Sidon, Phoenicia, AR Double Shekel. Uncertain King, 460-450 BC. Phoenician war-galley left at the base of a city wall surmounted by five battlemented towers; two lions salient addorsed below / Persian King, wearing tiara and candys, raising right hand, standing left in horse-drawn chariot driven by charioteer. BMC 4-8; Rouvier 1082-1084; cf Sear 5934.
Phoenicia, Sidon, Uncertain king AR Half Shekel. 405-395 BC. Galley left before four city towers, two lions addorsed below; Phoenician letter Beth above / King of Persia standing right, slaying lion standing on its hind legs before him. Rouvier 1092; Betlyon 14.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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The Phoenicans had coins and a mint in Tyre, obviously you don't know what "graffiti" means
Did these coins have a greek deity on them or was the image a dual purpose syncretic image functioning both as Melkart and Hercules?
It doesn't even matter. Suppose the face on it is entirely Hercules that doesn't change the fact that there is no graffiti on the coin
The reason why this coin has Phoenician writing on it is because THE PHOENICIANS HAD COINS AND THIS IS ONE OF THEM
Sarcophagus of Harkhebit
king eshmunazar Phoenician king
notice that the coffin is Egyptian the Phoenicians used objects from other cultures
this doesn't mean that the Phoenicians manufactured the objects themselves but it means they borrow these objects and put their graffiti on it
there is no evidence that the Phoenicians used coins or manufactured them prior to Alexander the great same goes for ancient Egypt because there is no evidence to prove that the ancient Egyptians used coins prior to Alexander the great
when Alexander the great conquered Egypt and Phoenicia he imposed Greek culture on these civilizations
however bottom-line so far you have not found a single ancient reference to prove that Phoenicians used coins
Carthage did not use coins at all
Posts: 861 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2015
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Coins of Sidon, now in Lebanon
Sidon, Phoenicia, AR Double Shekel. Uncertain King, 460-450 BC. Phoenician war-galley left at the base of a city wall surmounted by five battlemented towers; two lions salient addorsed below / Persian King, wearing tiara and candys, raising right hand, standing left in horse-drawn chariot driven by charioteer. BMC 4-8; Rouvier 1082-1084; cf Sear 5934.
Phoenicia, Sidon, Uncertain king AR Half Shekel. 405-395 BC. Galley left before four city towers, two lions addorsed below; Phoenician letter Beth above / King of Persia standing right, slaying lion standing on its hind legs before him. Rouvier 1092; Betlyon 14.
Bust of the Punic goddess Tanit found in the Carthaginian necropolis of Puig des Molins, dated 4th century BC,
^^^ the above is a bust of Persephone not tanit it was brought to Carthage by the greek Sicilian tyrant agathocles busts of Persephone
Posts: 861 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2015
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Coins of Sidon, now in Lebanon
Sidon, Phoenicia, AR Double Shekel. Uncertain King, 460-450 BC. Phoenician war-galley left at the base of a city wall surmounted by five battlemented towers; two lions salient addorsed below / Persian King, wearing tiara and candys, raising right hand, standing left in horse-drawn chariot driven by charioteer. BMC 4-8; Rouvier 1082-1084; cf Sear 5934.
Phoenicia, Sidon, Uncertain king AR Half Shekel. 405-395 BC. Galley left before four city towers, two lions addorsed below; Phoenician letter Beth above / King of Persia standing right, slaying lion standing on its hind legs before him. Rouvier 1092; Betlyon 14.
^^^ the above are Persian coins brought to Phoenicia during the Persian conquest
Artaxerxes 3 of Persia (ca. 425 BC – 338 BC) was the Great King (Shah) of Persia and the eleventh Emperor of the Achaemenid Empire, as well as the first Pharaoh of the 31st dynasty of Egypt.
Achaemenid Empire, Time of Xerxes II to Artaxerxes II
king darius killing lion Posts: 861 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2015
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posted
^^^ that makes a fairly good argument that the imagery is Persian
^^ However when we look at the Phoenician writing on this coin It's not scratched in.
Had it been scratched or engraved into the coin then you could make and argument that that filed off an original different back that was different and then engraved new writing into the coin.
It is raised relief. It stands slight above the surface rather than below the surface That wouldn't have been put on to the coin later.
That means that the coin was originally molded with Phoenician writing in it, this is obvious, Phoenician writing, Phoenician function, Phoenician coin
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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(this coin dates to 237 bc the time after Alexander the great)
compare it to Greek writings on coins
the coin is obviously Greek it has "Phoenician" graffiti molded on it
the Phoenicians and Carthaginians never struck coins their main monetary was leather money and bargaining (because the Phoenicians were an international trading people)
when Phoenicia was colonized by (via alexander the great and Cambyses) Persians and Greeks they change the monetary from leather and bargaining to coins this explains why there are Persian and Greek coins with Phoenician writing or graffiti on them
Carthage was never colonized by greeks or Persians but they were ransacked by Sicilian Greeks under agathocles and Nebuchadnezzar II the Babylonian
when the Romans completely destroyed Carthage they imposed their culture and architecture on them thus completely erasing their culture
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now in the next 10 or 20 minutes you will go searching for it (in vain)
- this after you already made the statement
i did not make it up because obviously your looking at it (proof is in your face)
do you know how a coin is made?
the graffiti was incorporated into the Greek mold before it was press to the metal (coin)
most of these coins were used by Greeks who traded or dominated the Phoenicians
when Phoenicia or Carthage was independent of Greek, Roman,and Persian rule they did not use coins
Posts: 861 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2015
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That means that the coin was originally molded with Phoenician writing in it, this is obvious, Phoenician writing, Phoenician function, Phoenician coin
with that logic than i can say the same thing Greek god(Hercules), Greek function, Greek coin
the graffiti was incorporated into the Greek mold before it was press to the metal (coin)
1) how do you know this?
2) and after you answer that if such a thing was done why are you calling it "graffiti" when historians don't use that term to describe something like that?
3) what would the purpose of having Phoenician writing on this coin be? Why Phoenician writing?
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the graffiti was incorporated into the Greek mold before it was press to the metal (coin)
1) how do you know this?
2) and after you answer that if such a thing was done why are you calling it "graffiti" when historians don't use that term to describe something like that?
3) what would the purpose of having Phoenician writing on this coin be? Why Phoenician writing?
graffiti because it is on a Greek coin depicting Greek art work
perhaps to show case Phoenician dominance over Greek people or Greeks to have a translation for Greek dominance over Phoenician people (historians can only guess)
Greeks normally do not write the names Hercules or Zeus on coins when they depict them
why would they have Greek gods and art on Phoenician coins? is a better question considering the Phoenicians have their own culture
Posts: 861 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2015
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the graffiti was incorporated into the Greek mold before it was press to the metal (coin)
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
what would the purpose of having Phoenician writing on this coin be? Why Phoenician writing?
:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
perhaps to show case Phoenician dominance over Greek people or Greeks to have a translation for Greek dominance over Phoenician people (historians can only guess)
the coin has Phoenician writing on so that people who read Phoenician can read it. There are many sources that say the Phoenicians had a mint in Tyre, Lebanon
It would be more reasonable that you acknowledge that the Phoenicians and Carthaginians had coins, coins with Phoenician writing on them and used these coins to exchange for goods
but then argue that the Gods depicted on these Phoenician/Carthaginian coins were Greek
That is more worthy of consideration than to say they didn't have coins
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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the graffiti was incorporated into the Greek mold before it was press to the metal (coin)
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
what would the purpose of having Phoenician writing on this coin be? Why Phoenician writing?
:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
perhaps to show case Phoenician dominance over Greek people or Greeks to have a translation for Greek dominance over Phoenician people (historians can only guess)
the coin has Phoenician writing on so that people who read Phoenician can read it. There are many sources that say the Phoenicians had a mint in Tyre, Lebanon
It would be more reasonable that you acknowledge that the Phoenicians and Carthaginians had coins, coins with Phoenician writing on them and used these coins to exchange for goods
but then argue that the Gods depicted on these Phoenician/Carthaginian coins were Greek
That is more worthy of consideration than to say they didn't have coins
in conclusion
the Phoenicians did not mint coins prior to Persian colonization (there are no sources that prove they minted coins prior)
coins with Phoenician writing on them are not found in Carthage or Africa (they are only found in Sicilian and Spanish territories where the population struck coins because of Greek influence)
the coins depict Greek personalities not Phoenicians or Carthaginians (this is a fact)
the coins of Persephone in Africa were brought there by Agathocles (this is well documented through Diodorus siculus)
the only reference of Carthaginian money is leather money (this is also a fact)
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Kerkouane or Kerkuane (Arabic: كركوان, Karkwān) is a Punic city in north-eastern Tunisia, near Cape Bon. This Phoenician city was probably abandoned during the First Punic War (c. 250 BC) and, as a result, was not rebuilt by the Romans. It had existed for almost 400 years.
Excavations of the town have revealed ruins and coins from the 4th and 3rd Centuries BC.
Carthaginian currency featured a female head identified as the goddess Tanit.[10] One issue of bronze coins in two denominations—Tanit the god of sun on the obverse and a galloping horse reverse—was coined at Kerkouane on Cape Bon during the resistance to the invasion of Regulus amid the First Punic War.[7] A great deal of highly debased coins were struck at the end of the First Punic War, however, to deal with the empire's revolting mercenaries.[11]
Between the First and Second Punic Wars, Carthage only issued bronze coins in North Africa,[11] although the Barcids issued gold and silver coins in Spain[4] bearing the head of Melqart obverse and a horse and palm tree reverse.[12] The gold coins were produced at a weight of 7.50 g, reflecting a value of 12 silver shekels each at a bullion exchange rate of 1:11⅓
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Kerkouane or Kerkuane (Arabic: كركوان, Karkwān) is a Punic city in north-eastern Tunisia, near Cape Bon. This Phoenician city was probably abandoned during the First Punic War (c. 250 BC) and, as a result, was not rebuilt by the Romans. It had existed for almost 400 years.
Excavations of the town have revealed ruins and coins from the 4th and 3rd Centuries BC.
Carthaginian currency featured a female head identified as the goddess Tanit.[10] One issue of bronze coins in two denominations—Tanit the god of sun on the obverse and a galloping horse reverse—was coined at Kerkouane on Cape Bon during the resistance to the invasion of Regulus amid the First Punic War.[7] A great deal of highly debased coins were struck at the end of the First Punic War, however, to deal with the empire's revolting mercenaries.[11]
Between the First and Second Punic Wars, Carthage only issued bronze coins in North Africa,[11] although the Barcids issued gold and silver coins in Spain[4] bearing the head of Melqart obverse and a horse and palm tree reverse.[12] The gold coins were produced at a weight of 7.50 g, reflecting a value of 12 silver shekels each at a bullion exchange rate of 1:11⅓
show the coins with tanit
Posts: 861 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2015
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quote:Originally posted by the questioner: supposed Carthaginian coin with a supposed portrait of tanit coin of persephone
(note the similarities)
. If your point is that Albinos make FAKE coins for all Black civilizations - that is true.
But your statement: "there is no reference to Carthaginian coinage in ancient times
this is mainly a modern historian theory
when Carthage was colonized by Romans is when they introduced coin use as a currency".
Makes no sense as Carthaginians were from Tyre, and Tyre had coinage from supposedly several hundred B.C.
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Punic coin struck 400-350 BC and circulated hundreds of years before the 1st Punic War (264-241 BC)
Punic coin struck circa 221-210 BC, was circulating just prior to and during the Hannibalic War of 218-201 BC.
Again you can argue that the Phoenicians used Greek artisans to make their coins and possibly Greek gods on their coins but you cant argue they didnt have coins
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Punic coin struck 400-350 BC and circulated hundreds of years before the 1st Punic War (264-241 BC)
Punic coin struck circa 221-210 BC, was circulating just prior to and during the Hannibalic War of 218-201 BC.
Again you can argue that the Phoenicians used Greek artisans to make their coins and possibly Greek gods on their coins but you cant argue they didnt have coins
^^^^i don't see Phoenician on any of these coins
how do you know its Punic?
this could have been brought to Africa by the Sicilians how can you tell the difference between a Sicilian coin and a Carthaginian coin?
sorry this is not enough proof
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diodorus siculus highlights the greek sicilian presence in Carthage, africa
When Libya came into sight, the men on board began to cheer and the rivalry became very keen; the ships of the barbarians sailed faster since their crews had undergone very long training, but those of the Greeks had sufficient lead. The distance was covered very quickly, and when the ships drew near the land they rushed side by side for the beach like men in a race; indeed, since they were within range, the first of the Carthaginian ships were sending missiles at the last of those of Agathocles. Consequently, when they had fought for a short time with bows and slings and the barbarians had come to close quarters with a few of the Greek ships, Agathocles got the upper hand since he had his complement of soldiers. At this the Carthaginians withdrew and lay offshore a little beyond bowshot; but Agathocles, having disembarked his soldiers at the place called Latomiae(cape bon), and constructed a palisade from sea to sea, beached his ships.
7 1 "When he had thus carried through a perilous enterprise, Agathocles ventured upon another even more hazardous. For after surrounding himself with those among the leaders who were ready to follow his proposal and after making sacrifice to DEMETER and PERSEPHONE, he summoned an assembly; next he came forward to speak, crowned and clad in a splendid •himation, and when he had made prefatory remarks of a nature appropriate to the undertaking, he declared that to DEMETER and PERSEPHONE, the goddesses who protected Sicily, he had at the very moment when they were pursued by the Carthaginians vowed to offer all the ships as a burnt offering." book xx 6-7 1-3
this explains why you see Persephone coins in Carthage near cape bon
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