posted
Hey folks, I know it's been a while but I've been so busy with research as well as with work and social life. I've dropped by here and there to lurk and catch up with what is going on in this forum, but I should warn all of you...
You may have noticed that in the net the very papers which are presented and discussed have been misrepresented big time in many social media and news outlets. Namely the discovery of Graecopithecus and the Nature study on the Roman Era Fayum mummies.
First off, let me say that I have been following the so-called "alt-right" movement for a while now since before the start of the presidential race and unfortunately just as I and some others have predicted, it is being subverted and ultimately hijacked the same way the TEA Party was. The TEA Party was simply a movement against unfair taxation and government abuse and was started as a nonpartisan movement for all American taxpayers, however it was soon infiltrated and taken over by establishment Republicans, neo-cons and other Right-wing kooks. In simliar fashion the 'Alt-Right' or 'Alternative Right' began as a movement against the regressive far-left fascists and their neo-lib masters in governments and corporations which attempt to stifle free-speech and the free-exchange of ideas among individuals. Unfortunately I and others have notice the infiltration of this movement by white-nationalists and Eurocentric chauvinists. It's gotten to a point that they now misrepresent scientific findings in favor of thier racist views.
For example, how many times have any of you noticed the discovery of Graecopithecus being misrepresented as evidence that 'Modern Humans originated in Europe'? We all know that Graecopithecus is merely a newly discovered species of hominid and we have yet find out if this species was even of the same lineage that gave rise to Homo Sapiens, yet the findings are being spun to suggest that Homo Sapiens some how arose in Europe! This fallacy is being repeated in many of the alt-media and affiliated "red pill" websites and youtube meda outlets. This fallacy is even being repeated in certain talk radio outlets I have listent to! Now more recently, the findings of the Nature study on the Roman era Fayum mummies are being spun to suggest people of European descent founded Pharaonic Egypt even though non of the mummies tested were royals and again they date from Roman rule period! Yet this fallacy is being repeated by popular youtube sites and radio shows including ironically 'Info-Wars'.
Now, I have been informed by some net pals affiliated with webgroups like Redit, 4chan, Kek, etc. that they are doing their best to inform others of these fallacies however, it is much more difficult to correct misinformation that has already spread than it is to spread misinformation in the first place. For one thing most people are too lazy to read the actual sources themselves and only read the distorted headlines. Another thing is that according to my netpals, the white nationalists are literally infiltrating the alt-right newsites as researchers and source perveyors for the journalists of those sites.
Now I'm just one person, but I hope you guys could help by putting the word out to counter these falsities.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26237 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Unfortunately some of the blame for the misrepresentation of these studies has to do with that old adversary of quality science reporting, clickbait yellow journalism. Either the journalists are too incompetent to accurately translate the findings into language that laypeople can understand, or they're unscrupulous enough to deliberately distort them in the name of attracting readers. I believe this is going to be a problem as long as lazy and dishonest reporters continue to infest the field.
That said, the Abusir el-Meleq mummies weren't all Roman period. The vast majority of them were late dynastic (though there were about four from the New Kingdom), but these dated from the Third Intermediate through Ptolemaic to Roman periods. In fact, the paper claimed that there was continuity in mtDNA haplogroups between the pre-Ptolemaic and Roman period Egyptians.
I agree that a sample of earlier and/or more southerly Egyptian mummies would probably produce different (i.e. less Eurasian) results, but let's not misrepresent these studies the way the alt-righters might.
The study, published in Nature Communications, found that modern Egyptians share more ancestry with Sub-Saharan Africans than ancient Egyptians did. The data shows that modern Egyptians share approximately eight per cent more ancestry on the nuclear level with Sub-Saharan African populations than with ancient Egyptians.
Coauthor Wolfgang Haack, group leader at the Max Planck Institute, added: 'The genetics of the Abusir el-Meleq community did not undergo any major shifts during the 1,300 year timespan we studied, suggesting that the population remained genetically relatively unaffected by foreign conquest and rule.' using recent advances in modern genetics technology, the new study managed to extract accurate full-genome DNA data from three ancient Egyptian mummies, and usable segments of DNA from 90 mummies.
posted
By Djehuti: In simliar fashion the 'Alt-Right' or 'Alternative Right' began as a movement against the regressive far-left fascists and their neo-lib masters in governments and corporations which attempt to stifle free-speech and the free-exchange of ideas among individuals. Unfortunately I and others have notice the infiltration of this movement by white-nationalists and Eurocentric chauvinists. It's gotten to a point that they now misrepresent scientific findings in favor of thier racist views.
It was obvious from day one that the Alt Right was a racist movement, just like the Tea Party.
Posts: 288 | From: Asia | Registered: Mar 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Mansamusa: By Djehuti: In simliar fashion the 'Alt-Right' or 'Alternative Right' began as a movement against the regressive far-left fascists and their neo-lib masters in governments and corporations which attempt to stifle free-speech and the free-exchange of ideas among individuals. Unfortunately I and others have notice the infiltration of this movement by white-nationalists and Eurocentric chauvinists. It's gotten to a point that they now misrepresent scientific findings in favor of thier racist views.
It was obvious from day one that the Alt Right was a racist movement, just like the Tea Party.
There have been plenty of people across the political spectrum who have expressed irritation with so-called "Social Justice Warriors". I don't think these critics would all identify with the current "alt-right" movement though. As I understand it, the very phrase "alternative right" was coined by the white nationalist Richard Spencer. So it's always been associated with racism even if some non-racists also find SJWs obnoxious.
quote:Originally posted by Mansamusa: By Djehuti: In simliar fashion the 'Alt-Right' or 'Alternative Right' began as a movement against the regressive far-left fascists and their neo-lib masters in governments and corporations which attempt to stifle free-speech and the free-exchange of ideas among individuals. Unfortunately I and others have notice the infiltration of this movement by white-nationalists and Eurocentric chauvinists. It's gotten to a point that they now misrepresent scientific findings in favor of thier racist views.
It was obvious from day one that the Alt Right was a racist movement, just like the Tea Party.
There have been plenty of people across the political spectrum who have expressed irritation with so-called "Social Justice Warriors". I don't think these critics would all identify with the current "alt-right" movement though. As I understand it, the very phrase "alternative right" was coined by the white nationalist Richard Spencer. So while alt-righters may share with the general population a distaste for SJWs, I don't think any opposition to SJW ideology or tactics can be called alt-right.
Dude, don't drink the cool aid. The Alt Right are a bunch of racists who want to have the luxury of being racists without being called racists. A person would have to be very slow to the point of being semi-retarded to not be aware of the fact that the Alt Right are and has always been a bunch of Whiny, pathetic, White males complaining about Blacks, women and Muslims., challenging White supremacy. Their Asian, Indian, and other non-White allies are embarrassed at the idea of being associated with White supremacy so pretend as if they are not aware that the Alt Right is a White supremacist movement.
What is your idea of a sjw: someone who says that White thugs in uniform should be held accountable for the extrajuduicail murder of Black women , men or chikdren? Because as far as I am aware, the SJW label is normally used by racists complaining and whining that there are people who actually call for democratic accountability of cops who murder Black people.
Posts: 288 | From: Asia | Registered: Mar 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Mansamusa: By Djehuti: In simliar fashion the 'Alt-Right' or 'Alternative Right' began as a movement against the regressive far-left fascists and their neo-lib masters in governments and corporations which attempt to stifle free-speech and the free-exchange of ideas among individuals. Unfortunately I and others have notice the infiltration of this movement by white-nationalists and Eurocentric chauvinists. It's gotten to a point that they now misrepresent scientific findings in favor of thier racist views.
It was obvious from day one that the Alt Right was a racist movement, just like the Tea Party.
There have been plenty of people across the political spectrum who have expressed irritation with so-called "Social Justice Warriors". I don't think these critics would all identify with the current "alt-right" movement though. As I understand it, the very phrase "alternative right" was coined by the white nationalist Richard Spencer. So while alt-righters may share with the general population a distaste for SJWs, I don't think any opposition to SJW ideology or tactics can be called alt-right.
Dude, don't drink the cool aid. The Alt Right are a bunch of racists who want to have the luxury of being racists without being called racists. A person would have to be very slow to the point of being semi-retarded to not be aware of the fact that the Alt Right are and has always been a bunch of Whiny, pathetic, White males complaining about Blacks, women and Muslims., challenging White supremacy. Their Asian, Indian, and other non-White allies are embarrassed at the idea of being associated with White supremacy so pretend as if they are not aware that the Alt Right is a White supremacist movement.
What is your idea of a sjw: someone who says that White thugs in uniform should be held accountable for the extrajuduicail murder of Black women , men or chikdren? Because as far as I am aware, the SJW label is normally used by racists complaining and whining that there are people who actually call for democratic accountability of cops who murder Black people.
Of course, "alternative right" would have originally been intended as an euphemism for white supremacist ideology. But given that the "alt-right" dudes haven't actually changed their attitudes or behavior at all, no name change is going to provide sufficient cover for their toxicity. In the end "alt-right" will become as embarrassing a term for them as "white nationalist" or "white supremacist" because of the people who associate themselves with it.
As for "SJW", the term originally addressed certain activists in social justice movements who came across as oversensitive, overzealous, or just plain loony. And you know loony individuals exist in every movement, even those fighting for valid causes. However, it doesn't really describe a coherent ideology, and it is true that racists will accuse anyone who disagrees with them of being "SJWs" or "politically correct". It's one of those words which has been abused beyond meaning.
posted
I prefer to say that anthropology as practiced in Europe has always been designed to promote white supremacy and European colonial conquest. While they have made a lot of attempts to cover up this history and make it seem that they have changed, the reality is they have not. The studies you mentioned were published and worded the way they were in order to purposely provide the talking points required for these web sites to promote their nonsense. Popular history and popular archaeology are all built on the premise that everything important in human history came from Europe. And these "popular" forms of history are all told primarily for European audiences. Most documentaries on Egypt are not produced for Egyptians or Africans. They are produced for Europeans. Egyptians don't see this stuff unless they have satellite or cable TV. So, even when the facts say otherwise, these kinds of programs will always "spin" the data in order to put Europeans in the forefront of everything. The headlines of all the major articles concerning the Abu el-Melek mummies all say basically the same thing, which is that the AE were all "Eurasian". That goes beyond some fringe "alternative" agenda.
Face facts, most of the reason for Europeans controlling so much of the discussion of world history is war and conquest. We all know the saying to the victors go the spoils and this is no different. The knowledge of ancient Egypt came from an invasion of the country by Napoleon and a subsequent war with the British. Most of West Africa's historical knowledge sits in British museums because of conquest and this extends into SOuth Africa as well.. Same thing goes for the Pacific and Asian history being in French and British museums as well. And much of the history of Greece and the Levant came as a result of the two World Wars. THe history of Iraq, Syria and North Africa is being looted as a result of the Gulf Wars and the follow on Arab spring and war on Isis. Don't be fooled, this is all part of the campaign to control history. And this has always been part of the European paradigm of global conquest from the very beginning.
The alt right and white nationalists however, have always been the ones trying to pretend that "white nationalism" is benign and different from white supremacy and global European conquest. It is one and the same thing. Without white global conquest there would be no "white nationalism" in lands stolen from native people. They go hand in hand. Just like the guns went into the hands of the settlers to defend the lands they stole from the natives. That is "white nationalism" and it is purely the rank and file grass roots defense of European global conquest.
And with global conquest comes global control of information and history. So spinning history in order to make it seem like Europeans have always dominated the planet is simply a logical act of propaganda in support of European global domination, this form of disinformation warfare has been part of European conquest since the beginning. Unfortunately the only ones fooled by this are the non Europeans.
How the various collections of Egyptology got their start:
Glencairn Museum
quote: The Egyptian collection at Glencairn Museum, established in 1878, was assembled primarily by four men: the Reverend William Henry Benade (a Christian pastor, and later a bishop), John Pitcairn and his son Raymond (industrialists and philanthropists), and Rodolfo Vittorio Lanzone (an Italian Egyptologist and collector of antiquities). Benade and Pitcairn had earlier been instrumental in founding the Academy of the New Church, then located on Cherry Street in Philadelphia. Benade and Pitcairn were not present to witness the long-anticipated opening of the Academy in September of 1877, as the previous June they had boarded the White Star Liner Germanic, bound for an extended tour of Europe, Egypt and the Holy Land. Benade would later reflect on their three-month Egyptian excursion in a letter home to a member of the Academy:
The Department of Egyptian Art was established in 1906 to oversee the Museum's already sizable collection of art from ancient Egypt. The collection had been growing since 1874 thanks to individual gifts from benefactors and acquisition of private collections (such as the Drexel Collection in 1889, the Farman Collection in 1904, and the Ward Collection in 1905), as well as through yearly subscriptions, from 1895 onward, to the Egypt Exploration Fund, a British organization that conducted archaeological excavations in Egypt and donated a share of its finds to subscribing institutions.
Also in 1906, the Museum's Board of Trustees voted to establish an Egyptian Expedition to conduct archaeological excavations at several sites along the Nile. Instrumental in this decision was J. Pierpont Morgan, the Museum's president, who visited the expedition periodically until his death in 1913. At the time, the Egyptian government (through the Egyptian Antiquities Service) was granting foreign institutions the right to excavate with the understanding that the resulting finds would be divided evenly between the excavators and the Egyptian Museum in Cairo. The Met was granted concessions for the Middle Kingdom royal cemeteries of Lisht; the Late Dynastic Period temple of Hibis at Kharga Oasis in the western desert; the New Kingdom royal palace at Malqata; and the Middle and New Kingdom cemeteries and temples of Deir el-Bahri in the Theban necropolis opposite modern Luxor. The Egyptian Antiquities Service subsequently granted access to other sites as well, among them the important Predynastic cemetery of Hierakonpolis in southern Egypt.
Between 1906 and 1935, The Met's Egyptian Expedition conducted 14 seasons of excavations at Lisht. The site includes the Middle Kingdom pyramid complexes of Amenemhat I, the first king of Dynasty 12, and of his son, Senwosret I; a cemetery of officials from Dynasties 12 and 13; and an important Middle Kingdom settlement site. The early excavation teams were led by noted American Egyptologist Albert M. Lythgoe, the first curator of the Department of Egyptian Art. Lythgoe was assisted by his American colleague, Ambrose Lansing, and by Arthur C. Mace, a British Egyptologist. Also at Lisht was Herbert E. Winlock, a young American who was just beginning his career in Egyptology. Among the most important finds from the site are a ritual figure of wood (ca. 1929–1878 B.C.), one of a pair, the second of which is in Cairo; and burial equipment from the tomb of the Lady Senebtisi. It was while working with Mace in this tomb that Winlock developed the careful archaeological methods that made him one of the greatest excavators in the field of Egyptology.
But even as the Egyptians rejected the Rockefellers, they handed over the study of Egyptian history to the French in the founding of the Egyptian Museum in Cairo:
quote: The Egyptian Museum, Cairo
The involvement of Egyptians in establishing an antiquities museum in Egypt dates back to the period of development of the antiquities museum in Europe between the 1780s and 1830s, with the conversion of the royal palace in Paris, the Louvre, into a museum, and the reconstruction of the British Museum in London as a building devoted substantially to antiquities. The early nineteenth century AD scholar al-Jabarti commented on the collecting activities of Europeans in 1817, but this was before European states had agreed to acquire large collections of Egyptian antiquities (Reid 2002: 39-40). Within a generation, the AD 1835 15 August decree by Mohamed Ali, inspired by Rifaa al-Tahtawi, included the following observation:
'It is well-known that Europeans have buildings for keeping antiquities - stones covered with paintings and inscriptions, and other such objects are carefully preserved there and show to the inhabitants of the country, as well as to travellers... Such institutions bring great renoun to the countries that have them.' (from Reid 2002: 55-56)
The decree envisaged a Museum in Cairo to house the finds of Egyptian antiquities inspectors, under the supervision of Yusuf Diya Effendi. Sadly, when the European scholar Richard Lepsius arrived from Berlin in 1842, Mohamed Ali told him that the project had not succeeded. However a collection had been begun, and there was a second antiquities collection, comprising finds from Luxor excavations, on display in one of the palaces of Ibrahim Pasha, son of Mohamed Ali.
In the reign of the next governor, Abbas I (ruled 1848-1854), official inspections are recorded for Upper Egypt and the Cairo area. The location and scope of the collection of antiquities seem not to be recorded in European sources: on one account it was moved to the School of Engineering in Boulaq in 1849, but another account has it moved to the Cairo citadel from a palace in the Ezbekiya quarter of Cairo in 1851. As recurrently in all museum histories, the government did not always respect the integrity of the collection; it seems that Abbas I presented part of the collection to Sultan Abd al-Aziz, and that his successor Said presented the remainder to Archduke Maximilian of Austria in 1855.
These collecting and inspecting activities from 1835 to the 1850s form the background to the decision of Said (1854-1863) and Ismail Pasha (ruled 1863-1879) to support Auguste Mariette from France as head of a refounded Maslahat Antiqat (or Maslahat al-Athar) 'Antiquities Service' in 1858. On 1 June Mariette became mamur al-antiqat 'director of antiquities' on an Egyptian government annual salary of Ł720. The same month provides the first entry in the register for the refounded Museum. Following, consciously or not, in the footsteps of Yusuf Diya Effendi, Mariette employed foremen at key sites from Aswan to Gizeh, to clear out large monuments and send the sculpture finds to Cairo. There are limited European-language sources for Egyptian participation in and view of this period of the Antiquities Service and the Egyptian Museum, Cairo; archival material such as the lists of Egyptian foremen and workers on foreign excavations could help to fill this gap, but the story can probably only be written from publications and archives in Arabic and Turkish (until the mid-19th century the language of government in Egypt).
The expanding collection was moved in 1902 to a new building on Tahrir Square, where it remains today, an incomparable treasure house for Egyptian antiquities.
The key Egyptian Egyptologist of the late nineteenth and early twentieth century is Ahmed Kamal (1851-1923), who succeeded in his scientific career despite the French directorship of the Antiquities Service, down to the 1952 revolution, and the British military occupation of Egypt from 1882 to independence in 1922 and to a greater or lesser extent thereafter until the 1952 revolution. With the arrival of Gamal Abd al-Nasser in 1952, all leading positions were transferred from Europeans to Egyptians.
Keep in mind that the Rockefellers have one of the largest collections of Egyptian antiquities and they founded/financed the Oriental institute:
quote: Institute
History of the Oriental Institute Directors of the Oriental Institute Mission & Priorities The Oriental Institute Museum The Research Archives of the Oriental Institute Identity Guideline What's New Internships And Jobs
The Foundation of the Institute
The University of Chicago has been a center of ancient Near Eastern studies ever since its founding in 1891. The first president of the university, William Rainey Harper, was a Professor of Semitic Languages and his brother, Robert Francis, was an Assyriologist. Both taught in the Department of Semitic Languages at the new university. In 1896, the Department moved into the Haskell Oriental Museum where galleries devoted to the ancient Near East were established. Initially the collection was composed of a few plaster-cast reproductions and a small group of exhibition cases containing the little collection of antiquities. However, the collection grew rapidly as a result of both private donations and the university’s contributions to British field expeditions working in Egypt. In 1904, the University of Chicago Oriental Exploration Fund sent its first field expedition to Bismaya in Iraq. Two years later, an ambitious photographic and epigraphic survey of the temples in Nubia and Egypt was undertaken as a part of an overall project to publish all the ancient inscriptions in the Nile Valley. James Henry Breasted: Founder
James Henry Breasted, the first American to receive a PhD in Egyptology, was appointed by President Harper to fill the first teaching position in Egyptian studies in the United States. Breasted was among the earliest to champion the role that the ancient Near East played in the rise of western civilization. He envisioned the establishment of a special institute devoted to tracing ancient man’s “progress” toward civilization, long before the classical civilizations of Greece and Rome. Breasted received support and encouragement from John D. Rockefeller, Jr. who, in 1919, funded The Oriental Institute as a laboratory for the study of the rise and development of ancient civilization. In 1931, through the generous financial support of John D. Rockefeller, Jr., the Oriental Institute moved into new permanent headquarters that housed laboratories, museum galleries, libraries and offices for the scientific and teaching staff. Today, this building continues to function as an internationally renowned center of ancient Near Eastern studies. Over 60,000 people visit the museum galleries each year, and hundreds of scholars come to consult the faculty and research collections.
And lets be honest. The best and most prized artifacts from Egypt and many other places are still in private collections or special vaults off limits to the public eye.
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posted
So what can be done? the Europeans have a large majority and they are going to be protecting their own interests.
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Mansamusa: By Djehuti: In simliar fashion the 'Alt-Right' or 'Alternative Right' began as a movement against the regressive far-left fascists and their neo-lib masters in governments and corporations which attempt to stifle free-speech and the free-exchange of ideas among individuals. Unfortunately I and others have notice the infiltration of this movement by white-nationalists and Eurocentric chauvinists. It's gotten to a point that they now misrepresent scientific findings in favor of thier racist views.
It was obvious from day one that the Alt Right was a racist movement, just like the Tea Party.
This alt-right movement is to recruit young folks. Behind this are big-names, older folks who carry fascist ideas. They plan ahead 30 years from now. And this what we see right now is to shape this ideology. These older folks took it to dysgenics (the annihilation of non-whites).
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Mansamusa: By Djehuti: In simliar fashion the 'Alt-Right' or 'Alternative Right' began as a movement against the regressive far-left fascists and their neo-lib masters in governments and corporations which attempt to stifle free-speech and the free-exchange of ideas among individuals. Unfortunately I and others have notice the infiltration of this movement by white-nationalists and Eurocentric chauvinists. It's gotten to a point that they now misrepresent scientific findings in favor of thier racist views.
It was obvious from day one that the Alt Right was a racist movement, just like the Tea Party.
There have been plenty of people across the political spectrum who have expressed irritation with so-called "Social Justice Warriors". I don't think these critics would all identify with the current "alt-right" movement though. As I understand it, the very phrase "alternative right" was coined by the white nationalist Richard Spencer. So it's always been associated with racism even if some non-racists also find SJWs obnoxious.
I have been called a SJW many of these white posters probably assumed that I was a white posters who spoke up for blacks.
So no matter what I trew at them, DOJ reports, compilation reposts by several universities etc, it's thrown under the banner of SJW. As if being a social justice person is something wrong.
I dislike social unjust in any circumstance, so yeah when the black population is being marginalized I will speakout on that and address that.
From what I understand the phrase "alternative right was not coined by Richard Spencer. He is merely a poster child. And this poster child did advocate for a "white Egypt", an idea imbedded in: "March of the Titans: A History of the White Race".
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: So what can be done? the Europeans have a large majority and they are going to be protecting their own interests.
What are your suggestions?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Very well, as we know Egyptology was born as a pseudoscience, supported by eugenicists.
On the particular study of Abusir.
quote: Samples and anthropological analysis
All 166 samples from 151 mummified individuals (for details of the 90 individuals included in the later analysis, see Supplementary Data 1) used in this study were taken from two anthropological collections at the University of Tübingen and the Felix von Luschan Skull Collection, which is now kept at the Museum of Prehistory of the Staatliche Museen zu Berlin, Stiftung preußischer Kulturbesitz (individuals: S3533, S3536, S3544, S3552, S3578, S3610). According to the radiocarbon dates (Supplementary Data 1, see also ref. 18), the samples can be grouped into three time periods: Pre-Ptolemaic (New Kingdom, Third Intermediate Period and Late Period), Ptolemaic and Roman Period.
During their conservation in the Tübingen and Berlin collections the remains underwent different treatments: some were preserved in their original mummified state, while others were macerated for anthropological analysis or due to conservation problems19.
Some of the remains (individuals analysed in our study: 1543, 1547, 1565, 1577, 1611) have traces of gold leaf near the mouth and the cheekbone, which is characteristic for mummies from the Ptolemaic Period onwards20.
—Verena J. Schuenemann
Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods
This begs for the question, who was Felix von Luschan and what was his Skull Collection.
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Let's assume that there were no fundamental flaws in this study and that the scientists involved truly intended to [and actually proceeded] on identifying indigenous Saharo-Sudanese and Nilo-Saharan ancestry in these mummies...
..Doesn't the near complete absense of African ancestry give credence to the conclusion that the Abusir mummies are a combination of Hyksos and other Levantine populations that conquered, dominated and settled the Delta and the Faiyum in large numbers at precisely the period from which these mummies are from?
To entertain or accept this conclusion, we would also have to explain how and why the Copts seem to so closely match the genetic profile of the Abusir mummies.
It seems very likely that the Copts are derivatives of Hyksos and other Levantine populations that mass migrated to Northern Egypt around the 12th dynasty.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: Let's assume that there were no fundamental flaws in this study and that the scientists involved truly intended to [and actually proceeded] on identifying indigenous Saharo-Sudanese and Nilo-Saharan ancestry in these mummies...
..Doesn't the near complete absense of African ancestry give credence to the conclusion that the Abusir mummies are a combination of Hyksos and other Levantine populations that conquered, dominated and settled the Delta and the Faiyum in large numbers at precisely the period from which these mummies are from?
To entertain or accept this conclusion, we would also have to explain how and why the Copts seem to so closely match the genetic profile of the Abusir mummies.
It seems very likely that the Copts are derivatives of Hyksos and other Levantine populations that mass migrated to Northern Egypt around the 12th dynasty.
This could very well be the case, however we don't know a thing about these mummies they have kept in "custody". There is no crania and post-crania metrical data, no tomb designation, nothing.
The most relevant tombs in Egypt are at the Vally of Kings, not at Abusir. So why did they prefer to analyze "Abusir remains"?
Nature writes:
Mummy DNA unravels ancient Egyptians’ ancestry Genetic analysis reveals a close relationship with Middle Easterners, not central Africans
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: Let's assume that there were no fundamental flaws in this study and that the scientists involved truly intended to [and actually proceeded] on identifying indigenous Saharo-Sudanese and Nilo-Saharan ancestry in these mummies...
..Doesn't the near complete absense of African ancestry give credence to the conclusion that the Abusir mummies are a combination of Hyksos and other Levantine populations that conquered, dominated and settled the Delta and the Faiyum in large numbers at precisely the period from which these mummies are from?
To entertain or accept this conclusion, we would also have to explain how and why the Copts seem to so closely match the genetic profile of the Abusir mummies.
It seems very likely that the Copts are derivatives of Hyksos and other Levantine populations that mass migrated to Northern Egypt around the 12th dynasty.
This could very well be the case, however we don't know a thing about these mummies they have kept in "custody". There is no crania and post-crania metrical data, no tomb designation, nothing.
The most relevant tombs in Egypt are at the Vally of Kings, not at Abusir. So why did they prefer to analyze "Abusir remains"?
Nature writes:
Mummy DNA unravels ancient Egyptians’ ancestry Genetic analysis reveals a close relationship with Middle Easterners, not central Africans
The lack of information makes it difficult to establish the identities of the Abusir mummies. The inexplicable failure to provide the Y-DNA profiles of all 90 mummies bridles any attempt to precisely determine who these people were.
I very much doubt that the Egyptian State will permit genetic testing on royals in the valley of the kings. These Abusir mummies were already in the keep of Westerners and that's probably why they used them.
The fact that Abusir was a Hyksos settlement should have tempered the conclusions of these scientists.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
^ I fully agree, and we have to study and understand this man Felix von Luschan, only then will we fully understand this "Abisir paper" and its place in history.
The fact the title emphasizes on "Sub-Saharans" being least indigenous and or related to ancient Egypt, according to "their" findings is much forth telling.
Yet, at least one of the samples is clearly African in origin, which has SNP's that can easily be found in the SSA region, specimen JK2888 and is very old in the region. However, this is probably what they clam as being recent in this supposed paper.
Here is a well put together summary of the derived alleles, which shows the JK2888 is Ptolemaic and is dated 97–2 0/1.
The other specimen is included as well and dates back to max, 769 BC.
Another point I like to make is how a Google search gives 13.500 results, showing this spread like wildfire. (a great move by the chief strategist)
Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote: In 1924, the American Museum of Natural History (AMNH) in New York acquired a large collection of both archaeological and documentary material that had belonged to Austrian medical doctor, anthropologist and collector Felix von Luschan. Colloquially termed "The von Luschan Collection", a large portion of this collection consisted of human skeletal remains. Of these remains there are currently 339 individuals designated to the "el-Hesa" sub-collection, which is mainly made up of cranial and associated postcranial elements.
Uncovered in 1907 at Cemetery 2 of el-Hesa, one of the islands of the first cataract of the Nile, this skeletal collection illustrates the difficulties of using osteological material coming from Nubia, at the edge of the Egyptian territory. In particular, physical anthropologists continue to use outdated chronologies when discussing the age of the collection. This review of the el-Hesa collection provides an updated historical context for the remains, including new evidence dating them from the Late Roman period to the beginning of the Christian era.
DOI:10.2458/azu_jaei_v06i1_harcourt-smith
—Vincent Francigny, Alex de Voogt, Joanna Kahn, William Harcourt-Smith
At the Border between Egypt and Nubia: Skeletal Material from El-Hesa Cemetery 2
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: ^ I fully agree, and we have to study and understand this man Felix von Luschan, only then will we fully understand this "Abisir paper" and it's place in history.
The fact the title emphasizes on "Sub-Saharans" being least indigenous and or related to ancient Egypt, according to "their" findings is much forth telling.
Yet, at least one of the samples is clearly African in origin, which has SNP's that can easily be found in the SSA region, specimen JK2888 and is very old in the region. However, this is probably what they clam as being recent in this supposed paper.
Here is a well put together summary of the derived alleles, which shows the JK2888 is Ptolemaic and is dated 97–2 0/1.
The other specimen is included as well and dates back to max, 769 BC.
Another point I like to make is how a Google search gives 13.500 results, showing this spread like wildfire. (a great move by the chief strategist)
Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods.
So, Blond/Red/Hair Blue Eyed Ancient Egyptians? I am not an expert in DNA/Alleles and hereditary so maybe someone can explain.
Below are derived allele counts and total numbers of reads for SNPs that have a large effect on phenotype for genomes from ancient Egypt. Nonzero derived allele counts are in bold. Note that small derived allele counts may be due to DNA damage.
EDAR, rs3827760, Mongoloid teeth, hair, etc.
Sample Period Date BC D/T JK2911 Pre-Ptolemaic 769–560 0/3 JK2888 Ptolemaic 97–2 0/1 IRF4, rs12203592, light hair and eyes, freckling
Sample Period Date BC D/T JK2911 Pre-Ptolemaic 769–560 0/1 KITLG, rs12821256, blond hair
Sample Period Date BC D/T JK2134 Pre-Ptolemaic 776–569 0/1 JK2911 Pre-Ptolemaic 769–560 0/2 MC1R, rs1110400, red hair
Sample Period Date BC D/T JK2911 Pre-Ptolemaic 769–560 0/3 JK2888 Ptolemaic 97–2 0/6 MC1R, rs11547464, red hair
Sample Period Date BC D/T JK2911 Pre-Ptolemaic 769–560 0/2 JK2888 Ptolemaic 97–2 0/3 MC1R, rs1805005, blond hair, fair skin
Sample Period Date BC D/T JK2888 Ptolemaic 97–2 0/1 MC1R, rs1805006, red hair, fair skin
Sample Period Date BC D/T JK2911 Pre-Ptolemaic 769–560 0/4 MC1R, rs1805007, red hair, fair skin
Sample Period Date BC D/T JK2911 Pre-Ptolemaic 769–560 1/4 JK2888 Ptolemaic 97–2 0/5 MC1R, rs1805008, red hair, fair skin
Sample Period Date BC D/T JK2911 Pre-Ptolemaic 769–560 0/3 JK2888 Ptolemaic 97–2 0/1 MC1R, rs1805009, red hair, fair skin
Sample Period Date BC D/T JK2911 Pre-Ptolemaic 769–560 0/3 JK2888 Ptolemaic 97–2 0/1 MCM6, rs4988235, ability to digest milk
Sample Period Date BC D/T JK2911 Pre-Ptolemaic 769–560 0/10 OCA2/HERC2, rs12913832, blue eyes
Sample Period Date BC D/T JK2911 Pre-Ptolemaic 769–560 0/2 SLC24A5, rs1426654, Caucasoid light skin
Sample Period Date BC D/T JK2911 Pre-Ptolemaic 769–560 2/2 JK2888 Ptolemaic 97–2 1/1 SLC45A2, rs16891982, Caucasoid light skin
Sample Period Date BC D/T JK2911 Pre-Ptolemaic 769–560 0/7 TYR, rs1042602, light skin, absence of freckles
Sample Period Date BC D/T JK2911 Pre-Ptolemaic 769–560 0/4 JK2888 Ptolemaic 97–2 1/1 TYR, rs1393350, blond hair, blue eyes
Sample Period Date BC D/T JK2911 Pre-Ptolemaic 769–560 0/2 JK2888 Ptolemaic 97–2 0/2
Posts: 165 | From: Miami Beach, Florida | Registered: Jun 2017
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The fact that you understand that this are alleles tells that you understand more than the acclaimed.
Anyhow, it is difficult to make suggest on the specimen because we know nothing about the specimen, other than what was given here. I mean we literally know nothing about these remains. I wonder what physical-anthropologists are thinking right now, about this?
For all we know it could be indigenous, or foreign.
For now I think it is more important to understand the findings by Von Luschan.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
DNA is not my field of expertise, I read to keep a basic understanding and try to stay abreast of current news.
My basic question is, since I see recurrent numbers how many different individuals are represented?
The time period is interesting on Pre Ptolemaic The 25th dynasty was a line of rulers originating in the Nubian Kingdom of Kush – in present-day northern Sudan and southern Egypt – and most saw Napata as their spiritual homeland. They reigned in part or all of Ancient Egypt from 760–656 BCPosts: 165 | From: Miami Beach, Florida | Registered: Jun 2017
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quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025: DNA is not my field of expertise, I read to keep a basic understanding and try to stay abreast of current news.
My basic question is, since I see recurrent numbers how many different individuals are represented?
The time period is interesting on Pre Ptolemaic The 25th dynasty was a line of rulers originating in the Nubian Kingdom of Kush – in present-day northern Sudan and southern Egypt – and most saw Napata as their spiritual homeland. They reigned in part or all of Ancient Egypt from 760–656 BC
You yourself posted on this. It's about 3 specimen. The oldest is dated 769 BC, yet ancient Egypt goes back 5 thousand years and millennia before that deeper in the South. The specimen are claimed to be from Abusir, which is located right under Lower west-Egypt.
JK2911
JK2888
JK2134
I suggest you read more on this page:
quote:At the bottom of this post is a plot for a K = 14 admixture analysis that includes three genomes from ancient Egypt. The table above the plot gives some information for these samples.
The brown and black Negroid components are completely absent in the two Pre-Ptolemaic samples, while the Ptolemaic sample is 1.99% Negroid. This contrasts with the modern Egyptian samples, which are on average 10.93% Negroid.
ARCHAEOLOGY. Relief with hieroglyphs at the entrance to the tomb of Amon Pen (Dynasty XIX), Abusir Necropolis, Egypt. Egyptian civilisation, New Kingdom, Dynasty XIX. Full credit: De Agostini / S. Vannini / Granger, NYC
For now I am more interested in the Felix von Luschan Skull Collection. And for the black readers, you have to understand that the average white person is not responsible for these things.
quote: 3. IMPERIALIST ARCHAEOLOGY IN THE CANARY ISLANDS AND THE STUDIES ON PREHISTORIC COLONIZATION
The leading geostrategic role of the Archipelago itself in relation to the colonial partitioning of Africa by Europe, specially just after the Berlin Conference (1884-1885), is a factor that has to be taken into account when analysing the different approaches to the colonization of the islands developed at the time, since it was the motley framework of annexationist and imperialist interests that eventually made the islands an enclave coveted by certain European nations, specially by France and Germany, as we have already pointed out. The German and French presence in West Africa, next to the Canaries, turned the Archipelago into a geostrategic enclave, economically valuable (Farrujia 2005).
It was this set of circumstances that would, in fact, favour the development within the islands of an imperialist archaeology, with clear racist leanings, in which some foreign authors engaged in Canarian studies were involved. This was the case with the French authors Jean-Baptiste Bory de Saint-Vincent, Sabin Berthelot, Cesar Faidherbe and René Verneau and the German authors Franz von Löher, Hans Meyer and Felix von Luschan.
3.3. The Aryan hypothesis
Contrary to the French authors, German scholars argued for an Aryan presence in the Canary Islands, and therefore an ancient link between Germany and the Archipelago. Franz von Löher (1990 [1876]) insisted on the presence of Vandals in the islands (6th century) partly on the basis of archaeological evidence (stone huts), but mainly through philological arguments (considering the Guanche or indigenous language as a German dialect). The source he used as a basis for his description of the Germanic people and their comparison with the Guanches was De origine et situ Germanorum by Cornelius Tacitus, in which the Latin author explained the customs in the Germanic towns at the time of the Varian disaster. In relation to this text, it should be remembered that German academic tradition had in fact built its national identity around the Germanic tribes, on the basis of classic texts such as the one by this Latin author.
Other German authors, such as Hans Meyer (1896) and Felix von Luschan (1896) also argued for Aryan invasions, but from an anthropological point of view. According to them, the Armenian type, associated with Indo-Europeans (and therefore Aryans) was considered to be related to the indigenous Canarian people. In connection with the proposed relationship to the Armenian type, it is necessary to point out that the studies of Meyer and Luschan had in fact been developed at the same time as the rise of Germany in Egypt and Mesopotamia since, on the eve of the First World War, the Ottoman empire had become a political and economic arena of the first order. In fact, Luschan end up arguing, after developing his studies on the anthropological materials obtained from the campaigns in the Near East, that the first residents of Mesopotamia and Anatolia had been a brachycephalic Armenian type, with the Mediterranean dolichocephalics arriving after them. This justified the predominance of the Aryan presence in the territories of the Near East, and consequently legitimised the German right to occupy them3.
3 In the case of the Canary Islands, Luschan did not held this view explicitly. Nevertheless, do bear in mind that he was a firm patriot, nationalist and imperialist who supported the need for a German overseas empire and defended the utility of imperialist competition. This was why he adopted a pro-belligerent position when defending the imperialist interests of Germany in Africa (Zimmerman 2001: 46), and why he defended the Aryan presence in the Canary Islands. In the case of Franz von Löher the imperialist ambitions were held explicitly, because as he wrote in the foreword to his book (Löher 1876: 4), if the Guanches were German, they should be liberated sooner or later.
4.4. The German incidence
German imperialist archaeology had hardly any influence on the Canarian authors. Several factors influenced this situation: the language barrier, since hardly any Canarian intellectuals spoke German4, the absence lack of any links between German and Canarian academic circles, the contacts established between Canarian and French scholars and the early relationship established between the Guanches and the Cro-Magnon type and, consequently, with the French prehistoric environment. Therefore, the theoretical and methodological guidelines developed in German archaeology and anthropology did not have such a profound effect on the Canarian academic world, which was more open and receptive to the French scientific world. The works of authors like Franz von Löher, Hans Meyer or Felix von Luschan on the Canaries were therefore unknown to most Canarian academics. Only some authors from the Islands referred to them, but without developing a critical reading of their works, an aspect doubtless influenced by a lack of knowledge of the German language5.
—José Farrujia de la Rosa
Waiving the ancestors voices? Archaeology, politics and identity in the Canary Islands at the end of the 19th century
quote:E-M78 represents 74.5% of haplogroup E, the highest frequencies observed in Masalit and Fur populations. E-M33 (5.2%) is largely confined to Fulani and Hausa, whereas E-M2 is restricted to Hausa. E-M215 was found to occur more in Nilo-Saharan rather than Afro-Asiatic speaking groups.
--Hassan HY1, Underhill PA, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Ibrahim ME.
Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History
Am J Phys Anthropol. 2008 Nov;137(3):316-23. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.20876.
You can look up pics of these paternal carries of E1b1b. I am not going to spam the forum. Irony is that the remaining major clade is the A3b2 lineage, which is extremely old and obviously has reduced / diverted overtime.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Andromeda2025: So, Blond/Red/Hair Blue Eyed Ancient Egyptians? I am not an expert in DNA/Alleles and hereditary so maybe someone can explain.
The first number (D) is the number of reads that show the derived allele, the second number (T) is the total number of reads. The derived allele is the one that is associated with the trait in question (lighter skin, blue eyes, red hair, etc in this case). As you can see in most cases there are few reads (the genomes have poor coverage) and zero of the derived allele, so NOT blue-eyed or blond- or red-haired.
JK2911 has 1/4 for a variant associated with red hair. It could be that he was heterozygous for this (1 copy derived and 1 ancestral), but it could be a false positive caused by DNA damage or sequencing error, which is not unusual. Likewise JK2888 has another light skin variant but with only 1 read, so we can't tell how common it was or whether it is also a false positive.
We can see 2/2 and 1/1 for derived SLC24A5, an important light skin variant, which is common today even in some quite dark-skinned populations like Ethiopians and Indians, so likely they had this one. On the other hand JK2911 has 0/7 derived SLC45A2, another light skin variant which is ubiquitous in modern Europeans and common in the Middle East and North Africa but rare or absent in dark-skinned people. Modern Delta Egyptians have something like 60% of the light skin allele of SLC45A2 while Southern Egyptians have a much lower frequency.
Posts: 660 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2017
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quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: The inexplicable failure to provide the Y-DNA profiles of all 90 mummies bridles any attempt to precisely determine who these people were.
There is only 1 copy of the Y chromosome per cell but hundreds of copies of mitochondrial chromosome, so mtDNA is much easier to recover from ancient remains. If they can't get meaningful autosomal data they can't get Y haplogroups either.
Probably they were hoping to get autosomal and Y data from a lot more of the mummies, so much being based on mtDNA weakens the results. Well, I guess we'll just have to wait for the next study.
Posts: 660 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2017
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ARCHAEOLOGY. Relief with hieroglyphs at the entrance to the tomb of Amon Pen (Dynasty XIX), Abusir Necropolis, Egypt. Egyptian civilisation, New Kingdom, Dynasty XIX. Full credit: De Agostini / S. Vannini / Granger, NYC
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: The inexplicable failure to provide the Y-DNA profiles of all 90 mummies bridles any attempt to precisely determine who these people were.
There is only 1 copy of the Y chromosome per cell but hundreds of copies of mitochondrial chromosome, so mtDNA is much easier to recover from ancient remains. If they can't get meaningful autosomal data they can't get Y haplogroups either.
Probably they were hoping to get autosomal and Y data from a lot more of the mummies, so much being based on mtDNA weakens the results. Well, I guess we'll just have to wait for the next study.
As a comparison many Berbers have Eurasian mtDNA but their Y-DNA is often E-M81
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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ARCHAEOLOGY. Relief with hieroglyphs at the entrance to the tomb of Amon Pen (Dynasty XIX), Abusir Necropolis, Egypt. Egyptian civilisation, New Kingdom, Dynasty XIX. Full credit: De Agostini / S. Vannini / Granger, NYC
^^ That's a different site
I didn't ask you anything here. But here you are to popup, so called debunking? See, since they claimed that the remains represent ancient Egypt all over, my post on Abusir should not make no difference, right? So why does it now?
See, I already posted on here about Abusir el-Malek:
The ancient settlement of Abusir el-Malek sat on a small rise in the fertile floodplain between the Faiyum and the Nile. By 1500 B.C., it was a prosperous settlement with many temples and a vast burial ground and buildings stretching across a large area. Excavations in the early twentieth century revealed burials centered on a cult honoring Osiris, the Egyptian god of the afterlife. The earliest evidence of occupation at the site dates from around 3000 B.C., with the majority of burials beginning 1,500 years later. The cemetery continued to be used for centuries, with the earlier shaft tombs being filled with later burials from the Greek, Roman, and Islamic periods. Thousands of individuals were buried at the site over hundreds of years of use.
Archaeological exploration of Abusir el-Malek in the early twentieth century resulted in many artifacts being placed in museums around the world, bringing attention to the importance of the site and its history. Site work continued in the 1970s, emphasizing again the valuable information being gained from documenting Abusir el-Malek. Following the Arab Spring in 2011, when policing archaeological sites became more difficult, there was a tremendous surge in looting of heritage sites in the region. Abusir el-Malek is one of the archaeological sites that has been particularly heavily looted. The continuing destruction of sites in search of saleable antiquities has resulted in the loss of scientific evidence, artifacts, and understanding of the stratigraphy of archaeological ruins at thousands of ancient sites like Abusir el-Malek. Sadly this situation is not unique in Egypt, or elsewhere in the world. Times of crisis—poverty, conflict, or political turmoil—stretch the protection of our past, often to breaking point.
Placing Abusir el-Malek on the 2016 World Monuments Watch cannot repair the damage to the site, but it can potentially raise awareness about looting and highlight efforts worldwide to stem the tide of illicit trafficking of archaeological objects. Developing alternative sources of income for local communities and incentives for protecting heritage sites, coupled with enforcement of local, national, and international cultural property laws, is a vital challenge.
What is more important here is the way the "collection" was gathered and the alleged hypothesis by Felix von Luschan.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: The inexplicable failure to provide the Y-DNA profiles of all 90 mummies bridles any attempt to precisely determine who these people were.
There is only 1 copy of the Y chromosome per cell but hundreds of copies of mitochondrial chromosome, so mtDNA is much easier to recover from ancient remains. If they can't get meaningful autosomal data they can't get Y haplogroups either.
Probably they were hoping to get autosomal and Y data from a lot more of the mummies, so much being based on mtDNA weakens the results. Well, I guess we'll just have to wait for the next study.
How did they recover E-V22?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: The inexplicable failure to provide the Y-DNA profiles of all 90 mummies bridles any attempt to precisely determine who these people were.
There is only 1 copy of the Y chromosome per cell but hundreds of copies of mitochondrial chromosome, so mtDNA is much easier to recover from ancient remains. If they can't get meaningful autosomal data they can't get Y haplogroups either.
Probably they were hoping to get autosomal and Y data from a lot more of the mummies, so much being based on mtDNA weakens the results. Well, I guess we'll just have to wait for the next study.
Theres going to be another study?
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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posted
How didn't the researchers see this was gonna happen... I've been clinching my cheeks since I read the abstract cuz I knew these dudes would spin this shit. It's only a matter of time before we get a small segment on a popular/major news broadcasting talking about how European the ancient Egyptians were... Smh, it really is king tut R1b part 2.
I feel bad lol, welp...
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: How didn't the researchers see this was gonna happen... I've been clinching my cheeks since I read the abstract cuz I knew these dudes would spin this shit. It's only a matter of time before we get a small segment on a popular/major news broadcasting talking about how European the ancient Egyptians were... Smh, it really is king tut R1b part 2.
I feel bad lol, welp...
I hate conspiracy theories but I think these journalist are apart of some conspiracy. We all forget the recent outrage with the white washing of these Egyptian movies.
I believe the journalist purposely twisting the study was meant to stomp out those outrage.
But notice DNA Tribes/JAMA of Amarna Mummies and especially King Ramses III E1b1a was completely limited to internet forums outside of their obvious original sources.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: The inexplicable failure to provide the Y-DNA profiles of all 90 mummies bridles any attempt to precisely determine who these people were.
There is only 1 copy of the Y chromosome per cell but hundreds of copies of mitochondrial chromosome, so mtDNA is much easier to recover from ancient remains. If they can't get meaningful autosomal data they can't get Y haplogroups either.
Probably they were hoping to get autosomal and Y data from a lot more of the mummies, so much being based on mtDNA weakens the results. Well, I guess we'll just have to wait for the next study.
Theres going to be another study?
quote:Originally posted by capra: I sure hope so! But I don't know about one, I'm just assuming. Sorry.
There need to be other studies, but not done by the nutty Max Planck, who impose a Greek-Roman mythical demigoddesses of actical & strategic warfare.
quote: Minerva (/mɪˈnɜːr.və/; Latin: [mɪˈnɛr.wa]; Etruscan: Menrva) was the Roman goddess of wisdom and strategic warfare, and the sponsor of arts, trade, and strategy. She was born from the head of Jupiter, fully armed and clad in armor.[1] After impregnating the titaness Metis, Jupiter recalled a prophecy that his own child would overthrow him.
Wikipedia documentation on the Max Planck Society:
quote:The Max Planck Society for the Advancement of Science (German: Max-Planck-Gesellschaft zur Förderung der Wissenschaften e. V.; abbreviated MPG) is a formally independent non-governmental and non-profit association of German research institutes founded in 1911 as the Kaiser Wilhelm Society[1][3] and renamed the Max Planck Society in 1948 in honor of its former president, theoretical physicist Max Planck. The society is funded by the federal and state governments of Germany as well as other sources.[2][1]
quote:The Kaiser Wilhelm Society for the Advancement of Science (German Kaiser-Wilhelm-Gesellschaft zur Förderung der Wissenschaften) was a German scientific institution established in the German Kaiserreich in 1911. During the Third Reich it was involved in Nazi scientific operations, and after the Second World War concluded, its functions were taken over by the Max Planck Society.
The Kaiser Wilhelm Society was an umbrella organisation for many institutes, testing stations, and research units created under its authority.
posted
It's always seemed very clear to me that the goals of the Human Gnome project does not include anthropological population research as it's primary, secondary or even triterary list of objectives. Which is why all these presented research studies always have huge missing gaps of sample and verification data.
The main goal of Human Gnome is MEDICAL, and it's interesting how the genetic medical conclusions most always drastically differ from those of genetic anthropology conclusions.
As an engineer, there is absolutely no way for me to justify using unverifiable third party test data obtained outside of my project and expect to achieve success in my program objectives without performing first hand test & validation of this test data. So, it's really unthinkable to me how genetics used for anthropology could be any different, expecting to achieve conclusive results using questionable almost certain abbreviated data that is neither fully understood or verifiable.
First, one has to understand the rules to play the game, and second, if you play the game where the rules are stacked like Vegas, then you can always expect to lose in the majority of plays.
Perhaps, this is the kill two birds with one stone tactic, where you gain the genetic pattern data required for PRIMARY medical objectives, and then release partial subsets of this data to paint a false population picture, useful for general mass media consumption. That does fit the historic pseudoscience M.O.
-------------------- Selenium gives real life and true reality Posts: 4693 | From: Saturn | Registered: Apr 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Narmerthoth: Where is the new news here?
Looks like the same ole repackaged and distributed pseudoscience to me.
It indeed is.
So what we have thus far:
A racist man named Felix von Luschan who used terror and collected human remains from indigenous people. This is called the Felix von Luschan Skull Collection. And we have a institution with an extremely horrendous Nazi history. An institute which managed to maskout given data, either by modern day populations (called ghost populations) or supposed Neanderthal-DNA, which supposedly was not found in Africans but anybody else, which later was debunked by other scientists in the field.
So, what are we dealing with here?
quote:Max Planck Society admits to its predecessor's Nazi links
Alison Abbott
Hubert Markl, president of the Max Planck Society (MPS), has accepted that the management and staff of its predecessor society were involved in Nazi war atrocities, and has apologized to their victims.His statement was in response to the findings of a group of science historians he commissioned in 1999 to investigate the role played by basic researchers of the Kaiser Wilhelm Society during the Second World War.
What he claims is as real as the "pizza gate hype". The nutjob even claims that these mummies came directly from Egypt as being tested, instead of being in some obscure skull collection somewhere in the west. Well, at least he did something great, that is by showing CNN, where CNN mentioned the University of Tuebingen, which skipped on me before.
Now look at them rightwingers go nuts in the thread, insulting Africans. Looks very Nazi-like to me. Is all of this coincidence? Nah, this debacle was placed by the supposed "chief strategist", also known as a rightwinger.
Ancient upper Egyptian couples:
Modern upper Egyptian, North Sudani couples:
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: How didn't the researchers see this was gonna happen... I've been clinching my cheeks since I read the abstract cuz I knew these dudes would spin this shit. It's only a matter of time before we get a small segment on a popular/major news broadcasting talking about how European the ancient Egyptians were... Smh, it really is king tut R1b part 2.
I feel bad lol, welp...
I hate conspiracy theories but I think these journalist are apart of some conspiracy. We all forget the recent outrage with the white washing of these Egyptian movies.
I believe the journalist purposely twisting the study was meant to stomp out those outrage.
But notice DNA Tribes/JAMA of Amarna Mummies and especially King Ramses III E1b1a was completely limited to internet forums outside of their obvious original sources.
Yep, that is why I searched for the hits on both. Logically the JAMA publication didn't go viral in mainstream media. JAMA has 26.000 hits, but it's been at a time estimate of seven years.
I told people not to sleep on it. I knew this debacle we have here would happen, when this "Amun ra the ultimate" individual made those weird claims, with those weird genetic splits.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Narmerthoth: Where is the new news here?
Looks like the same ole repackaged and distributed pseudoscience to me.
It indeed is.
So what we have thus far:
A racist man named Felix von Luschan who used terror and collected human remains from indigenous people. This is called the Felix von Luschan Skull Collection. And we have a institution with an extremely horrendous Nazi history. An institute which managed to maskout given data, either by modern day populations (called ghost populations) or supposed Neanderthal-DNA, which was not found in Africans but anybody else, which later was debunked by other scientists in the field.
So, what are we dealing with here?
quote:Max Planck Society admits to its predecessor's Nazi links
Alison Abbott
Hubert Markl, president of the Max Planck Society (MPS), has accepted that the management and staff of its predecessor society were involved in Nazi war atrocities, and has apologized to their victims.His statement was in response to the findings of a group of science historians he commissioned in 1999 to investigate the role played by basic researchers of the Kaiser Wilhelm Society during the Second World War.
Not surprising, most all of these European and US institutions have similar histories. However, besides that, I am speaking of the glaring disconnects between the genetics medical communities and historic population geneics communities, and how they each reference and classify these various defects.
As we see here and in xyzman's recent thread, they are being described as if they are the result of natural selection, and all of the OCA stages are being presented as "normal" genes. But when you review the primary Gnome research objective, Medical, they are described thusly;
An anomaly occurring at this stage is responsible for oculocutaneous albinism (OCA) types 1–4. OCAs are now considered to be diseases affecting the intracellular transport of tyrosinase rather than impaired catalytic functions of melanogenesis enzymes. Indeed, even minor mutations of TYR or TYRP1 induce the same clinical phenotype as mutations responsible for the loss of protein function. All muteins are indeed recognized as abnormal by the quality control system of the endoplasmic reticulum, and are then directed to the proteasome to be degraded [14, 15]
The above descriptions are consistent in genetic medical research, and OCA is ALWAYS described as an undesirable autosomal disease. That being true, you can deduce what the primary objective of Human Gnome medical research is; Cure/Reversal Genetics Research.
So, the difference is clear and there is no doubt the objectives of Human Gnome medical research, which presents data more honestly, is quite different then the objectives and how the same data is being used for Anthropology, which is far less honest in it's descriptions and true objectives.
quote:Originally posted by Narmerthoth: Where is the new news here?
Looks like the same ole repackaged and distributed pseudoscience to me.
It indeed is.
So what we have thus far:
A racist man named Felix von Luschan who used terror and collected human remains from indigenous people. This is called the Felix von Luschan Skull Collection. And we have a institution with an extremely horrendous Nazi history. An institute which managed to maskout given data, either by modern day populations (called ghost populations) or supposed Neanderthal-DNA, which was not found in Africans but anybody else, which later was debunked by other scientists in the field.
So, what are we dealing with here?
quote:Max Planck Society admits to its predecessor's Nazi links
Alison Abbott
Hubert Markl, president of the Max Planck Society (MPS), has accepted that the management and staff of its predecessor society were involved in Nazi war atrocities, and has apologized to their victims.His statement was in response to the findings of a group of science historians he commissioned in 1999 to investigate the role played by basic researchers of the Kaiser Wilhelm Society during the Second World War.
Not surprising, most all of these European and US institutions have similar histories.
That is a given and has to be taken into account.
quote:Originally posted by Narmerthoth:
As we see here and in xxyz's thread, they are described as if they are the result of natural selection, and all of the OCA stages are presented as "normal" genes. But when you review the primary Gnome research objective, Medical, they are described thusly;
An anomaly occurring at this stage is responsible for oculocutaneous albinism (OCA) types 1–4. OCAs are now considered to be diseases affecting the intracellular transport of tyrosinase rather than impaired catalytic functions of melanogenesis enzymes. Indeed, even minor mutations of TYR or TYRP1 induce the same clinical phenotype as mutations responsible for the loss of protein function. All muteins are indeed recognized as abnormal by the quality control system of the endoplasmic reticulum, and are then directed to the proteasome to be degraded [14, 15]
The above descriptions are consistent in genetic medical research, and OCA is ALWAYS described as an undesirable autosomal disease. That being true, you can deduce what the primary objective of Human Gnome medical research is; Cure/reversal.
So, the difference is clear and there is no doubt the objectives of Human Gnome medical research, which presents data more honestly, is quite different then how it is trying to be used for Anthropology, which is far less honest in it's descriptions and objectives.
For a long time I have been saying that those genes became fixed (stabilized). This is probably the "normal" transition.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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It seems these genetics reports are likely providing medical researchers with the full data while only presenting partial data to the public domain. Why? Possibly to supress future patent violation mitigation.
-------------------- Selenium gives real life and true reality Posts: 4693 | From: Saturn | Registered: Apr 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Mansamusa: It was obvious from day one that the Alt Right was a racist movement, just like the Tea Party.
Uh, that may seem "obvious" to you and others fooled or brainwashed by typical Democrat left-wing propaganda. The Tea Party was never a racist movement but merely a movement based on exactly what I described-- one based on ending government abuse and over-taxation. Although I was never an actual member I did give my moral support to those who were including a few friends of mine who happen to be non-white business owners. Are you aware even aware that due to Obama's policies more black owned business closed down or went bankrupt than under Bush?? Anwyay, I told my friends that their movement was screwed as soon as Sarah Palin began showing up as the organization's spokesperson the same way the 'alt-right' was screwed when Richard Spencer began holding rallies. That's when the movement branched off into an "alt-light" form. One problem with all these names is that they can easily be misused or mislabeled for something else. As someone who is neither "right" or "left" wing, I don't understand why there can be simply a common movement for individual rights for all.
Anyway, all this political crap which I thought would end after Trump's election has gotten worse and the point I'm making now is you have these white's-right groups hijacking scientific findings and misrepresenting them to many popular alternative media outlets. As I said, I know folks who are working to correct these fallacies and distortions put out by these white nationalists, but the problem is even if the media outlets do correct themselves they usually only do so in the written part of their sites and don't make their corrections in their actual broadcasts where it counts so the disinformation still remains disseminated.
Lioness has provided excellent examples of such disinformation.
So now the Abusir mummies are proof that Egypt was founded by "Central Europeans"??! Who is going to let Alex Jones know this mistake?? And again it's not just him. Even small time Youtubers who are popular and some of whom I watch from time to time have fallen prey to the lies.
By the way, if you guys want to discuss the Nature study on the Abusir mummies I would be glad to discuss it in its original thread here.
Posts: 26237 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Tea Party was never a racist movement? That's the first time I am reading this. From what I know the Tea Party is the far rightwing, within the Republican sector. If they want to end government abuse and over-taxation, now is more critical then ever. But not a beep.
Anyway, back to the topic. The political side of things.
I like to know what the relationship is between Max Planck and the University of Tuebingen. Especially relating to Felix von Luschan.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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The study, published in Nature Communications, found that modern Egyptians share more ancestry with Sub-Saharan Africans than ancient Egyptians did.
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