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Author Topic: Bantu migration from Sudan?
Askia_The_Great
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I use to look at this argument as pseudo-Afrocentric nonsense and dismissed it as so until I had a number of good discussions with a good YouTuber in keep in touch with. I want to make it clear that I am not using this argument to say that we of the diaspora "descend from de kingz!" Its a true possibility that I don't even have Bantu ancestry, especially from these groups that claim that they come from Nile, Egypt or Nubia. Nor am I some Bantu supremacist saying Ancient Egypt was created by Bantus because it was NOT. I have not really seen any thread on here discuss this in depth(and yes I google searched topics for this on ES) and so wanted to make this thread where we discuss it in depth.


Anyhow, I feel this discussion has not been touched upon a lot, hell it seems to be neglected. I've been doing a lot of research on this theory to see how "true" it is. As far as most of the Bantu homeland being Cameroon, Southeast Nigeria or Gabon there really no true consensus on this and the archaeological data to support the Cameroon region is lacking. And its said that the person who came up with the Bantu migration from Cameroon/Gabon did not "dedicate" himself to it.

Going on.. I know many of us seen these maps from Ferg Somo.
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 -

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Like Ferg Somo I now believe Bantu people most likely migrated from out of the Sudanic region and not Egypt itself. For one Bantus migrating directly out of Egypt does not really work well, because the Ancient Egyptians never recorded such large scale migration from out of Egypt going south. Second I feel the Sudanic region is the best fit, because not only has the Sudanic region always been a melting pot of different Africans(and hell it still is), but such migration would explain why E-M2 is in Upper Egypt but absent in Sudan.
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E-M2n to me is interesting because it is already present in Upper Egypt. people merely can not simply dismiss it as it being from the Bantu migration because one it came from the Green Sahara before there was any Bantu speakers.

Can all of this explain the high STR score of the 18th dynasty in South Africa DNA tribes database for South Africa? Can it explain Ramses the third E1b1a? Who knows? To me that's a discussion for another time.

But getting to a more important part I find it amazing that all these many Bantu groups and I just ONE or TWO, but MANY claim a migration from the Nile Valley or Egypt(again most likely the Sudan). These people being the Bamileke, Zulus, Luhya, Baganda, Nyarwanda, Rundi of Burindi, Kikuyu, groups of Bantu speakers from Tanzania, Mozambique, Congo, Zambia and Malawi all claim a migration from near Egypt. Also one poster(don't want to name drop him without his permission) has noted to me that Bantu language shares some similarities with Egyptian hieroglyphics.

Why isn't any of this taken into account? Why are these oral traditions by these MANY Bantu groups ignored? I'm just curious thats all..

But I will admit that this theory does run into some trouble. Some people claim there were two migrations one from Cameroon and one form the Nile Valley. If that's the case then why do they all speak the same Bantu language? Like I said MANY Bantu groups make this claim, but oral traditions can be a bit slippery... Finally is there any cultural similarities between groups from the Nile Valley and Bantu people today?

Whatever the case may be I feel more autosomal DNA tests on the Ancient Egyptians can open up this puzzle. But I will say IF repeat IF this theory is true it will spell a doomsday for Eurocentrics.

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BrandonP
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I do believe the ancestors of the Bantu, and other Niger-Congo-speaking Africans, would have intermingled with those of ancient Egyptians and Nubians in the Green Sahara. And this probably would have resulted in admixture and cultural exchanges between all these populations.

If you look at this graph Swenet posted in the other thread, there is a Yoruba-like ancestry present in Egypt and the adjacent Fertile Crescent. Some of this might be attributable to the slave trade, but who's to say the Green Sahara couldn't have been a factor as well? It would have to postdate the Neolithic though since it's not present in the "ancient" (prehistoric?) Anatolian or Greek samples indicated here.

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At the same time, I would take some of the oral traditions with a grain of salt since Egypt is a very prestigious civilization and many Bantu people today probably want to claim it as part of "their" heritage.

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xyyman
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Ahem! Swenet pilfered that chart from my thread on ESR. FYI.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Askia_The_Great
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Good post Nodnarb.

quote:
Originally posted by Nodnarb:
I do believe the ancestors of the Bantu, and other Niger-Congo-speaking Africans, would have intermingled with those of ancient Egyptians and Nubians in the Green Sahara. And this probably would have resulted in admixture and cultural exchanges between all these populations.

I have this same agreement too.

quote:
Originally posted by Nodnarb:
If you look at this graph Swenet posted in the other thread, there is a Yoruba-like ancestry present in Egypt and the adjacent Fertile Crescent. Some of this might be attributable to the slave trade, but who's to say the Green Sahara couldn't have been a factor as well?


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Interesting map!

But according to the slave trades and historic texts, there seems to be no evidence of slaves from West Africa ever being in Egypt. No slaves from the Arab world were ever linked from the Trans-Sahara trade.

"Except for the Zandj (black slaves) from lower Iraq, no large body of blacks historically linked to the trans-Saharan slave trade existed anywhere in the Arab world ... The high costs of slaves, because of the risks inherent in the desert crossing, which would have not permitted such a massive exodus... In this connection, it is significant that in the Arabic iconography of the period, the slave merchant was often depicted as a man with a hole in his purse. Until the Crusades the Muslim world drew its slaves from two main sources: Eastern and Central Europe (Slavs) and Turkestan. The Sudan only came third. "
- web page Africa from the Seventh to Eleventh Century, UNESCO, 1988

If it was due to slavery it most likely came from East Africa and not West Africa as that was where most of the Arab slave trade was taking place, but even so I doubt the lineage you talk of is even due to that.

quote:
Originally posted by Nodnarb:
At the same time, I would take some of the oral traditions with a grain of salt since Egypt is a very prestigious civilization and many Bantu people today probably want to claim it as part of "their" heritage. [/QB]

True, but Ferg Somo mostly talks of a Sudanic origin and not Egypt. And I kinda doubt Bantu groups who live in rural villages would know in depth of the "greatness" of Egypt.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:


Like Freg Somo I now believe Bantu people most likely migrated from out of the Sudanic region

when?
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BrandonP
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quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
[QB]Interesting map!

But according to the slave trades and historic texts, there seems to be no evidence of slaves from West Africa ever being in Egypt. No slaves from the Arab world were ever linked from the Trans-Sahara trade.

"Except for the Zandj (black slaves) from lower Iraq, no large body of blacks historically linked to the trans-Saharan slave trade existed anywhere in the Arab world ... The high costs of slaves, because of the risks inherent in the desert crossing, which would have not permitted such a massive exodus... In this connection, it is significant that in the Arabic iconography of the period, the slave merchant was often depicted as a man with a hole in his purse. Until the Crusades the Muslim world drew its slaves from two main sources: Eastern and Central Europe (Slavs) and Turkestan. The Sudan only came third. "
- web page Africa from the Seventh to Eleventh Century, UNESCO, 1988

If it was due to slavery it most likely came from East Africa and not West Africa as that was where most of the Arab slave trade was taking place, but even so I doubt the lineage you talk of is even due to that.

Interesting. I have read that the usual practice was to castrate the male slaves, so any gene flow the slave trade would have contributed would probably come from the women. But wouldn't most of them have been concubines for rich elites? I would be surprised if these slaves had that much impact on the general Islamic populations.
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Askia_The_Great
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quote:
Originally posted by Nodnarb:
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
[QB]Interesting map!

But according to the slave trades and historic texts, there seems to be no evidence of slaves from West Africa ever being in Egypt. No slaves from the Arab world were ever linked from the Trans-Sahara trade.

"Except for the Zandj (black slaves) from lower Iraq, no large body of blacks historically linked to the trans-Saharan slave trade existed anywhere in the Arab world ... The high costs of slaves, because of the risks inherent in the desert crossing, which would have not permitted such a massive exodus... In this connection, it is significant that in the Arabic iconography of the period, the slave merchant was often depicted as a man with a hole in his purse. Until the Crusades the Muslim world drew its slaves from two main sources: Eastern and Central Europe (Slavs) and Turkestan. The Sudan only came third. "
- web page Africa from the Seventh to Eleventh Century, UNESCO, 1988

If it was due to slavery it most likely came from East Africa and not West Africa as that was where most of the Arab slave trade was taking place, but even so I doubt the lineage you talk of is even due to that.

Interesting. I have read that the usual practice was to castrate the male slaves, so any gene flow the slave trade would have contributed would probably come from the women. But wouldn't most of them have been concubines for rich elites? I would be surprised if these slaves had that much impact on the general Islamic populations.
Indeed.

But like I said more autosomal work needs to be done to get a fuller picture imo.

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Askia_The_Great
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:


Like Freg Somo I now believe Bantu people most likely migrated from out of the Sudanic region

when?
I personally think multiple waves of migrations.
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DD'eDeN
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Any linguistic tie-in between Benue and Bantu?

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xyambuatlaya

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:


Like Freg Somo I now believe Bantu people most likely migrated from out of the Sudanic region

when?
quote:


STRUCTURE analysis of the Africa data set indicated 14 ancestral clusters (Fig. 5, B and C, and figs. S15 to S18). Analyses of subregions within Africa indicated additional substructure (figs. S19 to S29). At low K values, the Africa-wide STRUCTURE results (fig. S15) recapitulated the PCA and worldwide STRUCTURE results. However, as K increased, additional population clusters were distinguished (4): the Mbugu [who speak a mixed Bantu and Cushitic language (30), shown in dark purple]; Cushitic-speaking individuals of southern Ethiopian origin (light purple); Nilotic Nilo-Saharan–speaking individuals (red); central Sudanic Nilo-Saharan–speaking individuals (tan); and Chadic-speaking and Baggara individuals (maroon). At K = 14, subtle substructure between East African Bantu speakers (light orange) and West Central African Bantu speakers (medium orange), and individuals from Nigeria and farther west, who speak various non-Bantu Niger-Kordofanian languages (dark orange), was also apparent (Fig. 5, B and C). Bantu speakers of South Africa (Xhosa, Venda) showed substantial levels of the SAK and western African Bantu AACs and low levels of the East African Bantu AAC (the latter is also present in Bantu speakers from Democratic Republic of Congo and Rwanda).


Our results indicate distinct East African Bantu migration into southern Africa and are consistent with linguistic and archeological evidence of East African Bantu migration from an area west of Lake Victoria (28) and the incorporation of Khoekhoe ancestry into several of the Southeast Bantu populations ~1500 to 1000 years ago (31).


High levels of heterogeneous ancestry (i.e., multiple cluster assignments) were observed in nearly all African individuals, with the exception of western and central African Niger- Kordofanian speakers (medium orange), who are relatively homogeneous at large K values (Fig. 5C and fig. S15). Considerable Niger-Kordofanian ancestry (shades of orange) was observed in nearly all populations, reflecting the recent spread of Bantu speakers across equatorial, eastern, and southern Africa (27) and subsequent admixture with local populations (28). Many Nilo-Saharan–speaking populations in East Africa, such as the Maasai, show multiple cluster assignments from the Nilo-Saharan (red) and Cushitic (dark purple) AACs, in accord with linguistic evidence of repeated Nilotic assimilation of Cushites over the past 3000 years (32) and with the high frequency of a shared East African–specific mutation associated with lactose tolerance (33).


Our data support the hypothesis that the Sahel has been a corridor for bidirectional migration between eastern and western Africa (34-36). The highest proportion of the Nilo-Saharan AAC was observed in the southern and central Sudanese populations (Nuer, Dinka, Shilluk, and Nyimang), with decreasing frequency from northern Kenya (e.g., Pokot) to northern Tanzania (Datog, Maasai) (Fig. 5, B and C, and fig. S15). Additionally, all Nilo-Saharan–speaking populations from Kenya, Tanzania, southern Sudan, and Chad clustered with west central Afroasiatic Chadic–speaking populations in the global analysis at K ≤11 (Fig. 3), which is consistent with linguistic and archeological data suggesting bidirectional migration of Nilo- Saharans from source populations in Sudan within the past ~10,500 to 3000 years (4,29). The proposed migration of proto-Chadic Afroasiatic speakers ~7000 years ago from the central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin may have resulted in a Nilo-Saharan to Afroasiatic language shift among Chadic speakers (37). However, our data suggest that this shift was not accompanied by large amounts of Afroasiatic gene flow. Other populations of interest, including the Fulani (Nigeria and Cameroon), the Baggara Arabs (Cameroon), the Koma (Nigeria), and Beja (Sudan), are discussed in (4).

--Sarah A. Tishkoff et al.

The Genetic Structure and History of Africans and African Americans

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BrandonP
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I also recall that some of the "leaked" AE mtDNA lineages that beyoku has shared were L lineages other than L3 (L3 being the main pre-OOA lineage). IMO dynastic and predynastic Egyptians most likely inherited a sub-Saharan ancestral component that wouldn't have been present in the late Upper Paleolithic residents of the region (the latter being the contributors of "Basal Eurasian" in Neolithic Eurasians), courtesy of the Green Sahara. I don't know if we have enough data to infer the precise proportions of SSA/pre-OOA ancestry in pre/dynastic Egyptians yet; skeletal analysis is at most an indirect clue.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Nodnarb:
I also recall that some of the "leaked" AE mtDNA lineages that beyoku has shared were L lineages other than L3 (L3 being the main pre-OOA lineage). IMO dynastic and predynastic Egyptians most likely inherited a sub-Saharan ancestral component that wouldn't have been present in the late Upper Paleolithic residents of the region (the latter being the contributors of "Basal Eurasian" in Neolithic Eurasians), courtesy of the Green Sahara. I don't know if we have enough data to infer the precise proportions of SSA/pre-OOA ancestry in pre/dynastic Egyptians yet; skeletal analysis is at most an indirect clue.

code:
Old Kingdom (2686-2181 BCE)


yDna mtDna

A-M13 L3f
A-M13 L0a1
B-M150 L3d
E-M2 L3e5
E-M2 L2a1
E-M123 L5a1
E-M35 R0a
E-M41 L2a1
E-M41 L1b1a
E-M75 M1
E-M78 L4b
J-M267 L3i
R-M173 L2
T-M184 L0a

Middle Kingdom (2055-1650 BCE)

A-M13 L3x
E-M75 L2a1
E-M78 L3e5
E-M78 M1a
E-M96 L4a
E-V6 L3
B-M112 L0b


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BrandonP
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^ Thanks for reposting that, Ish

And here's the modern distribution of various mtDNA L clades in Africa:
 -

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Forty2Tribes
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quote:
Originally posted by Nodnarb:


At the same time, I would take some of the oral traditions with a grain of salt since Egypt is a very prestigious civilization and many Bantu people today probably want to claim it as part of "their" heritage. [/QB]

Listen to the actual oral histories as they come from the tribe. Few claim to come from Kings. The Oral histories make sense. The Nile Valley was a huge population hub. People are supposed to trace their history there.
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Askia_The_Great
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Anyways to address Lioness question in fuller depth.

Some people think that the Hyksos war could have caused them to migrant their "original homeland." Again, that's what I hear some people say.

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Forty2Tribes
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by Nodnarb:
I also recall that some of the "leaked" AE mtDNA lineages that beyoku has shared were L lineages other than L3 (L3 being the main pre-OOA lineage). IMO dynastic and predynastic Egyptians most likely inherited a sub-Saharan ancestral component that wouldn't have been present in the late Upper Paleolithic residents of the region (the latter being the contributors of "Basal Eurasian" in Neolithic Eurasians), courtesy of the Green Sahara. I don't know if we have enough data to infer the precise proportions of SSA/pre-OOA ancestry in pre/dynastic Egyptians yet; skeletal analysis is at most an indirect clue.

code:
Old Kingdom (2686-2181 BCE)


yDna mtDna

A-M13 L3f
A-M13 L0a1
B-M150 L3d
E-M2 L3e5
E-M2 L2a1
E-M123 L5a1
E-M35 R0a
E-M41 L2a1
E-M41 L1b1a
E-M75 M1
E-M78 L4b
J-M267 L3i
R-M173 L2
T-M184 L0a

Middle Kingdom (2055-1650 BCE)

A-M13 L3x
E-M75 L2a1
E-M78 L3e5
E-M78 M1a
E-M96 L4a
E-V6 L3
B-M112 L0b


Where did that uber African leak come from anyway?
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beyoku
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No. It does not need to be "revisited". The issue is African genetics and migration being studied under a narrow template that excludes populations related to west Africans in Souhern Africa prior to Bantu......researchers are simply lazy and use Bantu expansion as a cop out explanation to any and all ancestry and lineages not indigenous to Southern Africa.

So even if we know Bantu carried lineages like L2a, L0a, E-M2, E-75, B-M60 Et al into areas below the equator in the last 5 thousand years that history doesn't account for the totality of the lineages in those regions.

On the flip side you have people trying to Deny the obvious movement of metal working farmers speaking Niger-Kordofanian languages from west central Africa into east and Southern Africa.

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Askia_The_Great
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^So you're saying some of those groups in southern Africa who claim through oral tradition that they migrated from the Sudanic region could have been a population that has been there much longer than the period if the Bantu migration?
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Forty2Tribes
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I'm tempted to make an oral history migration map. It's on the back back back burner though. If anyone is interested in assisting with it PM me. I already have some research on the subject that I would be happy to pass the torch to.
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beyoku
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quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
^So you're saying some of those groups in southern Africa who claim through oral tradition that they migrated from the Sudanic region could have been a population that has been there much longer than the period if the Bantu migration?

I am saying that even if that map in the first post is true it is not mutually exclusive or Bantu migrating from west central Africa.

Some of the lineages in Southern Africa that were brought by Bantu were also brought earlier by Cushitics and Nilotics.....and even earlier by unknown groups.

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Askia_The_Great
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quote:
Originally posted by beyoku: I am saying that even if that map in the first post is true it is not mutually exclusive or Bantu migrating from west central Africa.

I agree 100%, which is why I think this theory runs into some issues.

quote:
Originally posted by beyoku:
Some of the lineages in Southern Africa that were brought by Bantu were also brought earlier by Cushitics and Nilotics.....and even earlier by unknown groups.

This is true, but this thread is not really addressing that per sa. Maybe I shouldn't have named this thread " Should the Bantu migration be revisited?" as it really isn't about that.
But instead seeing if those Bantu groups who claim they migrated from the Sudanic region and are their claims true such as those like the Zulu, Bamieleke, Luhya and others.

Also now that I remember I do remember Cushitic lineages being found in South Africa early.

PS: Is your inbox not full? Because I have a question. And don't worry its nothing loaded or something that won't take up your time. Just a quick question on something different.

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beyoku
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My inbox should not be full. I will reply to all messages.
I cannot speak for the origins of specific groups like Zulu but there is very clear linguistic and generic data that indicates a migration from west central Africa of Bantu speakers. This data is multidisciplinary and involves evidence also from pottery, metallurgy etc.

Lineages carried by modern Bantu and other populations in the north like B2a1a have a presence in southern African that is both older than Bantu AND because of Bantu, there wasn't one migration. It was a pulse migration of at least 4 episodes over the last 20-30 thousand years.

The geneticists are going to have to spend money and do the work to get a clearer picture than we now have. Son of it is quite easy to direct if one studies African DNA. I have pointed out at least 5 or 6 years ago that B2 in Southern Africa is not soley due to the Bantu.

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Askia_The_Great
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^Good post. I wanna look more into that. I think B2a1a could have possibly been carried by Nilotic speakers or Khoisan who got that lineage from Nilotic speakers.


Anyways as for those specific groups like the Zulu, who knows? But what is for certain like you stated anthropology/genetics when concerning Africa is very narrow.


Anyways sent the PM.

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Tukuler
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I can tell you Zulu is like
a catch all niche. Nearly
every ethny Shaka beat
were absorbed into his
Zulu who were s minoru
ethny a couple hundred
years ago.

There are SAs who will
say they are Zulu simply
by default due to either
not knowing either of
their parents tribes or
because of detribalization
and nationhood.

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Bump...
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Askia_The_Great
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While not Bantu, I find this interesting.


The Tikar people (Bamoun and Bamilike) are grassland people that are currently in Cameroon near the Nigeria border and their said to come from the Nile Valley. I don't know how true this is, but I am noticing groups from coastal West Africa claiming through oral traditions that they migrated from the Nile Valley.

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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I dont think and high doubt Bantu people came from the Nile Valley but they probably share common Ancestry in the Green Sahara phase...We know that the oldest stone settlement in West Africa, Oulata/Walata dates to the B.C era and you can find Similarities in West/North African Saharan Communities and the Nile Valley as well as East Africa(Ethiopia, Somalia etc)...

I discussed some of this on my past thread..

http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/1074/north-south-relationship-mahgreb-sudan

For instance the Housing Styles among the Berbers and the West Africans in places like Mali are similar to those found in Egypt and Nubia..etc.

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Askia_The_Great
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Aye... I don't know why I did not see this post.

quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
I dont think and high doubt Bantu people came from the Nile Valley but they probably share common Ancestry in the Green Sahara phase...

Indeed. I always say that the Green Sahara was the incubator for MOST African cultures/civilizations. I hear the ancestors of Niger-Congo speakers who some claim were a different branch of Nilo-Saharans occupied the Green Sahara along with other African groups like proto-Afro-Asiatic speakers and other Nilo-Saharans. Those ancestors of Niger-Congo people went westward and even eastward after the drying of the desert. So we can say that is where the common ancestry comes from.

But what is your thoughts on E-M2 found in Egypt pre "Arab slave trade?"

quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
We know that the oldest stone settlement in West Africa, Oulata/Walata dates to the B.C era and you can find Similarities in West/North African Saharan Communities and the Nile Valley as well as East Africa(Ethiopia, Somalia etc)...

I discussed some of this on my past thread..

http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/1074/north-south-relationship-mahgreb-sudan

For instance the Housing Styles among the Berbers and the West Africans in places like Mali are similar to those found in Egypt and Nubia..etc.

I actually made a thread about Tichit Walata on another site.
 -
 -
 -


And VERY good point with the bolded. I have a belief that the African traditions of building in mud from West and even East Africa(like you mentioned) can be traced back to the Green Sahara!

And speaking of Mali, interesting that you mention that area, because as far as I can remember Neolithic Mali was said to be apart of the Green Sahara culture and contributed to it. Second it should be noted that Mali has the oldest pottery in Africa.
"A Swiss-led team of archaeologists has discovered pieces of the oldest African pottery in central Mali, dating back to at least 9,400BC"
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-archaeologist-digs-up-west-africa-s-past/5675736

Finally and most importantly... I have read that the jackal mask(and other animal head mask) and associated ritual in Ancient Egypt were found in the Sahara, but predates Ancient Egypt. It gets more interesting, because this is STILL found in Mali today. Especially by the Dogon. I don't like using Wikipedia, but...
quote:
It was the problem of "twin births" versus "single births," or androgyny versus single-sexed beings, that contributed to a disorder at the beginning of time. This theme became a significant basis of the Dogon religion. "The jackal was alone from birth," said Ogotemmęli, "and because of this he did more things than can be told."[19] Dogon males were primarily associated with the single-sexed male Jackal and the Sigui festival, which was associated with death on the Earth. It was held once every sixty years and celebrated the white dwarf star Sirius B. The colour white was a symbol of males. The ritual language, "Sigi so," or "language of the Sigui," which was taught to male dignitaries of the Society of the Masks, ("awa"), was considered a poor language, and only contained about a quarter of the vocabulary of "Dogo so," the Dogon word language. The "Sigi so" was used to tell the story of creation of the universe, of human life, and the advent of death on the Earth, during funeral ceremonies and the rites of the "end of mourning" ("dama").[20]

It was because of the birth of the single-sexed male Jackal, who was born without a soul, that all humans eventually had to be turned into single-sexed beings. This was to prevent a being like the Jackal from ever being born on Earth again. "The Nummo foresaw that the original rule of twin births was bound to disappear, and that errors might result comparable to those of the jackal, whose birth was single. For it was because of his solitary state that the first son of God acted as he did."[19] The removal of the second sex and soul from humans is what the ritual of circumcision represents in the Dogon religion. "The dual soul is a danger; a man should be male, and a woman female. Circumcision and excision are once again the remedy."[21]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogon_people

^^All of this from the Green Sahara predates Anubis in Ancient Egypt. And also this is why paying attention and understanding cultural concepts in various of African ethnic groups can properly explain these connections more easily.  Which is what Eurocentrics ignore and throw away as "Afrocentric." When it would IN FACT make sense of Ancient Egyptian culture and not make it look "taboo" to the point of thinking Ancient Egyptians were "aliens."

Anyways this is why I believe Africans outside of Egypt whether they be from the area of Nubia or the Green Sahara influenced Egypt before its formation than Ancient Egypt influencing the rest of Africa.

PS: I read that thread you linked a long time ago. Good thread.

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Ish Geber
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@BlessedbyHorus,... ^From the way thinks look, (some) whites are trying to claim this. Hence their multiple back migration theories.
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Found this to be interesting. Someone posted it on another site.

http://i.imgur.com/yMBJW3w.png

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xyyman
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[ author="@djoser" source="/post/11605/thread" timestamp="1421370740"]We can clearly see at K4 Western Bantus are genetically different than Eastern Bantus.


 -

[/quote]


Among Niger-Congo populations, geography is the main factor explaining the genetic differences, with a remarkable similarity among western populations (Yorubas and Mandenka), which could reflect a burst in the expansion to the west, related to iron technology and Niger-Congo languages. (ii) The southeastern Bantu from Mozambique are REMARKABLY DIFFERENTIATED from the western Niger-Congo speaking populations, such as the Mandenka and the Yoruba, and also differentiated from geographically CLOSER Eastern Bantu samples, such as Luhya. These results SUGGEST that the Bantu expansion of languages, which started B5000 years ago at the present day border region of Nigeria and Cameroon, and was probably related to the spread of agriculture and the emergence of iron technology,17–19 was NOT a demographic homogeneous migration with population replacement in the southernmost part of the continent, but acquired more divergence, likely because of the integration of pre-Bantu people. The complexity of the expansion of Bantu languages to the south (with an eastern and a western route20), might have produced differential degrees of assimilation of previous populations of hunter gatherers. This assimilation has been detected through uniparental markers because of the genetic comparison of nowadays hunter gatherers (Pygmies and Khoisan) with Bantu speaker agriculturalists.2,21–24 Nonetheless, the singularity of the southeastern population of Mozambique (poorly related to present Khoisan) could be attributed to a complete assimilate on of ancient genetically differentiated populations (presently unknown) by Bantu speakers in southeastern Africa, without leaving any pre-Bantu population in the area to compare with


===========

The Bantu(Niger Congo) Expansion never occurred!!!!


Read more: http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/1738/bantu-expansion-occur#ixzz4NS4tur99

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xyyman
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The Bantu Expansion Never occured. AEians(Amarnas) are closest based upon STR to to South Africans, Great Lakes followed by West Africans. Levantines, Europeans and even modern Egyptians are very distant.

So Akachi may be correct West Africans came from East Africa VERY recently . Maybe within the last 3000years.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
The Bantu Expansion Never occured. AEians(Amarnas) are closest based upon STR to to South Africans, Great Lakes followed by West Africans. Levantines, Europeans and even modern Egyptians are very distant.

So Akachi may be correct West Africans came from East Africa VERY recently . Maybe within the last 3000years.

So 4000 years ago there were no bantus in West Africa.

Was anyone living in West Africa the time?

When did West Africa first become populated?

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xyyman
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San probably occupied north Africa to the peninsulas of Europe. Since yDNA hg-A has its unique variation in Britain , Berbers and Sardinia . Francscescolli (sp?) Et al. "North "West Africa proper was probably occupied by Berbers. Berbers are closely related to San. San are closest to East Asians of all Africans . Coon speculated that North Africa was first occupied by "mongoloids " >40kya. "Bantus" are new to West Africa.
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xyyman
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As the chart above clearly shows , East Bantus are NOT are subset of West Bantus. There was no migration to the East from the West . The pattern is indicative of a central source dispersal from Great Lakes to Western Africa and South East Africa. The yDNA pattern E1b1a* coraborates that also .

MTDNA L2a do NOT support the hypothesis of a Bantu Expansion.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
The Bantu Expansion Never occured. AEians(Amarnas) are closest based upon STR to to South Africans, Great Lakes followed by West Africans. Levantines, Europeans and even modern Egyptians are very distant.

So Akachi may be correct West Africans came from East Africa VERY recently . Maybe within the last 3000years.

How "Close" are they? What are the MLI scores? Do you understand the significance of the MLI Scores?
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xyyman
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"do you understand the significance of MLI score"? Explain it to us Swenet. Blah! Blah! Blah!

All liars and frauds will be exposed!!!! I AM WAAATCHING. lol!

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:

The Bantu Expansion Never occured. AEians(Amarnas) are closest based upon STR to to South Africans, Great Lakes followed by West Africans. Levantines, Europeans and even modern Egyptians are very distant.

So Akachi may be correct West Africans came from East Africa VERY recently . Maybe within the last 3000years.

I disagree that there was never an expansion. The evidence show there was an expansion, however it was more so a cultural expansion than a population one. While there was likely was a physical population expansion of proto-Bantu from the Benue-Congo region, it's becoming clear that this genetic expansion was greatly exaggerated than it really was. The same can be said for example about Indo-European expansions in Europe.

This issue was actually discussed in multiple threads before like these.

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BrandonP
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:

The Bantu Expansion Never occured. AEians(Amarnas) are closest based upon STR to to South Africans, Great Lakes followed by West Africans. Levantines, Europeans and even modern Egyptians are very distant.

So Akachi may be correct West Africans came from East Africa VERY recently . Maybe within the last 3000years.

I disagree that there was never an expansion. The evidence show there was an expansion, however it was more so a cultural expansion than a population one. While there was likely was a physical population expansion of proto-Bantu from the Benue-Congo region, it's becoming clear that this genetic expansion was greatly exaggerated than it really was. The same can be said for example about Indo-European expansions in Europe.

This issue was actually discussed in multiple threads before like these.

A few months back on DeviantArt I got trolled by a guy claiming to be a Berber/Somali mix. He told me he had a "justified anger" against "Niger-Congo/Bantu" people because he believed they were guilty of some sort of colossal genocide against other Africans, including "eastern Cushites" like the Somalis. I ended up blocking this nutter, but would be interested in learning the truth in case I bump into him or someone in his social circle elsewhere on the Internet.
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DD'eDeN
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Hmmm...

xyyman: Among Niger-Congo populations, geography is the main factor explaining the genetic differences, with a remarkable similarity among western populations (Yorubas and Mandenka), which could reflect a burst in the expansion to the west, related to iron technology and Niger-Congo languages. (ii) The southeastern Bantu from Mozambique are REMARKABLY DIFFERENTIATED from the western Niger-Congo speaking populations, such as the Mandenka and the Yoruba, and also differentiated from geographically CLOSER Eastern Bantu samples, such as Luhya. These results SUGGEST that the Bantu expansion of languages, which started B5000 years ago at the present day border region of Nigeria and Cameroon, and was probably related to the spread of agriculture and the emergence of iron technology,17–19 was NOT a demographic homogeneous migration with population replacement in the southernmost part of the continent, but acquired more divergence, likely because of the integration of pre-Bantu people. The complexity of the expansion of Bantu languages to the south (with an eastern and a western route20), might have produced differential degrees of assimilation of previous populations of hunter gatherers. This assimilation has been detected through uniparental markers because of the genetic comparison of nowadays hunter gatherers (Pygmies and Khoisan) with Bantu speaker agriculturalists.2,21–24 Nonetheless, the singularity of the southeastern population of Mozambique (poorly related to present Khoisan) could be attributed to a complete assimilate on of ancient genetically differentiated populations (presently unknown) by Bantu speakers in southeastern Africa, without leaving any pre-Bantu population in the area to compare with


===========

The Bantu(Niger Congo) Expansion never occurred!!!!


Read more: http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/1738/bantu-expansion-occur#ixzz4NS4tur99

--------------------
xyambuatlaya

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Askia_The_Great
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:

The Bantu Expansion Never occured. AEians(Amarnas) are closest based upon STR to to South Africans, Great Lakes followed by West Africans. Levantines, Europeans and even modern Egyptians are very distant.

So Akachi may be correct West Africans came from East Africa VERY recently . Maybe within the last 3000years.

I disagree that there was never an expansion. The evidence show there was an expansion, however it was more so a cultural expansion than a population one. While there was likely was a physical population expansion of proto-Bantu from the Benue-Congo region, it's becoming clear that this genetic expansion was greatly exaggerated than it really was. The same can be said for example about Indo-European expansions in Europe.

This issue was actually discussed in multiple threads before like these.

Okay this post caught my interest. Can you elaborte on much much "exaggerated."

Anyways are you saying:

A) Bantus in Southern and Southeast Africa while clustering with Bantu's from Central-West Africa are a different set of Bantus and don't have origins in West-Central Africa?

B) Or do you mean by saying "cultural expansion" that Bantus really did not settle South and Southeast Africa in large numbers and that indigenous populations in that area only received slight Bantu admixture?

Forgive me if I am not wording things right.

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Askia_The_Great
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I don't know why some keep saying not to take the "MLI" scores of the Amarnas "literally." When in fact I hear many people say that the Amarna dynasty was originally from Nubia.


quote:
Originally posted by Nodnarb:
A few months back on DeviantArt I got trolled by a guy claiming to be a Berber/Somali mix. He told me he had a "justified anger" against "Niger-Congo/Bantu" people because he believed they were guilty of some sort of colossal genocide against other Africans, including "eastern Cushites" like the Somalis. I ended up blocking this nutter, but would be interested in learning the truth in case I bump into him or someone in his social circle elsewhere on the Internet. [/QB]

Aye.. Nodnard I actually know about people from that circle who are on that Afro-Asiatic supremacy. That theory is just a theory to demonize Bantus. Same as those who say Bantus were committing genocide against the Khoisan when there is no proof at that. I agree that the Pgymy sadly are subjected to Bantus in Central Africa today but we do not see that with Khoisan people today. They are just left alone in isolation. You had a iron age people vs a hunter gatherer people and so of course the iron age people would indirectly displace the hunter gatherers.

But Khoisans were mostly absorbed by Bantus which is why you have ethnics like the Xhosa. But anyways my main point was that there is no evidence of "genocide."

There is especially no evidence of genocide against Cushite speaking people in Southeast Africa. That is even more laughable. When I hear Eastern Cushites like the Oromo migrated AWAY from Southeast Africa into their current locations before the Bantu migration.

Anyways you should ask they lunatic(since he wants to talk about genocide) why Somalis once had Bantus slaves and still discriminate against Bantus in Somalis. Like I said I wouldn't take his argument seriiously.

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Nodnarb:

A few months back on DeviantArt I got trolled by a guy claiming to be a Berber/Somali mix. He told me he had a "justified anger" against "Niger-Congo/Bantu" people because he believed they were guilty of some sort of colossal genocide against other Africans, including "eastern Cushites" like the Somalis. I ended up blocking this nutter, but would be interested in learning the truth in case I bump into him or someone in his social circle elsewhere on the Internet.

The guy you speak of is obviously a nutcase as there is NO evidence whatsoever of the Bantu expansion ever involving any genocide of indigenous or prior populations. Even the indigenous populations of the region have no traditions of any genocide perpetrated against them and some don't even have memories of any Bantus expanding in their area which backs up the notion that the Bantu expansion is much exaggerated.
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

Okay this post caught my interest. Can you elaborte on much much "exaggerated."

Anyways are you saying:

A) Bantus in Southern and Southeast Africa while clustering with Bantu's from Central-West Africa are a different set of Bantus and don't have origins in West-Central Africa?

B) Or do you mean by saying "cultural expansion" that Bantus really did not settle South and Southeast Africa in large numbers and that indigenous populations in that area only received slight Bantu admixture?

Forgive me if I am not wording things right.

I'm saying there was an actual population expansion however, the farther from the epicenter one gets, the less the actual numbers of people. This is why genetic ties to the Benue Congo region fade the further south and east you go. I believe that the Bantu speakers were more successful in spreading their language and culture than they were spreading themselves. Think of for example the spread of Latin language and Roman culture throughout Europe leading to the Romance languages. Although the proto-Bantu peoples never created an empire that expanded through conquest the idea is the same in terms of disseminating language and culture. Even today in Europe the vast majority of Romance speakers have little Roman ancestry. The same can be said of the Prakriti or Sanskrit derived languages of the Indian subcontinent.
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Askia_The_Great
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^^But... South and Southeast African groups like the Zulus, Xhosa, Shona, Swahili, Kikuyu, etc have significant West African like admixture and haplogroups. So I don't know about the argument of Bantu's "hardly reaching those areas." Now I do agree that the population "displacement" is a myth. I think you really mean that.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by beyoku:
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
^^^
Sigh....

Beyoku IGNORE that goofy. He is known to spam all his nonsense on many site while getting banned. I don't want him to further poison this thread.

Out of respect I will do that. But take a look around, are you truly trying to salvage threads off Egyptsearch?

Akachi if you have words start a new thread. My opinions and hypothesis are not really under question, yours are.

I recommend if he starts a new thread it should be in the Ancient Egypt Forum where my assistant Mike111 is.
Mike111 is more in tune with Akachi's teachings and can build with him there.

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xyyman
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The brotha just said don’t screw up his thread. Take it someplace else Lioness! Lol!


I am not into bloggers but this Davidski character has an interesting mathematical model explaining why R1b-M269 although not of Steppe origin has become dominant in Western Europe. I believe the same can be applied to yDNA hg-A in Europe and North Africa amongst the Berbers(How hunter-gathers lineage became virtually extinct outside of near Africa). Keep in mind “Asian” L, Q etc are found in Berbers also. Sources cited. As far as SNP yes, San carry ‘Native American and East Asian ancestry. Sources cited already.

What does all this have to do with Bantu Expansion? Like modern European male line Modern West African recently arrived and is now dominant in West Africa. Modern West African is a Neolithic package. Don’t believe me…..ask Coon…I think

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Askia_The_Great
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Anyways now that I said what I had to say. Unlike a certain character I believe there is hardly any evidence that Bantus would have came directly from Ancient Egypt especially during the dynastic periods. There are no records that state a large scale migration from Egypt going South.

However,I do believe that there could be a chance that there was a migration from the area of Nubia. Some say that it wouldn't have been mutually exclusive and I agree.

I once had a good discussion with Beyoku about something related to this and it was very eye opening but I am not sure if Beyoku wants the discussion we had to go public without his permission so I will not delve deep until he says so.

Anyways I've been following the Luhya people who are a Bantu group who themselves claim they come from more "North."

quote:
The true origin of the Abaluhya is disputable. According to their own oral literature, Luhyas migrated to their present day location from Egypt in the North. Some historians however believe that the Luhya came from Central and West Africa alongside other Bantus in what is known as the Great Bantu Migration.
http://softkenya.com/tribe/luhya-tribe/

I don't think they mean Egypt literally but areas surrounding it like the Sudan.

But more importantly I found this BOOK!

Linguistic Ties between Ancient Egyptian and Bantu
http://www.bookpump.com/upb/pdf-b/2332900b.pdf

However sadly it is not the full book but I do plan on one day buying the book. Anyways some linguistics actually agree that Ancient Egypt actually has some Bantu words. Could this be from the ancestors of "Bantus" during the Green Sahara?

Does anyone have additional information on this.

Moving on, like I said before I don't see why some on here think the DNAtribe scores of the 18th dynasty mummies should not be taken literally. I'm starting to think the 18th dynasty were not one of Egyptian origins but could have came from the Sudan/Nubia and probably more inner in that area...

The 18th dynasty was most likely a reflection of this Nilo-Saharan ancestry of A3b2, B2a1, E2a. Not only that but they had typical "Nubian" attire African priesthood customs written all over the dynasty.

The family that started this dynasty could have most likely came from Southern Sudan. I believe Ancient Nubians may have profiles that are similar to Southern Sudanese.

Additional things that support this theory of that I have is that have West African specific sickle cell traits with these mummies, we have malaria strands specific to this region as well.

I see more evidence of the 18th dynasty family being a Nubian origins family. And like in my OP E-M2 is hypothesized to come from that area.

Thoughts anyone?

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:


But more importantly I found this BOOK!

Linguistic Ties between Ancient Egyptian and Bantu
http://www.bookpump.com/upb/pdf-b/2332900b.pdf

However sadly it is not the full book but I do plan on one day buying the book. Anyways some linguistics actually agree that Ancient Egypt actually has some Bantu words. Could this be from the ancestors of "Bantus" during the Green Sahara?

Does anyone have additional information on this.

Fergus Sharman(Ferg Somo)

quote:
Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:


And yes, at one point I believed Ferg Somo's works had potential. But after quickly putting it under scrutiny, and it couldn't measure up, I had to quickly abandon his methodology because he couldn't distinguish between look-a-likes, chance coincidence, and genuine cognates. And I see you are making the same mistakes because you think actually learning proper research methodology is "flowery." Only flowery to the ignorant.



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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

^^But... South and Southeast African groups like the Zulus, Xhosa, Shona, Swahili, Kikuyu, etc have significant West African like admixture and haplogroups. So I don't know about the argument of Bantu's "hardly reaching those areas." Now I do agree that the population "displacement" is a myth. I think you really mean that.

Yes, these specific groups do but that doesn't mean every Bantu speaking group has significant West African admixture, hence while certain populations show descent not every Bantu speaking population does. Pygmies speak Bantu languages yet they are genetically more distant.
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

^^But... South and Southeast African groups like the Zulus, Xhosa, Shona, Swahili, Kikuyu, etc have significant West African like admixture and haplogroups. So I don't know about the argument of Bantu's "hardly reaching those areas." Now I do agree that the population "displacement" is a myth. I think you really mean that.

Yes, these specific groups do but that doesn't mean every Bantu speaking group has significant West African admixture, hence while certain populations show descent not every Bantu speaking population does. Pygmies speak Bantu languages yet they are genetically more distant.
Pygmies are NOT a good example(no offense to you) as everyone KNOWS that they are a indigenous group to Central Africa who were absorbed by Bantus. And thus they speak a Bantu language.

Again from what I'm seeing all the major ethnic groups from very populated south/southeast African countries like South Africa, Kenya, Tanzania, Namibian, Rwanda, Zimbabwe, Mozambique and Uganda show strong "West African like" admixture with slight non-Bantu admixture. Which is why again I asked how much of an "exaggeration" do you mean the Bantu migration was.

Also in my opinion you really can not compare the Bantu migration to the Roman occupation of Europe. As Roman citizens did not really settle non-Italian areas in large numbers, but they were mostly used as Roman military outposts. Of course there are exceptions like London, but still the Britons outnumbered the Romans.


The Bantus not only settled Southern and Southeast Africa especially when it came to needed land for agriculture but they outnumbered the native populations there. Like I said I think what you are saying actually disproves that Bantus replaced native populations when they really didn't.

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