posted
Thabraca, tomb portrait mosaic of Natalica, Vth century A.D., Bardo museum, Tunis :
Victor the Moor, Moorish martyr who lived during the third century A.D., Here mosaic made during the IVth century A.D. from one of the chapel of the basilica Sant'Ambrogio in Milan :
Bust of a young berber from Volubilis, IIth-IIIth century A.D., Museum of Rabat :
Heads of dignitaries, Kerkouane, Tunisia, 3rd century B.C. :
Marble head of a man with a beard From Volubilis, 2nd century B.C., Museum of Rabat :
Mortuary mask of a man from el jem, Tunisia, IIId century A.D. :
Statue of Crepereia Innula from Ammaedara, Tunisia, white marble, 150-175 A.D. :
Property of a farm manager from Thabraca, IVth century A.D., Bardo Museum :
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
| IP: Logged |
posted
Bust of Massinissa, king of Numidia, preserved in the Hall of the Philosophers at the Capitoline Museum, Rome - Date of Photo 1890 ca. - Date of Artwork II sec. a.C. - Location Rome - :
Bust of the Emperor Septimius Severus, 196-200 A.D. :
Statue of the numidian king Syphax, Vatican Museum :
Bust of the moorish king Juba I, Louvre Museum :
Bust of the moorish king Juba II (25 B.C. - 23 A.D.) :
some coins depicting him :
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
| IP: Logged |
posted
Drusilla, princess of Mauretania. This head is either Drusilla the elder or the younger.
Drusilla the elder (born about 8 BC) was daughter to Cleopatra Selene (daughter to Cleopatra VII) and king Juba II.
Drusilla the younger (38-79 AD) was daughter to Ptolemaios of Mauretania and his wife Julia Urania. Ptolemaios was son to Juba II and Kleopatra Selene.
posted
Bust of Ptolemy of Mauretania in the Vatican Museums (Museo Chiaramonti). Ptolemy was brother to Drusilla the elder and father to Drusilla the younger.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2683 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
| IP: Logged |
posted
@Archeopteryx I didn't post him because his mother was Cleopatra Selene II therefore making him only half north african while drusilla would logically be around 75% north african
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: @Archeopteryx I didn't post him because his mother was Cleopatra Selene II therefore making him only half north african while drusilla would logically be around 75% north african
Dude, your own source contradicts you:
quote: The elder Drusilla was the youngest child of queen Cleopatra Selene (II) and king Juba II and a sister to king Ptolemy of Mauretania. Cleopatra of Mauretania could have been her possible elder sister. Her father Juba II of Numidia, was an only son to king Juba I of Numidia (a king of Numidia of Berber descent from North Africa, who was an ally to Roman General Pompey the Great). Her mother Cleopatra Selene (II) was an only daughter to Ptolemaic Greek queen Cleopatra VII of Egypt from her marriage to Roman Triumvir Mark Antony. Drusilla was of Berber, Greek and Roman ancestry.
The younger Drusilla was a daughter and only child of king Ptolemy of Mauretania and queen Julia Urania. Drusilla was most probably born in Caesaria, the capital of the Kingdom of Mauretania (modern Cherchell, Algeria) in the Roman Empire. She was born about 38 AD and was probably named in honor of Roman Emperor Caligula’s sister Julia Drusilla, who died at that time.
Drusilla is of Berber, Greek, Roman and possibly Aramaic (Syrian) ancestry. Her paternal grandparents were queen Cleopatra Selene (II) and king Juba II of Mauretania. Her great grandparents, were Greek Ptolemaic queen Cleopatra VII of Egypt, Roman Triumvir Mark Antony and African king Juba I of Numidia.
Her father was executed in Rome in 40 AD. Mauretania was annexed by Rome and later became two Roman provinces. Drusilla was probably raised in the Imperial family in Rome. Around 53 AD, the Roman Emperor Claudius, arranged her to marry former Greek freeman and Roman Governor of Judea Antonius Felix. Between 54 AD - 56 AD, Felix divorced her to marry a Judean princess.
Drusilla married king Sohaemus of Emesa. They had at least two children, a son Gaius Julius Alexio (a future king of Emesa) and a daughter Iotapi (an ancestor to queen of Palmyra, Zenobia). For more information, about the Emesan Royal Family, see article Royal Family of Emesa.
These people were assimilated into Roman culture and not promoting any sort of "berber" identity.
Your own sources are saying there was a lot of mixture in the Roman era.
quote: Antalas was a Berber tribal leader who played a major role in the wars of the Byzantine Empire against the Berber tribes in Africa. Antalas and his tribe, the Frexenses of Byzacena who are today called "Frechich" in Tunisia, initially served the Byzantines as allies, but after 544 switched sides. With the final Byzantine victory in 548, Antalas and his Christian tribe once again became Byzantine subjects. The main sources on his life are the epic poem Iohannis of Flavius Cresconius Corippus and the Histories of the Wars of Procopius of Caesarea.
quote: The Vandal Kingdom or Kingdom of the Vandals and Alans was established by the Germanic Vandal people under Gaiseric. It ruled in North Africa and the Mediterranean from 435 to 534 AD.
In 429 AD, the Vandals, estimated to number 80,000 people, had crossed by boat from Hispania to North Africa. They advanced eastward, conquering the coastal regions of what is now Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia. In 435, the Roman Empire, then ruling North Africa, allowed the Vandals to settle in the provinces of Numidia and Mauretania when it became clear that the Vandal army could not be defeated by Roman military forces. In 439 the Vandals renewed their advance eastward and captured Carthage, the most important city of North Africa. The fledgling kingdom then conquered the Roman-ruled islands of Mallorca, Sicily, Sardinia, and Corsica in the western Mediterranean. In the 460s, the Romans launched two unsuccessful military expeditions by sea in an attempt to overthrow the Vandals and reclaim North Africa. The conquest of North Africa by the Vandals was a blow to the beleaguered Western Roman Empire as North Africa was a major source of revenue and a supplier of grain (mostly wheat) to the city of Rome.
Although primarily remembered for the sack of Rome in 455 and their persecution of Nicene Christians in favor of Arian Christianity, the Vandals were also patrons of learning. Grand building projects continued, schools flourished, and North Africa fostered many of the most innovative writers and natural scientists of the late Latin-speaking Western Roman Empire.
The Vandal Kingdom ended in 534, when it was conquered by Belisarius in the Vandalic War and incorporated into the Eastern Roman Empire (or Byzantine Empire). The surviving Vandals either assimilated into the indigenous African population or were dispersed among the Byzantine territories.
Of course the "north Africans" have been resisting these invaders all along going back even to Carthage itself but they ultimately failed to stop Rome from conquering and many joined the Romans.
Just for context, the regions in question are North of Cairo in Egypt.
yes berber fought each other, vandals didn't mix with locals since they were arians while locals were catholics and they only lived around Carthage, and I don't see why you equate one princess marrying a foreigner to be "lot of mixture in the roman era".
If you want to play this game no problem :
About Vandals :
quote:In the sources, there is no indication of a promotion to "Germanness", whereas in the Roman Empire, every peregrine had the vocation to become a citizen. Moreover, religious hostility prohibited mixed marriages, so that one can say that two peoples coexisted in the kingdom. [Some authors, such as F. Martroye, assert that the Vandal kings were hostile to mixed marriages for fear of seeing the discipline of their warriors dissolve in the Africitas. One is all the more justified to doubt the homogeneity of the society - it was limited in fact to the fusion between Vandals and Alains - that it is difficult to believe in a "collaboration of class", insofar as the aristocracy, evicted and despoiled, kept resentment to the Vandals even if some of its members had escaped the exile. Even those who had "collaborated" loyally with the Vandals, such as the proconsul of Carthage Victorianus, whose devotion to the king is remembered, were finally eliminated for religious reasons.
Jean-Marie Lassère, Africa quasi Roma, pp. 671
quote:The only surviving estimate, however unreliable it may be, places the number of Vandals – ‘old, young, children, slaves and masters’, ‘even he whom the belly of the womb poured forth into this [world’s] light that very day’ – at 80,000 at the time of their passage from Spain into Mauretania in 429. This would have represented only a fraction of the population of Carthage, let alone the rest of Roman Africa."
Jonathan Conant, Staying Roman - Conquest and Identity in Africa and the Mediterranean, p. 19-20
They were defeated by Byzantines in 533 and expelled from Africa ( the last king Gelimer was sent to Galatia, his soldiers were enslaved and the elite of it was transferred in the East : one part incorporated into the imperial guard in Constantinople and the rest formed five units of cavalry called "Vandali Iustiniani" and were installed along the shores of the Euphrates)
Now for those who stayed especially women this is what happened :
quote: On the battlefield of Tricamarum, many of them had fallen to the power of the soldiers: these remained the slaves of their new masters. By virtue of the same law of war, the women and girls taken in the supreme struggle were attributed to the victor and most of them married Byzantine soldiers
Charles Diehl, L'Afrique Byzantine Histoire de la domination byzantine en Afrique (533-709), p. 37
quote:The Byzantine military authorities were initially willing to let rank-and-file soldiers keep the Vandal women and children that they had enslaved in the wake of their military victories and, as we have seen, even to force their female captives into coerced marriages.10 Vandal fighting men, on the other hand, were disarmed, sent under guard to Carthage, and eventually deported to Constantinople before being sent to fight for the emperor along the Persian frontier."
Jonathan Conant, Staying Roman - Conquest and Identity in Africa and the Mediterranean, p.255
Now as for Romans :
quote:It has thus been argued that soldiers were likely to have found partners among local,non-Roman women; their children, then, would be good candidates for a pool of people among whom a hybrid ethnic identity might emerge. Examples might include Carteia in Spain and Lugdunum Convenarum in France, both said to be populated by children of Roman soldiers and local women (Woolf 2011: 18). However, in the case of North Africa, such evidence as we have for such relationships—typically commemorative epitaphs—shows virtually no such mixing; in fact, the chief pool of women to whom soldiers had recourse were the daughters of their comrades or predecessors (Cherry 1998: 101–40)."
Jeremy Mcinerney, Ethnicity in the ancient mediterranean, pp. 120
quote:In fact, if we seek to determine the numerical importance of the contingent of Roman or Italian immigrants in Africa, we have every reason to admit that it was small: and it does not grow much even if we add the non-Italian immigrants. These immigrants include senior civil servants, but the junior staff of the offices are recruited locally; a few large landowners, but most often they reside in Rome and are represented in Africa by stewards and farmers, many of local origin; a few Italian, Oriental or Spanish merchants in the cities of the coast and in a few large localities in the interior such as Cirta. These are contributions that do not change the Berber character [...] "In sum, the army brought into Africa, in the first century, a certain number of men from the other provinces of the Empire. But the proportion of this non-African element became weaker and weaker until, around 150, it was practically zero. It was Africans who kept order in Africa, on behalf of Rome. "
L'afrique romaine de Louis Leschi
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
| IP: Logged |
posted
Eastern Libyans as depicted by ancient egyptians :
faience_tile of a Libyan_chief during the time of Ramesses III :
In another painting (Fig. 49) a Libyan (Rebu) chief is shown, followed by a sword- bearer, an archer, and a tribesman who bears no arms (from the book of Oric bates) :
Collection of Libyan types from the egyptian monuments (from the book of Oric bates on the eastern libyans) :
Stick with a libyan prisoner (I think from tutankhamun's tomb) :
4 libyan chiefs of the Temehu confederation depicted in the Tomb of Seti I (19th dynasty) :
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
| IP: Logged |
posted
Interesting, however you did not mention the Melano Gaetuli.
quote:"We strongly believe that Ptolemy’s Talubath corresponds to the modern oasis of Tabelbala. According to Jean-Pierre Rossie [16], its inhabitants speak a language of their own, completely different from the languages of the surrounding nomadic or settled Saharan populations. Their language is of Black African origin but influenced by Amazigh and Arabic languages. Indeed, Ptolemy calls a nearby tribe “Melanogaetuli”. The Greek word “melanos” means “black”.
(Ptolemy’s West Africa Reconstructed, Lyudmila M. Filatova, Dmitri A. Gusev1 and Sergey K. Stafeyev)
Some similarity in features but hair quite different (assuming the hair on the sculpture is accurate)
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Coming to terms with what was previously mocked?
quote:Originally posted October 10, 2011 by alTakruri:
Juba II madness
_______ Juba II Numidian African ____________ Typical Euro-Roman
The Numidian differs from the European in all the stereotypical hair and facial features.
* The hair is thicker and "wilder." * The eye is larger and rounder. * The cheek bones are higher and more protruding. * The nose is flatter and broader with * nostrils tending to round/oval rather than oblong/slit shape. *The lips are thicker and more everted.
Some similarity in features but hair quite different (assuming the hair on the sculpture is accurate)
Amazing you found this info on him. We can't expect to find someone 100% similar. But we know the combination of traits is within this ethnic group and that's the point I was trying to make.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
from the side photos of the very same sculpture cannot inform of the nose wideness So if you look at the profile photo of the same sculpture it gives the illusion he is much closer to a typical Roman and this is what would happen with a coin also. Was this artist ever in the physical presence of Juba II? It is not known but whatever the case may be the artist seems to intend to depict a type that is outside of the typical Greco-Roman and does resemble that Tuareg boy This photo virtually a front view and without the heavier shadow is a bit shocking how wide the nose actually is
Most of the Numidian/Mauretania king coins look like Romans. The thing with this one, Juba II's father, Juba I is that it looks peculiar, that hair on a classical featured face It seems kind of suspicious, like Elizabeth Daynes had gone down there in a time machine
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
Mohammed esh Sheikh es Seghir was the sultan of Morocco from 1636 to 1655.
He was a son of sultan Zidan al-Nasir (r. 1603–1627). His mother was a Spanish slave and he had two Spanish wives.
Zidan Abu Maali (? – September 1627) was the embattled Saadi Sultan of Morocco from 1603 to 1627. He was the son of Ahmad al-Mansur and his wife of the Chebanate tribe (also called Souk el Had village in the Moroccan province of Sidi Kacem)
Mohammed esh-Sheikh es-Seghir tried to concentrate the entire Moroccan foreign trade in Safi at the hands of the English, and to obtain warships from their king to prevent all trade with the south, but the Sultan was afraid of breaking relations with the Dutch and the French.[2] In 1638, the Sultan sent his ambassador Muhammad bin Askar to England, who was carrying a letter to hasten King Charles I of England to send the required weapons and ammunition to Morocco and to suppress the English merchants who were selling weapons to the rebels, and that was based on the treaty concluded between the two countries on September 20, 1637, which stipulates that no relationship should be established between the Kingdom of England and the Sultan's enemies in Santa Cruz, but English merchants continued to smuggle weapons into the desert.
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
Mohammed esh Sheikh es Seghir was the sultan of Morocco from 1636 to 1655.
He was a son of sultan Zidan al-Nasir (r. 1603–1627). His mother was a Spanish slave and he had two Spanish wives.
Zidan Abu Maali (? – September 1627) was the embattled Saadi Sultan of Morocco from 1603 to 1627. He was the son of Ahmad al-Mansur and his wife of the Chebanate tribe (also called Souk el Had village in the Moroccan province of Sidi Kacem)
Mohammed esh-Sheikh es-Seghir tried to concentrate the entire Moroccan foreign trade in Safi at the hands of the English, and to obtain warships from their king to prevent all trade with the south, but the Sultan was afraid of breaking relations with the Dutch and the French.[2] In 1638, the Sultan sent his ambassador Muhammad bin Askar to England, who was carrying a letter to hasten King Charles I of England to send the required weapons and ammunition to Morocco and to suppress the English merchants who were selling weapons to the rebels, and that was based on the treaty concluded between the two countries on September 20, 1637, which stipulates that no relationship should be established between the Kingdom of England and the Sultan's enemies in Santa Cruz, but English merchants continued to smuggle weapons into the desert. [/QB]
Interesting I didn't know thanks
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
| IP: Logged |
posted
what is your view on the ancestry of these Moroccan sultans as to their typical ancestry considering potential mixtures Arab, Amazigh, other Africans European? What in your opinion was there primary ancestry and also of the current dynasty leading Morocco?
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: what is your view on the ancestry of these Moroccan sultans as to their typical ancestry considering potential mixtures Arab, Amazigh, other Africans European? What in your opinion was there primary ancestry and also of the current dynasty leading Morocco?
Mostly of local origin with some sultans having european or black mothers here and there.
Historically many berbers used to falsify their genealogy in order to legitimate their power over non descendents of the prophet :
quote: More soundly based than Guichard's conclusions are the insightful observations of Glick. As he remarks, "arabization of the Berbers during this period must be carefully qualified", noting that "many Berbers falsified their genealogies, adopting Arab tribal names in order to dissemble their true ethnic identity." This is correct, and no less true of so-called "Arabs" than of Berbers in al-Andalus. Not only were they concerned with hiding their true origins, but also by claiming association with one of the elite tribes of early Islam, a definite social and religious status could be automatically achieved; all a part of the much-discussed "Arabiyya" (arabization) propaganda (tough too few authors have recognized this aspect of the problem). Furthermore, the early muslim chronicles of the conquests (not of al-Andalus, but in general) make it eminently clear that the true Arabs were opposed to travelling beyond the boundaries of their homeland, and had little interest in settling such far-away places as Iraq and Syria, much less Spain.
Jews, Visigoths and muslims in medieval Spain by Norman Roth, p. 47
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
| IP: Logged |
posted
Mohammed VI is the current King of Morocco. He belongs to the 'Alawi dynasty (Alaouite)
I'm talking about the kings, sultans of Morocco The Alawi dynasty claims descent from Muhammad via Hasan, the son of the Caliph Ali. The 'Alawis were a family of sharifian religious notables (or shurafa) who claimed descent from the Islamic prophet Muhammad via his descendant Hasan, the son of Ali and of Muhammad's daughter Fatimah. According to the dynasty's official historians, the family migrated from the Hijaz (in Arabia) to the Tafilalt during the 12th or 13th century at the request of the locals who hoped that the presence of a sharifian family would benefit the region. It is possible that the 'Alawis were merely one of many Arab families who moved westwards to Morocco during this period. The Tafilalt was an oasis region in the Ziz Valley in eastern Morocco and the site of Sijilmasa, historically an important terminus of the trans-Saharan trade routes
____________________________
Setting aside if they descend from Muhammad via Hasann in particular how do you know they aren't Arabs and the general population is a separate issue
The Muslim conquest of the Maghreb continued the century of rapid Muslim conquests following the death of Muhammad in 632 and into the Byzantine-controlled territories of Northern Africa. In a series of three stages, the conquest of the Maghreb commenced in 647 and concluded in 709 with the Byzantine Empire losing its last remaining strongholds to the then-Umayyad Caliphate under Caliph Muʿāwiya ibn Abī Sufyān.
They had to use armies to do this as the Arabs did in Egypt an the leaders were Arab. The doesn't mean it was population replacement but it does mean probable Arab ancestry in the monarchy and in a portion of the general population
posted
If I remember correctly one member of the royal family was under G2 not J1 and be realistic do you really think they can be mostly arab meanwhile the last time proper arabs settled in Morocco was the XIIIth century lol
I already showed you that such dynasties claim to be descendent of the prophet to legitimate their power. it's a well known phenomenon :
quote:In their rise to hegemony the Sa'adians and 'Alawis, although almost constantly obliged to defend their claim to the throne, had an important legitimizing factor on their side: they both claimed sharifian origin, that is, descent in the line of the family of the Prophet. Sharifs had long been especially venerated in Morocco (the first Moroccan dynasty, the Idrissid, was of sharifian origin), and many sharifian families had settled there. Now, with the emergence of the Sa'adians, sharifism was reintroduced as an important criterion in determining the legitimization of rule, that is, it acquired a political connotation to accompany its religious ones.
Edmund Burke, Morocco and the Near East : Reflections on some basic differences, pp. 73
+ they obviously don't look arab, ask any saudi/yemeni if the moroccan royal family look like them they'll laugh at you.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: [QB] If I remember correctly one member of the royal family was under G2 not J1 and be realistic do you really think they can be mostly arab meanwhile the last time proper arabs settled in Morocco was the XIIIth century lol
Of course Arabs conquered North Africa and while not replacing the local populations their monarchies maintain royal bloodline decent (with a little harem spicing on the maternal side)
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: [QB] If I remember correctly one member of the royal family was under G2 not J1 and be realistic do you really think they can be mostly arab meanwhile the last time proper arabs settled in Morocco was the XIIIth century lol
Of course Arabs conquered North Africa and while not replacing the local populations their monarchies maintain royal bloodline decent (with a little harem spicing on the maternal side)
That's absolutely not true + there is no continuity between the dynasties in North Africa. You clearly don't know what you're talking about.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: [QB] If I remember correctly one member of the royal family was under G2 not J1 and be realistic do you really think they can be mostly arab meanwhile the last time proper arabs settled in Morocco was the XIIIth century lol
Of course Arabs conquered North Africa and while not replacing the local populations their monarchies maintain royal bloodline decent (with a little harem spicing on the maternal side)
That's absolutely not true + there is no continuity between the dynasties in North Africa. You clearly don't know what you're talking about.
There is continuity in each dynasty
but not necessarily from one dynasty to another
The hard evidence, as per the region, is there, haplogroup J in a certain proportion of the population. There is no denying the DNA there
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: [QB] If I remember correctly one member of the royal family was under G2 not J1 and be realistic do you really think they can be mostly arab meanwhile the last time proper arabs settled in Morocco was the XIIIth century lol
Of course Arabs conquered North Africa and while not replacing the local populations their monarchies maintain royal bloodline decent (with a little harem spicing on the maternal side)
That's absolutely not true + there is no continuity between the dynasties in North Africa. You clearly don't know what you're talking about.
There is continuity in each dynasty
but not necessarily from one dynasty to another
The hard evidence, as per the region, is there, haplogroup J in a certain proportion of the population. There is no denying the DNA there
what are you talking about ? They all came from different tribes, there has never been any racial endogamy in Morocco nor any arab nobility. Moreover what's your point with haplogroups ? I already told you that haplogroups do not give any information in regards to the autosomal ancestry of an individual.
Stop arguing for the sake of arguing pls you're wasting my time.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
| IP: Logged |
posted
The STRs reveal the deep root of the ancestry back to it's beginning But autosomal only 5-8 generations (up to approximately 200 years)
Thus if there is some haplogroup J in the region and the sultans claim Arab ancestry that they might be primarily part of this minority as opposed to the E1b1b carriers that are the majority
It seems the reason you might not to want to admit to this is politics or examine the origins of when the haplogroup J got there. There was an Arab conquest. It is an historical fact even if most of the population are not
Therefore sultanates might not reflect the average populations closely
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The STRs reveal the deep root of the ancestry back to it's beginning But autosomal only 5-8 generations (up to approximately 200 years)
Thus if there is some haplogroup J in the region and the sultans claim Arab ancestry that they might be primarily part of this minority as opposed to the E1b1b carriers that are the majority
It seems the reason you might not to want to admit to this is politics or examine the origins of when the haplogroup J got there. There was an Arab conquest. It is an historical fact even if most of the population are not
Therefore sultanates might not reflect the average populations closely
Again do not speak about things you barely understand, Haplogroups are interesting in order to detect population movements not to assess the ethnic composition of a population. Haplogroups give information about only one ancestor, the founder of your lineage not about all your ancestors nor most of them.
plenty of europeans are under typical middle eastern or african lineages yet aren't genetically similar to such populations.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
| IP: Logged |
posted
Y and mitochondrial DNA reveal the deep root of the ancestry back to it's beginning But autosomal DNA only 5-8 generations (up to approximately 200 years)
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Y and mitochondrial DNA reveal the deep root of the ancestry back to it's beginning But autosomal DNA only 5-8 generations (up to approximately 200 years)
Stop confusing commercial test with a proper autosomal analysis and y-dna and mtdna only gives information about the founder of your lineage that's only one ancestor.
You can be fully italian and have a typical arab or iranian clade for instance.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
| IP: Logged |
posted
A faience tile from the throne of Pharaoh Ramses III depicting a tattooed ancient Libyan chief c. 1184 to 1153 BC.
From Tell el Yahudiya. Egypt 20th Dynasty.
British Museum
quote: Polychrome glazed composition tile: this expressive tile is of a captive Libyan chief. Portrayed with uplifted face and one arm bound by a rope, he wears ornamented chest-straps and a loin-cloth, the simple costume of an overlord of the ancient Libyan, or Tjehenu, tribe. His tattoos and pierced ear reflect current Libyan fashion. The surface of his body is modelled in relief, with moulded pieces like the face added separately. The tile has been reconstructed from three pieces.
posted
Taula de la mort dels missatgers del rei Ahazià del “Retaule de la transfiguració” de Jaume Huguet between 1466-1475 (on the right are the moorish soldiers) :
Apparently a lost bust of Massinissa :
The Pastrana Tapestries, commissioned by Portuguese King Alfonso V to celebrate conquering the Moroccan cities of Asilah and Tangiers in 1471. Here the whole pic :
Tile with Libyan prisoner from the time of Ramses III, from Lower Egypt: Nile Delta: Tell el-Yahudiya. Housed in British Museum
quote: Part of a polychrome glazed composition tile bearing a relief representation of the head and upper body of a Libyan prisoner with a pointed beard, side-lock and bound hands (one lost).
The rest of the hair and the lower half of the body are missing. The face and right arm are yellow-beige in colour, but the left arm is coated with a layer of white. The eye is outlined in black. The groove on the right side of the neck likely held an ornamental body strap. The head and body were composed of separate pieces, joined at the base of the neck. There are many traces of bright blue faience on the top layer of the base, which probably originally formed a blue background to the figure. The back of the tile is very flat with a smooth finish.
quote: This tile was one of many found in the remains of the palace of Ramses III at Tell el-Yahudiya. These tiles arguably display a greater variety of pose, scale, and detail than their counterparts from Medinet Habu, the mortuary temple of Ramses III, and include some of Egypt's most accomplished works from this final era of polychrome glazed composition.
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic