw man.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: According to González (2012) Fig.1 Equatorial Guinea R-M269 is 8.93%.
Carvalho (2011) is behind the paywall but I will say this about R-P25 (x R-V88) there in Guinea-Bissau
[url=m]Stop trying to pretend that R-M269 is not found throughout Africa from Algeria, to the Herero of and the Khoisan Southern Africa.
You say the Portuguese had been in Africa, since 1474, you forgot to say that West Africans had been in Spain ruling much of Iberia and France since 711 AD, this was 700 years before the lançados made their way to West Africa.
There is a direct link between Senegal and Tariq ibn Ziyad’s invasion of Spain in 711. This link comes from the fact that many of the followers of Tarik came from the ribats or ‘religious schools’ he had established in northern Senegal. Troops from these ribats formed the backbone of Tarik’s army. These African Muslims ruled much of Spain until 1492, and fathered thousands Iberian children. Tens of thousands of West and Central African Muslims settled Iberia during this 700 years of African Muslim rule.
Some of these West African troops deposited R1-M269 in Spain. We don’t know where most of the West and Central African Mujahidin came from that settled Spain, but we do know that the Fulani or Fulbe are carries of R1-V88.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Your underscored statement is utterly preposterous.
You are confusing Tariq bin Ziyad (a Zenata of the Mediterranean coast, the Atlas, or the pre-Sahara) with two (Atlantic coast, southern Sahara and Senegal bordering Mauritanian Djudala) Sanhadja one a theologian the other an emir, namely Abdallah ibn Yasin and Yusuf ibn Tashfin, both of whom lived a full 300 years later.
The Almoravids (al~Murabitûn) invaded an already Islamized Spain backed by ~4000 Senegalese of Tekrur who were already Muslim (under Wore Ndiaye dan Rabis) before the first ribat of the region was established circa 1041 CE.
The first Muslim expedition to SE Mauritania / SW Mali led by Habib ibn Abi Ubayda was defeated. Far from founding any ribats the survivors adopted the Wagadu empire's religion and were its vassals, the Hunayhin.
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: According to González (2012) Fig.1 Equatorial Guinea R-M269 is 8.93%.
Carvalho (2011) is behind the paywall but I will say this about R-P25 (x R-V88) there in Guinea-Bissau
Portuguese presence in Bissau (known as Portuguese Guinea) goes back to 1474. Considering the Guinea Company traders, the lançados, the relative lack of R-M269 elsewhere in Africa, and González' EG samples clustering with the European modal haplotype, R-M269 is not native to Guinea Bissau and it wasn't the Senhoras alone who were desponsible for the absorption of that male lineage.
Stop trying to pretend that R-M269 is not found throughout Africa from Algeria, to the Herero of and the Khoisan Southern Africa.
Some of these West African troops deposited R1-M269 in Spain. We don’t know where most of the West and Central African Mujahidin came from that settled Spain, but we do know that the Fulani or Fulbe are carries of R1-V88. [/QB]
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Clyde's mistake was to tabulate R-M269 as 53% of the EG total rather 53% of its EG R-P25 sub-total.
Proof of fact that Clyde's table is highly inaccurate in ascribing 53% R-M269 to Equatorial Guinea and that 8.93% is what González (2012) reports.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: According to González (2012) Fig.1 Equatorial Guinea R-M269 is 8.93%.
.
Clyde's mistake was to tabulate R-M269 as 53% of the EG total rather 53% of its EG R-P25 sub-total.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Here is the STR network supporting Equatorial Guinea R-M269 clustering with the European modal R-M269. Six of the EG samples are the European modal haplotype. The remaining four are downstream variants of the European modal haplotype differing in only a few alleles.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: According to González (2012) Fig.1 Equatorial Guinea R-M269 is 8.93%.
Carvalho (2011) is behind the paywall but I will say this about R-P25 (x R-V88) there in Guinea-Bissau
Portuguese presence in Bissau (known as Portuguese Guinea) goes back to 1474. Considering the Guinea Company traders, the lançados, the relative lack of R-M269 elsewhere in Africa, and González' EG samples clustering with the European modal haplotype, R-M269 is not native to Guinea Bissau and it wasn't the Senhoras alone who were desponsible for the absorption of that male lineage. [/qb]
Stop trying to pretend that R-M269 is not found throughout Africa from Algeria, to the Herero of and the Khoisan Southern Africa.
You say the Portuguese had been in Africa, since 1474, you forgot to say that West Africans had been in Spain ruling much of Iberia and France since 711 AD, this was 700 years before the lançados made their way to West Africa.
There is a direct link between Senegal and Tariq ibn Ziyad’s invasion of Spain in 711. This link comes from the fact that many of the followers of Tarik came from the ribats or ‘religious schools’ he had established in northern Senegal. Troops from these ribats formed the backbone of Tarik’s army. These African Muslims ruled much of Spain until 1492, and fathered thousands Iberian children. Tens of thousands of West and Central African Muslims settled Iberia during this 700 years of African Muslim rule.
Some of these West African troops deposited R1-M269 in Spain. We don’t know where most of the West and Central African Mujahidin came from that settled Spain, but we do know that the Fulani or Fulbe are carries of R1-V88.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Here is the STR network supporting Equatorial Guinea R-M269 clustering with the European modal R-M269. Six of the EG samples are the European modal haplotype. The remaining four are downstream variants of the European modal haplotype differing in only a few alleles.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: According to González (2012) Fig.1 Equatorial Guinea R-M269 is 8.93%.
Carvalho (2011) is behind the paywall but I will say this about R-P25 (x R-V88) there in Guinea-Bissau
Portuguese presence in Bissau (known as Portuguese Guinea) goes back to 1474. Considering the Guinea Company traders, the lançados, the relative lack of R-M269 elsewhere in Africa, and González' EG samples clustering with the European modal haplotype, R-M269 is not native to Guinea Bissau and it wasn't the Senhoras alone who were desponsible for the absorption of that male lineage.
Stop trying to pretend that R-M269 is not found throughout Africa from Algeria, to the Herero of and the Khoisan Southern Africa.
You say the Portuguese had been in Africa, since 1474, you forgot to say that West Africans had been in Spain ruling much of Iberia and France since 711 AD, this was 700 years before the lançados made their way to West Africa.
There is a direct link between Senegal and Tariq ibn Ziyad’s invasion of Spain in 711. This link comes from the fact that many of the followers of Tarik came from the ribats or ‘religious schools’ he had established in northern Senegal. Troops from these ribats formed the backbone of Tarik’s army. These African Muslims ruled much of Spain until 1492, and fathered thousands Iberian children. Tens of thousands of West and Central African Muslims settled Iberia during this 700 years of African Muslim rule.
Some of these West African troops deposited R1-M269 in Spain. We don’t know where most of the West and Central African Mujahidin came from that settled Spain, but we do know that the Fulani or Fulbe are carries of R1-V88.
[/QB]
This was not a mistake. I was talking about the fact that 53% of the people in Equatorial Guinea who carried R1, carried R1-M269, while 47% carried R1-V88.
You may as well give up trying to claim that R1-M269 was spread by Iberians and lançados in West Africa. If this was true it would not be carried by people from Central and South Africa. I don't believe you understand that this thread is about FORTES LIMA César Augusto , 2015 DOCTORAT DE L’UNIVERSITÉ DE TOULOUSE: Tracing the genetic origin of African descendants from South America, in which Fontes Lima hypothesizes that the explanation for the presence of R1-M269 among Afro-Americans in South America is due to African slave women mating with whites from Iberia. I liked the dissertation very much, but like most Eurocentrists, Fontes Lima failed to acknowledge that R1-M269 is present among many West Africans who never mated with white Europeans.
. .
Supporters of White supremacist genetic mythology like lioness and Tukuler continue to parrot the myth that R1-M269 is not found in Africa, when they know it is found globally on the African continent, especially in West and Central Africa. It is pathetic that Tukuler would suggest that the lançados spread R-M269 in West Africa after 1474, when Africans carrying R1-M269 had been in Iberia since 711 AD. .
. You can not dispute the fact that R1-M269 is found throughout Africa. Of course R1-M269 in Europe and Africa is the same, it was introduced into Europe recently by West and Central Africans in Iberia during the Muslim conquest of Iberia and France, and in ancient times by the Kushites,for example, the Dravidians who took R1 into India.
You can not dispute two facts. One, white Europeans originated in Central Asia, where the frequency of R1 is extremely low.
Two, since West Africans( like the Fulbe who are carriers of R1) were in Iberia 700 years before the lançados and probably deposited R1-M269, there is no way you can say the lançados influenced the spread of R-M269 in West Africa. This alone, invalidates the theory of FORTES LIMA César Augusto that the presence of R1-M269 among South American Blacks result from Iberian men mating with African slaves, since R1-M269 already existed in West Africa.
Stop trying to maintain the presence of white supremacist ideas concerning R1 in Africa, the evidence proves your comments lack any foundation.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Typical, when the science slaps you silly as indisputedly demonstrated you do an ad hominem grandstand logical fallacy that disagreeing with you makes me a supporter of white supremacy. What a charlatan.
Could there be a greater pretense than overlooking the fact of Iberians in both Guineas led to a creole population and that R-M269 there results from that?
We also know that Iberian mozarabs spilled into N Africa due to Expulsion and Portugal actually decreed mixed breeding in Sao Tome.
Look at Cape Verde. It's the same story with Iberian creole population but even heavier levels of R-M269.
It takes real blind faith in the preacher for any but the choir to not see a Euro dominant haplogroup in the places where R-M269 has meager frequencies in comparison.
Are we to believe, not think, African males harboring R-M269 abandoned the home land leaving so many many many more male offspring in Europe than in Africa? Even more than Afri dominant E-M2 ?
Preposterous, insane.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Typical, when the science slaps you silly as indisputedly demonstrated you do an ad hominem grandstand logical fallacy that disagreeing with you makes me a supporter of white supremacy. What a charlatan.
Could there be a greater pretense than overlooking the fact of Iberians in both Guineas led to a creole population and that R-M269 there results from that?
We also know that Iberian mozarabs spilled into N Africa due to Expulsion and Portugal actually decreed mixed breeding in Sao Tome.
Look at Cape Verde. It's the same story with Iberian creole population but even heavier levels of R-M269.
It takes real blind faith in the preacher for any but the choir to not see a Euro dominant haplogroup in the places where R-M269 has meager frequencies in comparison.
Are we to believe, not think, African males harboring R-M269 abandoned the home land leaving so many many many more male offspring in Europe than in Africa? Even more than Afri dominant E-M2 ?
Preposterous, insane.
Yes it is Preposterous and insane , for you to believe that even if Portugal decreed mixed breeding in Sao Tome, 700 years after West Africans carrying R1-M269 were established in Iberia, that whites took this haplogroup to Africa. History makes it clear that R1-M269 was already present in Iberia before the lançados.
And yes I believe African males harboring R-M269 left many many many male offspring in Europe because these Muslim elites had many white wives and concubines like the moors of North Africa.
How can I be a charlatan when you have presented no evidence that R1-M269 was 1) carried to West Africa by whites, or 2) that whites originated in Europe instead of Central Asia. You withdrew your first comment on this theme. You should have never re-entered the conversation. Because you took the time to reintroduce the lançados theory for the spread of R1-M269indicates to me you wanted to spread the white supremacist idea whites spread R1-M269 in Africa.
This was not a mistake. I was talking about the fact that 53% of the people in Equatorial Guinea who carried R1, carried R1-M269, while 47% carried R1-V88.
You may as well give up trying to claim that R1-M269 was spread by Iberians and lançados in West Africa. If this was true it would not be carried by people from Central and South Africa. I don't believe you understand that this thread is about FORTES LIMA César Augusto , 2015 DOCTORAT DE L’UNIVERSITÉ DE TOULOUSE: Tracing the genetic origin of African descendants from South America, in which Fontes Lima hypothesizes that the explanation for the presence of R1-M269 among Afro-Americans in South America is due to African slave women mating with whites from Iberia. I liked the dissertation very much, but like most Eurocentrists, Fontes Lima failed to acknowledge that R1-M269 is present among many West Africans who never mated with white Europeans.
. .
Supporters of White supremacist genetic mythology like lioness and Tukuler continue to parrot the myth that R1-M269 is not found in Africa, when they know it is found globally on the African continent, especially in West and Central Africa. It is pathetic that Tukuler would suggest that the lançados spread R-M269 in West Africa after 1474, when Africans carrying R1-M269 had been in Iberia since 711 AD. .
. You can not dispute the fact that R1-M269 is found throughout Africa. Of course R1-M269 in Europe and Africa is the same, it was introduced into Europe recently by West and Central Africans in Iberia during the Muslim conquest of Iberia and France, and in ancient times by the Kushites,for example, the Dravidians who took R1 into India.
You can not dispute two facts. One, white Europeans originated in Central Asia, where the frequency of R1 is extremely low.
Two, since West Africans( like the Fulbe who are carriers of R1) were in Iberia 700 years before the lançados and probably deposited R1-M269, there is no way you can say the lançados influenced the spread of R-M269 in West Africa. This alone, invalidates the theory of FORTES LIMA César Augusto that the presence of R1-M269 among South American Blacks result from Iberian men mating with African slaves, since R1-M269 already existed in West Africa.
Stop trying to maintain the presence of white supremacist ideas concerning R1 in Africa, the evidence proves your comments lack any foundation.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Well no need in addressing a stark raving madman his schizo view of the world exists only in his addled pate.
I leave it to the readership to weigh the science and history I've presented -- especially that of Senegalese practicing orthodox Islam before the Sanhadja and Wagadu kicking Arab ass making them convert to TAR whereas the Maghrebis gave up and succumbed (that shows how white supremist I am right) -- and judge that against your touchy feelies and bald face lie percentage chart and ****.
Because I'm not debating some idiot calls me white minded while he himself sits silent when Africans and Blacks get called nasty stupid uncivilized and the worst of real white supremist racist melanophobes.
You big fraud phony jump in bed with the enemy tap dancing shoe shining grinning eye rolling laughable disgrace to the race buffoon. Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Well no need in addressing a stark raving madman his schizo view of the world exists only in his addled pate.
I leave it to the readership to weigh the science and history I've presented -- especially that of Senegalese practicing orthodox Islam before the Sanhadja and Wagadu kicking Arab ass making them convert to TAR whereas the Maghrebis gave up and succumbed (that shows how white supremist I am right) -- and judge that against your touchy feelies and bald face lie percentage chart and ****.
Because I'm not debating some idiot calls me white minded while he himself sits silent when Africans and Blacks get called nasty stupid uncivilized and the worst of real white supremist racist melanophobes.
You big fraud phony jump in bed with the enemy tap dancing shoe shining grinning eye rolling laughable disgrace to the race buffoon.
Science makes it clear that the Sahel is a center of R1 in Africa, where the Sanhadja lived. But the Sanhadja were not the only Muslims in Senegal ribats, there were also Fulbe, Mande and etc .
. There is a direct link between Senegal and Tariq ibn Ziyad’s invasion of Spain in 711. This link comes from the fact that many of the followers of Tarik came from the ribats or ‘religious schools’ he had established in northern Senegal. Troops from these ribats formed the backbone of Tarik’s army. These African Muslims ruled much of Spain until 1492, and fathered thousands Iberian children. Tens of thousands of West and Central African Muslims settled Iberia during this 700 years of African Muslim rule.
53% of the people in Equatorial Guinea who carried R1, carried R1-M269, while 47% carried R1-V88.
. It is pathetic that Tukuler would suggest that the lançados spread R-M269 in West Africa after 1474, when Africans carrying R1-M269 had been in Iberia since 711 AD. .
. You can not dispute the fact that R1-M269 is found throughout Africa. Of course R1-M269 in Europe and Africa is the same, it was introduced into Europe recently by West and Central Africans in Iberia during the Muslim conquest of Iberia and France
Equatorial Guinea has a population of 757,014 people, prpbably much lower in 711 AD
85.7% of the natives are Fang people who carry haplogroup R-V88 at extremely high percentages haplogorup only discovered in 2010. Equatorial Guinea became home to more than 80,000 Hispanics from Mexico,Central America, and other Spanish speaking nations in the Americas.
The frequency of M269 is 92% in Wales, 82% in Ireland, 50% in Germany, 50% in the Netherlands, 42% in Iceland, and 43% in Denmark
and many other places in Europe
So according to you of the remaining 13% of natives of Equatorial Guinea who were not Fang R-V88 carriers that these people were part of the Islamic armies who invaded Iberia and brought M269 to Wales, the Netherlands and Denmark
Yes Clyde, very believable, you win
The white people in Wales are 92% African "Science" makes it clear, xyyman is right, white people are not from the Steppes. They are depigmented Moors
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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53% of the people in Equatorial Guinea who carried R1, carried R1-M269, while 47% carried R1-V88.
. It is pathetic that Tukuler would suggest that the lançados spread R-M269 in West Africa after 1474, when Africans carrying R1-M269 had been in Iberia since 711 AD. .
. You can not dispute the fact that R1-M269 is found throughout Africa. Of course R1-M269 in Europe and Africa is the same, it was introduced into Europe recently by West and Central Africans in Iberia during the Muslim conquest of Iberia and France
Equatorial Guinea has a population of 757,014 people, prpbably much lower in 711 AD
85.7% of the natives are Fang people who carry haplogroup R-V88 at extremely high percentages haplogorup only discovered in 2010. Equatorial Guinea became home to more than 80,000 Hispanics from Mexico,Central America, and other Spanish speaking nations in the Americas.
The frequency of M269 is 92% in Wales, 82% in Ireland, 50% in Germany, 50% in the Netherlands, 42% in Iceland, and 43% in Denmark
and many other places in Europe
So according to you of the remaining 13% of natives of Equatorial Guinea who were not Fang R-V88 carriers that these people were part of the Islamic armies who invaded Iberia and brought M269 to Wales, the Netherlands and Denmark
Yes Clyde, very believable, you win
The white people in Wales are 92% African "Science" makes it clear, xyyman is right, white people are not from the Steppes. They are depigmented Moors
We are talking about Blacks in South America and Hispanics. Stay on the topic you began.
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