posted
This time it is not me, xyyman, saying it. From their own mouths. Remember my thread "Not even the Vikings were White”?. I guess they read my thread. Lol! Hollywood did a number on us. Ha! Ha! Reminds me of the Rocky statue in Philly – Some whites now believe he was real. Lol!
In the popular imagination, Vikings were fearsome blonde-haired warriors from Scandinavia who used longboats to carry out raids across Europe in a brief but bloody reign of terror. But the reality is much more complex, according to an analysis of the genomes of 442 ancient humans from archaeological sites in Scandinavia, the United Kingdom, Ireland, Iceland, Greenland, Estonia, Ukraine, Poland and other Eastern European countries.
“We didn’t know genetically what they actually looked like until now,” said lead author Professor Eske Willerslev, a researcher at the University of Cambridge and director of the University of Copenhagen’s Lundbeck Foundation GeoGenetics Centr
“Our research even debunks the modern image of Vikings with blonde hair as many had brown hair and were influenced by genetic influx from the outside of Scandinavia.”
They also revealed that male skeletons from a Viking burial site in Orkney, Scotland, were not actually genetically Vikings despite being buried with swords and other Viking memorabilia.xyyman - HA! HA! HA! WTF are they saying. SMH Because they are not blonds they are not Vikings WTF!
=== From the actual study
Quote: “The first evidence of South European ancestry (>50%) in Scandinavia is during the Viking Age in Denmark (for example, individuals VK365 and VK286 from Bogøvej) and southern Sweden (for example, VK442 and VK350 from Öland, and VK265 from Kärda) (Fig. 4, Supplementary Table 6).”
So the Vikings were Southern Europeans ie may be North Africans. You know how they do they stop at Sardinia and refuse to sample North Africa when all logical scenario suggest North Africa is a better sample point.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Meanwhile Smokin' Joe who rose from the Black ghetto, where's his statue in his native Philadelphia? The man's a real life example of overcoming life's odds to achieve WorldClass recognition.
Yes the intent of the Rocky statue, a figure of fantasy from some author's imagination, was that eventually everybody would replace the 60s-70s Great Black Boxers of memory with an Italian fantasy.
posted
Yep. I wonder how long they have been doing this?. False images...statues.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Not having "blonde hair" doesn't mean one is not "white". One can still be white with brown hair.
Secondly, what is meant by "influenced by genetic influx from the outside of Scandinavia"?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Dubgaill and Finngaill, or Dubgenti and Finngenti, are Middle Irish terms used to denote different rival groups of Vikings in Ireland and Britain. Literally, Dub-/Finngaill is translated as "dark and fair foreigners"[1] or "black and white foreigners",[2] and similarly, Dub-/Finngenti as "dark/black" and "fair/white heathens". Similar terms are found in Welsh chronicles, probably derived from Gaelic usag
The first known use of these terms in the chronicles is from 851, when it is noted that "The Dubhghoill arrived in Ath Cliath [Dublin], and made a great slaughter of the Finnghoill".[note 1] The terms appear, with various spellings, in entries in Irish annals from the 9th and 10th century, and are also used and interpreted in later historiography.
The literary meaning of Old Irish and Old Welsh Dub is normally given as "dark" or "black", while Middle Irish finn (Old Irish find, Modern Irish fionn) is given as "light" or "white".[3] Smyth, referring to the Dictionary of the Irish Language by the Royal Irish Academy,[6] adds that Dub can mean "gloomy" or "melancholy" in a moral sense, and has the intensive meaning of "great" or "mighty". For finn there are the additional meanings of "handsome", "just" and "true
quote:hinngallaibh is translated "fair-haired foreigners".[10] According to Smyth, the most bizarre explanation of the terms was put forward by Jan de Vries. He suggested that the "Black foreigners" were Moorish slaves, carried off to Ireland in a Viking raid on North Africa.[8]
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The assigned haplogroups are provided in the Supplementary Table 5. As with the mitochondrial DNA haplogroups, the overall distribution profile of the Y chromosomal haplogroups in the VA samples was similar to that of the modern northern European populations. The most frequently encountered male lineages were the haplogroups I1, R1b, and R1a. Among the ancient samples, two individuals had derived haplogroups identified as E1b1b1-M35.1, which are frequently encountered in modern southern Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa183. Interestingly, the individuals carrying these haplogroups had much less Scandinavian ancestry compared to the most samples inferred from haplotype-based analysis. A similar pattern was also observed for less frequent haplogroups in our ancient dataset, such as G (n=3), J (n=3) and T (n=2), indicating a possible non-Scandinavian male genetic component in VA northern Europe. Interestingly, individuals carrying these haplogroups were from the later VA (10th century CE and younger), which might indicate some male gene influx into the Viking population during the Viking period. It is worth mentioning that due to the small sample size of the rare haplogroups, these differences might be of stochastic nature and therefore the results based on uniparental markers should be interpreted with caution.
Published: 16 September 2020 Population genomics of the Viking world Ashot Margaryan, Daniel J. Lawson, […]Eske Willerslev
posted
two individuals had derived haplogroups identified as E1b1b1-M35.1, which are frequently encountered in modern southern Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa183.
^^Does this mean that among them there Vikings was some of the brothas taking care of bidnass?
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova: [QB] two individuals had derived haplogroups identified as E1b1b1-M35.1, which are frequently encountered in modern southern Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa183.
details on the two individuals
from the table supplement
Published: 16 September 2020 Population genomics of the Viking world Ashot Margaryan, Daniel J. Lawson, […]Eske Willerslev
VK362 Bogøvej in Langeland, Denmark 10th century CE, Tooth
YDNA E1b1b1a1b1a
mtDNA V7b
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2)
(368)
VK474 Kopparsvik, Gotland (Sweden's largest island) 900-1050 CE Petrous Male
YDNA E1b1b1b2a (M123)
mtDna J1d
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wiki
Haplogroup E-V68
1) E1b1b1a1b1a (V13)
Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
— Cruciani et al. (2007)
According to some authors E-V13 appears to have originated in Greece or the southern Balkans and its presence in the rest of the Mediterranean is likely a consequence of Greek colonization.[22][23][24] Within Europe, E-V13 is especially common in the Balkans and some parts of Italy. In different studies, particularly high frequencies have been observed in Kosovo Albanians (45.6%[25]), Macedonian Albanians (34.4%[14]), Albanians (32.29%Cruciani et al. (2007)) , and in some parts of Greece (ca. 35%[26]).[27] More generally, high frequencies have also been found in other areas of Greece, and amongst Bulgarians, Romanians, Macedonians and Serbs.[6][13][28][29]
Within Italy, frequencies tend to be higher in Southern Italy,[2] with particularly high results sometimes seen in particular areas; for example, in Santa Ninfa and Piazza Armerina in Sicily.[30] High frequencies appear to exist also in some northern areas[Note 3] for example around Venice,[Note 4] Genoa[31] and Rimini,[32] as well as on the island of Corsica[33] and the region of Provence in south France,[24] and is also found in scattered and small amounts in Libyan Jews and Egypt, but this is most likely a result of migration from Europe or the Near East.[2]
Among ancient specimens, Loosdrecht et al. (2018) found one E-M78-carrying fossil at the Grotte des Pigeons near Taforalt in eastern Morocco. The skeleton has been directly dated to between 15,100 and 13,900 calibrated years before present.
Haplogroup V
mtDNA V7
The rare V7a subclade occurs among Algerians in Oran (1.08%) and Reguibate Sahrawi (1.85%).[12]
Ancient DNA MtDNA haplogroup V has been reported in Neolithic remains of the Linear Pottery culture at Halberstadt, Germany c. 5000 BC[13] and Derenburg Meerenstieg, Germany c. 4910 BC.[14] Haplogroup V7 was found in representative Maykop culture samples in the excavations conducted by Alexei Rezepkin.[15] Haplogroup V has been detected in representatives Trypil'ska and Unetice culture.[16][17]
Haplogroup V has also been found among Iberomaurusian specimens dating from the Epipaleolithic at the Taforalt prehistoric site 14,000 years BP.
The highest frequencies of E-M123 are observed in Jordan (31% near the Dead Sea), Ethiopia (5-20%), Israel/Palestine (10-12% among the Palestinians and the Jews), among the Bedouins (8%), in Lebanon (5%), in North Africa (3-5%), Anatolia (3-6%) and southern Europe, particularly Italy (1 to 8%), in the Spanish region of Extremadura (4%), and the Balearic islands of Ibiza and Minorca (average 10%).
E-M123 originated some 19,000 years ago, during the last Ice Age Its place of origin is uncertain, but it was probably in the Red Sea region, somewhere between the southern Levant and Ethiopia. Its main subclade E-M34 most probably emerged in the Levant about 15,000 years ago. Soon afterwards, M34 split into two branches, M84 and Z841, which were probably found in the Fertile Crescent during the Neolithic period. It is not clear at present whether they expanded beyond the Near East during the Neolithic period, but they might have been part of the Neolithic expansion to North Africa and Iberia alongside haplogroups T1a and/or R1b-V88.
mtDNA J
mtDNA J1d
J1d and J1b subclades other than J1b1 are found all around the Middle East and the Caucasus and expands towards Mediterranean Europe to the west and Iran to the east. J1d4 has even been found among Indian Brahmins. The distribution of mt-haplogroups J1b and J1d are reminiscent of those of Y-haplogroup J1 and J2 (mtDNA J1d being closer to Y-DNA J2).
Geirmund Heljarskinn was a dark-skinned Viking who settled Iceland.
According to a new book about Geirmund Heljarskinn his mother come from "Bjarmaland" ie what is today northern Russia. The author of the book believes that his mother was from the Nenets people, a people with Asian features. In the Viking time they used the word "black" in different ways than today. Everyone with a dark complexion, or even black hair could be called black (svartur).
So most probably Geirmund was a man with somewhat Asian features, black hair, brown eyes and a darker complexion than most Norse people in his time.
The new book is called "The Black Viking" and is written by Bergsveinn Birgisson.
Nenets people from Northern Russia
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posted
They could've been the original saami who looked differently than the people today called saami.
Posts: 1123 | From: New York | Registered: Feb 2016
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Geirmund Heljarskinn was a dark-skinned Viking who settled Iceland.
According to a new book about Geirmund Heljarskinn his mother come from "Bjarmaland" ie what is today northern Russia. The author of the book believes that his mother was from the Nenets people, a people with Asian features. In the Viking time they used the word "black" in different ways than today. Everyone with a dark complexion, or even black hair could be called black (svartur).
So most probably Geirmund was a man with somewhat Asian features, black hair, brown eyes and a darker complexion than most Norse people in his time.
The new book is called "The Black Viking" and is written by Bergsveinn Birgisson.
Nenets people from Northern Russia
What you claim here genetically doesn't make sense.
With you being from Sweden. Can you confirm this Hastein's voyage to the Mediterranean (859-862AD) is true?
quote:A great host of captives? A note on Vikings in Morocco and Africans in early medieval Ireland & Britain
The following short note is based on a narrative preserved in the eleventh-century Fragmentary Annals of Ireland that tells of a Viking raid on Morocco in the 860s. This raid is said to have led to the taking of 'a great host' of North African captives by the Vikings, who then carried them back to Ireland, where they reportedly remained a distinct group—'the black men'—for some considerable period of time after their arrival. The narrative in question runs as follows:
What you claim here genetically doesn't make sense.
If you look at the circular Viking genomics chart I posted, lower grey portion is YDNA N1a1. Specifically N1a1a1a1a1a-CTS2929/VL29 according to that Viking study
N1a1a1a1a1a-CTS2929/VL29 is Found with high frequency among Nenets, Swedish Saami, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, northwestern Russians, Karelians, Finns, and Maris, moderate frequency among other Russians, Belarusians, Ukrainians, and Poles, and low frequency among Komis, Mordva, Tatars, Chuvashes, Dolgans, Vepsa, Selkups, Karanogays, and Bashkirs
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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What you claim here genetically doesn't make sense.
If you look at the circular Viking genomics chart I posted, lower grey portion is YDNA N1a1. Specifically N1a1a1a1a1a-CTS2929/VL29 according to that Viking study
N1a1a1a1a1a-CTS2929/VL29 is Found with high frequency among Nenets, Swedish Saami, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, northwestern Russians, Karelians, Finns, and Maris, moderate frequency among other Russians, Belarusians, Ukrainians, and Poles, and low frequency among Komis, Mordva, Tatars, Chuvashes, Dolgans, Vepsa, Selkups, Karanogays, and Bashkirs
Obviously I am not speaking of this, but of the other genetic sequences. duh lol smh
Btw, these groups aren't known for, being taken or mistaken for Black.
They once again used the African (YRI) plot for comparison?
quote:Modern References
We used fs2.0.8 (www.paintmychromosomes.com) using the protocol described with the software235 to paint 1675 modern individuals primarily from across Europe (UK, Italy, Poland, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway, as well as China and Africa) who together form the “modern sample”. FineSTRUCTURE identified 40 populations which after removal of small populations and merging of the Chinese (CHB) and African (YRI) sub-populations created 23 modern populations consisting of the 1554 unrelated individuals who could be associated with a modern population label. These together will form the “modern reference panel”. Painting against this “Modern Population Palette” is done by simply summing the contribution from each individual in each donor population.
[...]
Principal Components Analysis of Painting
Whilst PC1 describes similarity with Africa for high values, PC2 describes Finnish ancestry, PC3 variation within Finnish ancestry, PC4 describes Norwegian ancestry and PC5 describes variation within Norway at one end of its range. PC8 describes the first batch effect between modern and ancient samples; that it is a relatively small effect compared to the population structure is additional information that the imputation procedure has not biased the inference.
What you claim here genetically doesn't make sense.
If you look at the circular Viking genomics chart I posted, lower grey portion is YDNA N1a1. Specifically N1a1a1a1a1a-CTS2929/VL29 according to that Viking study
N1a1a1a1a1a-CTS2929/VL29 is Found with high frequency among Nenets, Swedish Saami, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, northwestern Russians, Karelians, Finns, and Maris, moderate frequency among other Russians, Belarusians, Ukrainians, and Poles, and low frequency among Komis, Mordva, Tatars, Chuvashes, Dolgans, Vepsa, Selkups, Karanogays, and Bashkirs
Obviously I am not speaking of this, but of the other genetic sequences. duh lol smh
Btw, these groups aren't known for, being taken or mistaken for Black.
They once again used the African (YRI) plot for comparison?
It was suggested that Geirmund Heljarskinn might be Nenet and you said that doesn't make sense genetically but it does makes as a genetic possibility. So stop with the "duh lol smh"
Today in Western countries there are a lot more Africans then there were in 18th century and earlier. This is because of slaves brought by the Europeans and Americans and modern immigrations.
You can't go by the term "black" as used today in post-slavery in the Western countries with a heavy connotation of Africaness and think it was the same in the 18th century and earlier.
Today people of African ancestry in Scandinavia are under 1%. A couple of hundred years ago much lower than that
In the 18th century and earlier in Europe the term "black" could mean anybody from a white European with a slight tint to an African with dark skin.
Today in America nobody calls East Indian people, some who are dark as black people, nobody calls them black in general conversation. Some people might say they are black if asked but "black" in America has a heavy implication of African decent and it would be highly unlikely for a dark skinned Asian to check off "black" on the U.S. census even though it allows you to select more than one category
In pre-African slavery in European or in the early period "black" was used much more loosely. So it makes no sense to assume that "black" used in 9th century Scandinavia would have a heavy connotation of somebody exclusively of African descent and the term "the black" may not even have anything to do with skin color or ethnicity
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Explain why these aforementioned groups have stopped claiming to be Black? When did this happen? Before precolonial times they used to describe the Moor as being a Black person. The word Moor is in several languages and it always means the same. So why is it they no longer use it for themselves as a reference, but only used it for the people they deported into the new world? As we know, the n-word derived from a people described as Moors. And these people lived in Africa and the what is now called the Middle East. You've tried to use a false narrative for years, and it's going to end here.
Dr Anna French from the University of Gloucestershire talks to Dr Miranda Kaufmann about her research on Africans in Britain in the early modern period, and its significance for teaching black history.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: [QB] Explain why these aforementioned groups have stopped claiming to be Black? When did this happen? Before precolonial times they used to describe the Moor as being a Black person.
"Black" as a group is a new thing.
In Europe prior to the slave trade "black" might be used to describe a person's demeanor, complexion or skin color but not as a racial group of "blacks" as is used today
This doesn't mean there were no Africans in Europe at the time. It means this man an other white Europeans were described as "black" before this term came to be used a racial term. -and an African could be described as black also
So the definition was broader back then and not a racial category. It was used loosely and inconsistently at the time.
There are several nobles such as the man above described as black in this book at the same time you can look at officerly commissioned portrait paintings of them and they don't look African at all, they look like typical Europeans, perhaps not the palest ones
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: Explain why these aforementioned groups have stopped claiming to be Black? When did this happen? Before precolonial times they used to describe the Moor as being a Black person.
"Black" as a group is a new thing.
In Europe prior to the slave trade "black" might be used to describe a person's demeanor, complexion or skin color but not as a racial group of "blacks" as is used today
blah blah blah
quote:At a young age, Gustav Badin (1750-1822, named Couschi at birth), was kidnapped, taken to Sweden and presented to Queen Louisa Ulrika of Prussia in 1757. Intrigued by the teachings of Rousseau, Louisa set out to teach Gustav how to read and write, and about Christianity and etiquette, as an experiment to see if a "morian" (Swedish for Moor) could be "civil."
posted
You can start a new topic about Elizabeth I but this topic is about Vikings, late 8th to the late 11th centuries
-lioness
[ 12. July 2021, 02:52 AM: Message edited by: the lioness, ]
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: [ At a young age, Gustav Badin (1750-1822, named Couschi at birth), was kidnapped, taken to Sweden and presented to Queen Louisa Ulrika of Prussia in 1757. Intrigued by the teachings of Rousseau, Louisa set out to teach Gustav how to read and write, and about Christianity and etiquette, as an experiment to see if a "morian" (Swedish for Moor) could be "civil."
Badin was born either in Africa or in the Danish island Saint Croix. He himself said that the only thing he remembered about his past was his parents' hut burning, but it is not known whether this happened in Africa or in Saint Croix. It is known that he lived in Saint Croix during his childhood.
He was taken to Europe, probably on a Danish East Indies ship, from where he was bought by a Danish captain, who gave him to statesman Anders von Resier, who, in turn, gave him as a present to the Queen of Sweden, Louisa Ulrika of Prussia, in 1757.
Dutch and English settlers landed at Saint Croix in 1625 The 1742 census of Saint Croix lists 120 sugar plantations, 122 cotton plantations, and 1906 slaves, compared to 360 whites on the island. By 1754, the number of slaves had grown to 7,566. That year, King Frederick took direct control of Saint Croix from the company.
For nearly 200 years, Saint Croix, St. Thomas and St. John were known as the Danish West Indies.
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So this man come from 17th-18th century Danish slave trading
but the topic is Vikings in the 9th century
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Off topic this is about Vikings, late 8th to the late 11th centuries
[ 12. July 2021, 02:49 AM: Message edited by: the lioness, ]
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Geirmund Heljarskinn was a dark-skinned Viking who settled Iceland.
According to a new book about Geirmund Heljarskinn his mother come from "Bjarmaland" ie what is today northern Russia. The author of the book believes that his mother was from the Nenets people, a people with Asian features. In the Viking time they used the word "black" in different ways than today. Everyone with a dark complexion, or even black hair could be called black (svartur).
So most probably Geirmund was a man with somewhat Asian features, black hair, brown eyes and a darker complexion than most Norse people in his time.
The new book is called "The Black Viking" and is written by Bergsveinn Birgisson.
Nenets people from Northern Russia
Can you explain how far back the word morian date back in Swedish?
"The Viking raid on Išbīliya, then part of the Umayyad Emirate of Córdoba, took place in 844. After raiding the coasts of what is now Spain and Portugal, a Viking fleet arrived in Išbīliya (nowadays Seville) through the Guadalquivir on 25 September, and took the city on 1 or 3 October. The Vikings pillaged the city and the surrounding areas. Emir Abd ar-Rahman II of Córdoba mobilized and sent a large force against the Vikings under the command of the hajib (chief-minister) Isa ibn Shuhayd. After a series of indecisive engagements, the Muslim army defeated the Vikings on either 11 or 17 November. Seville was retaken, and the remnants of the Vikings fled Spain. After the raid, the Muslims raised new troops and built more ships and other military equipment to protect the coast. The quick military response in 844 and the subsequent defensive improvements discouraged further attacks by the Vikings.[2]"
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Ish Geber:
At a young age, Gustav Badin (1750-
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Off topic this is about Vikings, late 8th to the late 11th centuries
Coward! Scared you get defeated! Meanwhile you leave up your crap about so called Blackness during classical times. lol That's weak and the lowest denominator.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: "Vikings raided North Africa in 861AD, taking slaves back to the north. The slaves become known as blue men, in reference to their dark skins."
~Julia Golding, Wolf Cry
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
At a young age, Gustav Badin (1750-1822, named Couschi at birth), was kidnapped, taken to Sweden
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
you get defeated!
I have to admit it, you won this one I've been defeated
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: This time it is not me, xyyman, saying it. From their own mouths. Remember my thread "Not even the Vikings were White”?. I guess they read my thread. Lol! Hollywood did a number on us. Ha! Ha! Reminds me of the Rocky statue in Philly – Some whites now believe he was real. Lol!
In the popular imagination, Vikings were fearsome blonde-haired warriors from Scandinavia who used longboats to carry out raids across Europe in a brief but bloody reign of terror. But the reality is much more complex, according to an analysis of the genomes of 442 ancient humans from archaeological sites in Scandinavia, the United Kingdom, Ireland, Iceland, Greenland, Estonia, Ukraine, Poland and other Eastern European countries.
........
So the Vikings were Southern Europeans ie may be North Africans. You know how they do they stop at Sardinia and refuse to sample North Africa when all logical scenario suggest North Africa is a better sample point.
Like the Abusir/Ancient Egypt study, this Viking paper was misrepresented and misconstrued in several scientific articles with lurid headlines. And one of the authors who was involved in this paper tried to set the record straight because he was frustrated at the pseudos who made the study say what they wanted to say. With that being said, even the journalists who are often clueless about DNA and suck in understanding genetic studies didn't claim that the Vikings were not white. They were rather trying to exaggerate and overblown the "exoticness" of those who joined the Vikings in their raids. Therefore, stop mispresenting things as if the headlines weren't misleading enough. Matter of fact, some Southern Europeans/ part Southern European and Sami admixed individuals joined the Vikings in their raids. However, even when going by the very same paper and reading it in depth the Scandinavian Vikings as such were not swarthy at all but phenotypically and genetically basically like modern Danes, hence typically light-haired, pale folks with blue eyes. It's crazy that the minor "exotic" element among the Vikings(Southern European/Sami like folks) were mentioned but the bulk and the vast majority of the Non-Scandinavian Vikings who were German, Celtic, Baltic, or Slavic people, thus other Northern or Northern-east Europeans have not been reported in all of these articles for the obvious reasons. Not sensationalist enough and too boring for clickbait. Controversy sells, baby. So the articles about this Viking study were lying by omission. The truth is much closer to what people have known for centuries about Vikings than what these articles suggest. Anyway, the Vikings were diverse but in a Northern European context. These Southern Europeans who joined the Vikings on their raids had brown hair and eyes, which is usual for Meds. The misleading and misconstruing of the data started with pretending that Vikings as such typically looked like Southern Europeans or part Asian. This was definitely not the case. There is a general trend in the academic world to overestimate diversity among the ancient populations and to over-focus on outliers, unexpected or unusual findings. By the way, the Southern European Vikings had a Northern Italian or French-like profile as far as I know, and there was nothing Northern African about them. In fact, if these authors would've found any hint of a Northern African-like component, they would've gladly jumped on it and the media headlines would sound like that: A genetic Study found evidence for the first African Viking....
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: Not having "blonde hair" doesn't mean one is not "white". One can still white with brown hair.
Secondly, what is meant by "influenced by genetic influx from the outside of Scandinavia"?
You're right, even the misleading media didn't deny the "whiteness" of the Vikings as xyyman falsley claims, but the journalists rather wanted to make the gullible public believe that the Vikings overall were white folks, but rather Mediterranean than Nordic folks, which wasn't the case. Surely, not all Vikings were 100% platinum blond, but they were usually Nordic, with light eyes, and light-colored hair like modern Scandinavians. The truth of the matter, the very same paper has suggested based on their data that the local Scandinavian Vikings resembled very much modern Scandinavians. However, this part didn't make it in the news. Plus the fact, that the very same study revealed that the vast majority of the Non-Scandanivan Vikings were Baltic/Finnish, Celtic, Slaves or Germans wasn't reported in the differentent articles either, only the Southern European-like and Sami admixed folks were highlighted and reported about.
It's logical that the Vikings that were not Scandinavians, but Southern Europeans, didn't resemble the Scandinavian Vikings. Thus they weren't representative in the first place. The media took these Southern European outliers for pretending as if they somehow would represent the Vikings proper, which wasn't the case. Bottom line the true Viking warriors were basically identical to modern Danes. Yet the study is framed in a way to make people believe that the Vikings in general were and looked different from present-day Scandinavians, which is not true.
Anyway, here is another paper that concluded the opposite of the misleading scientific articles concerning the Vikings's physical appearance. DNA research shows that many of the Vikings of Denmark had red hair, while the Vikings of Northern Scandinavia had blonde hair:
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: They could've been the original saami who looked differently than the people today called saami.
Exactly. Original Saami people were black.
Encyclopædia Britannica 1824 describes Laplanders (saami) having swarthy (black or brown) skin:
The British Quarterly Review from 1845 says that Laplanders (Saami) are dark-complexioned.
Norwegians, Swedes and Finlanders have interacted with Samis for centuries, thus already Othere in the 800s talks about his travels to Kola peninsula, the White Sea and beyond.
Sami people have been depicted at least since Olaus Magnus Historia de gentibus septentrionalibus from 1555, even if his depictions are to be taken with a grain of salt. In the 1600 Johannes Schefferus published a richly illustrated book called Lapponia which describes the Sami people and their lands. In the 1700s Carl von Linné met and described Sami people during his travel to Lapland. He desribed one thing that he found a bit peculiar, eventhough the face and hands seemed brown the rest of their bodies, who were not exposed to sun or smoke, were very white.
During the 1700s Samis were also depicted by among others Per Hilleström.
In the 1800s we have both paintings and photos. Common motifs in the depictions and descriptions are the reindeer, the sleighs (ackja) and other ethnographic details. Swarthiness or blackness are not held up as something typical, on the contrary, most paintings from Olaus Magnus until the 1900s show Samis as light skinned, not at all black. Also in the majority of old photos they are not black but rather light. Some are heavily tanned though, and in many photos, due to the photo technique at that time they appear darker than they really were.
Sami hunters as depicted in Olaus Magus Historia de gentibus septentrionalibus
Samis in the 1600s, from Laponia
Tax collection among Samis, early 1700s
Sami people in the 1700s, painting by Pehr Hilleström.
Sami people from Norway, engraving from the 1800s
Sami in Norway 1882
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That doesn't explained why Anders Andersen looks different from other Sami's that can be found on the net.
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Gunnar Black Wolf, son of a Viking lord and a Moorish slave, grows up as one of the chosen of Odin and the companion of prince Harald Finehair. He returns home from fun and free-booting to find his adoptive parents, wife, and child dead, and vows vengeance against their slayer. In the course of this quest, he becomes outlawed and is driven to lead a mighty raid against the Franks.
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There are always outliers, people who look different. One can not say that the Sami people were black based on one person with curly hair and maybe a bit ambiguous facial features.
If one look at the Roland Bonapartes collection where the picture comes from the other Samis in there look more "typical" Sami.
Like this man, he looks much like Samis both in old times and today.
posted
The book mentioned earlier, "The Black Viking" by Bergsveinn Birgisson also mentions an eventual connection to Asia through the MtDNA haplogroup Z1a which according to him is found also on Iceland. He searched among others among his own relatives. He also claims that he is related to Geirmund Heljarskinn.
Another unusual haplogroup on Iceland is MtDNA C1e. It has been speculated that it came to Iceland through a Native American woman, brought back by vikings, but it can also come from Asia or Europe.
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According to "The National encyclopedia" the word "Morian" goes back at least to the 1500s. An older designation was "blámaðr" (blue man) which one can read in the old Icelandic sagas.
The word "Neger" (negro) we have from 1680 in the Swedish language.
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No more talk of Sami here please, there's a new thread for it, including a link to 67 old portrait photos and DNA studies, mitochondrial and YDNA
Already among Eastern and Scandinavian hunter gatherers in the mesolithic we have genes that are connected with light skin and hair. We also have western hunter gatherers who is said to have had darker skin and blue eyes.
Round 4000 BC there is an influx of farmers who also have a disposition for light skin. They are followed in about 2800 by people with their roots in eastern steppe cultures. They also have genes connected with light skin.
About 1700 BC the Nordic bronze age starts in Southern Scandinavia. From well preserved bodies in Danish tumulus graves we have human remains with blonde hair.
We have also several bog bodies from the early Iron age (from 500 BC and forward).
When it concerns people of the Viking age we have pictorial representations from Scandinavia. We also have pictorial evidence from France and England of Normands (where the leading elite were descended from Scandinavians) and also Anglo Saxons, among other on the famous Bayeux tapestry from the 11th century.
Geirmund Heljarskinn was a dark-skinned Viking who settled Iceland.
Your picture depicts a fictive person (M'Baku, in the comic books sometimes referred to as Man Ape) in the fictive country of Wakanda, which is located in Africa. The actor playing the role (in the movie Black Panther) is the Trinidad-American actor Winston Duke.
So the picture has nothing to do with viking age Scandinavia or Iceland.
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If we go back to the earliest Scandinavians there seem to have been some kind of blend between the Western hunter gatherers and the Eastern hunter gatherers. The mix gave rise to the group called Scandinavian hunter gatherers. The groups are thought to have had different skin colors. Artist Tom Björklund has made a rather cute illustration of how WHG and EHG met and learned to know each other.
Here is his own words about the painting
quote: Mesolithic mix
When the last Ice Age ended, Fennoscandia really was a Terra nullius, an uninhabited barren landscape, empty and lifeless – except for some Norway lemmings (the only endemic vertebrates in the region) which had survived on nunataks along the Norwegian coast.
But soon, following the retreating ice, came the first humans from two directions representing populations quite distinctive from each other, the old European hunter-gatherers from the south and others from the north-east, the process resulting in a rather interesting cocktail of cultural and genetic heritage.
The illustration may be a bit exaggerated in order to emphasize the point, I don't know exactly how dark or light people were in respective groups and if there were individuals with blond hair at all at this point or if it is a post Mesolithic trait. Anyway, we don't have much left in us of those ancient ancestors, two additional waves of migrations washed away most of it.
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When Tom Björklund made his interpretation of the 5700 years old girl Lola, whose existence is solely known through her DNA which was extracted from a chewing gum made of birch tar, he got scolded from two directions. Some people thought he white washed her and that she should have been depicted as darker. Others thought that he black painted her and that she should have been depicted as more light skinned. Not easy to make everyone happy
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When concerning African or Black people in Viking age Scandinavia (and Iceland) we have just a very few mentionings of "Blamadr" (blue men) in the early medieval Nordic literature. One such story tells about a Blamadr at the court of Harald Fairhair (c 850 - 933). The poor man was kept in a cage and forced to fight other men. There are no reports of any Viking jarls or kings of African descent.
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This is the reason why I question exactly how dark these reconstructions and representations were suppose to be. The genomic data would say dark skin, but would not specify exactly how dark. As an example, the genome of a Paleo-Eskimo was analyzed some years back and revealed he had dark skin. Now does that mean he was black??
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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The methods to determine skin color from genes seems still a bit rough or inexact. Thus for example in a study I once read they compared real skin tones among the Karitiana with results from HIrisplex-S. They were designated as dark/Black. Still there are many peoples who are considerably darker. So dark or black covers obviously several skin tones.
Here is a Karitiana couple and as comparison a Jarawa child from the Andaman islands. Still a genetic test seems to show them both as dark to black. Hopefully though these systems may be able to discern more nuances in the future.
Even Clyde notises that the Dark to Black category do not cover many nuances. He calls it racist.
quote:The color categories are obviously racist. In the illustration we find 12 different colors for Eurasians and color associated with Blacks. This analysis is racist because there is not just one skin color for Blacks.
The Proof-of-principle illustration makes it clear that this test is just another way to promote White Supremacy. The idea that Africans possess only one color while Eurasians have 12 different colors is obviously Racist.
you had people especially Afronuts thinking that Europeans were all 'black' until the Neolithic when they all of a sudden became pale. As if there was no medium hue especially for a people residing in Ice Age Europe to have the same complexion as an equatorial African makes no sense.
This is why when they say the 9,000 BC Cheddar Man of Britain had dark skin, are we to think he was as dark as this?
Meanwhile even though his totally fossilized skull had no viable DNA to test, the 30,000 BC Nubian Nazlet Khater Man looked like this?!
LOL It's a topsy-turvy upside-down world indeed.
So now that we have white Nubians and black Vikings, I'm still waiting for the white Mandingos and black Cossacks.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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In an upcoming documentary TV series named "The Story of Sweden" they envision both Western Hunter Gatherers (WHG), Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers (SHG) and people from the Neolithic. In one scene a man who is visibly of African descent play one of the WHG men.
This has led to some comments pointing out that the early hunter gatherers in Scandinavia did not resemble Subsaharan Africans in their facial morphology but rather looked more like modern Europeans.
Here it is explained on a museum website from Denmark.
quote:Lola has only her skin colour in common with the past and present inhabitants of sub-Saharan Africa. Even though archaeologists have not found any of her bones, not even her skull, many other Mesolithic skulls have been found in Denmark over the years. Physical anthropologists, scientists who study prehistoric skeletons, all agree that Mesolithic people in Denmark had European features, albeit with very robust muscular attachments and a broader jaw than we have today. So, they were very similar to us, apart from their skin pigment, hair colour and a broader jaw.
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