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Author Topic: 2017 article claims: Nubians an admixed group with gene-flow from outside of Africa
the lioness,
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http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006976&rev=2

Northeast African genomic variation shaped by the continuity of indigenous groups and Eurasian migrations
Nina Hollfelder, Carina M. Schlebusch, Torsten Günther, Hiba Babiker, Hisham Y. Hassan, Mattias Jakobsson

Published: August 24, 2017https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pgen.1006976

(excerpt)


Abstract

Northeast Africa has a long history of human habitation, with fossil-finds from the earliest anatomically modern humans, and housing ancient civilizations. The region is also the gate-way out of Africa, as well as a portal for migration into Africa from Eurasia via the Middle East and the Arabian Peninsula. We investigate the population history of northeast Africa by genotyping ~3.9 million SNPs in 221 individuals from 18 populations sampled in Sudan and South Sudan and combine this data with published genome-wide data from surrounding areas. We find a strong genetic divide between the populations from the northeastern parts of the region (Nubians, central Arab populations, and the Beja) and populations towards the west and south (Nilotes, Darfur and Kordofan populations). This differentiation is mainly caused by a large Eurasian ancestry component of the northeast populations likely driven by migration of Middle Eastern groups followed by admixture that affected the local populations in a north-to-south succession of events. Genetic evidence points to an early admixture event in the Nubians, concurrent with historical contact between North Sudanese and Arab groups. We estimate the admixture in current-day Sudanese Arab populations to about 700 years ago, coinciding with the fall of Dongola in 1315/1316 AD, a wave of admixture that reached the Darfurian/Kordofanian populations some 400–200 years ago. In contrast to the northeastern populations, the current-day Nilotic populations from the south of the region display little or no admixture from Eurasian groups indicating long-term isolation and population continuity in these areas of northeast Africa.

Author summary

Northeast Africa has geographic and historical links to Eurasia via the Middle East and the Arabian Peninsula, but the demographic history of the region itself has been more elusive. We investigate genomic diversity of northeast African populations and found a clear bimodal distribution of variation, correlated with geography, and likely driven by Eurasian admixture in the wake of migrations along the Nile. This admixture process largely coincides with the time of the Arab conquest, spreading in a southbound direction along the Nile and the Blue Nile. Nilotic populations occupying the region around the White Nile show long-term continuity, genetic isolation and genetic links to ancestral East African people. Compared to current times, groups that are ancestral to the current-day Nilotes likely inhabited a larger area of northeast Africa prior to the migration from the Middle East as their ancestry component can still be found in a large area. Our findings reveal the genetic history of Sudanese and South Sudanese people, broaden our knowledge on demographic history of humans, and quantify the impact of large-scale historic migration events in northeast Africa.


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Introduction

The Nile River Valley and northeast Africa have experienced a long history of human habitation. The region harbored some of the most ancient civilizations in the world and contains fossil finds of the earliest anatomically modern humans [1–3]. Agriculture has a long history in the Nile River valley, and crops of potential Near Eastern origin as well as sorghum found in Sudan have been dated to 3000BC [4]. Livestock was introduced into northeast African and Sudan in the 5th millennium BC (likely from the North) and pastoralism spread rapidly across sedentary agriculturalists who lived along the Nile as well as to the nomadic populations inhabiting the drier surrounding regions [4]. Following the introduction of agriculture and pastoralism, settlements started growing, which led to the forming of political units. In Nubia (roughly the northern parts of current-day Sudan), the Kingdom of Kerma emerged around 3000 BC. Nubia has successively been at the center of several ensuing states, and the historical records show interactions with neighboring states through trade and confrontation, possibly reaching back to predynastic times [4–6]. Modern-day Sudan and South Sudan cover parts of the Nile River and the joining of the Blue and the White Nile, areas that link the northern part of the Nile Valley and North Africa with East Africa. Today, these areas display great linguistic diversity, with Sudan and South Sudan housing 137 living languages [7], which belong to three of the four linguistic macro-families found on the African continent: Afro-Asiatic, Nilo-Saharan, and Niger-Congo.

Previous genetic studies focusing on human history in Sudan and South Sudan have used uniparentally inherited markers [8–10], low density polymorphic autosomal markers [11–17], or were only covering a limited number of populations [18]. These studies have found substantial genetic differentiation in northeast Africa and indications of migration and admixture. For instance, Tishkoff, Reed [18] investigated more than one hundred African populations using some 800 microsatellites, including six populations from Sudan and South Sudan and showed that eastern Africa harbors substantial amounts of genetic diversity. However, wide ranges of populations, representative of all the main linguistic groupings, in and around Sudan and South Sudan have not been studied in order to decipher population history using high-resolution genome-wide data.

In this study we genotyped some 3.9 million SNPs in 221 individuals from a total of 18 populations from South Sudan and Sudan to investigate population structure and admixture patterns, which we use to reconstruct the genetic history of this region of northeast Africa. We find a genetic differentiation within the Sudanese and South Sudanese groups that is driven by Eurasian admixture, which may have followed the Nile southward and coincides with the time of the Arab conquest.


Nilotic groups emerged from an ancestral group of East Africa

Among the populations from Sudan and South Sudan, the four Nilotic populations formed a notable population cluster based on the genome-wide data. They were genetically uniform with little genetic differentiation among themselves (pairwise FST values ≤ 0.0028, Fig 1B, S7A Fig). In the ADMIXTURE analyses, the Nilotic populations retained a specific ancestry component (blue), which is shared with other northeast African groups at low values of K, where most of the Sudanese populations have a substantial fraction of this ancestry (Figs 2 and S1–S6). Even at higher values of K, the Nilotes formed their own ancestry component, a component found in modest proportions in populations from Sudan and South Sudan. The Nilotes also appeared as one of the most common source populations for other Sudanese and South Sudanese populations (Figs 2 and 3A). We furthermore compare the affinity between the Nilotes and Neolithic European farmers (represented by an individual from the Linearbandkeramik (LBK)), using the 4,500 year old Mota individual from Ethiopia to represent an East African group that has not been affected by Eurasian admixture in the last 4,500 years [25]. Testing the population tree D(Ju|’hoansi,LBK;Mota,Nilote) shows no support for an affinity between Neolithic European farmers and Nilotes (S8A Fig), as can also be seen from the f4-ratio estimates of Eurasian ancestry in Nilotes (Fig 3B, S9A Fig). Previous studies of uniparental or few markers also found little support for incoming gene-flow to the Nilotic populations [9, 11, 15, 25], and, taken together with our results, Nilotic populations appear to have remained relatively isolated over time.

The Nilotes are predominantly pastoralist populations, they live in Uganda, Ethiopia, Kenya, Tanzania, and are the most prominent ethnicity in South Sudan. They are traditionally strongly endogamic which could account for low levels of admixture. In terms of specific Nilotic populations, the f3 test showed no significant signal of gene flow with external populations for the Nuer and Baria (Fig 3A), however, we detected indications of external gene flow from West Africa (YRI) into Dinka (f3 = -0.001038, Z = -5.283) and TSI to Shilluk (f3 = -0.002565, Z = -7.951, S2 Table). These observations taken together, suggest long term isolation and continuity between the current-day Nilotic populations and the ancestral populations of northeast Africa.

Little admixture in northeast Africa with Bantu-speaking groups

All the investigated Sudanese and South Sudanese populations, except the Hausa, showed almost no West African (orange in Fig 2) component or, at a higher K, Bantu component (Fig 2, yellow in S3 Fig) in the ADMIXTURE analysis. The Bantu migration that swept over most of sub-Saharan Africa 3–4 thousand years ago (kya) [26] did not cause massive admixture in northeast Africa, contrary to what has been found in many other sub-Saharan African regions, e.g. East Africa and southern Africa [18, 27, 28]. This expansion seems to have passed south of the Sudanese Nilotic populations in an eastward direction from West-Africa. The strongly endogamic Nilotic populations could have acted as a migration barrier for northeast Africa preventing admixture with Bantu-speaking groups of West African origin during the migrations of the Bantu expansion, potentially in addition to climatic barriers connected to the agriculture of the Bantu-speakers. Although there are a few Bantu speaking populations in South Sudan [29] that likely migrated during the Bantu expansion, they do not appear to have mixed much with local Nilotic groups.

The Afro-Asiatic speaking Hausa population from northeastern Sudan was the exception to the observation of little West African affinity in Sudan and South Sudan (Fig 1). The Hausa, originally of western Africa, comprises the largest West African population that have migrated to Sudan during the past 300 years, traditionally employed mainly in agricultural activities [30, 31]. In S11 Fig they cluster in between the West African Yoruba and Nzime, and the Darfurian/Kordofanian and Nilotic populations. This finding is consistent with previous analyses [18, 30, 32, 33]. Even though the ADMIXTURE analysis showed some level of local Nilotic genetic material (~30% at K11 and higher, Fig 2, S3 Fig), the f3 statistics did not provide significant evidence for admixture with Darfurian/Kordofanian and Nilotic populations. Using LD decay patterns [34], we estimate an admixture event in the Hausa to 31.2 ± 9.3 generations ago (Z = 3.34683) from a Eurasian source. This is before the historically documented settlement of the Hausa in the Sudan and it is still unknown if the Hausa populations of West Africa also show this admixture signal. These observations point to that the Hausa originated in West Africa and migrated recently to Sudan, where they have stayed relatively isolated from neighboring populations.

Nubians are an admixed group with gene-flow from outside of Africa

The Nubians inhabit the Nile valley in the arid desert of northern Sudan and speak Eastern Sudanic languages of the Nilo-Saharan linguistic family that are close to the languages spoken by Nilotic populations (Table 1, Fig 1A). The Nubian populations have a long history in the region, dating back to dynastic Egypt [5]. They showed little genetic differentiation among individuals and groups, with a maximum (across all pairwise comparisons) pairwise FST (Weir and Cockerham’s estimator) of 0.004513 between the Mahas and the Halfawieen (Fig 1B, S7A Fig). The FST values to the surrounding Arabic and Beja populations were also low, which hints at gene-flow or shared ancestry with the neighboring populations. Even though the Nubians and the Nilotes are linguistically closer to each other than to the Afro-Asiatic groups, the Nubians showed the greatest genetic differentiation (FST between 0.02 and 0.04) to the Nilotes (Fig 1, S7A Fig). To investigate whether this signal of genetic differentiation is driven by the Eurasian admixture into the Nubians (as seen in Fig 2), we created pseudo-‘unadmixed’ (in terms of not having Eurasian admixture) allele frequencies (see SI) and calculated Wright’s FST, which showed that an ‘unadmixed’ Nubian gene-pool is genetically similar to Nilotes (S7B Fig). The strongest signal of admixture into Nubian populations came from Eurasian populations (S10 Fig, S2 Table) and was likely quite extensive: 39.41%-47.73% (f4-ratio, Z-scores between 22.8 and 26.7 Fig 3B, S9 Fig). Interestingly, the Nubians showed the highest level of allelic richness, number of private alleles and shared private alleles (ADZE, between Danagla and Halfawieen, S12 Fig) among all Sudanese and South Sudanese groups. This observation together with a smaller total length of runs of homozygosity, between lengths of 0.5–1 kilobases, points to substantial admixture in Nubians (Fig 4). Hence, the Nubians can be seen as a group with substantial genetic material relating to Nilotes that later have received much gene-flow from Eurasians (likely Middle Eastern) and from East Africans


West-Eurasian migration from the north

All the populations that inhabit the Northeast of Sudan today, including the Nubian, Arab, and Beja groups showed admixture with Eurasian sources and the admixture fractions were very similar. The admixture component in the northeastern groups cluster with the greater European and Middle Eastern group assuming few clusters, and for greater number of assumed clusters, when a predominantly Middle Eastern cluster emerged, the admixture in northeastern Sudan connected to the Middle East (ADMIXTURE, Fig 2, f3, S10 Fig). According to historical and linguistic studies, and recent Y-chromosome data it has been suggested that the northeastern Sudanese populations especially Nubians and Beja were strongly affected by Eurasian migrations since the introduction of Islam from the Arabian Peninsula through Egypt and the Red Sea starting around 651 A.D [9, 35].

Assuming that the Nubian population is a mixture of an incoming Eurasian (TSI is used as a proxy) group and a resident group that is genetically similar to the current day Nilotes (Nuer is used as a proxy), first contact is dated using patterns of LD-decay [34] to roughly 56 generations ago for the Danagla (54.45 ± 10.34, Z = 5.26437) and the Mahas (58.35 ± 12.2, Z = 4.78402); the Halfawieen have received Eurasian admixture later, around 19 generations ago (19.31 ± 3.81, Z = 5.05949, S7 Table, Fig 3C). Assuming a generation time of 30 years, the admixture dates for Danagla and Mahas predate the Arab expansion in the 7th century, and may suggest that the migrations and admixture predate Islamic conquest. However, the confidence intervals overlap with the 7th century, and these admixture estimates largely coincide with the Arab expansion into the northeast of Sudan. It is known from historic sources that Arabic groups encountered the Nubians first in the 7th century, and were held back from advancing further into the Sahel until the fall of Dongola in 1315/1316AD [36] and the collapse of the Kingdom of Makuria. This is consistent with the later date for the admixture into Halfawieen and the Arabic populations of Sudan. Previous studies [37, 38] have found a similar pattern for populations of Maghreb, where admixture times coincide with the time of the historically documented Arab conquest.

The Eurasian migrations also appear to have expanded and migrated into northeast Africa where they admixed with local populations giving rise to Arabic-speaking groups (Shaigia, Gaalien and Bataheen) that today inhabit areas of central Sudan (Fig 2). We further tested the source of admixture into the central Sudan Semitic speaking Arab groups (Shaigia, Gaalien and Bataheen) using ancient samples from Europe (LBK) and East Africa (Mota) and the population history of D(Ju|’hoansi,LBK;Mota,X), (where the Ju|’hoansi is an outgroup Khoe-San population from Namibia), which suggested Eurasian admixture into central Sudan Arab groups (see SI, S8A Fig). This migration and admixture occurred later than the events that brought Eurasian gene-flow into the Nubians (S3 Table, Fig 3C). Interestingly, when we overlay the Eurasian genetic component onto a geographic map, it appears as if the expansion could have spread along the Blue Nile (Fig 3B and 3C), showing a gradient of higher to lower admixture proportion and older to younger admixture dates from northern Sudan to South Sudan. The Eurasian admixture proportion in the Arab populations is high, ranging between ~40%–48% (SI, Fig 3B and S9A Fig). The presence of a northeast African genetic signature similar to Nilotic populations and the recent admixture signal from Eurasia indicates that the populations in central Sudan that self-identify as Arab were originally a local northeast African population (similar to the Nubians and the Beja) that mixed with a Eurasian population during the Arab expansion, or possibly earlier. However, the mixed groups kept the language and culture of the incoming migrants.

Beja groups, who generally reside in eastern areas of Sudan close to the sea, show high non-African admixture in all tests (Figs 2 and 3B, S1–S6 and S8–S10 Figs). The Beni Amer also showed a strong admixture signal with a Eurasian population as well as a shared ancestry component with the Somali population (pink component in Fig 2), which suggest admixture with the East African Cushitic-speaking populations, perhaps as a result of migration along the coast. We dated the admixture of the Beja populations with the Cushitic-speaking Somalian population [39], and the admixture dates go far back in time, about 59 generations ago for the Hadendowa and about 68–75 generations for the Beni Amer (S3 and S4 Tables). The large proportion of the East African (pink in Fig 2) component is therefore not a result of recent admixture of East Africans into the Beni Amer. Admixture of non-Africans into the Beni Amer was also dated to an early event about 107.7 ± 24.4 generations ago (Z = 4.41711) and a younger event, 34.2 generations ago (± 9.6, Z-score = 3.55532 Fig 3C, S7 Table) suggesting an early migration from Eurasian into these coastal African populations, possibly across the sea. However, these old admixture events into the Beni Amer could be driven by admixture from the Cushitic-speaking populations of the Horn of Africa, which themselves have received 30–50% non-African ancestry about 100 generations ago, or 3kya [22, 40].


The population history of the Copts and their relation to Egyptians

The Copts represent a well-known ethnic group, generally practicing Christianity, which migrated from Egypt to Sudan around 200 years ago, settling in a predominately Muslim region. The ADMIXTURE analyses and the PCA displayed the genetic affinity of the Copts to the Egyptian population (Fig 2, S1–S6, S11 and S13–S16 Figs). Assuming few clusters, the Copts appeared admixed between Near Eastern/European populations and northeastern Sudanese and look similar in their genetic profile to the Egyptians. Assuming greater number of clusters (K≥18), the Copts formed their own separate ancestry component that was shared with Egyptians but can also be found in Arab populations (Fig 2). This behavior in the admixture analyses is consistent with shared ancestry between Copts and Egyptians and/or additional genetic drift in the Copts [41, 42].

The Copts and the Egyptians have a historically documented shared history. We further investigate the relationships of the Copts and the Egyptians to other groups. All population histories tested in every possible combination of either Copts or Egyptians, and Bedouin and Nuer, with Ju|’hoansi as outgroup to the others were rejected (D-statistic, |Z|>5.5), which points to a non-tree-like history of the Copts and Egyptians. Our results instead indicate that they are an admixed population of at least one sub-Saharan population and one Eurasian population, but had subsequent admixture with additional groups. The population tree that has the most support finds the Nuer (Nilotic) as an outgroup to the Bedouin and Copts (D(Ju|’hoansi,Nuer;Bedouin,Copts) = 0.0103, Z = 5.550). The Copts were estimated to be of 69.54% ± 2.57 European ancestry and the Egyptians of 70.65% ± 2.47 European ancestry (f4-ratio, Fig 3B, S9A Fig).

The Egyptians and Copts showed low levels of genetic differentiation (FST = 0.00236, Fig 1B), lower levels of genetic diversity (S17 Fig) and greater levels of RoH (Fig 4) compared to other northeast African groups, including Arab and Middle Eastern groups that share ancestry with the Copts and Egyptians (Fig 2) [41]. A formal test (D(Ju|’hoansi,X;Egypt,Copt)), did not find significant admixture into the Egyptians from other tested groups (X) as the explanation of the (admittedly low level of) differentiation between the two groups, and the Copts and Egyptians displayed similar levels of European or Middle Eastern ancestry (S8A and S8B Fig). Taken together, these results point to that the Copts and the Egyptians have a common history linked to smaller population sizes, and that the Copts have remained relatively isolated since the arrival to Sudan with only low levels of admixture with local northeastern Sudanese groups (S8B Fig).


Conclusion

We have shown that there has been long-term migration into Sudan, moving in a southward direction possibly along the Nile and the Blue Nile. From historic documents, we know that the ancient Egyptians were in contact with the ancient Nubians that inhabited the Nile area in the north of modern-day Sudan. Our study suggests that the later migration followed along the Nile, likely being held up by the Nubians until the fall of the Kingdom of Makuria in the 14th Century [4]. Following that historic event, the Arab expansion spread further southward, which can be seen in a succession of admixture events that occur more recent in time as one travels south. Many populations in Sudan that self-identity as Arab, displayed a population history of local Sudanese populations that have admixed with incoming Eurasian populations, and adopted the language and culture of the incoming migrants. In fact most populations from northeast Sudan (Nubian, Arab and Beja groups) seem to be a mixture of Middle Eastern and local northeast African genetic components, although only the Arab groups shifted to the Semitic languages. Cultural and linguistic replacement following the Arab conquest has been described previously in populations of the Maghreb [37, 38, 43].

The Eurasian admixture had less impact on the populations of western Sudan and South Sudan. The Darfurian and Kordofanian populations showed overall less admixture from non-African groups than the northeastern populations (and the limited admixture that does exist is more recent in time). The Nilotic populations have stayed largely un-admixed, which appears to be the case in Ethiopia too, where a similar observation has been made for the Gumuz [23, 44], an Ethiopian Nilotic population that is genetically similar to South Sudan Nilotes. Northeast African Nilotes showed some distinction from an ancient Ethiopian individual (Mota, found in the Mota Cave in the southern Ethiopian highlands), which suggests population structure between northeast and eastern Africa already 4,500 years ago. The modern-day Nilotic groups are likely direct descendants of past populations living in northeast Africa many thousands of years ago.

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lamin
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Long piece but full of tendentious nonsense. This topic has beaten more times than a dead horse.

The whole exercise is otiose because even if true--and it is not--one can say the same about all other groups external to Africa.

Example: the European genome is a combination of indigenous haplogroups and African haplogroups.


Egyptian Panoply of Peoples

The 2 African groups are obvious. The outsiders are also obvious.

https://www.google.com/search?q=egyptian+panoply+of+races&client=firefox-b&dcr=0&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjc9PqDn7nYAhURKVAKHf7xDPMQ7AkIMA&biw=1067&bih=491#imgrc= 4WkNLPo_ytDdqM:

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lamin
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Ancient Nubia and People

https://www.google.com/search?q=taharka+ancient+nubia&client=firefox-b&dcr=0&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjMqpa6rrnYAhWOaFAKHU7cAn0Q_AUICigB&biw=1067&bih=491

The research fools don't seem to understand that Africans migrated out of Africa and remained phenotypically Africans even mutations led to new haplogroups. Some Africans are R and others are E, does that make them different population clines?

Or the Andaman Islanders(Indian Ocean)
https://www.google.com/search?q=andaman+people++images&client=firefox-b&dcr=0&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjq9KnYsLnYAhUOZVAKHWkNCvUQ7AkIPg&biw=1067&bih=491

Solomon Islanders(Pacific)
https://www.google.com/search?q=solomon+islanders+images&client=firefox-b&dcr=0&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiw2tSWsbnYAhVFIlAKHfxnA_AQ7AkIPg&biw=1067&bih=491

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Firewall
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Here some info about modern nubians below and my views.

Topic: Nubian aDNA: what the hell is stopping ES members from claiming CL Fox 1997?
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008387;p=1

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by lamin:


The research fools don't seem to understand that Africans migrated out of Africa and remained phenotypically Africans even mutations led to new haplogroups. Some Africans are R and others are E, does that make them different population clines?


A cline is a gradual change in characteristics from one population to another.
E and R don't originate in the same place

However the article is not a discussion of hapolgroups.

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Ish Geber
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Eurasian migrations, who else? [Big Grin]
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Andromeda2025
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Interesting results, ok. the Sudanese people are very beautiful and so is thier culture but they come in a very broad range clearly an admixed society but also cleary African. but what always strikes me is how similar to African Americans they look as a population.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB4zjxZzaWg

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Andromeda2025
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These unafrican Sudanese Nubians are going full Kemet/Nubia lol good vid great music, they look like average AA's with varying degrees of admixture maybe a lil horner but not much.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTcZmMUlCFU&index=200&list=PLoFDYkUloZdgPE8CpOv0lheF_nKpKlndx

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Andromeda2025:
These unafrican Sudanese Nubians are going full Kemet/Nubia lol good vid great music, they look like average AA's with varying degrees of admixture maybe a lil horner but not much.

 -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTcZmMUlCFU&index=200&list=PLoFDYkUloZdgPE8CpOv0lheF_nKpKlndx

The interesting thing about the Sudanese is that the Colloquial Sudanese Arabic words they speak are closely related to ancient Egyptian.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by Andromeda2025:
These unafrican Sudanese Nubians are going full Kemet/Nubia lol good vid great music, they look like average AA's with varying degrees of admixture maybe a lil horner but not much.

 -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTcZmMUlCFU&index=200&list=PLoFDYkUloZdgPE8CpOv0lheF_nKpKlndx

The interesting thing about the Sudanese is that the Colloquial Sudanese Arabic words they speak are closely related to ancient Egyptian.
AfroAsiatic was born in Africa and Arabic derives from it. Arabic script is related to the various Scripts that evolved in the Nile Valley and Arabia. Earliest evidence for white linen shawls is seen in Nile Valley art long before any "arabs" in Africa. Nile Valley ancient traditions of worship centering around Ptah (the word) influenced the development of the Judaic religions (Islam, Judaism and Christianity). Earliest evidence of skull caps in Nile Valley associated with Ptah and common dress. Earliest use of Incense in the Nile Valley for religious festivals. Earliest evidence for bowing and prostration as part of religious worship in Nile Valley..... And on and on and on.
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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by Andromeda2025:
These unafrican Sudanese Nubians are going full Kemet/Nubia lol good vid great music, they look like average AA's with varying degrees of admixture maybe a lil horner but not much.

 -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTcZmMUlCFU&index=200&list=PLoFDYkUloZdgPE8CpOv0lheF_nKpKlndx

The interesting thing about the Sudanese is that the Colloquial Sudanese Arabic words they speak are closely related to ancient Egyptian.
AfroAsiatic was born in Africa and Arabic derives from it. Arabic script is related to the various Scripts that evolved in the Nile Valley and Arabia. Earliest evidence for white linen shawls is seen in Nile Valley art long before any "arabs" in Africa. Nile Valley ancient traditions of worship centering around Ptah (the word) influenced the development of the Judaic religions (Islam, Judaism and Christianity). Earliest evidence of skull caps in Nile Valley associated with Ptah and common dress. Earliest use of Incense in the Nile Valley for religious festivals. Earliest evidence for bowing and prostration as part of religious worship in Nile Valley..... And on and on and on.
Colloquial Sudanese Arabic is not really standard Arabic, it appears to me to be an African language. In communication with the Sudanese brothers it is clear that many Nile Valley ceremonies depicted in Egyptian murals are identical to traditional Sudanese ceremanies today especially during weddings.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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lamin
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quote:
Interesting results, ok. the Sudanese people are very beautiful and so is thier culture but they come in a very broad range clearly an admixed society but also cleary African. but what always strikes me is how similar to African Americans they look as a population.
Very obvious that the Eurocentric brainwashing is very alive and well. he proble is that people just don't think logically and intelligently about many matters including the one now being discussed.

First, Africa comprises some 21%(include the offshore islands such as Madagascar, Cape Verde, etc.) of the world's landmass. The climates and ecologies are variable and as a result, flora and fauna have developed distinct subspecies.

The same applies to Africa's human populations. It is foolish and unintelligent Eurocentric thinking to assume that variations in the human phenotype must entail so-called mixtures from outside of Africa if such phenotypes find biased favor with Eurocentrics.

Evolutionary pressures have produced the generic phenotype of East Asians--especially in eye shape/form, hair type and facial structure. Yet the San in Southern Africa carry the same eye form structure, yet there is no proven thesis that East Asians back-migrated to Southern Africa to spread that particular eye form trait.


Given that Africa is the birthplace of humanity with Homo Sapiens Africanus being the source of ALL the world's phenotypes and body morphologies, it's the foolish thinking of the Eurocentric mind-set that assumes a priori that an African physiognomy that has some partial resemblance to some phenotype outside of Africa derives from that source.

Eurocentrics foolishly believe that there is some "ideal type true negro" which is intrinsically African and that deviations from such signify non-African mixtures. This thinking which is still prevalent in some quarters is just a modern-day continuation of the Seligman Hamitic hypothesis.

All this mode of thinking is corrected easily by the way the Ancient Egyptians portrayed themselves and other Africans in their panel of known races. One might note that the dominant haplogroups--the major genetic indices of lineages. For Africa the vast majority of people are E for males and L for females. In the case of Nubia/Sudan there is J which has its highest incidence there. There is also R with its high incidence in the Camerooon, Guinea Bissau and elsewhere.

Given the fact that modern humans lived in Africa for some 75% of their time on earth, it is clear that when a trait is found both in Africa and elsewhere, it is logical to think that the trait in question derives from Africa. Thus in the case of J, it is safe to argue that J in the Arabian Peninsula derives from J in Africa(Nubia/Sudan). Same for R in the Cameroon. The same holds for E in Europe.

Egyptian Panel of Peoples
There are 2 distinct Africans and others from outside of Africa--West Asians and Europeans.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ancient+egyptian+panel+of++races&client=firefox-b&dcr=0&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjy8aajgtzYAhXoJ8AKHa0zB4MQ7AkIMg&biw=1067&bih=491 #imgrc=2QOCvawMjhd4pM:

Nubian Civilization
Strictly African phenotypes

https://www.google.com/search?q=taharka+ancient+nubia+images&client=firefox-b&dcr=0&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjf64iIg9zYAhVIL8AKHVIBA9AQ7AkIRg&biw=1067&bih=491

Modern Sudanese
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b&dcr=0&biw=1067&bih=491&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=BLRdWvrZL8nJgAaG4pzoDQ&q=miss+khartoum+beauty+images&oq=miss+khartoum+beauty+images&gs_l=psy- ab.12...98703.101112.0.104083.7.7.0.0.0.0.1287.1287.7-1.1.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..6.0.0....0.S-f3Vr0eJ2E

Modern Ibos(Nigeria)

https://www.google.com/search?q=ibo+ladies+images&client=firefox-b&dcr=0&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi0ksfRhdzYAhWhCsAKHdPjCFgQ7AkIRQ&biw=1067&bih=491

Modern Hausa
https://www.google.com/search?q=hausa+ladies++images&client=firefox-b&dcr=0&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjAhdP9hdzYAhWhJsAKHae-AOMQ7AkIQA&biw=1067&bih=491

Miss Rwanda Competitors

https://www.google.com/search?q=hausa+ladies++images&client=firefox-b&dcr=0&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjAhdP9hdzYAhWhJsAKHae-AOMQ7AkIQA&biw=1067&bih=491

Miss Dakar(Senegal)
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b&dcr=0&biw=1067&bih=491&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=m7ZdWrqlGOGFgAaOkIRA&q=miss+senegal++images&oq=miss+senegal++images&gs_l=psy-ab.12...15517.18 779.0.24562.12.10.0.0.0.0.1817.1817.8-1.1.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..11.0.0....0.rUMPnTHlPtE

Miss Black America

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b&dcr=0&biw=1067&bih=491&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=PrddWoHdFeHSgAbDo5XICQ&q=miss+black+america+2015+images&oq=miss+black+america+2015+images&gs_ l=psy-ab.12...34529.36096.0.39733.5.5.0.0.0.0.2354.2354.9-1.1.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..4.0.0....0.6G0aWkSiLqo


Now "Qui est la plus belle"? That's the title of a beauty pageant they have every year in Dakar, Senegal

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by lamin:


Given the fact that modern humans lived in Africa for some 75% of their time on earth, it is clear that when a trait is found both in Africa and elsewhere, it is logical to think that the trait in question derives from Africa.


It's assumption because in the tens of thousands of years people lived outside of Africa there was ample time for new haplogroups to form and then for such people to back migrate into Africa.

The origin of a haplogroup is estimated by
a) frequency
b) diversity
c) oldest human remains carry the group

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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by Andromeda2025:
These unafrican Sudanese Nubians are going full Kemet/Nubia lol good vid great music, they look like average AA's with varying degrees of admixture maybe a lil horner but not much.

 -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTcZmMUlCFU&index=200&list=PLoFDYkUloZdgPE8CpOv0lheF_nKpKlndx

The interesting thing about the Sudanese is that the Colloquial Sudanese Arabic words they speak are closely related to ancient Egyptian.
AfroAsiatic was born in Africa and Arabic derives from it. Arabic script is related to the various Scripts that evolved in the Nile Valley and Arabia. Earliest evidence for white linen shawls is seen in Nile Valley art long before any "arabs" in Africa. Nile Valley ancient traditions of worship centering around Ptah (the word) influenced the development of the Judaic religions (Islam, Judaism and Christianity). Earliest evidence of skull caps in Nile Valley associated with Ptah and common dress. Earliest use of Incense in the Nile Valley for religious festivals. Earliest evidence for bowing and prostration as part of religious worship in Nile Valley..... And on and on and on.
Colloquial Sudanese Arabic is not really standard Arabic, it appears to me to be an African language. In communication with the Sudanese brothers it is clear that many Nile Valley ceremonies depicted in Egyptian murals are identical to traditional Sudanese ceremanies today especially during weddings.
Yes. I have seen wedding videos on Youtube from Northeast Africa like that as well...

This one from Eritrea:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-plIxwhg4Q

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lamin
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quote:
It's assumption because in the tens of thousands of years people lived outside of Africa there was ample time for new haplogroups to form and then for such people to back migrate into Africa.
Either you fail to see the tendentious Eurocentric racism here or you are just being deliberately coy. Just old wine in new bottles.

If the Andaman Islanders or New Guineans decided to back migrate to Africa some 10,000 years ago and settled in what is now Tanzania,little or no research would be done by the Eurocentrics on this. Their goal is to concoct specious proofs that points of civilization so perceived in Africa or in the case of other naive viewers, points of phenotypical interest could not have originated in Africa

This was the case of Ancient Egypt with such fraudulent experts such as Breasted and his fictitious "dynastic race" theory, according to which an Asiatic race entered Egypt to establish the Egyptian dynasties.


Seligman's Hamitic hypothesis was of the same tendency. Quick witted Asiatics entered Africa and overpowered slower-witted Africans to establish Africa's high cultures and civilizations.


The irony of all of this is that it was Africans themselves who left Africa some 60-70KYA to settle in and introduce human cultures to the rest of the world. Just amusing that the great grandchildren are trying to deny the works of their African patriarch.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by lamin:

Either you fail to see the tendentious Eurocentric racism here or you are just being deliberately coy. Just old wine in new bottles.

If the Andaman Islanders or New Guineans decided to back migrate to Africa some 10,000 years ago and settled in what is now Tanzania,little or no research would be done by the Eurocentrics on this. Their goal is to concoct specious proofs that points of civilization so perceived in Africa or in the case of other naive viewers, points of phenotypical interest could not have originated in Africa

This was the case of Ancient Egypt with such fraudulent experts such as Breasted and his fictitious "dynastic race" theory, according to which an Asiatic race entered Egypt to establish the Egyptian dynasties.


Seligman's Hamitic hypothesis was of the same tendency. Quick witted Asiatics entered Africa and overpowered slower-witted Africans to establish Africa's high cultures and civilizations.


The irony of all of this is that it was Africans themselves who left Africa some 60-70KYA to settle in and introduce human cultures to the rest of the world. Just amusing that the great grandchildren are trying to deny the works of their African patriarch. [/QB]

Our study suggests that the later migration followed along the Nile, likely being held up by the Nubians until the fall of the Kingdom of Makuria in the 14th Century [4]. Following that historic event, the Arab expansion spread further southward, which can be seen in a succession of admixture events that occur more recent in time as one travels south. Many populations in Sudan that self-identity as Arab, displayed a population history of local Sudanese populations that have admixed with incoming Eurasian populations, and adopted the language and culture of the incoming migrants. In fact most populations from northeast Sudan (Nubian, Arab and Beja groups) seem to be a mixture of Middle Eastern and local northeast African genetic components, although only the Arab groups shifted to the Semitic languages. Cultural and linguistic replacement following the Arab conquest has been described previously in populations of the Maghreb [37, 38, 43].

The Eurasian admixture had less impact on the populations of western Sudan and South Sudan. The Darfurian and Kordofanian populations showed overall less admixture from non-African groups than the northeastern populations (and the limited admixture that does exist is more recent in time). The Nilotic populations have stayed largely un-admixed, which appears to be the case in Ethiopia too, where a similar observation has been made for the Gumuz [23, 44], an Ethiopian Nilotic population that is genetically similar to South Sudan Nilotes. Northeast African Nilotes showed some distinction from an ancient Ethiopian individual (Mota, found in the Mota Cave in the southern Ethiopian highlands), which suggests population structure between northeast and eastern Africa already 4,500 years ago. The modern-day Nilotic groups are likely direct descendants of past populations living in northeast Africa many thousands of years ago.

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lamin
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Blah, blah BS have you any wool?
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THE problem is the descendants of the Arab tribesmen who left Arabia and crossed the Red Sea and entered Africa, took on an ideology that led them to have ethnic genocide killing the men and taking the women and impregnating them.

These differences are at the root of the partition of the Sudan and the Genocide of the Black tribes in DarFur province. This Pan-Arab Nationalism in Africa is driving anti-"Black" movements all over Northern Africa.

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capra
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quote:
Originally posted by lamin:
Very obvious that the Eurocentric brainwashing is very alive and well. he proble is that people just don't think logically and intelligently about many matters including the one now being discussed.....
Given the fact that modern humans lived in Africa for some 75% of their time on earth, it is clear that when a trait is found both in Africa and elsewhere, it is logical to think that the trait in question derives from Africa. Thus in the case of J, it is safe to argue that J in the Arabian Peninsula derives from J in Africa(Nubia/Sudan). Same for R in the Cameroon.

Um, the TMRCAs of Y haplogroups are not randomly distributed though the history of modern humans. We have strong reason to think that J and R in fact came into existence during that last 25% when modern humans *were* outside of Africa. This argument is completely illogical.
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

Nubians are an admixed group with gene-flow from outside of Africa

Just like the Egyptians. Okay tell us something we don't know.

This admixture exposed years ago by studies showing Nubians to have significant frequencies of Y-DNA hg J just like other North Sudanese populations like Sudanese Arabs and Beja. Even Hassan et al. has confirmed this over and over again in previous papers.

Your point is? I hope you are not suggesting the modern Nubian gene pool reflects that of the ancient Nuians. [Embarrassed]

To everyone else without an agenda Ethio Helix has written good articles on the genetics of Nubians and their relation neighboring Africans. Here are a couple below:

Sudanese Arabs, Beni-Amer Beja and Nubians: Autosomal DNA data

Sudanese Arab and Nubian mtDNA is mostly non-Eurasian?

--------------------
Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan.

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This what Wikipedia had to say.
Modern Nile Sudanese Nubians

quote:


According to Y-DNA analysis by Hassan et al. (2008), around 44% of Nile Nubians in Sudan carry the haplogroup J. The remainder mainly belong to the E1b1b clade (23%). Both paternal lineages are also common among local Afroasiatic-speaking populations. The next most frequent haplogroups borne by Nubians are the Western European-linked R1b clade (10%) and the Eurasian lineage F (10%), followed by the archaic African B haplogroup (8%) and the Europe-associated I clade (5%).

Maternally, Hassan (2009) observed that approximately 83% of their Nubian samples carried various subclades of the Africa-centered macrohaplogroup L. Of these mtDNA lineages, the most frequently borne clade was L3 (30.8%), followed by the L0a (20.6%), L2 (10.3%), L1 (6.9%), L4 (6.9%) and L5 (6.9%) haplogroups. The remaining 17% of Nubians belonged to sublineages of the Eurasian macrohaplogroups M (3.4% M/D, 3.4% M1) and N (3.4% N1a, 3.4% preHV1, 3.4% R/U6a1).[31] Analysing a different group of Nubian individuals inhabiting Sudan, Non (2010) found a significantly higher frequency of around 48% of the Eurasian macrohaplogroups M and N. Of these mtDNA lineages, 16% of the examined Nubians belonged to the M clade (around 9% to M1), with the rest bearing N subhaplogroups (including approximately 8% R0, 3% T1a, and 1% H). The remaining 52% of Nubians carried various Africa-centered macrohaplogroup L(xM,N) derivatives, with about 11% of individuals belonging to the L2a1 subclade.

Dobon et al. (2015) identified an ancestral autosomal component of West Eurasian origin that is common to many modern Nubians and Afroasiatic-speaking populations in the Nile Valley and Horn of Africa, including Sudanese Arabs. Known as the Coptic component, it peaks among Egyptian Copts who settled in Sudan over the past two centuries. The scientists associate the Coptic component with Ancient Egyptian ancestry, without the later Arabian influence that is present among other Egyptians. Hollfelder et al. (2017) also analysed various populations in Sudan and similarly observed close autosomal affinities between their Nubian and Sudanese Arab samples.


In 2015, Sirak et al. also analysed the ancient DNA of a Christian-period inhabitant of Kulubnarti in Nubia. The scientists found that the medieval specimen was most closely related to Middle Eastern populations. Further excavations of two Early Christian period (AD 550-800) cemeteries at Kulubnarti, one located on the mainland and the other on an island, revealed the existence of two ancestrally and socioeconomically distinct local populations. Ancient DNA analysis of specimens from these burial sites found that the mainland samples predominantly carried European and Near Eastern mtDNA clades, such as the K1, H, I5, and U1 lineages; only 36.4% of the mainland individuals belonged to African-based maternal haplogroups. By contrast, 70% of the specimens at the island burial site bore African-based clades, among which were the L2, L1 and L5 mtDNA haplogroups.


I am still too not clear with the modern nubians in egypt but it is clear most nubians in sudan do not have arab admixture.By the way to make clear R1b in sudan comes from blacks and has nothing to do with white europeans or white asians.
In that study they are really talking about nubians from nile valley in sudan not hill nubians or nubians from darfur,so the study is is misleading.It's not talking about all nubians in sudan.
If the nubians from from noba and darfur region the outside admixture rate goes down.
Note-most noba are not nubians,but some are.They are called hill nubians.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubians

Note-some say most modern nubians of egypt do not admixture from white but it's ould be alarge grou that do and even if most do have admixture and large number do not.

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Firewall
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Kushites speakers afro-asian?

I was wondering if anyone read this from nubian wikipedia from history of the nubians.
It says the kushites were afro-asiatic speakers and afro-asians.
That's not true by the way.

From Wikipedia
quote:


Shabti figurine of the Kushite King Senkamanisken ca. 643-623 BC (left), marble portrait of a Nubia denizen ca. 120-100 BC (right). The commemorative stela of the Axumite King Ezana indicates that two distinct population groups inhabited ancient Nubia: the Afroasiatic-speaking Kasu (Kushites) who were related to the neighbouring ancient Egyptians, and a Sudanic-speaking population that was instead related to Nilotes.


and
quote:


Historiolinguistic analysis indicates that the early inhabitants of the Nubia region, during the C-Group and Kerma cultures, were speakers of languages belonging to the Berber and Cushitic branches of the Afroasiatic family. They were succeeded by the first Nubian language speakers, whose tongues belonged to the separate Nilo-Saharan phylum.Accordingly, a 4th-century victory stela belonging to King Ezana of the Kingdom of Aksum contains inscriptions describing two distinct population groups dwelling in ancient Nubia: a "red" Kasu population, who are believed to have been Cushitic speakers related to the neighbouring ancient Egyptians, and a "black" Sudanic-speaking population that was instead related to Nilotes. The existence of two such distinct population groups in Nubia has also been confirmed through genetic analysis (see genetics).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubians


The above was posted in nubians link.It was never there before.
It has been deleted recently but it may come back so look out for the false info above.
Clearly kushites were nilo-saharan,not afro-asian.
Someone sneek in afro-asiatic part.
Who ever wrote that above got the facts wrong.

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capra
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Meroitic is unclassified. it is quite likely Nilo-Saharan, but reasonable arguments have also been made for Afro-Asiatic.

AFAIK there is no record of what the Kushites spoke before Meoritic. it is obviously geographically plausible that at least some of them spoke Afro-Asiatic. connections to Beja and Berber have been made but on slender evidence, they certainly should not be presented as undisputed fact. but neither can we say they were clearly Nilo-Saharan only.

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lamin
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The specious and repetitive errors made by these ideologically entrapped Eurocentric researchers is that they foolishly don't recognize that Africa is just a landmass--that is 20% of the world's surface and that intra-Africa admixtures have been occurring for some 70,000 years and before that.

Again, the stupidly racist Eurocentric assumption is that any form of "civilization" on the African continent must have its roots outside of the artificially designated continent of Africa. ...Just as in the U.S. where Texas and New Mexico are artificially designated as separate states.

This is just very old wine in new bottles. Examples: the impressive Ancient Egyptian dynastic civilization must have been due to some spurious "dynastic race" coming in from Asia. The same for Seligman's spurious Hamitic
hypothesis. Then we have dreamy Eurocentric researchers claiming that the Benin Bronzes were of European origin.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00020185108706840?journalCode=cast20

Add to that the curious and false assumption that the Zimbabwe ruins were of Arab or Persian origin.
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/aug/18/great-zimbabwe-medieval-lost-city-racism-ruins-plundering

The same pernicious is at work as mediocre researchers seek to promote the spurious idea that Nubian civilization must have been due to Asiatics.

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capra
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some early 20th century racists had theories involving Eurasian migration into Africa, therefore all theories involving Eurasian migration into Africa are false.

impeccable logic.

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Tukuler
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Unlike most Diasporans,
Euros build up on what
their previous generations
laid down.


Same slanted research.
Same biased results.

Some go for madeover Okey Doke.
Others're getting a Clue.

Fool me once shame on you.
Fool me twice shame on me!


Once bitten twice shy.

--------------------
I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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capra
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so is the general opinion around here that ancient Nubians lacked MENA type ancestry?
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Tukuler
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Which Nubia?

Exactly when?

Why is it so important to establish
seemingly non-continental whatever
for Nubians, Kushites, and ancient
Sudanese?

So called MENA?
Which MENA?
Morocco? Syria, Iran??
Egypt is MENA.
Sudan is MENA.
Nubia is in Egypt
and in Sudan.

Nubian ancestry
is as MENA as
anybody else is.

No?


Speaking of MENA
why not Turkey
why not Afghanistan
They were on the Nat'l
Geo MidEast I used to
have on my office wall.

https://suyunrengi.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/ortadogu_etnik_yapisi.jpg

https://openseadragon.github.io/openseadragonizer/?img=http://i.imgur.com/FrFBTNf.jpg

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I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
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capra
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Which Nubia? Exactly when?

any of it, plus the rest of Sudan too. not expected to be homogeneous. after the Mesolithic probably.

quote:
So called MENA? Which MENA?
whatever gives the admixture signal of Tuscan, or Pre-Pottery Neolithic B, or Copt, or Bedouin, or whatever else, in East Africa. could be one thing, could be lots of things, don't what it is or wouldn't have to ask. could be 110% African, i don't care. MENA is shorthand.

quote:
Why is it so important to establish
seemingly non-continental whatever for Nubians, Kushites, and ancient Sudanese?

well none of this is going to cure cancer, but we like to learn about it anyway.

ok, we find lots of this MENA ancestry in Sudan and the Horn of Africa today, and a bit of it further south. it is a relatively distinctive tracer of some ancient population movements (none of which have to be 'pure' anything, to be clear). when and where? one route would go with pastoralists from Egypt through Sudan (Neolithic), thence Atbara (Atbai) into Eritrea and South Sudan (?) to Lake Turkana (Nderit).

but is this actually viable? i don't know, so i ask. (why do i ask here, you'd have to consult a pyschiatrist probably.)

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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by capra:
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Which Nubia? Exactly when?

any of it, plus the rest of Sudan too. not expected to be homogeneous. after the Mesolithic probably.

quote:
So called MENA? Which MENA?
whatever gives the admixture signal of Tuscan, or Pre-Pottery Neolithic B, or Copt, or Bedouin, or whatever else, in East Africa.
quote:
[url=emph]Why is it so <important to establish
seemingly non-continental whatever for Nubians, Kushites, and ancient Sudanese?
[url]

know, so i ask. (why do i ask here, you'd have to consult a pyschiatrist probably.)

Sorry I don't share the enthusiasm for non-
Continental intruders in Africans at the
expense of what Africans are themselves.

No other peoples are defined by late non-
formative infusion onto the long ago
previously existing stock.

Not interested in Hamitites/Black-Whites
under whatever guise as essential elements
of African peoplehood.

Plenty here are. They can help you.

And if genetics in fact supports an
iteration of 19th/20th century
anthropology of every innovation in
Africa is due to invaders or invader
admixed African people then it is what
it is and supremacist colonialist science
was right all along, Africans are incapable
of advancement on their own without help, eh?

If that's true and factual
I just have to live with it,
but -- Tuscany as MENA?


BTW
Is the 3k migration from the Arabian Peninsula
sex biased? Did the Habesh originate in Djebuti/
Eritrea/Ethiopia and return with Peninsular
females?

--------------------
I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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capra
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don't know why anyone needs to be 'defined' as anything. don't know why anyone would be an essential element of African peoplehood, or what that even means.

some guys bringing goats and barley to Africa would not imply all fucking civilization and advancement being due to non-Africans. why do we have to leap to some 100 year old bullshit immediately.

PS it was Tuscany in one study because they had no more suitable references.

PPS i don't know. MENA mtDNA frequency in the Horn of Africa seems to track pretty closely to autosomal proportion suggesting not much sex bias either way. Y hgs all over the place as they tend to be.

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Tukuler
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One sourcing for Tuscan in Nubia

 -

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I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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capra
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lol, i think we can rule out Roman POWs as the main source.

don't take it so literally. non-Africans are pretty interchangeable in the genetic big picture, as a consequence of the whole Out-of-Africa thing.

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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:
Originally posted by capra:
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Which Nubia? Exactly when?

any of it, plus the rest of Sudan too. not expected to be homogeneous. after the Mesolithic probably.

quote:
So called MENA? Which MENA?
whatever gives the admixture signal of Tuscan, or Pre-Pottery Neolithic B, or Copt, or Bedouin, or whatever else, in East Africa.
quote:
[url=emph]Why is it so <important to establish
seemingly non-continental whatever for Nubians, Kushites, and ancient Sudanese?
[url]

know, so i ask. (why do i ask here, you'd have to consult a pyschiatrist probably.)

Sorry I don't share the enthusiasm for non-
Continental intruders in Africans at the
expense of what Africans are themselves.

No other peoples are defined by late non-
formative infusion onto the long ago
previously existing stock.

Not interested in Hamitites/Black-Whites
under whatever guise as essential elements
of African peoplehood.

Plenty here are. They can help you.

And if genetics in fact supports an
iteration of 19th/20th century
anthropology of every innovation in
Africa is due to invaders or invader
admixed African people then it is what
it is and supremacist colonialist science
was right all along, Africans are incapable
of advancement on their own without help, eh?

If that's true and factual
I just have to live with it,
but -- Tuscany as MENA?


BTW
Is the 3k migration from the Arabian Peninsula
sex biased? Did the Habesh originate in Djebuti/
Eritrea/Ethiopia and return with Peninsular
females?

In other words how the F*ck did non Africans come do dominate Sudan, some of the blackest people in Africa and not leave light skin in ancient times? The AE consistently portrayed the Sudanese as jet black but somehow we are supposed to believe that came from Eurasia too?

Seriously?

And of course MENA only came about as a result of the defeat of the Ottoman Empire which controlled this area. Europeans didn't call it that previously as mostly Europeans coulnt' go there before the 1800s. And after World War 1 the terms really came into its fullest use.


And these people wonder why folks look at them like clowns.

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lamin
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quote:
[b]In other words how the F*ck did non Africans come do dominate Sudan, some of the blackest people in Africa and not leave light skin in ancient times? The AE consistently portrayed the Sudanese as jet black but somehow we are supposed to believe that came from Eurasia too? [b]
The subconscious assumption by many is that blacks who show intellectual superiority carry "white genes" somewhere in their genotype. This was the case of Philip Emeagwali, who won the a Gordon Bell prize for computing in 1989. Some American reporters wrote that his phenotype showed "white genes".

Same for Nubia. Nubians produced an impressive civilization long before Greece and Rome, therefore, they must have been admixed with Eurasian genes.

Yet the AEs portrayed them as being very dark--in general--though many were not.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:From_Giovanni_Battista_Belzoni-_Egyptian_race_portrayed_in_the_Book_of_Gates.jpg

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the lioness,
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
In other words how the F*ck did non Africans come do dominate Sudan, some of the blackest people in Africa and not leave light skin in ancient times? The AE consistently portrayed the Sudanese as jet black but somehow we are supposed to believe that came from Eurasia too?


I don't know what Doug is reacting to

Sudanese Arabs are the majority population of Sudan.

The topic article states:
quote:


Northeast African genomic variation shaped by the continuity of indigenous groups and Eurasian migrations
Nina Hollfelder,

We find a genetic differentiation within the Sudanese and South Sudanese groups that is driven by Eurasian admixture, which may have followed the Nile southward and coincides with the time of the Arab conquest.

We investigate genomic diversity of northeast African populations and found a clear bimodal distribution of variation, correlated with geography, and likely driven by Eurasian admixture in the wake of migrations along the Nile. This admixture process largely coincides with the time of the Arab conquest, spreading in a southbound direction along the Nile and the Blue Nile


Furthermore many of the Hg J harboring Arabs already have somewhat dark skin
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the lioness,
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Christians and Muslims in Sudan

Christians and Muslims: 543-1821

Nubia has Christian neighbours to the north and to the southeast from the 4th century, when Egypt formally adopts the religion (along with the rest of the Byzantine empire) and when the ruler of Ethiopia is converted to Christianity by Frumentius. But it is another 200 years before Dongola, by now the main kingdom in Nubia, is brought within the Christian fold.

In about543 the king of Dongola is converted to the monophysite version of Christanity, associated in particular with the Coptic church of Egypt and Ethiopia. A few years later, in about 569, the orthodox Christianity of the Byzantine empire reaches Mukarra, a neighbouring kingdom to the south.



During the following century the Christians of Egypt and north Africa succumb to the expansionist vigour of Islam. But Nubia is left free to follow its new Christian path, thanks partly to a treaty agreed in 652. In this year Muslim Arabs invade the northern part of the region from Egypt. But they agree to withdraw on condition that they are sent an annual tribute of 400 slaves.

The treaty holds for more than six centuries, during which the trade routes bring many Muslims south into Nubia. But Muslim raids begin in earnest in the 1270s during the reign of Baybars, the energetic Mameluke sultan of Egypt. In 1315 the annual tribute is finally abolished and a Muslim is placed on the throne of Dongola.



For the next five centuries the Muslim rulers of the Sudan are sometimes the representatives of a powerful administration in Egypt (for example in the early Ottoman years, after 1517). But they are more often tribal dynasties, managing to assert control for a while over a territory more extensive than their immediate local area.

This changes in 1821, when the the region is forcefully taken in hand by the most aggressive ruler of Egypt since the time of Baybars - the Ottoman viceroy Mohammed Ali.



Egyptian rule: from1821

In 1820 Mohammed Ali sends two armies south into the Sudan, each commanded by one of his younger sons. By 1821 they have conquered sufficient of the territory to establish themselves in military headquarters on the point of land formed by the confluence of the Blue and White Niles. The long narrow shape of the camp, coming to a point where the waters join, gives it the name 'elephant's trunk' - or Khartoum in Arabic.

A few years later Khartoum is made the administrative centre of an Egyptian province in the Sudan, acquiring the status of a capital which it and Omdurman, on the opposite bank, have retained ever since.



Though at first seen as part of the Ottoman empire, the independence claimed by Mohammed Ali means that the Sudan becomes once again what it has been in ancient times - the southern province of Egypt. And Egypt steadily claims more and more of the surrounding territory.

From 1846 there are Egyptian officials in the Red Sea ports of Suakin and Mits'iwa. And in 1869 Samuel Baker returns to the southern Sudan, this time with an army, to annexe the vast region known as Equatoria on behalf of the khedive of Egypt (now Ismail, a grandson of Mohammed Ali). But Egyptian control remains tenuous in much of this region. And it is made particularly unwelcome by the western influences to which Ismail inclines.



One cause of friction is the secular nature of Ismail's westernized administration, which is deeply offensive to the traditionally pious Muslims of the Sudan. Another is the policy, inspired by western pressures but fully accepted in Cairo, of putting an end to the slave raiding and trading which is a central feature of the Sudanese economy.

When Baker marches south into Equatoria, as the khedive's governor general, the suppression of the slave trade is part of his brief - together with the imposition of order in some very unruly regions. Four years later the same two tasks still confront his rather more effective successor in this role, Charles Gordon.



General Gordon accepts in 1873 the khedive's appointment as governor general of Equatoria. His role is extended in 1877 to cover the whole of the Sudan. In six years of ceaseless effort, employing the decisive vigour for which his Chinese exploits have already made him famous, Gordon subdues rebellious groups in many different regions of the Sudan.

On his return to England, in 1880, he appears to leave a Sudan in which the Egyptian garrisons have the province well under control. But the situation is tranformed a year later by the emergence of a charismatic religious leader who takes advantage of the widespread discontent of the local Muslims.


Read more: http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=aa86#ixzz58qVsH9pr

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capra
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
In other words how the F*ck did non Africans come do dominate Sudan, some of the blackest people in Africa and not leave light skin in ancient times? The AE consistently portrayed the Sudanese as jet black but somehow we are supposed to believe that came from Eurasia too?

well Doug, there are some facts you seem to have overlooked. it turns out that a key part of MENA is not actually in Eurasia. and that not all Eurasians are in fact light-skinned. also, it seems skin colour in the past was not necessarily what it is now. furthermore that the population of ancient Sudan might just have included different people in different times and places. and also that Ancient Egyptians hadn't quite got around to inventing photography and could conceivably have stylized their depictions on occasion.

but other than those details a crushing argument, dude.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by lamin:


The research fools don't seem to understand that Africans migrated out of Africa and remained phenotypically Africans even mutations led to new haplogroups. Some Africans are R and others are E, does that make them different population clines?


A cline is a gradual change in characteristics from one population to another.
E and R don't originate in the same place

However the article is not a discussion of hapolgroups.

See, you are lying again. Either E and R came from outside of Africa ie Eurasia (same region), or both originated in Africa.


The only thing population genetics has to offer is the show how many alleged back-migrations have taken place, and of it goes back to legendary (racist) history books, of which most is based on prejudice mythological, part fantasy and colonial one-sided reasoning. That is the premise and has been the premise from the start.

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
In other words how the F*ck did non Africans come do dominate Sudan, some of the blackest people in Africa and not leave light skin in ancient times? The AE consistently portrayed the Sudanese as jet black but somehow we are supposed to believe that came from Eurasia too?


I don't know what Doug is reacting to

Sudanese Arabs are the majority population of Sudan.

The topic article states:
quote:


Northeast African genomic variation shaped by the continuity of indigenous groups and Eurasian migrations
Nina Hollfelder,

We find a genetic differentiation within the Sudanese and South Sudanese groups that is driven by Eurasian admixture, which may have followed the Nile southward and coincides with the time of the Arab conquest.

We investigate genomic diversity of northeast African populations and found a clear bimodal distribution of variation, correlated with geography, and likely driven by Eurasian admixture in the wake of migrations along the Nile. This admixture process largely coincides with the time of the Arab conquest, spreading in a southbound direction along the Nile and the Blue Nile


Furthermore many of the Hg J harboring Arabs already have somewhat dark skin

I wonder, when are you going to post about the Abbasynian empire, which stretched as far as the north of the near east. It is kind of disappointing coming from a self proclaimed Africa expert. This one-side white-babble is detrimental.

The still unanswered question remains, how is it possible this doesn’t reflect in physical anthropology? What is it about this mystery?

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by lamin:
quote:
[b]In other words how the F*ck did non Africans come do dominate Sudan, some of the blackest people in Africa and not leave light skin in ancient times? The AE consistently portrayed the Sudanese as jet black but somehow we are supposed to believe that came from Eurasia too? [b]
The subconscious assumption by many is that blacks who show intellectual superiority carry "white genes" somewhere in their genotype. This was the case of Philip Emeagwali, who won the a Gordon Bell prize for computing in 1989. Some American reporters wrote that his phenotype showed "white genes".

Same for Nubia. Nubians produced an impressive civilization long before Greece and Rome, therefore, they must have been admixed with Eurasian genes.

Yet the AEs portrayed them as being very dark--in general--though many were not.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:From_Giovanni_Battista_Belzoni-_Egyptian_race_portrayed_in_the_Book_of_Gates.jpg

This is fundamentally true. If we study the history of this reasoning we see a clear pattern. And this reasoning goes back centuries. The exclusion of black people in academia is therefore a fundamental problem they feel they have to taccle all the time. Sheik Anta Diop wrote about his racist experience, and we see how he has been attacked. All this “back migration” they argue about, is due to the claim on ancient Egypt. I already have posted how these studies are “fixed”.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Either E and R came from outside of Africa ie Eurasia (same region), or both originated in Africa.



why would they both have to originate on the same continent?
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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by lamin:
quote:
[b]In other words how the F*ck did non Africans come do dominate Sudan, some of the blackest people in Africa and not leave light skin in ancient times? The AE consistently portrayed the Sudanese as jet black but somehow we are supposed to believe that came from Eurasia too? [b]
The subconscious assumption by many is that blacks who show intellectual superiority carry "white genes" somewhere in their genotype. This was the case of Philip Emeagwali, who won the a Gordon Bell prize for computing in 1989. Some American reporters wrote that his phenotype showed "white genes".

Same for Nubia. Nubians produced an impressive civilization long before Greece and Rome, therefore, they must have been admixed with Eurasian genes.

Yet the AEs portrayed them as being very dark--in general--though many were not.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:From_Giovanni_Battista_Belzoni-_Egyptian_race_portrayed_in_the_Book_of_Gates.jpg

 -
^ from Jari

In all fairness the study authors just about
boundary 'admixture' to the times of foreign
invasions, iirc. This is no different than
Chancellor Williams (1974).

But the general public won't discern ancient
from Christian era and later Nubians. That's
how dialectics work, saying something without
actually saying it, that subconscious assumption.

I got no idea if Meroe had any Euro resident
aliens or house of goods more or less
permanently settled foreign agents.


If this fresco isn't just a boast, this is the
only art historically suggesting possibility
of even a hint of absorbing Euro genomes. I
can't imagine his chances for mating though.

 -


Oh, I forgot about possible Maryanu (Eurasian
charioteers) serving in Wawat and/or Kush.

 -

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the lioness,
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This is right there in the author summary just below the abstract and the point is restated several times in the article


" This admixture process largely coincides with the time of the Arab conquest, spreading in a southbound direction along the Nile and the Blue Nile. "

--Northeast African genomic variation shaped by the continuity of indigenous groups and Eurasian migrations
Nina Hollfelder, 2017

_______

So far I have not seen any mainstream layman's news article about this, It's actually not anything new Sudanese Arabs are the majority population of Sudan.

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 -


BAD-F-210453-0000: Ba statue of the Viceroy Maloton, from Karanog, Nubia, Meriotic Period, sandstone African, located in the Egyptian National Museum, Cairo, ( Now in Nubian Museum)
Karanog, Grave 187


http://www.unesco.org/culture/museum-for-dialogue/item/en/86/ba-statue-of-the-viceroy-maloton

Ba-Statue of the Viceroy Maloton


The statue of the Viceroy Maloton was found in tomb 187 of Karanog, the site which was the capital
of Lower Nubia in the Meroitic Period, around the 2nd- 3rd century AD. The tomb of this man identified by a tablet, contained other objects, weapons and vessels; one of which was decorated with agricultural scenes.

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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by capra:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
In other words how the F*ck did non Africans come do dominate Sudan, some of the blackest people in Africa and not leave light skin in ancient times? The AE consistently portrayed the Sudanese as jet black but somehow we are supposed to believe that came from Eurasia too?

well Doug, there are some facts you seem to have overlooked. it turns out that a key part of MENA is not actually in Eurasia. and that not all Eurasians are in fact light-skinned. also, it seems skin colour in the past was not necessarily what it is now. furthermore that the population of ancient Sudan might just have included different people in different times and places. and also that Ancient Egyptians hadn't quite got around to inventing photography and could conceivably have stylized their depictions on occasion.

but other than those details a crushing argument, dude.

MENA is a geopolitical term created after WWI. It has nothing to do with history or anthropology.

And obviously it cant be used to claim that ancient Sudanese weren't black like they are today even with so-called "Arab" mixture. To even sit here and try and use a geo-political term created less than 100 years ago as some kind of "source" of what people where where 5000 years ago is stupid is the point.

quote:

The Middle East: The Way It Is and Why

By Meredith Friedman

February 10, 2016

Most investors know what an emerging market is. Some might even be able to offer a pretty good definition of what puts the “emerge” into emerging markets. But ask about the Middle East, and no one really knows what it is.

Out of sheer necessity, the name “Middle East” was invented at the start of the 20th century. The need for a name was anchored in a geographic puzzle: how to distinguish the region between the Near East and the Far East. Depending on whom you ask, credit for coining the term “Middle East” goes to either the American military or the British government. Either way, the area’s new identity was determined by outsiders.

The term Near East originally referred to the Ottoman Empire, while the Far East meant East Asia. When the Ottoman Empire disintegrated, it was vital to find a new term for the area that is today Turkey. The name “middle east” was popularized in 1902 by US Naval strategist Alfred Thayer Mahan in an article he authored that ran in the National Review. It has since entered the global lexicon as a term that everyone knows yet few can quite define.

http://www.mauldineconomics.com/this-week-in-geopolitics/the-middle-east-the-way-it-is-and-why

That term is meaningless in a pure geographic sense. If there is a Middle East why is there no Middle West? What about Middle South? This nonsense term has absolutely no bearing on the fact that Africans in what is now Sudan have been crossing into Arabia since before the terms Arabia or Sudan even existed or even the concept of an Arab. And of course they have been blacker than black since then as well as certainly no mixture with any Eurasians would have introduced the darkest skin tones found in any part of Africa either, either now or 5000 years ago.

And certainly the 300,000 year history of black Africans moving around and evolving diversity in Africa before even a human existed anywhere else does not need the presence of any others from anywhere else with some made up geographic name to explain it.

So if we are going to tell the story lets tell the full story.

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lamin
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Northern Sudanese-unvarnished. The best way to profile a population is to study its members in groups.

https://www.google.com/search?q=khartoum+people+++images&client=firefox-b-1&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwixu92usdbZAhVDHqwKHUX6ARkQ7AkIQg#imgrc=pAxKEwa8BUPs4M:

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=8NudWsrpDIuitQXUkLoY&q=khartoum+school++girls++images&oq=khartoum+school++girls++images&gs_l=psy-ab.3...77968.9642 9.0.96573.59.30.1.0.0.0.509.770.2-1j5-1.3.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..56.2.519.0..0j0i67k1.3928.g_SaD2SyGEY#imgrc=3de2cUZAgDqs3M:

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capra
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
MENA is a geopolitical term created after WWI. It has nothing to do with history or anthropology.

who cares when it was invented? i am using it now to refer to what i said i'm using it refer to. that's what words are for.

having some ancestry from beyond the Sahara would not prevent ancient Sudanese (or for that matter ancient Egyptians) from being 'black'.

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