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Author Topic: White Europeans speak about black Europeans
the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Elmaestro:
the non African origin of slc24a5 mutation is dead whether or not C11 arose in Africa.


What is the significance of that?

Why are there multi millions of light skinned people in the Northern hemisphere but not in Africa?

How did the light skin occur there?

xyyman says that slc24a5 in Africa means that Europeans are depigmented Africans that their ancestors lived in Africa 10,000 years ago or less and are more African than they are Central Asian, middle Eastern or descendants of the first Europeans . Do you agree with this? He's been saying this for a few years now, that the modern white European's immediate primary ancestors where Africans who crossed the Strait of Gibralter

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Elmaestro
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Most of your questions you can answer if you ask yourself, or were already explained on pages 1 and 2. but in regards to this.

quote:
"xyyman says that slc24a5 in Africa means that Europeans are depigmented Africans that their ancestors lived in Africa 10,000 years ago or less and are more African than they are Central Asian, middle Eastern or descendants of the first Europeans . Do you agree with this? He's been saying this for a few years now, that the modern white European's immediate primary ancestors where Africans who crossed the Strait of Gibralter"
quote:
Me Pg.2:
There's an actual chance we might be looking at genes falsely attributed to Eurasian admixture, which is why I often show interest in topics speaking of neanderthal admixture and AMH pigment.

If somehow Xyyman is partially right, it'll blow the top of of some theories and how we understand history. though I don't really agree 1:1 with his hypothesis, particularly a displacement of "colored" europeans by contemporaneous depigmented Africans, which seems "unlikely," to put it kindly...
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Elmaestro:

I don't really agree 1:1 with his hypothesis, particularly a displacement of "colored" europeans by contemporaneous depigmented Africans, which seems "unlikely," to put it kindly...

 -

About 40% of all maternal lineages in Europe belong to haplogroup H.
Do you agree with the xyymian theory that the maternal ancestors of at least 40% of modern Europeans are berbers who introduced haplogroup H to Europe by crossing the Strait of Gibraltar?

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Elmaestro
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stop instigating...
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Elmaestro:
stop instigating...

I'm not instigating I'm giving you xyyman teachings
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Swenet
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Speaking of gramps. Where did he go? He was all over this thread a little while ago. Back to the drawing board.. after all?
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the lioness,
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what a minute, we need to check this link to see if there are some xyyman supporters around:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzN3yJXlWrg

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Swenet
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^I don't understand why Xyyman is so reluctant to patch the loopholes in his hypotheses. Its almost like he's proud of them. Blonde haired Africans are remnants of a La Brana-like population when the latter wasn't even blonde? We have to do better than that.
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Ish Geber
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On that note.

quote:
Figure 2 | Ancestral variants around the SLC45A2 (rs16891982, above) and SLC24A5 (rs1426654, below) pigmentation genes in the Mesolithic genome.

 -

The SNPs around the two diagnostic variants (red arrows) in these two genes were analysed. The resulting haplotype
comprises neighbouring SNPs that are also absent in modern Europeans (CEU) (n = 112) but present in Yorubans (YRI) (n = 113)
. This pattern confirms that the La Braña 1 sample is older than the positive-selection event in these regions. Blue, ancestral; red, derived.


--Carles Lalueza-Fox

Nature 507, 225–228 (13 March 2014) doi:10.1038/nature12960


quote:
"However, the biggest surprise was to discover that this individual possessed African versions in the genes that determine the light pigmentation of the current Europeans, which indicates that he had dark skin, although we can not know the exact shade."
--Lalueza-Fox

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140126134643.htm%C2%A0

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xyyman
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Looks like the blogger Davidski has his hands full. lol!!


People are catching on.....He! HE! HE! The delusion is coming to an end!

-----
QUOTES

Science has an open access feature on the paper, with a couple of quotes from David Anthony.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/02/thousands-horsemen-may-have-swept-bronze-age-europe-transforming-local-population

February 21, 2017 at 3:45 PM
Blogger Romulus said...
so it's just a bunch of regurgitation? no aDNA?

February 21, 2017 at 4:34 PM
Blogger Romulus said...
Similarly, Haak et al. (5) provide evidence that R1a and R1b were rare in central Europe before ∼4,500 y ago


BUUUUULLĹLLLLSSSHHHHHIIIIIIIITTTT

February 21, 2017 at 4:45 PM
Blogger Davidski said...
You think R1a and R1b weren't rare in Central Europe before ∼4,500 YBP? How'd you work that out?

February 21, 2017 at 4:49 PM
Blogger Romulus said...
Villabruna, Latvia, Neolithic Spain.

February 21, 2017 at 4:55 PM
Blogger Romulus said...
To think R1b expanded all the way to Italy from Cental Asia in 12,000 BC but somehow never made it further west than Latvia takes a total moron.

February 21, 2017 at 4:58 PM
Blogger Davidski said...
Obviously Latvia is not located in Central Europe.

The other two confirmed ancient R1b samples are from Southern Europe, not Central Europe, and they don't look relevant to the rapid expansion of R1b-M269 during the Bronze Age.

February 21, 2017 at 5:00 PM
Blogger Romulus said...
So it just so happens we hit the 1 in a trillion chance and sampled the Leos and Clark of the Mesolithic in Latvia? You are fully stupid. For these samples to be outliers is a statistical impossbility amd you can be guaranteed it was everywhere in a massive radius. Western European R1b is not from Yamnaya PERIOD.

February 21, 2017 at 5:08 PM
Blogger a said...
Blogger Romulus said...

"M269 is not fom the Yamnaya. Or the "West Yamnaya" or the "East Yamnaya" or the "Purple Yamnaya" or the Shmanaya or the Pamnaya or my asshole or your asshole or any asshole no matter how many assholes Anthony looks in or writes about."

Instead of posting negatives; maybe you would like to explain from where \m269 is from?

February 21, 2017 at 5:16 PM
Blogger Romulus said...
Any statement on that would be speculation, so why bother? What we can say for a fact is that it isn't from the Yamnaya. The Yamnaya are an extremely well sampled group in their geographical region and in their epoch. They are uniformly downstream from M269. The only modern people who trace their paternal lineage to them inhabit that same geographical horizon.

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xyyman
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Thanks Ish. Didn't have the time to dig this up.

quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
On that note.

quote:
Figure 2 | Ancestral variants around the SLC45A2 (rs16891982, above) and SLC24A5 (rs1426654, below) pigmentation genes in the Mesolithic genome.

 -

The SNPs around the two diagnostic variants (red arrows) in these two genes were analysed. The resulting haplotype
comprises neighbouring SNPs that are also absent in modern Europeans (CEU) (n = 112) but present in Yorubans (YRI) (n = 113)
. This pattern confirms that the La Braña 1 sample is older than the positive-selection event in these regions. Blue, ancestral; red, derived.


--Carles Lalueza-Fox

Nature 507, 225–228 (13 March 2014) doi:10.1038/nature12960


quote:
"However, the biggest surprise was to discover that this individual possessed African versions in the genes that determine the light pigmentation of the current Europeans, which indicates that he had dark skin, although we can not know the exact shade."
--Lalueza-Fox

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140126134643.htm%C2%A0


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xyyman
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Notice the Romulus dude did not speculate where R1b-M269 originated. Why? Fear. Typical white people. Fear of being from Africa. Lol! But he is certain Western Europeans males are NOT from the Steppes. Southern Europe? Nope. Not according to Busby et al(insert sarcasm). "no latitudinal cline" but removes the data from his paper. Tsk! Tsk! Europeans!
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xyyman
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I got a life. This is a hobby.... :D

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
Speaking of gramps. Where did he go? He was all over this thread a little while ago. Back to the drawing board.. after all?


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xyyman
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You got it. Also Tunisia/Sardinia and Egypt/Greece/Levant.

I have been proven correct times over. Of Note mtDNa H is now being speculated as African NOT Middle Eastern, etc. The last piece of the puzzle is R1b-M269 and guess what. I am slowly being proven correct there also.

You don't have to believe me. Intelligent people are catching on. Search the web. I am way ahead of the game. lol!

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Elmaestro:
the non African origin of slc24a5 mutation is dead whether or not C11 arose in Africa.


What is the significance of that?

Why are there multi millions of light skinned people in the Northern hemisphere but not in Africa?

How did the light skin occur there?

xyyman says that slc24a5 in Africa means that Europeans are depigmented Africans that their ancestors lived in Africa 10,000 years ago or less and are more African than they are Central Asian, middle Eastern or descendants of the first Europeans . Do you agree with this? He's been saying this for a few years now, that the modern white European's immediate primary ancestors where Africans who crossed the Strait of Gibralter


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xyyman
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You are usually much better at spinning BS. this is no good. Stop misconstruing what I am saying. lol!

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
^I don't understand why Xyyman is so reluctant to patch the loopholes in his hypotheses. Its almost like he's proud of them. Blonde haired Africans are remnants of a La Brana-like population when the latter wasn't even blonde? We have to do better than that.


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xyyman
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Late to the party......but as I said I broke down the C11 haplotype many years ago.
http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/1578/hocus-razzle-dazzle-african-origin

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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I am so good sometimes I surprise myself. I take back what said about some haplotypes originated OUTSIDE of Africa but in East Asia. It seems like C3 and C10 is Also African See page 1 of my break down. I did this several years ago so I forgot the details. LWK and MKK(2 EAST African population!!!!) carry these two haplotypes albeit at low frequency. Of course these two haplotypes are absent in Europeans. So unless Japanese or Chinese back-migrated to the hills of Kenya my money is on an African origin of these two haplotypes. Isolation by distance is very clear.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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To the newbies. You have to forget what you learned. Forget the visuals, forget what your perception of what an African looks like or a European should look like. Follow the genetic data, follow the science. Forget the modern visuals. The data don't lie. There is no deny modern Europeans are depigmented Africans. That is undeniable. That is clear now. So the follow-up question is can humans morph that quickly? Can humans adapt to their environment in such a short space of time? And why? Does the environment change the genes or the genes adapt to the environment?

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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I assume you have a statistical back ground And you are speaking probability. In other words you are saying, taken together, it is very unlikely the mutation(s) occurred OUTSIDE Africa. I take a much simpler approach. “highest diverisyt” = Origin.

Quote: “please explain how that can occur using your rudimentary calculations...”

?? calculation of linkage? I don’t follow. LD is what it is. The loci CANNOT be separated. Where does the calculation come in. I understand all this is theoretical. Since LD is speculation and in some instance may not be provable.


quote: “[LD] insinuates association of different loci, but anyone with sense would know I was referring to the calculation of linkage in general”

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] To the newbies. You have to forget what you learned. Forget the visuals, forget what your perception of what an African looks like or a European should look like. Follow the genetic data, follow the science. Forget the modern visuals. The data don't lie. There is no deny modern Europeans are depigmented Africans.

 -

 -


So are the Siwa the most likely immediate ancestors to Europeans?
The Tuareg?

You don't really have much until you can point to a region or regions in Africa that have high frequencies or diversity of haplogroups common to Europeans and place them as candidates for the immediate ancestors of modern Europeans.
t can't be kept just as an abstract political concept

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There was no Neolithic revolution in Africa, it came from West Asia. Even most agriculture in Egypt derived from Levant (no scholar disputes this). So Xyman's argument Europeans are "Neolithic African" who introduced farming etc., makes zero sense. There was no migration into Europe from Africa at that time. As others pointed out xyman has no backing from archaeology, he expects people to believe there was population settlement of Europe from Africa during Neolithic, yet those African migrants conveniently didn't leave behind any of their tools or culture.... and don't forget these same African migrants introduced agriculture to Europe, but not Africa itself (since agriculture and domestication there primarily derived from Levant). Would make a great fiction novel.
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xyyman
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Yo! You are in the wrong forum section. Try the next one over. We back up what we say here with data and facts not dogmatic rhetoricals. Please.


quote:
Originally posted by JoshuaConnerMoon:
There was no Neolithic revolution in Africa, it came from West Asia. Even most agriculture in Egypt derived from Levant (no scholar disputes this). So Xyman's argument Europeans are "Neolithic African" who introduced farming etc., makes zero sense. There was no migration into Europe from Africa at that time. As others pointed out xyman has no backing from archaeology, he expects people to believe there was population settlement of Europe from Africa during Neolithic, yet those African migrants conveniently didn't leave behind any of their tools or culture.... and don't forget these same African migrants introduced agriculture to Europe, but not Africa itself (since agriculture and domestication there primarily derived from Levant). Would make a great fiction novel.


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xyyman
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" just as an abstract political concept" ...nice!

--------------------
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Elmaestro
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@ XyyMan I was referring to Swenet in that quote... see the following.

quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
On that note.

quote:
Figure 2 | Ancestral variants around the SLC45A2 (rs16891982, above) and SLC24A5 (rs1426654, below) pigmentation genes in the Mesolithic genome.

 -

The SNPs around the two diagnostic variants (red arrows) in these two genes were analysed. The resulting haplotype
comprises neighbouring SNPs that are also absent in modern Europeans (CEU) (n = 112) but present in Yorubans (YRI) (n = 113)
. This pattern confirms that the La Braña 1 sample is older than the positive-selection event in these regions. Blue, ancestral; red, derived.


--Carles Lalueza-Fox

Nature 507, 225–228 (13 March 2014) doi:10.1038/nature12960


I don't think all realized how significant this post is at this period, in this very thread. Not to reopen old wounds but for the benefit of readership.
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by JoshuaConnerMoon:
There was no Neolithic revolution in Africa, it came from West Asia. Even most agriculture in Egypt derived from Levant (no scholar disputes this). So Xyman's argument Europeans are "Neolithic African" who introduced farming etc., makes zero sense. There was no migration into Europe from Africa at that time. As others pointed out xyman has no backing from archaeology, he expects people to believe there was population settlement of Europe from Africa during Neolithic, yet those African migrants conveniently didn't leave behind any of their tools or culture.... and don't forget these same African migrants introduced agriculture to Europe, but not Africa itself (since agriculture and domestication there primarily derived from Levant). Would make a great fiction novel.

"There was no Neolithic revolution in Africa,"

What have you been smoking?

"Even most agriculture in Egypt derived from Levant (no scholar disputes this)."

These people were an extent from Africans from the Sudan region.

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Elmaestro
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by JoshuaConnerMoon:
There was no Neolithic revolution in Africa, it came from West Asia. Even most agriculture in Egypt derived from Levant (no scholar disputes this). So Xyman's argument Europeans are "Neolithic African" who introduced farming etc., makes zero sense. There was no migration into Europe from Africa at that time. As others pointed out xyman has no backing from archaeology, he expects people to believe there was population settlement of Europe from Africa during Neolithic, yet those African migrants conveniently didn't leave behind any of their tools or culture.... and don't forget these same African migrants introduced agriculture to Europe, but not Africa itself (since agriculture and domestication there primarily derived from Levant). Would make a great fiction novel.

"There was no Neolithic revolution in Africa,"

What have you been smoking?

"Even most agriculture in Egypt derived from Levant (no scholar disputes this)."

These people were an extent from Africans from the Sudan region.

Ish please don't give him reason to derail another thread, take it elsewhere.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
" just as an abstract political concept" ...nice!

Yes it's an abstraction until you can point to a place in Africa that would be most likely to have people who most closely resemble genetically, the ancestors of modern Europeans.
If you can't to that you are just blowing hot air and trying to attract attention by being controversial for it's own sake. It's time to get down to the nitty and the gritty

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Elmaestro:
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by JoshuaConnerMoon:
There was no Neolithic revolution in Africa, it came from West Asia. Even most agriculture in Egypt derived from Levant (no scholar disputes this). So Xyman's argument Europeans are "Neolithic African" who introduced farming etc., makes zero sense. There was no migration into Europe from Africa at that time. As others pointed out xyman has no backing from archaeology, he expects people to believe there was population settlement of Europe from Africa during Neolithic, yet those African migrants conveniently didn't leave behind any of their tools or culture.... and don't forget these same African migrants introduced agriculture to Europe, but not Africa itself (since agriculture and domestication there primarily derived from Levant). Would make a great fiction novel.

"There was no Neolithic revolution in Africa,"

What have you been smoking?

"Even most agriculture in Egypt derived from Levant (no scholar disputes this)."

These people were an extent from Africans from the Sudan region.

Ish please don't give him reason to derail another thread, take it elsewhere.
Okay. But I had to get it out of my system. [Big Grin]

Don't know if this has been posted here already?

Original post is by Zarahan:


quote:
"Based on diagnostic SNPs, she had dark, black hair and brown eyes (see Supplementary). She lacked the derived variant (rs16891982) of the SLC45A2 gene associated with light skin pigmentation but had at least one copy of the derived SLC24A5 allele (rs1426654) associated with the same trait. The derived SLC24A5 variant has been found in both Neolithic farmer and Caucasus hunter)gatherer groups (5, 21, 26)suggesting that it was already at appreciable frequency before these populations diverged. Finally, she did not have the most common European variant of the LCT gene (rs4988235) associated with the ability to digest raw milk, consistent with the later emergence of this adaptation (5, 21, 23). "
--Llorente et al 2016. The genetics of an early Neolithic pastoralist from the Zagros.
Biorxiv preprint 2016

 -
http://tudasbazis.sulinet.hu/hu/tarsadalomtudomanyok/tortenelem/eletmodtortenet-oskor-es-okor/ritusok-a-korai-termelo-kulturakban/gimszarvasvadaszatot-abrazolo-festmeny-catal-huyuk -i-e-5800-k

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] To the newbies. You have to forget what you learned. Forget the visuals, forget what your perception of what an African looks like or a European should look like. Follow the genetic data, follow the science. Forget the modern visuals. The data don't lie. There is no deny modern Europeans are depigmented Africans.

 -

 -


So are the Siwa the most likely immediate ancestors to Europeans?
The Tuareg?

You don't really have much until you can point to a region or regions in Africa that have high frequencies or diversity of haplogroups common to Europeans and place them as candidates for the immediate ancestors of modern Europeans.
t can't be kept just as an abstract political concept

Both regions are considered the exit / extend, it is likely that both are candidates, since both are old the these regions.
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
There is no deny modern Europeans are depigmented Africans. That is undeniable. That is clear now. So the follow-up question is can humans morph that quickly?

quote:


Outside central Africa, haplogroup R-V88 was only observed in Afroasiatic-speaking populations from northern Africa, with frequencies ranging from 0.3% in Morocco, to 3.0% in Algeria, and to 11.5% in Egypt, where a particularly high frequency (26.9%) was observed among the Berbers from the Siwa Oasis.

--2010 Jan 6. doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2009.231
Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages

Fulvio Cruciani,


I had posted a DNA chart for the Siwa but now remember that R-V88 had not been discovered in 2007, the time of the source data there.
Later in 2010, Cruciani identified R-V88 as the R1b clade in Siwans

So forget the Siwans for modern Europeans ancestors yes you can find the high H frequencies but their R is the African clade r-V88 not the European clade M269.
And you can't even go to the high R-V88 frequencies in Cameroon and find corresponding mtDNA H, they are L carriers

as per M269, it reaches over 80% in France, Basque Spain, Ireland and Wales (Wales 92%)

Comparatively the highest frequencies in Africa of R-M269 are in Tunis 7.2% and Algiers 6.5%

As per the H frequencies I posted earlier Tunisians are 10.6% H1 carriers.

So, so far Tunisians are the best candidates for xyyman's theory that Africans are the immediate ancestors of modern Europeans, berbers in this case

Now it's interesting historically because Tunisia is the very spot where during the 5th and 6th centuries (from 430 to 533 AD), the Germanic Vandals invaded and ruled over a kingdom in North Africa that included present-day Tripoli

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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Does the environment change the genes or the genes adapt to the environment?

neither. At every movement humans are randomly mutating on a tiny scale. The process starts in random variation. These are normal mutations, such small differences you would nto notice it for generations.
The offspring of a given set of parents to not all look exactly the same even if of the same gender. So in a thick rainforest people who mutated a tiny bit taller, on average might be at a disadvantage over shorter people. So if the shorter people can move through that forest more easily more of them might survive
Over thousands of years certain traits start to accumulate as per having a slightly better survival advantage.
Other traits which were an advantage in on environment may start to diminish if they are not an advantage. So the result of this selection process is a combination of advantage traits and a drop off of old traits which are no longer an advantage.
So some of the change is an advantage or a trait that diminishes but is not necessarily a disadvantage just not needed in a new environment

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
There is no deny modern Europeans are depigmented Africans. That is undeniable. That is clear now. So the follow-up question is can humans morph that quickly?

quote:


Outside central Africa, haplogroup R-V88 was only observed in Afroasiatic-speaking populations from northern Africa, with frequencies ranging from 0.3% in Morocco, to 3.0% in Algeria, and to 11.5% in Egypt, where a particularly high frequency (26.9%) was observed among the Berbers from the Siwa Oasis.

--2010 Jan 6. doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2009.231
Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages

Fulvio Cruciani,


…remember that R-V88 had not been discovered in 2007…

I wonder if that is actually truly the case. Could it be the data was not stable enough?


quote:


Haplogroup A1b. The P114 mutation, which defines haplogroup A1b according to Karafet et al. [14], had been detected in central-western Africa at very low frequencies (in total, three chromosomes from Cameroon) [16,19].

[...]

‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups. All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14]. In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome. Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1). [/b] Six haplogroup C chromosomes (samples 34–39 in Table S1) were analyzed for the eleven haplogroup C- specific mutations [16] and for SNPs defining branches C1 to C6 in the tree by Karafet et al. [14] (Figure S1). Through this analysis we identified a chromosome from southern Europe as a new deep branch within haplogroup C (C-V20 or C7, Figure S1). Previously, only a few examples of C chromosomes (only defined by the marker RPS4Y711) had been found in southern Europe [32,33]. To improve our knowledge regarding the distribution of haplogroup C in Europe, we surveyed 1965 European subjects for the mutation RPS4Y711 and identified one additional haplogroup C chromosome from southern Europe, which has also been classified as C7 (data not shown). Further studies are needed to establish whether C7 chromosomes are the relics of an ancient European gene pool or the signal of a recent geographical spread from Asia. Two mutations, V248 and V87, which had never been previously described, were found to be specific to haplogroups C2 and C3, respectively (Figure S1). Three of the seven R-specific mutations (V45, V69 and V88) were previously mapped within haplogroup R [34], whereas the remaining four mutations have been here positioned at the root of haplogroups F (V186 and V205), K (V104) and P (V231) (Figure S1) through the analysis of 12 haplogroup F samples (samples 40–51, in Table S1).

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?type=supplementary&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0049170.s001

[...]

Supporting Information

Figure S1 Structure of the macro-haplogroup CT. For details on mutations see legend to Figure 1. Dashed lines indicate putative branchings (no positive control available). The position of V248 (haplogroup C2) and V87 (haplogroup C3) compared to mutations that define internal branches was not determined. Note that mutations V45, V69 and V88 have been previously mapped (Cruciani et al. 2010; Eur J Hum Genet 18:800–807).
(TIF)

—Rosaria Scozzari, Fulvio Cruciani et al.

Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree

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Just in case you missed it.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009587

there are many more.


quote:
Originally posted by JoshuaConnerMoon:
There was no Neolithic revolution in Africa, it came from West Asia. Even most agriculture in Egypt derived from Levant (no scholar disputes this). So Xyman's argument Europeans are "Neolithic African" who introduced farming etc., makes zero sense. There was no migration into Europe from Africa at that time. As others pointed out xyman has no backing from archaeology, he expects people to believe there was population settlement of Europe from Africa during Neolithic, yet those African migrants conveniently didn't leave behind any of their tools or culture.... and don't forget these same African migrants introduced agriculture to Europe, but not Africa itself (since agriculture and domestication there primarily derived from Levant). Would make a great fiction novel.


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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
There is no deny modern Europeans are depigmented Africans. That is undeniable. That is clear now.

If that is the case who is more similar to an ancient Egyptian a modern European or a modern West African?
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You can't make this stuff up. I didn't write this...hooonnnnest! lol!

This is from Mr La Brana - Carles Lalueza-Fox,

All Western Europeans had blue eyes and black skin and then white skin and dark eyes Africans arrived. Keep in mind It looks like Paleolithic Africans (Cape Verde) indicates Africans also had light eyes. Genetics is really turn the world upside down. Of course the Kurgan thing is nonsense and he knows it. He will come around when cornered. The flaw is assuming the women don’t exist! Tsk tsk! White males!

---
Quote:
http://www.lavanguardia.com/lacontra/20170222/42212094430/todos-los-europeos-de-hace-8000-anos-tenian-ojos-azules.html

He paints it with blue eyes ...

Because 8,000 years ago the whole population of Western Europe had blue eyes

And what came next?

A wave of dark-eyed and fair-skinned people came from the Middle East and settled in western Europe 6,500 years ago.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Looks like the people over at Davidski are reading my posts on ES. As you can see the discussion is defending the origin of R1b-M269. As I pointed out , ****go where the data takes you**** . R-V88 (the upstream clade of R1b) is key to deciphering the origin. The more intelligent is catching on. The problem with their argument of a refugia in Italy is nonsense of course for several reasons. R-V88 in Central Africa is OLDER than coastal Africa. Also Italians carry a DIFFERENT sub-clade of R1b-M269 than Iberians. All of this point to the Sahara as the origin of European R1b-M269. Mark my word! Lol! But why did this clade become so dominant recently throughout Western Europe?


BTW. By Italy they mean Sardinia(An island off of Africa) of course but NOT the Italian mainland. Europeans and their mis-direction and tricks.


QUOTES
------------------
Blogger truth said...
The Roman influences are small actually. Most R1b in Italy is U152, which is low in Iberia, unless roman influence was female-mediated, wich doesn't seem plausible.

February 26, 2017 at 5:32 AM


Blogger Gioiello said...
@ Simon_W
"one R1b-V88, the predominantly African clade of R1b"

Perhaps you are the only one on all the fora not having realized that*** I**** definitely demonstrated that R-V88 doesn't come from Middle East or Africa but from the Italian Refugium. My letters (and their answers) to Cruciani and Scozzari date only a little after their paper of 2010. Thus put R-V88, and very likely hg. G, in spite of the hg. G found in Middle East, and E-V13 (not found in aDNA in the Balkans when I am saying from so long that the oldest haplotypes are in Italy), as migrated from Italy to Iberia.


@Gioiello

About R1b-V88, relax! By calling it „predominantly African“ I wasn't saying anything about its origin, I was just referring to the place where it's most common now. Just like I did with calling R1b-M269 „predominantly West European“. Of course I don't believe that it originated there.

And no, I'm not dogmatic, I just try to***** follow the evidence where it leads me****. Whereas you have made up your mind ten years ago and now you're never going to change your opinion again, no matter what new evidence comes to light. That's an awkward attitute which seriously hampers the ability of learning.


@ Simon_W
This is my last analysis of the situation of the hg. R-M269-PF7562, not different from what I said ten years ago, that I published in some blogs and fora.

"Of course that the "basal branches" of R-M269 are in the Balkans isn't true.
1) It is true that so far there is a sample of R-M269-PF7562+ and PF7563- found in Anatolia, but this is just a tiny subclade which isn't the ancestor of all the others, as nobody would think that R1b1-L389- found in India or Asia is the ancestor of all us who are R-L389+ (now the thing is more and more clear with the tests on R-V88 and R-M335 all rooted in Italy).
2) The age of this R-PF7562+/PF7563-, which was 5600 ya against the subclades given at 4500 ya, is now reduced (after that I invited my Italian American friend Joe Merante to send his BAM file toYFull) at 300 years, being the subclades at 5300 years old.
3) Anyway these subclades are younger than others, not only the oldest R-V88, R-M335 etc all rooted in Italy, but also R-M73 which is older in Western Europe than in Eastern Europe/Asia, where there is the subclade R-M73-M478, and also my R-L23-Z2110 seems older than the others at the R-L23 level.
4) Beyond that, R-M269 has the hugest subclade (Z29758) deeply rooted in Italy and Western Europe and it is clear now that the other samples found in Lebanon and around the Black Sea derive from Italy. The Jewish subclade (A11710) seems young, with 19 SNPs after a bottleneck, and may be derived from Italy or Western Europe as the most part of the Ashkenazic and Sephardic subclades. The other single clade are pretty all from Italy and Western Europe.
5) If other data will change this situation, I'll be glad to take it into account".

February 26, 2017 at 11:40 PM

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Why do you ask these questions you know the answer to. AEians are closest to South Africans, Great Lakes and then West Africans. Magrehbians and Europeans are not even in the discussion.


A better question is which is cosest East Asians or Europeans. Then the answer is of course ...Europeans because Europeans are more African than Asians/"Non-African"

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
There is no deny modern Europeans are depigmented Africans. That is undeniable. That is clear now.

If that is the case who is more similar to an ancient Egyptian a modern European or a modern West African?

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 -

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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As I said Davidski has his hands full. Lol! Defending the origin of R1b-M269 from the Eurasian Steppes.


Quote:
-----
Blogger Rob said...
Dave do you play table tennis, or collect stamps ?

February 26, 2017 at 6:47 PM
Blogger Davidski said...
Maybe you should take that up, along with Romulus?

February 26, 2017 at 6:53 PM

Blogger Rob said...
@ Davidski

I agree that M417 and L51 show star like expansions, I just said to that effect.
Can you prove at this juncture that L51 and M417 came from Yamnaya?


February 26, 2017 at 4:19 PM

Blogger Olympus Mons said...
@Davidski.

That is game of thrones. Its a.different thing. Reality? That is going to be simple, real simple.

February 26, 2017 at 7:51 AM


26, 2017 at 6:58 PM
Blogger Romulus said...
Dave is from Australia so I figure he is round the clock drunk and hence this explains the argument style.

February 26, 2017 at 7:59 PM


February 25, 2017 at 3:46 AM
Blogger Gioiello said...
I have Always considered that R1b (and much other) from the Italian Refugium after the Younger Dryas expanded and Balkans may have been one of the places, but also all the other subclades are more in Western Europe than the Balkans, and you should know what I think about the R-L23 found at Samara and eastern Europe. Anyway we all are waiting for the aDNA, but it seems to me a complete defeat of all the PhDs of Harvard, Stanford and all their sponsors, and also the false agenda they had. I regret only for my dear friend Sam Vass, and Ashkenazic Jew belonging to R-V88 perhaps I caused some grief with my theory. "A grief ago" the poet said...

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Why do you ask these questions you know the answer to. AEians are closest to South Africans, Great Lakes and then West Africans. Magrehbians and Europeans are not even in the discussion.



So, Magrehbians are quite different from other Africans, why is that?


 -


 -

^^ this means this boy from Zimbabwe would not be ancestor to European

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I said Europeans are depigmented Africans some Europeans are as much as 80% African . It is a continuum that last commenced about 10,000ya.

E-M2 is about 6000years old and R1b1a2-M269 is 5000ya .

Cape Verde people are NOT typical West Africans although they may look it based upon sterotypes. They are genetically North Africans therfore you need to disregard the visuals

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
I said Europeans are depigmented Africans some Europeans are as much as 80% African

which Europeans are 80% African?
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typo-
*more African than non-African.


 -



BTw- this is UNSUPERVISED. ie "NOT"manipulated!!!! not filtered by selecting SNPs

http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/2083/rosenberg-et-2002-cluster-chart


quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
I said Europeans are depigmented Africans some Europeans are as much as 80% African

which Europeans are 80% African?
Since 2002 this has been resolved. Lazaridis et al was late to the scene with his three ancestral populations to modern Europeans . Fig1 K3 agrees with what Lazardis saw that Bedouins are "admixed" Africans. This was clear since 2002 by Rosenberg. Also the so called "Eurasian" Mazb are heavily admixed with SSA.
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.


.
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
I said Europeans are depigmented Africans some Europeans are as much as 80% African

which Europeans in particular, from what country and region are 80% African? Or would you like to retract the statement?


.


,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd0fBXwDBmo

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Turmoil in the Steppe camp…. No he is staring to CENSOR anyone who disagrees with his Steppe nonsense.

----
From Davidski Quote:
Confirmation bias

Every time I put up a thread that is even remotely linked to the Proto-Indo-European (PIE) homeland debate it gets hijacked by people who appear to have a pathological hate for the Kurgan PIE theory.

You'd think that considering the latest ancient DNA results from across Eurasia, which have thus far been very favorable to the Kurgan theory, these people would pipe down a little, at least for the time being, until something shows up that genuinely supports their stance. But nope.

The amount of confirmation bias in such threads is phenomenal. I'm going to start blocking and deleting the worst examples of this nonsense from now on. I'd also urge all reasonable and objective commentators here to try and ignore such comments, so that the offenders are left with no one to talk to.

If you're not quite sure how to spot an off-the-dial confirmation bias effort, here's an example from the last thread. I couldn't be bothered replying to this claptrap initially, but I will now, just to illustrate how off the mark it really is.

quote:
March 2, 2017 at 2:39 AM
Blogger mickeydodds1 said...
What would this site be without the unhinged quibbling and chauvinism?


March 2, 2017 at 4:26 AM
Blogger Onur Dinçer said...
Also, please note that this R1a-rich population came from somewhere west of the Caspian Steppe, possibly the Pontic Steppe or the nearby forest steppe, because it had a higher level of Middle Neolithic European farmer admixture than the R1b-rich population that it replaced. So it's impossible to posit that this was an invasion from Asia, that pushed the R1b-rich population to the Atlantic.

Not to mention the fact that eastern Yamnaya R1b belonged to the Z2105 subclade of L23 rather than L51 that western Europeans have. Assuming that western Yamnaya was rich in L51 rather than Z2105, this would cause a serious problem for the push to the Atlantic hypothesis as it would imply that only western Yamnaya was pushed to the Atlantic by R1a people supposed to come from Asia and that eastern Yamnaya was pushed to the south towards Anatolia and the Balkans instead. Such a selective push of various Yamnaya groups by R1a people supposedly from Asia is highly implausible.


March 2, 2017 at 5:12 AM
Blogger Nirjhar007 said...
And another thing . You say that for millennia R1a and R1b 'IE Groups' it seems that R1a-rich and R1b-rich steppe clans did their own thing when expanding into Asia and Europe during the Eneolithic and Early Bronze Age .

Did their own thing okay. So according to this, perhaps the R1a and R1b blokes , did dna testings and after a meeting they planned to 'expand' y-dna wise?. xxyyman comment: HA! HA! Ha! hA! HA!

Is that suggestion more reasonable or the suggestion that , they were of different linguistic groups?. Endogamy played the role yes and perhaps some inter ethnic bride exogamy . But its simply not possible to say that they both belonged to same language i.e. IE . Its not possible to suggest that IE comes from R1 bifurcation . And at later stage R1a IEs started to dominate R1b, the bad asses in your language , the Sintashta Types . Possibly due to population expansion and invasions.

Remember that this idea that R1a is the PIE , is not and old 'pre-conceived' notion of mine , I had the doubts of PIE being R1a+R1b since R1b didn't exist in notable manner in S Asia, and R1a is the most common clade throughout IE groups worldwide or almost a universal IE clade .

March 2, 2017 at 5:24 AM
Blogger Davidski said...
Nah, that's just another straw man.

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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
I said Europeans are depigmented Africans some Europeans are as much as 80% African . It is a continuum that last commenced about 10,000ya.

E-M2 is about 6000years old and R1b1a2-M269 is 5000ya .

Cape Verde people are NOT typical West Africans although they may look it based upon sterotypes. They are genetically North Africans therfore you need to disregard the visuals

@Xymann,

If Europeans are "depigmentated Africans" why do African fossils lack the most noticeable/salient "Caucasoid" traits? i.e. where are the narrow nasal aperture and reduced/small teeth and jaws on early African crania? On the contrary all palaeo-anthro evidence suggests these traits arose in Europe.

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???? Kakazoids? What is that?

You do know genes don't lie? Don't you?


quote:
Originally posted by JoshuaConnerMoon:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
I said Europeans are depigmented Africans some Europeans are as much as 80% African . It is a continuum that last commenced about 10,000ya.

E-M2 is about 6000years old and R1b1a2-M269 is 5000ya .

Cape Verde people are NOT typical West Africans although they may look it based upon sterotypes. They are genetically North Africans therfore you need to disregard the visuals

@Xymann,

If Europeans are "depigmentated Africans" why do African fossils lack the most noticeable/salient "Caucasoid" traits? i.e. where are the narrow nasal aperture and reduced/small teeth and jaws on early African crania? On the contrary all palaeo-anthro evidence suggests these traits arose in Europe.


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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
I said Europeans are depigmented Africans some Europeans are as much as 80% African

which Europeans in particular are 80% African, from what country and region?

Or were you just bullshitting when you said that?

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Elmaestro
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
I said Europeans are depigmented Africans some Europeans are as much as 80% African

which Europeans in particular are 80% African, from what country and region?

Or were you just bullshitting when you said that?

Budump

I wanna know this as well.

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xyyman
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Read the fing chart people. I am not holding anyones hand.

BTW. The Lazaridis paper showed the same thing. Europeans are more African than non-African.

But I just noticed this when the Native Americans are the MOST non-African the Mayans contains the most African Ancestry. Maybe Dr Winters, Mike and Van Sertima was correct. "They came before Columbus". Why would the most Advanced Native American ancient population contain high African ancestry?


quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
typo-
*more African than non-African.


 -



BTw- this is UNSUPERVISED. ie "NOT"manipulated!!!! not filtered by selecting SNPs

http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/2083/rosenberg-et-2002-cluster-chart


quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
I said Europeans are depigmented Africans some Europeans are as much as 80% African

which Europeans are 80% African?
Since 2002 this has been resolved. Lazaridis et al was late to the scene with his three ancestral populations to modern Europeans . Fig1 K3 agrees with what Lazardis saw that Bedouins are "admixed" Africans. This was clear since 2002 by Rosenberg. Also the so called "Eurasian" Mazb are heavily admixed with SSA.

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