posted
Oldest Y-DNA R1b1 (and therefore R1b and R1) ever documented in Villabruna, Northern Italy
Did dark skinned blue eyed Italians take R1b into Africa?
These are the oldest remains known for R1b, 14 kya although the ancestor to R1b, basal R is much older and 24k remains carrying R were found in Siberia
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The 24ky old Grimaldi remains belonged to the Salutrean culture. The Solutrean culture originated in South Africa. Khoisan from South Africa took the Solutrean culture into Italy and Spain where they established the Grimaldi culture.
Most Africans carry R1b-V88. Interestingly, many Southern Africans carry R1b-M269. For example around 6% of the Khoisan and 8% of the Herero continue to carry R1b-M269.This would explain the presence of M269 among many European hunter-gatherers.
Villabruna man,carried R1b1 which is a V88 clade.
Gemma Berniell-Lee Francesc Calafell Elena Bosch Evelyne Heyer Lucas Sica Patrick Mouguiama-Daouda Lolke van der Veen Jean-Marie Hombert Lluis Quintana-Murci David Comas Mol Biol Evol (2009) 26 (7): 1581-1589. .
R1b1 and R1b1a do not change just because you give it a different number. Below is Cruciani et al (2010). .
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Oldest Y-DNA R1b1 (and therefore R1b and R1) ever documented in Villabruna, Northern Italy
Did dark skinned blue eyed Italians take R1b into Africa?
These are the oldest remains known for R1b, 14 kya although the ancestor to R1b, basal R is much older and 24k remains carrying R were found in Siberia
Of course, how else was it possible?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Great thread. But the answer is no. .
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The 24ky old Grimaldi remains belonged to the Salutrean culture. The Solutrean culture originated in South Africa. Khoisan from South Africa took the Solutrean culture into Italy and Spain where they established the Grimaldi culture.
Most Africans carry R1b-V88. Interestingly, many Southern Africans carry R1b-M269. For example around 6% of the Khoisan and 8% of the Herero continue to carry R1b-M269.This would explain the presence of M269 among many European hunter-gatherers.
Villabruna man,carried R1b1 which is a V88 clade.
Gemma Berniell-Lee Francesc Calafell Elena Bosch Evelyne Heyer Lucas Sica Patrick Mouguiama-Daouda Lolke van der Veen Jean-Marie Hombert Lluis Quintana-Murci David Comas Mol Biol Evol (2009) 26 (7): 1581-1589. .
R1b1 and R1b1a do not change just because you give it a different number. Below is Cruciani et al (2010). .
Villabruna is the oldest R1b found and it was found in Northern Italy.
None of what you have said above contradicts this. You have nothing in Africa pre-dating this. Therefore one cannot say that R1b did not originate in Europe. Ish Gebor gets it. There's some very old R in Siberia however the earlier Paleolithic Europeans carried other Hgs
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Great thread. But the answer is no. .
.
The 24ky old Grimaldi remains belonged to the Salutrean culture. The Solutrean culture originated in South Africa. Khoisan from South Africa took the Solutrean culture into Italy and Spain where they established the Grimaldi culture.
Most Africans carry R1b-V88. Interestingly, many Southern Africans carry R1b-M269. For example around 6% of the Khoisan and 8% of the Herero continue to carry R1b-M269.This would explain the presence of M269 among many European hunter-gatherers.
Villabruna man,carried R1b1 which is a V88 clade.
Gemma Berniell-Lee Francesc Calafell Elena Bosch Evelyne Heyer Lucas Sica Patrick Mouguiama-Daouda Lolke van der Veen Jean-Marie Hombert Lluis Quintana-Murci David Comas Mol Biol Evol (2009) 26 (7): 1581-1589. .
R1b1 and R1b1a do not change just because you give it a different number. Below is Cruciani et al (2010). .
Villabruna is the oldest R1b found and it was found in Northern Italy.
None of what you have said above contradicts this. Therefore one cannot say that R1b did not originate in Europe. Ish Gebor gets it
Do you understand the word sarcasm?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: No back pedaling please
quote: Nevertheless, Villabruna 1, more then the majority of his contemporaries, retains climatic adaptation typical of the ancestral African population.
quote: These data suggest that while Villabruna 1 retains more ancestral condition indicative of African origin than its contemporaries, this specimen fits well in the microevolutionary process that affected European Upper Paleolithic populations leading to the progressive acquisition of body proportions typical of temperate regions.
quote:However, mitocondrial DNA analyses carried out on prehistoric human remains from this region highlighted in Villabruna 1 a sequence not observed in contemporary European populations (Di Benedetto et al., 2000), raising the possibility of genetic discontinuity between the last hunter-gatherers from the Alps and subsequent populations.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
I don't get it. This topic is about human remains found in Italy. So why are you posting a picture of an African girl (you probably don't even know the country this girl is from) and why is Clyde posting Solomon Island kids?
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posted
- Also if they were dark skinned Italians then the back migration was ok, they were swagalicious, so dont hate on those who backmigrate
Nevertheless how they looked does not mean that haplogroup R did not originate outside of Africa. I have never even heard of a geneticist or anthropologist (or even afrocentric) that say R originates in Africa. It's only a couple of wacky members of Egyptsearch (you know who you are)
I'm not saying the theory is impossible but at this point in time the evidence for the case is very weak.
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The phylogeography of R1 in Africa makes it clear that this Y-chromosome is spread globally across Africa and includes the genetic structure of diverse African populations including Berber, Chadic, Cushitic, Khoisan, Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan and Semitic speaking African populations (BerniellLee et al ,2009; Cruciani et al, 2010; Winters, 2016; Woods et al,2005). The fact that Dravidians carry the R1a haplogroup illustrate the recent introduction of the R1 Y-chromosome to Eurasia.
There have been changes in the names of the African Y-Chromosome R1 over the years. In 2010, R-V88 was originally named R1b1a. It was renamed R1b1a2. Today R1b1a has been renamed R-L754. African R1b1 has been changed into R-L278. These African genomes were found in Neolithic Eurasia.
Between 3200-2900 BC, African culture and people began to migrate into Iberia and introduced megaliths and the Bell Beaker culture (Lahovary, 1963). Spanish researchers accepted the reality that the Iberia Peninsula owed the major parts of Neolithic Iberia to African immigrants (Lahovary, 1963; Macwhite,1947).
MacWhite (1947) claims there was a close relationship between Iberia and Britain. These researchers admit that Portugal and Brittany were settled by Megalithic Africans who founded respectively the Mugem and Teviec sepultures ( Lahovary,1963; MacWhite, 1947).
The African Sahara and Morocco was a major source for the Bell Beaker and Corded Ware cultural complex. The Proto-Beaker pottery dates back to 4500 BC in the Sahara (Daugas et al , 1989) . Agro-Pastoral people cultivated crops and herded cattle. Elements of the Agro-Pastoral members of the Bell Beaker and Corded Ware complexes appear first in the African Sahara. Here we see rock engravings of cattle herders and hunters using similar bow and arrows. The Yamnaya archers' wrist-guard and bows may have had their origin in the Sahara where we see similar wrist-guards (Le Quellec, 2011 ).
The estimated age of R1b-M343 is over 20kya. R1a-420 and R1-343 probably date to around 25kya (Kivisild,2017).
Oldest R1b-M343 clade found among the ancient Europeans dates to 14kya. Lineages belonging to R1 include the 14ky old Villabruna Man from Italy and the 7ky old individual from Spain (Fu et al, 2016).
Kivisild et al (2017) makes it clear that the V88 sub-clade, had relatives in Early Neolithic samples from across a wide geographic area from Iberia, and Germany to Samara (namely R1b1/RL278). This would place carriers of R1 haplogroups related to V88 among the Yamnaya and Bell Beaker people. Given the wide distribution of M269 in Africa, the carriers of this haplogroup were probably also Africans since the Bell Beaker people/culture , originated in Morocco as noted by Turek (2012).
Recent most common ancestor of R1*-M173 in Europe is 5-7ky old (Batini et al. 2015; Hallast et al. 2015; Karmin et al. 2015; Poznik et al. 2016). The R1*-M173 samples from Central and Western Europe were usually R1b-L11, R1a1-Z283 and R1a-M417 (xZ645). In relation to the Eastern samples from the Yamnaya culture and Samara belonged to the R1b11-Z2105, R1b1-RL278 and R1a2-Z93 sub-clades (Allentoft et al. 2015; Cassidy et al. 2016; Haak et al. 2015; Mathieson et al. 2015; Schiffels et al. 2016).
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Clyde the next time you post images of charts which do not not have your name on them but do have the name of another researcher and they are not untouched snap shot images of the chart from those researchers you will be suspended
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quote:Originally posted by Suliman: Other way around. Africans took R1B into Europe.
Yep, this is of course the most frighting scenario to eurocentrism. Those sub-human SSA's. They only have one place, and that is in the sub Sahara, until supreme caca-eurasians magically entered all the way "deep in the jungles of Africa" to procreate with negresses of the wild-jungle. That is the most logical scenario. This is also the reason why they speak fluent classical Latin substratum languages to in the jungle of Africa.
posted
R1b didn't come from Africa. It is nested many layers deep in Eurasian Y diversity, and is far more diverse in Eurasia - even just in Europe - than in Africa.
You guys are just like South Europeans who are butthurt about carrying E-M35 and insist that E must have originated in Eurasia - never mind that it is nested deep in African E diversity. Same racism, same delusions.
Posts: 660 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2017
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quote:Originally posted by capra: R1b didn't come from Africa. It is nested many layers deep in Eurasian Y diversity, and is far more diverse in Eurasia - even just in Europe - than in Africa.
You guys are just like South Europeans who are butthurt about carrying E-M35 and insist that E must have originated in Eurasia - never mind that it is nested deep in African E diversity. Same racism, same delusions.
Yes, it did.
Hg E was also claimed to have come from "Eurasia" also at one point in time.
"Same racism, same delusions." Do you even understand racism?
Racism is when you see SSA's as subhumans who have never contributed to anything. Racism is when one group of people systemically has been excluded for centuries and still systemically is being persecuted.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
E's sister branches are Eurasian C, D, and F, hence it's reasonable to argue that it could be a very early back-migrant from Eurasia. (Not how I'd bet though. North Africa, quite possibly.) That is talking about very early E or pre-E though, not far downstream branches.
You can reasonably argue that, say, F was born in Africa and migrated at an early date to Eurasia, which is the same kind of thing. It doesn't follow that far downstream branches of F (like R1b) originated in Africa. (But there *is* F* in Sudan, who knows what that is.)
Posts: 660 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2017
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quote:Originally posted by capra: E's sister branches are Eurasian C, D, and F, hence it's reasonable to argue that it could be a very early back-migrant from Eurasia. (Not how I'd bet though. North Africa, quite possibly.) That is talking about very early E or pre-E though, not deep downstream branches.
You can reasonably argue that, say, F was born in Africa and migrated at an early date to Eurasia, which is the same kind of thing. It doesn't follow that deep downstream branches of F originated in Africa.
According to Fulvio Cruciani et al. it is all a bit different.
And as of now methods for researching stems in the petrous bone in hot climatic Africa is underdevelopment. Current methods for researching the petrous bone can only trace stems cold climates.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: And as of now methods for researching stems in the petrous bone in hot climatic Africa is underdevelopment. Current methods for researching the petrous bone can only trace stems cold climates.
Not really true, cold climates are obviously better but we are getting increasing numbers of SSA aDNA samples, so the situation is improving. We can't expect an Ust' Ishim but even a few thousand years is a big deal with how dynamic populations in Africa have been.
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: And as of now methods for researching stems in the petrous bone in hot climatic Africa is underdevelopment. Current methods for researching the petrous bone can only trace stems cold climates.
Not really true, cold climates are obviously better but we are getting increasing numbers of SSA aDNA samples, so the situation is improving. We can't expect an Ust' Ishim but even a few thousand years is a big deal with how dynamic populations in Africa have been.
It is true, I recently read it in a new paper.
I forgot about the particular paper, but if I find it I will create a new topic on it.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Dark skin blue eyes? Yeah maybe, they might have looked like the picture Clyde showed above.
-------------------- “Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.” Posts: 195 | From: Southern Africa(Azania) | Registered: Mar 2017
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posted
Italians and generally South Europeans have low levels of Sub Saharan African autosomal ancestry. This lies between 1-3%. For comparison African Americans have 15-25% European ancestry on average.
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quote:Originally posted by francesco01: Italians and generally South Europeans have low levels of Sub Saharan African autosomal ancestry. This lies between 1-3%. For comparison African Americans have 15-25% European ancestry on average.
Your obsession with Sub Saharan Africans is unhealthy.
Ps. Most of Sub Sahara Africa has not been tested genetically, so your argument makes no sense.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by francesco01: Italians and generally South Europeans have low levels of Sub Saharan African autosomal ancestry. This lies between 1-3%. For comparison African Americans have 15-25% European ancestry on average.
This so-called European ancestry is basically R1. We know today that many of the slaves came here carrying R1. As a result, they are carrying African genes --not European.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: . We know today that many of the slaves came here carrying R1.
how would you know if it's many or very rare?
Because it was posted.
No, nothing has been posted with evidence that many slaves instead of some or few were R1 carriers, are you familiar with Tishkoff ?
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quote:Originally posted by francesco01: Italians and generally South Europeans have low levels of Sub Saharan African autosomal ancestry. This lies between 1-3%. For comparison African Americans have 15-25% European ancestry on average.
Ps, I almost forgot. There is African introgression as well. Ha 'bout that?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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