posted
And disclaimer: I am not doxxing because her blog is public on Facebook for all to see.
Anyways as someone who follows her on social media, what is she trying to say in this post?
She seems like she is trying to Arabize Africa but worse doesn't doesn't seem to understand genetics. I really looked at this post by her with a side eye. Yea sure there are some Arab ancestry(although it could also be Berber) in the Sahel in places like Northern Nigeria, Chad and Niger. True. But we don't even know the exact percentage of Middle Eastern ancestry some of these Sahelian groups carry. Especially for her to say "Its another reason why black peoples of West and Central Africa should not be letting other peoples usurp the Arabian heritage!"
This "Arabian heritage" would be insignificant among West Africans as a collective. So what the heck is she talking about? Plus African-Americans especially have little to none Middle Eastern ancestry. That post by her rubs me the wrong way especially as a fan because it not only seems like she is trying to Arabize West Africans but thinks Arabian heritage would somehow make West Africans and even AAs "exotic."
But whats worse is her reply to the dude who says he has Chad, Niger and Nigerian ancestry saying "you're more Arab than African" like wtf?
Anyways, how much grounded in reality is this even on a genetic level when it comes to West Africans as a collective. What "Arabian heritage" do West Africans even need to protect?
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posted
I think the woman is excessively infatuated with Arab and Moorish cultures, to the point where she wants to claim them as her heritage. I get suspicious every time she claims Arabs by and large were still "black" well into medieval times and later. I can understand thinking the aboriginal AMH inhabitants of Arabia were black, as well as the earliest proto-Semitic speakers. But where the hell does she think the current MENA phenotype comes from?
posted
Ive been saying this about Dana for years, she's good at finding quotes describing Arabs, but tbh when she acts like that it makes her work suspicious as if she has an agenda to work toward rather than letting the evidence speak for itself.
Granted there are still some dark skinned "black" Arab peoples still alive today, we've posted many examples from places like Socotra etc. but these people have almost exclusively j1 heritage, no different than the brown and white Arabs and Middle Easterners.
quote:Originally posted by One Third African: I think the woman is excessively infatuated with Arab and Moorish cultures, to the point where she wants to claim them as her heritage. I get suspicious every time she claims Arabs by and large were still "black" well into medieval times and later. I can understand thinking the aboriginal AMH inhabitants of Arabia were black, as well as the earliest proto-Semitic speakers. But where the hell does she think the current MENA phenotype comes from?
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Not to throw dirt on her name but I personally think she feels Black having a connection to Arabs make us "exotic." Worst I think she may like Arab men and it may influence her research. Because that post came off very weird.
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posted
She's saying that some people who have done a genetic ancestry test and came back as (North) Nigerian, might have Shuwa or Baqqara ancestry as well. Since these groups have trace regions in Nigeria.
That's what guy Al Aemer suggests with his 23&me genetic outcome.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
I am not an "arab romanticist" but I agree with Dana 100%...
The more I study about West Africa it is not hard to come to this conclusion.
Also, a detailed study of slave trade routes in Northern Ghana, Northern Nigeria and Northern Cameroon
West Africa was more diverse than we have been led to believe....
Remember the information that we have now for the most part was put together by the British Colonialists who had their own agenda and prejudices.
there is a deep connection between Wadai and Kano..
One thing about Dana she might be a romanticist but she studies deep and hard... if you are going to refute her do it on the facts.
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: She's saying that some people who have done a genetic ancestry test and came back as (North) Nigerian, might have Shuwa or Baqqara ancestry as well. Since these groups have trace regions in Nigeria.
That's what guy Al Aemer suggests with his 23&me genetic outcome.
But northern Nigeria is such a large region and those Arab groups make up a small minority. There's a far greater chance of Berber ancestry through the Fulani and even still the Fulani are small in numbers compared to the Hausa.
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: She's saying that some people who have done a genetic ancestry test and came back as (North) Nigerian, might have Shuwa or Baqqara ancestry as well. Since these groups have trace regions in Nigeria.
That's what guy Al Aemer suggests with his 23&me genetic outcome.
No she is saying that based on her opinion of looks
and then a person comments that their DNA results show ancestry from Chad, Nigeria and Niger.
And her follow up comment is "Exactly what I thought, you are probably more Arab than African"
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posted
There really is nothing to refute, nor is anything in that post based on facts. The fact is we know what the so called Arab Haplogroups are, and unless Dana has presented a peer reviewed genetics or archeology/anthroplogy research paper, then Im going to remain skeptical esp. of claims that majority of African Americans are Arabs.
Scapegoating some nefarious white European kabal isnt going to work anymore....provide the academic peer reviewed proof.
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: I am not an "arab romanticist" but I agree with Dana 100%...
The more I study about West Africa it is not hard to come to this conclusion.
Also, a detailed study of slave trade routes in Northern Ghana, Northern Nigeria and Northern Cameroon
West Africa was more diverse than we have been led to believe....
Remember the information that we have now for the most part was put together by the British Colonialists who had their own agenda and prejudices.
there is a deep connection between Wadai and Kano..
One thing about Dana she might be a romanticist but she studies deep and hard... if you are going to refute her do it on the facts.
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quote: these peoples of the Muslim folklore like the Torah/Bible are actually historically-documented Arab tribes corresponding to early populations from the Yemen, Hijaz Assir, and Central Arabia, and some that are still around...
we have seen that Kamal Salibi's book, the The Bible Came from Arabia gives excellent examples of how certain phrases related to geography have been distorted, misinterpreted or ignored in order to validate established ideas of biblical archaeology. This has included the misconstruing of localities and placement of names like that of the promised land of Moses (mentioned in Number 34:1-12). Names meant to designate regions in places like Hijaz, Asir and Wadi Dawasir in the Yaman, have been misappropriated and applied to places in modern Levant towns – some of which could hardly have been occupied until centuries later than the period referred to in the Torah/Bible.
As we have just seen, the people who in Arab tradition and histories living in Hadramaut and the Yaman that were called “Adites” or “A'ad” and Thamud, their remnant, are the same as the peoples known in the bible as children of Shem -Lud, Eber, Hul, Meshech or Mash, Almodad, Shelah and the “Aramaeans”, otherwise known in literature, insciption and historical documents as Al-Awidh, Wabar, Mesheyik, AlMirithad, and Salih. These were originally the names of tribes of southern and central Arabian origin still known as el-Wuda'in, Wabar or Wabari'in, Huwayl, Meshaykh, and Salih of the Qudah (or Sawalihi'in plural), and "Iram" or "Aram" is the original home of these peoples also known futher northward as the Nabataeans.
posted
Exactly, and again lets not forget we know what the majority of Arab haplogroups are and we know what majority of African Americans and Nigerians are as well
There exists a whole range of folks from Nigritos, Indians, and others who resemble Africans but are distinct genetically...yet people are still playing games like its still the early 2000s...
quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: She's saying that some people who have done a genetic ancestry test and came back as (North) Nigerian, might have Shuwa or Baqqara ancestry as well. Since these groups have trace regions in Nigeria.
That's what guy Al Aemer suggests with his 23&me genetic outcome.
But northern Nigeria is such a large region and those Arab groups make up a small minority. There's a far greater chance of Berber ancestry through the Fulani and even still the Fulani are small in numbers compared to the Hausa.
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posted
from what I can tell most of the shared haplogroups between east and west sahel are MTDNA's
the problem is as usual most focus on the male lineage
Our data support the hypothesis that the Sahel has been a corridor for bidirectional migration between eastern and western Africa (34-36). The highest proportion of the Nilo-Saharan AAC was observed in the southern and central Sudanese populations (Nuer, Dinka, Shilluk, and Nyimang), with decreasing frequency from northern Kenya (e.g., Pokot) to northern Tanzania (Datog, Maasai) (Fig. 5, B and C, and fig. S15). Additionally, all Nilo-Saharan–speaking populations from Kenya, Tanzania, southern Sudan, and Chad clustered with west central Afroasiatic Chadic–speaking populations in the global analysis at K ≤11 (Fig. 3), which is consistent with linguistic and archeological data suggesting bidirectional migration of Nilo-Saharans from source populations in Sudan within the past ~10,500 to 3000 years (4, 29). The proposed migration of proto-Chadic Afroasiatic speakers ~7000 years ago from the central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin may have resulted in a Nilo-Saharan to Afroasiatic language shift among Chadic speakers (37). However, our data suggest that this shift was not accompanied by large amounts of Afroasiatic gene flow. Other populations of interest, including the Fulani (Nigeria and Cameroon), the Baggara Arabs (Cameroon), the Koma (Nigeria),
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: And disclaimer: I am not doxxing because her blog is public on Facebook for all to see.
Anyways as someone who follows her on social media, what is she trying to say in this post?
She seems like she is trying to Arabize Africa but worse doesn't doesn't seem to understand genetics. I really looked at this post by her with a side eye. Yea sure there are some Arab ancestry(although it could also be Berber) in the Sahel in places like Northern Nigeria, Chad and Niger. True. But we don't even know the exact percentage of Middle Eastern ancestry some of these Sahelian groups carry. Especially for her to say [/]"Its another reason why black peoples of West and Central Africa should not be letting other peoples usurp the Arabian heritage!"[/I]
This "Arabian heritage" would be insignificant among West Africans as a collective. So what the heck is she talking about? Plus African-Americans especially have little to none Middle Eastern ancestry. That post by her rubs me the wrong way especially as a fan because it not only seems like she is trying to Arabize West Africans but thinks Arabian heritage would somehow make West Africans and even AAs "exotic."
But whats worse is her reply to the dude who says he has Chad, Niger and Nigerian ancestry saying "you're more Arab than African" like wtf?
Anyways, how much grounded in reality is this even on a genetic level when it comes to West Africans as a collective. What "Arabian heritage" do West Africans even need to protect?
She is basically mixing up a lot of things and lumping them under the term "Arab" with no context.
First off, Africans have been migrating across Africa since before humans left Africa. That includes migrations along a East West corridor and North South Migrations. One of the keys to the East West migrations is the ancient lake Mega Chad. Obviously the history of these migrations have nothing to do with Arabs.
quote: Abstract
During the Holocene a giant lake, known as Lake Mega-Chad (LMC), extended over more than 350,000 km2 in southern Sahara. Morphodynamic features of sedimentary systems outlining the LMC palaeoshorelines have been identified by the joint analyses of new topographic images (Digital Elevation Model) acquired by radar interferometry and Landsat Thematic Mapper images. Here, we characterize for the first time at the scale of the Chad Basin a wave-dominated sedimentary system including river deltas, longshore sandridges, beach ridges, spits and a wave-ravinement surface. They provide new evidence of the environmental impact of Quaternary climate changes in the sahelo–saharan area. Continental trade winds controlled the longshore drift in the northern part of the palaeolake. Two distinct LMC episodes dated as lower and middle Holocene are clearly identified, contemporaneous with the two phases of wetter conditions usually recognized in central and northern Africa.
The history of humans in Africa and their ability to migrate in and ultimately out of Africa is also the history of nomadism. And a big part of the evolution of Nomadism is associated with the drying Sahara desert. This drying event also pushed Africans outwards out of Africa and into neighboring lands carrying with them the nomadic lifestyle. And from that came the origin of Nomadism throughout the Sinai, Levant and Arabia and ultimately everywhere else. But keep in mind that all humans are nomadic and have been since humans evolved hundreds of thousands of years ago. That is how humans settled the planet. The key difference between the African nomads migrating during the drying Sahara is that they brought donkeys with them. Donkeys allowed these nomadic groups to take their belongings with them on their journeys using the donkey as a means of transport.
quote: Genetic investigators say the partnership between people and the ancestors of today's donkeys was sealed not by monarchs trying to establish kingdoms, but by mobile, pastoral people who had to recruit animals to help them survive the harsh Saharan landscape in northern Africa more than 5,000 years ago.
The findings, reported July 28 by an international research team in Proceedings of the Royal Society B, paint a surprising picture of what small, isolated groups of people were able to accomplish when confronted with unpredictable storms and expanding desert.
"It says those early people were quite innovative, more so than many people today give them credit for," said senior author Connie J. Mulligan, Ph.D., an associate professor of anthropology at the University of Florida and associate director of the UF Genetics Institute. "The domestication of a wild animal was quite an intellectual breakthrough, and we have provided solid evidence that donkey domestication happened first in northern Africa and happened there more than once."
And it was from the donkey domestication that early African nomadic groups eventually helped domesticate the camel in South Arabia and North East Africa, leading to the nomadic cultures seen throughout the Levant and Arabia to this day. This is before the development of modern Arab languages.
The People of CHad and Northern Nigeria are no more "Arab" than the people of Sudan. However, historically Arab culture has dictated that groups affiliated with Arab culture identify based on male lineage going back to their nearest Arab ancestor. So because of that, even if the amount of Arab DNA is very small, they still identify as "Arabs". And that applies from Sudan, Somalia, to the Sahara and other parts of Africa. But it has nothing to do with the actual history of people and culture within Africa which is far older than Arab culture. And it definitely has very little to do with African DNA history.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
DougM's last paragraph perfectly sums it up.
Africans with little to no post 7th century Arabian lineages who speak Arabic are sometimes called Arab.
Arabic speaking Africans, of little or no post 7th century Arabian lineage, are sometimes called Arab.
Coastal Africans know its a sham since Qaddafi hipped them. Some Kel Tagelmust say they are of immigrant Arabian stock. A few Sudan tribes, like the Rashaida, do trace back to migrant Arabian females.
Because Islam is patrilinear, tribes without female Arabian antecedents claim Arab identity due to an Arabian paternal ancestor, no matter how many generations ago, whose genetic trace may have somehow disappeared.
I hate to say it but conqueror prestige leads to claiming Arabian ancestry while denying indigenous continental blood ties.
Heritage replaces lineage.
Black skinned Arabians and indigenous Arabians sharing African genomes since BCE are a reality. How much any Arabs of Chad, CAR, and the Sudans directly descend from that source waits investigation.
Accepting certain Arab heritage tribes in Africa are lineal Arabians depends on one's own culture, be it local African or EuroWestern. To be polite and honor self-determination we don't challenge Africans claiming to be Arabians because their identity among their neighbors is an Arab one. Social constructs are real and much much more repercussive than science.
Personally, any African tribes or individuals "pure" or "mixed" primarily identifying as Arab? Let 'em, at least I know whose side they're on. The mind determines the body's path.
Black skinned Arabians and indigenous Arabians sharing African genomes since BCE are a reality. How much any Arabs of Chad, CAR, and the Sudans directly descend from that source waits investigation.
Accepting certain Arab heritage tribes in Africa are lineal Arabians depends on one's own culture, be it local African or EuroWestern. To be polite and honor self-determination we don't challenge Africans claiming to be Arabians because their identity among their neighbors is an Arab one. Social constructs are real and much much more repercussive than science.
Personally, any African tribes or individuals "pure" or "mixed" primarily identifying as Arab? Let 'em, at least I know whose side they're on. The mind determines the body's path.
I believe the bolded is Dana's thesis...
Before dissecting... one has to determine what was the original "ARAB" then proceed from there
If cushitic/black brown arab mixes with nilotic what do you get?
probably the basis for certain west african ethnic groups.. it is really pretty simple..
however, that culture or identifying with that culture is a whole nother level
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The American Journal of Human Genetics, Volume 99 Supplemental Data
Chad Genetic Diversity Reveals an African History Marked by Multiple Holocene Eurasian Migrations Marc Haber... R. Spencer Wells, Yali Xue, Pierre A. Zalloua, and Chris Tyler-Smith
The Baggāra are a grouping of Arab ethnic groups inhabiting the portion of Africa's Sahel mainly between Lake Chad and southern Kordofan, numbering over six million. They are known as Baggara in Sudan, and as Shuwa/Diffa Arabs in Chad and Nigeria.
The Baggāra mostly speak Chadian Arabic, with the exception of those in South Kordofan, who speak Sudanese Arabic.
The origin of the Baggara is determined. According to a MacMichael, the group arrived in Wadai between Bornu and Darfur, where they spread from 1635 onwards through the fusion of the Arabic speaking population with the indigenous groups. Like other Arabic speaking tribes in the Sahara and the Sahel, Baggara tribes have origin ancestry from the Juhaynah Arab tribes who migrated directly from the Arabian peninsula or from other parts of north Africa. [8]
Baggara tribes in Sudan include: the Rizeigat, Ta’isha, Beni Halba, and Habbaniya in Darfur, and the Messiria Zurug, Messiria Humur, Hawazma, and Awlad Himayd in Kordofan, and the Beni Selam on the White Nile. For complete and accurate account about Baggara tribes, see: Baggara of Sudan: Culture and Environment. The Misseiria of Jebel Mun speak a Nilo-Saharan language, Miisiirii, related to the Tama of their traditional neighbors.
The small community of "Baggara Arabs" in the southeastern corner of Niger is known as Diffa Arabs for the Diffa Region. They occupy the shore of Lake Chad and migrated from Nigeria since World War II. Most of the Diffa Arabs claim descent from the Mahamid clan of Sudan and Chad
POPULATION TOTALS, all groups Chad 15.48 million (2018) Nigeria 195.9 million (2018) Niger 22.44 million (2018) Sudan 41.8 million (2018)
Women travelling in Kordofan — early 20th century southern Sudan. Women of the Messiria tribe branch of the Baggara Arabs traveling by oxen.
Baggara, Shuwa Arab in Sudan
The Baggara tribes are of Arab descent and mainly speak the Shuwa dialect of the Arabic language. They entered western Sudan between the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, and have gradually moved east and west from there. By the eighteenth century, they were concentrated primarily to the north and east of Lake Chad. Their tribes continued moving eastward until they became widely scattered across the horizontal plains of West Africa. They have intermarried with the tribes who lived close to them.
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posted
I didn't know that 10% of Chad was J and they have R1a, Q and I.
Is Dana a closet Israelite? I don't get where she is going. Why assume that someone who clusters with Africans is more Arabian than African.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Forty2Tribes: I didn't know that 10% of Chad was J and they have R1a, Q and I.
Is Dana a closet Israelite? I don't get where she is going. Why assume that someone who clusters with Africans is more Arabian than African.
I went back over that nice looking pie chart to verify what you said here but realized there's no R1a, Q and I listed for Chad That Pie chart was apparently all the groups studied but doesn't break them down on the chart > Samples were collected from Chad (238), Lebanon (126), Greece (96), and Yemen (20)
So I took it down and posted the detailed table from the same article that does break down by country (in that earlier post)
As for J1 in Chad 1% of the Toubou sample but 13% in N'Djamena but 0 elsewhere
N'Djamena is the capital and largest city of Chad. A variety of religions are practiced in the city, but with a clear Islamic predominance. The main ethnic groups are: Daza (16.97%), Chadian Arabs (11.08%), Hadjerai (9.15%), Ngambaye (6.41%), Bilala (5.83%), Kanembu (5.80%), Maba (4.84%), Kanuri (4.39%), Gor (3.32%), Kuka (3.20%), Sara (2.24%), and Barma (2.10%).
Chadian Arabic (also known as Shuwa Arabic;, Baggara Arabic, and, most recently, Western Sudanic Arabic) is one of the regional colloquial varieties of Arabic and is the first language of some 1.6 million people (2015)
Chad pop 15.48 million (2018)
_____________________________
ISSOG
Paragroup R1b1* and R1b1a2-V88 are found most frequently in SW Asia and Africa. The African examples are almost entirely within R1b1a2 and are associated with the spread of Chadic languages.
Why is it so hard to believe that an AA might have an ancestor that is Baggara... I mean that is all Dana said..
Just look at the map.... and read what the woman said...
All of this area is Sahel or Savanna totally walkable, pastoral, horses, donkeys, oxen...
Baggara couple.... I swear this Baggara dude looks like your average black dude...
Bare-breasted Baggara Arab girl, Chad [1930]
and there was something that I caught the other day that my mind was blinded to for years... is this famous slave art piece... he men are wearing head wraps like Sudanese or like that dude in the pic on Lake Chad..
:Slave dance to banjo, The Old Plantation (anonymous folk painting). Depicts African-American slaves dancing to banjo and percussion Date late 1700s
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New Insights into the Lake Chad Basin Population Structure Revealed by High-Throughput Genotyping of Mitochondrial DNA Coding SNPs María Cerezo, Viktor Černý, 2011
Of mtDNA the Kotoko, Masa, Kanuri, and Mafa have frequencies of L3 haplotypes above 60%, in contrast with frequencies of only 30% for the Kanembu, Buduma and Chad Arabs.
mtDNA, Chad Arabs
No mtDNAs of Eurasian ancestry have been observed in samples from the Fali, Kanembu, Mafa, and Masa. The typical North African lineages (M1 and U6; 2% in the total sample) are mainly observed in the two Arab groups. Most of the M1 lineages likely come from the Mediterranean instead of East Africa. For instance, four Shuwa Arabs belong to M1a1 and another within the sub-branch M1a1a (as indicated by a transition at position 14182 and a reversion at position 16249); the distribution of M1a1 is mainly Mediterranean. The Chad Arab sample #AC92 and the two Buduma #Bu87 and #Bu89 belong to the M1a3 branch, which has a predominant Mediterranean distribution. Finally, two other Buduma samples belong to M1a3, also mainly of a Mediterranean distribution [23]. The three mtDNAs belonging to U6 were found in one Shuwa. Arab, one Kanuri and one Mafa, with the one in the Kanuri belonging to U6a5, again a Mediterranean branch. More interestingly, the U6b lineage found in the Mafa is of the so called “Canarian Branch”, indicating that perhaps the Chad Basin could participate in the demographic wave that originally moved U6 hg towards the Canary Island from East Africa. ______________________________________________
However Chad has the second largest population of Bagarra (Shuwa)
Sudan has slightly more mainly, in Darfur and an interesting Coptic connection
wiki
Sudanese Arabs
According to Y-DNA analysis by Hassan et al. (2008), among Sudanese Arabs, 67% of Arakien, 43% of Meseria, and 40% of Gaalien individuals carry the haplogroup J. The remainder mainly belong to the E1b1b clade, which is borne by 18% of Gaalien, 17% of Arakien, and 14% of Meseria. Both paternal lineages are also common among local Nubians and Afroasiatic-speaking populations. The next most frequently observed haplogroups among Sudanese Arabs are the European-associated R1 clade (25% Meseria, 16% Gaalien, 8% Arakien), followed by the Eurasian lineage F (11% Meseria, 10% Gaalien, 8% Arakien), the Europe-associated I clade (7% Meseria, 4% Gaalien), and the African A3b2 haplogroup (6% Gaalien).[17]
Maternally, Hassan (2009) observed that over 90% of the Sudanese Arabs samples carried various subclades of the Africa-centered macrohaplogroup L. Of these mtDNA lineages, the most frequently borne clade was L3 (68% Gaalien, 40% Meseria, 24% Arakien), followed by the L2 (53% Arakien, 33% Meseria, 9% Gaalien), L0a1 (13% Meseria), L1 (7% Meseria, 5% Gaalien), and L5 (9% Gaalien, 6% Arakien) haplogroups. The remaining ~10% of Sudanese Arabs belonged to sublineages of the Eurasian macrohaplogroup N (Arakien: 6% preHV1, 6% N1a, 6% N/J1b; Gaalien: 9% preHV1; Meseria: 7% N/J1b).
Dobon et al. (2015) identified an ancestral autosomal component that is common to many modern Sudanese Arabs, Nubians and Afroasiatic-speaking populations in the Nile Valley. Known as the Coptic component, it peaks among Egyptian Copts who settled in Sudan over the past two centuries. The scientists associate the Coptic component with Ancient Egyptian ancestry, without the later Arabian influence that is present among other Egyptians. Hollfelder et al. (2017) also analysed various populations in Sudan and similarly observed close autosomal affinities between their Sudanese Arab and Nubian samples.
The genetics of East African populations: a Nilo-Saharan component in the African genetic landscape Begońa Dobon, Hisham Y. Hassan, [...], and Jaume Bertranpetit
Copts, with a strong individual heterogeneity, are more similar to Arabs (FST = 0.019) than to any other East African population. Copts and South-West populations are the most distant populations (FST > 0.1). Fulani had on average lower FST values when compared to South-West (Nuba, Darfurians and Nilotes) than to North-East populations (Nubians, Arabs, Beja and Ethiopians). These values show a complex situation beyond the simple North African versus Sub-Saharan Africa main differentiation.
Copts show a common ancestry with North African and Middle Eastern populations (dark blue), whereas the South-West cluster (Darfurians, Nuba and Nilotes) share an ancestry component (light blue) with sub–Saharan samples.
Copts share the same main ancestral component than North African and Middle East populations (dark blue), supporting a common origin with Egypt (or other North African/Middle Eastern populations). They are known to be the most ancient population of Egypt and at k = 4 (Fig.3), they show their own component (dark green) different from the current Egyptian population which is closer to the Arabic population of Qatar.
It is noteworthy the case of the Fulani, which feature more Sudanese ancestry over 45% than North African, under 40% or sub–Saharan under 15% and at k = 5 show their own component (Fig.3). They have a high individual component variance suggesting a recent admixture event in this population.
Populations from the North-East cluster: Beja, Ethiopians, Arabs and Nubians (Table 2) may be explained as admixture products of an ancestral North African population (similar to Copts) and an ancestral South-West population (Nuba, even if in one case Darfurians have better fit). These four populations had an intermediate position between Copts and South-West Sudanese populations both in the PC and admixture analyses.
The North African/Middle Eastern genetic component is identified especially in Copts. The Coptic population present in Sudan is an example of a recent migration from Egypt over the past two centuries. They are close to Egyptians in the PCA, but remain a differentiated cluster, showing their own component at k = 4 (Fig. 3). Copts lack the influence found in Egyptians from Qatar, an Arabic population. It may suggest that Copts have a genetic composition that could resemble the ancestral Egyptian population, without the present strong Arab influence. ________________________________
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posted
looking at the words Baggara and Shuwa they are not so firmly defined
wiki
Baggara
The Baggāra mostly speak Chadian Arabic, with the exception of those in South Kordofan, who speak Sudanese Arabic. They also have a common traditional mode of subsistence, nomadic cattle herding, although nowadays many lead a settled existence. Nevertheless, collectively they do not all necessarily consider themselves one people, i.e., a single ethnic group. The term "baggara culture" was introduced in 1994 by Braukämper.[5]
The political use of the term baggāra in Sudan denoting a particular set of tribes is limited to Sudan. It often means a coalition of majority Arabs and a few indigenous African tribes, mainly the Fur people, Nuba peoples and Fula people, with other Arab tribes of western Sudan, mainly the Juhaynah, as opposed to Bedouin Abbala tribes. The bulk of "baggara Arabs" live in Chad, the rest live, or seasonally migrate to, southwest Sudan (specifically the southern portions of Darfur and Kordofan), and slivers of the Central African Republic, South Sudan, and Niger. Those who are still nomads migrate seasonally between grazing lands in the wet season and river areas in the dry season.
Their common language is known to academics by various names, such as Chadian Arabic, taken from the regions where the language is spoken. For much of the 20th century, this language was known to academics as "Shuwa Arabic", but "Shuwa" is a geographically and socially parochial term that has fallen into disuse among linguists specializing in the language, who instead refer to it as "Chadian Arabic" depending on the origin of the native speakers being consulted for a given academic project.
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Chadian Arabic
This language does not have a native name shared by all its speakers, beyond "Arabic". It arose as the native language of nomadic cattle herders (baggāra, Standard Arabic baqqāra بَقَّارَة, means 'cattlemen', from baqar[4]). Since the publication of a grammar of a Nigerian dialect in 1920,[5] this language has become widely cited academically as "Shuwa Arabic"; however, the term "Shuwa" was in use only among non-Arab people in Borno State. Around 2000, the term "Western Sudanic Arabic" was proposed by a specialist in the language, Jonathan Owens.[6] The geographical sense of "Sudanic" invoked by Owens is not the modern country of Sudan, but the Sahel in general, a region dubbed bilad al-sudan, 'the land of the blacks', by Arabs as far back as the medieval era. In the era of British colonialism in Africa, colonial administrators too used "the Sudan" to mean the entire Sahel.
How this Arabic language arose is unknown. In 1994, Braukämper proposed that it arose in Chad starting in 1635 by the fusion of a population of Arabic speakers with a population of Fulani nomads.
and there was something that I caught the other day that my mind was blinded to for years... is this famous slave art piece... he men are wearing head wraps like Sudanese or like that dude in the pic on Lake Chad..
:Slave dance to banjo, The Old Plantation (anonymous folk painting). Depicts African-American slaves dancing to banjo and percussion Date late 1700s [/QB]
"The ethnomusicologist Michael Coolen tells me the dance in this painting looks like the stick dance still performed by the Jola . Seated next to the banjo player , the drummer has his head covered in a turban ( like a Mandinka ) and plays a drum held between his legs"
p 335 --History in Africa 2005 African Studies Association. Original from:the University of Michigan __________________
The Jola or Diola (endonym: Ajamat) are an ethnic group found in Senegal, the Gambia, and Guinea-Bissau. The traditional religion of the Jola is animism, which is practised through fetishistic rituals and ceremonies. However, the Jola populations living in well-connected areas have become Islamized due to the influence of the nearby Mandinka people.
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posted
LANDUSE AND ENVIRONMENTAL CHANGE IN THE LAKE CHAD BASIN OF NIGERIA K. Reuben Udo Introduction The Lake Chad Basin is a major geographical region in the central part of the Sudan zone of Africa. The northern parts, however, extend into the Sahel and the southern parts of the Sahara desert. It consists of an extensive shallow depression of about 1.536.000 km2 (600.000 miles2) of which about 10% lies in Nigeria. The greater part is shared between the three countries of Cameroon, Chad and Niger. Climatically and agriculturally, the Chad Basin lies within the dry or semi-arid zone of Nigeria. It is a marginal area which has experienced severe droughts and considerable environmental changes in recent years. The natural environment, its use and misuse, and the threat of life posed by environmental pollution dominate discussions on environmental change. But in addition to the natural or physical environment, there are other equally important 'environments' which deserve some attention in view of the role that they play in generating economic growth and in ensuring sustainable development which is the central issue in our concern about the environment. These other environments are the cultural environment, the political environment and the economic environment, both internal and external. In the Chad Basin, all these other environments, along with the natural environment have been greatly influenced by its land locked location in the heart of Africa. As a result of its location far away from the Atlantic Ocean, but close to the Sahara desert, the climate of the Chad Basin is hot, dry and dusty for most of the year. Fortunately, the Chad depression has created an inland lake which is fed by rivers originating from wetter climatic regions in Nigeria and Cameroon. The political and cultural environment is also greatly influenced by the fact that the Chad Basin is the meeting point of the Arabs of North Africa and the Sudanese negro groups of West and Central Africa. The open landscape, with no major physical barriers has continued to facilitate troop movements by rival warring groups and the extensive destruction of settlements and population during these inter group wars. It has also subjected the region to destructive desert storms such as that of May 30th, 1988 which blackened out the Maiduguri area for over one hour at about 3.00 PM. The land pilgrimage routes from West Africa to Mecca pass through the Chad Basin; and so does the eastern trans-Saharan caravan route from 256 Yola, through Kukawa and Bilma to Tripoli. Continuous movements along these routes have resulted in considerable racial intermingling. These movements have contributed towards inter-group struggles for political ascendancy and political instability, especially in the Republic of Chad. In the Nigerian section which includes Borno, Yobe, Jigawa and parts of Bauchi and Kano states the types and pattern of land-use especially where large scale irrigation is carried out, have been influenced by political developments which have favoured large scale investments in water development projects and the creation of new states. Population and the Environment The growing interest in and the increasing concern about landuse and the environment are tied up with the wider issue of sustainable development. It is the extensive exploitation of the organic environment by man for his survival that has caused the depletion of such resources as soils, water, trees, animals and minerals. Population pressure on resources is therefore a key issue in the environment debate. Government concern about the situation in the country, including the Chad Basin is presented in section 3.14 of the 1988 National Policy on Population which observes that: "The present high rate of our population growth is already contributing substantially to the degradation of the ecology of the country. Land fragmentation, over farming, and over grazing have led to soil erosion and desertification ...If the present rapid population growth continues, this situation of the environment and life will worsen (LAGOS, 1988). The natural, political and socio-economic environments of the Chad Basin in Nigeria have attracted more population and large scale investments in farming during the past thirty years. Refugees from the Republic of Chad, which continues to suffer from political instability and intergroup warfare, and from severe droughts in Niger Republic, have continued to move into Nigeria, especially after the Sahelian droughts of 1972-1974. The demand for suitable agricultural land has therefore increased greatly, since much of the region has itself experienced severe droughts and other environmental hazards during this period. The Kanuri, numbering about 1.5 million, make up the largest ethnic group in the Nigerian part of the Chad Basin (they are thought to be of mixed Arab, Kanembu and Tubu descent). Kanuri make up the ruling group in Borno, and most of the original indigenous groups that they had conquered have since adopted the Kanuri language. In turn, the Kanuri have become gradually merged with these groups. Small pockets of pure Kanembu people are found in the Kukawa and Monguno districts. Arabs, whom the Kanuri call Shuwa, make up the second largest group, and are found in the eastern part of Borno. 257 During the past five hundred years of their settlement in the Chad Basin, the Shuwa Arabs have lost most of their ethnic traits, except their language. Of greater importance for this presentation is the fact that they have displayed a remarkable adjustment to the natural environment which was more humid when the Shuwa arrived as nomadic herdsmen over 500 years ago. Since the climate was not suitable for breeding camels which formed the basis Shuwa Arab existence as desert nomads, they were obliged to adopt cattle rearing. An combination of recurring drought and cattle diseases later resulted in the decimation of the cattle population. Thereafter the Shuwa adjusted further and settled down as hoe cultivators; and have since become well known for practising a rudimentary form of mixed farming. In the western and southern part of the Chad Basin, the Hausa form the predominant indigenous population. They are also settled hoe cultivators who own cattle which they put under the care of the nomadic cattle Fulani. Other indigenous groups include the Gamergu, a small group in the middle Yedseram valley who rear cattle and horses and the Mobber of the lower Yobe valley. Smaller groups including the Margi, and the Kilba, occupy the hilly country west of the Mandara mountains where many hill settlements still exist. The most ubiquitous ethnic group in the Chad Basin are the Fulani, who are a relative newcomer to the region. The greatest concentration of the Fulani are in the Hadejia-Nguru wetlands, the Yobe valley and parts of Bauchi State. Culturally, the Chad Basin has been a Muslim stronghold for many centuries. It is on record that Borno was an established Muslim state long before the Fulani Jihad that swept through parts of the Nigerian Sudan. Today the Kanuri and the Shuwa Arabs continue to practice a liberal form of Islam in which women are allowed to participate in public affairs. The population of the entire region was diminished during the late 18th and early 19th centuries, as a result of recurring warfare between the rival states of Borno, Waday and Bargimi. Further, the long standing strained relations between Borno and the Sokoto caliphate became worse during the 1850's, when Borno assisted the rebel governor of Hadejia against the caliphate. The Hausa-Borno borderlands where the wetlands are located became a zone of warfare and general insecurity. As a result of these warfare, many localities which Barth (1857a,.544; 1857c, 582) had described as flourishing and populous in 1851, were "reduced to a state of ruins and misery" three years later, after many people had been killed or carried away as slaves. A thorough investigation of this pre-colonial period depopulation of parts of the Chad Basin is yet to be carried out. It appears that the loss of population and the abandonment of homesteads and waterpoints (wells) had a deteriorating effect on the ecological balance of the localities. Drier conditions appeared to have prevailed in many localities
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: looking at the words Baggara and Shuwa they are not so firmly defined
wiki
Baggara
The Baggāra mostly speak Chadian Arabic, with the exception of those in South Kordofan, who speak Sudanese Arabic. They also have a common traditional mode of subsistence, nomadic cattle herding, although nowadays many lead a settled existence. Nevertheless, collectively they do not all necessarily consider themselves one people, i.e., a single ethnic group. The term "baggara culture" was introduced in 1994 by Braukämper.[5]
The political use of the term baggāra in Sudan denoting a particular set of tribes is limited to Sudan. It often means a coalition of majority Arabs and a few indigenous African tribes, mainly the Fur people, Nuba peoples and Fula people, with other Arab tribes of western Sudan, mainly the Juhaynah, as opposed to Bedouin Abbala tribes. The bulk of "baggara Arabs" live in Chad, the rest live, or seasonally migrate to, southwest Sudan (specifically the southern portions of Darfur and Kordofan), and slivers of the Central African Republic, South Sudan, and Niger. Those who are still nomads migrate seasonally between grazing lands in the wet season and river areas in the dry season.
Their common language is known to academics by various names, such as Chadian Arabic, taken from the regions where the language is spoken. For much of the 20th century, this language was known to academics as "Shuwa Arabic", but "Shuwa" is a geographically and socially parochial term that has fallen into disuse among linguists specializing in the language, who instead refer to it as "Chadian Arabic" depending on the origin of the native speakers being consulted for a given academic project.
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Chadian Arabic
This language does not have a native name shared by all its speakers, beyond "Arabic". It arose as the native language of nomadic cattle herders (baggāra, Standard Arabic baqqāra بَقَّارَة, means 'cattlemen', from baqar[4]). Since the publication of a grammar of a Nigerian dialect in 1920,[5] this language has become widely cited academically as "Shuwa Arabic"; however, the term "Shuwa" was in use only among non-Arab people in Borno State. Around 2000, the term "Western Sudanic Arabic" was proposed by a specialist in the language, Jonathan Owens.[6] The geographical sense of "Sudanic" invoked by Owens is not the modern country of Sudan, but the Sahel in general, a region dubbed bilad al-sudan, 'the land of the blacks', by Arabs as far back as the medieval era. In the era of British colonialism in Africa, colonial administrators too used "the Sudan" to mean the entire Sahel.
How this Arabic language arose is unknown. In 1994, Braukämper proposed that it arose in Chad starting in 1635 by the fusion of a population of Arabic speakers with a population of Fulani nomads.
So.. the question on whether an AA has Baggara ancestry is completely different from whether Baggara's are Arabic..
But are you going to tell me that the West/Euro's are now going to tell Baggara Arabs that they are not really "arabic"
Lawd... I can't
@lioness
what did we learn from the historian? That just like Dana he is guessing.. he has no DNA from anyone in that picture...
you learned that American slaves came from the Upper Guinea.( sahel) and many where probably muslim
I remember you having issue with both of those presuppositions
Now.. trust me... it goes deeper than just the upper sahel.. but I am not going to give it to you. It is up to you to study..
There are slaves routes in Upper Ghana, Upper Nigeria and upper Cameroon
All places where Baggara Arabs could be and Fulani and Hausa, and some Berber..
There is a possibility that many AA's have one or two ancestors from these groups.
Everyone has to do their own DNA test and not just assume the average or the bell curve is your total ancestry
Imam is full Shuwa Arab, grandchild of Late Sheikh Usman Al-kolo "Imam Saleh", one of the prominent voices of Shuwa Arab globally.
He is a sasoned Journalist with vast experience in Broadcast media industy.many BBC'c audience, knnows him on his superb, and stylish presentation.
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: She's saying that some people who have done a genetic ancestry test and came back as (North) Nigerian, might have Shuwa or Baqqara ancestry as well. Since these groups have trace regions in Nigeria.
That's what guy Al Aemer suggests with his 23&me genetic outcome.
But northern Nigeria is such a large region and those Arab groups make up a small minority. There's a far greater chance of Berber ancestry through the Fulani and even still the Fulani are small in numbers compared to the Hausa.
That is true, the North is predominantly islamic. Fulani, Tuareg, Hausa.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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So.. the question on whether an AA has Baggara ancestry is completely different from whether Baggara's are Arabic..
But are you going to tell me that the West/Euro's are now going to tell Baggara Arabs that they are not really "arabic"
Lawd... I can't
@lioness
what did we learn from the historian? That just like Dana he is guessing.. he has no DNA from anyone in that picture...
You only quoted my post on the history of the Baggara/Shuwa language. Previous to that I posted a few posts on the genetics
The Baggara in Chad are culturally Arab but there is not strong evidence for their having ancestry in the Arabian Pensisula. However there are slightly more Baggara in Sudan about 3 million
Sudanese Arabs, 67% of Arakien, 43% of Meseria, and 40% of Gaalien individuals carry the haplogroup J.
Some of the Sudanese Arabs have this Arab marker, haplogroup J
However I'm not sure about the Bagarra in particular
_________________________________
wiki
Sudanese Arabs
The great majority of the Sudanese Arabs are split into four larger tribal groups: the Ja'alin, who primarily live along the Nile River, the Juhaynah who include the Rufaa, Shukriya, and Kababish tribe who live east and west of it, the Banu Fazara who live in Northern Kordofan, and the Kawahala.
Additionally, other smaller Sudanese groups who have also been Arabized, or partially Arabized, but retain a separate, non-Arab identity, include the Nubians, Copts, and Beja.
While most Sudanese Arabs speak some form of Sudanese Arabic, some other Arab tribes speak different Arabic dialects like the Awadia and Fadnia tribes and the Bani Hassan, Al-Ashraf and Rashaida who speak Hejazi Arabic. In addition, Western province tribes like the Baggara and Darfurians) speak Chadian Arabic, although they have great variation in cultural and genealogy aspects.Sudanese Arabs descend primarily from migrants from the Arabian Peninsula and some of the pre-existing indigenous populations of Sudan, most predominantly the Beja people and the Nubian people who also share a common history with Egypt. In addition, a few Arabian tribes existed in Sudan prior to the advent of Islam.[8] Nevertheless, most Arab tribes migrated into the Sudan in the 12th century and introduced Islam.[9]
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: She's saying that some people who have done a genetic ancestry test and came back as (North) Nigerian, might have Shuwa or Baqqara ancestry as well. Since these groups have trace regions in Nigeria.
That's what guy Al Aemer suggests with his 23&me genetic outcome.
No she is saying that based on her opinion of looks
and then a person comments that their DNA results show ancestry from Chad, Nigeria and Niger.
And her follow up comment is "Exactly what I thought, you are probably more Arab than African"
Yes, she based it on physical attributes, when he told her his genetic composition. But it's odd that he didn't mention anything about Middle Eastern genetic ties.
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Exactly, and again lets not forget we know what the majority of Arab haplogroups are and we know what majority of African Americans and Nigerians are as well
There exists a whole range of folks from Nigritos, Indians, and others who resemble Africans but are distinct genetically...yet people are still playing games like its still the early 2000s...
quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: She's saying that some people who have done a genetic ancestry test and came back as (North) Nigerian, might have Shuwa or Baqqara ancestry as well. Since these groups have trace regions in Nigeria.
That's what guy Al Aemer suggests with his 23&me genetic outcome.
But northern Nigeria is such a large region and those Arab groups make up a small minority. There's a far greater chance of Berber ancestry through the Fulani and even still the Fulani are small in numbers compared to the Hausa.
The Arabic population that moved to that region predominantly came from Yemen. At least that is what oral traditions tell.
“African and Middle Eastern populations shared the greatest number of alleles absent from all other populations (fig. S6B).
~Sarah A. Tishkoff, The Genetic Structure and History of Africans and African Americans
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However in terms of AAs having genetic ancestry from the Arabian peninsula we can cut to the chase and no have to focus on the Baggara but instead the Arabian marker YDNA haplogroup J1
There are many Arab groups in Africa that could be a source of J1 and then mixing with local Africans
So simply look at some studies on AAs and optionally add some youtube personal DNA test result videos and see who has the J1
I haven't researched this yet as per hap J prevalence in AAs As far as significant frequencies of J1 in Africa, Chad is not the place
Between 1719-1721, there were seven slave ships that arrived in the Tidewater region of Virginia with enslaved Malagasy in their cargo holds. There were roughly 1,300 enslaved Malagasy who ended up in Virginia during the 1719-1721 time period.
There was also an unknown slave ship that arrived in Virginia from Madagascar in 1686 that had 210 Malagasy onboard. This would mean around approximately 1,500 enslaved Malagasy survived the Middle Passage and took up residence in Virginia. ___________________________________
As we see all of this is closer to the Arabian peninsula on the East side of Africa and Islam which had spread to West Africa was more cultural than a biological admixture with people from the Arabia peninsula.
Some AA's do have these roots to East/Horn Africans As for the Malagasy of Madagascar, today they are recorded as 5.7% of J I don't know if that was similar at the time of the 1,500 slaves that were brought to Virginia
but we can see the highest percentages of J are with Nubians and people of the horn
Dana never claimed that the AA had ancestry from the peninsula.. she just said he resembled a Baggara.. thats it
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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Why is it so hard to believe that an AA might have an ancestor that is Baggara... I mean that is all Dana said..
Just look at the map.... and read what the woman said...
All of this area is Sahel or Savanna totally walkable, pastoral, horses, donkeys, oxen...
The man and women in particularly had headscarfs on. One man appears to wear a turban.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: quit changing the argument por favor...
Dana never claimed that the AA had ancestry from the peninsula.. she just said he resembled a Baggara.. thats it
when the word "ancestry" is used it strongly implies genetics. She used the word "Arab"
People don't usually say things like "Christian ancestry" , "Islamic heritage" would be more fitting
However when somebody brought up their genetic test in the comment she confirms this biological aspect
Dana may not be aware of the Baggara genetics. but we can see other places in Africa with strong Arabian DNA
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the Baggāra (Arabic: بقَّارة "cattle herder"[5]) are a grouping of Arab ethnic groups inhabiting the portion of Africa's Sahel mainly between Lake Chad and southern Kordofan, numbering over six million.[6] They are known as Baggara in Sudan,[7] and as Shuwa/Diffa Arabs in Chad and Nigeria.
ORIGINS The origin of the Baggara is determined. According to a MacMichael, the group arrived in Wadai between Bornu and Darfur, where they spread from 1635 onwards through the fusion of the Arabic speaking population with the indigenous groups. Like other Arabic speaking tribes in the Sahara and the Sahel, Baggara tribes have origin ancestry from the Juhaynah Arab tribe s who migrated directly from the Arabian peninsula or from other parts of north Africa.
NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOUR OPINION on who is Arabic and who is not... THE WORLD HAS MOVED ON...
Get this dance...
You can walk from the Nile to Wadai from Wadai you can walk to Kano Kano is now in Nigeria You can Hajj from old Oyo, back to Kano, to Wadai and then back again
Geography of the Sahel. This was an area of colonial competition between France and Great Britain. Note that Dar Tama tribal lands span the border between modern Chad and Sudan. The Ouaddai Empire commanded the slave trading routes to Benghazi.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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Why is it so hard to believe that an AA might have an ancestor that is Baggara... I mean that is all Dana said..
Just look at the map.... and read what the woman said...
All of this area is Sahel or Savanna totally walkable, pastoral, horses, donkeys, oxen...
The man and women in particularly had headscarfs on. One man appears to wear a turban.
two men have turbans.. the one dancing a head scarf
on another note...
The Baggara of Darfur and Kordofan were the backbone of the Mahdist revolt against Turko-Egyptian rule in Sudan in the 1880s. The Mahdi's second-in-command, the Khalifa Abdallahi ibn Muhammad, was himself a Baggara of the Ta'aisha tribe. During the Mahdist period (1883–98) tens of thousands of Baggara migrated to Omdurman and central Sudan where they provided many of the troops for the Mahdist armies.
There is a great movie about this war... Four Feathers British 1939.. technicolor.. shot on location... lots of Beja used as extras.. and Baggara I'm sure EXTRAORDINARY movie.. I still wonder why I never saw this movie as a kid on American broadcast TV.. however, with the whites getting their assess handed to them by the muslims that is probably the reason
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: Baggara Arabs is that a thing?
.
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quote:Originally posted by Dana Marniche:
A lot of African American people probably have Shuwa or Baqqara Arab ancestry from Nigeria and Chad who extend from the modern region of Sudan through the Chad and Niger Region
Contrary to the wishful thinking of many Americans and the distortions of Europeans most so-called Shuwa or Baqqara of Sudan are Arabs that are less mixed than most people in Arabia today, preserving the early and ancient Arab phenotype. Due to the similarity between Arab tribal names found in Sudan and among the Banu Harb, Harold MacMichael once wrote "there seems small reason to doubt that the Bakkara tribe of the Sudan contain numerous elements that are also common to the Beni Harb of the Hegaz.
In fact the indigenous al-Salamat bedouin in Arabia are descendants of Arabian peoples who during the early Muslim invasions of the Suleym-Hilal (“sons of Mansur”) peoples, emigrated through Chad and Sudan where they made and still make up part of the Arabs called Shuwa in Chad and Libya and Cameroon and moved westward into Niger and the Emirates of Nigeria (Holl, Augustin, 2003, p. 24, 26, 46; Temple, O, 2009, p.25).
Is English your first language? Just curious... cause sometimes you are not picking up on sarcasm
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In the British period, the Baggara were a major support for the Mahdist Muslim rebellion against the British-Ottoman rule of Sudan. They were major figures in the Mahdist administration actually implemented after the death of the Mahdi.
The Baggara led the new Caliphat in an invasion of Ethiopia in 1887, finally killing Ethiopian King Yohannes IV in 1889. They invaded Egypt in 1889 and were repulsed from Eritrea by the Italians in 1893. _________________________
The Mahdist War (1881–99) was a war of the late 19th century between the Mahdist Sudanese of the religious leader Muhammad Ahmad bin Abd Allah, who had proclaimed himself the "Mahdi" of Islam (the "Guided One"), and the forces of the Khedivate of Egypt, initially, and later the forces of Britain. Eighteen years of war resulted in the nominally joint-rule state of the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan (1899–1956), a de jure condominium of the British Empire and the Kingdom of Egypt in which Britain had de facto control over the Sudan. The Sudanese launched several unsuccessful invasions of their neighbours, expanding the scale of the conflict to include not only Britain and Egypt but the Italian Empire, the Congo Free State and the Ethiopian Empire.
The British participation in the war is called the Sudan campaign. Other names for this war include the "Mahdist Revolt", the "Anglo–Sudan War" and the "Sudanese Mahdist Revolt".
Ahmad bin Abd Allah
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: Baggara Arabs is that a thing?
.
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quote:Originally posted by Dana Marniche:
A lot of African American people probably have Shuwa or Baqqara Arab ancestry from Nigeria and Chad who extend from the modern region of Sudan through the Chad and Niger Region
Is Dana wrong? these areas have always been accessible and hold bi directional movement with Lake Chad being the crossroads...
Writing in 990 CE, Al-Muhallabi (translated from Cuoq 1975: 78) states that:
“This kingdom [Kawkaw] is more prosperous than that of the Zaghawa [Kanem-Borno], although the country of the latter is larger. (…) It is a country south of Ifrikiya [Tunisia]. (…) The Zaghawa kingdom is one of the most extensive. To the east it borders on the Nuba kingdom in Upper Egypt, and between them there is a ten-day march. They consist of many peoples. The length of their country is 15 stages as much as wide (...).”
10Writing in 1286 CE, Ibn Said (in Cuoq 1975: 209-211) comments that:
“At an angle of the lake, 51° longitude, is Matan, one of the famous towns of Kanem, at 13° of latitude. South of this town is the capital of Kanem, Djimi, at 53° longitude and 9° latitude minus a few minutes. Here resides the sultan famous for his jihad and his acts of virtue. (...) Of this sultan depend [the countries] like the sultanate of Tadjuwa, the kingdoms of Kawar and Fazzan. (...) East of Matan, there are the territories of the Zaghawa, who are mostly Muslims under the authority of the ruler of Kanem.
Between the south-east bank [of the Nile] and Tadjuwa, the capital of Zaghawa, 100 miles to go. It is located at 55 longitude and 14° latitude. Its inhabitants became Muslims under the authority of the sovereign of Kanem. (...) The territories of Tadjuwa and Zaghawa extend over the distance between the arc of the Nile (...). They [the Tadjuwa and Zaghawa] form only one race, (...). They are idolatrous, in rebellion against the sovereign of Kanem; they live in the desert and the mountains (...).” Writing in 990 CE, Al-Muhallabi (translated from Cuoq 1975: 78) states that:
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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A lot of African American people probably have Shuwa or Baqqara Arab ancestry from Nigeria and Chad who extend from the modern region of Sudan through the Chad and Niger Region
Is Dana wrong? these areas have always been accessible and hold bi directional movement with Lake Chad being the crossroads...
In therms of genetics the first place she mentioned is Nigeria. Baggara and Abbala "Arabs" there are about 300,000 The Nigeria population 200 million.
The Arab genetic marker is J1 I haven't seen evidence for significant frequencies of J1 in Nigeria. Nigeria is where 16.34% of slaves incoming to the United Sates came from, Chad and Sudan too little to list. Malagasy 1.21% , that was 1,500 slaves coming into Virgina. They might have had some Arab ancestry about 6% but if they were mixed at that time, the ones who went to America. There were also some from Kenya well under 1%
If somebody wants to say African American people probably have Shuwa or Baqqara Arab ancestry the burden of proof is on them. Hard evidence would be the presence of YDNA haplogroup J1.
I have shown you can find plenty of J1 not particular to the Baggara but to high frequencies of J1, the Arab component in the horn and Nubians of Sudan prominently
However of people leaving Africa they are by and large part of the Arab slave, East Africa trade into the Middle East and North Africa, add in European slaves -not much part of the Transatlantic slave trade to America
In regard to AAs and Arab ancestry it is better to determine the Arab genetic ancestry first, the presence of J1 and then speculate what part of Africa it came from second
Until I see research otherwise excluding East African immigration to the U.S. I think Arab ancestry in AAs is low on average (despite a relatively higher Islamic religion heritage)
Come on, people scream against back migration in the forum but now you're wanting it if it's from Arabia ? You want to be part Arab?
I can understand that if you are a Muslim but otherwise not. Also in these Muslims groups in Africa they often exaggerate their ties to Mecca. That is a religious thing. People of other religions sometimes do that as well, try to exaggerate their bloodline ancestral connection to the heartland of the religion
Also you will see percentages that say something like 60% of group A has ancestry from group C. But they leave out that the average amount of such ancestry which might be 2% per individual
Personally I don't care about this ancestry stuff that much. It's more impressive when somebody rises up from an un-illustrious background
Somebody could also come up with a theory that J1 does not represent the original Arabs but I have not seen such an argument and if they had such an argument I would expect some other distinguishing genetic marker be proposed.
However "Arab" like "Jewish" terms are also tied into cultural and religious identity
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: Baggara Arabs is that a thing?
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quote:Originally posted by Dana Marniche:
A lot of African American people probably have Shuwa or Baqqara Arab ancestry from Nigeria and Chad who extend from the modern region of Sudan through the Chad and Niger Region
Is Dana wrong? these areas have always been accessible and hold bi directional movement with Lake Chad being the crossroads...
Writing in 990 CE, Al-Muhallabi (translated from Cuoq 1975: 78) states that:
“This kingdom [Kawkaw] is more prosperous than that of the Zaghawa [Kanem-Borno], although the country of the latter is larger. (…) It is a country south of Ifrikiya [Tunisia]. (…) The Zaghawa kingdom is one of the most extensive. To the east it borders on the Nuba kingdom in Upper Egypt, and between them there is a ten-day march. They consist of many peoples. The length of their country is 15 stages as much as wide (...).”
10Writing in 1286 CE, Ibn Said (in Cuoq 1975: 209-211) comments that:
“At an angle of the lake, 51° longitude, is Matan, one of the famous towns of Kanem, at 13° of latitude. South of this town is the capital of Kanem, Djimi, at 53° longitude and 9° latitude minus a few minutes. Here resides the sultan famous for his jihad and his acts of virtue. (...) Of this sultan depend [the countries] like the sultanate of Tadjuwa, the kingdoms of Kawar and Fazzan. (...) East of Matan, there are the territories of the Zaghawa, who are mostly Muslims under the authority of the ruler of Kanem.
Between the south-east bank [of the Nile] and Tadjuwa, the capital of Zaghawa, 100 miles to go. It is located at 55 longitude and 14° latitude. Its inhabitants became Muslims under the authority of the sovereign of Kanem. (...) The territories of Tadjuwa and Zaghawa extend over the distance between the arc of the Nile (...). They [the Tadjuwa and Zaghawa] form only one race, (...). They are idolatrous, in rebellion against the sovereign of Kanem; they live in the desert and the mountains (...).” Writing in 990 CE, Al-Muhallabi (translated from Cuoq 1975: 78) states that:
As for my opinion, East/West Migration between East and West Africa or Northern and Southern Africa predates the existence of "Arabs" by thousands of years. And the "Baggara" are not he only group that are known to have been migrating between these regions since the Arab invasion of North Africa. Not to mention we know that the migration of Nilotic Africans was part of the history of Southern Africa as well. The point being that West Africans have never been isolated genetically or culturally from the rest of Africa. This is a nonsense myth. So of course African Americans can have genetic input from a range of African groups, including Hausa, Fulani, Tuareg and so forth. The idea that the East West corridor for Africans starts and ends with Arabs or is centered around "Arab" identity is a bit ridiculous.
quote: The Hausa (autonyms for singular: Bahaushe (m), Bahaushiya (f); plural: Hausawa and general: Hausa; exonyms: Ausa; Francophonic spelling: Haoussa) are the largest ethnic group in Sub-Saharan Africa. The Hausa are a diverse but culturally homogeneous people based primarily in the Sahelian and the sparse savanna areas of southern Niger and northern Nigeria respectively, numbering over 80 million people with significant indigenized populations in Benin, Cameroon, Ivory Coast, Chad, Sudan, Central African Republic, Republic of the Congo, Togo, Ghana, Eritrea, Equatorial Guinea, Gabon, Senegal and the Gambia.
And this just reinforces the point that West Africans have never been an isolated sedentary population. They have always moved around and obviously that is how humans left Africa and settled the planet in the first place. That nomadic nature of human existence is not something introduced to Africa by "Arabs".
I cannot speak for Dana, but hearing this just sounds like attribution of any sort of "advanced" behaviors being attributed to non Africans. In this case, things like being mobile and having encampments carried by donkeys are supposedly something distinctly non African and therefore introduced into Africa. But the fact of the drying Sahara 10,000 years ago is a perfect example for local evolution of said behaviors, non Africans not required.
quote: Wadi Howar is the remnant of the ancient Yellow Nile, a tributary of the Nile during the Neolithic Subpluvial from about 9500 to 4500 years ago. At that time Savanna fauna and cattle-herders occupied this region and the southern edge of the Sahara was some 500 km further north than it is today. When the Sahara underwent desertification between 6000 and 4000 years ago, the wadi first became a chain of freshwater lakes and marshes, as shown by Ptolemy's world map, then it became extinct about 2000 years ago.[1]:28
Abundant prehistoric sites certify Wadi Howar as a once ecologically favoured area of settlement and a communication route between the inner regions of Africa and the Nile Valley.[1]:31 The hitherto most thoroughly investigated archaeological site in the wadi is Gala Abu Ahmed.
the original point Dana made was that the AA man may have a Baggara ancestor... My point was the individual AA's may have a Baggara ancestor and each to his own test... and not to the curve..
Since you are making this prevelant to J1.. which is a ridiculous argument because MTDNA's count too nevertheless
I post this pic.. of AA men from Philadelphia as compared to men from Senegal and EURO men..
there is a j1 and j2 in there which proves my original argument.. there may be a person here or there with bagarra ancestor.. is that the norm or majority of AA's obvio not... but I never argued that in the first place
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: I went back over that nice looking pie chart to verify what you said here but realized there's no R1a, Q and I listed for Chad That Pie chart was apparently all the groups studied but doesn't break them down on the chart > Samples were collected from Chad (238), Lebanon (126), Greece (96), and Yemen (20)
So I took it down and posted the detailed table from the same article that does break down by country (in that earlier post)
As for J1 in Chad 1% of the Toubou sample but 13% in N'Djamena but 0 elsewhere
N'Djamena is the capital and largest city of Chad. A variety of religions are practiced in the city, but with a clear Islamic predominance. The main ethnic groups are: Daza (16.97%), Chadian Arabs (11.08%), Hadjerai (9.15%), Ngambaye (6.41%), Bilala (5.83%), Kanembu (5.80%), Maba (4.84%), Kanuri (4.39%), Gor (3.32%), Kuka (3.20%), Sara (2.24%), and Barma (2.10%).
Chadian Arabic (also known as Shuwa Arabic;, Baggara Arabic, and, most recently, Western Sudanic Arabic) is one of the regional colloquial varieties of Arabic and is the first language of some 1.6 million people (2015)
Chad pop 15.48 million (2018)
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ISSOG
Paragroup R1b1* and R1b1a2-V88 are found most frequently in SW Asia and Africa. The African examples are almost entirely within R1b1a2 and are associated with the spread of Chadic languages.
Good catch. I thought it was just chad. Interesting study.
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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there is a j1 and j2 in there which proves my original argument.. there may be a person here or there with bagarra ancestor.. is that the norm or majority of AA's obvio not... but I never argued that in the first place
[/QB]
what is the title of the above article or link?
No, if you had been reading the data I posted it shows that the Bagarra in Chad don't have this Arab marker J1. They are Arab culturally They are predominantly E1 and the African clade of R1b which is regarded Eurasian in origin but evolved a few thousand years ago into an African clade R1b-V88
IF you want to look at Arabian genetics in Africans there are several other Muslim African populations that have high frequencies of J1, the so called Arab marker believed to have originated on the Arabian peninsula, Nubians, Ethiopians, certain Berbers, Beja, certain Arab groups in Sudan
The Baggara in Sudan might carry J1 I don't know but Baggara in Sudan are part of that East Africa thing. When Islam gets into West Africa there is some but much less mixing with the Arabs
So if you look at this chart and see this one AA who carries J1 the most likely scenarios is they have East African/Horn ancestry also though they could be from elsewhere
Dana just likes the Baggara she thinks they are super cool so she hyped them
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Yes, these are factual statements.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Dana said She believes Arabs of several thousand years ago were black and that the Arabian peninsula should be seen as part of Africa
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Notably the Baggara in Chad don't have the Arab genetic marker J1 (see the table I posted S4 back a couple)
Ah the "Arabian paternal ancestor, no matter how many generations [distant], whose genetic trace may have [ahem] somehow disappeared".
But what of the Arabian mother?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ~10% of Sudanese Arabs belonged to sublineages of the Eurasian macrohaplogroup N Arakien: 6% preHV1, 6% N1a, 6% N/J1b; Gaalien: 9% preHV1; Meseria: 7% N/J1b).
Remember Cerny 2006
quote:Arabic-speaking populations – the first made up of nomadic tribes migrating in Kanem and Bagirmi in Chad (N = 27), and the second composed of semi-nomadic Shuwa Arabs from the Borno state in Nigeria (N = 38)
a non-negligible 5–6%, however, are of West Eurasian origin. This West Eurasian component (e.g. pre-HV, members of haplogroup U, etc.) is more prevalent in the Semitic nomadic group of the Afro-Asiatic phylum, represented mainly by the Arabic tribes from Chad that account for the five (pre-HV) sequences detected, and to a lesser extent by the semi-nomadic Shuwa Arabs of Nigeria as well.
L0a is absent in Shuwa Arabs L1b is completely absent ... in the Arabs from Chad L1c in the Chad Basin is represented ... except for the Arab groups. L2a is ... relatively frequent in nomadic Arabs (33%) L2b is ... absent in both Arab groups L2c or L2d ... are virtually absent in both Arabic groups L3e is ... found in ... Shuwa Arabs (24%) L3e ... with the exception of the Arabs from Chad L3f is ... probably of East African origin ... L3f1 appears to have spread at an early date ... probably into the Arabian Peninsula
all the evidence points to the Chad Basin having been set apart from the African scenario of the Atlantic slave trade. [?]
It is interesting that the Arab-speaking populations fit well (e.g. PCA and MDS) with the Chad Basin sub- Saharan variability, despite their distinctive phenotypical appearance. [?]
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I got no idea what N1a, J1b, pre-HV, and non-U6 U are like in Arabia.
quote:
the Arabian Peninsula has received substantial gene flow from Africa (20%), detected by the presence of L, M1 and U6 lineages;
that an 18% of the Arabian Peninsula lineages have a clear eastern provenance, mainly represented by U lineages; but also by Indian M lineages and rare M links with Central Asia, Indonesia and even Australia.
However, the bulk (62%) of the Arabian lineages has a Northern source.
evidence of Neolithic and more recent expansions in the Arabian Peninsula, mainly detected by (preHV)1 and J1b lineages, the lack of primitive auto- chthonous M and N sequences, suggests that this area has been more a receptor of human migrations,
Genetic polymorphism along mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) defines population-specific signatures called mtDNA haplogroups. Estimation of mtDNA haplogroup distribution may be prone to errors, notably if the study sample is not drawn from a multicenter cohort. Here, we report on mtDNA diversity in a sample of African American individuals (n = 343) enrolled in a multicenter cohort. Sequencing of the hypervariable regions I and II of the D-loop control region showed that the most common mitochondrial variants are 73G, 146C, 150T, 152C, 189G, 16278T, and 16311C. In agreement with the published data, we observed 17 common mtDNA haplogroups: L0, L1, L1b, L1c, L2, L2a, L2b, L2c, L2e, L3, L3b, L3d, L3e, L3f, L3h, L3x, and L4. The most commonly observed haplogroup is L2a (19.8%), followed by L1b (10.2%). Overall, the observed mtDNA haplogroup distribution in our study is similar to those published for the African American and the African populations.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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it looks good in the picture, including fresh spinach, onions, tomatoes and peanut butter (sugerless) Similar sauce to the Senegal chicken with peanut sauce I might use homemade cashew butter instead, it's all good
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Brill's Encyclopaedia of Islam (1986 & 1997) entries
quote:BAKKARA. Arabic-speaking nomads of the Sudan, occupying territories from Lake Chad to the White Nile between 9° and 13° N.
Their livelihood is the herding of cattle (bakar), whence their name. The dry season is spent in the southern river-lands. With the rains, they move northwards to the seasonal grasslands. Grain sown on this journey is harvested on the return.
Bakkara origins are obscure; the genealogies reflect existing groupings rather than give evidence of descent. They are probably connected with the Djuhayna, who irrupted into Nubia from Egypt in the 14th century. From the Nile, nomadic groups apparently made their way by the 17th century to the lands between Waddai and Lake Chad.
Fusion with other elements from North Africa may account for the tradition of a Hilali origin among some Bakkara. Penetrating southwards into regions unsuitable for camel-breeding, they turned to cattle. Groups pushing eastwards, to the south of the cultivated areas of Waddai, Dar Fur and Kordofan, (which were under Islamised dynasties) formed an Arab wedge between these sultanates and the pagan tribes who retreated southwards.
southern pagans and consequent intermarriage have affected the physical type of the Bakkara.
I'd rather say there was fusion where perhaps Africans absorbed (Hilali?) Arab elements and adopted Arab identity since it's not said where in Africa the Baggara first appear in history as no Djuhayna tradition is reported like for Hilal.
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quote:SHUWA (etymology of this name obscure), a group of Arabs, of nomadic origin, found by early modern times (the 19th century) in the central Sudan belt of Africa, now coming within the countries bordering on Lake Chad, sc. western Chad, northeastern Nigeria, northern Cameroons and the southeastern tip of Niger.
1. History. Their origin was in Darfur and Waday [qvv], and they migrated westwards at an unknown date, perhaps as early as the 14th century; in the 17th century they were present in Bagirmi [q.v] to the southeast of Lake Chad as that nation took shape.
The earliest arrivals adopted the Kanuri language, but in the main they preserved their Arabic dialect, distinct from the Arabic of North Africa and the Western Sudan [see below, 2.].
A further impetus to their westwards migration was when, in the early 19th century, Shaykh Muhammad al-Kanemi [q.v] used them as aides against the eastwards advance of the Fulani. The Shuwa do not seem to have passed beyond Borno or Bornu [q.v] in northeastern Nigeria, and only small numbers went southwards to the Mardawa and Adamawa regions.
Some of the Shuwa remained pure camel nomads (the abbala), but others converted to cattle nomadism (the bakkara) and some became agriculturists around the southern shores of Lake Chad, where there arose Shuwa villages, cultivation being done by [] serfs or clients.
2. Dialect. The term Shuwa (الشوا) refers to the spoken Arabic dialect and its approximately 2 million speakers who currently inhabit the former territories of Bagirmi [q.v.] and Kanem [q.v.] -Borno, today's Borno State [see BORNU], Northeast Nigeria, and parts of Cameroon and Chad. The largest concentration of Shuwa Arabs presently lives in and around Maiduguri.
There is no consensus on the etymology of the word Shuwa. The people themselves favour a Kanuri [q.v.] (Nilo-Saharan) etymon S*wa "beautiful"; however, much more probable is an Arabic source siwah "sheep" (sing, sah), demonstrating that the Shuwas are part of Baggara Arab culture.
Shuwa Arabic is but one micro-dialect of a distinct Sudanic macro-dialect spoken between Lake Chad and the Red Sea. A major characteristic of Shuwa Arabic is the preservation of Old Arabic (OA) short vowels, especially a, in unaccented open syllables (kabir "big"), which have elided in the Maghrib and the Levant. Another is that it has no diglossia with Modern Standard Arabic.
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