posted
The Hyksos were Kushites namely Hatti, that had settled much of Palestine and Anatolia.
During the Fifth Dynasty of Egypt (2563-2423), namely during the reign of Sahure there is mention of the Tehenu people. Sahure referred to the Tehenu leader “Hati Tehenu” . These Hatiu, correspond to the Hatti speaking people of Anatolia. The Hatti/Hurrian people often referred to themselves as Kashkas or Kaskas.
During the Old Kingdom the Kushites were also called heqa khasut, "ruler(s) of the foreign countries".
Hattians lived in Anatolia. They worshipped Kasku and Kusuh. They were especially prominent in the Pontic mountains. Their sister nation in the Halys Basin were the Kaska tribes. The Kaska and Hattians share the same names for gods, along with personal and place names . The Kaska had a strong empire which was never defeated by the Hittites. The hyksos according to Bright, John (2000). "A History of Israel". Westminster John Knox Press ( p.60 ); and Drews, Robert (1 October 1994). "The Coming of the Greeks: Indo-European Conquests in the Aegean and the Near East". Princeton University Press(p.254 ) included Hurrians/Hattians.
The heqa khasut, "ruler(s) of the foreign countries" or Hyksos/ Hykussos, were Hattians or Kashkas. in otherwords they were Kushites. This is obvious in their name khasut which corresponds to Kaska. The name heqa khasut , was first used by the Old Kingdom to refer to the Kushite Nubian chieftains. That is why the Hyksos / Hykussos expected the Kushites in Nubia to support them in their war with the Egyptians.
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Carnarvon Tablet I, and mentions the interception and capture of a courier bearing a message from Apepi at Avaris to his ally, the ruler of the Kingdom of Kush (modern Sudan), requesting the latter's urgent support against the threat posed by Kamose's activities against both their kingdoms.
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Hatti In the ancient literature the Proto Dravidians are called Kushites. Using boats the Kushites moved down ancient waterways many now dried up, to establish new towns in Asia and Europe after 3500 BC. The Kushites remained supreme around the world until 1400 1200 BC. During this period the Hua (Chinese) and Indo European (I E) speakers began to conquer the Kushites whose cities and economies were destroyed as a result of natural catastrophes which took place on the planet between 1400 1200 BC. Later, after 500 AD, Turkish speaking people began to settle parts of Central Asia. This is the reason behind the presence of the K s h element in many place names in Asia e.g., Kashgar, HinduKush, and Kosh. The HinduKush in Harappan times had lapis lazuli deposits.
Proto Saharans/Kushites expanded into Inner Asia from two primary points of dispersal : Iran and Anatolia. In Anatolia the Kushites were called Hattians and Kaska. In the 2nd millennium BC, the north and east of Anatolia was inhabited by non I E speakers.
Anatolia was divided into two lands “the land of Kanis” and the “land of Hatti”. The Hatti were related to the Kaska people who lived in the Pontic mountains.
Hattians lived in Anatolia. They worshipped Kasku and Kusuh. They were especially prominent in the Pontic mountains. Their sister nation in the Halys Basin were the Kaska tribes. The Kaska and Hattians share the same names for gods, along with personal and place names (1). The Kaska had a strong empire which was never defeated by the Hittites.
Singer (1981) has suggested that the Kaska, are remnants of the indigenous Hattian population which was forced northward by the Hittites. But at least as late as 1800 BC, Anatolia was basically settled by Hattians (2)
Anatolia was occupied by many Kushite groups,including the Kashkas and or Hatti. The Hatti , like the Dravidian speaking people were probably related . The Hatti were probably members of the Tehenu tribes.
The Tehenu was composed of various ethnic groups. One of the Tehenu tribes was identified by the Egyptians as the Hatiu or Haltiu.
During the Fifth Dynasty of Egypt (2563-2423), namely during the reign of Sahure there is mention of the Tehenu people. Sahure referred to the Tehenu leader “Hati Tehenu” .(3) These Hatiu, may correspond to the Hatti speaking people of Anatolia. The Hatti people often referred to themselves as Kashkas or Kaskas.
The Hatti controlled the city state of Kussara. Kussara was situated in southern Anatolia.
The earliest known ruler of Kussara was Pitkhanas. It was his son Anitta (c. 1790-1750 BC) who expanded the Kussara empire through much of Anatolia.
Many researchers get the Hittites (Nesa) mixed up with the original settlers of Anatolia called Hatti according to Steiner “.[T]his discrepancy is either totally neglected and more or less skillfully veiled, or it is explained by the assumption that the Hittites when conquering the country of Hatti adjusted themselves to the Hattians adopting their personal names and worshipping their gods, out of reverence for a higher culture” .(4)
Neshili, was probably spoken by the Hatti, not the IE Hittite. Yet, this language is classified as an IE langauge. Researchers maintain that the Hatti spoke 'Hattili' or Khattili “language of the Hatti”, and the IE Hittites spoke "Neshumnili"/ Neshili .(5) Researchers maintain that only 10% of the terms in Neshumnili is IE. This supports the view that Nesumnili may have been a lingua franca.
It is clear that the Anatolians spoke many languages including:Palaic, Hatti, Luwian and Hurrian, but the people as you know mainly wrote their writings in Neshumnili. The first people to use this system as the language of the royal chancery were Hatti Itamar Singer makes it clear that the Hittites adopted the language of the Hatti .(6) Steiner wrote that, " In the complex linguistic situation of Central Anatolia, in the 2nd Millennium B.C. with at least three, but probably more different languages being spoken within the same area there must have been the need for a language of communication or lingua franca [i.e., Neshumnili), whenever commercial transactions or political enterprises were undertaken on a larger scale" .(7)
•The Hatti language which provided the Hittites with many of the terms Indo-Aryan nationalists use to claim and Aryan origin for the Indus civilization is closely related to African languages including Egyptians. For example: Big, mighty, powerful protect, help upper
Hattic ur $uh tufa Egyptian wr swh tp Malinke fara solo dya, tu ‘raising’ Head stretch (out) prosper to pour Hattic tu put falfalat duq
Egyptian tup pd Malinke tu ‘strike head’ pe, bemba fin’ya du Eye hand Place King, term of respect
The Malinke-Bambara and Hatti language share other cognates and grammatical features. For example,in both languages the pronoun can be prefixed to nouns, e.g., Hatti le ‘his’, le fil ‘his house’; Malinke-Bambara a ‘his’, a falu ‘his father’s house’. Other Hatti and Malinke- Bambara cognates include: Hattic b’la ka -ka Kaati Malinke n’ye teke -ka ka, kuntigi ‘headman’
Good hypothesis generation suggest that given the fact that the Malinke-Bambara and Hatti languages share cognate terms, Sumerian terms may also relate to Hatti terms since they were also Kushites. Below we compare a few Hatti, Sumerian and Malinke Bambara terms:
Mother..... father.... lord ....,ruler... build to set up Hattic na-a............... ..........ša..... tex
Malinke na..... baba................ sa.... te Sumerian na ‘she’ aba........................ tu ‘to create’
To pour...child....son.. up....to raise...... strength.....,powerful...... land
Hatti.... dug.... pin,pinu... tufa... ur... -ka Malinke.. du den dya........., tu.... fara... -ka Sumerian.. dub... peš..... dul.... usu.... ki
Conclusion
In summary, the Hattic speaking people were members of the Kushite tribe called Tehenu. They were probably called Hati ( pl. Hatiu), by the Egyptians.
The language of the Hittites was more than likely a lingua franca, with Hattic, at its base. In Western Anatolia many languages were spoken including Hattic, Palaic, Luwian and Hurrian used Nesa as a lingua franca. For example, the king of Arzawa, asked the Egyptian in the Amarna Letters, to write them back in Nesumnili rather than Egyptian .(8)
Steiner notes that “In the complex linguistic situation of Central Anatolia in the 2nd Millennium B.C., with at least three, but probably more different languages being spoken within the same area there must have been the need for a language of communication or lingua franca whenever commercial transaction or political enterprises were undertaken on a larger scale” .(9)
This led Steiner to conclude that “moreover the structure of Hittite easily allowed one to integrate not only proper names, but also nouns of other languages into the morphological system. Indeed, it is a well known fact the vocabulary of Hittite is strongly interspersed with lexemes from other languages, which is a phenomenon typical of a “lingua franca” .(10)
Footnotes
1. Itamar Singer, Hittites and Hattians in Anatolia at the beginning of the Second Millennium B.C., Journal of Indo-European Studies, 9 (1-2) (1981), pp.119-149.
2 Gerd Steiner, The role of the Hittites in ancient Anatolia, Journal of Indo-European Studies, 9 (1-2) (1981), 119-149.
3 El Mosallamy,A.H.S. Libyco-Berber relations with ancient Egypt:The Tehenu in Egyptian records. In (pp.51-68) 1986, p.55; and L. Borchardt, Das Grabdenkmal des Konigs Sahure. Vol. II, Table 1.
4 Steiner, p.160.
5 I.M. Diakonoff and P.L. Kohl, Early Antiquity. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1990.
6. Itamar Singer, Hittites and Hattians in Anatolia at the Beginning of the Second Millennium BC,Journal of Indo-European Studies, 9 (1-2) (pp.119-149).
7 Ibid., p.162.
8 Ibid., p.161.
9 Ibid., p.162
10 Ibid., p.165.
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Damn - How African can a people look!
Boston Public Library Statues of Shepherd Kings BPLDC no.: 08_04_000038 Page Title: Statues of Shepherd Kings Collection: Tupper Scrapbooks Collection Album: Volume 26: Lower Egypt. Pyramids. Call no. 4098B.104 v26 (p. 37) Creator: Tupper, William Vaughn Description: Scrapbook page containing a photograph of a statue of the Shepherd Kings (two sphinx-like figures), annotated with information about the significance of the figures. There are also drawings of the cartouche of Pasebxanu I. .
posted
You got me Clyde, I have no evidence that the Kushites weren't people. I looked for it but I can't find any
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Clyde we need a timeline or map for the Kushites and all the various people and times that are Kushite founded or branched from
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
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Restoring what I posted when this thread was on Egyptology where it was broached but was deleted when moved here.
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There's absolutely no primary document contemporary to those days that make Kushites out of the Asiatic people who took over northern Egypt.
Hysos is a term corrupted from the AEL word heqa.khast, first documented applying to some ancient Nubian/Sudanese kings as recorded by Weni (Uni). The AEL word simply means foreign kings.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Restoring what I posted when this thread was on Egyptology where it was broached but was deleted when moved here.
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There's absolutely no primary document contemporary to those days that make Kushites out of the Asiatic people who took over northern Egypt.
Hysos is a term corrupted from the AEL word heqa.khast, first documented applying to some ancient Nubian/Sudanese kings as recorded by Weni (Uni). The AEL word simply means foreign kings.
You don't know what you're talking about:the Hyksos were called heqa khasut see:The World in Ancient Times: The ancient Egyptian world, by Oup Book.
I presented the following points in support of the Kushite origin of the heqa khasut:
1. I cited Drew and Bright, who said the Hyksos included Hurrians and Hattians; nationalities who said they were Kushites.
2.The primary evidence includes the Turin Royal Canon calling the Hyksos: heqa khasut, the same name they called the other Kushites in Nubia, during the Old Kingdom. Cite other text where this term was applied to other nations. The first four rulers of the Hyksos called themselves heqa khasut on their seals and a monumental doorjamb from Avaris. The Hyksos worshiped Ra.
3. Hyksos Kings were proud of their Kushite origin. in the Hyksos seals, the Kings wrote their names followed by the "Heqa Khasut". This indicates to me that the Hyksos used this name to illustrate their relationship to the Nubian Kushites. See; A History of Ancient Egypt by Marc Van De Mieroop.
4.The Kushite origin of the Hyksos is obvious in their name khasut which corresponds to Kaska.
5.I showed how the Hurrian and Hattian language is related to languages spoken by the Kushites.
6.The heqa khasut and Kushites in Nubia were allies. Name any other Lower Egyptians the Kushites claimed as their allies.
7. The name of Hyksos king Khyan have been found at Hattusa in Anatolia. Hatusa was a Hattian city.See: A History of Ancient Egypt by Marc Van De Mieroop.
8. Many sealings found in Kerma, the main Kushite city, include the names of Hyksos ruler. See; A History of Ancient Egypt by Marc Van De Mieroop.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
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I don't know what I'm talking about? Be humble, Sit dowwwn.
quote:Originally posted August 18, 2009 by alTakruri:
Josephus, being unfamiliar with Egyptic, took the word heqa:khast away from its literal meaning, ruler:foreign. He mistook the heqa glyph (a crook) for shepherd. We have no need to advocate his error.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: The Hyksos ( or known as the Shepherd Kings according to Josephus ) were a Semitic speaking people from Syria. Most likely associated with the Habiru people described in New Kingdom.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: I don't see anything that distinguishes the West Asian people of Palestine and Syria from the people called Habiru.
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There's absolutely no primary document contemporary to those days that make Kushites out of the Asiatic people who took over northern Egypt.
Hysos is a term corrupted from the AEL word heqa.khast, first documented applying to some ancient Nubian/Sudanese kings as recorded by Weni (Uni). The AEL word simply means foreign kings
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I don't know what I'm talking about? Be humble, Sit dowwwn.
quote:Originally posted August 18, 2009 by alTakruri:
Josephus, being unfamiliar with Egyptic, took the word heqa:khast away from its literal meaning, ruler:foreign. He mistook the heqa glyph (a crook) for shepherd. We have no need to advocate his error.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: The Hyksos ( or known as the Shepherd Kings according to Josephus ) were a Semitic speaking people from Syria. Most likely associated with the Habiru people described in New Kingdom.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: I don't see anything that distinguishes the West Asian people of Palestine and Syria from the people called Habiru.
.
There's absolutely no primary document contemporary to those days that make Kushites out of the Asiatic people who took over northern Egypt.
Hysos is a term corrupted from the AEL word heqa.khast, first documented applying to some ancient Nubian/Sudanese kings as recorded by Weni (Uni). The AEL word simply means foreign kings
You don't know what you're talking about:the Hyksos were called heqa khasut see:The World in Ancient Times: The ancient Egyptian world, by Oup Book. , not Habiru or Shepherd Kings.
Stop making up stuff. The Hyksos ruled from 1650-1550. The New Kingdom lasted from 1549-1292. The New Kingdom Egyptians called the Asians: Habiru. it is clear that if the Habiru and Heqa Khasut were the same people, they would have had the same name given the fact the New Kingdom, began at the end of the Heqa Khasut Dynasty.
The Old Kingdom rulers of Egypt called the Kushites Heqa Khasut. Since the Hyksos were called Heqa Khasut, instead of Habiru, proves that they were given this title because they were Kushites like the Kushite people living at Kerma in Nubia.
Moreover above you make it clear :Heqa means ruler. Therefor Heqa Khasut means "Ruler of the Kushites".
I presented the following points in support of the Kushite origin of the heqa khasut:
1. I cited Drew and Bright, who said the Hyksos included Hurrians and Hattians; nationalities who said they were Kushites.
2.The primary evidence includes the Turin Royal Canon calling the Hyksos: heqa khasut, the same name they called the other Kushites in Nubia, during the Old Kingdom.
Tukuler Cite other text where this term was applied to other nations. The first four rulers of the Hyksos called themselves heqa khasut on their seals and a monumental doorjamb from Avaris. The Hyksos worshiped Ra.
3. Hyksos Kings were proud of their Kushite origin. in the Hyksos seals, the Kings wrote their names followed by the "Heqa Khasut". This indicates to me that the Hyksos used this name to illustrate their relationship to the Nubian Kushites. See; A History of Ancient Egypt by Marc Van De Mieroop.
4.The Kushite origin of the Hyksos is obvious in their name khasut which corresponds to Kaska.
5.I showed how the Hurrian and Hattian language is related to languages spoken by the Kushites.
6.The heqa khasut and Kushites in Nubia were allies. Name any other Lower Egyptians the Kushites claimed as their allies.
7. The name of Hyksos king Khyan have been found at Hattusa in Anatolia. Hatusa was a Hattian city.See: A History of Ancient Egypt by Marc Van De Mieroop.
8. Other primary evidence include many sealings found in Kerma, the main Kushite city, include the names of Hyksos ruler. See; A History of Ancient Egypt by Marc Van De Mieroop.
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Clyde's right
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Again you fail to produce one piece of contemporaneous primary document in evidence.
The AEL lit is quite certain the Hyksos were Aamw not Nhhsw origin.
None other than Kamose himself said "His Majesty spoke in his palace to his council of magistrates who were in his train: 'To what end do I know my (own) strength? One chief is in Avaris, another in Kush, and I sit (here) associated with an Asiatic and a Nubian! Each man has his slice in this Egypt and so the land is partitioned with me! None can pass through it(2) as far as Memphis (although it is) Egyptian water! See he (even) has Hermopolis! No one can be at e ase when they are milked by the taxes of the Asiatics. I shall grapple with him that I might crush his belly, (for) my desire is to rescue Egypt which the Asiatics have destroyed.'
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: he Hyksos included both Kushites (Khasut) beardless, and Asians with beards.
So are you revising your topic now? That the Hyksos were not only Kushites but they were also Asians?
the lower row are Egyptians however
LOL. The Kushites lived in Asia and Africa, thusly Strabo wrote that "those who are in Asia, and those who are in Africa, do not differ from each other".
Everyone who has written on the Hyksos acknowledge that they were a mixed group of Asians, that include Hurrians and Hattians. These people were not Semitic speakers.
The Asian Kushites settled Palestine and Anatolia. Some of the major Anatolian Kushite tribes were the Kaska and Hatti speakers who spoke non-IE languages called Khattili. The gods of the Hattic people were Kasku and Kusuh.
During the Fifth Dynasty of Egypt (2563-2423), namely during the reign of Sahure there is mention of the Tehenu people. Sahure referred to the Tehenu leader “Hati Tehenu” . These Hatiu, may correspond to the Hatti speaking people of Anatolia. The Hatti people often referred to themselves as Kashkas or Kaskas.
The Hatti were probably members of the Tehenu tribes. The Tehenu was composed of various ethnic groups. One of the Tehenu tribes was identified by the Egyptians as the Hatiu or Haltiu.
The Hattic people, may be related to the Hatiu, one of the Delta Tehenu tribes. Many archaeologist believe that the Tehenu people were related to the C-Group people. The Hattic language is closely related to African and Dravidian languages
The Hatti controlled the city state of Kussara. Kussara was situated in southern Anatolia.
Singer (1981) has suggested that the Kaska, are remnants of the indigenous Hattian population which was forced northward by the Hittites. But at least as late as 1800 BC, Anatolia was basically settled by Hattians.
The Hattians forced from southern Anatolia were among the Hyksos who conquered Delta.
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Clyde I'm confused I thought Kushites were Sudanese and looked that way. And the Kingdom of Kush doesn't go back that far, starting around 1070 BC
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Again you fail to produce one piece of contemporaneous primary document in evidence.
The AEL lit is quite certain the Hyksos were Aamw not Nhhsw origin.
None other than Kamose himself said "His Majesty spoke in his palace to his council of magistrates who were in his train: 'To what end do I know my (own) strength? One chief is in Avaris, another in Kush, and I sit (here) associated with an Asiatic and a Nubian! Each man has his slice in this Egypt and so the land is partitioned with me! None can pass through it(2) as far as Memphis (although it is) Egyptian water! See he (even) has Hermopolis! No one can be at e ase when they are milked by the taxes of the Asiatics. I shall grapple with him that I might crush his belly, (for) my desire is to rescue Egypt which the Asiatics have destroyed.'
It does not matter if Kamose called the Hyksos Aamw, the Hyksos rulers referred to themselves as Heqa "ruler", i.e. Heqa Khasut, "Ruler of the Khasut/Kushites. In the Egyptian text from Avaris Kings like Apophis, made it clear that they were , "Rulers of Kushites.
Egyptian Khas corresponds to Kashkas or Kaska, the name for the Hattians. The Egyptian term Khasut has three different elements the ethononym Khas: Kas(ka)/Kush. Plus, the /-u/ which and the Egyptian plural marker, while the Egyptian /-t/ was a suffix that signified 'land, people'.
Camille DiBiase Dyson in Foreigners and Egyptians in the Late Egyptian Stories (Boston,2013), referred to the King of Kush (Kerma) , as" his son". This reference indicates the intimate relationship between the Kushites at Kerma and the Hyksos in Lower Egypt..
Its not what the Egyptians called the Khasuts, its what they called themselves.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Clyde I'm confused I thought Kushites were Sudanese and looked that way. And the Kingdom of Kush doesn't go back that far, starting around 1070 BC
Stop playing dumb. We have discused the two Kushes over the years. Oh, I forgot you're not the original lioness.
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I was talking about the original Kushite Kingdom in Sudan whose capital was at at Meroe.
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Khas.w.t doesn't mean Kush. It means foreigners. The glyph is far from exclusive. It determined all non Egypt lands, nations, and peoples.
Kash is the glyph for Kush.
Be serious, how can Kash mean Kush, while Khas means foreigners in Eurasia that were recognized as Kushites like the Kaska, Kassite, Hattians and Hurrians. This is your interpretation. There is little difference between Khas and Kash. As everyone knows who has studied Egyptian , -w.t, are nothing more than suffixation elements.
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Researchers have made it clear that the Hyksos were a mixed group. This is obvious in the hieroglyphic and iconographic evidence of the Hyksos.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Seriously, consult THE Wöerterbuch. Hahaha, do you know one glyph from another? Do you think khast and kash are brand spanking new?
Having failed to back up your view with even one single solitary prime document do you want to fail again now to post an image from any standard AEL dictionary or lexicon. You go on confusing Kash's alternate spelling Kas for khast.
You will never admit to facts because if you did who'd wanna buy a book the author cannot defend and who keep ducking and dodging simple requests for any primary contemporaneous AEL literature documentation and wishes away standard AEL dictionary entries? And on top of that says Pharaoh Kamose avenger of his father who fought Hyksos to death didn't know what he was talking about when repeatedly calling them Aamw (Asiatic) on a stela contrasting Hyksos and Kushites.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Seriously, consult THE Wöerterbuch. Hahaha, do you know one glyph from another? Do you think khast and kash are brand spanking new?
Having failed to back up your view with even one single solitary prime document do you want to fail again now to post an image from any standard AEL dictionary or lexicon. You go on confusing Kash's alternate spelling Kas for khast.
You will never admit to facts because if you did who'd wanna buy a book the author cannot defend and who keep ducking and dodging simple requests for any primary contemporaneous AEL literature documentation and wishes away standard AEL dictionary entries? And on top of that says Pharaoh Kamose avenger of his father who fought Hyksos to death didn't know what he was talking about when repeatedly calling them Aamw (Asiatic) on a stela contrasting Hyksos and Kushites.
Stop whining Tukuler. You win an argument based on evidence. I have presented abundant evidence in support of some of the Hyksos being Kushites. You have not falsified any of my claims. Researchers have made it clear that the Hyksos included many different nationalities. The hyksos according to John Bright, "A History of Israel". Westminster John Knox Press ( p.60 ); and Robert Drews, "The Coming of the Greeks: Indo-European Conquests in the Aegean and the Near East"( Princeton University Press [p.254] ) included Hurrians/Hattians, in addition to Canaanites. This means that the name Aamw, was a generic name for ‘Asians’, and did not denote a specific Asian tribe.
You don't know what you're talking about:the Hyksos were called heqa khasut see:The World in Ancient Times: The ancient Egyptian world, by Oup Book. , not Habiru or Shepherd Kings.
Stop making up stuff. The Hyksos ruled from 1650-1550. The New Kingdom lasted from 1549-1292. During the New Kingdom Egyptians used the name Aamw, as a generic name for the Asian, the term : Habiru, was ethnonym for one of the Asian tribes. It is clear that if the Habiru and Heqa Khasut were the same people, they would have had the same name given the fact the New Kingdom, began at the end of the Heqa Khasut Dynasty.
During the Fifth Dynasty of Egypt (2563-2423), namely during the reign of Sahure there is mention of the Tehenu people. Sahure referred to the Tehenu leader “Hati Tehenu” . These Hatiu, correspond to the Hatti speaking people of Anatolia. The Hatti/Hurrian people often referred to themselves as Kashkas or Kaskas.
This means that During the Old Kingdom the term heqa khasut, did not mean "ruler(s) of the foreign countries", as assumed by most Egyptologist. The term meaning of heqa khasut, was really "ruler(s) of the Kushites". If heqa khasut, meant "ruler(s) of the foreign countries", it would have been applied to every foreign country, but foreign kings were usually referrewd to as wr ‘King’, instead of heqa which was reserved for Egyptian rulers as noted by Camille DiBiase Dyson in, Foreigners and Egyptians in the Late Egyptian Stories (Boston,2013).
It does not matter if Kamose called the Hyksos Aamw, the Hyksos rulers referred to themselves as Heqa "ruler", i.e. Heqa Khasut, "Ruler of the Khasut/Kushites. In the Egyptian text from Avaris Kings like Apophis, made it clear that they were , "Rulers of Kushites.
Egyptian Khas corresponds to Kashkas or Kaska, the name for the Hattians. The Egyptian term Khasut has three different elements the ethononym Khas: Kas(ka)/Kush. Plus, the /-u/ which and the Egyptian plural marker, while the Egyptian /-t/ was a suffix that signified 'land, people'.
The Old Kingdom rulers of Egypt called the Kushites Heqa Khasut. Since the Hyksos were called Heqa Khasut, instead of Habiru, proves that they were given this title because they were Kushites like the Kushite people living at Kerma in Nubia. Finally stop making the false claim that there are no Egyptian text where the Hyksos called themselves Khas= Kushite. The Egyptian textual evidence include The primary evidence includes the Turin Royal Canon where the Hyksos were styled : heqa khasut, the same name they called the other Kushites in Nubia, during the Old Kingdom. During the New Kingdom, the Kushites were still being called Kash, the same name the Hattians called themselves:i.e., Kashka.
Tukuler Cite other text where this term was applied to other nations.
Stop lying . I will again present the primary contemporaneous AEL literature documentation, showing that the Hyksos called themselves: Khas which corresponds to Kash , the Egyptian name for Kush.
The first four rulers of the Hyksos called themselves heqa khasut on their seals and a monumental doorjamb from Avaris. This is primary contemporaneous AEL literature epigraphic documentation evidence indicating that they called themselves Khas.The Hyksos worshiped Ra.
Hyksos Kings were proud of their Kushite origin. in the Hyksos seals, the Kings wrote their names followed by the "Heqa Khasut", i.e. “King of the Kushites”. These sealings are primary contemporaneous AEL literature documentation ,indicating that the Hyksos used this name to illustrate their Kushite ancestry and relationship to the Nubian Kushites. See; A History of Ancient Egypt by Marc Van De Mieroop.
The meaning of Khas, has to be Kush, because why would Hyksos kings refer to themselves as ‘foreign kings’, when they were native to the land they ruled.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
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The meaning of khast has to be what the AEL dictionaries say.
Be humble. Sit dowwwn.
No prime doc. No dictionary. Just a lame meme applying to yoself.
I sliced ya left. I sliced ya right. Whatchagonnado, bleed on me?
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Be humble. Sit dowwwn.
No prime doc. No dictionary. Just a lame meme applying to yoself.
I sliced ya left. I sliced ya right. Whatchagonnado, bleed on me?
. Stop whining Tukuler. You win an argument based on evidence. I have presented abundant evidence in support of some of the Hyksos being Kushites. You have not falsified any of my claims. Researchers have made it clear that the Hyksos included many different nationalities. The hyksos according to John Bright, "A History of Israel". Westminster John Knox Press ( p.60 ); and Robert Drews, "The Coming of the Greeks: Indo-European Conquests in the Aegean and the Near East"( Princeton University Press [p.254] ) included Hurrians/Hattians, in addition to Canaanites. This means that the name Aamw, was a generic name for ‘Asians’, and did not denote a specific Asian tribe.
You don't know what you're talking about:the Hyksos were called heqa khasut see:The World in Ancient Times: The ancient Egyptian world, by Oup Book. , not Habiru or Shepherd Kings.
Stop making up stuff. The Hyksos ruled from 1650-1550. The New Kingdom lasted from 1549-1292. During the New Kingdom Egyptians used the name Aamw, as a generic name for the Asian, the term : Habiru, was ethnonym for one of the Asian tribes. It is clear that if the Habiru and Heqa Khasut were the same people, they would have had the same name given the fact the New Kingdom, began at the end of the Heqa Khasut Dynasty.
During the Fifth Dynasty of Egypt (2563-2423), namely during the reign of Sahure there is mention of the Tehenu people. Sahure referred to the Tehenu leader “Hati Tehenu” . These Hatiu, correspond to the Hatti speaking people of Anatolia. The Hatti/Hurrian people often referred to themselves as Kashkas or Kaskas.
This means that During the Old Kingdom the term heqa khasut, did not mean "ruler(s) of the foreign countries", as assumed by most Egyptologist. The term meaning of heqa khasut, was really "ruler(s) of the Kushites". If heqa khasut, meant "ruler(s) of the foreign countries", it would have been applied to every foreign country, but foreign kings were usually referrewd to as wr ‘King’, instead of heqa which was reserved for Egyptian rulers as noted by Camille DiBiase Dyson in, Foreigners and Egyptians in the Late Egyptian Stories (Boston,2013).
It does not matter if Kamose called the Hyksos Aamw, the Hyksos rulers referred to themselves as Heqa "ruler", i.e. Heqa Khasut, "Ruler of the Khasut/Kushites. In the Egyptian text from Avaris Kings like Apophis, made it clear that they were , "Rulers of Kushites.
Egyptian Khas corresponds to Kashkas or Kaska, the name for the Hattians. The Egyptian term Khasut has three different elements the ethononym Khas: Kas(ka)/Kush. Plus, the /-u/ which and the Egyptian plural marker, while the Egyptian /-t/ was a suffix that signified 'land, people'.
The Old Kingdom rulers of Egypt called the Kushites Heqa Khasut. Since the Hyksos were called Heqa Khasut, instead of Habiru, proves that they were given this title because they were Kushites like the Kushite people living at Kerma in Nubia. Finally stop making the false claim that there are no Egyptian text where the Hyksos called themselves Khas= Kushite. The Egyptian textual evidence include The primary evidence includes the Turin Royal Canon where the Hyksos were styled : heqa khasut, the same name they called the other Kushites in Nubia, during the Old Kingdom. During the New Kingdom, the Kushites were still being called Kash, the same name the Hattians called themselves:i.e., Kashka.
Tukuler Cite other text where this term was applied to other nations.
Stop lying . I will again present the primary contemporaneous AEL literature documentation, showing that the Hyksos called themselves: Khas which corresponds to Kash , the Egyptian name for Kush.
The first four rulers of the Hyksos called themselves heqa khasut on their seals and a monumental doorjamb from Avaris. This is primary contemporaneous AEL literature epigraphic documentation evidence indicating that they called themselves Khas.The Hyksos worshiped Ra.
Hyksos Kings were proud of their Kushite origin. in the Hyksos seals, the Kings wrote their names followed by the "Heqa Khasut", i.e. “King of the Kushites”. These sealings are primary contemporaneous AEL literature documentation ,indicating that the Hyksos used this name to illustrate their Kushite ancestry and relationship to the Nubian Kushites. See; A History of Ancient Egypt by Marc Van De Mieroop.
The meaning of Khas, has to be Kush, because why would Hyksos kings refer to themselves as ‘foreign kings’, when they were native to the land they ruled.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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It's a simple question. I'm surprised you're hiding from this
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Clyde, just look at you. A total deluded mess.
I put up 3 pieces from prime doc to dictionary You ain't put up zhit and you asking me for more? nigga you ain't put up one. You owe me three now. Ya hear me my nigga? Three 3.
I guess you want me to expose that stupid Hyksos statue image next. Go on now while you still got that one leg to hop around on.
posted
Tukuler doesn't understand Clydian Falsification method. A theory is true until somebody proves it false.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Ya kidding me? With one stroke he just proved the entire world known to AE script was Kush.
And to think nobody knew 'til now, Deep.
Genius I tell ya. Frickin genius!
Wuzzat u say? Who? Me?? Y itz da Smith & Cross Stormy.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Tukuler doesn't understand Clydian Falsification method. A theory is true until somebody proves it false.
This is not Clydian method, it is called Falsification.
Evidence is not equivocal. Evidence is the matter that both validates and invalidates a theory. In science, proof does not exist. Proof only exist in a court of law, where a Judge determines what is or what is not proof.
Research is the foundation of good science, or knowing in general. There are four methods of 1) Method of tenacity (one holds firmly to the truth, because "they know it" to be true); 2) method of authority (the method of established belief, i.e., the Bible or the "experts" says it, it is so); 3) method of intuition (the method where a proposition agrees with reason, but not necessarily with experience); and 4) the method of science (the method of attaining knowledge which calls for self-correction). To explain Africans in ancient America, I use the scientific method which calls for hypothesis testing, not only supported by experimentation, but also that of alternative plausible hypotheses that, may place doubt on the original hypothesis.
The aim of science is theory construction (F.N. Kirlinger, Foundations of behavior research, (1986) pp.6-10; R. Braithwaite, Scientific explanation, (1955) pp.1-10). A theory is a set of interrelated constructs, propositions and definitions, that provide a systematic understanding of phenomena by outlining relations among a group of variables that explain and predict phenomena.
Scientific inquiry involves issues of theory construction, control and experimentation. Scientific knowledge must rest on testing, rather than mere induction which can be defined as inferences of laws and generalizations, derived from observation.
Karl Popper in The Logic of Scientific Discovery, rejects this form of logical validity based solely on inference and conjecture (pp. 33-65). Popper maintains that confirmation in science, is arrived at through falsification.
Therefore to confirm a theory in science one test the theory through rigorous attempts at falsification. In falsification the researcher uses cultural, linguistic, anthropological and historical evidence to invalidate a proposed theory. If a theory can not be falsified through the variables (evidenc) associated with the theory it is confirmed. It can only be disconfirmed when new generalizations (based on evidence) associated with the original theory fail to survive attempts at falsification.
In science you either confirm, or disconfirm a theory. A valid theory has abundant evidence supporting that theory, and remains valid as long as it is not disconfirmed by a researcher who provides counter evidence, that nullifies the evidence which supported the original theory.
In short, science centers on conjecture and refutations. One makes a theory and provides evidence to support the theory. The more evidence you present in support of a theory confirms the validity of your hypothesis. If, another researcher presents more evidence that falsifies the theory, the theory must be rejected. Thusly evidence is not equivocal. Evidence will determine both the validity and lack of validity for a theory.
I have presented abundant evidence supporting my theory. The only thing Tukuler has is the picture of a dictionary page showing the various ways to interpret Kas, kash and khas-. It is obvious the same sign is a homophone and can have multiple meanings.
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It is obvious the same sign is a homophone and can have multiple meanings. Moreover the term Heqa Khasut, referred to the Kushite rulers during the 5th Dynasty, and the rulers of the area around Avaris and Sharuhen during the Second Intermediate Period. The HHyksos called themselves Heqa Khasut, the non Hyksos Egyptians called the Hyksos "Aamu". As a result my interpretation of the Hyksos term: Khas as Kush, is the correct reading.
This is obvious when you read the Hyksos scarabs. .
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As you can see the Hyksos scarabs do not have any of the lexical items associated with the Egyptian words for foreigner.
Jack be nimble Jack be quick Stop trying to be slick.
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] Tukuler doesn't understand Clydian Falsification method. A theory is true until somebody proves it false.
This is not Clydian method, it is called Falsification.
Karl Popper did not say or convey in any way a theory is true until somebody proves it false.
The idea that a theory is true until somebody proves it false is strictly Clydian
also known as makingupstuffism
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] Tukuler doesn't understand Clydian Falsification method. A theory is true until somebody proves it false.
This is not Clydian method, it is called Falsification.
Karl Popper did not say or convey in any way a theory is true until somebody proves it false.
The idea that a theory is true until somebody proves it false is strictly Clydian
also known as makingupstuffism
I am not making stuff up. A theory can neither be proven true or false.
You can only prove facts in a court of law where a judge determines what is true or false. A theory is either confirmed or dis-confirmed through abundance of evidence falsifying or confirming a theory.
Tukuler has not dis-confirmed my theory, so my theory is valid.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: I am not making stuff up. A theory can neither be proven true or false....
...until a theory is dis-confirmed it is valid...
Tukuler has not dis-confirmed my theory, so my theory is valid.
Clyde you're contradicting yourself. You are saying you can make up anything and if someone doesn't disprove it that means it's valid. For instance you say an alien left a box of crackerjacks on Mars. Then when someone else disagrees yet doesn't have the means to check every square foot of Mars and document that there is no box of crackerjacks there then there you think that means your theory is valid, that there is a box of crackerjacks there
That's Clydian Falsification Theory. your original theory
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As I noted previously to confirm a theory in science one test the theory through rigorous attempts at falsification. In falsification the researcher uses cultural, linguistic, anthropological and historical evidence to invalidate a proposed theory. If a theory can not be falsified through the variables (evidence) associated with the theory it is confirmed.
That is not the scientific method it's psuedoscience. The scientific method has a higher standard Testing a hypothesis is done to substantiate proof not merely an attempt to falsify. If a particular test is done and that test doesn't falsify the theory that does not mean the theory is true. This is why you don't have a hard science degree.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Lemme AEL dictionary nuke this khast mosquito a final time.
I told him to hop his ass on while he still had a leg.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: .
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Now would I be an asshole if I bitched to admin to remove your plagiarising my work theft of my legal intellectual property?
Why he can't put in the hard work I did in order to compose it? I found the glyph imgs. I labeled the glyphs. I transliterated them. That's what makes it my intellectual property. Then he steal it as his own? After I aks him to post prime docs and dictionary? And this behavior is cool?
Now would I be an asshole if I bitched to admin to remove your plagiarising my work theft of my legal intellectual property?
Why he can't put in the hard work I did in order to compose it? I found the glyph imgs. I labeled the glyphs. I transliterated them. That's what makes it my intellectual property. Then he steal it as his own? After I aks him to post prime docs and dictionary? And this behavior is cool?
I didn't steal anything. There is a fair use copyright policy. All I did was repeat an image you published herein.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Lemme AEL dictionary nuke this khast mosquito a final time.
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A dictionary page means nothing. Everyday Egyptologists are creating new meanings for Egyptian terms, this is why we have moved beyond Gardiner's Egyptian Sign List, to AEL dictionaries.
As I noted previously to confirm a theory in science one test the theory through rigorous attempts at falsification. In falsification the researcher uses cultural, linguistic, anthropological and historical evidence to invalidate a proposed theory. If a theory can not be falsified through the variables (evidence) associated with the theory it is confirmed. It can only be disconfirmed when new generalizations (based on evidence) associated with the original theory fail to survive attempts at falsification.
In science you either confirm, or disconfirm a theory. A valid theory has abundant evidence supporting that theory, and remains valid as long as it is not disconfirmed by a researcher who provides counter evidence, that nullifies the evidence which supported the original theory.
Tukuler you have one variable to support your proposition a dictionary page. Anyone who thinks for themselves would realize that Egyptologist have expanded the meaning of Gardiner's N25 sign since publication of his wordlist. The meaning of Egypting words is evolving, I am just interpreting the sign as it meant in Weni's time in relation to the people of Wawat.
There are 6 variables that confirm my hypothesis:
1.N25 sign from Gardiner’s List of Egyptian Signs xЗs Khas or kЗs meant Kush.
2. The "Asians' ruled by the Heqe Khas included Kushite tribes like the kaska, Hattians and Hurrians.
3. The Kaska ethononym corresponds to Khas.
4. The Hyksos Rulers said they ruled Khas. The Egyptians called the Asians Aam.
5. The hyksos called themselves Khas or kЗs
6. Hyksos left textual evidence of their use of the term xЗs Khas or kЗs, for Kush.
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. Heqe Khasut was not always translated as ‘Kings Foreign “, the original meaning of Khas/Kash, was “Kings Negroland “, there was no such place as ‘Negroland’, so the actual meaning was Kings Khas.The term Haqe Khas (xЗs), because it related to Wawat rulers had been translated as “Rulers of Negroland. The Egyptian elements / -w-t/ were added to Khas to make it plural and denote a nationality.
The Weni inscription makes it clear that the name Khas was made up (of three) N25 signs from Gardiner’s List of Egyptian Signs. The N25 sign also represents Kash = Kush. This means that N25 represented the name Kash and Khas for the ethononym Kushite.
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The meaning of N25 as Kush and Kushite is obvious in the Hyksos scarabs where we see N25, as the people the Hyksos Kings ruled.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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As I noted previously to confirm a theory in science one test the theory through rigorous attempts at falsification. In falsification the researcher uses cultural, linguistic, anthropological and historical evidence to invalidate a proposed theory. If a theory can not be falsified through the variables (evidence) associated with the theory it is confirmed.
That is not the scientific method it's psuedoscience. The scientific method has a higher standard Testing a hypothesis is done to substantiate proof not merely an attempt to falsify. If a particular test is done and that test doesn't falsify the theory that does not mean the theory is true. This is why you don't have a hard science degree.
LOL. I taught Research Methods for University Graduate students for 11 years and guided dozens of students writing their Master thesis's. In addition I wrote the research methods for several successful science grants, while I was teaching at University.
I know Research Methods.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
The Kushites were Niger-Congo speakers The Niger-Congo Speakers probably played animportant role in the peopling of the Sahara. Drake etal make it clear there was considerable human activityin the Sahara before it became a desert[1]. The Kushites in history were characterized as users of the bow-and-arrow.
. Drake et al[1] provides evidence that the original settlers of this wet Sahara, who used aquatic tool kits, were Nilo-Saharan (NS) speakers. The authors also recognized another Saharan culture that played a role in the peopling of the desert. This population hunted animals with the bow-and –arrow; they are associatedwith the Ounanian culture. The Ounanian cultureexisted 12kya [2].
The Ounanians were members of the Capsian population.There was continuity between the populations in the Maghreb and southern Saharareferred to as Capsians, Iberomaurusians, andMechtoids [3]. The Niger-Congo speakers are decendants of the Capsian population.Capsian people did not only live in Africa, they were also present in South Asia.
Using craniometric data researchers have made it clear that the Dravidian speakers of South India and the Indus valley were primarily related to the ancient Capsian or Mediterranean population [4-9].Lahovary [7] and Sastri [8] maintains that the Capsian population was unified over an extensive zone fromAfrica, across Eurasia into South India.
Some researchers maintain that the Capsian civilization originated in East Africa [7].The Ounanian culture is associated with sites in central Egypt, Algeria, Mali, Mauretania and Niger [10].The Ounanian tradition is probably associated with the Niger-Congo phyla. This would explain the closerelationship between the Niger-Congo and Nilo-Saharan languages.
The original homeland of the Kushites or Niger-Congo speakers was probably situated in the Saharan Highlands during the Ounanian period.
This is why the Egyptians often referred to the Kushites as a hill people. This is supported by the various meanings of Gardiner's Egyptian sign N25. The N25 sign from Gardiner’s List of Egyptian Signs xЗs Khas or kЗs meant Kush.
From here the Kushite populations migrated into the Fezzan, Nile Valley and Sudan as their original homeland became more and more arid.The Niger-Congo speakers formerly lived in the highland regions of the Fezzan and Hoggar until after4000 BC. Originally hunter-gatherers the Proto-Niger-Congo people developed an agro-pastoral economy which included the cultivation of millet, and domestication of cattle (and sheep).This was probably the ancient homeland of the Dravidians, Egyptians, Sumerians,Niger-Kordofanian-Mande and Elamite speakers. We call this part of Africa the Fertile African Crescent[9-10,13-14]. We call these people the Proto-Saharans[9,14]. .
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The generic term for this group is in the ancient literatures was: Kushite. Origination of these diverse Kushite tribes in the ancient Sahara, explains the analogy between the Bafsudraalam languages as outlined in Figure 1.These Proto-Saharans were called Wawat, Ta-Seti, xЗs Khas , kЗs and Tehenu by the Egyptians.
The Niger-Congo inhabitants of the Fezzan were round headed Africans [13]. The cultural characteristics of the Fezzanese were analogous to the C-Group culture items and the people of Ta-Seti and Wawat.
The C-Group people were the Proto-Saharan orNiger-Congo speakers who occupied the Sudan andFezzan regions between 3700-1300 BC [13].The inhabitants of the Fezzan were called Tmhw (Temehus). The Temehus represent the Proto-Niger-Congo speakers.The Temehus were organized into two groups the Thnw (Tehenu) in the North and the Nhsj (Nehesy) in the South [14]. A Tehenu personage is depicted on an Amratian period pottery vessel.
Some Tehenu wore a pointed beard, phallic-sheath and feathers on theirheadThe Temehus are called the C-Group people by archaeologists [13,15]. The central Fezzan was a center of C-Group settlement. Quellec [15] discussed in detail the presence of C-Group culture traits in the Central Fezzan along with their cattle during the middle of the Third millennium BC.
The Kushites lived in Ta_seti and Wawat. Europeans when they first translated the Egyptian language referred to Kush as "Negroland" The first mention of Kush, in Egyptian text was made by Wini, an Egyptian administrator. Below is the Wini text. . .
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. The Wini text Wawat King was called Heqe Khasut. Heqe Khasut today is translated as ‘Kings Foreign “, when Europeans originally translated Wini's inscription using the Gardiner Egyptian Word List, the original meaning of xЗs Khas , kЗs, was “Kings Negroland “. This interpretation of xЗs Khas , kЗs was a Eurocentric interpretation of N25, because there was no such place as ‘Negroland’, so the actual meaning was Kings Khas.
The term Haqe Khas (xЗs), because it related to Wawat rulers had been translated as “Rulers of Negroland. The Egyptian elements / -w-t/ were added to Khas to make it plural and denote a nationality.
The Weni inscription makes it clear that the name Khas was made up (of three) N25 signs from Gardiner’s List of Egyptian Signs. The N25 sign also represents Kash = Kush. This means that N25 represented the name Kash and Khas for the ethononym Kushite.
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The meaning of N25 as Kush and Kushite is obvious in the Hyksos scarabs where we see N25, as the people the Hyksos Kings ruled.
The Temehus or C-Group people began to settle Kusha round 2200 BC. The kings of Kush had their capitalat Kerma, in Dongola and a sedentary center on Sai Island. The same pottery found at Kerma is also present in Libya (and even India) especially in the Fezzan, which was one of the ancient homelands ofthe Niger-Congo speaking people.
The C-Group founded the Kerma dynasty of Kush. Diop [14] noted that the "earliest substratum of the Libyan population was a black population from the south Sahara".Kerma was first inhabited in the 4th millennium BC[16]. By the 2nd millennium BC Kushites at Kerma were already worshippers of Amon/Amun and they used a distinctive black-and-red ware [16]. Amon, later became a major god of the Egyptians during the 18th Dynasty.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] Clyde it's extremely fishy that you won't indicate what place the original Kushites came from nor when the Kushite KIngdom was founded.
Very fishy
The Kushites were Niger-Congo speakers
Clyde see these curly haired, pointy nosed, no lip Persians on the right? ^^^ They were not African Niger-Congo speakers and apart from the curly hair have the exact same facial features as the one on the left who you call an Indo-Aryan type
Who on plante earth would label Persians on the reliefs at Persepolis as Kushites?
Who else but you on the planet earth?
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, "Rulers of Kushites.
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