quote: He means the same academics who know nothing about the subject.
Hahahahahahahahahahaah!!!!!!!!
One day I'm going to come looking for you and remind you of this quote...I've just e-mailed it to myself.
You're such an idiot!! But go on, keep groping in the dark, omniscient one.
Now about that quote I asked to get on the facial reconstructions...as well as my other suggestions and questions....
Posts: 805 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2013
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quote: Who are these academic supporters you speak of? You have no problem disclosing private correspondences on the Internet, so I presume you wouldn't have any qualms identifying your supporters.
Actually, I would. Whether or not a troll like you believes me is immaterial.
FYI, that trolling I "admitted" to earlier was directed at VNN racists. Hardly the kind of people you'd judge to be sympathetic. Hell, they make the academics you're trying to blackmail look progressive. So I find it very strange that you're using my activities against white supremacists to discredit me, just as you tried to discredit Swenet with his earlier reaction to racist snipes on that Dutch forum. Must I conclude that Afrophobic racism is condonable to you if it's your opponents who are resisting it?
As for your unwillingness to cite your various backers, I can only conclude from it that they reside in a certain orifice of your own anatomy that's connected to the colon.
Posts: 7080 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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^Like I said, trolling is never acceptable. You meet your opponents with sound arguments. If you can't, then ignore them.
Unfortunately, I've seen enough of your presence here to know that your trolling and glib crap doesn't stop at racists.
Trying to blackmail? WTF? What financial gain do I stand to receive from self-publishing a book on academic bias? I've documented their responses and there are people out there who want me to write.
quote: Must I conclude that Afrophobic racism is condonable to you if it's your opponents who are resisting it?
Funny. When I named Juan Castillos as the academic behind a certain quote, you were critical.
quote: As for your unwillingness to cite your various backers, I can only conclude from it that they reside in a certain orifice of your own anatomy that's connected to the colon.
Yeah, you go on believing that.
T1t.
Posts: 805 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2013
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: I highly doubt anyone will pay any attention to his book and the ones that do will simply offer rebuttals. Like I said I dont think he's going to even make the book, it seems like such a silly idea. What is the end goal IMO.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: You guys think he's seriously going to make his book? I feel like he's blowing smoke I meat what would be the point, plus it could be seen as Libel lawfully in court.
Legal issues are the least of Carlos Oliver Coke's problems. He's going to self-destruct as soon as he goes public. All the deliberate lies he told his "supportive academics" are going to come to light. Half of them are going to abandon him anyway once they learn what Carlos Oliver Coke has been withholding. He has no way of coming out of this with his name untarnished. Coming out is only going to make it worse. His lies and fraud are just going to follow him wherever he goes. I'll make sure of that.
The academic community is unforgiving when it comes to fraud. The only reason his so-called supporters are still talking to him is because they're isolated from how I've been exposing him over the years. I'm willing to bet that if I can get an hour with them and relay Carlos Oliver Coke's manipulations, they're not going to want to touch him in public with a ten foot pole.
It could have been a decent project in the right hands. The problem is that Carlos Oliver Coke doesn't know how to approach this professionally. He keeps making it personal and doesn't know how to act when an academic puts him in his place with correct arguments. In his conversations he acts like he's on autopilot and making random and impulsive decisions. There is no strategy or organized effort. He also doesn't have a feel for what counts as admissible evidence. Something that looks like bias to someone is not proper evidence.
The legal and ethical issues you already mentioned would make me very hesitant to publish that though. Although it could have been useful for internal consumption if it were pursued by someone who knows what he's doing. I'm glad I got out as early as I did. It's definitely not a good look to be publicly associated with a politically driven cretin who tampers with data. I feel sorry for his "supportive academics". They really have no idea what he's dragging them in.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote: It could have been a decent project in the right hands. The problem is that Carlos Oliver Coke doesn't know how to approach this professionally. In his conversations he acts like he's on autopilot and making random and impulsive decisions. There is no strategy or organized effort. He also doesn't have a feel for what counts as admissible evidence.
Yeah, you never did confirm whether the idea for a book was yours. My recollection is that it was, but when you became critical, and I asked you to confirm the very idea as yours, you said it "may" have been. You have access to our FB correspondence, so feel free to confirm, especially, for Jari, once and for all.
Doing the write-up should be a very interesting learning experience. And I've got academics who've offered to help, as well as having their e-mailed critiques and comments to refer to. Moreover, I've got an MA, so can write. I've already done a word count and have way, way enough for a book.
quote: It's definitely not a good look to be publicly associated with a politically driven cretin who tampers with data. I feel sorry for his "supportive academics". They really have no idea what he's dragging them in.
Where have I tampered with data? Again, contact the academics you know me to have been in touch with and warn them.Posts: 805 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2013
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quote: Watch how many seasoned vets in AE population history he's going to mention (if he's not going to cower and avoid answering). I haven't been updated on his gossippy campaign for years, but I'm willing to bet he doesn't have anyone. but I'm willing to bet he doesn't have anyone. And if he has even one of them I'm willing to bet that he strikes a different tone with them knowing that they'll just put him in his place with the same things I'm telling him.
Hilarious!!! Your edits are just making you look even more ridiculous. Quit whilst you're ahead.
If you put a bet on it, you would certainly lose.
I'm looking forward to the day when I come back to you on this...
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Again, I have no doubt in my mind that Carlos is bluffing. He's not closely supported by seasoned vets in academia. Look at the difference between when Carlos Coke had me in his ear vs how sloppy his correspondences became after he no longer had me in his corner. Immediately the IQ level in his email conversations dropped to silly baiting like "were the AE black". And his abysmal level of competence hasn't improved in two years. He keeps making obtuse comments when he comments on genetics. He never makes inspired observations when people discuss advanced stuff. Who could possibly be advising him? I'm willing to bet it's not someone I respect in the field, let alone an authority on the subject.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote: Again, I have no doubt in my mind that Carlos is bluffing. He's not closely supported by seasoned vets in academia.Look at the difference between when Carlos Coke had me in his ear vs how sloppy his correspondences became after he no longer had me in his corner. Immediately the IQ level in his email conversations dropped to silly baiting like "were the AE black". And his abysmal level of competence hasn't improved in two years. He keeps making obtuse comments when he comments on genetics. He never makes inspired observations when people discuss advanced stuff. Who could possibly be advising him? I'm willing to bet it's not someone I respect in the field, let alone an authority on the subject.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaa!!!
quote: Immediately the IQ level in his email conversations dropped to silly baiting like "were the AE black".
How do you know this? Reference any of the e-mails I've posted on this site and quote them to back your assertion.
Anyway, you're being presumptuous. The vast majority of lay people, even academics, don't understand genetics - this won't feature in the book, not heavily anyway.
What will feature are the inconsistencies, evasiveness and intemperate responses.
Posts: 805 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2013
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Contact Irish and ask him whether or not he posits population homogeneity and continuity. I sense you won't because you know the implications if he confirms that he did, but anyway, go on
Also, you know of at least one, maybe more, academic(s) that have supported me in this. Carry through with your threat,contact them, tell them that I've misrepresented the findings of an academic.
Go on.
Your mock charges are getting boring -- all those e-mails that academics supposedly sent you about me never materialised when I challenged you to post them, did they?
Questions: Do you now reject the following?
quote: Not sure what Kemp is trying to say. There is every reason to believe that the Lower Egyptian type was the same as the Upper Egyptian type early on. Later on it never really becomes distinct from this type, it just becomes departure from it in varying degrees, much like Italians and Greeks are part of the European continuum, with some additional Near Eastern influences on top of that.
Who are my "uneducated public"?
Also, when you contact Joel Irish, ask him which groups the ancient Egyptians shared dental patterns with :
quote: in how he spams Irish's use of "homogeneous" but conveniently leaves out that the AE shared this "homogeneous" dental pattern with groups Carlos Oliver Coke considers non-black.
posted
Look how his "supportive academics" are letting Carlos Oliver Coke blunder in public. Did you ever catch him saying obtuse claptrap like this when I was advising him?
quote:Originally posted by tropicals redacted: @Tukuler
quote: White's footnote on dusky men says quote:
i.e., the dark-skinned people of Africa, the Egyptians or Aethiopians.
Egyptians or Sudanese is a direct hit on the Lower Nile Valley.
Useful. I think this came up in correspondence, where the academic concluded that the reference was to the Ethiopians. I did wonder whether an assumption had been made but didn't pursue it. Good find.
^Note that Carlos thinks the passage refers to territory near Egypt's border. I had no specific familiarity with that passage and even I was able to refute this based on general knowledge about the ancient Greek worldview. He was trying to 'pick sides' like a floundering buffoon but ending up having to backtrack.
Here is another recent example of how Carlos Coke's "supportive academics" telling him things that only embarrass him in public:
quote:You may/may not know I corresponded with Mary Lefkowitz, and we covered the meaning of melas and melanchroes. In the discussion she mentioned the term cyanoi/kyanos:
30/03/2015
quote: Homer talks about the Ethiopians as cyanoi, which we usually translate as dark blue, but must mean dark brown, or anyway really dark. Melas can mean dark as night, or just dark relative to something else (which is still how the term is used in modern Greek, according to a Greek friend of mine).
Interestingly, when I asked a Greek woman the meaning of melas, she instantly said 'black', and also said it can mean ink, as I think you mention upthread.
Cut a long story short, I was interested in seeing the Hesiod source describing Ethiopians as blue/black, so asked Mary Lefkowitz if she could provide it. (I wanted to know/had asked whether the Egyptians had been referred to kyanos.)She checked, and confirmed that actually melas and kyanos are interchangeable and that the Egyptians were referred to as kyanos:
19/06/2015
quote: I checked the Hesiod passage, see p. 3 of the attached, and the standard commentaries on the passage by M.L. West. West says that melas and kyanos are interchangeable, and cites Hesiod's other epic the Theogony line 406, also attached. In the note on the passage in the Works and Days, he cites a passage where Egyptians are called kyanoi.
I hadn't heard of ML West, so googled him:
quote:In the field of classical scholarship, as traditionally understood, Martin West is to be judged, on any reckoning, the most brilliant and productive Greek scholar of his generation, not just in the United Kingdom, but worldwide.
quote: The Greeks did distinguish between Aigyptoi and Aithiopes or the "burnt face" people who lived further south, but that doesn't mean that the Egyptians had lighter skin. Aithiops was a vague term that covered a lot of territory in Africa that Greeks had heard about but may not have seen.
Get in touch if you need any more info. [/QB]
Fortunately, Carlos is very generous with his phuckups. So we get a good idea of his progress over the years. Here this cretin goes on record insinuating that the AE didn't have somewhat lighter skin per the ancient Greeks. Also, he apparently thinks that the AE had something approaching jetblack skin by the time the Bronze Age was over. Carlos Coke also thinks that ancient Egyptians were still relatively unchanged by the time of the Islamic invasion and spams Pagani to support this laughable claim. He apparently thinks that the migrations of Arab tribes is solely responsible for making Medieval Egyptians go from looking like contemporary Nubians to ex president Mubarak. This guy is a complete retard. It's clear that no authority on this subject is closely supporting him.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote: Here this cretin goes on record insinuating that the AE didn't have somewhat lighter skin per the ancient Greeks.
What? The ancient Egyptians had lighter skin than the Greeks?
What?
quote: Carlos Coke also thinks that ancient Egyptians were still relatively unchanged by the time of the Islamic invasion and spams Pagani to support this laughable claim.
Uh, I make the claim that indigenous ancient Egyptians were still black by the time of the Greek and Roman periods. See how he deliberately misrepresents. That's why I want him to find that facial reconstruction quote.
quote: It's clear that no authority on this subject is closely supporting him.
Keep groping in the dark.
For the umpteenth time, when are you going to respond the suggestions and questions I put to you?Posts: 805 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2013
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Lol. This buffoon just accused me of making edits (which is what the edit button is for). Look at what he's now doing with two posts in a row. Is this retard completely out of his mind, or what?
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More edits. Strange, coming from a manchild who who's fond of making a big deal when someone else uses the edit button for what it's for. All the more evidence that the mental tics I ascribed to Carlos Coke are based in reality. Don't take my word for it. Just look at his bizarre actions.
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Thanks for clarifying. I never know with his bullsh1t.
Maybe you can also prompt him to answer the suggestions and questions I put to him.
------------------- No responses from Sidney Anson or Punos?
Then time to go.
It was good showing what lying pr1cks Sidney Anson and Brandon Pilcher are, but til next time... oh, between now and then you will remember to follow through on my points won't you Sid?
Remind him, Punos.
Posts: 805 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2013
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In 2014 Carlos Oliver Coke firmly believed that the skin tone of the 'Nefertiti' reconstruction was wrong. Supposedly, it was a compromise intended to make her lighter skinned because 'the powers that be' felt they had already made her face consistent with Africans (I'm not shitting you, he actually said that). This paranoid retard is all over the place and sees racism everywhere. If there is a reconstruction that we can look to as being fair it's the KV35YL ('Nefertiti') reconstruction:
^Punos you might want to take a look given your recent question.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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A big deal out of this reconstruction??? Seriously? To me this is one of the more accurate reconstruction. This reconstruction is not even outside of the realm of what us Americans consider "black." Hell Nefertiti in that reconstruction is darker than most indigenous Khoisan tribes...
Nefertiti wouldn't look taboo if she was in African-American dominated city Atlanta. Also to me see looks similar to this AA women.
So again I don't get what Carlos find bad about the reconstruction. She has "full African features" like full lips. Its only if we go by the silly true negroid concept that we will think this reconstruction is "wrong."
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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Another gem people might want to know given Carlos Coke's liberal use of of Keita quotes. In the same discussion where Carlos Coke tried to pick a fight with me on AE variation he was trying to lecture us about Keita being "aloof", "timid" and "placating racists" because he refuses to call anyone black other than himself:
Me too. I remember hearing him in one of his youtube presentations say in a hypothetical reference to an African Amerian "quote unquote black". He could easily say this about the Egyptians.
Courtesy of that guy Salassin, who recorded their conversation, Keita says something like: Shomarka doesn't call you black, only himself, that's political. (The exact quote is somewhere below.) My point is that he obviously knows what the score is regarding the racial backgrounds of the Egyptians, but comes across as aloof, and at the same time timid - he even tried to advise Sally-Ann Ashton against using 'black' as a racial descriptor when referencing the Egyptians. I don't like it that we're supposed to repress our common sense and intuition just to placate racists, whether they're on the internet or in academia. No way. —Carlos Oliver Coke (2014)
Note that Carlos Oliver Coke is completely missing the point and outright misrepresenting Keita's arguments. He says that Keita is simply playing games and that he "obviously knows the score" as if Keita doesn't make this choice out of necessity. Ingrate cretins like Carlos Oliver Coke think it's a coincidence that even pro-African physical anthropologists who have actually measured Nile Valley remains generally don't apply a racial use of 'black' in reference to the AE.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: A big deal out of this reconstruction??? Seriously?
So now you know why I completely denounce Carlos Oliver Coke's racial use of 'black' on all possible levels.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: So again I don't get what Carlos find bad about the reconstruction. She has "full African features" like full lips. Its only if we go by the silly true negroid concept that we will think this reconstruction is "wrong."
Mr. Coke just seems confused. He's acknowledged elsewhere that Northeast Africans have distinct physical features from West/Central Africans on average, yet here and in certain other exchanges he's insistent that AEs must all fit the "true Negro" stereotype. I mean, even if he insisted on calling AEs "black", he'd save himself a lot of trouble by arguing that NE Africans should qualify as "black" (in the sense of shorthand for indigenous African) instead of forcing AEs to fit a stereotype.
Posts: 7080 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Not even West or Central Africans have a uniform look within their own region though. You would think the argument for phenotypic diversity would BOLSTER one's position. But I guess he has another agenda he wishes to advance *shrugs*
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Meet on the Level, act upon the Plumb, part on the Square. Posts: 574 | From: Guinee | Registered: Jul 2014
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This is why I and others stopped using black as a descriptor simply because it can change depending on the culture, person, and topic.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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What Academics are they if you dont mind me asking?
quote:Originally posted by tropicals redacted:
quote: I highly doubt anyone will pay any attention to his book and the ones that do will simply offer rebuttals. Like I said I dont think he's going to even make the book, it seems like such a silly idea. What is the end goal IMO.
It's not going to be a best-seller, I want to document and air the bias.
So what do you make of those academics and writers who encourage me to write?
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Cokes... The Africanist on that site have been doing A LOT of work to make African history and Africanist to be taken seriously. What you are doing that hurts them. One poster linked this site and so it HURTS THIS SITE TOO!
posted
I post over there frequently and do consider people like Mansamusa, Hannibal, EAdama and others allies, what a joke that we all get lopped in with this garbage and subsequently silenced
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Meet on the Level, act upon the Plumb, part on the Square. Posts: 574 | From: Guinee | Registered: Jul 2014
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Cokes... The Africanist on that site have been doing A LOT of work to make African history and Africanist to be taken seriously. What you are doing that hurts them. One poster linked this site and so it HURTS THIS SITE TOO!
Chill out.
Having looked at the cache, I am not sure that's him. I've noticed someone (Atlantid) impersonating other posters with sock puppets and getting himself banned over there. I'm inclined to think this may be him again rather than the real deal.
Posts: 7080 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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I can't access that link (thread seems to be deleted). But it might not be Carlos Coke who posted that. Remember that this is what Carlos Oliver Coke said when he got locked out of his account and he was scared sh!tless that his conversations with academics would be leaked:
This is nuts! I too was concerned that they've been reading the correspondence. My worry is that it will turn up on the internet somewhere - although I still have much of it and your comments in my e-mail. —Carlos Oliver Coke (2013)
And always good for a laugh—his dramatic monologue about becoming famous and the prospect that his persecution of academics backfires (which has become a self-fulfilling prophesy):
I hope I'm not being cavalier, but can't help thinking that, outside of Egyptology and the race debate, there wouldn't be much interest in an article or in my identity. I suppose someone could write a web page with specific details about me/location, my qualifications and roles and then get enough people to repeatedly access that webpage to generate a high ranking in a google search. I suppose it's possible - maybe there's a large enough core of people out there who are angry at me for what I did to Anglo, and would be even more pissed off if I published Kemp's e-mails. I guess if, in the highly unlikely event, I ever became famous, someone might do that. However, I've wondered what they'd say - the content of my internet submissions is pretty reflective of mainstream values; I also think there'd be approval of my tackling a Cambridge academic. —Carlos Oliver Coke (2013)
Other bizarre quotes from the buffoon when he got locked out of his previous account:
And again, he could only have done this with ES management on side. Why do I suspect Lioness Is involved here? And for some reason, Zaharan —Carlos Oliver Coke (2013)
Someone is probably trolling Carlos Coke after visiting Egyptsearch and seeing what a cretin loser he is. I hope whoever did it continues to troll the crap out of Carlos Coke. Lol! Gives him a taste of his own medicine.
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posted
Sonia Zakrzewski (2002), Exploring Migration and Population Boundaries in Ancient Egypt: A Craniometric Case Study.
Another paper I handed to Carlos Oliver Coke around 2012 with the intention to inform him about ancient Egyptian variations. This was before he started tampering with his sources and spamming Irish to obscure the variations he doesn't like.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Sonia Zakrzewski (2002), Exploring Migration and Population Boundaries in Ancient Egypt: A Craniometric Case Study.
Another paper I handed to Carlos Oliver Coke around 2012 with the intention to inform him about ancient Egyptian variations. This was before he started tampering with his sources and spamming Irish to obscure the variations he doesn't like.
The specific email I sent to the fraudulent, lying, tampering, quote-mining buffoon in early 2013 (09-03-2013):
quote:I have many more, why these specific papers..? Other than that they're interesting, I've picked them because:
*Early humans -- to give you a perspective, a context, in which to place all modern populations.
*Egypt in an African context -- I don't know how well versed you are when it comes to the African aspects of Egyptian culture, but this is a good place to start
*On the relevance of regional continuity -- this is what you wanted to know: the relative frequencies fo traits in various populations that help to deduce ethnic affintiy
*Zakrezewski -- Makes it REAL clear for you to see the degree of change that occured in Egypt from predynastic times to late dynastic. The Gizah sample in this paper is the same as the late dynastic sample on one of Kemps dendrograms. It also goes by the name of E series. They cluster with modern Egyptians, and away from proto-Egyptians. They are intermediate between Northern Europeans and West Africans, while Egypto-Nubians and many East Africans (e.g., certain Masai groups) are intermediate between West Africans and Northern Africans.
*I've included the paper to let you know how much [x] is ignoring his own data. You said you were going to confront him with the limb proportion excerpt, well, this is the paper where he got it from (Smith 2002).
If you have questions that pertain to the information in these papers I'll answer to the best of my ability.
posted
Some of Carlos Oliver Coke's "supportive academics" think the best representatives of the AE are southern Sudanese. Of course, people are free to make up their own make believe world, but it shows who are in Carlos Oliver Coke's circle when he talks about "supportive academics".
Carlos Oliver Coke likes to brag about having the approval of "supportive academics", when he's criticized. He thinks that will allow him to deflect criticism. So, the next time Carlos Oliver Coke brags about having the approval of "supportive academics" but refuses to mention their names, you know this is one of the reasons why.
quote:That's interesting. In a class I attended, [x] said he thought that the people alive today most representative of the ancient Egyptians were populations in southern Sudan. This might sound superficial, but I can't get away from the sense that the Egyptians may have been significantly darker than seems to be the current understanding, as informed, it seems, by the tomb murals. If that were the case, then Maihepri's complexion wouldn't necessarily rule him out as an Egyptian. Especially since we know that Pre-dynastic Egyptians and Nubians were from a homogeneous population.
—Carlos Oliver Coke (2014)
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^^^So whats your beef with him, are you saying he's out of his league or he's misrepresenting his critics.
BTW, Ive never heard the Southern Sudanese as being the best representation of the AE, Ive always heard Upper Egypt and Northern Sudanese. If anything Maihipra looks like a Typical Aswani Egyptian to me. Then again Im no expert.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^So whats your beef with him, are you saying he's out of his league or he's misrepresenting his critics.
BTW, Ive never heard the Southern Sudanese as being the best representation of the AE, Ive always heard Upper Egypt and Northern Sudanese. If anything Maihipra looks like a Typical Aswani Egyptian to me. Then again Im no expert.
All of the above. It's a long story. From 2012 to 2014 I brought him up to speed to help him uncover academic racism. This happened behind the scenes in private conversations. In 2014 I started realizing he was using what I told him to pursue a racial agenda. When I called him out on it, he started picking a fight with me. During that fight I noticed the extent to which he was quote-mining from the many things I told him about African variation. I never noticed this before because he camouflaged it using the same terminology as I did at the time. For instance, I used the term 'black' at the time to refer to dark skinned people regardless of their 'racial' background. Carlos Coke's use of 'black' looked similar on the surface but his actions betrayed that his use of the term was divisive.
After that fallout I noticed him lie about various things in public. For instance, he started bragging about debating academics in public, something he couldn't do without my and others' help. Carlos Oliver wouldn't be able to debate a specialist on his own if they were high on truth serum. He's that incompetent. He also started posting email conversations online from his unsuccessful attempts to bait academics to describe the AE as 'black' in the racial sense. Some of them refused so he tried to 'expose' them online by posting their email conversations and insinuating they were racist. Here is the thing. Some of these academics had already conceded that the AE were African. He just wants them to say 'black' (in the racial sense), not because it follows from the evidence but because he wants to attach himself to AE prestige. Of course, he'll deny, but his political motivations show when he talks about reading his children AE bedtime stories to boost their confidence. He's free to do that all he wants, but when I catch him lying or obscuring in the process, I'm going to call him out.
Those are some of the reasons why I'm on his bumper. If he has no qualms with 'exposing' bias in the public narrative re: the origins of ancient Egypt he should have no problem with what I'm doing right now. Of course, he does have a problem with what I'm doing. He thinks he's exempt. He wants to expose other people from a safe distance and not be held accountable for his lies in regards to AE variation.
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Ive never heard the Southern Sudanese as being the best representation of the AE
I think some scholars half a century ago have made that inference I think primarily based on the cattle obsession the AE and groups like the Shilluk share, among other things. To my awareness, the sporadic people who made those claims aren't specialists in physical anthropology and merely making inferences based on culture.
But the scholar in that 2014 quote who supposedly said that during that lecture is Afro-British. He has the same political entitlement agenda as Carlos Oliver Coke.
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quote: This head also is identified due to the slightly accented diadem and serving as crown attachment pin with a royal lady. But not acted this head as part of a Kompositstatue, but the broken bottom of the neck and the rest of the back pillar indicate that this piece originally belonged to one among life-size statue, which was carved out of a block. In the long pin on the main presumably a wide sweeping backwards headgear was admitted, and the recesses at the height of the temples speak for a - typical for Nefertiti - Blue dome, which was placed the head. Dorothea Arnold therefore defines this type as "part-Kompositstatue". Lips, pegs and the game above the head are painted red, slight traces of black sketches have been preserved to the eyes and eyebrows that served as preparation for further elaboration. The tip of the nose is broken, and the ears do not seem completed. Compared to other Nefertiti portraits eyes narrow and mouth are drafted broadly, the cheek muscles are already at below the temples. These less individual features of their appearance they organize a as a late work of the Amarna period. The head is one of the small number granite beschaffener objects that came after the division of finds to Berlin. In 1992, Kristin Thompson discovered the rest of the debris excavations DOG 1911-1914 but additional 188 granite fragments, said she found out that the entire pieces of house P ancestral 47.03. The diary entry of December 13, 1912 contains a brief note about these "black granite pieces" and describes that these were uncovered in room 6, 10 and 12. FIG. Nevertheless, the excavation team had these fragments back locally. Among the debris was, inter alia, the part of an unmarked back pillar. Thompson moved logically connect to the Berlin granite head into the next room 11 of house P 47.03 excavated. A plaster cast was made Consequently for further investigation, and it was found that back pillar and head fit together exactly. Thompson and her colleague Dimitri Laboury were a sedentary double statue of Akhenaten and Nefertiti reconstruct (s.Rekonstruktion), similar to a group of statues of the royal couple from the Louvre (AE 004 253), on the even of the diary entry referred (from the many remaining parts "As the pieces of the same material show half the group in the Louvre, "diary 1912/1913, S. 83) is due to the head of a group that should be the king next to the Queen sitting. see. Arms, feet and the head of the king have not been discovered. It is amazing that this is the only monolithic crafted object from Akhetaten. Was what reason this art and this material resorted to speculations. There remains the hope that further discoveries and accurate observations will bring more insight to the Statue program the Amarna period. For Home P 47.03 can be assumed on the basis of the Fund context that was probably processed in this workshop mainly granite.
Mettlen, J., in: F. Seyfried (ed.), In the light of Amarna. 100 years discovery of Nefertiti, Berlin 2012, S. 386 (Cat 174).
Original German source:
quote: SMB-digital | Kopf einer Statue der Königin Nofretete
Auch dieser Kopf wird aufgrund der leicht akzentuierten Stirnbinde und dem als Kronenaufsatz dienenden Zapfen mit einer königlichen Dame identifiziert. Doch fungierte dieser Kopf nicht als Teil einer Kompositstatue, sondern vielmehr lassen die abgebrochene Unterseite des Halses sowie der Rest eines Rückenpfeilers erkennen, dass dieses Stück ursprünglich zu einer unterlebensgroßen Statue gehörte, die aus einem Block gehauen war. In den langen Zapfen auf dem Haupt war vermutlich eine weit nach hinten ausladende Kopfbedeckung eingelassen, und auch die Aussparungen auf Höhe der Schläfen sprechen für eine – für Nofretete typische – Blaue Haube, die dem Kopf aufgesetzt wurde. Dorothea Arnold definiert daher diesen Typus als „Teil-Kompositstatue“. Lippen, Zapfen sowie die Partie oberhalb des Kopfes sind rot bemalt, leichte Spuren schwarzer Vorzeichnungen sind noch an Augen und Brauen erhalten, die als Vorbereitung für eine weitere Ausarbeitung dienten. Die Nasenspitze ist abgebrochen, und auch die Ohren scheinen nicht vollendet. Im Vergleich zu Nofretetes anderen Bildnissen sind die Augen schmaler und der Mund breiter ausgearbeitet, die Wangenmuskeln setzen bereits unterhalb der Schläfen an. Diese weniger individuellen Züge ihres Erscheinungsbildes ordnen sie als ein spätes Werk der Amarna-Zeit ein. Der Kopf zählt zu der geringen Anzahl granitbeschaffener Objekte, die nach der Fundteilung nach Berlin gelangten. Im Jahre 1992 entdeckte Kristin Thompson im Restschutt der Grabungen der DOG von 1911 bis 1914 jedoch weitere 188 Granit-Fragmente, wobei sie herausfand, dass die gesamten Stücke aus Haus P 47.03 stammten. Der Tagebucheintrag vom 13. Dezember 1912 enthält eine kurze Notiz zu diesen „schwarzen Granitstücken“ und beschreibt, dass diese in Raum 6, 10 und 12 freigelegt wurden. Trotzdem ließ das Grabungsteam diese Fragmente vor Ort zurück. Unter den Bruchstücken befand sich u. a. der Teil eines unbeschrifteten Rückenpfeilers. Thompson zog konsequenterweise eine Verbindung zu dem in Nebenraum 11 von Haus P 47.03 ausgegrabenen Berliner Granitkopf. Infolgedessen wurde für weitere Untersuchungen ein Gipsabguss angefertigt, wobei sich herausstellte, dass Rückenpfeiler und Kopf haargenau aneinanderpassen. Thompson und ihr Kollege Dimitri Laboury konnten aus den vielen restlichen Teilen eine sitzende Doppelstatue Echnatons und Nofretetes rekonstruieren (s.Rekonstruktion), vergleichbar mit einer Statuengruppe des Königspaares aus dem Louvre (AE 004253), auf die auch schon der Tagebucheintrag verwies („Wie die Stücke desselben Materials zeigen, rührt der Kopf einer Gruppe her, die den König neben der Königin sitzend darstellen sollte, vgl. die halbe Gruppe im Louvre“, Tagebuch 1912/1913, S. 83). Arme, Füße sowie der Kopf des Königs wurden bisher nicht aufgefunden. Erstaunlich ist, dass es sich hierbei um das einzige monolithisch gearbeitete Objekt aus Achet-Aton handelt. Aus welchem Grund auf diese Technik und dieses Material zurückgegriffen wurde, kann nur vermutet werden. Es bleibt die Hoffnung, dass weitere Funde und genaue Beobachtungen mehr Aufschluss zum Statuenprogramm der Amarna-Zeit bringen werden. Für das Haus P 47.03 kann anhand des Fundkontextes angenommen werden, dass in dieser Werkstatt wahrscheinlich vor allem Granit bearbeitet wurde.
Mettlen, J., in: F. Seyfried (Hrsg.), Im Licht von Amarna. 100 Jahre Fund der Nofretete, Berlin 2012, S. 386 (Kat.-Nr. 174).
posted
Do you have something you want to say to me after my posts on KV35YL? Just get it over with. What is the purpose of this cryptic post?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Do you have something you want to say to me after my posts on KV35YL? Just get it over with. What is the purpose of this cryptic post?
There is no subliminal here. I just find it ironic that there is a lot of controversy surrounding the bust. Or should I say busts. The well known and "popular bust" looks so different, posted in my previous post, and below.
posted
More examples of Carlos Oliver Coke's epic blunders. He tries to claim that the modern day translation of the Latin ethnonym 'Aegyptini' to 'Aethiopes' (as opposed to Egyptian) is necessarily based on racism. On closer inspection it turned out that this is, in fact, what has historically been the reading of this ethnonym. This tradition of translating Aegyptini to 'Aethiopes' predates modern day racist attitudes towards Africans as they exist today and therefore can't be some sort of modern 'conspiracy' among academics.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote: Originally posted by lioness: look here are some references Festus' Latin dictionary Aegyptīni : Aethiopes
That is his whole M.O. He knocks on a bunch of doors begging academics for opinions and sharing supposed examples of academic "racism" with them. Some generous and unsuspecting academics are receptive to his freeloading, leeching and gossiping about other academics, while other aren't. He then gets the receptive ones riled up and with more gossip and unsubstantiated examples of so-called "racism". The more his correspondents express disapproval towards their colleagues following his instigations and gossiping, the more he becomes convinced that he was right in the first place. Which is where you get his appeals to authority when he says "such and such PhD/Classicist/(insert some other person's opinion) agrees with me" in lieu of providing his own arguments and analyses. In his demented mind, approval from a PhD automatically shields him from criticism and scrutiny. Everyone who disagrees with him is supposed to fall in line following his announcement that some academic agrees with him.
But here is the thing -- and what you've posted following his allegations of "racism" re: Aegyptini, is an excellent example of this -- closer inspection shows again and again that the majority of his purported examples of "academic racism", aren't racism. They're just a reflection of his paranoia and cringing illiteracy and lack of basic reasoning skills.
Tsk, tsk, tsk. What a monumental screw up. There are actually many academics out there who are worthy of pursuing for certain views they hold. But he's too incompetent, dim-witted and ignorant of the literature to find them. That's why he settles with harassing academics who refuse to use the word "black" and other petty disagreements.
Typical of Carlos Oliver Coke when his misinformation is exposed as false: he'll just act like he never registered the facts and simply resurface later with the same exposed misinformation. See here:
posted
See what I mean (see the emphasized parts in Carlos' post below)? This is why Carlos Oliver coke doesn't disclose the names of his "academic supporters". His appeals to authority and constant hinting at conversations with "academic supporters" sounds more juicy than it really is. You can see how they're egging each other on to identify racism where there is none. This is Carlos Oliver Coke's fault because that's the context in which he approaches them—with false examples of racism. They can't tell they're not really examples of racism half the time because Carlos Oliver Coke deliberately approaches non-experts (e.g. he shows classicists supposed examples of racism at the hands of physical anthropologists). So when Carlos invites these "supportive academics" to look at suggestive examples of racism, they can't possibly have a neutral outlook on the situation. That's exactly what Carlos Coke wants. Any emotional reaction to his fake controversy will give him more quotable text to play academics against each other. "See, Peter, who is a PhD, agrees with me. Why don't you fall in line so I can use your reaction to my fake controversy in future conversations with other academics".
quote:Originally posted by Carlos Oliver Coke: Remembered this...
I asked a Latinist if they could translate the following passage from Poenulus, or The Young Carthaginian:
sed mea amica nunc mihi irato obviam veniat velim: iam pol ego illam pugnis totam faciam uti sit merulea, ita replebo atritate, atrior multo ut siet, quam Aegyptini, qui cortinam ludis per circum ferunt.
quote:But I wish my girlfriend would run into me now as angry as I am: Indeed, by Pollux, I would rain blows all over her so that she is like a blackbird! I will so fill her with blackness (darkness?) that she will be much blacker (darker) than the little Egyptians who carry a kettle through the Circus (Maximus) at the games.
For me, what's more interesting than the reference to Egyptian darkness/blackness, is the fact that, to the Latinist's annoyance, a modern academic replaced Aegyptini with Ethiopians:
24/07/2015
quote: “You must try to get your hands on a translation by Amy Richlin (Richly, Amy. (2005) Rome and the Mysterious Orient. Berkeley: University of California Press.) …In the passage you inquire about, she changes “Aegyptini” to ETHIOPIANS!! She based this on an entry in a very obscure lexicon by a second century CE author, Sextus Pompeius Festus.”
Was the obvious reference suggestion to Egyptian blackness too much for Richlin?
I was cool with it though, since the substitution speaks to the interesting idea of the interchangeableness of Egyptians/Ethiopians; I’ve not read it, but the Sextus Pompeius Festus entry would seem to attest to this. It also chimes with something Sally-Ann Ashton said at the 2009 Manchester museum conference about the Greeks confusing the two groups – Tristan Samuels likened this to confusing Afro-Caribbeans and continental Africans on a day to day street level basis.
posted
Forgot to add this latest scientific update and how it relates to Carlos Oliver Coke's attempts to bait academics to use racial language that obviously doesn't fit.
This is what happens when you don't want to listen and insult the people who helped you out. His whole book project just went pear-shaped. No one is going to associate this component with his perverted racial use of black (which recklessly excludes Maghrebis and the indigenous North African component they have). Not in a million years. The academics he's been attacking online and in conversations with their colleagues are going to have a field day picking him apart in public. I really do hope he publishes his 'PhD-approved' book and becomes even more of a laughing stock.
quote:Craniometric analyses have suggested that the Natufians may have migrated from north or sub-Saharan Africa, a result that finds some support from Y chromosome analysis which shows that the Natufians and successor Levantine Neolithic populations carried haplogroup E, of likely ultimate African origin, which has not been detected in other ancient males from West Eurasia (Supplementary Information, section 6). However, no affinity of Natufians to sub-Saharan Africans is evident in our genome-wide analysis, as present-day sub-Saharan Africans do not share more alleles with Natufians than with other ancient Eurasians (Extended Data Table 1). (We could not test for a link to present-day North Africans, who owe most of their ancestry to back-migration from Eurasia.)
—Lazaridis et al 2016
Presumably, and this is my guess, this rift in affinity between the Natufians and Lazaridis' SSA samples is due to a similar amount of 'basal' alleles (not necessarily Basal Eurasian but basal in a general sense) in these prehistoric Eurasians as in the Natufians. It's not the case that these Natufians don't have any SSA ancestry at all. Other analyses have found some residual ancestry in these Natufians that is SSA in affinity. The rest of the African ancestry in these Natufians belongs to type of ancestry that's habitually wished away and obfuscated by Carlos Oliver Coke.
See, for instance, the quote below, which shows his usual attempt to equate 'black African' (which, in his use, pertains to a fictitious pan-African 'racial' grouping, not a range of skin pigmentation) with African. As usual, Carlos Oliver Coke refuses to acknowledge African ancestry that's not native to people he lumps in his racial 'black Africans' group. We're supposed to believe there were only 'black Africans' and Eurasians in the >120ky that North Africa was peopled by modern humans:
quote:Originally posted by Carlos Oliver Coke: The takeaway point would seem to be that the modern Egyptian sample has 80% West Eurasian/non-African genetic input, with the admixture coinciding with the Arab conquest.
posted
Interesting public exchange with Carlos Oliver Coke in 2015 that deserves to be listed with the rest of his lies and manipulations.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Carlos Oliver Coke:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Current US views on what 'black' generally means to US citizens and how it evolved:
^Irrelevant.
So, let me get this straight. He brings in his usual citations saying that the AE would be considered black using US standards. US standards are then posted. Then he shifts the goal post to what Somali and Ethiopians reportedly believe and calls his own previously set goal post "irrelevant".
Not only that, but he then blames me for "chicanery". These extremely bizarre antics and flip flops is really all one needs to know about Carlos Oliver Coke.
This is EXACTLY what Carlos Oliver Coke does to academics who tell him they subscribe to the WESTERN use of black. He's told they're using the modern day WESTERN tradition (as most westerners do), and then he tries to debate them using his own free-floating, clumsily defined, cooked up definition. When they reject said definition (probably because they realize it's just Carlos' trojan horse), he calls them "wasist".
posted
More Carlos Oliver Coke blunders from that same thread:
quote:Originally posted by Carlos Oliver Coke (12-12-2015): Racial self-identification varied widely by African country of origin. For example, nearly all immigrants from Ghana (99.7 percent), Somalia(99.3 percent) , Cameroon (98.8 percent), Nigeria (98.7 percent), and Ethiopia (98.2 percent) reported their race as Black, either alone or in combination with another race, compared to 4.6 percent of Algerians, 5.6 percent of Egyptians, 8.1 percent of Moroccans, 13.8 percent of South Africans, 56.7 percent of Tanzanians, and 65.7percent of Cape Verdeans .
Here Carlos Oliver Coke is seen vehemently promoting the idea that self-identifications are a valid and meaningful way to classify populations.
You'd think this means Carlos Oliver Coke will back down from his irrational reliance on self-identifications as a useful means to classify populations when he's shown evidence that the facts on the ground don't support his fabricated conjecture that dark skinned Africans necessarily identify as 'black' in the narrow western sense. But no, Carlos Oliver Coke is a shameless troll and will simply continue pretending that he hasn't been thoroughly debunked again and again. I posted evidence that expose him to be a goal-post shifting fraud many times (see data below) and it still was't enough for him accept that not all Africans derive petty psychological relief from subscribing to a fictitious racial construct of 'black Africans'.
quote:Originall posted by Swenet: "In America, blackness simply means African American. I am not African American. I am from Kenya." Benjamin Aigbe Okonofua - “I Am Blacker Than You” - Theorizing Conflict Between African Immigrants and African Americans in the United States
"Although conceptions about race in America among academics continue to emphasize local, mutable, and contradictory constructions (Bailey, 2001), the public continues to treat the issue of race as a dichotomy, that is in either White or Black terms." Benjamin Aigbe Okonofua - “I Am Blacker Than You” - Theorizing Conflict Between African Immigrants and African Americans in the United States
"The construction and/or enactment of distinct ethnolinguistic identities (including preliminary construction of pseudomigrant identities) by African immigrants signify inherent contradictions within the amorphous “Black” identity that is thought to be a code word for African American." Benjamin Aigbe Okonofua - “I Am Blacker Than You” - Theorizing Conflict Between African Immigrants and African Americans in the United States
"Third, because the prevailing system of racial classification lumps African immigrants and African Americans into the Black or African American category without enabling these elements to make clear behavioral and cultural assertions based on their sociohistorical milieus, opportunities and resources can only be accessed as African American." Benjamin Aigbe Okonofua - “I Am Blacker Than You” - Theorizing Conflict Between African Immigrants and African Americans in the United States
How Somalis use 'black' among themselves in informal settings:
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But this is where it gets even more bizarre. The crazy Carlos Oliver Coke psychopath has gone on record throwing a fit when his opponents use modern Egyptian self-identifications to argue against a 'black' identity. This is simply mindboggling as you can see that Carlos himself uses census data (which is inherently based on self-identifications) to make some sort of uneducated point about the legitimacy of lumping all indigenous Africans into his fictitious 'black African' category, which he also strangely equates with the modern US definition of 'black'. But that's another subject we don't need to get into right now.
This is how this psychopath reacts when others (in this case, an academic) use the same bankrupt arguments he's using:
quote:Originally posted by Carlos Oliver Coke (in private) 16-12-2013: This is the same person who suggestively recommends that from a visual perspective, we could use the modern Egyptians as a guide in a TV reconstruction – but when that falls apart, and he’s losing the debate on biological affinities, he says race doesn’t matter and that metaphysical concepts of national and cultural identity are more important, and discussions of race a "red herring". Goalpost moving bullshitter.
But Carlos Oliver Coke does the EXACT same thing. In addition to his hypocritical use of census data, which I've already discussed, Carlos Oliver Coke is the epitome of the moral and intellectual bankruptcy he perceives in his opponents when he says that they dismiss real genetic relationships in favor of the scientifically inadmissible crap:
quote: Originally posted by Carlos Oliver Coke 29-09-2014:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Your "street experience" test is meaningless fluff as it doesn't discriminate between Africans and pigmented Asians on the one hand or modern day SSA and preOOA Africans on the other hand (the latter are more related to Europeans than those those you consider "black", despite heavy skin pigmentation). Kemp owned you for presenting him that fallacy, as you're being owned right now.
The basic question, which you're playing around with, is whether the ancient Egytians would be considered black in Western sociological terms, or street experience.
and:
quote:Originally posted by Carlos Oliver Coke 29-09-2014:
quote: Originally posted by Swenet: Nope, the basic question is whether you're omitting the fact that this doesn't mean what you want it to mean, considering the fact that 1) OOA populations would have passed that test for the majority of their duration of their stay outside of Africa, 2) AE with more ancestry from African preOOA individuals would have passed that test as well, and it would mean the exact opposite of what you're promoting it to mean.
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