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Clyde Winters
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I posted a Table using data from Iain Mathieson et al 2017.

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lioness deleted the Table claiming you can not use public data to construct your own chart. This is bs. I illustrated that Haak et al (2015), used the same data.
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Data in the public domain can be used by any researcher. Due to lioness' racism s/he can't handle the truth, that the ancient Europeans were not Indo-Europeans, they were Sub-Saharan Africans.


It is obvious lioness has never written or published a research paper. It also shows that s/he has never taken a graduate research course. if s/he had, and s/he used this reasoning to delete my post, it proves s/he is a white supremacist.


To disguise the African ancestry of the ancient Europeans Geno-Hamiticists change the name/number of African haplogroups to differentiate them from Europeans carrying the same haplogroup. R1b1 and Rlb1a were clades belonging to V88.

R1b1 and R1b1a do not change just because you give it a different number. Below is Cruciani et al (2010).

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Researchers give ancient DNA what ever number they wish. For example Haak et al (2015) claims I0124 (Samara_HG) is R1b1, while Iain Mathieson et al 2017, claims I0124 is R1b1a1a. How can the same individual be assigned two different R1 clades. The same thing is obvious in labeling I0124 (Samara_HG) R1b1 ( L278) and I0410 (Spain_EN) R1b1 (M415).

This is nothing but Trickology, an attempt to make it appear the individual was not Sub-Saharan African.

See: Iain Mathieson et al 2017, The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe,
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/05/09/135616.full.pdf

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C. A. Winters

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the lioness,
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^^^ The above chart that Clyde says
"Table 3: African V88 Subclades in Eurasia"

Is not what Iain Mathieson said in in Table 3 or anywhere in his article. V88 is not even mentioned in the article !

It is Clyde pretending to be Iain Mathieson

Clyde like to impersonate other researchers

He is trying to fool the readership into thinking these researchers said something when he is really Clyde saying it.
It's very dishonest.

Clyde you could have been a famous novelist by now.
Instead you have wasted your time making up stuff and passing it off as legitimate

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Clyde Winters
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Stop making stuff up. Admit you deleted the material because it did not support your white supremacist ideas about ancient Europeans. Your comments indicate that you can't handle the truth.

This behavior shows your ignorance. I am not impersonating Mathieson. On the chart I said the data came from their article.

You make tables to organize and compress data. Mathieson provides the haplogroups for 470 individuals. The mtDNA and Y-DNA haplogroups carried by each individual is listed. They are not organized in groups of clades. As a result, I had to extract haplogroups that matched Cruciani et al2010, V88 clades and the R1b1* clades listed by Gemma Berniell-Lee et al (2009),

I published in the table the Y-chromosome R1 clades from the Mathieson et al (2017) study that are V88 clades. This allowed the reader to efficiently see these specific clades instead of attempting to find the V88 clades out of the 470 haplogroups listed in the Matheison et al (2017) Table.

I took the data from Mathieson et al (2017) and used Excel to make a Table of the data that accurately list the V88 clades. Only a moron would believe I was imitating Mathieson et al.

Placing data onto Excell to make a V88 chart in no way allowed me to impersonate the authors of the article as you erroneously claim. It is the standard behavior of researchers who want to efficiently translate and organize data.


Reference:

Gemma Berniell-Lee Francesc Calafell Elena Bosch Evelyne Heyer Lucas Sica Patrick Mouguiama-Daouda Lolke van der Veen Jean-Marie Hombert Lluis Quintana-Murci David Comas ,Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages, Mol Biol Evol (2009) 26 (7): 1581-1589.
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C. A. Winters

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the lioness,
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The oldest R1b was found in Italy therefore you can't call any of these variants subclades of African V88.

All of this comes from reference to Cuciani 2010
He is the one who discovered V88


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http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n7/fig_tab/ejhg2009231f1.html#figure-title


As we can see M269 is not downstream of V88 it comes from the
P297 which is already a spilt from P25. The various red highlighted V88 subclades are not European and are only in high frequencies in very small parts of Africa.

M269 is all over Europe in high frequencies. The diversity of haplogroup R is much greater in Eurasia than in Africa. It includes not only R1b but R1a as well as R2

The oldest humans remains found carrying haplogroup R are found in Siberia and the oldest human remains found carrying in R1b are in Italy

So none of these factors, diversity, frequency or human remains suggest that haplogroup R originated in Africa

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
The oldest R1b was found in Italy therefore you can't call any of these variants subclades of African V88.

All of this comes from reference to Cuciani 2010
He is the one who discovered V88


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http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n7/fig_tab/ejhg2009231f1.html#figure-title


As we can see M269 is not downstream of V88 it comes from the
P297 which is already a spilt from P25. The various red highlighted V88 subclades are not European and are only in high frequencies in very small parts of Africa.

M269 is all over Europe in high frequencies. The diversity of haplogroup R is much greater in Eurasia than in Africa. It includes not only R1b but R1a as well as R2

The oldest humans remains found carrying haplogroup R are found in Siberia and the oldest human remains found carrying in R1b are in Italy

So none of these factors, diversity, frequency or human remains suggest that haplogroup R originated in Africa

Stop making stuff up Haak et al (2015) discussed the haplogroups of the oldest R1 clades and they were not M269. Haak et al (2015) wrote:


quote:


We determined that 34 of the 69 newly analyzed individuals were male and used 2,258 Y chromosome SNPs targets included in the capture to obtain high resolution Y chromosome haplogroup calls (SI4). Outside Russia, and before the Late Neolithic period, only a single R1b individual was found (early Neolithic Spain) in the combined literature (n=70). By contrast, haplogroups R1a and R1b were found in 60% of Late Neolithic/Bronze Age Europeans outside Russia (n=10), and in 100% of the samples from European Russia from all periods (7,500-2,700 BCE; n=9). R1a and R1b are the most common haplogroups in many European populations today18,19, and our results suggest that they spread into Europe from the East after 3,000 BCE. Two hunter-gatherers from Russia included in our study belonged to R1a (Karelia) and R1b (Samara), the earliest documented ancient samples of either haplogroup discovered to date. These two hunter-gatherers did not belong to the derived lineages M417 within R1a and M269 within R1b that are predominant in Europeans today18,19, but all 7 Yamnaya males did belong to the M269 subclade18 of haplogroup R1b.

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These individuals carried R1b1, which had to be V88 and African if it was not M269 as noted by the African carriers of R1b1 in Cruciani et al (2010).
Kivisild (2017 ) cited Cruciani et al (2017) when he said the oldest European R1 clades were relatives of V88.
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the lioness,
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Clyde you don't seem to understand the branching.
A given sub clade may be younger than another sub clade but that doesn't mean the older one is the ancestor necessarily of the younger one.

And if one is talking about the oldest form of R there was a time when there was only R
Then it split into R1 and R2
at this time there was no R1a and R1b
Those two are splits from R1.

So no, R1b is not the first version of R. It comes thousands of years later after there only existed R1
and thousands of years before R1 there was simply R

So we begin with R

Once there is any number or letter after R, it came later.

So when you are talking about 1 or 2 or a or b of a haplogroup you are not talking about the original form of that haplogroup

And the above chart is a chart of R1 it doesn't show R2 or the original basal R (M207)
because the article is focused on R1 not the ultimate origins of the haplogroup, R

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
The oldest R1b was found in Italy therefore you can't call any of these variants subclades of African V88.

All of this comes from reference to Cuciani 2010
He is the one who discovered V88


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http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n7/fig_tab/ejhg2009231f1.html#figure-title


As we can see M269 is not downstream of V88 it comes from the
P297 which is already a spilt from P25. The various red highlighted V88 subclades are not European and are only in high frequencies in very small parts of Africa.

M269 is all over Europe in high frequencies. The diversity of haplogroup R is much greater in Eurasia than in Africa. It includes not only R1b but R1a as well as R2

The oldest humans remains found carrying haplogroup R are found in Siberia and the oldest human remains found carrying in R1b are in Italy

So none of these factors, diversity, frequency or human remains suggest that haplogroup R originated in Africa

Euronuts are funny, don't you think?


[Roll Eyes] Dude, it was an African population in that region. The specimen is African in origin. Didn't they teach you this in Africana classes?


quote:
Nevertheless, Villabruna 1, more then the majority of his contemporaries, retains climatic adaptation typical of the ancestral African population.
quote:
These data suggest that while Villabruna 1 retains more ancestral condition indicative of African origin than its contemporaries, this specimen fits well in the microevolutionary process that affected European Upper Paleolithic populations leading to the progressive acquisition of body proportions typical of temperate regions.
quote:
However, mitocondrial DNA analyses carried out on prehistoric human remains from this region highlighted in Villabruna 1 a sequence not observed in contemporary European populations (Di Benedetto et al., 2000), raising the possibility of genetic discontinuity between the last hunter-gatherers from the Alps and subsequent populations.
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Ish Gebor
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It's highly amusing that someone such as yourself who claims to endorse "Africana", actually does everything in nature to go against it at the same time. Branching? [Big Grin]

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Clyde you don't seem to understand the branching.
A given sub clade may be younger than another sub clade but that doesn't mean the older one is the ancestor necessarily of the younger one.

And if one is talking about the oldest form of R there was a time when there was only R
Then it split into R1 and R2
at this time there was no R1a and R1b
Those two are splits from R1.

So no, R1b is not the first version of R. It comes thousands of years later after there only existed R1
and thousands of years before R1 there was simply R

So we begin with R

Once there is any number or letter after R, it came later.

So when you are talking about 1 or 2 or a or b of a haplogroup you are not talking about the original form of that haplogroup

And the above chart is a chart of R1 it doesn't show R2 or the original basal R (M207)
because the article is focused on R1 not the ultimate origins of the haplogroup, R

Nope, the Basal in Central Africa:


quote:
An ancient human back migration from Asia to Africa had already been proposed by Altheide and Hammer (1997) and Hammer et al. (1998, 2001), on the basis of nested cladistic analysis of Y-chromosome data. They suggested that the presence of YAP+ chromosomes in Africa was due to such an event, but this has recently been questioned by Underhill et al. (2001b) and Underhill and Roseman (2001), primarily on the basis of the Asian-specific YAP+ subclade that neutralizes the previous phylogenetic inferences. Thus, the only evidence of a migration from Asia to sub-Saharan Africa that is fully supported by Y-chromosome data relies, at least for the moment, on the finding of haplogroup IX chromosomes in Cameroon.

Group IX Chromosomes in Sub-Saharan Africa: An Asian Origin?

How can the presence of Group IX chromosomes at considerable frequency in Cameroon be explained? A priori, we can envision three possibilities. First, group IX chromosomes in Cameroon are due to rather recent male gene flow from Europe or the Near East. Second, the entire M9 superclade (haplogroups VII–X) has an African origin. Third, group IX chromosomes in Cameroon represent a footprint of a male back migration from Asia to Africa. The first scenario seems to be very unlikely, because only derived haplotypes, carrying the M269 or M17/SRY10831 mutations, have been detected in western Eurasia. The second hypothesis, an African origin of the M9 superclade that includes haplotype 117, would imply a subsequent impressive extinction of derivative lineages in sub-Saharan Africa, since no other haplotypes carrying the M9 mutation (haplogroups VII–X) have been observed in this region (the only exception being represented by a few haplotype 109 chromosomes found in the Fulbe from Cameroon). The last scenario, that of a back migration from Asia to Africa, currently appears to be by far the most plausible. This is because most of the M9 haplotypes (the majority of group VII and VIII lineages, as well as some group IX and X lineages reported by Underhill et al. [2000]) have been observed only in Asia. Moreover, this possibility appears to be further supported by the recent finding of the UTY2+/M173− intermediate haplotype (Karafet et al. 2001) in central and northeastern Asia (the UTY2 marker in the study by Karafet et al. [2001] corresponds to M207 in the present study).


—Fulvio Crucian et al. (2002)
A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes


However in the 2011 paper they found chromosomes to be matching, which lacked presence in prior studies, thus the phylogenetic needed a reevaluation. And the painful conclusions can be read, in more recent papers published by Fulvio Crucian et al.


quote:
In conclusion, we present here a Y chromosome phylogenetic tree deeply revised in its root and earliest branches. Our data do not uphold previous models of Y chromosomal emergence 15, 16 and demand a reevaluation of some fundamental ideas concerning the early history of the human genetic diversity we find today. 38–40 Our phylogeny shows a root in central-northwest Africa. Although this point requires further attention, we think that it offers a new prospect from which to view the initial development of our species in Africa.
—Fulvio Cruciani et al. (‎2011)
A Revised Root for the Human Y Chromosomal Phylogenetic Tree: The Origin of Patrilineal Diversity in Africa

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
…

So we begin with R

Once there is any number or letter after R, it came later.

Dude, how is it possible that the mutations that make up the basal for Haplo R are found amongst people who also carry the basal lineage A1b, in the exact same region?

See, this is why Africana needs to be expanded with classes of anthropology and archeology so it becomes more practical.


quote:
The deepest branching separates A1b from a monophyletic clade whose members (A1a, A2, A3, B, C, and R) all share seven mutually reinforcing derived mutations (five transitions and two transversions, all at non-CpG sites). To retain the information from the reference MSY tree13 as much as possible, we named this clade A1a-T (Figure 1). Within A1a-T, the transversion V221 separates A1a from a monophyletic clade (called A2-T) consisting of three branches: A2, A3, and BT, the latter being supported by ten mutations (Figure 1)
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—Fulvio Cruciani et al

A Revised Root for the Human Y Chromosomal Phylogenetic Tree: The Origin of Patrilineal Diversity in Africa


quote:
‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups. All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14]. In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome. Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1).

[...]

Three of the seven R-specific mutations (V45, V69 and V88) were previously mapped within haplogroup R [34], whereas the remaining four mutations have been here positioned at the root of haplogroups F (V186 and V205), K (V104) and P (V231) (Figure S1) through the analysis of 12 haplogroup F samples (samples 40–51, in Table S1).

[...]

Figure S1 Structure of the macro-haplogroup CT. For details on mutations see legend to Figure 1. Dashed lines indicate putative branchings (no positive control available). The position of V248 (haplogroup C2) and V87 (haplogroup C3) compared to mutations that define internal branches was not determined. Note that mutations V45, V69 and V88 have been previously mapped (Cruciani et al. 2010; Eur J Hum Genet 18:800–807).

(TIF)
Haplogroup affiliation for 51 Y chromosomes
Table S1 analyzed in this study. (XLS)


—Fulvio Cruciani et al. (2012)

Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree

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Clyde Winters
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Ish thanks for this important information.
quote:


The deepest branching separates A1b from a monophyletic clade whose members (A1a, A2, A3, B, C, and R) all share seven mutually reinforcing derived mutations (five transitions and two transversions, all at non-CpG sites). To retain the information from the reference MSY tree13 as much as possible, we named this clade A1a-T (Figure 1). Within A1a-T, the transversion V221 separates A1a from a monophyletic clade (called A2-T) consisting of three branches: A2, A3, and BT, the latter being supported by ten mutations (Figure 1).
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The reality that
quote:


The deepest branching separates A1b from a monophyletic clade whose members (A1a, A2, A3, B, C, and R) all share seven mutually reinforcing derived mutations (five transitions and two transversions, all at non-CpG sites).

It is mind blowing that these clades share "seven mutually reinforcing derived mutations (five transitions and two transversions, " this alone would negates and forestalls any ideas about an Asia origin for any of the Y-DNA clades. I am sorry that I have not spent enough time meditating on this chart, even though you have posted it on many occasions. I now see that you have divined the actual meaning of this chart but you need to find the words to present its true meaning. Sadly, I have spent my time focusing on hg R, when I probably need to go back to hg A1. This is hard to do because it appears that you and I are the only ones at present that is finding to see the big picture.


You have attempted to begin a discussion of macrohaplohgroup CT on many occasions and I have touched on the subject but it is taking me a long time to see the big picture. But Through your work I am beginning to see why geneticist downplayed the finding of hg DE in Africa for many years, while they tried to promote an Asian origin for hg DE, even though the highest frequency for DE was found mainly in Africa.

I know I have not commented on your thread about the Aterian period. But looking at this chart I am beginning to visualize how this chart and the Aterian period may fit together.
The major problem with seeing the big picture in relation to the spread and origin of Y-DNA is the Geno-Hamitic theory. This theory implies that anatomically modern humans originated in East Africa , instead of South Africa, where the oldest AMH remains have been found . Because you find many so-called “Eurasian” haplogroups in East Africa, the Geno-Hamitic theory, allows geneticists re-invent the mythical Hamites as a “Black white” population that not only spread civilization but, received Eurasian genes via a back migration from Eurasians. Granted, there is no archaeological evidence supporting this theory, but it allows researchers at the Max Plank Institute and Harvard to continue to propagate the false idea that Europeans are a unique population descendant from the Neanderthals.

I have proposed that L3(M,N) was spread from South Africa to Senegal by AMH who were part of the Sangoan industry. The Sangoans used Mousterian tools. Using archaeogenetic evidence I was able to confirm that haplogroup L3(M,N) originated in Africa based on the presence of AF-24 in West Africa and South Africa. Moreover, the existence of the L3a(M) motif in the Senegambia characterized by the DdeI site np 10394 and AluI site np 10397 in haplotype AF24 (DQ112852) make a ‘back migration of M1 to Africa highly unlikely, because of the ancientness of this haplotype. The first amh to reach Senegal belonged to the Sangoan culture which spread from East Africa to West Africa probably between 100-80kya.

The presence of the AF-24 is a haplotype of haplogroup LOd makes it clear that this haplotype is not only an ancient human genome. It is also evidence that AF-24 probably did not originate in Asia, since AF-24 was found among the Senegalese and Khoisan.

This reflects an early migration from East and or South Africa to West Africa. The presence of basal nucleotides characteristic of macrohaplogroup L3(M) in West Africa and the reality that M1 does not descend from an Asian M macrohaplogroup because of the absence of AF24 in Asia (Sun et al, 2005) and its presence among the Khoisan and Senegalese suggest that expansion of M1 was probably from Africa to Eurasia. The existence of haplotype AF-24 and basal L3(M) lineage in East and West Africa suggest the probable existence of the Proto-M1 lineage in Africa, not Eurasia before haplogroup L3(M,N) carriers exited Africa.
I believe that Y-DNA was also early spread across Africa given the expansion of Africans to Crete, and Brazil 130kya. All we need to do is think about hg A1, and determine when and how it spread across Africa. The Sangoan culture is analogous to the Mousterian culture in Europe. This suggest contact between the Neanderthals and AMH. It may also explain the “Ghost” geneticists are finding during their research into ancient populations.

The finding of hg A in North Africa and South Africa deserve further research and may help us to understand the expansion of Y-DNA before the OoA exits 130kya and 60kya. These haplogroups were probably spread from South Africa to North Africa via the megaalakes that formerly existed in Africa.
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This map does not show paleo–Lake Makgadikgadi which was connected to Megacongo by rivers. In the Kalahari we find Sangoan tools.
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Ish Gebor
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Clyde, what was the first study done on Haplo R, or rather when was it first confirmed?

Second, when was it first discovered in Africa?

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