posted
Sometimes I surprise myself. How good I am . This was posted on ESR when I did the analysis of SLC24A5 found in Africans
=======
continuing...
Africans has greatest variation/variant of SLC24A5. More than quadruple Europeans and Asians(see chart). SLC24A5 (rs1426654*A) is just ONE of the MANY variants found in Africa. It is not absurd to claim it as Europeans. It is forgery and deception....and delusional.
Back-migration..... HA!!
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yes. I did a break down of the paper back in 2013. To the newbies, what does the below chart show? Simple. The pigmentation of Cape Verde people CANNOT be explained solely by modern European admixture.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Crackpot black supremacist IDK your motivations nor do I care, so I'm not 100% sure if its your pattern of thinking or if its your agenda to reason so linearly. Get your head out of box my friend.
My point was to falsify Xyman's bizarre statement "Up to 4000BC most Europeans were black" when they weren't.
La Brana 1
This isn't black, but a lighter brown; these Mesolithic specimens like La Brana 1 are known to have had derived ASIP, IRF4 or KITLG involved in skin lightening. Like I said, La Brana 1 looks considerably lighter than an actual black person, like say, Robert Mugabe.
posted
@ElMaestro. my bad! I thought you were referring to Belezas 2013 which I broke down several years ago.
I just came across the 2012 paper! wow! I am now breaking it down.
Fig3 is fascinating
The Admixture Structure and Genetic Variation of the Archipelago of Cape Verde and Its Implications for Admixture Mapping Studies - Belezas2012
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Beleza's paper on the admixed cape verde population, didn't do much but further validate my point (in regards to this conversation). Essentially what she did was map out which, and to what extent do various SNP's contribute to skin color & eye color. She also helped sort out linkage via (LD) and expelled claims to that regard (such as, blue eyes came with European light skin/ you need one to have the other, etc.). All of that is cool but the most important thing comes as what I've always been repeating; Pigmentational adjustments in relation to latitudinal clines or whatever aren't 100% genetically significant.
Genetic Architecture of Skin and Eye Color in an African-European Admixed Population Beleza et al. 2013
quote:Although eye color and skin color are correlated, their underlying genetic architecture in Cape Verde is very different. Beyond HERC2 (OCA2) and SLC24A5, individual genomic ancestry has relatively little effect on eye color. By contrast, the ‘‘rest of the genome’’ (beyond APBA2 (OCA2), GRM5-TYR, and SLC24A5) has a very strong influence on skin color, nearly twice that of all four single loci combined. What is the biological basis for the large effect of individual ancestry on skin color? Theoretical explanations include non-genetic components that correlate with ancestry, or many genes of small effect whose contributions were not strong enough to be detected in our sample. We favor the latter alternative, which supports a view of skin color genetic architecture that is multimodal, in which many genes of small effect cumulatively explain the correlation between skin color and individual ancestry, and together with several genes of moderate effect (GRM5-TYR, APBA2 (OCA2), SLC45A2, and SLC24A5), account for high overall heritability.
[...]
...An accurate understanding of human diversity requires that we measure phenotype as well as genotype.
Doi:10.1371/journal.pgen.1003372
I'm in disagreement with her "multimodal" hypothesis but I left that part of the quote there for the benefit of readership, after all she[they] could be right. But here's the thing (xyyman in particular). you can be a positive het for a significant pigmentation SNP and not be effectively differentiated from your source population, for the same reasons as explained above. also, ...Yes, & it should go without saying, that Africans have the most Novel SNPs in just about all significant pigment related loci, but we're not looking at haplogroups. The oldest European is younger than the oldest African after all, this is expected. What we need is aDNA within africa with the derived Slc45a2-rs16891982 in specific to effectively prove that mutation was of African origin....though it seems to be an old mutation, it only became wide spread recently in Europe.
But what might be interesting to note as of now, which I believe may even even be resolved, is the global presence of slc24a5. Just going off of Beleza for the sake of convenience, Slc24a5 & slc45a2 are both prominent european mutations with a frequency ratio of 1.00 & 0.99-0.98 respectively (beleza et al. 2013). But slc24a5 can be found in SSA and slc45a2 is virtually absent, this effectively rules out a recent migration from Europe. furthermore slc24a5 was a thing in TMRCA of the Steppe populations, EuropeanHG, & Neolithics...? (based on freq. observed from Matheison et al. 2015 ancient pops) which..um, ...leaves very little room for a non-African origin... There's an actual chance we might be looking at genes falsely attributed to Eurasian admixture, which is why I often show interest in topics speaking of neanderthal admixture and AMH pigment.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
| IP: Logged |
posted
I missed that line of reasoning, great point.
quote: "But slc24a5 can be found in SSA and slc45a2 is virtually absent, this effectively rules out a recent migration from Europe. "
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
@ ElMaestro and anyone who can follow and has an opinion. Thoughts. Please. No Albino nonsense.
Here are some fascinating information from the paper.
========= Quote: "To further trace the spread of STR-defined lineages across the archipelago, we have also studied the patterns of haplotype sharing among islands. The highest percentage of individual Y-chromosomes with no matches on other islands was found in Santiago (81%), followed by Boa Vista and Sa˜o Vicente (51%), Fogo (38%), Sa˜o Nicolau (35%), and Santo Anta˜o (31%). Xxxxxxx . In general, the lineages sampled in the three northern islands and Boa Vista have lower levels of haplotype sharing with both Santiago and Fogo (Table 3), in accordance with the North-South discrimination observed in the second dimension of the MDS plot based on RST genetic distances (Figure 4B). However, lineages from Sa˜o Vicente and Sa˜o Nicolau still show moderate sharing levels with Fogo (,43%), suggesting that this island might have been an important source of settlers in the northward migrations during the second colonization stage of the archipelago. =======
Thoughts anyone. What does it mean? Wow! I think I found the smoking gun...
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Man I wish I had the capability to process the raw data!! What are they implying here?
Quote also: Consistent with the first hypothesis, we found that Santiago is the most genetically diverse island of the archipelago (Figure 5), and played particularly important role in the settling of Fogo (Table 3), where evidence for founder effects is especially striking (Figure 5). However, the two peopling hypotheses are not mutually exclusive and we also find a significant genetic component that is exclusive to each island.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
They gloss over quite a few things in that study that would allow for us to really get a good grasp on the meat of the data. what was presented was in line with the authors' focal point and initial hypothesis on relations between Admixture, phenotype and socio-economic status. with that being said, any peripheral findings are kinda dumbed down, I would like to see the actual raw data though.
Granted, I'm not well versed in history, more particularly Cape Verdean history, but as it relates to beleza 2012, & Gonclaves 2003, an African presence predating an Iberian one isn't necessarily, dismissed FMPOV. What Beleza et al. 2012 shows is that Santiago was probably the first settled, it has the most paternal W.African contribution by far as well as the most diverse gene pool. The diversity detected in Santiago was most likely due to the stronger African presence, and apparently Fogo is the closest subset, with some unique components as well(although much lower than Santiago and even Boa Vista).
If I had a bit more knowledge on the history of the islands I could make more sense out of it, for instance, like where in W.Africa the subjects were gathered from. Beleza and crew also did not disclose any particular genetic component of the archepelago that is exclusive to cape Verde, rather, diversity and exclusivity was measured among the islands themselves. So basically it helps organize history, to where we can re-imagine which groups wen't to which Island, etc.
Gonclaves separated the archepelago into two quadrants, which are somewhat in alignment with genomic components but its weird because the northern Islands have next 3 highest degree of African male paternal admixture?? Also The Y-haplogroup diversity of Santiago (and Fogo) are kinda high, A2, & Em33 aren't even in Guinea-Bassu according to Gonclaves but are on the island not to mention all the subclades of E-M81. Genetic drift points to a northward migration due to the fact that there's a drop off in variation going north, which is where this "founder" comes in going north from fogo, to San Antao, Sao Nic., and Sao vicente.
Beleza 2012
quote:[...]a substantial part of the North-to-South genetic differentiation can be attributed to demographic events (admixture, drift and founder effects) ensuing the initial settlement of Santiago and Fogo, without further significant exogenous contributions besides the regular importation of slaves to the two southern islands.
Basically the initial hyopthesis is based on "historical knowledge", Portuguese got slaves from Africa, brought them to Santiago first (based on record), then to Fogo, then from Fogo to Sao Vincent, Antonio & Nicholas, etc. The extra boost in diversity is attributed to more traffic being brought into Fogo and Santiago from Africa. However, although we see decrease in diversity from Santiago to fogo to the northern islands, each Island has it's own batch of exclusive components which then lead to the following hypothesis..
quote:[...]the North and South genetic clusters could result from separate migrations coming from Europe (mainly Portugal) and the West Coast of Africa, which then evolved in parallel before converging into a common cultural and social background.
We could be looking at a case here where we have an early African presence in cape verde, particularly on the big 4 Islands (excluding Fogo.) Starting from Santiago. The smaller Islands like Boa Vista could have been first occupied by Europeans (Hg R1b), but Santiago might have been the first island settled by the portugese. We know subjects were carried from, Santiago, to fogo, and then northward, which would explain the levels of founder, but the unique clustering (North vs. South & Fogo Santiago) adds a mysterious element.
...But again like I said, there was a lot that was glossed over, for a population that is 40%+ European, they tend to lack quite a bit of polymorphisms (recognized and to be expected in European pops), yet have such a high degree of diversity (Beleza et al. 2013). We need to see how well each Cape Verdean island population cluster with individual outside populations.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I posted on Beleza study several years ago. On ESR. I believe the title was "white west Afticans" or something like that. The paper first gave me the clue that light/white skin did NOT originate in Europe but in Africa. We are a continuum and not races according to Rosenberg et al. Now aDNA is confirming all of this. As I told Beyoku about 5years the clues will be in the DNA of Sardinians, Greeks etc. Transition points. Now it looks like these Cape Verde and Canary Islanders still harbor these "transition" populations. Mechta Aflou?
Gramps will know what I mean. I'm interested in what he has in terms archaeological evidence.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Good question. where is the archeological evidence. The genetic evidence does NOT seem to match the "historical" evidence as "told" by Europeans.
The researchers cannot explain through historical record what they are observing through genetics.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Xyyman. Archaeological evidence?
Notice there is a North to South cline. Notice also ONLY 500years of "European" colonization. Also Guinea-Bissau has the highest frequency of upstream clade of R-V88 and also has R1b-M269
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Any one reading this can tell the researchers are perplexed by these "Negroids" with white skin and green eyes. And at such high frequency. Even more than known admixed popualtions like Brazilians and AFRAMS.
Remnants of La Brana and incoming Neolithics?
Cape Verde Child [img [/img]
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
You are not following Lioness. It’s gradual transition that takes THOUSANDS!!!! Of years. I will irate my brothas but the evidence seems to point to that light skin is the natural state of humans(Mekova and Rees et al – “quote: removal of the constraint”. On the other hand we became humans because of pigmentation(blackness). Confusing?
@ Lioness you do know that some West Africans carry the “derived” form of the EDAR gene. Significance? You also do know that Europeans and African hair is very similar in relation to structure and thickness. Asians are on the extreme end.
Relethord et al – “SS Africans carry the most diverse pigmentation phenotype of all humans”.
Again. As I said before - “negros” are new. Why? “ Negros” around the world are NOT related to each other. They are more related to population to the North of them.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You are not following Lioness. It’s gradual transition that takes THOUSANDS!!!! Of years. I will irate my brothas but the evidence seems to point to that light skin is the natural state of humans(Mekova and Rees et al – “quote: removal of the constraint”. On the other hand we became humans because of pigmentation(blackness). Confusing?
@ Lioness you do know that some West Africans carry the “derived” form of the EDAR gene. Significance? You also do know that Europeans and African hair is very similar in relation to structure and thickness. Asians are on the extreme end.
Relethord et al – “SS Africans carry the most diverse pigmentation phenotype of all humans”.
Again. As I said before - “negros” are new. Why? “ Negros” around the world are NOT related to each other. They are more related to population to the North of them.
but as per bantus you said bantus are new
Posts: 42924 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Of course there are still some unanswered questions, like, why did Euroepans remain black for over 30,000years up to about 6000BC. The incoming agriculturist brougth in the white genes which is today virtual fixed in Europeans. So...as the OP stated, why are central Americans darker than North Americans? "The constraint has returned"? Mekova and Rees et al?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Of course there are still some unanswered questions, like, why did Euroepans remain black for over 30,000years up to about 6000BC. The incoming agriculturist brougth in the white genes which is today virtual fixed in Europeans. So...as the OP stated, why are central Americans darker than North Americans? "The constraint has returned"? Mekova and Rees et al?
So incoming R-M269 carriers, blue eyed agriculturalists from Guinea-Bissau went into Europe and in within 6,000 years their skin went pale, their hair straitened and went blond, their noses narrowed and lips shrunk, the ancestors of Donald Trump
Posts: 42924 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
No Lioness. I do not believe race exist, when I started about 10years ago on ES I did believe that. Of course being black I am cognitive of our plight and have some bias. But being open-minded and objective I cannot ignore the facts. Yes, E1b1a is new about 5-6Kyo, We also know some AEians were E1b1a. We know that R-V88 is upstream(also older) of R1b-M269. We know R1b-V88 has high freqiency ns "WEST" and North West Africa. We know Western Euroepans carry the Atlantic modal haplotype of R1b-M269 and NOT the Steppes version. We know "WEST" Europe carry highest frequency of the R1b-M269. We know aDNA from Ireland and Canary Islands carried R1b-M269.....BEFORE European colonization and BEFORE the apperance of Steppes nomads(lol!). Something was was obviously going on in the WEST.
See where the FACTS take you. Your response?
BTW - Guinea-Bissau carry low frequency of European mtDNA. IIRC traces of U and H. Significance?
REMEMBER I only state FACTS. Prove me wrong!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
As usual , misdirecting. SMH(insert sarcasm). I know your game.
You are not reading and/or listening.
The research has shown that light eyes already existed BEFORE light skin apppeared in Europe. Europeans are a mixture of TWO(or three) parental popualation - Lazaridis et al. WHG or paleolithic European apparently carried blue eyes and black skin - Lueza-Fox et al(sp?). African carried light skin before exiting Africa - Shriver et al. The new incoming migrants 6000years ago carried light skin Mathesion et al. I can go on and on and on. This is not rocket science.
One unanswered question is why R1b-M269 became so dominant and replaced yDNAG and E1b1b? E1b1b is still about 10-25% is come areas of Europe. But G virtually disappreaed. Is there a genetic advantage with R1b1ba2 "IN" Europe. The same applies to E1b1a in the SSA. Is there a genetic advantage "IN" SSA? Is it cultural/social? These TWO young markers vitually wiped-out older lineage in Europe and Africa. Were the women to blame? Davidski proposed a model I think made sense.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Of course there are still some unanswered questions, like, why did Euroepans remain black for over 30,000years up to about 6000BC. The incoming agriculturist brougth in the white genes which is today virtual fixed in Europeans. So...as the OP stated, why are central Americans darker than North Americans? "The constraint has returned"? Mekova and Rees et al?
So incoming R-M269 carriers, blue eyed agriculturalists from Guinea-Bissau went into Europe and in within 6,000 years their skin went pale, their hair straitened and went blond, their noses narrowed and lips shrunk, the ancestors of Donald Trump
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
There is no genetic advantage of Haplogroups Xyyman, It's the coding genes that'd carry the "advantages."
R1b probably become widespread due to the drop off of Carriers of other haplogroups, or sex biased reproduction.
Slc24a5, Slc45a2 & other pigmentation alleles became predominant... chances are a higher % of R1b pops carried these SNPs for pigmentation.
A similar thing for African populations, fixation for dark skin alleles follows the Bantu expansion, E1B1a pops were most likely predominantly homozygous for genes like MC1r.
...removal of constraint hypothesis was disproved many times over. And it should go without saying that it can not be relaxation....why? because we have a sudden sweep 6000 years ago in Europe.
Like I keep saying... Hipopigmentation to the level of Europeans was not advantageous, & it was no adaption. There's an element of chance that probably came into play (Rees et al), selection was probably limited due to an event which lead to a massive loss of genetic contribution, a bottleneck of some sort.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
| IP: Logged |
posted
can you quantify what you mean by light skin,are talking about Chris brown or like some yellowish white east Asia because when whites talk about light skin they're referring to themselves but during slavery a person 3/4 white 1/4 African was called colored and there complexion would be around a yellow brown on the upper end to a yellow white on the lower end.
Posts: 1123 | From: New York | Registered: Feb 2016
| IP: Logged |
Wide spread African light skin, would not be in the same spectrum as European. When I(we) refer to the former, in terms of phenotype, look at the lightest khosian individual.
also on the other end of the spectrum, when I speak of pigmented Europeans (from >6000ya), Their probably were as dark as an average peul or northern African American individual, they wouldn't be 'jet black.'
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
| IP: Logged |
posted
Correction: researchers haven't yet been able to QUANTIFY or correlate genes present with levels of pigmentation. We know it is most likely cumulative. Sturm/Duffy et al ? Ie the more derived SNPs present most likely the lighter in complexion. But that is NOT a fact. Within that context La Brana and Neanderthal would be extremely dark and NOT "Peul". I posted the upstream and downstreams SNPs from SLC24A5(rs**654?) etc. There is virtually no variation around that SNP location. Implying La Brana was very very dark. Modern West African show much more variation around that SNP. That is also an indication that Modern Africans did NOT get the light skin genes from Europeans because Europeans although dervied at the allele shows absolutely no variation.
So "Peul" is ...just speculation.
But I agree "darker' and "lighter" is all relative. We have no way of telling how dark La Brana was but if we go by the gene make up, based upon modern humans...he WAS jet black.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
But I agree "adrker' and "lighter" is all relative. We have no way of telling how dark La Brana was but if we go by the gene make up, based upon modern humans...he WAS jet black.
Remember that white area you pointed to on the pie chart by Beleza... remember what I said About active-basil melanogenesis...remember where was he found... Do you remember the dramatic [MI] range for those carrying ancestral pigment genes. Do you know/remember his purported Y-Hap? ...and lastly you do remember that He does have some derived alleles some involved in pigmentation.... Yeah, we have no way of telling how dark he was, but based on what I[we] know already a 'Jet black' phenotype should be "unlikely."
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
| IP: Logged |
Quote: "Slc24a5, Slc45a2 & other pigmentation alleles became predominant... chances are a higher % of R1b pops carried these SNPs for pigmentation"
Keep in mind the new farmers did NOT carry R1b but E1b1b and G. Sex bias reproduction seems logical but I am not convinced as yet. What advantage or attraction R1b has over E1b1b and G? Keeping in mind the "atttractive(sic)" eyes existed in the OLDER populations.
Quote: " fixation for dark skin alleles follows the Bantu expansion"
There is no such thing as the Bantu expansion. See my thread on ESR. Eastern "bantus" are not only OLDER than Western Bantus but their AIM haplotype is "different". One is not a subset of the other. Alleles for dark skin follow a latitudinal pattern and not a Bantu expansion pattern.
Quote: " removal of constraint hypothesis" see above
quote: "There's an element of chance that probably came into play" This I agree with but not in new Europeans but older Europeans(Paleolithic). It is quite probaly by mere "luck" or genetic "out-breeding" thantPaleelithic Europeans remained black although the constraint was relaxed. Why? Because ewe have to go back to my initial point. Pigmentation of East Asian, Andamans, Fiji Paupan etc. And also "Central " Americans.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Excuse me for working backwards here, bad habit I have , still read the newspaper that way when I do read one. Now responding to your comments from this post.
----- Quote :"GONCLAVES SEPARATED THE ARCHEPELAGO INTO TWO QUADRANTS, WHICH ARE SOMEWHAT IN ALIGNMENT WITH GENOMIC COMPONENTS BUT ITS WEIRD BECAUSE THE NORTHERN ISLANDS HAVE NEXT 3 HIGHEST DEGREE OF AFRICAN MALE PATERNAL ADMIXTURE?? ALSO THE Y-HAPLOGROUP DIVERSITY OF SANTIAGO (AND FOGO) ARE KINDA HIGH, A2, & EM33 AREN'T EVEN IN GUINEA-BASSU ACCORDING TO GONCLAVES BUT ARE ON THE ISLAND NOT TO MENTION ALL THE SUBCLADES OF E-M81. Genetic"
Quote: "the first island settled by the portugese. We know subjects were carried from, Santiago, to fogo, and then northward, which would explain the levels of founder, but the unique clustering (North vs. South & Fogo Santiago) adds a mysterious element."
Quote: ".But again like I said, there was a lot that was glossed over, for a population that is 40%+ European, they tend to lack quite a bit of polymorphisms (recognized and to be expected in European pops), yet have such a high degree of diversity (Beleza et al. 2013). We need to see how well each Cape Verdean island population cluster with individual outside populations." ---
Great analysis and observation. I too looked Fig 3 and was floored. There are more " European" Y DNA than SSA (E1b1a). I am glad I went back and looked at the data when I reread your point. Not only the subclades of E1b1b being present but the fascinating thing is MORE North African YDNA is present than Sub-Saharan.!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OLDER African lineage are present than the younger E1b1a. WOW!!!!!! I totally missed that.
These are not Chattel Slaves from "Ghana and Nigeria" but these are North Africans. Lol!!!!!! So calling these peole SSA is misleading?
Swenet ...mechta Aflou?
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
So, we are back to Europeans and their lies and their deception. The data tells a different story than the writeup. Less than 23%(18%) of the male lineage are from Sub-Saharan Africans. I would like to see the AIM/SNP and Cluster charts of Cape Verde with Ancient Europeans and ancient North Africans. Man, If I had those genetic tools/software.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
{"--Slc24a5, Slc45a2 & other pigmentation alleles became predominant... chances are a higher % of R1b pops carried a combination of these SNPs for pigmentation at the time [...]"}
...is what I should have said...but also keep in mind slc24a5 didn't come with new farmers either, though they did carry it, so did the other two purported European ancestral groups, & Slc45A2 is up for grabs.
" What advantage or attraction R1b has over E1b1b and G? Keeping in mind the "atttractive(sic)" eyes existed in the OLDER populations" ...Availability! I'm not certain Sex biased selection was the case. But if we spontaneously lose a lot of male G, C and E carriers and have a bunch of R carriers with a ratio of like 1:1:3:7 respectively, naturally we'd end up with what we have in Europe. (Not saying that that WAS the case, just a possibility.)
"This I agree with but not in new Europeans but older Europeans(Paleolithic). It is quite probably by mere "luck" or genetic "out-breeding" thantPaleelithic Europeans remained black although the constraint" nah man, for one we're talking about a span of 60,000 years! you can't assume they ignored selective pressure for 60,000 years by chance... From how I see it, there was no pressure to change in the first place. Darker skinned people don't have to evolve to survive colder, & less UV intense environments when they simply have the mechanisms to adapt (see my explanations on pg.1) Also... with the exception of the East Asians and European groups, We do see relaxation! look at Malick 2013, even with the pressure for lightening in India due to the historically documented implementation of the Caste system, the Indians show only faint signs of positive selection, you can see what relxation would have looked like in the North-east, Central and Southern populations of India.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Swenet ...mechta Aflou?
I think you're close with some of the things you're saying in regards to Africa and Iberia and Europe. But I think we disagree on the details. You think the involved lineages are La Braña-like while I think they were L lineages. You think La Braña is prime example of such an African presence in Europe. While I think that La Braña had small amounts of African ancestry, I think populations like Muge had much more African ancestry—perhaps including also the African ancestry that is in La Braña.
I'm really big on archaeology nowadays.
More coming soon.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ok. So much for selective picture spamming. But get the picture.(pun intended)
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Crackpot black supremacist IDK your motivations nor do I care, so I'm not 100% sure if its your pattern of thinking or if its your agenda to reason so linearly. Get your head out of box my friend.
My point was to falsify Xyman's bizarre statement "Up to 4000BC most Europeans were black" when they weren't.
La Brana 1
This isn't black, but a lighter brown; these Mesolithic specimens like La Brana 1 are known to have had derived ASIP, IRF4 or KITLG involved in skin lightening. Like I said, La Brana 1 looks considerably lighter than an actual black person, like say, Robert Mugabe.
Your model is too simplistic. "all mutations are African". Things are more complicated, they don't fit the strictest of OOA model that Afrocentrics cling to.
I guess your nightmare is the recent evidence of adaptive introgression:
"BNC2 seems to be a strong candidate for adaptive introgression, as shown in two genome-wide archaic ancestry analyses. Sankararaman et al.applied the CRF model to detect introgressed segments, and then inferred selection based on departures from a null model of neutrally introgressed alleles. Vernot and Akey23 also found the introgressed region using S*, then confirmed its ancestry by matching it with the Neanderthal genome, and finally inferred selection by observing that the region has high differentiation between Europeans and Asians, as measured by FST. A BNC2 SNP is associated with skin pigmentation76 and freckling in Europeans77, and the archaic haplotype is present at 70% frequency in Europeans, while it is absent in Asians." (Racimo et al. 2015)
Posts: 949 | From: England | Registered: Oct 2015
| IP: Logged |
posted
SMH. Gave up on SLC24A5 now he choses ANOTHER gene. from supposed Neanderthal introgression.
You need to find out if AFRICANS not Asian carry the freckling gene. lol!
Quote from Davidski the racialist blogger. The aDNA is proving racialist WRONG. lol! HA! HA! Euroepans are depigmented Africans.
QUOTE "Blogger Davidski said... Yeah, not much chance that H1 and H3 are European.
February 13, 2017 at 10:30 PM"
QUOTE: "Blogger Annie Mouse said... @Samuel
We dont know all the paleoeuropean populations yet I think. Too many holes.
I favour the North African origin for H1 and H3. The facts fit (paleolithic presence, pattern of expansion from Iberia, absence from the Near East etc) and the first Bell Beakers are associated with North Africa (archaeologically/culturally).
February 14, 2017 at 12:08 PM"
quote: " IIRC early work on La Brana suggested Iberian HG had no more Basal Eurasian than Loschbour, throwing doubt on any connection between S Europe and Near East prior to Neolithic. "
Seems people are catching on. Ha!
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Cameroon per google. Can't authenticate. But obviously found throughout Africa
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Quote from Davidski the racialist blogger. The aDNA is proving racialist WRONG. lol! HA! HA! Euroepans are depigmented Africans.
QUOTE "Blogger Davidski said... Yeah, not much chance that H1 and H3 are European.
February 13, 2017 at 10:30 PM"
QUOTE: "Blogger Annie Mouse said... @Samuel
We dont know all the paleoeuropean populations yet I think. Too many holes.
I favour the North African origin for H1 and H3. The facts fit (paleolithic presence, pattern of expansion from Iberia, absence from the Near East etc) and the first Bell Beakers are associated with North Africa (archaeologically/culturally).
February 14, 2017 at 12:08 PM"
quote: " IIRC early work on La Brana suggested Iberian HG had no more Basal Eurasian than Loschbour, throwing doubt on any connection between S Europe and Near East prior to Neolithic. "
Seems people are catching on. Ha! [/QB]
If H is North African why are you posting pictures of people from Cameroon, people who have low or no frequencies of H as opposed to berbers who do have high frequencies of H?
If modern Europeans have straight hair and hair takes longer than skin color to change why are you posting people from Cameroon?
If the high frequency clade of R of some Cameroonians is V88 but that clade is extremely rare in Europe why are you posting pictures of Cameroonians?
If the age of R-V88 is 9200–5600 kya but haplogroup R is 27,000 years old then why are you posting pictures of Cameroonians?
If R1b1a2 (R-V88) is far downstream of
R1b1a1a2 (M269) according to ISOGG 2017 then why are you saying R-V88 is upstream?
quote: Trofimova et al. (2015) found a surprising high frequency of R1b-L23 (Z2105/2103) among the peoples of the Idel-Ural. 21 out of 58 (36.2%) of Burzyansky District Bashkirs, 11 out of 52 (21.2%) of Udmurts, 4 out of 50 (8%) of Komi, 4 out of 59 (6.8%) of Mordvins, 2 out of 53 (3.8%) of Besermyan and 1 out of 43 (2.3%) of Chuvash were R1b-L23 (Z2105/2103),[41] the type of R1b found in the recently analyzed Yamna remains of the Samara Oblast and Orenburg Oblast
^^^ If the Yamna steppe were R1b-L23, a form of M269 that the above modern Russian groups carry some then why are you posting Cameroonians who have a whole different clade, R-V88 ?
Posts: 42924 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
"You can fool some of the people some of the time but not all the people all the time" - Peter Tosh Jamaican reggae artist(Album Down Presser(Oppressor) Man)
Or how did Bush mess it up....."....fool me once and you can't fool me again"
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
Quote: "Availability! I'm not certain Sex biased selection was the case. But if we spontaneously lose a lot of male G, C and E carriers and have a bunch of R carriers with a ratio of like 1:1:3:7 respectively"
Quote: "even with the pressure for lightening in India due to the historically documented implementation of the Caste system, the Indians show only faint signs of positive selection, you can see what relaxation would have looked like in the North-east, Central and Southern populations of India."
I don’t' follow you logic on these:
1. to get to 1:1:3:7 you have to get to 1:1:3:7. What do I mean? It did not start off with that ratio. Up to the mid-Neolithic to the early bronze age R1b-M269 was non-existent in Europe. So something happened to swing the pendulum in their favor to create that ratio. In other words R1b-M269 was NOT present so ...NO availability . So was it by chance? I don't think so.
2. India is an interest testing ground. In fact if you look at India it shades of blackness follow the latitudinal cline just as Africa/Europe and the same pigmentation genes are involved(sources cited). I always question "documented" history written 2000years ago. The mtDNA make up of India is primary mtDNA M and subclades of the major haplogroup N. But keep in mind the H and U sub-clades are DIFFERENT to Europeans. H1 and H3 is primarily West European while the other H's are found in Arabia and West Asia. And there is a decrease from West to East in Central Asia. Isolation by distance. How do you explain the scenario? The same thing happened in Pakistan/India as with Africa/Europe.(Sergi was correct). Remember non-African ancestry increases with distance FROM Africa. And as you know non-African does not really mean "NOT found in Africa" , it only means less frequency IN Africa.
So what does this all mean?. Same group of Neolithic's that moved into Southern Europe also moved into Northern India ...via probable a Caucasus route. Keeping in mind the Dravidians although look like modern Africans are not closely genetically related.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
I just remember when I looked up the paper I did a break down several years ago also. Believe me. I have covered all this stuff.
Quote from Malick et al.
" However, the latter also shows additional evidence of selection in populations of the Middle East, Central Asia, Pakistan and North India but not in South India." "Individuals worldwide reveals that the rs1426654-A alleles in South Asian and West Eurasian populations are monophyletic and occur on the background of a common haplotype that is characterized by low genetic diversity" " We date the coalescence of the light skin associated allele at 22–28 KYA" ---------------- What does the above mean? First, the dating of the mutation is wrong, we know that now. Second, As I stated above frequency of the derived alleles can indicate the migration route. It was NOT through the Dravidian population of southern India. Third, the data agrees with the data from the La Brana paper. The regions around SLC24A5 has low diversity compared to Africans. Indicative of a "selective" or "purification process". To me the purification is the "removal of constraint". It cannot be preferential selection because as you said. Intermarry between Caste has little impact.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
BTW - it is refreshing to have someone on this site who has a handle on what these things mean and understand what is being discussed. Whether you are black or white.
Also. To those who are following the discussion. Why do I conclude the migration of SLC24A5 overland via central Asia? And why the Dravidian or southern Indians remained darkly pigmented. Simply! Malick et al Fig2. There is a 'LONGITUDINAL' cline unlike Europe/Africa which has a latitudinal cline. Pakistan seems to be where the "barrier" exist. Notice this is a "hotspot' in Northern India which disrupts the trend. This pattern is unnatural therefore "preferentially selection" as in the Caste System?
If I am a betting man my money is mtDNA H in Asia will follow the same latitudinal cline and that "hotspot" in Northern India will have a high frequency of mtDNA H (xH1 and H3).
The barrier seems to be right at the Indus/Harrapan valley(Sergi). Significance?
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Genetics has all the answers. Sergi and Lucas Martin (RIP) is being proven correct.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
A little to technical for me but are you saying whites aren't suppose completely white as there was no benefit and even if you account on a preference the genetic makeup is what its really suppose to be.
Posts: 1123 | From: New York | Registered: Feb 2016
| IP: Logged |
posted
@Xyyman "to get to 1:1:3:7 you have to get to 1:1:3:7. What do I mean? It did not start off with that ratio. Up to the mid-Neolithic to the early bronze age R1b-M269 was non-existent in Europe. So something happened to swing the pendulum in their favor to create that ratio."
-I Agree
In other words R1b-M269 was NOT present so ...NO availability . So was it by chance? I don't think so.
- Your losing your sense of scale, remember I stated that if around 7000-6000ya... [quote: "we SPONTANEOUSLY lose a lot of male G, C and E carriers and have a bunch of R carriers with a ratio of like 1:1:3:7 respectively[...]"] The operative word being "Spontaneous." It doesn't really matter when R was introduced, It's just about the ratio of admixture post-catastrophe or w/e... I do believe this is where we disagree for now though, I see no better explanation at the moment, All I know is that A LOT of genetic variation was lost rapidly in Ancient Europe, the proportion or the end result wasn't engineered by evolution or adaptation, there's no evidence of that besides signals of strong selection, which combats the theory that their phenotype was achieved through relaxation aka removal of constraint.
But I do like most of what you're saying about India in relation. It actually wen't over my head when I was reading Malicks paper that introduction of related haplogroups and other non pigment related genes were probably introduced to India much later along with slc25a2. What you're saying seems on the money, However, I personally don't have enough info on Indian history to challenge or verify assertions about the cultural implications on their genome. HOWEVER, I don't think you realized, the area not influenced by selection for lightening is exactly what Europe would look like under relaxation... India - the Caste = Removal of constraint.
@Thereal Cant' speak for anyone else, but that's what I'm saying. (If I'm reading your question correctly) The problem with my position though, is East Asians... Saying that a population developed such a dynamic trait by chance is one thing, but it happened twice on two separate continents under seemingly "similar" pressures. But when we dig deeper, the evidence becomes too overwhelming in favor of my position. We just can't seem to grasp that last nail to hammer into the coffin though. I strongly believe that certain discoveries of history were either omitted or delayed.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
[/img]
Printer-friendly view of this topic