quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: lioness' I know we disagree on most things, But I would like to thank you for the fine research you have done in finding primary data for this topic.
thanks, it took a while to coordinate sources
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quote:Originally posted by the questioner: (my quote removed, repetative-lioness)
there's no telling how many Brazilians were annihilated by Portuguese disease or warfare
It is wrong for you to edit this post. It makes one feel you are trying to hide something.
I'm am going to have to edit some posts. I said what I deleted "my quote"
the whole thing was a repeat of my own post which was quoted and had a lot of text and images previous to the remark about it, none of it was the questioner's words, those I left alone
I want the thread to look readable without too many repeats of already posted material especially if it was directly before the remark
And If something is too far off topic I might delete it such as Nanban trade in Japan
Even Brazil is not that close to Patagonia
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: No more diversions please the topic is quotes of Pigafetta not misquotes of Pigafetta
Does anyone have the original Italian manuscript by pigafetta?
And to focus this even more we need to stop discussing Pigafetta on Brazil and switch to Pigafetta on Tierra del Fuego
Now if there isn't even these Brazilian type remarks as per Tierra del Fuego, then Pigafetta isn't even a good reference for there!
that means look for other authors on the Fuegians
this goes out to Capra to be exact since she is the one finding all of the primary sources
Does anyone have the original Italian manuscript by pigafetta?
"And to focus this even more we need to stop discussing Pigafetta on Brazil and switch to Pigafetta on Tierra del Fuego Now if there isn't even these Brazilian type remarks as per Tierra del Fuego, then Pigafetta isn't even a good reference for there!"-the lioness
maybe the tierra del fuego quote might be in the original Italian manuscript
posted
"lioness' I know we disagree on most things, But I would like to thank you for the fine research you have done in finding primary data for this topic."-clyde winters
thank capra not the lioness
It was Capra who presented all of the primary sources.
posted
the last point about the tierra del fuego before this debate is finished
Julius Popper states in a speech that some natives of tierra del fuego had woolly hair.
"the central portions of tierra de fuego are inhabited by a race of corpulent, strong, and muscular natives, whose height sometimes exceed six feet. their skin is of a clear copper color, and is soft and oily to the touch. their dark, lusterless, woolly hair falls in tufts around a large tonsure, cut close in the top of the head." Monthly Consular and Trade Reports, Volume 23, Issues 81-84 By United States. Bureau of Manufactures pg 392 https://books.google.com/books?id=eExJAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA392&dq=woolly+hair+terra#v=onepage&q&f=false
[ 11. November 2017, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: the lioness, ]
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: the last point about the tierra del fuego before this debate is finished
Julius Popper states in a speech that some natives of tierra del fuego had woolly hair.
"the central portions of tierra de fuego are inhabited by a race of corpulent, strong, and muscular natives, whose height sometimes exceed six feet. their skin is of a clear copper color, and is soft and oily to the touch. their dark, lusterless, woolly hair falls in tufts around a large tonsure, cut close in the top of the head." Monthly Consular and Trade Reports, Volume 23, Issues 81-84 By United States. Bureau of Manufactures pg 392 https://books.google.com/books?id=eExJAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA392&dq=woolly+hair+terra
^ this author was "induced to make a translation of Julius Popper"
Exploration of Tierra del Fuego A Lecture Delivered at the Argentine Geographical Institute
Julius Popper
Argentine Tierra del Fuego is inhabited by an aboriginal race, stout, strong, and muscular, whose stature sometimes exceeds six feet.
Their skin is a light copper color, and of a smooth and greasy feel. Around a large tonsure in the middle of the head their dull black hair falls in heavy locks. The oval face is of orthogonal type, the forehead rather narrow, which with the poorly-developed frontal protuberances terminating in prominent and but slightly arched eyebrows, gives to their eyes an expression at once sunken and energetic. Prominent cheek-bones and an almost aquiline nose; a medium-sized mouth, with teeth covered with a yellowish enamel; two or three hairs on the chin, and a pair of hanging and shapeless ears complete a face which reminds one more of the North American Indian than of the Tehuelches, who inhabit the other side of the Straits. Their shoulders are square and strong, their chest broad, and, in the men, prominent and rounded, whilst the women generally have flattened bosoms with flacid, hanging breasts, though I have occasionally seen the latter firm and hemispherical.
Julius Popper (December 15, 1857 – June 5, 1893), also known in Spanish as Julio Popper, was a Romanian-born Argentine engineer, adventurer and explorer.[1] He was the designer of the modern outline of the city of Havana, Cuba.[2]
Known as a modern "conquistador" of Tierra del Fuego in southern South America, he was a controversial but influential figure. Popper was one of the perpetrators of the genocide against the native Selk'nam people.
Julius Popper with a murdered Ona.
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posted
Be careful of over-long URLs they make the format too wide
You can use the URL button link function or after the URL is there highlight and delete a lot of the end of it. It's usually still functional, check by clicking it in the pop up preview, then post
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Be careful of over-long URLs they make the format too wide
You can use the URL button link function or after the URL is there highlight and delete a lot of the end of it. It's usually still functional, check by clicking it in the pop up preview, then post
posted
yes that is good, where is your proof that the original lecture was delivered in Spanish without a translator present ?
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posted
Your proposal here is that in 1887 that the Ona people also known as the Selk'nam were woolly haired and black resembling a typical modern day American black person
^ Ona people 1989
But nobody remarked they looked just like Africans
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: yes that is good, where is your proof that the original lecture was delivered in Spanish without a translator present ?
The speech was delivered before the Argentine geographical society. julius popper spoke spanish
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: yes that is good, where is your proof that the original lecture was delivered in Spanish without a translator present ?
The speech was delivered before the Argentine geographical society. julius popper spoke spanish
If Julius Popper spoke Spanish confidently enough to do a lecture it means that his description "Los Cabellos negros, apagados y lanudos" which translates to
"The black hair, dull and shaggy"
or if you prefer the word " woolly" as the translation for lanudos means that someone can look at a person with unkempt hair like the man above that has been let alone to get frizzy could be termed "woolly"
So this means some people, like Julius Popper interpret woolly hair to include that type of straight hair not kept in combed condition and not exclusively "kinky" afro textured hair that many Africans have
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Dreadlock Techniques for White People
Straight hair can be a lot harder to dreadlock than other hair textures. It does not naturally interlock as easily as kinky, curly or even wavy hair does. It may take some experimentation with a variety of techniques and require lots of patience, but it's possible for a white person with silky, straight hair to have a head full of beautiful dreadlocks.
Wool Hat Method You may have seen people with dreadlocks wearing wool hats or tams. One reason is that they can help people with various hair textures, even straight hair, form dreadlocks naturally. It's important to start with freshly washed, dry hair. Put on your wool hat and rub it in a circular motion against your hair all over your head. This works much better with hair that has some length. Repeat the rubbing motion frequently throughout each day, and you will soon notice hair knots forming. You can gently pull them apart and the sections will naturally become the dreadlocks you want.
Neglect Method When it comes to dreadlock techniques for white people, the neglect or "freeforming" method is quite popular. Some automatically assume that the neglect method of dreadlocking includes not washing your hair, but the oil from your scalp can actually slow down the process. It's also very unsanitary. The neglect method requires more patience than the other techniques. Depending on your hair texture, it can take anywhere from one to three years to for dreadlocks to start forming. Curly hair will probably get faster results. As your hair begins matting and forming dreadlocks, you can either separate them for a neater look or just let them do their own thing.
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posted
what you said is possible ^^^ "los negros del africa tienen cabellos finos, lanudos, cortos, negros y crespados." pg 482 Diccionario de materia mercantil, industrial y agrícola: que ..., Volume 1 By José Oriol Ronquillo y Vidal 1851
The black hair, dull and shaggy or The black hair, dull and woolly
This is pretty recent, 1889 Julius Popper gave his lecture in 1897
An 1879 Chilean expedition led by Ramón Serrano Montaner reported large amounts of placer gold in the streams and river beds of Tierra del Fuego. This prompted massive immigration to the main island between 1883 and 1909. Numerous Argentines, Chileans and Croatians settled in the main island, leading to increased conflicts with native Selk'nam.
It doesn't sound reasonable that Europeans in Tierra Del Fuego would not have noted that there were some people there who looked like Indians and another type of people who looked like Africans
Above are people of the Ona tribe, this is the exact tribe Julius Popper had described
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Ona people
This is pretty recent, 1889 Julius Popper gave his lecture in 1897
An 1879 Chilean expedition led by Ramón Serrano Montaner reported large amounts of placer gold in the streams and river beds of Tierra del Fuego. This prompted massive immigration to the main island between 1883 and 1909. Numerous Argentines, Chileans and Croatians settled in the main island, leading to increased conflicts with native Selk'nam.
It doesn't sound reasonable that Europeans in Tierra Del Fuego would not have noted that there were some people there who looked like Indians and another type of people who looked like Africans
Above are people of the Ona tribe, this is the exact tribe Julius Popper had described
On his first voyage with the HMS Beagle in 1830, Robert FitzRoy picked up four native Fuegians, including "Jemmy Button" (Orundellico) and brought them to England. The surviving three were taken to London to meet the King and Queen and were, for a time, celebrities. They returned to Tierra del Fuego in the Beagle with FitzRoy and Charles Darwin, who made extensive notes about his visit to the islands.
Two views of Jemmy Button from FitzRoy's Narrative (1839)
Orundellico, known as "Jeremy Button" or "Jemmy Button" (c. 1815 – 1864), was a native Fuegian of the Yaghan (or Yámana) people from islands around Tierra del Fuego, in modern Chile and Argentina. He was taken to England by Captain FitzRoy in HMS Beagle and became a celebrity for a period.
In 1830, Captain Robert FitzRoy, at the command of the first expedition of the famous Beagle, took a group of hostages from the Fuegian indigenous people after one of his boats was stolen.[1] Jemmy Button was paid for with a mother of pearl button, hence his name. It is not clear whether his family willingly accepted the sale or he was simply abducted. FitzRoy decided to take four of the young Fuegian hostages all the way to England "to become useful as interpreters, and be the means of establishing a friendly disposition towards Englishmen on the part of their countrymen."[1] He seems to have shown great concern for the four, feeding them before his own officers and crew and intending them to be educated and Christianised so that they could improve the conditions of their kin.
The names given to the Fuegians by the crew were York Minster, Jemmy Button, Fuegia Basket (a girl) and Boat Memory.[1] The original names of the first three were, respectively, el'leparu, o'run-del'lico and yok'cushly. Boat Memory died of smallpox shortly after his arrival to England, and his Yahgan name is lost.
The Beagle arrived back in Plymouth from her first voyage of exploration in mid-October 1830. The newspapers soon started publishing details of the Yahgan visitors and they became celebrities. In London, they met King William IV. Fuegia Basket, a young girl, was given a bonnet from Queen Adelaide herself.
One year later, Captain Fitzroy returned the three surviving Fuegans home, at great expense to himself. He took with him a young naturalist, Charles Darwin, in what was the second voyage of the HMS Beagle.
After initial difficulty recalling his language and customs, Jemmy soon shed his European clothes and habits. A few months after his arrival, he was seen emaciated, naked save for a loincloth, and long-haired. Nevertheless, he declined the offer to return to England, which Darwin conjectured was due to the presence of his "young and nice looking wife" It appears that he and the others had taught their families some English.
In 1855, a group of Christian missionaries from the Patagonian Missionary Society visited Wulaia Bay on Navarino Island, to find that Jemmy still had a remarkable grasp of English. Some time later in 1859, another group of missionaries was killed at Wulaia Bay by the Yaghan, supposedly led by Jemmy and his family. In early 1860, Jemmy visited Keppel Island and gave evidence at the enquiry into the massacre, held in Stanley. He denied responsibility.
In 1863, the missionary Waite Stirling visited Tierra del Fuego and re-established contact with Jemmy; from then relations with the Yaghan improved. In 1866, after Jemmy's death, Stirling took one of Jemmy's sons, known as Threeboy, to England
Fuegians going to trade in Zapallos with the Patagonians from FitzRoy's Narrative (1839)
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First Contact with the “Fuegians” (including Darwin's account)
On December 18th, Darwin had his first encounter with the people of eastern Tierra del Fuego – a people he (and FitzRoy) referred to in general as the “Fuegians”. FitzRoy had encountered “Fuegians” on the first voyage of the Beagle, and in fact, there were currently three on board. (The two Fuegians referenced below – Jemmy Button and York Minster – belonged to a group of people from the west. So although the Englishmen lumped them all together as “Fuegians”, there were (not surprisingly) separate cultures in Tierra del Fuego.) I’ll have more to say in the coming days about the native people of Tierra del Fuego and the tree passengers that FitzRoy was bringing home. But, I suspect there is some value in reading Darwin’s own words about this first encounter in their entirety today.
“Natives of Tierra del Fuego” by Conrad Martens (from FitzRoy’s Narratives)
It is always a bit uncomfortable to hear Darwin compare “savages” with “civilized men”, so I find that I have to remind myself that this was a different time, and although it not appropriate today, it is a part of history. This European viewpoint certainly was part of who Darwin was and how he thought about the world.
Here is Darwin’s first encounter with the people living at the “bottom of the world”. (I’ve broken the entry into paragraphs to make it a little easier to follow on the page.)
quote: “The Captain sent a boat with a large party of officers to communicate with the Fuegians. As soon as the boat came within hail, one of the four men who advanced to receive us began to shout most vehemently, & at the same time pointed out a good landing place.— The women & children had all disappeared.— When we landed the party looked rather alarmed, but continued talking & making gestures with great rapidity.— It was without exception the most curious & interesting spectacle I ever beheld.— I would not have believed how entire the difference between savage & civilized man is.— It is greater than between a wild & domesticated animal, in as much as in man there is greater power of improvement.— The chief spokesman was old & appeared to be head of the family; the three others were young powerful men & about 6 feet high.— From their dress &c &c they resembled the representations of Devils on the Stage, for instance in Der Freischutz.— The old man had a white feather cap; from under which, black long hair hung round his face.— The skin is dirty copper colour. Reaching from ear to ear & including the upper lip, there was a broard red coloured band of paint.— & parallel & above this, there was a white one; so that the eyebrows & eyelids were even thus coloured; the only garment was a large guanaco skin, with the hair outside.— This was merely thrown over their shoulders, one arm & leg being bare; for any exercise they must be absolutely naked.”
“Their very attitudes were abject, & the expression distrustful, surprised & startled:— Having given them some red cloth, which they immediately placed round their necks, we became good friends.— This was shown by the old man patting our breasts & making something like the same noise which people do when feeding chickens.— I walked with the old man & this demonstration was repeated between us several times: at last he gave me three hard slaps on the breast & back at the same time, & making most curious noises.— He then bared his bosom for me to return the compliment, which being done, he seemed highly pleased:— Their language does not deserve to be called articulate: Capt. Cook says it is like a man clearing his throat; to which may be added another very hoarse man trying to shout & a third encouraging a horse with that peculiar noise which is made in one side of the mouth.— Imagine these sounds & a few gutterals mingled with them, & there will be as near an approximation to their language as any European may expect to obtain.”
“Their chief anxiety was obtain knives; this they showed by pretending to have blubber in their mouths, & cutting instead of tearing it from the body.— they called them in a continued plaintive tone Cochilla,— probably a corruption from a Spanish word.— They are excellent mimics, if you cough or yawn or make any odd motion they immediately imitate you.— Some of the officers began to squint & make monkey like faces;— but one of the young men, whose face was painted black with white band over his eyes was most successful in making still more hideous grimaces.— When a song was struck up, I thought they would have fallen down with astonishment; & with equal delight they viewed our dancing and immediately began themselves to waltz with one of the officers.”
“They knew what guns were & much dreaded them, & nothing would tempt them to take one in their hands.— Jemmy Button came in the boat with us; it was interesting to watch their conduct to him.— They immediately perceived the difference & held much conversation between themselves on the subject.— The old man then began a long harangue to Jemmy; who said it was inviting him to stay with them:— but the language is rather different & Jemmy could not talk to them.— If their dress & appearance is miserable, their manner of living is still more so.”
“Their food chiefly consists in limpets & muscles, together with seals & a few birds; they must also catch occasionally a Guanaco. They seem to have no property excepting bows & arrows & spears: their present residence is under a few bushes by a ledge of rock: it is no ways sufficient to keep out rain or wind.— & now in the middle of summer it daily rains & as yet each day there has been some sleet.— The almost impenetrable wood reaches down to high water mark.— so that the habitable land is literally reduced to the large stones on the beach.— & here at low water, whether it may be night or day, these wretched looking beings pick up a livelihood.— I believe if the world was searched, no lower grade of man could be found.— The Southsea Islanders are civilized compared to them, & the Esquimaux, in subterranean huts may enjoy some of the comforts of life.”
“After dinner the Captain paid the Fuegians another visit.— They received us with less distrust & brought with them their timid children.— They noticed York Minster (who accompanied us) in the same manner as Jemmy, & told him he ought to shave, & yet he has not 20 hairs on his face, whilst we all wear our untrimmed beards.— They examined the color of his skin; & having done so, they looked at ours.— An arm being bared, they expressed the liveliest surprise & admiration.— Their whole conduct was such an odd mixture of astonishment & imitation, that nothing could be more laughable & interesting.— The tallest man was pleased with being examined & compared with a tall sea-man, in doing this he tried his best to get on rather higher ground & to stand on tip-toes: He opened his mouth to show his teeth & turned his face en profil; for the rest of his days doubtless he will be the beau ideal of his tribe.— Two or three of the officers, who are both fairer & shorter than the others (although possessed of large beards) were, we think, taken for Ladies.— I wish they would follow our supposed example & produce their “squaws”.— In the evening we parted very good friends; which I think was fortunate, for the dancing & “sky-larking” had occassionally bordered on a trial of strength.” (Dec 18)
FitzRoy describes several of the same things in his Narratives. I will share just one line, that I found particularly interesting. It is a little hard to follow, but I think (if I read it right) he is actually making a somewhat enlightened point for 1832:
quote:
“Disagreeable, indeed painful, as is even the mental contemplation of a savage, and unwilling as we may be to consider ourselves even remotely descended from human beings in such a state, the reflection that Cæsar found the Britons painted and clothed in skins, like these Fuegians, cannot fail to augment an interest excited by their childish ignorance of matters familiar to civilized man, and by their healthy, independent state of existence.” (Narratives, FitzRoy)
The thing that amazed Europeans the most about the Yahgans (and to some degree all the Fuegians) was their adaptations to the cold. Although it rained all the time, and temperatures were often in the 30’s and 40’s, the Yaghan people seemed completely comfortable with virtually no clothes, and often slept in the open and swam in the ocean. I swam in the ocean once in the Gulf of Alaska – I gotta say, it was the coldest water I have ever encountered. And I’ve swam in front of glaciers. It was the Yaghan women who foraged in the ocean – reportedly the men never learned to swim.
Aside from just being more adapted to cold, the Yaghans had several other ways of staying warm. For example, they reportedly coated themselves in animal grease or paint, and tended to squat on the ground reducing their overall surface area. In addition, they built shelters (such as the wigwams Darwin observed) and built fires (even in their canoes). It was these fires, along with signal fires used for communication that most likely gave Tierra del Fuego its name.
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"the stature of the fuegians is generally from four feet ten inches to five feet six inches" pg 823 A Gazetteer of the World: Or, Dictionary of Geographical Knowledge, Volume 7
"the central portions of Tierra del fuego are inhabited by a race of corpulent, strong, and muscular natives, whose height sometimes exceeds six feet" -julius popper
posted
There were different tribes and are said to have difference in height, some in different locations
including the Ona (Selk'nam), Haush (Manek'enk), Yaghan (Yámana), and Alacaluf (Kawésqar).
Tierra del Fuego ; Spanish for "Land of Fire") is an archipelago off the southernmost tip of the South American mainland, across the Strait of Magellan. The archipelago consists of the main island, Isla Grande de Tierra del Fuego, with an area of 18,572 sq miles, and a group of many islands, including Cape Horn and Diego Ramírez Islands. Tierra del Fuego is divided between Chile and Argentina, with the latter controlling the eastern half of the main island and the former the western half plus the islands south of Beagle Channel. The southernmost extent of the archipelago is at about latitude 55 S.
The earliest known human settlement in Tierra del Fuego dates to around 8,000 B.C. Europeans first explored the islands during Ferdinand Magellan's expedition of 1520;
This region has a subpolar oceanic climate (Köppen climate classification Cfc) with short, cool summers and long, wet, moderately mild winters: the precipitation averages 3,000 mm (118 in) a year in the far west, but precipitation decreases rapidly to the eastern side. Temperatures are steady throughout the year: in Ushuaia they hardly surpass 9 °C (48 °F) in summers and average 0 °C (32 °F) in winters. Snowfall can occur in summer
Ushuaia is the capital of Tierra del Fuego, Antártida e Islas del Atlántico Sur Province, Argentina. It is commonly regarded as the southernmost city in the world.
Ushuaia was founded informally by British missionaries, following previous British surveys, long before Argentine nationals or government representatives arrived there on a permanent basis. Vegetation around the city thus does not resemble typical tundra but is instead heavily forested
Ushuaia's industrial sector, led by the Grundig Renacer electronics factory, is among the largest in Patagonia. On December 29, 2009, the first same-sex couple to marry in Latin America were married in Ushuaia
Chacun porte chez soi la portion qui lui est échue, la fait sécher à la fumée, et chaque huitième jour il en fait rôtir un petit morceau pour le manger. J'ai appris ce fait de Jean Carvajo 20, notre pilote, qui avoit passé quatre ans au Brésil.
Les Brésiliens se peignent le corps et surtout le visage d'une étrange manière et de différentes façons, les femmes aussi bien que les hommes. Ils ont les cheveux courts et laineux, et n'ont de poil sur aucune partie de leur corps, parce qu'ils s'épilent 21. Ils ont une espèce de veste faite de plumes de perroquet tissues ensemble, et arrangées de façon que les grandes pennes des ailes et de la queue leur forment un cercle sur les reins, ce qui leur donne une figure bisarre et ridicule. Presque tous les hommes ont la lèvre inférieure percée de trois trous par lesquels ils passent de petits cylindres de pierre longs de deux pouces. Les femmes et les enfans n'ont pas cet ornement incommode 22. Ajoutez à cela qu'ils sont entièrement nus par devant. Leur couleur est plutôt olivâtre que noire. Leur roi porte le nom de Cacique.
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English translation:
Each one carries home the portion that has fallen to him, dries it with smoke, and every eighth day he roasts a small piece to eat it. I learned this from Jean Carvajo 20, our pilot, who spent four years in Brazil.
Brazilians paint their bodies and especially their faces in a strange way and in different ways, women as well as men. They have short, woolly hair, and have no hair on any part of their body, because they epilate themselves. 21. They have a kind of jacket made of parrot feathers woven together, and arranged so that the large penises of the wings and the tail form a circle on the kidneys, which gives them a bitter and ridiculous figure. Almost all men have the lower lip pierced with three holes through which they pass small stone cylinders two inches long. Women and children do not have this inconvenient ornament. 22. Add to this that they are entirely bare in front. Their color is rather olive-colored than black. Their king is called Cacique.
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: can someone find the Biblioteca Ambrosiana manuscript? Ill end the debate if anyone can find that manuscript
its too much controversy around the french version manuscripts
The Original text of the Amrbosian MS (In Italian, left pages, English Trans. at right ) The title pages here states "the Ambroisan MS" Some of the original handwritten pages can be seen on Getty Images. Below is the verbatim Italian exactly as on those pages
mangiorono et q^lli de que/ti /iche p que/to he venuta tal vzan/a. Non /e mangiano /ubito ma ogni vno taglia vno pezo et lo porta in ca/a metendola al fumo poi ogni 8. Jorni taglia vno pezeto mangian- dolo bruto lado c6 le altre cose p memoria degli /ui nemici Que/to me di//e Johane carnagio piloto q veniua c6 nuy el qHle era /tato in que/ta tera qua- tro anny Que/ta gente /e depingeno marauiglio- /amete tuto iL corpo et iL volto con foco in diuer/i a maniere ancho le done /ono [sono: doublet in orig- inal MS.^ to/i et /en/a barba perche /e la pelanno. Se ve/teno de ve/tituf de piume de papagalo c6 rode grande aL cuUo de Le penne magiore cosa ridicula ca/i tuti li homini eccepto le femine et f anciuli hano tre bu/i ne lauro de/oto oue portano pietre rotonde et Longue vno dito et piu et meno de fora pendente, no /onno del tuto negri ma oliua/tri portano
de/coperte le parte vergonio/e iL Suo corpo e /enza peli et co//i homini q^L donne Sempre Vano nudi iL Suo re e chiamato cacich anno infiniti//imi papagali et ne danno 8 ho lo p vno /pecho et gati
^ This 16th century Italian cannot be clearly translated by modern mechanical translators, above in the book is the James Alexander Robertson translation from the original Ambrosiana manuscript of Pigafetta, MS in Italian at left
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Piraha@Brazil & Yahgan@Tierra del Fuego & Tasmanians & Ojibwe all used bark canoes, indicating that they were pioneers to the regions. Wood hull dugout canoes followed at a later period when the hafted adze evolved.
While you're in Europe also stop off in Greece to back up all the Greek stuff you read in printed books and claimed to be what they said
Also, when you look at these things realize anybody could have written these things on paper and signed as so and so
Like the Gettysburg Address supposedly written in Lincoln's handwriting. How do we know that really is his handwriting ?
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^^^ there are some handwritten pages but I don't know how many. Look into this guetenberg.org and get back to me
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The below is not handwritten but look at this again. I'm showing two French versions side by side followed by the Italian side by side with English next to it. These are the same areas of text describing these Brazilians. Notice the key to all this being this same area in the text is one of the two mentions of the pilot in various spellings Iehan Caruagio aka Jean Carvajo aka Johanne Carnagio
and the other key is the plumes of the parrot. That name and the plumes of the parrot are in all of these texts. If you look at the right hand aside of the two French versions we have
FRENCH
"Ils ont les cheveux courts laineux, et n'on de poil sur aucune partie de leur corps parce qu'ils s'épilent."
ENGLISH
"They have woolly short hair, and do not have hair on any part of their body because they are plucked."
^^^ That english is not in the book, I did that on a translator. If you go to the left side which is another French version I have trouble transcribing that I suggest you try it. It's not the same wording but both of these versions are in French.
The place we are looking at in the test is after Johanne Carnagio is mentioned but before the parrot plumes.
Below the two French versions is the old Italian with English also in the book
ITALIAN
Que/ta gente /e depingeno marauiglio- /amete tuto iL corpo et iL volto con foco in diuer/i a maniere ancho le done /ono [sono: doublet in orig- inal MS.^ to/i et /en/a barba perche /e la pelanno.
ENGLISH
Those people paint the whole body and the face in a wonderful manner with firs in various fashions as the women do. The men are [ are: doublet in original manuscript] smooth shaven and have no beard for they pull it out. ________________
So we have what seems to be a similar amount of description but one of the French versions seems to be talking about short woolly hair.
Narrative and Critical History of America, Volume 2 edited by Justin Winsor, 1896
I believe that one of the French versions it is either a mistake, an embellishment or is some condition of straight hair that when short and is either uncombed or has some additive in it,
I say this because I have noticed that these Brazilian indigenous people always seem to have this very straight type of hair and some of these groups have been very isolated from modern people until very recently
You might also consider looking for a handwritten version of the French version where "wooly" hair is mentioned rather than a printed version you found
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posted
I don't think the wooly hair quote is a lie as the moors would still be fresh in the minds of the Euros at that time, unless they are referencing a decorative object then I'm inclined to assume they meant hair.
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quote:Originally posted by the questioner: ^^^ I don't want to base anything off of a hunch. This subject would not be conclusive to me unless i see the original Italian manuscript.
Did Justin Winsor see the original? Unless he had, he is in no position to say what is a mistake or not.
"Ils ont les cheveux courts et laineux" Premier voyage autour du monde, sur l'escadre de Magellan, pendant les ... By Antonio Pigafetta 1800 edition pg 18
"Ils ont les cheveux courts et laineux" Premier voyage autour du monde, sur l'escadre de Magellan, pendant les ... By Antonio Pigafetta 1800 edition pg 18
"Ils ont les cheveux courts et laineux" Premier voyage autour du monde, sur l'escadre de Magellan, pendant les ... By Antonio Pigafetta 1800 edition pg 18
"Ils ont les cheveux courts et laineux" Premier voyage autour du monde, sur l'escadre de Magellan, pendant les ... By Antonio Pigafetta 1800 edition pg 18
"Ils ont les cheveux courts et laineux" Premier voyage autour du monde, sur l'escadre de Magellan, pendant les ... By Antonio Pigafetta 1800 edition pg 18
The Onawo people found in Patagonia which their picture was taken by Martín Gusinde in 1919, are direct related to the African "Pende people" which live in Ngashi region-Congo. Some of them, left Africa 40 thousand years ago, and settled in Australia. In Australia they became the "Emu" people.
The Emu people of Australia, built large ships designed specifically to cross oceans and high seas, and to deal with large waves. You can see their ancient ships on Australia Rock paintings, which was dated as many thousands of years old. The Emu people of Australia, arrived in Patagonia by ship, by crossing the Pacific Ocean. They became miscegenated after the arrival of Mongoloid people.
In Patagonia the Emu people of Australia became Onawo people. However, the Pende people of Congo, the Emu, of Australia, and Onawo people of Patagonia, which belong to the same African ancestor, still painting their bodies with the same white color, and the same geometric design patterns. Anatomically, they still almost identical, even after thousands of years of interbreeding with different homo species.
Pende=Emu=Onawo.
-------------------- ---lnnnnn* Posts: 198 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Linda Fahr: To lioness & Mr. Clyde Winters
The Onawo people found in Patagonia which their picture was taken by Martín Gusinde in 1919, are direct related to the African "Pende people" which live in Ngashi region-Congo. Some of them, left Africa
The first picture you posted of Onawo male from Tierra del Fuego, doesn't looks like he has any admixture of Pende people. By he's facial symmetry and anatomy, he looks like he was mixed race of a mongoloid great grandmother with a Dutch sailor, which arrived in the region in 1600s AD.
Now..the Amerindian girl, certainly she is related to Pende people...
By the way...this African Pende male on the picture, is absolutely gorgeous. He has perfect facial symmetry. Beautiful big round eyes, perfect well developed homo sapiens lips and nose....Image the reaction of Neanderthal females, when he first out of Africa, arrived in the Middle East and beyond?...
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Now..the Amerindian girl, certainly she is related to Pende people...
The woman has straight hair. The Pende don't. Many Asians have flat noses and full lips yet are less genetically similar to Africans than are Europeans. Overlapping features between ethnic groups do not predict ancestry
I think you should search and study more about South American tribes, their origins, culture, interbreeding, and their phenotypes.
Tribes of South America, are an admixture of many peoples from Asia and Pacific Islands, which settled in Patagonia, South of South America, and Pacific coastal regions of South America and Africans which arrived from Atlantic Ocean and settle in North of South America and Central America.
The Onawo tribes in question, settled in the Patagonia Region, migrated from Northeastern of China, which were light skinned people. Actually they were white skinned, thick straight dark hair, and characterized by their Epicanthic fold - tight mongoloid eyes feature. And Australoids from the Pacific Islands, which the Pende people were one of their ancestors, including Aborigine Emu tribe from Australia which migrated to Patagonia as well.
There were over a dozen of tribes living in Patagonia region by the time the first European arrived in the 1500s. They were all related. Their phenotypes depended on degree of miscegenation among Australoids and light skineed Mongoloids tribes.
In South America countries of Uruguay, Paraguay and Brazil, pure African descendants of African slaves, married females from light skinned mongoloids tribes.
For example: A female of Mongoloid tribe member, married to an African slave descendant had 5 children. Some of their children born with straight dark thick hair and brown or light skin. Others born with curly or afro hair with black or dark brown skin. Some born with full developed African lips, others born with thin Mongoloid lips, or median size lips. Their eyes also varies in sizes and shapes, as well their heights, and so on...Therefore, before you write and want to imposed your own conclusions, you must acknowledge humans phenotypes results from miscegenations among South American mongoloid, Australoids tribes and Africans.
Now...I think you must updated yourself on DNA results of Australoids people mentioned by S.O.Y keita...because new DNA results from 2016 proved to be otherwise. Beside African Homo Sapiens, Australoids people has DNAs of Denisovan, Neanderthal, and another unidentified hominid. As I wrote about Pende people interbreed with different hominids species in his way out of Africa. Therefore, they are African descents as well.
Pacific Islanders Appear to Be Carrying The DNA of an Unknown Human Species
A third extinct human relative. BEC CREW 25 OCT 2016
posted
Now...I don't want to imposed my theory on anybody, which is, that an unidentified hominid in fact evolved from Orangutan, which is now native of Indonesia and Malaysia.
As a matter of facts, after European geneticists DNA tests in Europe started, they very quickly elevated Orangutan status to primate, and member of humans ancestors.
Observing dark skinned Australoid people with red hair, it was my conclusion.
By the way...Happy Holidays to everybody...I am gone for now...
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"Ils ont les cheveux courts et laineux" Premier voyage autour du monde, sur l'escadre de Magellan, pendant les ... By Antonio Pigafetta 1800 edition pg 18
^^^ Did you look at these links with handwritten pages on them?
which hand written document are you referring to in the links?
is the first link not an image of a handwritten document?
Show me
You still have not shown me any primary source where pigafetta understood or wrote in french. The manuscripts you provided were created by copyist.(possibly abridge versions)
posted
These are the problems with pigafetta's french manuscripts.
1. The French manuscripts that were presented does not mention the hair texture of the natives of Brazil. As careful historians, we must be sure that these manuscripts are not abridged versions of pigafetta's original work.
2. The writer of the french manuscript is assumed (on this forum)to be pigafetta himself, however we need primary sources to support such a claim. Primary sources that support pigafetta writing in french or that he personally wrote in french to give to monarchs of France.
3. The original Italian manuscript would be conclusive in supporting the 3 french manuscripts. Cross referencing them would be crucial in concluding how identical the french manuscript are to the original Italian. Without the Italian manuscript we cannot conclude that the french manuscript is identical to the original.
4. The french manuscripts are believed by many historians to be mere copies of the original french manuscript.(that is now lost) read page 18 of Magellan's Voyage: A Narrative Account of the First Circumnavigation By Antonio Pigafetta edited by R.A. skelton. (These 3 french manuscripts could be an abridge version of the original french manuscript. Now lost)
The argument is not rather the manuscripts are true to the original. (as the lioness continues to deflect towards) The arguement is rather the French manuscript is an abridge version of the original. As was previously pointed out, hair texture was never mentioned in any of the french manuscripts.
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: [QB] These are the problems with pigafetta's french manuscripts.
1. The French manuscripts that were presented does not mention the hair texture of the natives of Brazil.
what you presented that did was in French, wtf?
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
i want the original Italian manuscript not the printed version or copy
what you presented was printed, wtf ?
You are saying hair texture was mentioned in French, printed in a book and haven't even presented a hand written version of it
Also you don't seem to know what embellishment is, you assume everything is abridgment
Now go off and try to find some handwritten documents, why should I go looking for something you should be presenting ?
Another problem you have is if looking at a hand written document in an old version of a language you might not know how to translate it or know where the relevant potion of text occurs
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quote:Originally posted by the questioner: [QB] These are the problems with pigafetta's french manuscripts.
1. The French manuscripts that were presented does not mention the hair texture of the natives of Brazil.
what you presented that did was in French, wtf?
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
i want the original Italian manuscript not the printed version or copy
what you presented was printed, wtf ?
You are saying hair texture was mentioned in French, printed in a book and haven't even presented a hand written version of it
Also you don't seem to know what embellishment is, you assume everything is abridgment
Now go off and try to find some handwritten documents, why should I go looking for something you should be presenting ?
Another problem you have is if looking at a hand written document in an old version of a language you might not know how to translate it or know where the relevant potion of text occurs
How would you know it was embellished if you have never seen the original?
if you can show the original Italian than this argument would be more conclusive.
we can't say for certain that the woolly description was not in the original.
Carlo Amoretti claims to have seen the original. unless you have evidence from Amoretti himself that the french text had been embellished, you should not say or assume it was.
Even if it was embellished why would he use woolly hair instead of straight hair?
As I know you are Historian, I am posting links of the University of Brasilia - Brazil, studies done of South American Amerindian Tribes. Their names, culture, origin, interbreed with other existent tribes already settled in South America by the time of their arrival.
It is mostly related to Tupi-Guarani peoples, which arrived in South America by waves between 4000 and 500 years before European arrival in The America Continent.
Many of these people, left China, Mongolia, Japan India, during their ancient wars among their kingdoms, and foreign invasions.
I also think you would like to know more about Tupi-Guarani people, and their ancestors in Asia. One of their Ancestors is the Ainu people, actually living in regions of Japan and Siberia - Russia, and how they are related by Macro-Jê linguistic.
Japonese Tupi English kabe acapê wall ame ama rain anya anhá darkining arashi arassy storm kashi caxi sweets kuri curi cashew mi mi-mi seeds tataku tataca to snap sumire sumarê wild flowers ai-shuu au-ssub deep affection, profound love agete ajete certainly aranu rana false, wrong arai ara-á restless ari ayri J – ant T – small ao-mi o-bi J – greenish T – green ai-zou a-jó J – garded T – bag, sac ai ai-ai interval
I am adding an extra information of relations between Tupi-Guarani Amerindians tribes in Brazil and South America to tribes living in Philippines, ancient Greeks during 400BC, Cameroon-Africa, the Avar people from North Caucasus, and ancient Sumeria. Tupi-Guarani, is an federation of over hundred tribes which speak related languages, called "Tupi-Guarani".
List of South America Tupi-Gurani tribes related to those ancient peoples.
Kawayan people of Municipality of Bangued - Philippines and their African origins in Bangué Village located in the region Boumba-et-Ngoko - Yokadouma,Cameroon Africa. In this African region are native names such as -Yoko, Yum, Mindoriu, Yaounde and many more.
Monderun, Tupi-Guarani Tribe in Brazil related to Mindoriu - Cameroon.
Mbayae tribe Tupi-Guranai- related to Mbo people of Cameroon - West Africa.
Tupi-Guarani tribe Carios in English Carians also ancient Greek people.
Kadiweus or Caduceus Tupi-Gurani tribe, also related to ancient ancient Greek mythology.
Assurini - Tupi Guarani tribe - related to Assyrians. Is well known that Assyrians were in South America in ancient times.
This is few of South American tribe names, which arrived in South America, by Sea, from the Atlantic, and Pacific Ocean,l and ater on by the Bering Strait.
Interestingly also, is that other Tupi- Guarani tribe in Brazil given name such as Bang-u region name in North Eastern China, with is associate to Africa name Bangue.
Some tribes of Tupi-Guarani people are farmers. Their crops are cotton, corn, potatoes, cassava, nuts, fruits, and so on...Their farming methods are the same as Indians from India.Every year After harvest, they burn their farming lands.
Below is the two links from the Brasilia University.
posted
Ops, I forgot to write about the Tupi-Guranani people called "Ava" which means "Man".
Nowadays the majority of them, are an admixture with other tribes. They are living in Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Bolivia and Brazil.
The origin of Ava people in South America is unknown. What I knew about them, was that initially they were living in South of Argentina. Then, they migrated north and settled beside other tribes in different regions of South America.
Some of them, still black skinned, large flat face, straight hair, with average height 6'5 tall. They are not ugly, and anatomically proportional. They are naturally arrogant people.
The ones that did not mixed with other local tribes, are living in urban regions. I personally meet few of them. One, was living in Argentina, when he was visiting Rio de Janeiro-Brazil
In South America, in the past, they allied themselves with the Spaniards, against other tribes, and the Portuguese Army. They are known as well as Ava canoeiros, because they construct large canoes which can transport between 30 to 50 people at once.
Amazingly, I meet another one as well in Aberdeen Scotland. At first, I couldn't believe how the same human ethnicity was living in such different regions of the World. The one I meet in Scotland, told me, he was descendant of Asian Avar people, which was originally from North of Mongolia - Siberia, which started migrating west in 300ad, They were allies of the Huns which invaded Europe.
I also meet a community of them in south France. They were living in isolation. The males were very tall, but females were short. They were all dark skinned people, straight hair, arrogant and racists. Seems to me, that the people living in South France, was an admixture, of taller Avar males, with short Indian females, which arrived in the region from west of Pakistan, during Islamic conquest of Central Asia and India.
Therefore, my conclusion is that the black skinned people of South Argentina, which migrated to north of South America, were in fact, an ancient people of Eastern Asia. They were the result of mixed race among tall Africans from the Omo River Valley which migrated to Asia thru Ethiopia long ago, and mixed themselves with mongoloids producing tall males with dark skin and straight hair.
It is possible they left Eastern Asia, during war, or local invasion. Some migrated North, settled in North and Eastern of Mongolia, then later on migrated to Europe thru central Asia with the Huns. Another group went southeastern toward Japan, and from there sailed to South America, where they first settled in South of Argentina, and live as "wild men" in extreme cold weather over 800 years.
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